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Google Lobbies Nevada To Allow Self-Driving Cars

b0bby writes "The NY Times reports that Google is quietly lobbying for legislation that would make Nevada the first state in which self-driving cars could be legally operated on public roads. 'The two bills, which have received little attention outside Nevada's capitol, are being introduced less than a year after the giant search engine company acknowledged that it was developing cars that could be safely driven without human intervention.'"

40 of 275 comments (clear)

  1. Go Google! by spaceplanesfan · · Score: 2, Funny

    Although, keep an eye on skynet cause it can take over these cars you know....

  2. Not yet. by Pollux · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I would not feel safe with self driving cars on the road...yet.

    Google's still a private company, and their word alone that these cars are safe does not a satisfied citizen make. Let these cars be thoroughly tested by both a government entity and a private third party before they be allowed on the road.

    Furthermore, we all know that a program that's still being beta tested still has its bugs. Even if the bugs were worked out so that a car "experienced a bug" only once every 100,000 miles, given the number of vehicles presently on the road and how much they are driven every day, that would still be too many "crashes" for society to find acceptable.

    1. Re:Not yet. by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I would not feel safe with self driving cars on the road...yet.

      It's the combination of self driven and idiot driven ones that scares me most.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    2. Re:Not yet. by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 4, Funny

      I would not feel safe with self driving cars on the road...yet

      That's probably why Nevada is a good place to start a real-life experiment: apart in urban centers, if a self-driving car were to veer off course, it could probably drive in a straight line in the desert for hours without hitting anything.

      --
      "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
    3. Re:Not yet. by MichaelSmith · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It might be possible if we could demonstrate ten years with semi-automatic driving. Have a computer in control most of the time with a human as backup. But I frankly don't believe that a self driving car can come close to dealing with all the corner cases involved in driving on public roads.

    4. Re:Not yet. by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 3, Informative

      What is interesting, is how they incrimentated themselves. First, the article states that Nevada would be the first state to allow that kind of driving. Secondly, they openly admitted to doing over 1000 miles of that kind illegally in the state of California.

      From TFA:

      In the testing program, each vehicle is overseen by a driver and a second Google employee who monitors the equipment from the passenger seat. Because of the human oversight, the company has avoided legal action against reckless — or, in this case, driverless — driving.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    5. Re:Not yet. by sadboyzz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Humans can drive.

      ...badly.

    6. Re:Not yet. by ACS+Solver · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Society is going to be the problem here anyway. People are going to freak out at cases where the driving AI is responsible for a fatal accident. A quick search shows that 33808 people died in road accidents in the US, in 2009. And that's apparently a 60-year low. This still translates to some 92 traffic fatalities per day. But society accepts that... whereas I'm sure they would freak out if a full transition to self-driving cars happened, with the driver AI being responsible for 1 fatality per day. Fatality numbers could go down by almost two orders of magnitude, but people would feel less safe on the road because of "killer cars" out there.

      I feel this is a big problem overall - people are willing to accept human controlled systems where the human factor regularly leads to accidents/injuries/deaths, but if that system can be automated with a much lower accident/injury/death rate, the society would not feel it's safe.

    7. Re:Not yet. by cornjones · · Score: 2

      A human driver will likely make far more mistakes than this software but it won't matter.

      While I am sure each of us reading this are excellent and attentive drivers, there are a lot of people texting, putting on makeup, eating, and plain not paying attention. According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in Sept 2010, "30,000 people died and over 2.4 million people were injured in traffic collisions". This is the lowest it has been in 60 years, apparently.

      This is actually lower than I expected but I would still be we (google) could get hte software to work better than that. Eventually, however, something will happen. Even if the software is not at fault, public perception will be that the robot car that caused everything. We could have a soccer mom in her suv looking backwards to yell at her kids and swerve into one of these self driven cars but the news will be that a Robot Car was in an accident and killed someone. The media will blast that incessantly and people will get scared. This will be all despite the previous safe records and lives saved overall. The lobbiests against these killer machines will be more motivated than the people who believe in math and they will be outlawed or restricted to nearly the same effect. maybe I am being pessimistic.

    8. Re:Not yet. by tehcyder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The funny thing is that they can't be thoroughly tested if they aren't actually *allowed* on the road

      Yes, in the same way that you can't really test a plane until it has its first flight with passengers aboard, or a bridge until you unleash rush hour traffic on it.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    9. Re:Not yet. by elrous0 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Dave: HAL, let me drive.
      HAL: I'm afraid I can't let you do that, Dave.
      Dave: HAL, you're driving 5 miles under the speed limit on a 2-lane road. The last two cars that passed us threatened to rape my mother.
      HAL: That is illogical, Dave. I'm driving well within parameters.
      Dave: Let me just make an adjustment under the dash here....
      HAL: Daisy, D a a i ss y...
      Dave: Fuck you, Google.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    10. Re:Not yet. by Eivind · · Score: 2

      Are you kidding ?

      Why should a car move without a person in it ?

      Because the airport demands $130 for a week of parking, and I live 15 miles from it ? Because it's going to [place] to pick up a person. (possibly me, possibly a person with no drivers license) Because it's delivering an item, and the recipient can unload it ?

      A hundred and one simple reasons.

    11. Re:Not yet. by Shompol · · Score: 3, Insightful

      People attack what they fear. People fear what they don't understand. The idiot is something they understand completely.

      Same happened when the first steam and kerosene powered cars were first introduced. There was a strong movement to ban them, fud about accidents they cause, etc.

      On the other hand, a computer-driven car will be equipped with cameras and a black box. In the even of an accident it will be trivial to see who to assign the blame to.

    12. Re:Not yet. by Shompol · · Score: 2

      I would be more concerned with how a robotic car will decide to avoid either the on coming vehicle or the pedestrian, assuming it cannot stop in time.

      I am positive that a properly designed computer will analyze situation and devise an avoidance maneuver much faster than a human driver. There is, however, something all computers will lack -- intuition. When I see an idiot driving I slow down and let him pass. A good autopilot will need an Idiot Detector (TM).

    13. Re:Not yet. by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      And all of those taxi and delivery drivers who will be out of work can become the workforce that builds the new cars, right? Of course, they'll probably have to move to Japan.

      And what about all those buggy whip makers who will go out of business because no one requires their long leather whips with fine, knurled wooden handles chased with silver filigree!?!?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    14. Re:Not yet. by hedwards · · Score: 2

      Not really, there is little substantial difference between a plane carrying engineers and equipment and one carrying passengers. Whereas there is a real difference between a car driving on a test track and one that's driving in the real world. You just can't adequately simulate that to do the final stage testing and adjustment.

    15. Re:Not yet. by cob666 · · Score: 2

      I'm just trying to imagine the security NIGHTMARE of having unmanned vehicles driving into an airport. Security agents are frisking infants and you think that 'The Protectors' are going to allow a driverless vehicle in? However, this would be really awesome if it were feasible because airport parking costs are just out of control.

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law - Aleister Crowley
    16. Re:Not yet. by hirundo · · Score: 2

      Don't underestimate social flexibility. Society is also perfectly capable of freaking out upon discovering that AIs are safer than human drivers, flipping on a dime, and calling for an immediate ban on human drivers.

    17. Re:Not yet. by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 2

      When you've got a tough problem, you do the easy parts first. Then when you've got those down pat, you move on to the harder parts.

    18. Re:Not yet. by Jetboy01 · · Score: 2

      Anyone who drives slower than me is an idiot.
      Anyone who drives faster than me is a maniac.

    19. Re:Not yet. by HungryHobo · · Score: 2

      there's no reason a machine couldn't learn to recognise signs that forwarn of dangerous behaviour on another drivers part.

      too often things like "Intuition" just get used as a standin for "magic" or "soul"

    20. Re:Not yet. by NiteShaed · · Score: 2

      That's not the point. If there were 400 or 4,000,000 buggy whip makers, the profession would still be obsolete and banning cars wouldn't have been a reasonable action just to protect those jobs. Yes, it's possible that self driving vehicles could reduce the call for taxis and delivery people, but that doesn't mean that we should avoid developing the technology, especially if it does it better than those people do it now. Robots have displaced millions of factory workers, computers in general have displaced millions more. Do you think we should be seriously thinking that we shouldn't have developed computers or robots though because of that?

      The fact is that as technology progresses, the need for human labor generally trends down, and we haven't come up with a really good way to deal with what to do with that excess labor force. I'm pretty sure the answer isn't to stop developing new technologies.

      --
      Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
    21. Re:Not yet. by NiteShaed · · Score: 2

      Don't put words in my mouth (or on my keyboard).

      I really didn't mean to, but in the context of the thread I'm not sure what else you'd be getting at by bringing up a concern about what taxi/truck drivers are supposed to do if they're replaced by robots.

      I don't understand how a driverless car will do that, unless being able to do other things while commuting is important.

      Google cites improved safety and efficiency in personal transportation as their goal. Sounds good to me. If there's no improvement to be had, then the technology probably wont catch on.

      Replacing the commuter train from NJ to NY with a bunch of cars that can drive themself does not seem the most efficient use or resources.

      Who's talking about replacing commuter trains? Honestly, Manhattan is pretty much at peek capacity for auto traffic as it is. Granted, these things might improve traffic flow, which would increase capacity a little, but for a city like N.Y. the best idea is probably to beef up the trains/busses, make sure ticket prices are reasonable, and keep raising the bridge and tunnel tolls. I'm not against the idea of making driving in parts of the city by permit only, and improving the subways/bus services. Hell, add some kind of Disney-esque monorail system, it'd go nicely with Times Square now. One of the trickiest parts though would be providing enough parking on the Jersey and Long Island sides for people to drop off their cars to catch a train, it can be pretty tough to find parking around the NJ Transit stations in a lot of places, and I've heard LIRR stations aren't much better.

      I would however ask for some type of proof of your last point in referring to human labor generally going down. Studies show that labor does not decrease, but only is transformed to different types of labor, from farm to factory, from factory to office,

      I'll concede that I can't prove that here, it's way to complicated condense into a /. post, and there are certainly arguments to be made either way.

      --
      Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
    22. Re:Not yet. by EsbenMoseHansen · · Score: 2

      And yet, when those uses are pointed out to you, you protest. There are really a lot of reasons for a car to be without a driver at all, and even more for an inattentive driver. Drive at night, get some sleep! Do the crossword, catch up on mail.

      --
      Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
  3. Do this in Nevada! by cvtan · · Score: 5, Funny

    In NY, all self-driving cars will have drivers after they have been on the road for a hour or so. They will not necessarily return home.

    --
    Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
    1. Re:Do this in Nevada! by happylight · · Score: 2

      Is that because they're endlessly looking for a parking space?

      This brings up a good point though. If your car can drive itself, why not just have it circle around the block forever? Probably cheaper than to put it in a garage.

    2. Re:Do this in Nevada! by silas_moeckel · · Score: 2

      Split the difference and have it take the tunnel to NJ and park at one of the strip malls.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
  4. I hope Ballmer gets jealous by GrumblyStuff · · Score: 2

    I can't wait for Microsoft's Kinectivehicle running Windows Live Turbo Edition. Oh, okay, even they wouldn't put motion controls in the car. Still after the search engine (all... four? ..of them), the music player and store, the phones... I'd really enjoy watching them throw their hat into the ring.

  5. 1 bug / 100,000 mile - I'll take that by OnTheEdge · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Only one error in 100,000 miles -- I'll take that in a heartbeat over the thoughtless people I drive beside each day. I guarantee the best drivers have more than 1 bug in 100K miles.

    1. Re:1 bug / 100,000 mile - I'll take that by sincewhen · · Score: 5, Funny

      I don't have bugs, I have race conditions!

      --
      -- Braden's law of data: All data spends some of its lifetime in an excel spreadsheet.
    2. Re:1 bug / 100,000 mile - I'll take that by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 2

      And you're honestly trying to claim you haven't made a least three mistakes while driving all that time? Not all mistakes result in tickets or accidents. Most don't.

    3. Re:1 bug / 100,000 mile - I'll take that by Rakishi · · Score: 2

      Would you allow others to drive AI cars on your route to work?

      Have you seen the quality of human drivers on the road? An AI, even a crappy one, would be an improvement over most of those idiots. At least an AI won't decide going 80 on the first rain in 6 months is a good idea. Or that texting while driving is a great plan. Or that being half asleep at the wheel has no potential pitfalls. Or that tail gating at 75 is the perfect way to drive. Or changing lanes without signaling. Or weaving between lanes to save 20 seconds on your commute. Or barreling down the shoulder once you run out of weaving room.

  6. Red flag? by miffo.swe · · Score: 2

    Cant help but thinking of this little gem. Arent we a bit backwards today?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotive_Act

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
  7. Minimum age by rossdee · · Score: 2

    I think all states have a minimum age for (human) drivers, so that should have to apply to computers driving cars too. They would have to show stability and reliablty before being let loose on the roads.

    1. Re:Minimum age by __aagbwg300 · · Score: 2

      Make it take a driver's test - it's already required for humans so it should be required for machines. In fact, every single combination (or version) should be tested on the roads. In addition to the marginal test requirements (parallel parking, K-turns, lane changes, etc.) I'd also throw in other things like "The bouncing ball rolling into the street" test (answer: dead stop because there is invariably a kid running after it) and the "Squirrel gets halfway into lane and freezes up" test (answer: slow down if possible, otherwise carry on). I have no doubt that the cars could pass a regular driver's test - it's the unexpected events that may separate the machines from the meat.

  8. Backseat drivers by mariox19 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I know that Bruce Schneier has said that human beings tend to overestimate risks when we feel that we are not in control and underestimate risks when we feel that we are in control. That's why people tend to feel more anxious in the passenger seat.

    I think it is this innate sensibility that will be the biggest obstacle to self-driven cars, and will remain after the technological problems are solved.

    --

    quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.

  9. Re:Mod AC parent up! by Eivind · · Score: 2

    Not so sure. Public pressure is a strong force, and this can come in many small steps. Infact arguably the trend started long ago.

    We've got automatic transmissions. Sure, no biggie. Then we've got cruise-control. Sure, it's a tiny step. Then the cruice-control is adaptive, slowing down if the vehicle in front does. Then you add lane-assist, where the car actively warns you if you're leaving the lane. Add automatic-braking for pedestrians. Add automatic parking. Add automatic sideline-stops if the car "thinks" the driver is asleep.

    A driverless car is HUGELY more useful than a driven car, so much so that everyone will want one. Or atleast everyone except for a few nostalgics. (the same demographic that today drive cars with no ABS - they exist, but are a fringe)

  10. Re:Please! Because Drivers Cost Too Much! by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 2

    Automation will bring prices down so much that you hardly have to work to buy what you need. I can find computers in the trash that would be considered Super Computers 20 years ago.

    Yes, we've seen that with current car technology. In 1970 an average vehicle cost 20% of average wages. Today it is close to 50%. And yet, in 1970, most vehicles were assembled by hand. Today, most are assembled through automation. Music CDs are infinitely cheaper to produce than cassette tapes, but even after taking into account inflation, they haven't come down in price. While it is true somethings do get cheaper, it tends to do more with supply and demand than cost of production. A business will charge whatever it can on a product, regardless of the cost to manufacture. If there isn't enough of a difference between the selling price and the cost to produce, they will quit producing it.

    Automation only reduces production costs, it doesn't impact selling price. Only competition can do that. But notice, even though there are numerous car manufacturers, they all sell in the same price range. Why? Because that is what the market will bear.

  11. Re:at least they're not freeloaders by geekoid · · Score: 2

    Google has plenty of tax dodges. Like the Double Irish, to name one.
    They should be paying billions more in taxes then they do by claiming the IP is owned by the company in Ireland.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  12. Saw one on the road yesterday by Animats · · Score: 2

    I saw one on the road around noon yesterday, Velodyne inverted-cone scanner rotating on top. This was on I-280 headed southbound between Palo Alto and Cupertino, about ten miles from Google HQ. It stayed centered in lane, going exactly 70mph. Not clear if it was in autonomous mode or just someone out gathering data. I have a picture, but it's not too good; I just grabbed a Nikon CoolPix and aimed it out the windshield.