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Seismologists Tried For Manslaughter For Not Predicting Earthquake

Posted by Roblimo on from the next-time-the-scientists-might-not-say-anything-at-all dept.

mcgrew writes "From LiveScience: 'Earthquake prediction can be a grave, and faulty science, and in the case of Italian seismologists who are being tried for the manslaughter of the people who died in the 2009 L'Aquila quake, it can have legal consequences.' A group of seven, including six seismologists and a government official, reportedly didn't alert the public ahead of time of the risk of the L'Aquila earthquake, which occurred on April 6 of that year, killing around 300 people, according to the US Geological Survey."

25 of 154 comments (clear)

  1. More Details by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Informative
    Details from the LiveScience article were lacking, to be nice, and fairly one sided. So I dug up a slightly more reputable article that has these facts:

    Following a committee meeting just a week before the quake, some members of the group assured the public that they were in no danger.

    If this is true, this is decidedly different from telling the public that they don't know whether there is any danger. Saying "I can't predict earthquakes" is fine. Saying "You are in no danger" would probably be interpreted differently than "We have no indications that you are at an elevated risk."

    In the aftermath of the quake, which killed 309 people, many citizens said that these reassurances were the reason they did not take precautionary measures, such as leaving their homes.

    More specifically, the accusation focuses on a statement made at a press conference on 31 March 2009 by Bernardo De Bernardinis, who was then deputy technical head of Italy's Civil Protection Agency and is now president of the Institute for Environmental Protection and Research in Rome. "The scientific community tells me there is no danger," he said, "because there is an ongoing discharge of energy. The situation looks favourable".

    Hasn't it been established that movement of GPS ground stations (slippage) indicates increased risk of earthquakes? That was the basis for claims that the New Madrid fault line is overestimated ... and the above quote employs the exact opposite logic.

    It appears that the crux of this case rests upon "he told me to say" versus "it's not our job to tell the public." But the civil servant who "summed" up the scientist's summary appears to have fallen victim to treating this like a forecasting of the weather. He will probably regret maintaining a neutral report and should have just said "inconclusive" instead of "looks good."

    Vincenzo Vittorini, a physician in L'Aquila whose wife and daughter were killed in the earthquake and who is now president of the local victims' association '309 Martiri' (309 Martyrs), hopes the trial will lead to a thorough investigation into what went wrong in those days. "Nobody here wants to put science in the dock," he says. "We all know that the earthquake could not be predicted, and that evacuation was not an option. All we wanted was clearer information on risks in order to make our choices".

    He says that the committee had precious information that was not passed on to citizens, for example on which buildings were most likely to collapse in the event of a strong earthquake. Vittorini thinks that those charged are not the only ones to blame, and that further investigations might eventually place greater responsibilities on politicians at the local and national level.

    Indeed, this sounds to me more like a case against Italy's Civil Protection Agency instead of scientists and seismologists. Not that they couldn't predict the quake but general failure to provide earthquake plans and proper materials/handouts/PSAs to the public.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:More Details by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Hasn't it been established that movement of GPS ground stations (slippage) indicates increased risk of earthquakes [slashdot.org]?"

      No. Not really. Deformation is ongoing and varies over time and location in tectonically-active areas. Figuring out that a particular motion is a precursor to a major earthquake versus ordinary, smaller-scale earthquakes that happen all the time is extraordinarily difficult, and can usually only be done after the fact. You can notice that there might be an increase in small earthquake frequency and intensity before big ones, but there are many more such increases that peak and nothing happens at all. If this was a reliable way to predict large earthquakes we'd already be doing it. There's a long history of failures in attempts (both big earthquakes not predicted and ones that were but didn't come to pass).

      "[from the article] He says that the committee had precious information that was not passed on to citizens, for example on which buildings were most likely to collapse in the event of a strong earthquake. Vittorini thinks that those charged are not the only ones to blame, and that further investigations might eventually place greater responsibilities on politicians at the local and national level."

      THIS is the problem: an engineering problem. The geologists/seismologists can you what the potential for an earthquake is (a percentage chance per year for a particular magnitude), it's going to be a rough estimate with wide uncertainties depending upon how well instrumented and historically studied the area is, and the geologists/seismologists are going to be able to give the engineers a probabilistic envelope for the typical frequency, amplitude, and duration of ground motion acceleration based on past events. A geologist can also survey ground materials to determine which will amplify, attenuate, or otherwise filter the ground acceleration signal, which will affect any structure built on top. A geologist/seismologist will NOT be able to tell you how the building will respond in those circumstances. That's the job of a structural engineer. If an event is well outside the norm of previously-experienced events in an area, that's what the confidence intervals and engineering safety factors are for. The uncertainty is supposed to be built into the quake model and the structures.

      If this case is about geologists/seismologists not being able to predict an earthquake, then this case is stupid, because as the article and any other geologist/seismologist will tell you, they can't do that for individual events. If this case is about improper seismic risk assessments and a failure of the usual partnership with engineers evaluating the implications of earthquakes for pre-existing and new structures, then it would make some sense. If this case is about PR people not understanding how it works, and misleading the public by statements along the lines of "There is no risk", then that isn't really the fault of the scientists.

      Look, it's Italy. It's a tectonically-active part of the world. There is NO place in Italy without a significant earthquake risk. NONE. To say something like "There is no earthquake risk" would be ridiculous. What I suspect happened is that the scientists said the recent increase in smaller events is no cause for alarm (which is true -- small earthquakes vary up and down in rates all the time with no "big" one following), and then it was presented the wrong way, or people took away the wrong message. It's like telling someone with a beach cottage in Florida that "Just because it was raining and stormy all last week doesn't mean there's any reason to expect you're more likely to be hit by a hurricane this year", and then people suing because their cottage gets flattened the following month -- except that hurricanes are one hell of a lot more predictable than major earthquakes. Furthermore, building a cottage on the beach anywhere in Florida is already putting yourself in harms way. I can't say this often enough: it's the same basic si

    2. Re:More Details by Savantissimo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually the earthquake was predicted and the warnings were ignored. Italy 'Dismissed Expert's Quake Warning Sky News / 9:06pm UK, Monday April 06, 2009 / Nick Pisa in Rome :

      Seismologist Gioacchino Giuliani had warned "a big one" was on the way and even toured the region in a van with loudspeakers warning people, as late as last week.

      But he was reported to the police by authorities for "needlessly spreading panic" and also dismissed by L'Aquila's mayor and other civic officials.

      Dr Giuliani based his theory on increasingly high levels of radon gas that had been noted in the area and even posted his findings on his website.

      However, he was forced to take them down and the site has not been working.

      Dr Giuliani, who works at the Institute of Nuclear Physics at nearby Gran Sasso, said: "There are people who need to apologise to me. These people will have these deaths on their conscience."

      --
      "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
    3. Re:More Details by jd · · Score: 2

      If a seismologist states categorically that an earthquake is not going to happen, they are stating categorically that they CAN predict earthquakes (or at least their absence).

      In the US, I seriously doubt that this would be laughed out of court. I doubt manslaughter would hold up, but judges would probably rule that the complainant had a right to their day in court precisely because the experts grievously abused their position of trust by telling a falsehood to placate them.

      (FWIW, I'll link this in with TEPCO's communications. It is not that the reactor content in Japan went AWOL that upsets people, it is that TEPCO abused their position of trust by telling falsehoods to placate the public that upsets people. Placating, versus being honest, is NOT acceptable policy. Ever.)

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    4. Re:More Details by pk001i · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually the earthquake was predicted

      If by predicted an earthquake, you mean he predicted the wrong time and the wrong place, then yes, he predicted an earthquake. And this is not the first time he has predicted an earthquake, this is just the first time his prediction was within a week of an earthquake actually occurring.

      Giuliani uses radon as a measure of earths movement, and tries to use increased radon levels as a sign of an impending earthquake. This method has never been found to predict earthquakes, but even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

      Scientists respond...

      --
      Opinions were like kittens, I was giving them away.
  2. Who's next, meteorologists? Stock brokers? by killfixx · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Shenanigans!! Double shenanigans!

    This is why I hate gambling!

    What is the penalty if they had erred on the side of caution and had been wrong? Loss of job? Loss of reputation?

    It would have cost millions to plan, evacuate, etc...

    Holding people liable for an act of nature is a dangerous precedent.

    Yikes!

    --
    "Helping to keep you two steps ahead of the Thought Police!"
    1. Re:Who's next, meteorologists? Stock brokers? by Just+Brew+It! · · Score: 2

      Terrible analogy. The situation was more like telling someone "If you run this red light today, you're in no more danger than you would've been if you'd run it yesterday".

  3. "I Thought They Were Suing SCIENTOLOGISTS" by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 3, Funny

    Oh, well... Never mind.

    --
    "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
    Never been known to fail..."
  4. Re:And yet, false predictions would also be bad. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Except if you actually found out what really happened:

    Following a committee meeting just a week before the quake, some members of the group assured the public that they were in no danger.

    Providing such a strong affirmative statement that they were in no danger, despite the fact that it was probably a sincere statement, was not a correct thing to say and they should have realized that if something did happen it was going to open them up to issues. It's like the inspector for a bridge telling people that they are in no danger driving over it yet it collapses days later. Shouldn't they be held responsible for their statements turning out to be untrue?

  5. Re:Who can we sue? by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Yes but members of the committee specifically said that the people were "in no danger". That's a rather bold statement to make and I see no reason why they shouldn't be held accountable for it. It's no different from a drug company telling people a drug is safe that isn't or a bridge inspector telling people a bridge is safe and it collapses days later.

  6. Fun with summaries by Ironchew · · Score: 3, Funny

    Earthquake prediction can be a faulty science

    I see what you did there...

  7. Re:Who can we sue? by LostAlaska · · Score: 5, Funny

    Aren't earthquakes often referred to as "acts of god". So if they want to hold someone accountable, I mean the Vatican is like just down the road...

  8. Great way to increase false warnings to 99.99% by tazan · · Score: 2

    If it were me I'd start releasing automated warnings every morning.

  9. Psychics by pitchpipe · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is my idea for Psychics: whenever some sort of disaster happens and a Psychic comes along claiming to have predicted it, unless he can produce any evidence showing that he tried to warn people beforehand with specific warnings, he should be thrown into prison as responsible for those lives.

    --
    Look where all this talking got us, baby.
  10. Opps there goes science by StillNeedMoreCoffee · · Score: 2

    Talk about a chilling effect on scientific research.. The next thing you will be doing is suing Doctors if they get a diagnosis wrong, oh wait we are doing that.

  11. Re:And yet, false predictions would also be bad. by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Or we could skip all of your crappy options and picked the one that a proper scientist would say in a case where they don't know for sure either way: "we don't know" but told people to be alert in case something did happen.

  12. great. by spongman · · Score: 2

    I'm not a qualified slashdot commenter, and in no way should this comment be taken to convey any meaning, opinion, or suggestion that could in any way harm the reader. The poster is not to be held liable for any damages incurred by, or after reading this comment. By reading this comment, the reader hereby relinquishes any right to sue, or in any other way claim damages from the poster, and any such legal proceeding shall be brought in a location of the posters choosing. The content of this post is copyright (c) 2011 the poster, all rights reserved. Any reproduction of the comment must contain this paragraph.

    What a load of fucking bullshit.

  13. Re:Who can we sue? by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 2

    There is a difference between being held accountable for a wrong statement, and being held for manslaughter. I'd much rather have no charges than levy a manslaughter charge.

    I'm not sure if they should be held accountable at all. While they should have worded it better, everyone was safe as far as they could tell. If they had stated the risk properly, it wouldn't have mattered, I really doubt it would have saved lives to properly state the risks.

    All I really see is a possible chilling effect which will have the opposite of the desired effect, you'll see students enter other fields than risk a charge that doesn't fit the actual error.

  14. Re:Who can we sue? by darkshadow88 · · Score: 2

    Your analogy doesn't work here. It's not like the seismologists actually caused the earthquake. They merely examined the evidence and concluded that there should not have been any danger. Occasionally they get it wrong (besides, the circumstances may well have changed after they said there was no danger).

    In other news, yesterday a severe thunderstorm hit nearby, and the criminals at the National Weather Service didn't even issue a severe thunderstorm watch! I could have gotten struck by lightning! Why don't we prosecute the NWS for putting everyone's lives in grave danger?

  15. Re:April 1? by Kamiza+Ikioi · · Score: 2

    The USA has plenty of bad courts as well.

    Didn't say the USA didn't.

    There is a major difference between staying you don't know if there will be a quake and stating there will not be a quake. The Weather Channel never says "There will be no tornadoes in Joliet today."

    Actually, no. If the Weather channel predicts a path for a storm on a line, and the storm changes direction unexpectedly (which does happen), it would be the same situation. There is a common sense presumption that mother nature is, by nature, unpredictable. Tornadoes can form out of clear skies and strike any time of year, even in winter. The chance of surviving a tornado on any given day might be 0.999..., but there are no guarantees, ever.

    Trusting anyone, ESPECIALLY a seismologist to have an infallible prediction is quite possibly a symptom of insanity. Anyone living in San Fransisco would know that.

    --
    I8-D
  16. Re:Slashdot editorial garbage by Just+Brew+It! · · Score: 2

    Please provide the quote where they explicitly stated that there would *not* be a quake.

    The closest it gets is:

    In one now-infamous interview included in the prosecutors' case, commission member Bernardo De Bernardis of the national civil protection department responded to a question about whether residents should just sit back and relax with a glass of wine. "Absolutely, absolutely a Montepulciano doc," he responded, referring to a high-end red. "This seems important."

    The odds of an earthquake, and the timing thereof, can't be predicted with any degree of accuracy. I interpret this as the guy telling people "Just go on with your lives as usual". What else are you supposed to do, when you don't know whether it will happen tomorrow, in 6 months, or in 5 years? If you were going to take precautions against earthquakes (e.g. making sure your home was structurally sound), you should've already done so, since you live in a f**king earthquake zone! (The place was apparently leveled by earthquakes *twice* in the 1700s, and had a pretty strong one in the 1950s as well.)

    People really need to take a little more personal responsibility, and not react to anything bad with "Who can we sue?"

  17. Re:Who can we sue? by NoSig · · Score: 2

    The bridge inspector should only be held accountable if he failed to carry out his work according to minimum standards of bridge inspecting, which I'm sure are laid out in detail somewhere. The same should be true for earthquake predictors, but since earthquake prediction is much less of a sure thing than bridge inspection, the minimum standards are much lower as well. It's not relevant if the statement they made was true, it is relevant if the statement they made was reasonably justified based on minimum standards of earthquake prediction. If a bridge fails in a way that a bridge inspector is not tasked to inspect, then the bridge inspector is not at fault. The difference is that we have a very good idea about the things that make bridges fail, while we don't know how to predict earthquakes with certainty.

  18. Silliness. by jkeelsnc · · Score: 2

    What? This sounds like something that would happen here in America. Somehow, its all the seismologists' fault. What? What kind of a whiney, victimized brain does it take to come up with a reason to charge someone with manslaughter in this case. Earthquakes are not easily predicted and certainly not accurately. The statements from the Seismologists should be listened to but with understanding that they are likely off (at least to some extent). Somehow, these cases should be thrown right out the door and not one penny should go to the "victim" families. As for the charges, the judge in this case should drop them and dismiss everyone and throw this case right out the door. Of course, I am sure the lawyers are licking their chops at the chance to make a fast buck off the "victims" like scavengers picking dead bones in the desert somewhere. As usual. Apparently, Itlalians and Italian politicians and lawyers are just as dumb and greedy as they sometimes are in America.

  19. And suddenly, no more Seismologists! by TriezGamer · · Score: 2

    Who's going to volunteer to be the next disaster prediction expert when you wind up imprisoned for it? Yeah, mistakes suck -- but without them, you'll NEVER have a warning.

  20. Sue *all* psychics! by KreAture · · Score: 2

    Everyone who has ever claimed to be psychic should thus be sued for not predicting the earthquakes.
    Further more they are responsible for Fukushima and even for me missing my bus last thursday.

    They should also make it illegal to be wrong.
    That will fix all problems, even those relating to politics as then no decisions made in "the publics best interest" will be wrong and life will be perfect.

    Really, everything will be peachy! Unless I am wrong ofcource...