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Patriot Act Extension By Autopen Raises Questions for Congressman
Okian Warrior writes "Congress passed the [Patriot act extension] bill Thursday night, shortly before certain provisions of the Patriot Act were set to expire. However, Mr. Obama could not sign the bill right away in person, since he was in Europe for the G8 Summit. In order to sign the bill before the measures expired, he authorized the use of the autopen machine, which holds a pen and signs his actual signature. Republican Rep. Tom Graves of Georgia sent President Obama a letter today questioning the constitutionality."
I for one welcome our new law-signing robotic overlords.
... I'm... I'm sorry.
There's a spot in User Info for World of Warcraft account names? Really?
I'd like to question the constitutionality of a lot more than just how it was signed.
What the hell is this autopen machine? Wouldn't this amount to some sort of forgery, at the very least?
I ain't following no law signed by a robot!
I'm sure this is important. But given the bill in question, it seems a lot like complaining about the color of shirt the rapist wears while they're pounding you in the ass.
YES
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
The device is called an "undergrad".
Because you can't extend a law which has expired. The provisions would have expired at midnight this morning, before the bill could have become law by default. This would have (arguably) rendered the extension null and void.
Hmm, interesting that you call one of the few who stood up and voted against the law a "partisan hack". It would seem you can't see past the D or R next to a person's name. There's a name for that I think. It's right on the tip of my tongue...
Look, I'm not into the whole "political" thing.
But it isn't "Mr." Obama; it's Mr. President or President Obama.
You could also use The President or POTUS.
Saying "Mr." Obama isn't just disrespecting him, it's disrespecting The Office of the President. It's tacky.
I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
"Congress bumped up against the deadline mainly because of the stubborn resistance from a single senator, Republican freshman Rand Paul of Kentucky, who saw the terrorist-hunting powers as an abuse of privacy rights. Paul held up the final vote for several days while he demanded a chance to change the bill to diminish the government's ability to monitor individual actions. The bill passed the Senate 72-23."
- from http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/26/politics/main20066686.shtml
Here's to the crazy ones
Go Skynet go!
Apparently our government has forgotten about fax machines. Instead we probably spent half a million on that autopen device. For 8 bucks a month you can straight from your computer. DHL does overnight deliveries if it has to be there fast. Really the application of the autopen device seems futile. DHL would charge about 50USD each direction.. Seems like both of these are better options. That being said, its really unfortunate that he was allowed to do this. The patriot act should be expired.
--- Always remember. 99.36% of all statistics are inaccurate.
Last night marked the day a robot granted the same powers as the President authorized other robots (wiretapping machines) to have control over some part of citizens' lives (to covertly monitor them without their consent).
NPR did a nice little story about this today. Talks about what the Constitution says vs what it means. http://www.npr.org/2011/05/27/136717719/obama-wields-his-autopen
Ascii artist &
So worst case here, the PATRIOT Act renewal didn't take effect but will soon.
A bill that extends a law doesn't copy the law into a new law, it merely amends the expiration date that is written in the existing law. You can't amend a law that has expired, and a bill that is implicitly signed due to sitting for 10 days is not retroactive to when it was forwarded to the President, so it would have effectively become useless had it not been signed last night.
News-anchor?
ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
Language is very maleable.
For instance, choosing to be called "Dear Leader" can be sold as an act of self-abasement.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
Maybe he just didn't want his picture taken while signing this bill.
Can you blame him? Shit like this makes me think that we're losing the so-called war on terror
Our culture doesn't get smarter, it just finds new ways of being retarded.
Actually, the only point to a signature is to offer a degree of nonrepudiation. It doesn't matter what it is, really, or how it came to be as long as it provides some assurance of an agreement. (In this case, the assurance that the President did intend to approve the law.) If it's reasonably difficult to forge, that's great, that makes it a better signature. But most real signatures are easy to forge as an autopen signature. Lots of signatures these days are digital -- and not the cryptographic kind, but the "you signed on a digital input device" kind. Back in the day, lots of signatures were just an "X". As long as it can successfully be used to argue that the person showed intent, it's a reasonable signature.
The Bush administration Justice Dept reviewed this, and while ultimately Bush decided to manually sign whatever bill they were discussing, the JP had produced a 20+ page justification that it WAS perfectly fine - the point was that the president had DECIDED to authorize the bill, not mechanically how he signed it. For example, the Constitution states that if he isn't going to sign it, he must return it - and nobody expects him to act like a process server, trying to 'catch' a congressman to literally return the bill unsigned.
-Styopa
Questioning the constitutionality of the way a bill gets signed that by itself is about as unconstitutional as a bill can get...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
And we don't need the real Obama at all.
... so the president can find out what's in it!
"They let me sign checks with a rubber stamp!" -H. Simpson.
MSIE: The world's most standards-complaint web browser.
In the end it really doesn't matter whether the autopen counts as a signature or not because the Constitution has the following to say:
"If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law."
So even if the autopen didn't count as a formal signature, when ten days had passed and the bill was not returned to Congress with his objections it would have become law by default anyway, so in the worst case that would mean that the Patriot act was out of effect for ten days and then immediately resumed.
Snarkiness is inversely proportional to wisdom because it emphasizes feeling right rather than being right.
I smell BS. If someone ever tries to charge Bush and/or Obama for blatantly violating their oaths of office and the constitution, Obama will be able to say he didn't technically sign the bill into law and can not be held liable.
Yes, but the USAPATRIOT act would already have expired before those 10 days were up, and they can't extend an expired act. They'd have to run through the process of passing the law over again.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
He could have just as easily had GWB come back to sign it, this is his third term anyways. President Lawnchair isn't doing anything of his own design.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
So the idea is that if this backfires as the campaign gets moving, 'hey i really didn't sign it, vote for me'.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
During Jerry Brown's first term as California's governor, his lieutenant governor, Mike Curb, would sign bills in his absence. Most memorable was the fact that the republican lieutenant governor would sign bills that the democratic governor would have never signed.
And that, right there, is the point!
They want to keep their seats by doing what the people _that_voted_for_them_to_be_their_representatives_in_congress_ wanted?
How very undemocratic!
Because the for President Reagan is President.
It is disrespectful to the person refer to the Person of the President as Mr.. Also where pieces are about that President's time in office it is also very disrespectful of the Office of the President to refer to a former holder of that office without the title that goes with it. Respect the office and the title, if not the person. A little respect costs very little and gives alot.
What the hell? There's plenty of avenues for fighting against the PATRIOT act. Why would anyone base an argument around some stupid triviality like how the president signed the paper? That doesn't matter. And everyone can see that it's a stupid argument, no matter if it is correct or not.
Opposing the President is racism. Didn't you get the memo?
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Why do members of congress have to be present to be sworn in? Why Isn't telepresense (Ala C-SPAN) good enough? What is the difference?
" Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it becomes a Law, be presented to the President of the United States; If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it"
It says he shall sign... not a fricking robot.
It would be the ultimate validation of the existance of karma if USG lost a supreme court challenge to the patroit act over this.