Western Washington Univ. Considers Cutting Computer Science

An anonymous reader writes "Due to Washington State budget concerns, Western Washington University is considering cutting their Computer Science Department. The news comes even as local stations report a hiring boom in the tech sector. The WWU administration seems completely out of touch with the current state of the department. This story has gotten a lot of attention and support from local industry and the University of Washington professors."

Comments

It makes sense

[Billly Gates]

I am honestly not a troll here, but most of the big companies prefer Indian workers who can work for much cheaper and can't leave for better working conditions as easily. Many fortune 500 companies only have 6 or 7 employees that even deal with I.T. as they switch to salesforce.com and outsourcers and leave it very lean and barebones to satisfy Wall Street investors.

This is similiar to obtaining technical certifications for factory jobs. Americans simply do not do them anymore in a global economy.

If the university notices that students who graduate with these degrees do not find work compared to other majors then it makes sense to encourage these students to major in more profitable areas.

Re:It makes sense

[errandum]

There is a misconception here.

Computer scientists aren't the code-monkeys. They are either the overseers of code monkeys or the guys doing research on various platforms.

Everyone can be a code monkey, but if you want your plane to land, you need experts.

Re:It makes sense

[Jurily]

This is similiar to obtaining technical certifications for factory jobs. Americans simply do not do them anymore in a global economy.

The very idea of this comparison makes me sad about the state of modern software.

Re:It makes sense

[deathguppie]

You don't live near Microsoft (obviously) where they are generally known as the "Indian mafia" because of they way they only like to hire other Indians and generally make a hell of a lot more money than you espouse. The average MS software eng. starts at around $80k. Most of them I've known make around $120K.

Yes you are right about there being a lot of Indians, but you are way off base on working conditions and wages.

Re:It makes sense

[Ethanol-fueled]

I work for a big technology conglomerate and I agree with your glass ceiling assertion and that what the degree is in is irrelevant. In fact, the only thing that does matter is what college the person graduated from.

Now, I'm not one to slam people because of their lack of credentials. Liberal arts grads and uneducated basement dwellers alike can both make good programmers. I'm good at what I do because I was busy collecting experience and wisdom in the real world rather than studying 8 hours a day learning about triple integrals i'd never, ever use. I'm happy to say that 90% of my company's employees are American citizens, but there are a few disturbing trends I've noticed throughout the years.

1. Corporations not hiring from within - they'll post a job description that many people within the company are qualified for, then hire some outsider because he's a friend or relative of some higher-up. An example at my company was a Field Service Engineer posting that required experience with . Only people within the company had experience with that device, and had applied for the position, but an outsider friend-of-a-higher-up was hired instead. This has a profound effect on readiness and morale. In another, similar instance, we lost a valuable experienced employee and installed somebody who quit in 3 days because she didn't have a window office.
2. Unqualified hires being put in positions they shouldn't be, because they graduated from $FAVORED_UNIVERSITY - Pretty much says it all. Unproven, inexperienced idiots being placed in important positions just because they graduated from the same place a lot of the head honchos did. Damn near singlehandedly destroyed the productivity and morale of my department. Also prevented more respected, qualified, internal candidates from filling the position and saving us a lot of hassle.
3. Top-heaviness - It may seem counterintuitive, but more and more managers (read: people with degrees) are being installed, with job titles the only purpose of which is to justify hiring another manager, with less technician-level positions capable of doing the same job for less pay. This increases both management and technician churn while putting undue stress on the bread and butter that actually gets the job done.

Your mileage may vary.

Technology has no place in Modern America.

[Anonymous Coward]

In Modern America, there just isn't any place for science, mathematics, engineering, and anything else that's remotely technical.

In Modern America, it's important to know about sports and Christianity. That is all that one needs to know.

In Modern America, why is anyone surprised when universities start cutting technical programs? That's just not what American culture is about today.

Makes sense to me

[Iron Condor]

There may be a hiring boom in "IT folks", but what does have to do with computer science? A hiring boom in plumbing doesn't mean we should have universities teach more hydrodynamics.

Let's face it: 97% of "computer science" graduates end up as code monkeys or cable stringers in jobs that a six-week trade certificate would be entirely sufficient to qualify for.

Re:Makes sense to me

[bill_mcgonigle]

There may be a hiring boom in "IT folks", but what does have to do with computer science?

I do some of both. When I do IT work, I clean up, or often have to throw out a non-solution developed by an IT jockey who doesn't have a CS background because fundamental assumptions were impossible, the problem was never correctly analyzed, or the performance is abysmal due to knowledge deficits.

You simply can't make intelligent decisions on how to structure, organize, and optimize IT systems if you don't know how they work all the way up and down the stack.

CS is the MD for a sophisticated-level IT residency.

Rational Economic Behavior

[Spazntwich]

WWU isn't in business to educate kids; they're in it to stay in business, and liberal arts majors vastly outnumber technical majors. In trying economic times, the money sinks are going to be the first to go.

As for the utterly irrational economic policies that have resulted in scores of directionless kids heading to college and picking the easier majors, distorting the market for technical degrees and leaving us with bottomless piles of college-educated baristas, well... I don't know where I'm going with any of this.

America: We're getting what we deserve.

Re:Rational Economic Behavior

[umbramei]

Not that I'm saying this department is weak; as far as I know it's a terrific department. But the decision to cut the department isn't purely a matter of whether the subject is important. It's a matter of whether the department is economically successful, or successful at serving a public need.

The CS department at WWU is, in fact, quite strong. (For instance, as with most ABET-accredited CS programs, graduating majors are required to take the ETS Major Field Test; their scores put the program at or above the 95th percentile among all institutions that require this test.).

As far as economic success, the cost-per-student is right about average among academic departments at the school (it pays for its own equipment through lab fees), and enrolls a sizable number of students. Moreover, the program's record for new-graduate employment and salary ranks first or second among all programs in the university. Not only does this bode well economically for the university in terms of alumni donations and loan repayment, but it's one indicator that the program is "successful at serving a public need."

Other indicators are the regional hiring boom in CS-related positions, and statements and reports from Washington businesses, industry organizations, and the government. For example, the state's Higher Education Coordinating Board recently released a report showing that the state's need for computer science majors outstrips all other higher-education needs in the state, by far.

This story isn't about a school making a tough, but necessary economic decision in the face of a budget crisis. (Since already-enrolled students are guaranteed the chance to graduate, eliminating the department would have little economic impact for several years, and the cost-per-student would go up enormously as the number of students dwindled. Besides that, tenured CS faculty would, except in a financial emergency, have to be allowed to teach in other departments in which they were qualified, such as Mathematics.) What this story is about is out-of-touch members of the administration who profoundly fail to understand the role of computer science in modern society, both academically and economically.

Re:CS Degree? Are you insane?

[Hazel Bergeron]

I look forward to the law/medicine gold rush.

Well, it'll be nice to see as many doctors as in Cuba, and paid similarly.

Lawyers/"business"? It's hard to put value on nonproductive work.

Bull$@!+

[rsilvergun]

the media has been doing this for years: declaring a hiring boom anywhere our rulers want to depress wages. They did it with engineers, they did it with tech, and they're starting in on it with nursing. As has already been pointed out most of the jobs are meant for H1-B visas, and the only reason they're listed is to meet the legal requirement. There's tons of ways around hiring Americans.

Said it before, will not doubt say it again: stop voting Republican, put a majority of Dems in office. At least the Dems have to pretend to be pro-labor. It puts a limit on the crap they can do. The Republican's core philosophy boils down to: screw labor, the free market

State spending up 80%: Inflation and pop up 40%

[mschuyler]

Actually, state spending in Washington has gone up 80% in ten years at the same time population growth and inflation have been less than 40%. We don't have a revenue problem in Washington, we have a spending problem. If the State were spending at the same rate it did ten years ago, allowing for inflation and population gowth, there would be no budget issues. But instead, the legislature and governor went on a spending spree and added state workers by the thousands, added spending programs "for the children" and generally created an unsustainable spending environment. They do the heart-strings schtick and claim they don't want to cut "aid to the increasing number of poor people" when, in fact, aid to poor people is so good here that they move here to take advantage of it.

Now, rather than cut the spending programs, the state is going after things like this and claiming that it is because people "don't want to pay an income tax." Thanks for drinking the Kool Aid there above. It's the Party Line that counts. In fact, Washington ranks 13th in the nation for tax burden per capita, mostly because of a very high sales tax rate and reliance upon. So people stop spending and buying cars and the state revenue goes down. Duh!

CS is not IT

[brillow]

A degree in CS is not prepping you to be a sys admin. CS is an academic discipline, not a vocation. Also, going to a University is not a vocational move. Universities do not teach you job skills. They disseminate and create knowledge.

If you think students should have the opportunity to learn IT skills, it should not be done in a CS dept at a University. It should be done in a vocational school.

Cutting CS makes sense ...

[perpenso]

Your points seem more or less valid, but somewhat irrelevant to the situation: CS is not IT, and university is not vocational training. Even putting that aside, it strikes me as an odd choice of department to cut - I can't imagine running a CS department costs much, in comparison to engineering or physical sciences.

Cutting CS makes sense from a political point of view. Its equivalent to a city threatening to cut police, fire or K-12 teachers. The goal of the politicians, government or university, is to maximize outcry to get a budget restored. If a city announced cuts to administration, or a university announced dropping its Canadian Studies program, no one would care rather they would approve. This is all about restoring a budget or "punishing" those who called for budget cuts to prevent a second round.