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Australian Tax Office Seeks Keylogger To Combat RSI

schliz writes "The Australian Tax Office plans to track employees' keystrokes and mouse clicks in attempts to address the growing incidence of repetitive strain injuries (RSI) among staff. It hopes to purchase commercial, off-the-shelf 'pause or exercise break software' that delivers safety messages to users, while determining 'more information about the nature of computing use in the workplace.'"

32 of 138 comments (clear)

  1. Keystroke counter != Keylogger by Billlagr · · Score: 5, Informative
    Umm...no. Nothing to see here, move along. From TFA -

    use of the proposed software would be voluntary and intended only to count keystrokes and mouse clicks rather than the content of the work being completed

    1. Re:Keystroke counter != Keylogger by Fluffeh · · Score: 2

      But the most important thing about RSI is the WAY you make those keystrokes and mouse clicks. It's not how many of them you do, it is how your hands/wrists are kept when making them.

      Wrists off table is BAD. It's that simple.

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    2. Re:Keystroke counter != Keylogger by fractoid · · Score: 2

      I dunno, that phrase "while determining 'more information about the nature of computing use in the workplace.'" seems pretty indicative that they plan on doing some higher-level processing. Even if the actual words you type aren't logged, I bet this will eventually end up being used to detect people slacking off, web browsing or IM'ing.

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    3. Re:Keystroke counter != Keylogger by pspahn · · Score: 2

      And according to /. popular opinion, they are.

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      Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
    4. Re:Keystroke counter != Keylogger by Cato · · Score: 2

      > Wrists off table is BAD. It's that simple.

      Absolute rubbish. Typical ergonomic advice is to keep your wrists at a natural angle, whereas keeping your wrists on the table forces the hand to be bent somewhat backward. Something like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/onekell/2570138754/

      There's debate about whether wrist pads that support the wrist are a good or a bad thing.

      To get some accurate information, see this FAQ: http://www.rsiprevention.com/rsi_faq.php

      It's not just posture in any case - total hours worked per day, taking breaks away from the keyboard, and stress management are also very important.

    5. Re:Keystroke counter != Keylogger by HungryHobo · · Score: 2

      I've come to the conclusion that a fair portion of the crap sold as "ergonomic" is a scam.

      Last big company I worked for was big into it and some of the equipment was good but some shyster salesman got them to buy a large quantity of very expensive "ergonomic" keyboards for when people are in meetings with their laptops.

      They were laptop keyboards, same layout, same shape.
      People would have been better off unplugging their full sized keyboards from their desks and bringing them with them.

      I was also sorely(litterally) disappointed with the "ergonomic" chair. After a couple of months sitting in it my back was hurting: it was all properly adjusted, it was just crap. quietly switched back to a normal non-ergonomic cheap chair when the boss wasn't around and my back went back to normal.

      It makes me wonder if perhaps the companies selling "ergonomic" equipment have some kind of incentive to make sure that ergonomics becomes a serious issue in their clients workplaces.

    6. Re:Keystroke counter != Keylogger by mjwx · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Umm...no. Nothing to see here, move along. From TFA -

      use of the proposed software would be voluntary and intended only to count keystrokes and mouse clicks rather than the content of the work being completed

      Not surprising.

      If the ATO is already monitoring its workers to the nth degree, why would they be announcing more monitoring.

      I once did some work for the ATO, you need a background check to enter the building, police clearance to walk around unescorted, you are told up front everything you do and say is recorded, a joke can land you in court, you can be charged if you casually read something off someone's desk. You have to check in and check out with security. No photos, there are area's where you're not even permitted to carry your phone at all.

      I dont believe in the slash-conspiracy that the gubbermit is bad and evil, all this security is necessary, the ATO has the largest database of the personal details of Australians, from car purchases to monthly pay stubs and there are corporations that would kill for that kind of data, the ATO's mandate is to keep it safe.

      So I fully believe that this would be for OH&S (Occupational Health and Safety) because 1. Australian Government departments are very big on OH&S and 2. If the ATO is not already monitoring their own computers to a paranoid degree, they're doing it wrong.

      --
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  2. The obvious man behind the curtain! by Dutchmaan · · Score: 5, Funny

    In related news, the Australian government will be placing monitoring devices inside phones to monitor decibel levels and signal quality.

  3. Nothing to do with clicks! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Repetitive stress injury how little to do with actual clicks. It has everything to do with the way people hold their hands over the keyboards and mice.

    If you have to lift your hand from the desk or wrist rest, then you are doing it wrong. It's that simple.

    1. Re:Nothing to do with clicks! by Compaqt · · Score: 2

      Weirdly, when I tried to type the "right way", the way that typing teachers teach you to type (with your wrists held up in the air), I got RSI, and it hurt.

      When I do it the wrong way, with the palms/wrists resting on the wristrest, it's great, and I've not had a problem. I curve my back, scrunch up, put my feet on a footrest (or not), and it's all good.

      But when I'm hurting, there's almost nothing I can do to not make it hurt.

      I've come to the conclusion that general bodily health is the most important factor in whether you experience RSI or not.

      --
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    2. Re:Nothing to do with clicks! by fractoid · · Score: 2

      I've always countered the "you should aim for perfect Victorian posture" line with "when did you ever see a monkey sit up straight?"

      I agree that keeping generally fit and typing in the manner you find most comfortable (ie. the way in which you feel least strain) is the way to go. I've only ever had RSI problems when I was (a) stressed out and not exercising, and (b) unconsciously tensing up my mousing hand. When I addressed those two factors I went back to being able to use a computer for 12+ hours a day with no issues.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    3. Re:Nothing to do with clicks! by dakameleon · · Score: 2

      Not saying that the posture people are right, but when did you ever see a monkey live to 80? Some of the posture suggestions are sensible, though of course there's no need to be rigid all day.

      --
      Man who leaps off cliff jumps to conclusion.
    4. Re:Nothing to do with clicks! by blackest_k · · Score: 3, Informative

      But when I'm hurting, there's almost nothing I can do to not make it hurt.

      May I recommend a cod liver oil or Omega 3 capsule a day. While I can offer no scientific evidence other than it works for me. My Doctor diagnosed me with carpal tunnel and my fingers were in a terrible state (playing a guitar became impossible since i couldn't hold a chord without severe pain). I decided to take the capsules to help my over all level of health (and they were cheap enough to buy) I already was taking a bunch of other meds due to diabetes and a heart attack so one more thing to take was no big deal.

      The results were unexpected but my physical symptoms disappeared of course when i got to the end of the bottle I stopped and within 2 weeks the pain returned. I restarted and have had very little trouble since.
      I've been taking 1 a day now for around 2 years now. It seems to work for other people I know as well.

      Nothing to lose by trying it for a month and seeing if it improves things. Has anyone else any experience with cod liver oil / omega 3 giving relief or not ?

  4. Is this still... by Fjodor42 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ...a built in, ready to activate, feature of GNOME?

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  5. RSIGuard by peterofoz · · Score: 3, Informative

    This one seems ok. We use it at work also. http://www.rsiguard.com/

    1. Re:RSIGuard by dr_dex · · Score: 3, Informative

      Or use the free WorkRave program for Windows. You can find it at workrave.org. I must admit that at times I find these RSI-prevention programs a bit annoying, but it is when they actually tell you to stop that you need it the most (to avoid RSI).

      --
      Robin Smidsrod Certified Linux Administrator
  6. They do this every few years by Lord_of_the_nerf · · Score: 3, Interesting

    A number of Australian government departments toyed with a program called 'Workpace' (made in the Netherlands I believe). I fondly recall a pop-up window telling me to exercise my fingers by employing something that looked remarkably like the shocker.

    In the end, it was just an annoyance. It doesn't take a program to tell you your staff need more frequent breaks, better equipment and better OHS reporting.

    1. Re:They do this every few years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah but this is the management way of sorting the problem

      Spend money, get statistics, show a markable improvement.

      The alternative might be cheaper and make more common sense but it isn't trackable and suffers from wing-creep

  7. A Sickie by bloodhawk · · Score: 2

    RSI for a large amount of people is little more than the modern day equivalent of a sickie. You would have better luck nailing down the root cause by monitoring pubs and and sporting events to find where the days out correspond.

    1. Re:A Sickie by Lord_of_the_nerf · · Score: 2

      I personally only know of 3 people that have taken leave for RSI, incidently none of them strictly speaking should have gotten it. One was actually an injury caused from indoor cricket, another was from motorbike injury and the last was because he stays up all night playing computer games. Now I am sure my anecdotal evidence is hardly condemming but if you think that people faking it or lieing about their injury is the exception rather than the rule then you are living in a fairy land.

      You are correct. Your anecdotal evidence is worth nothing.

      Claiming Worksafe compensation in Australia is quite difficult for an average worker. Once they (Worksafe) are convinced there's a problem from reading your claim, the business has a 38 days to basically respond to it (I've personally never seen a business respond immediately, but to be fair I'll count my anecdotal evidence as worthy as yours). During this time, the claiment is probably not getting paid. After all this, their workplace is probably disputing it, stretching it out so that you can no longer financially support your action (days, years).

      All this for not incredible amounts of money that someone could claim just as easily on the dole (the difference being that they had to convince a medical professional to lie and risk their reputation rather than convince a potential employer they were looking for employment). Yah. Great scam.

  8. Easy solution by Quick+Reply · · Score: 2

    Just stop playing Mafia Wars and Farmville.

  9. Workrave by Compaqt · · Score: 5, Informative

    Works great.

    It's available for Win and Lin.

    You can set times for mini-breaks and full breaks separately. Full breaks lead you through a configurable series of animated exercises.

    I can vouch that they really do work if you do them diligently.

    It allows you to (configurably) cancel or postpone a break, but it's geared toward locking the screen so you you're less tempted to skip breaks. You can even set a max time on the computer per day plus log work/breaks on the network.

    Click here to install in Debian/Ubuntu/Mint

    --
    I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
  10. Body Insight by jrozzi · · Score: 3, Informative

    There are companies who focus on these kind of things and can help individuals who work on computers with training exercises and other ways to prevent RSI, back and neck pain, knee pain, etc. I have gotten a lot of help from Body Insight. They also suggest the use of RSIGuard.

  11. Re:RSI or... by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 2

    Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski loves his work passionately and lives in pain from carpal tunnel syndrome.

  12. easy answer by pbjones · · Score: 2

    buy better keyboards and mice, instead of those cheap crappy ones.

    --
    There was an unknown error in the submission.
  13. And it won't help... by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 4, Informative

    Keystroke and mouse movement information won't help. The information you need is "What hand/forearm position are the typists using?", and software can't record that.

    To quote my typing teacher, "*smack* Wrists UP!".

    NB: proper typing position has the forearms parallel to floor, back of hand flat relative to top of forearm. Raise or lose the seat to achieve this. Fingers should dangle onto the keys, if the first fingerbone is horizontal your seat is too low and needs raised slightly.

    1. Re:And it won't help... by Cato · · Score: 2

      It's not just posture, it's also hours worked per day, timing/duration of breaks, etc. I know someone who worked 36 hours solid at the end of a project with 16 hour days for weeks, and got RSI quite badly. The posture was only one factor there.

  14. Re:RSI or... by thegarbz · · Score: 5, Informative

    RSI is not a bandwagon, it's not something you can use to get a day off. Quite simply because it's not an issue that appears and disappears overnight, it's a long term problem. My girlfriend really loves her job at a bakery, but after years of preparing the icing on donuts she now can't make that movement without physical pain. Other movements are fine, and she still beats me at tennis, but that specific wave of the hand that is repeated over and over again when icing a tray of donuts is completely out of the question. She is slowly recovery now. She has been banned from icing for the last 12 months and is moving onto other activities.

    I like my job too yet quite frequently I'll spend all day typing some crap long-winded report. I don't want to do that in pain down the line. But I likely won't have that problem. My office is assessed frequently by ergonomic specialists. Last time round they got me a bigger monitor for no other reason than every so often I cram too much stuff on the screen and lean forward slightly. But then I also have back problems too.

    Ergonomics is a serious issue. Treat it like one.

  15. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  16. Re:A cynical citizens natural response by marcello_dl · · Score: 2

    You assume they look for keywords but the most likely and doable thing is monitoring employees' activity.
    (keystrokes + mouse clicks)/hour * ratio of work-related websites visited = "productivity"
    It has begun.

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  17. apt-get install rsibreak by RichiH · · Score: 2

    Also, get a Microsoft Natural Keyboard 4000.

  18. Re:They're asking for a fair bit of trust here. by TapeCutter · · Score: 2

    The GST never had, nor was it supposed to have, any restrictions on what it was used for. It simply replaced all the incomprehensible state sales taxes rules and rates with one federal flat rate sales tax which is then divied up and given back to the states who dump it into consolidated revenue, which is exactly the same as they did with revenue from sales taxes before GST. From both a business and consumer perspective it is a simple and transparent one size fits all system, for the taxpayer it saves money by removing multiple overlapping layers of opaque goverment beuracracy that existed under the previous state based systems.

    Perhaps you're not old enough to remeber the complexity of complying with the old systems, or maybe you are just conviently forgetting the rampant corruption under the old systems where they were regularly used by state governments to legally bash companies in other states in order to give their local business mates a competetive edge.

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