Crowdsourcing Radiation Monitoring In Japan

fysdt writes "A new open- and crowdsourced initiative to deploy more geiger counters all over Japan looks to be a go. Safecast, formerly RDTN.org, recently met and exceeded its $33,000 fund-raising goal on Kickstarter, which should help Safecast send between 100 and 600 geiger counters to the catastrophe-struck country. The data captured from the geiger counters will be fed into Safecast.org, which aggregates radiation readings from government, nonprofit, and other sources, as well as into Pachube, a global open-source network of sensors."

Comments

There are better ways to spend your money

[YA_Python_dev]

We're talking about their money and of course it's their choice how to spend it, but everyone please remember that the "catastrophe-struck country" is the fourth richest country in the world (even the third one, if we count individual EU states separately).

They don't need money, much less having stuff physically delivered there. If you really want hundreds of Geiger counters in Japan, don't buy them in the US and have them delivered to Japan, just send the money there and buy the thingy things directly in Japan (hint: they're probably manufactured in China anyway, think about the two alternatives on a world map).

And to the people that donated to this cause: that's your money but I assure you that there are way better ways to donate it. Like letting people that are actually experts on the subject decide which part(s) of the world need it more at any given time.

Re:There are better ways to spend your money

[YA_Python_dev]

Huh? Aren't they the second richest country in the world?

No. The EU, the US and China all have a higher GDP than Japan, according to all the commonly used sources. You can start with a list of countries by GDP or the same list using PPP GDP if you prefer.

Great...

[fullback]

except Google Earth had a network sites for monitoring set up throughout Japan within a few days of the Fukushima news - government sites, university sites, private companies with monitoring, individuals with geiger counters. This site is near my house: http://www.aist.go.jp/aist_e/taisaku/en/measurement/index.html

The radiation in Tokyo is less than the radiation in New York, so many places have stopped monitoring continuously now. According to most of the press, we should have been dead by now...

Problematic data

[Anonymous Coward]

Measuring radiation correctly is an expert task ! Without knowing the origin of the radiation, it's type and energy, the use of Geiger Counter is pretty much useless. One can get random numbers by using the wrong apparatus on the wrong radiation. In some case, the Geiger counter will over-react on the wrong radiation (e.g. x-rays), other radiation (e.g alphas) will not even enter the device. By having thousand of non-specialist running around with Geiger Counters, you will collect mainly garbage. But apparently that's what everyone (especially governments) want to do today. Collect data. Store it. Use it. Even if wrong.

Re:Problematic data

[drinkypoo]

You are making the wrong, stupid, bullshit complaints.

If the radiation detector is built with the proper non-removable shield then they will only be able to measure useful types of radiation. But more seriously, they need to clean the probe, they need to take into account standing radiation sources.

Masses of asses COULD collect this data with no training, but it would take a more advanced counter which gave directions similar to an AED, and which had a GPS and an accelerometer in it so you can tell if it's being used correctly. And it would require a supply of plastic baggies for covering the probe, which could be changed weekly.

On the other hand, we are talking about the Japanese, here. These are people who are capable of washing and separating their recyclables. Perhaps with some minimal training they could do a very good job of gathering this information.

What this made ME think was that we need to do this in the USA, since The EPA will no longer conduct Fukushima-related radiation monitoring. They have literally shut down updates on the radiation monitoring pages so that you cannot tell how much fallout you're sucking down here in the USA. Germany just reported a spike. France has already recommended that its people not eat certain foods due to fallout.

It's hard not to get that creepy feeling in your stomach at times like this...

Re:Problematic data

[Wdi]

Why are posts of people demonstrably without knowledge rated "insightful" ?

"If the radiation detector is built with the proper non-removable shield then they will only be able to measure useful types of radiation"

Sorry, but such a shielding does not exist (in handheld devices, if you are willing to literally invest in a ton of electromagnets, this is a different matter).

In order to measure alpha particles, there must be the smallest possible amount of matter between the outside world and the detector. Your naive proposal in a post below to wrap the counter into a plastic bag which is swapped regularly to keep things clean results effectively in a 100% alpha radiation shield around your detector.

The problem is that alpha radiation from inhaled aerosol particles is the most dangerous component of what a broken reactor emits, and thus this it what really needs to be determined. If the radiation is blocked by a plastic bag, or dead outer skin cells, it is pretty harmless. But if you inhale, or eat, an alpha emitter and it makes a cell in your lung or stomach lining go cancerous, this is a very different matter.

So you want to shield the counter, and only measure beta and gamma, you are making the data even more useless than original (see my explanation before). Not what I call an "insightful" post.

Is the EU a country?

[YA_Python_dev]

Just as a curiosity, why _wouldn't_ you count individual EU states separately? EU states are actual countries, you know?

That's certainly true but AFAICT the EU itself is also in the process of slowly becoming a country (arguably it already is, since December 1, 2009 when it acquired international legal personality independent of its member states). The power within it has been for decades constantly moved from inter-government negotiations between the individual members to EU-wide shared institutions (e.g. the European Commission and the Parliament).

A really, really bad idea (seriously!)

[Wdi]

Measuring radiation is not as simple as measuring a temperature (and even that is something nobody wants to entrust an amateur with for the purpose of weather forecasts, etc.).

Depending on sample geometry, distance to sample, even atmospheric conditions for alpha/beta radiation, not to forget cleanliness of the counter, measurements can easily be different by a factor of 1000 or more (!) if you just hand a counter to a lay person and ask him/her to determine some radiation level out in the nature.

Without calibration, test sample verification, standard equipment, and very precise instructions on sample preparation and measurement conditions, the collected data is absolutely worthless.

Re:A really, really bad idea (seriously!)

[freaklabs]

Actually we're working with health physicists that were at Three Mile Island and geiger manufacturers. We also have two gamma spectrometers that we're using to identify isotopes and we're putting together data templates so that people who upload data can also mention the tube, conversion factor, CPM, orientation, etc. We're also collaborating with local universities who are also helping us collect data and will be using it in their research.

Re:A really, really bad idea (seriously!)

[Wdi]

Using curse words does not prove any competence.

I do actually have radiochemistry training, and your arguments show that you do not have any significant domain expertise at all. But this has never stopped anybody from posting, or insulting people, has it?

Hand-held Geiger counters, as shown on the picture in the article, and this is what I presume will be distributed, are only useful for very limited scenarios, such as
a) It's ticking, I should not go any deeper into this reactor housing/nuclear explosion ground
b) It's ticking. I spilled something on the lab bench/I stepped into something and should decontaminate.
c) Measure something really well mixed, like Radon gas in basements, or clean analytical solutions (*not* anything from ponds or puddles, the radioactive isotopes are generally adsorbed to colloidal matter in these samples, and that brings all kinds of problems). For the latter, use a well-defined sample volume and measurement geometry for reproducible readings.

As for the diluted fallout from a reactor, that is very, very different from those scenarios. We are mostly talking about solid aerosol particles, in deposited form or drifting with the wind, which are very unevenly distributed, tend to accumulate in unexpected places, and generally stick to matter.

So this is NOT
- atmospheric monitoring. Radon or other well-distributed radioactive gases are a very minor factor
- fixed and standardized geometry. The picture in the article shows somebody pointing a counter to the ground. This may or may not a location where the average concentration has been enhanced or diluted. And with gamma rays, the normal square distance law applies, so minimal distance variations have a large effect. For alpha and beta, the distance law has an even higher power, because the particles collide with air molecules, or water droplets in the air.
- Cleanliness is a very major factor, and not just for the case of somebody sticking a counter into a puddle. If you just put a counter onto a mast, a radioactive aerosol particle may or may not deposit on the surface of the counter - and then stick. If it sticks, it will overpower any other radiation background, just because it is so much closer to the counter, and give much exaggerated readings. If nothing happens to fall on the counter, it will underestimate the dangers- if a radioactive alpha or beta particle is drifting by within just a few centimeters, hardly anything will register because of the very limited range of this type of radiation. Air-borne aerosol contamination can only be measured reliably by sucking large, measured amounts of air through a well-defined filter, and then measuring the radiation of the filter. Simple hand-held devices are completely useless for this purpose, even if they are dusted of weekly.
- In any case, the most important task will likely be to identify hot spots *on the ground, or in water*, where major aerosol deposits have accumulated, probably aided by solution/evaporation processes, and then treat these, before they get airborne again.

This is a better way to spend your money

[Idou]

I agree that Japan's problem is not lack of money. However, Japan does have a serious problem in regards to appropriate allocation of resources in response to recent events, specifically when it comes to transparent measurement data of radiation (which is not unique to Japan). So, if you wanted to donate to Japan, this was a good way to do it.

Personally, though, I see this developing into something like the fon network, with global participation only requiring you buy a compatible device. In times like these, I think spending money to participate in such a network (regardless of where you live) would be a very good way to spend your money.

Re:Seems like the problem is the solution.

[Alex Belits]

A person who is only allowed to work on his lord/employer's land would qualify as a villein even if his intentions are pure.