Western Washington Univ. Considers Cutting Computer Science

An anonymous reader writes "Due to Washington State budget concerns, Western Washington University is considering cutting their Computer Science Department. The news comes even as local stations report a hiring boom in the tech sector. The WWU administration seems completely out of touch with the current state of the department. This story has gotten a lot of attention and support from local industry and the University of Washington professors."

Comments

Technology has no place in Modern America.

[Anonymous Coward]

In Modern America, there just isn't any place for science, mathematics, engineering, and anything else that's remotely technical.

In Modern America, it's important to know about sports and Christianity. That is all that one needs to know.

In Modern America, why is anyone surprised when universities start cutting technical programs? That's just not what American culture is about today.

Re:Technology has no place in Modern America.

[White Flame]

[From TFA comments]

From someone who was present at a meeting discussing this:

"This decision, apparently still potential, is a permanent statement of the University about the future of Computer Science. The impression conveyed in the meeting with the Provost and Dean was that we had reached the End of History. Now that everyone has a computer and a spreadsheet and a wordprocessor, the contribution of computing to the life of the mind has been exhausted. I do not write this sarcastically. This was the sense of the meeting."

Makes sense to me

[Iron Condor]

There may be a hiring boom in "IT folks", but what does have to do with computer science? A hiring boom in plumbing doesn't mean we should have universities teach more hydrodynamics.

Let's face it: 97% of "computer science" graduates end up as code monkeys or cable stringers in jobs that a six-week trade certificate would be entirely sufficient to qualify for.

Re:Makes sense to me

[bill_mcgonigle]

There may be a hiring boom in "IT folks", but what does have to do with computer science?

I do some of both. When I do IT work, I clean up, or often have to throw out a non-solution developed by an IT jockey who doesn't have a CS background because fundamental assumptions were impossible, the problem was never correctly analyzed, or the performance is abysmal due to knowledge deficits.

You simply can't make intelligent decisions on how to structure, organize, and optimize IT systems if you don't know how they work all the way up and down the stack.

CS is the MD for a sophisticated-level IT residency.

Rational Economic Behavior

[Spazntwich]

WWU isn't in business to educate kids; they're in it to stay in business, and liberal arts majors vastly outnumber technical majors. In trying economic times, the money sinks are going to be the first to go.

As for the utterly irrational economic policies that have resulted in scores of directionless kids heading to college and picking the easier majors, distorting the market for technical degrees and leaving us with bottomless piles of college-educated baristas, well... I don't know where I'm going with any of this.

America: We're getting what we deserve.

Re:Rational Economic Behavior

[umbramei]

Not that I'm saying this department is weak; as far as I know it's a terrific department. But the decision to cut the department isn't purely a matter of whether the subject is important. It's a matter of whether the department is economically successful, or successful at serving a public need.

The CS department at WWU is, in fact, quite strong. (For instance, as with most ABET-accredited CS programs, graduating majors are required to take the ETS Major Field Test; their scores put the program at or above the 95th percentile among all institutions that require this test.).

As far as economic success, the cost-per-student is right about average among academic departments at the school (it pays for its own equipment through lab fees), and enrolls a sizable number of students. Moreover, the program's record for new-graduate employment and salary ranks first or second among all programs in the university. Not only does this bode well economically for the university in terms of alumni donations and loan repayment, but it's one indicator that the program is "successful at serving a public need."

Other indicators are the regional hiring boom in CS-related positions, and statements and reports from Washington businesses, industry organizations, and the government. For example, the state's Higher Education Coordinating Board recently released a report showing that the state's need for computer science majors outstrips all other higher-education needs in the state, by far.

This story isn't about a school making a tough, but necessary economic decision in the face of a budget crisis. (Since already-enrolled students are guaranteed the chance to graduate, eliminating the department would have little economic impact for several years, and the cost-per-student would go up enormously as the number of students dwindled. Besides that, tenured CS faculty would, except in a financial emergency, have to be allowed to teach in other departments in which they were qualified, such as Mathematics.) What this story is about is out-of-touch members of the administration who profoundly fail to understand the role of computer science in modern society, both academically and economically.

Re:It makes sense

[errandum]

There is a misconception here.

Computer scientists aren't the code-monkeys. They are either the overseers of code monkeys or the guys doing research on various platforms.

Everyone can be a code monkey, but if you want your plane to land, you need experts.

Re:It makes sense

[MaskedSlacker]

If the university notices that students who graduate with these degrees do not find work compared to other majors then it makes sense to encourage these students to major in more profitable areas.

I know, I know, you didn't RTFA, but that's the exact opposite of what's been noticed.

Re:It makes sense

[Jurily]

This is similiar to obtaining technical certifications for factory jobs. Americans simply do not do them anymore in a global economy.

The very idea of this comparison makes me sad about the state of modern software.

I am attending Western Washington University as a

[Anonymous Coward]

I am attending Western Washington University as a Computer Science major. Thankfully, this report may be jumping the gun, as there hasn't yet been any confirmation to the future of the department, but it is certainly on the chopping block.

The students and the faculty have no idea what actually is going on. In an attempt to ensure that the students in the department can graduate, professors in our classes have told any premajors (including myself) to declare immediately. We've pushed 70 new applicants this week. The department involved in making the budget cut decisions have not been forthcoming in their intentions, and there is fear that they may be attempting to push this beneath the door, so to speak, so any publicity, especially here on slashdot, is very welcome.

We're speculating that this may be a public relations tactic to try and get some external funding, which the university desperately needs. Unfortunately, our fate is still undecided at this point, and I'm awaiting news just as earnestly as my professors are.

Re:It makes sense

[Ethanol-fueled]

I work for a big technology conglomerate and I agree with your glass ceiling assertion and that what the degree is in is irrelevant. In fact, the only thing that does matter is what college the person graduated from.

Now, I'm not one to slam people because of their lack of credentials. Liberal arts grads and uneducated basement dwellers alike can both make good programmers. I'm good at what I do because I was busy collecting experience and wisdom in the real world rather than studying 8 hours a day learning about triple integrals i'd never, ever use. I'm happy to say that 90% of my company's employees are American citizens, but there are a few disturbing trends I've noticed throughout the years.

1. Corporations not hiring from within - they'll post a job description that many people within the company are qualified for, then hire some outsider because he's a friend or relative of some higher-up. An example at my company was a Field Service Engineer posting that required experience with . Only people within the company had experience with that device, and had applied for the position, but an outsider friend-of-a-higher-up was hired instead. This has a profound effect on readiness and morale. In another, similar instance, we lost a valuable experienced employee and installed somebody who quit in 3 days because she didn't have a window office.
2. Unqualified hires being put in positions they shouldn't be, because they graduated from $FAVORED_UNIVERSITY - Pretty much says it all. Unproven, inexperienced idiots being placed in important positions just because they graduated from the same place a lot of the head honchos did. Damn near singlehandedly destroyed the productivity and morale of my department. Also prevented more respected, qualified, internal candidates from filling the position and saving us a lot of hassle.
3. Top-heaviness - It may seem counterintuitive, but more and more managers (read: people with degrees) are being installed, with job titles the only purpose of which is to justify hiring another manager, with less technician-level positions capable of doing the same job for less pay. This increases both management and technician churn while putting undue stress on the bread and butter that actually gets the job done.

Your mileage may vary.

Re:I am attending Western Washington University as

[Sangui5]

Speaking as somebody who has seen what sort of things can happen in campus politics, I see three reasons for what is going on.

1) The department of CS has become... clogged... with under-performing faculty..
2) The administration is playing a brinkmanship game with those above them.
3) The administration is incompetent.

Now, I've listed these in order of most likely to least likely. The administration could be incompetent, but do you really believe anyone could be that stupid? There may be a lot of liberal arts majors, but those are the money sinks; the smart money on alumni donations is still engineers, doctors, and lawyers. Rather than the administration being stupid, there are other explanations, which are far more likely.

They could be playing a political brinkmanship game. I wouldn't be surprised if the plan to close the CS department is just a threat, and nothing more. It would make sense; in a time of mild to moderate budget crisis, it is not uncommon to threaten to cut something popular in order to garner more money for other things. If the threat was to cancel the history department, would there be a big stink? Absolutely not (unless there are a bunch of history buffs in the state senate... who knows? Maybe sports psychology, or sociology, or some other useles.... I meant, less practical... major).

It is very unfortunate, but I think that the most likely reason for this is that the faculty in the CS department are not up to snuff. It could well be that they are, collectively, getting older and tireder, and just not putting the effort into teaching that they could be. It could also be that they just weren't that good to begin with. But, what I think may be the case, is that the CS department is populated by... faculty from an older time. Faculty who, when they were hired, it was a rock solid CV if they had a single top-tier publication. When they got tenure, a solid case had 1 top tier publication plus a smattering of lesser accomplishments. WWU's faculty could think a wonderful accomplishment is a single pub a year.

That is to say, WWU could possibly be staffed by professors who would be laughed out of the room if they tried to defend a thesis today. It isn't that they weren't worthy when they were hired; it is just that standards have gone way up. I personally have a better publication record now than Randy Pausch (famous for "The Last Lecture") had when he was made a full prof; I don't even rate an interview at top schools today. WWU may simply be looking at what they have, and then looking at what the supply of desperate fresh grads are, and deciding that the logical thing to do is to wipe the slate clean, keep maybe one or two of the old faculty, but to otherwise start fresh with, talented, sharp, bright-eyed, and coincidentally desperately eager, newly minted faculty. I've seen it happen at much more prestigious institutions.

Re:It makes sense

[II Xion II]

Sorry I don't buy that entirely. It's true that outsourcing IT has become more and more popular, but it's hardly to the point where "many Fortune 500 companies only have 6 or 7 employees that even deal with I.T." That's a pretty big hyperbole.

I work at a Fortune 100 company helping maintain production code and working on transitioning development applications all the way to the production environment. We have no less than a thousand employees (with an employee total of over 30,000 people) who work directly or indirectly in I.T. in no less than a dozen different departments. I'm sure that number includes our outsourced colleagues in India (and we do have many consultants as well offshore employees, especially Indians), but we have many, many locally-based workers here in our main locations in the United States. Those include many who work in traditional Helpdesk roles, network engineering, environment moves, development silos, production support silos, business-IT liaisons, database management, host systems management & batch, incident management & escalation, etc. etc. who all help to develop and maintain a portfolio of hundreds of disparate and important applications critical to our infrastructural and business needs.

Maybe I'm not as jaded about outsourcing as the next person because of this experience. Maybe it's because I see the critical role it serves in helping companies/consumers lower costs and Indians/others get better lives. Maybe my company is the exception (though I doubt it, all companies of this size have diverse I.T. needs that make I.T. staffs of hundreds probably needed). Regardless, I think that combining outsourcing strategies while holding onto valuable I.T. employees here in the United States and the Western world is nonetheless what needs to be done in order to facilitate the proper mix of cost-savings and quality service/employee morale.

Cutting CS makes sense ...

[perpenso]

Your points seem more or less valid, but somewhat irrelevant to the situation: CS is not IT, and university is not vocational training. Even putting that aside, it strikes me as an odd choice of department to cut - I can't imagine running a CS department costs much, in comparison to engineering or physical sciences.

Cutting CS makes sense from a political point of view. Its equivalent to a city threatening to cut police, fire or K-12 teachers. The goal of the politicians, government or university, is to maximize outcry to get a budget restored. If a city announced cuts to administration, or a university announced dropping its Canadian Studies program, no one would care rather they would approve. This is all about restoring a budget or "punishing" those who called for budget cuts to prevent a second round.