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AMD Gives ARM License a Miss, Will Stick To x86

CWmike writes "Advanced Micro Devices has shot down rumors that it is pursuing an ARM license, saying it will stick to developing chips for tablets around the x86 architecture. 'We've made a big bet on APUs, which are x86,' said John Taylor, a marketing director at AMD, referring to accelerated processing units. AMD has been criticized for a lethargic approach to entering the fast-growing tablet market, which is dominated by ARM."

47 of 67 comments (clear)

  1. Backwoods Compatible by Richard+Dick+Head · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm not buying a tablet until it can run MS-DOS and Lotus 1-2-3. Period.

    1. Re:Backwoods Compatible by MightyYar · · Score: 4, Funny

      My tablet has to run Whoosh 2.0.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    2. Re:Backwoods Compatible by the_humeister · · Score: 1

      Apparently anything running Android then. Here you go, although I haven't tried it myself. There's always cross-compiling qemu statically for ARM and then running it on your Android tablet.

    3. Re:Backwoods Compatible by NuShrike · · Score: 2
    4. Re:Backwoods Compatible by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      I bet it'll even run Desqview!

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    5. Re:Backwoods Compatible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You can run msdos - and apps like lotus 1 2 3 - on an iPhone or iPad right now with DOSPad (iOS DOSBox port).

      People have win95 running on iPads.

    6. Re:Backwoods Compatible by MDillenbeck · · Score: 1

      I'm not buying any tablet that can't run a decent virtual paint program (ArtRage/Corel Painter) and uses a wacom digitizer for pen input. After all, if I can't use a stylus and write on it like a notepad, then what good is it for me? A pad of paper and a smartphone will suit better for my purposes.

    7. Re:Backwoods Compatible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I believe Dos-box has been ported to ARM. Quemu also runs on top of ARM. Now you have no excuse.

    8. Re:Backwoods Compatible by gfody · · Score: 1

      seriously. you'd think a form factor change as dramatic as tablets and phones would be an opportunity to lose the x86 legacy cruft and innovate. netbooks were a lame fad. the only good thing coming from super low tdp x86 is multicore desktop chips. by passing on ARM AMD are basically stating they want nothing to do with the tablet and smartphone market

      --

      bite my glorious golden ass.
    9. Re:Backwoods Compatible by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      I still have the blimp.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    10. Re:Backwoods Compatible by Walt+Dismal · · Score: 2

      My name is Moses. What's all this about tablets?

    11. Re:Backwoods Compatible by m50d · · Score: 1

      My (AMD Geode-based) Vye S18 is fantastic; sounds like the touchscreen version would do what you want.

      --
      I am trolling
    12. Re:Backwoods Compatible by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Why would you say that? The new Bobcats have sub 6w power usage while giving you a dual core CPU and a Radeon IGP. With power usage that low there is no reason why one can't build an x86 tablet and I would argue if you put a decent battery instead of these "iSliver" teeny tiny things it would be a kick ass product!

      Imagine a tablet with 2Gb of RAM that would let you run your Windows programs AND games, or let you have a full blown Linux x86 in your pocket. It sounds pretty sweet to me and I'd rather have something like that where i can use whatever program I like than having to deal with some app store. Man that would be sweet, have WinAmp or MediaMonkey managing my tunes on a cell, or having Paint Shop Pro on a tablet so I could draw with a stylus or even my fingers?

      Just because nobody has bothered with ULV chips much in the past doesn't mean it can't be done. The new Bobcat chips by combining CPU+GPU can really ramp down the power usage without needing a ton of extra chips for things like 1080p video.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    13. Re:Backwoods Compatible by Chemisor · · Score: 1

      You can. Just get DosBox for Android.

    14. Re:Backwoods Compatible by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 2

      All those desktop programs are design for desktop input, so I would expect that experience to suck in so many ways. Plus with Linux, why bother with x86? You can get full Linux pretty much anywhere; that's the beauty of open source.

      --
      SSC
    15. Re:Backwoods Compatible by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      If you run Linux ... not Andriod, you can run virtualbox with dos and lotus 123. I know you were being sarcastic, but if Windows 8 runs on a tablet it, you could run office, Visual Studio, and all your pc apps with its virtual keyboard.

      That is really cool. :-)

      My complaint why I refuse to waste money on a silly tablet is that you pay all this money and just waste time surfing the net and clicking on facebook applets etc. If I can run office and use it more like a pc then a cell phone then the value is different.

      So to me unless I can do pc like stuff I simply will never buy a tablet

    16. Re:Backwoods Compatible by gfody · · Score: 2

      what you're describing is basically netbooks/slates. bobcat and atom are just slow enough to be annoying. sure you can run windows on it, but it runs like shit and you get about 5 hours battery time. meanwhile arm chips are providing a snappy experience on a fraction of the power.

      --

      bite my glorious golden ass.
  2. And so the downward spiral continues by horza · · Score: 2

    The behemoths that once lay claim to be innovators are starting to drop. I buy AMD chips over Intel for my desktop, but my next tablet will be ARM. As the next generation are pretty much standardizing on Android for the OS (though Microsoft are working hard to make their OS ARM compatible), speed and battery life are going to be two key differentiators. ARM has the clear advantage here. Of course tablet sales are only a tiny drop in the sea of revenue for a company like AMD, but it does seem short-sighted none the less.

    Phillip.

    1. Re:And so the downward spiral continues by roc97007 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Well, I don't think the behemoths were truly innovators for quite awhile. Each generation was a refinement of something that already existed, with an almost exclusive focus on Winders on conventional PCs and laptops. They're not equipped to compete in the tablet marketplace, not because the processor can't handle it, but because the tablet marketplace has already standardized on ARM. Even if, for instance, Android gets ported to x86, (I'm aware there's a project for that), or IOS surfaces on x86, (extremely unlikely) what would they run for apps? Fer cryin' out loud, even Windows Phone 7 runs on ARM.

      It's too late for x86 tablets.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    2. Re:And so the downward spiral continues by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 3, Interesting

      (though Microsoft are working hard to make their OS ARM compatible)

      Yeah, let's ignore WinMo and WinCE that have already been ARM compatible for 15 years now.

    3. Re:And so the downward spiral continues by Jenming · · Score: 1

      AMD and Intel are truly amazing innovators.
      Each time they shrink the process on those chips requires feats of engineering that are staggering. 28 nm, 20 nm soon. Thats nanometers. How cool is that?
      The computer hardware companies have done incredible things to personal computing power. Intel, AMD, Nvidia, IBM. Awesome.

      Get off my lawn.

      --
      Morpheus, God of Dreams.
    4. Re:And so the downward spiral continues by the_humeister · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why, if they were x86 Android tablets, why wouldn't they be able to run Android apps? The apps are running on top of Dalvik anyway so the processor underneath it all doesn't really matter.

    5. Re:And so the downward spiral continues by iroll · · Score: 1

      First time I've wished I had mod points in a long time, thank you.

      --
      Repetition does not transform a lie into the truth. - FDR
    6. Re:And so the downward spiral continues by jd · · Score: 1

      The article on dark silicon really makes your point for you. Think: If the current trend is towards having specialist cores, you can have both ix86 AND ARM implemented on the same chip. The Cell processor demonstrates how to do hybrid architectures, but clearly the degree of hybridization being planned in the future will be far greater. Having a chip that can do ix86 and ARM means one chip can be used in both markets, which means greater volume and therefore lower overheads for the chip company. It also means greater flexibility by the software developers, although it will seriously screw with a lot of conventions.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    7. Re:And so the downward spiral continues by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      why will you have a next tablet? why not just a laptop with detachable keyboard and all your old apps + new touch apps and a proper dock and able to decode two full hd videos at once to docked full hd screens?

      you think arm has a speed advantage? you really like to force coders do fixed point shit in 2012 ?? why do you think stuff that took a pentium 200mhz needs a 800mhz arm android?

      besides, going into arm is practically just about fabbing somebody else's designs(ask samsung).

      amd's done very, very, well from the k6 days of almost going under and being a joke in chip designs.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    8. Re:And so the downward spiral continues by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      they(x86) would run it faster, dalvik would run faster on modern x86 clock per clock, no question about it. and saying that speed doesn't matter is like saying that amiga won.

      but did they already fix the NDK(for including portions in c/native) to work over both arm and x86? i think not. SO THE PROCESSOR UNDERNEATH CURRENTLY MATTERS A GREAT DEAL. also, the friggin emulator emulates arm when doing development - and that is why it's so friggin slow.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    9. Re:And so the downward spiral continues by Tapewolf · · Score: 1

      Why, if they were x86 Android tablets, why wouldn't they be able to run Android apps? The apps are running on top of Dalvik anyway so the processor underneath it all doesn't really matter.

      I think a lot of games and things use the NDK. IIRC Android 2.3 added the ability to write entirely native games. The NDK doesn't quite seem to support x86 code generation yet, though they're working on it. Once they get that going, devs will still have to tell it to build an x86 library as well as the ARM one...

    10. Re:And so the downward spiral continues by toejam13 · · Score: 1

      An Android Java applet should be able to run on any processor that Android has been ported to, may it be ARM, x86-64 or any other proc series.

      Having said that, Java does allows you to load an external library via the System.loadLibrary() method, which could be a native binary. There are several examples on the web of how to use this for Android applets.

      I could see situations where you wanted to use native Advanced Vector Extension (AVX) ops in a program for an embedded x86-64 processor because those ops were either not supported or poorly supported by the native Java bytecode interpreter. You lose portability in exchange for performance or other efficiencies.

    11. Re:And so the downward spiral continues by Locutus · · Score: 1

      FYI, Android is not Java. if anything it supports much of the Java language syntax but it is not Java and does not run the Java virtual machine(JVM) which may be what you meant by "the native Java bytecode interpreter".

      LoB

      --
      "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
    12. Re:And so the downward spiral continues by hawk · · Score: 1

      That's a good *first* step.

      Then we move on to ignoring Windows 7, XP, NT . . .

  3. Backwards compatible indeed. by unity100 · · Score: 1

    Indeed, i dont give a fuck about arm. i have endless supply of software, games and other shit i may need to run on a tablet. until tablets can provide backwards compatibility to provide for that, gtfo. im not paying $400 for something that only presents a 10 inch screen to watch videos on youtube and make facebook updates or use half assed simple widgets. my phone can do these.

    1. Re:Backwards compatible indeed. by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      Indeed, i dont give a fuck about arm. i have endless supply of software, games and other shit i may need to run on a tablet. until tablets can provide backwards compatibility to provide for that, gtfo. im not paying $400 for something that only presents a 10 inch screen to watch videos on youtube and make facebook updates or use half assed simple widgets. my phone can do these.

      Let me introduce you to a *new* cross platform programming language that compiles down to binary for all current platforms...

      Introducing: C

      That's right folks -- Application logic can now be written in a machine independent language without using a virtual machine!

      You see -- All of the software I need to run is open source, thus it runs on any architecture. I don't give a fuck about closed source apps. If I relied on a significant "supply of software, games and other shit" that was closed source, I would either be relying on the hardware it was compiled for to always exist, or for all future hardware to support the current lame (by future standards) binary interface, and for the company that produces the software to remain in business for my life-time.

      Hint: Your current x86 apps will have to be re-complied to run on whatever x86 tablet architecture AMD goes with unless you install the same os you use on your desktop on the tablet... that's a whole other ball of lock-in wax...

      This is the REAL win FOSS has over closed source: I could give a fuck less about "sharing" and "community", I want to upgrade when I fucking want to, and I want to be capable of running my current applications on new / different hardware than what I've got right now.

      I don't give a shit about BACKWARDS compatibility... Until closed source code can provide native FORWARDS compatibility to all future uninvented CPU hardware without running in an interpretor (slow ass software VM or CPU level microcode bullshit), GTFO. I'm not paying even $1 for something that has an artificially limited life expectancy just for the sake of obfuscating how it works... (All of the closed source DRM is hacked shortly after release -- security via obscurity, 'nuff said)

      The software I need runs on any architecture I will ever purchase -- If this is ever not the case, I'll learn the new hardware and write the bloody C compiler myself.

  4. so wait a minute... by roc97007 · · Score: 1

    What would an AMD tablet run? Surely they don't think they're going to sell a lot of tablets running Windows 7? What truly mature, tablet-ready OS runs on Intel? (And I'm not talking about Parsimonious Palembang or some other future Ubuntu release -- what's available in, say, June?)

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:so wait a minute... by TheEyes · · Score: 1

      What would an AMD tablet run? Surely they don't think they're going to sell a lot of tablets running Windows 7? What truly mature, tablet-ready OS runs on Intel? (And I'm not talking about Parsimonious Palembang or some other future Ubuntu release -- what's available in, say, June?)

      Well, it might run Android...

    2. Re:so wait a minute... by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Yes, I'm aware of that project, but what apps would it run? Even java apps would need some tweaking, I suspect.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    3. Re:so wait a minute... by TheEyes · · Score: 1

      Yes, I'm aware of that project, but what apps would it run? Even java apps would need some tweaking, I suspect.

      Most Android apps are run on the Dalvik VM; the only ones that aren't have been compiled to native code, and those from my understanding already need to be ported from machine to machine (to take advantage of the different GPUs) as it is

    4. Re:so wait a minute... by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Windows 8 is supposed to be tablet friendly. Microsoft even demod Windows 8 alpha on an ARM!

      AMD is betting people will buy x86 tablets running Windows so they can run legacy and proprietary win32 apps like office and games. That is very very important for people like myself and others who will not waste $499 for a tablet that can just browse the web and run facebook applets etc. I have a phone when I need portability with communication.

      Even x86 on a linux tablet is superior in the sense that I can run Java apps like eclipse with full gui acceleration with gnome-shell. Sure Andriod is out there and Linux on arm can't do 3d or run java desktop apps. Only JavaME apps.

      I feel gnome-shell is a horrible atrocity and prefer the ribbon UI even. But for a small tablet it is perfect. I wish gnome 3 included 2 guis. A shell one for tablet and a desktop one.

    5. Re:so wait a minute... by jvillain · · Score: 1

      I would only be interested if it ran Moblin.

    6. Re:so wait a minute... by lucian1900 · · Score: 1

      You're wrong about ARM Linux. I have an ARM netbook and it has a reasonably fast OpenGL ES 1.0 & 2.0 implementation and it runs Eclipse just fine. Note that mine is a *netbook*. If full-blown ARM laptops were made, they'd have fast OpenGL.

  5. Not a Surprise by TheEyes · · Score: 3, Informative

    This should come as no surprise to anyone who's been paying attention to AMD. AMD has already bet on x86-64 scaling down to tablet form factors; that is, after all, the entire point of the Bobcat architecture. Later this year when Bobcat transitions to 28 nm we'll see if it pans out; even if it doesn't there's always the 20nm transition in late 2012, and that's sure to lower power requirements enough to make an x86 tablet viable.

    At the same time, it's obvious that there really isn't any room in the ARM SoC market for new entrants*. NVIDIA is already selling Tegra 2 SoCs for a cut-rate $25 a chip, and those are going into already too expensive Android tablets. The message is clear: the only way to make a profit with ARM chips is in volume, and there's no way a new entrant like AMD is going to ramp to significant volume to even cover production and R&D costs before their own Bobcat architecture has made the transition to 28-20nm and they're basically competing with themselves.

    *- Yes, I know AMD wouldn't be entirely a new entrant, as they had an ARM license as recently as a few years ago, which they subsequently sold off, but by this point they'd essentially be new entrants all over again

    1. Re:Not a Surprise by inglorion_on_the_net · · Score: 1

      AMD has already bet on x86-64 scaling down to tablet form factors

      That may actually pay off. Tablets aren't that far from the point where 32-bit address space becomes a serious limitation, and 64-bit ARM cores are only just on the horizon as far as I know. ARM is coming in from the low-power end and ramping up the performance, and AMD is coming from the high-performance end and cutting the power consumption. Both will benefit from miniaturization. Eventually, I could see them go head-to-head in the mobile multimedia computer race. Of course, Intel will have some tricks up its sleeve, too.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    2. Re:Not a Surprise by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      That is exactly it.

      But it should be noted that these mobile CPU's are also heading towards more power, not less.

      At some point batteries will be so good that power needs become trivial beyond the "how much does it cost to charge it?" question, which isnt a question anybody is currently asking (people only ask "how long will a charge last?") So in the end it will be all about performance.

      Intel has a problem in that its sort of the middle-solution in his space. Atom's arent low enough in power draw to compete with ARM's, they cannot offer the graphics performance of the AMD Bobcats or nVidia's ARM solutions, and they also can't compete with anyone on price in the mobile space now. The effects of Bobcat will take about a year to really sink into the market, as nobody choosing x86 for their new product will be considering Atom unless there is some sort of backroom bribe/kickback involved.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    3. Re:Not a Surprise by jvillain · · Score: 1

      I could be very wrong. But doesn't AMD already get a piece of the ARM action as every one includes a video chip with their ARM tablet/phone and a good chunk of those are AMD. Set me straight if I am wrong.

  6. Re:Trelane has died by roc97007 · · Score: 2

    ...so, instead of whining about it in a completely unrelated thread, why didn't you submit this as a news item?

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  7. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  8. Native libraries by gilesjuk · · Score: 1

    Some apps call native library code due to the performance of compiled interpreted code being poorer than native.

    These will be compiled for the target device.

  9. Limited needs by sjbe · · Score: 2

    You see -- All of the software I need to run is open source, thus it runs on any architecture.

    Good for you. Seriously. Good for you. I'm not being the slightest bit sarcastic either. I wish that were the case for more people.

    Unfortunately that also tells us some things about what YOUR needs are not. Clearly you aren't a heavy duty CAD user, you aren't an accountant, odds are you aren't a graphics professional (Photoshop), you don't use MRP or ERP either and I could go on. I also very much doubt that all of the hardware you use is open source only. (While possible to do in theory, open source only hardware is very restricting.) Open source is great but there are some types of applications for which the closed source versions remain clearly superior and probably will for the foreseeable future. There is no open source 3D solid modeling software comparable to CATIA or ProE. Hell there isn't a 2D open source CAD package that even matches AutoCAD. There is no open source accounting software comparable even to QuickBooks much less some of the enterprise level accounting software. I use GIMP all the time but there is no open source replacement for Photoshop if you are a graphics professional. There are tons of additional examples. Open source simply isn't the best choice available right now for some software needs. I hope that changes but I'm not holding my breath.

    If your needs are fully satisfied by open source software, that is really terrific, but it doesn't describe a huge percentage of the rest of us. I literally could not do my job using only open source software. I use as much as I can but it simply does not exist for some of my needs. (predominantly manufacturing and accounting)