Nokia Issues Profit Warning

jones_supa submitted an article in the Guardian. From the article "Shares in the Finnish phone maker Nokia plunged by 15% on Tuesday as the company warned that it may make no profit on phone sales in the quarter to the end of June, and that overall phone sales will be 'substantially below' its earlier forecast of €6.1bn to €6.6bn. Carolina Milanesi, mobile phones analyst for the research company Gartner, said Tuesday's warnings could mark the low point for Nokia, which has not made a loss in its handset division for more than a decade."

Comments

SEE ALSO:

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Free Software Faces a Test With Qt

Ka-poof!

Re:SEE ALSO:

[Anonymous Coward]

I have full faith that KDE, Opera, or somebody will continue Qt but it probably won't have the quality and diversity that it does now.

Sad because QtCreator is the closest open-source IDE comparable to Visual Studio. I use it whenever I'm not using vi on UNIX'y systems (I still use Visual Studio on Windows though).

Re:SEE ALSO:

[Anonymous Coward]

have you tried eclipse with windowbuilder? Blows vs and qtcreator away.

Re:SEE ALSO:

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt Opera will do anything, as they ditched Qt a few versions ago in their browser.

Re:SEE ALSO:

[pandrijeczko]

There's a written agreement that some KDE foundation somewhere can take over the ownership of Qt if development stops from Nokia. It is not an issue.

And for the record, I don't like KDE much anyway, I'm a Gnome bloke through-and-through, but the truth is the truth.

Re:SEE ALSO:

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah right! Quoting another idiot as proof that Qt is "Ka-poof" gives your argument such unquestionable credibility, it is beyond reproach. It is too bad the proof says otherwise. How about checking out how "dead" and "deprecated" Qt is before first posting a link to a complete rubbish ??

Re:SEE ALSO:

[RobbieThe1st]

*sigh*.
It's not like anythings going to /go away/... At /worst/ new features might not be added, but the stuff you know and love will still be around, probably for decades.

And more than likely it will continue as before, as there are plenty of commercial backerd who still need/want it.

Re:SEE ALSO:

[scorp1us]

The author of your linked-to article is a moron. Qt is by far approaching it s best and most useful stage yet. Elop chose poorly, but lets face it, the board put him in to make the decision that he did. Meego was not as refind as iOS or Android, but wther is WP7. But you know, you get $10B for sucking from the MS teet, kinda makes it a no-brainer.

Still, Qt and Meego advance. I was bummed by the Nokia announcement, but really, the coolest stuff ever in Qt has happened in the last couple months.

I think Nokia will fill the contractual obligations to get the $10B and then go back to Qt/Meego.

Re:SEE ALSO:

[davester666]

Great. So now some intern in a basement at Nokia is now in charge of development.

Re:SEE ALSO:

[DrXym]

WindowBuilder is good and certainly better than nothing but as is common with Java visual editors, it is very easy to confuse, especially if you attempt relative layouts. Relative layouts are so frustrating to do with elements sticking to the wrong siblings that usually it's easier to avoid them altogether.

Java desperately needs something equivalent to partial classes, or a declarative UI language, or at least an enforced MVP pattern because these editors can be confused or broken easily because they generate code into the same file that users are editing by hand.

Re:SEE ALSO:

[marcosdumay]

Seeing how they just didn't get $6 billion in a quarter because of that deal, I'd like to ask how many quarters are they expecting to spend filling their contractual obligations with MS.

Kicking themselves yet?

[guspasho]

I bet that now they wish they never made that deal with The Devil Microsoft.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[Megor1]

Well since they arent using anything from MS yet it would seem what they were doing before wasn't very profitable.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[Citizen of Earth]

When they finally do, they'll be discovering that the other big manufacturers have Windows phones, too. I'll bet that'll be a big shock to them.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[Barbara, not Barbie]

When Nokia made their deal with Microsoft, they basically told the world "Don't buy any of our current phones because we're orphaning them."

Remember, they said that they would be switching ALL their phones to WP7. Would you lock yourself into a long-term contract for an orphan phone?

Microsoft wasn't stupid - they could foresee that Nokia share value would collapse - by next year, they'll be able to buy Nokia outright for a lot less than the money they gave them.

"Coming soon - The Microsoft X-Phone - it works great with your X-Box!"

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[synthesizerpatel]

It seems more likely to me that the decision to partner with Microsoft was because they knew they wouldn't be making a profit and something had to change.

I think the real reason they're not making a profit is their phones are so dreadfully out of date with what people want now that they aren't selling as well. Nokia's had a branding and model issue for quite some time - go to nokia.com and see how many different phones you can find. Different colors, shapes, too many options. Too many OSs, no clear dev schemes for third parties.

Compare that against apple's previous 'We have one phone that comes in black' and current 'We have one phone that comes in black or white'.

First and foremost, Nokia is losing money because of Nokia.

Secondly Apple / Android is why Nokia is losing money.

Thirdly, Microsoft is why Nokia will continue to lose money.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[Kjella]

No, this is why they signed a deal with the devil. Everybody has been taking a crack at Nokia lately and they haven't been able to deal a single decent blow in return, iPhone and Android have been eating the aging Symbian for lunch and the Maemo/Meego replacements haven't been ready. They could of course become the latecomer to Android, but so many companies now make good Android phones they'd be sure to disappoint. So they went to bed with Microsoft, the market already then realized it was a mark of desperation sinking their stock price. Now we learn it's actually worse. I figure the layoffs are about to begin and who do you think that will be, the Microsoft Phone developers or the Qt developers?

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Assuming things is risky. Here you're assuming that they actually will ship a phone someday. Given the history of these relationships that's not exactly a safe bet.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[pandrijeczko]

They actually had no choice in the matter.

They had sat on their backsides and done nothing for years, and when they finally realised it, the one realistic option of forgetting about their own in-house phone OS and going with Android (like Motorola did) was something they refused to do because the Nokia name would have been absorbed into the Android eco-structure with a dilution of their brand name.

Microsoft needed a phone manufacturer for Windows Mobile (or whatever it's called now) and Nokia needed an OS - plus the Nokia name would stand out still.

Nokia were a great mobile phone manufacturer who completely ignored smartphones from the outset - so they were in deep shit even before the Microsoft partnership.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[Hognoxious]

Not as much as Microsoft do.

Major LOLZ.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[IorDMUX]

Thirdly, Microsoft is why Nokia will continue to lose money.

Which makes me (and others in my field) wonder... When is Microsoft planning on scooping up Nokia?

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[RightSaidFred99]

Yeah, you seem to have the cause and the symptom confused there, dude.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[Dracos]

Between two and six quarters from now. They'll let Nokia mostly bleed out before the "I don't want to go on the cart" scene happens.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[tukang]

I know it's fashionable to blame Microsoft around here but I seriously doubt that Nokia's sales have suffered because of their deal with Microsoft. Most of their customers probably don't even know about the deal with Microsoft. I think it's far more likely that their sales are suffering because their current phones simply aren't appealing to consumers, and that's probably the reason they decided to "orphan" their current phones. In other words, sales aren't bad because they orphaned their phones, it's the other way around.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nokia's had a branding and model issue for quite some time - go to nokia.com and see how many different phones you can find. Different colors, shapes, too many options. Too many OSs, no clear dev schemes for third parties.

Choice doesn't prevent sales, as a whole, there are tons of companies selling tons of phones giving the customers many choices and overall, phones still sell very well. There are tons of Android phones from many different companies and carriers and they are selling STRONG. Other than Apple diehards, not many people start their phone search with a specific manufacturer and then look at only their models.
Nokia would not let go of Meego and Symbian and they are not popular or competitive compared to IOS and Android. Same thing with Blackberry, Palm and Windows phones.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[Xacid]

I'm probably not the standard consumer - but it's definitely going to be a factor for why I wont be touching Nokia. And I've stuck with them since I first had a cell phone. I really, really like their hardware - they take most of the abuse I can throw at it. I currently have an e71x which is overall a fairly decent phone, but it's getting dated compared to the options available today.

The degree of my loyalty to their product is noted by the fact I'd almost seriously consider trying out the latest Win Mobile platform in order to retain the Nokia hardware - however, my contract renews in two months. Do I just snag whatever Nokia is offering now or do I wait some undisclosed time until their hardware has Win Mobile on it? Probably not. Most likely I'll just get some android variant and then maybe reconsider in 2 more years.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dilution of their brand name? What happens to their brand name if the entire company dies?

They're being squeezed at the low end by Asian brands and squeezed at the high end by American brands. That doesn't leave much.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[jo42]

I seriously doubt that Nokia's sales have suffered because of their deal with Microsoft

I'd blame the 'roid platform and the iThing. Not to mention utterly incompetent upper management at Nokia.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[The Dawn Of Time]

I guarantee Microsoft haters are a vanishingly small percentage of the overall market. There's just not that level of animosity outside of nerd circles, and even then, it's greatly diminished from the days of yore.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Would you lock yourself into a long-term contract for an orphan phone?

95 percent of carrier branded android phones are "orphan phones". So, yes?

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[Xacid]

Agreed. I actually enjoy a lot of MS's products. I feel like an endangered species existing on slashdot sometimes. It's really just the period of an obvious transition that's going to be fairly painful for the company. The question is - will they pull out of it and still be relevant?

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[elPetak]

Android sucks, it's just that people hadn't realised it yet.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

They had no choice but to get into bed with MS. That I agree with. Android would have been a poor choice.

Nokia invented the smartphone. Though they wouldn't be considered so 'smart' nowadays.

Qt is safe. Nokia is also interested in "disruptive technologies". Do I have to paint a picture?

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[sunspot42]

And then Apple will swoop in and buy them up right under Microsoft's nose.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[Serious Callers Only]

When Nokia made their deal with Microsoft, they basically told the world "Don't buy any of our current phones because we're orphaning them."

More importantly perhaps, they told developers considering one of their many mobile platforms not to bother with any of them, and to focus on offerings from other companies instead. For their smartphones and plans for an ovi store that will be the kiss of death.

Nokia will coast for another few years as they have a huge install base and dominate the low-end, but when higher end phones start moving down, they will have a real problem, and being in hock to Microsoft is going to be part of that problem.

As for Qt, I think Microsoft will be hostile to it from the start, and encourage Nokia to burn their boats (and they have a place man at the head of Nokia to implement this). So the outlook for Qt is not good - it will probably be starved of cash and developers and left slowly to die. Best case would be if Nokia spins it off again right now, before they are taken over by MS or go into a death spiral.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[Anne Thwacks]

Mod parent +10, sensible

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

last time nokia issued profit warnings our company's headcount had to be halved, we make industrial automation mostly for nokia and suddenly when the crsis hit there was no more work, nothing to make or design, people came to work, sat on their arses or 8 hours and went home, lasted several months like that, and then we had to make layoffs and lost half our employees. our company is stronger now tho with more diverce client base and product set so i think we will be alright this time even if nokia goes down

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[md65536]

Why would apple want nokia? Do they want a piece of the "phones no one buys" market?

Seriously though, would it be to improve tech aspects that nokia does better than apple?
Or buy out a competitor only to destroy it?

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

They had sat on their backsides and done nothing for years, and when they finally realised it, the one realistic option of forgetting about their own in-house phone OS and going with Android (like Motorola did) was something they refused to do because the Nokia name would have been absorbed into the Android eco-structure with a dilution of their brand name.

While I agree with your general consensus, you seem to be forgetting that Nokia had products based on its own Linux based OS,dubbed Maemo, since 2005. While the Maemo people were hard at work, producing Fremantle (the N900 OS) and later working on Meego, the Nokia management was dissing their efforts in favor of the legacy Symbian platform. Maemo was badly spoken of by Nokia management in interviews and resources were insufficient to keep development at pace.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[ChunderDownunder]

patents

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[AliasMarlowe]

Between two and six quarters from now. They'll let Nokia mostly bleed out before the "I don't want to go on the cart" scene happens.

They're already being carried to it, bleats to the contrary are irrelevant.

We used to get almost exclusively Nokia phones (a few Blackberries for upper level PHBs), but in the last month or so any Nokia phones due for a refresh have been replaced mostly with HTC Android models. The number of employees exceeds 10^5 worldwide, so we're not a small operation. About half of the personnel in Europe have smartphones, but mobile phones are less common in the Americas (probably due to rip-off service prices). Don't know about policy in Asia-Pacific.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[DrXym]

I bet that now they wish they never made that deal with The Devil Microsoft.

I guess the time to draw that conclusion is next year when there are some handsets out that use MS phone software. If they still don't sell Nokia is in deep shit. If sales pick up and Nokia launches a brace of tablets & other WP7 devices to huge acclaim then it will look smart.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[dbIII]

It made it into the global print media and not just sites like this.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[mcvos]

For Apple, the only reason would be patents. They don't want Nokia's market share. Microsoft wants the patents as well as the market share (or what little of that remains once they finally buy them).

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[sjwt]

These are the same consumers who buy IPhones because they are made by Apple.

And quite often with out really comparing with other alternatives.

They buy what they are told.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[sjwt]

These are the same consumers who buy IPhones because they are made by Apple.

And quite often with out really comparing with other alternatives.

They buy what they are told, and most likely dont even know about this, or the ramifications for what they are buying or have just bought.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[sjwt]

would that be Nokias 30% market share that is still 6 times lager then Apples 5%?

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[sjwt]

Nokia's problem?

The Communicator.

Nokia 9000,
Nokia 9500
Nokia E90.

Those where my last 3 Phones, and none of them could be bought outside of a small window, or at a decent price on a contract, at lest here in .AU When a customer wants to buy a phone, and they cant get the model they want though the stores, the partners or any shops what do they think will happen?

Those phones where fantastic, and held a high resale vale for a long time due to demand, but would Nokia make more available? No, most of the shops I went looking for them in didn't even know of them at all, the ones that did would only offer company contracts, and I am still hesitant on paying over a grand for a phone though Ebay.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[1s44c]

And then Apple will swoop in and buy them up right under Microsoft's nose.

That would actually be pretty funny. I'm not sure what apple would get from the deal though.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[1s44c]

Why would apple want nokia? Do they want a piece of the "phones no one buys" market?

Seriously though, would it be to improve tech aspects that nokia does better than apple?
Or buy out a competitor only to destroy it?

Nokia have the basics of cell phone design down to a fine art. Apple is still new to this game and makes cock-ups. Remember the ariel problems?

Apple and Nokia could result in a killer new iphone.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[buchanmilne]

iPhone and Android have been eating the aging Symbian for lunch and the Maemo/Meego replacements haven't been ready.

It seems that the Maemo replacements *are* ready, except for a tussle with Intel about whether they can be called "Meego compatible", "Meego ready" or otherwise use the Meego brand. Since Intel now employs two thirds of the Technical Steering Group which makes this decision (Nokia's representative moved to Intel after the Nokia MS announcement), and Intel isn't happy about the Nokia MS announcement, the fact that the Maemo 6 phones haven't been announced is due to the MS agreement, not that the phones aren't technically ready.

I figure the layoffs are about to begin and who do you think that will be, the Microsoft Phone developers or the Qt developers?

Well, the question is, why are layoffs coming? Because phones aren't selling, after Nokia announced "our current phones are dead, our new phones won't be ready for a while".

While a change was required, announcing a drastic change without having new products on the (3-month) horizon is foolish.

It seems many companies are keen to pick up the Qt developers ...

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[buchanmilne]

I agree on Nokia's unnecessary device proliferation, however not:

Too many OSs, no clear dev schemes for third parties.

Since S^3 (all S^3 phones ship with Qt 4.7) shipped, the dev scheme for all smart phones (including S60v3/S60v5, S^3, Maemo 5 / N900, upcoming Maemo6 or Meego devices) was Qt and Qt Quick. Until the MS agreement, which removed almost all incentive to develop for Symbian.

In the meantime, Qt for Android is coming along nicely ...

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[tbannist]

It's probably both. I would imagine that the sales people at the phone shops know about it, and they'll tell the customers who are looking at Nokia phones, especially if they happen to have some very similar but slightly more profitable phones ready to replace the Nokias.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[UnknowingFool]

According to this recent statement from Nokia, that 30% marketshare is not very profitable right now. That means Nokia makes a lot of cheap phones that make little profit. Apple's 5% on the other hand makes it the most profitable cell phone company in the world. I would suspect that market share means very little to Apple. Patents on the other hand would be worth it to buy Nokia.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[tbannist]

That's quite true, even sociopathic businessmen should know that you don't announce "Our current phones are dead and our new phones won't be ready for a while". Instead, they're supposed to announce "Our old phones are dead, but see this brand new sparkly shiny phone in my hand? It's the new hotness and you want to buy one right now. There's a limited supply so only the first hundred people who line up on the right here with cash in hand will get the best phone the world has ever seen. No pushing or shoving please, the people in the back will just have to accept that they won't get the world's best phone today."

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[kelemvor4]

I think Symbian is a problem, and Nokia is aware of it. However, I suspect that windows mobile won't be the savior they hope it will be. I was just looking at the e7 phone. Other than it running symbian it's a nice looking phone; possibly preferable to my Motorola droid2 global. Unfortunately, I am not going to be any more interested in going to windows mobile/Ce again after the recent changes/drm that MS added so for me the shift from Symbian to Microsoft is not an improvement at all.

I guess they're trying to differentiate themselves by going with windows mobile, but they sold 124 million phones last quarter and didn't turn a profit... I don't see how switching to an OS with higher costs (licensing) helps them turn a profit. IMO they've got some huge operational problems to overcome.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[david_thornley]

Microsoft hate has nothing to do with this. Even if you think MS is the best thing since sliced peanut butter, buying a Nokia phone right now means a two-year investment in a system supported by a shaky company with an unclear strategy that may not actually involve continued support. That's a turn-off right there. (Also, of you are a MS lover, and really want a WP7 phone, you're not going to buy anything Nokia makes that doesn't include WP7.)

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[tehcyder]

Microsoft wasn't stupid - they could foresee that Nokia share value would collapse - by next year, they'll be able to buy Nokia outright for a lot less than the money they gave them.

If MS were that clever, then surely they wouldn't have given them more money than they thought they would be worth in a year's time? And why would they want to chuck money at a failing company anyway?
I must be missing something, but I don't see what MS's cunning plan here is supposed to be.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[tehcyder]

I guarantee Microsoft haters are a vanishingly small percentage of the overall market. There's just not that level of animosity outside of nerd circles, and even then, it's greatly diminished from the days of yore.

There was only ever actual animosity towards Microsoft in nerd circles, the vast majority of people couldn't care less about who makes software as long as their computer works.
This is why the inability of Linux to out-sell Windows as a consumer OS is so frustrating, it's not as though 99% of consumers ever had any great loyalty to or love of Microsoft in the first place.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[tehcyder]

Even if you think MS is the best thing since sliced peanut butter

I'd stick to car metaphors if I were you.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[tehcyder]

Android sucks, it's just that people hadn't realised it yet.

Your carefully reasoned and almost grammatical argument has won me over.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[tehcyder]

Compare that against apple's previous 'We have one phone that comes in black' and current 'We have one phone that comes in black or white'.

Having a wide choice of models/specifications/options/colours doesn't seem to bother car manufacturers much.
Also, have you noticed that the first thing most people do when they buy an iPhone is get a coloured case/protector?

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[Patch86]

If anything, it's the opposite of MS-hate- the inclination not to buy one of their current (non-MS) phones as they are already out-of-date (even their own company has disowned them) and instead wait for the Nokia+MS phones (which could be a year or more away yet). Or buy an Android/Apple/WinMo phone that's already on the market (from a non-Nokia company).

No-one has any reason to buy a Symbian or MeeGo phone now. And it's a long wait until Nokia has something to replace it.

Re:Kicking themselves yet?

[Stephen Samuel]

If you're an MS hater, you're not going to be buying Nokia phones because they're moving to MS Windows. If you're an MS lover, you're not going to buy Nokia phones (yet) because they don't yet have Windows on them. If you're MS agnostic, you're not going to buy Nokia phones because the current crop is going to be orphaned a year down the road (actually -- they've already been effectively orphaned).

No matter how you slice it, Nokia comes up a loser until at least the end of the year.

Well duh

[ozmanjusri]

You partner with Microsoft, you pay the price.

It's been that way for decades.

Re:Well duh

[the linux geek]

How is the lagging Symbian business, which has been rotting for years, remotely related to Microsoft?

Re:Well duh

[recoiledsnake]

You partner with Microsoft, you pay the price.

It's been that way for decades.

Like HP, Acer, Dell, Sony, Asus, HTC and tens of thousands of ISV's ? Not to mention that it was Microsoft which forced the prices of computers down(leading to the x86 takeover of the server environment on which Linux thrives) due to licensing to multiple OEMs so they became affordable to the general public and the rest of the world. If you think Apple's prices are high now, imagine what they would be if there was minimal competition.

Nokia's situation is in a major because not being able to implement Meego/Maemo(Linux, if it needs reminding) properly inspite of throwing a thousand devs and billions into it and the products were all Open Source. How is that Microsoft's fault? If anything, it shows the dangers of the fallacies of expecting FOSS to be a magic cure-all without proper UI and architectural design etc. According to the wisdom on Slashdot,, A team of ninja developers descend by magic on any FOSS project and then make it the best, surpassing all the other offerings.

I thought the discussion might be around the lessons of why they failed, but it didn't take a few minutes before the regulars descend into a 'M$' hating circle jerk.

Oops,sorry, didn't mean to step into the selective memoried Slashdot bitchfest.

Re:Well duh

[pandrijeczko]

I'm no MS fan but you are wrong in this instance. Nokia did not want to become "just another Android smartphone company" for reasons of pride in the brand name, they had no choice but to go with Microsoft.

Yes, the story of this partnership is just beginning but both companies do NEED each other if they are going to do anything in the smartphone arena.

Re:Well duh

[Microlith]

Like HP, Acer, Dell, Sony, Asus, HTC and tens of thousands of ISV's

The ISVs were bullied plenty by Microsoft. The past 10 years haven't been as bad because MS was under the microscope.

Not to mention that it was Microsoft which forced the prices of computers down(leading to the x86 takeover of the server environment on which Linux thrives) due to licensing to multiple OEMs so they became affordable to the general public and the rest of the world.

Yeah, MICROSOFT did that. No one else, no other reason, but MICROSOFT. Thank you, MICROSOFT, for without you computing would have been impossible.

If you think Apple's prices are high now, imagine what they would be if there was minimal competition.

I think that without MS there would be more competition and more diversity.

Nokia's situation is in a major because not being able to implement Meego/Maemo(Linux, if it needs reminding) properly inspite of throwing a thousand devs and billions into it and the products were all Open Source.

So, Nokia is incompetent. There's nothing new here. They had an awesome set of technologies growing internally yet they dropped the ball completely.

If anything, it shows the dangers of the fallacies of expecting FOSS to be a magic cure-all without proper UI and architectural design etc. According to the wisdom on Slashdot,, A team of ninja developers descend by magic on any FOSS project and then make it the best, surpassing all the other offerings.

No, that's just you getting a FOSS hatefest rolling. We've seen Microsoft destroy partners before, with FOSS the only one who can undermine your success is yourself. Nokia's horribly thick bureaucracy populated by the old guard who didn't want to see things change refused to allow the company to bring up something new on the high end, stymieing and stalling things until it was too late.

Re:Well duh

[Anonymous Coward]

Nokia did not want to become "just another Android smartphone company"

Can somebody please explain to me how they aren't "just another Windows Phone company" now? At least with Android, they could have truly differentiated themselves and replaced the market with Ovi. If they think they are going to be the only ones selling Windows Phone, somebody should probably mention that to the manufacturers like HTC and Samsung that are already selling WP7 devices as we speak! And we're led to believe Steve Jobs is the only one wielding a Reality Distortion Field.

Re:Well duh

[RightSaidFred99]

Don't be silly. When you make an outdated product and don't keep it cutting edge, you pay the price. Then you go crawling to Microsoft out of desperation. Microsoft didn't cause Nokia's problems, Nokia did.

Re:Well duh

[pandrijeczko]

My experience is that five years ago, if you asked someone in the street what mobile phone they own, they would have said "Nokia" or "Motorola".

Ask them the question today and they will say "Android", "iPhone" or "Blackberry" - so in the case of Android, the manufacturer brand name has been very diluted, if not lost completely.

This may well be the case with Microsoft also, but at the moment Windows mobile penetration is very small anywhere.

Re:Well duh

[recoiledsnake]

>The ISVs were bullied plenty by Microsoft. The past 10 years haven't been as bad because MS was under the microscope.

Name more than a handful of ISVs that were bullied by MS apart from the few standard ones referenced like DR-DOS and DRVSPACE. Compare that number to the number of companies that hit it big (and still do) by being ISVs. And name other companies that have been friendlier to partners regarding backwards compatibility etc.

>Yeah, MICROSOFT did that. No one else, no other reason, but MICROSOFT. Thank you, MICROSOFT, for without you computing would have been impossible.

High on snark and strawman arguments, low on content. How about acknowledging that Microsoft's model of being only a software platform helped competition in hardware and drive down costs, for example AMD wouldn't exist now, as Apple has only 1 CPU supplier.

I think that without MS there would be more competition and more diversity.

How about elaborating how the computing nirvana you envision would've come about instead of silly handwaving?

No, that's just you getting a FOSS hatefest rolling

Pointing out that FOSS is not a panacea for companies is hatefest trolling?

Re:Well duh

[Anonymous Coward]

Ask them the question today and they will say "Android", "iPhone" or "Blackberry" - so in the case of Android, the manufacturer brand name has been very diluted, if not lost completely.

For 2 of the three phones you list, there is only one manufacturer so of course people will say that name when you ask them what kind of phone they have. I'd be willing to bet that people are much more likely to be able to name the manufacturer of their Android phone than a Windows Phone 7 device.

Your "explanation" doesn't pass the sniff test. Grasping at straws isn't going to save Nok. Actually, it's most likely, nothing will.

Re:Well duh

[Locutus]

I might believe what the Microsoft Executive come Nokia CEO said except he said Google was a competitor. That my friend is a Microserf talking because Google does not compete with their phone hardware partners. On top of that, Microsoft has put the screws down on hardware vendors building Windows Phone 7 phones so there's little hardware _and_ software creativity to add( ie value add ). There was just a story about a PC OEM saying Microsoft is clamping down on them too. So I call bullshit on Elop and why they claimed they could not compete in the Android market space and had no choice but Microsoft.

My first thought when I read the article headline went like this, 'so this is working out just the way Microsoft planned and they'll soon be able to purchase Nokia for next to nothing.' Microsoft partners almost always end up as a pile of bones on the side of the road.

LoB

Re:Well duh

[cbope]

Rotting for years is a massive mis-statement. While Symbian has more or less lost the smartphone market, it still dominates the feature phone market, of which Nokia was and still likely is king of. In developing markets they are still leaders with number of devices sold. The problem is that Nokia has traditionally put more money into the hardware and this is leading to the current situation where they are eating too much of their own margin in emerging markets. It used to be that their high-margin smartphone business balanced this out and partially subsidized the feature phone market to some extent, but now that basically everyone has abandoned Nokia's smartphone platforms thanks to the MS deal, it's really hitting them hard.

Don't put it past them, a comeback is still very possible but in the short term they will bleed quite a bit during this transition period.

Re:Well duh

[justaguy516]

Speaking from the Indian perspective. Nokia is busy losing the cheap handset market, initially to Samsung and recently to local manufacturers (Micromax, Lava, Videocon, etc.). Any one of these have offerings at about half the price of the equivalent Nokia phone. In the smart phone business, they are being wiped out both at the low end (Samsung, HTC) and the high end (Samsung, Apple, HTC Android). My wife recently bought a low-end smartphone and I advised her against Nokia; she ended up buying a HTC Wildfire, over the Sony Ericsson Experia. Nokia is busy losing their shirt all over the world.

Re:Well duh

[richlv]

mm, if they wanted to be distinctive from other phone makers, they probably should have gone with meego platform and developed cool, unique, usable and highly customisable applications.

Make a deal with the Devil; Get Burned!

[VortexCortex]

Whoops, unfortunately they didn't take the cues from Novel -- MS is the Devil!

Low point or not

[high_rolla]

Will be interesting to see if this is their low point or if it is heading down to their low point. The other manufacturers are putting out some pretty schmick Android phones at the moment and the iPhone 5 should be released (or at least talked about) in the not too distant future. Nokia's competition seems to be strengthening while it's away regrouping.

Re:Low point or not

[pandrijeczko]

I'm no MS fan, I'm a Linux bloke, but I heard a fact today that made me think that there's "life in the old dog yet".

Apparently, Microsoft Kinect is currently the fastest selling electronic device ever - yep, faster selling than iPhones, iPads, Android phones, etc. etc.

Yep, there's no getting away from the fact that Microsoft have made some blunders in recent years and I personally won't mourn their passing too much - but don't dismiss them just yet.

Re:Low point or not

[symbolset]

That author had some stunningly forward looking observations back then. For example, here and here. He's not always coherent, but it's still great work.

Nah

[OverlordQ]

They're just copying the Microsoft XBox model, sell at a loss and hopefully make it up elsewhere.

Re:Nah

[Osgeld]

yea well the xbox scheme (why is it called this? almost all game consoles have done this) has the advantage of only running licensed software

Little to do with MS.

[mirix]

TFA says it's mostly due to them getting cut at both ends. By the Chinese on low price phones, which Nokia has traditionally sold an ass-ton of, world wide. And by android and apple on the top end. (I think this is a lot more in the US than the ROTW, but US is a big smartphone market...)

Kind of a shame really, I was looking forward to more N900-esque phones, but I don't think that will be happening anymore. I'll also miss smartphones with buttons on them.

"It remains to be seen how low [market share] could go, but for smartphones we are talking about going under 20% this year." Only two years ago Nokia had a 40% share of the smartphone market, but it was passed in the first quarter of this year by Android, with 32%. Nokia had 24% and Apple 18%.

Re:Little to do with MS.

[Anonymous Coward]

Die Nokia Die!

I've concluded only free software companies like Redhat have any hope. All other companies which buy out the smaller free software companies only ruin them and end up failing in the long term. Not because free software isn't profitable. Rather because these companies are simply desperate and have no solid direction. The CEO's are in it for the short term gain and have no interest in the long term success of the company.

Re:Little to do with MS.

[SoftwareArtist]

I wouldn't call that "little to do with MS". The only reason they're having trouble competing with Android is that they don't themselves make Android phones. Instead they have their own smartphone OS that can't compete, and they're switching from that to a different smartphone OS that also shows no sign of being able to compete. If they began making Android phones, they would then be competing strictly on hardware. That would have been a bad thing when their OS was a positive differentiator. But today it's become a major liability. Having the same OS as everyone else would now be a big improvement for them.

The problem, of course, is that they can't do that. They've signed a contract with MS agreeing to use WP exclusively.

Re:Little to do with MS.

[owlstead]

They are doing pretty bad in western Europe too, it's certainly not just the US.

Re:Little to do with MS.

[Microlith]

Having the same OS as everyone else would now be a big improvement for them.

It would also have put them under Google's thumb. Had they not been weighed down by ineffective bureaucracy and allowed the Internet Tablet teams to execute with more support than they had with the N900, they might have had something worthwhile.

But alas, the Symbian teams kept pumping out more terrible devices. And with Elop on board I'd be shocked if it wasn't decided to move to WP7 as soon as he walked through the doors, but just delayed to prevent panic.

Re:Little to do with MS.

[Error27]

All the money is really at the high end. Nokia went from owning 29% to owning 24% of the smart phone market. Everyone predicted that they would lose a lot of the market, but I don't think anyone predicted it would be that bad, that quickly.

When Nokia decided to switch to Windows, they knew that they would have to limp along selling their old phones this year. People were obviously going to buy fewer phones and they were going to want them at a cheaper price because they're EOL. Hopefully next year when the first Windows phones came out, they'd be able to make money again.

It was a huge gamble to throw away a year for something that wasn't tested. It seems like customers aren't willing to wait a year for a Windows phone.

Re:Little to do with MS.

[blind biker]

It could easily have to do with MS (or better say, Elop's deal with MS): I sure as hell wouldn't buy a Symbian smartphone, once Elop announced Symbian is on the chopping block. Would you?

Re:Little to do with MS.

[Paradise Pete]

Having the same OS as everyone else would now be a big improvement for them.

Not a lasting one. Long term they'd be selling the same commodity as everyone else. There's no margin in that. That's why Apple will continue to make the huge piles o' cash even while Android phones outsell them. A large number of Android phone sales will be simply "I don't want an iPhone. What else have you got?" And the "what else" would be some random Android phone. At least with WP7 they have some small chance of differentiating their product. Of course by then they will be a division of Microsoft. Nokia's market cap dropped today by 0.5 Skypes. Soon it will be so cheap that Microsoft's clandestine acquisition scheme can be completed.

Re:Little to do with MS.

[Atomic Fro]

It seems like customers aren't willing to wait a year for a Windows phone.

You have it wrong. Nokia's customers don't want Windows Phone.

MS hate from a bunch of idiots...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh grow up all you Microsoft haters. They had nothing more to do with Nokia loss in sales then the Skype outage a little while ago.
Hate on Micorosft hasn't been deserving or relevant for quite some time, and you missed that bandwagon and are now walking along the road of shame.

It's embarrassing to read those type of comments, and just makes me sigh in sadness for those people who still thinks it's clever to rip on Microsoft.

FFS get over yourselves.

Re:MS hate from a bunch of idiots...

[Anonymous Coward]

Any company that can only compete through underhanded backroom tactics instead of delivering a solid product deserves all of the hate it can receive. Microsoft hasn't changed one iota.

Re:MS hate from a bunch of idiots...

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem to mistake the business world as a happy-go-lucky place where anyone gives a fuck what nerds think makes a "solid product."

Sorry that Windows is still eating the lunch of your preferred platform. Maybe you'll get over it this decade?

Re:Deal with the Devel

[Anonymous Coward]

Goatse link.

Haha!

[ickleberry]

They're a burning now! Serves them right for how they mothballed Maemo and instead threw all their efforts behind two shite operating systems; Symbian and WM. Used em both and I can say WM sucks considerably more than the dead horse that is symbian.

Re:Haha!

[mirix]

A lot of the Symbian hate is justified, it's a bit of a pain to develop for and things like that (although new symbian releases support Qt right? should make things easier).

But symbian has some nice features too. Like being designed ground up for phones, so you get things like having much longer battery life - days, not hours. Try that with an iphone or android.

Re:Haha!

[recoiledsnake]

Are you talking about WP7 or WM ? I am having a hard time imagining WP7 to be much worse than Symbian.

Re:Haha!

[The Dawn Of Time]

It's easy to have a phone last days when it's basically unusable and hence unused.

Re:Haha!

[peppepz]

And still, even if unused, my Android phone doesn't last two days.

Re:Haha!

[The Dawn Of Time]

Really? My iPhone goes for about 4 days if I kill the wifi and avoid playing games and don't go out of service too often. Granted, that is sort of artificial since I constantly have an urge to play some game or another.

Not Microsoft. They have the GM problem

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

The TFA said that, as I've suggested over and over again that cheap Chinese phones are eating their lunch at the low end and Android and iPhone have been eating their lunch at the high end.

They have the GM problem. Being number one doesn't keep you immune from having to still pull a profit.

Granted in future quarters Microsoft is going to probably be an albatross on their necks, but that's not Elop's fault, it's OPK's fault.

Re:Not Microsoft. They have the GM problem

[peppepz]

Except that they were making profits, until their ex-Microsoft CEO declared all their smartphones and development ecosystem obsolete one year before having a replacement, and in contradiction with previous announcements. To the only advantage of Microsoft. Why didn't they wait to have WP phones ready before killing all the others?

I've always bought Nokia phones, but now I wouldn't touch a Symbian phone with a ten foot pole (nor would I suggest anybody to buy one, a role that geeks often play). I frankly can't figure out how they expected anyone buying them under these conditions.

Fortunately I can get one last Maemo/Meego phone before they fade into irrelevance trying to compete with ZTE or Huawei over WP7 phones.

Re:Not Microsoft. They have the GM problem

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Actually, profit from their phone division has been dropping like a stone since 2007.

I'm willing to bet that had Elop not announced Symbian being dead in the water, they'd still be faced with profit problems.

This is OPK's fault, as it has been since the iPhone gave them a giant shellacking back in 07 and Android in 08.

Who's "they"

[ron_ivi]

The CEO? Surely not! I bet he's very confident he'll get his old Microsoft job back plus bonuses in much the same way that Rick Belluzzo was given a President+COO job at Microsoft to thank him for killing PA-RISC and HPUX in favor of NT-on-Itanium (when we was EVP at HP) and killing IRIX and MIPS in favor of NT-on-Itanium when he was CEO of SGI.

The other shareholders? Sure, they got screwed; but they were probably so enamored with how awesome it was to be a microsoft partner that they never noticed.

The employees? They've been wishing that all along.

Re:Deal with the Devel

[Anonymous Coward]

MOD PARENT DOWN - GOAT SE CX

Microsoft is salvation

[SuperKendall]

The Microsoft deal has not kicked in yet.

The problems we see are Nokia without Microsoft.

Microsoft is Nokia's only hope for redemption and a seat back at the top of the market (Android would only have given them the former).

Same happend to their last cell-phone partner.

[ron_ivi]

Same happened to their first cell phone partner
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/01/07/sendo_sues_microsoft_over_secret/

"Microsoft's secret plan was to plunder the small company of its proprietary information, technical expertise, market knowledge, customers and prospective customers," the filing said. "Microsoft gained Sendo's trust and confidence through false promises that Sendo would be its 'go-to-market-partner'."

This information was passed onto low-cost manufacturers in Asia, Sendo alleges. The first Microsoft Smartphone launched in Europe was the Orange SUV, built by Taiwanese firm HTC. It will be interesting to see if this deal is dragged into the case.

Announcing your platform is dead, not good for biz

[guidryp]

How is the lagging Symbian business, which has been rotting for years, remotely related to Microsoft?

When you tell the world you are jumping ship, you can expect many potential customers will as well. Similar to the Osbourne effect.

Re:Don't worry about QT

[Anonymous Coward]

MOD PARENT DOWN - goat se DOT cx LINK!

Re:Don't worry about QT

[Anonymous Coward]

Beware - goatse link!

Beginning of the End

[Anonymous Coward]

This the beginning of the end for Nokia. The company's not been able to answer the competition that American companies like Google and Apple poised to it. The reason for this is that the company's internal processes are not from the IT but traditional manufacturing industries. (All explained in painful detail in this article.) Nokia's only viable products are Qt and Maemo, which were both developed externally outside the so-called "Nokia Process", both of which coincidentally are not part of the current future roadmap (MeeGo is Lost In Action and Qt will not be ported to WP7).

For those who say Elop will give new direction: no, I don't believe it. I am be tempted to raw parallels to Obama: a black horse; lots of hype, but little actual concretion, all while the economy still continues to plummet. My advise for those who own Nokia's shares: hold them until mid-Q4. If there is no takeover bid from Microsoft by November, dump them at whatever price the market is still willing to pay.

Now Playing: The Doors – The End

Re:Beginning of the End

[amiga3D]

I think a Microsoft buyin is a sure bet.

Re:Beginning of the End

[pandrijeczko]

I agree with you.

For years Microsoft have been desperate to get into telecoms so they can link products like Exchange and Outlook properly into instant and multimedia communications. That's why they have the Office Communicator product to provide the linkage across IM, VoIP and (I assume at some point) video.

Most other telecoms companies have invested heavily into SIP (Session Initiation Protocol) which, for those who don't know, is an open protocol that allows messaging/telephony/video endpoints to register and intercommunicate on the Internet.

Skype doesn't use SIP but their own proprietary protocol, though I believe it can and does interface to SIP - and Microsoft bought Skype recently.

One of the last pieces of the puzzle to solve in VoIP telecoms is to do smart stuff with mobile phones, where you can do transparent movement between cellular networks and the Internet, and build all of that into Enterprise telecoms - so, for example, if you are away from your desk and your desk extension phone rings, you can pick the call up on the mobile phone in your pocket, stuff like that.

Clearly, with what Microsoft has been doing and buying in the past few years, they are definitely interested in telecoms and VoIP, partnering or absorbing a company that make cellular handsets would make sense as part of that overall strategy.

Oh what could have been

[arcite]

I always thought it would have been cool for Nokia to partner up with Apple in the pre-iphone days. Apple had the software and UI know-how, Nokia had superior hardware... well, iPhone has gone through many iterations and has progressively become superior to anything Nokia could ever muster. Nokia will rue the day Apple comes out with a $100 iPhone, they'll be relegated to making cheap solar powered 'dumb phones' to sell to developing countries. My current Nokia is a 'dumb-phone' that was made in India, has a 1 inch colour screen, built in radio, and LED flashlight. The phone is functional, nearly indestructible, and cost me about $30. This is Nokia's future.

Re:Oh what could have been

[gmhowell]

Nokia will rue the day Apple comes out with a $100 iPhone, they'll be relegated to making cheap solar powered 'dumb phones' to sell to developing countries.

So Apple will have to double the price of the 3gs? And there are several Droids for ~$100, aren't there?

Not sure about the rest of the world, but in the US, I only see two things keeping non-Droid/non-iOS phones from being 100% of the market. First is that for some people, even a $49 phone is too much. Second is the carriers. Be it from forced pricey contracts or whatever religious mania that has people attracted to non-Verizon/non-AT&T carriers.

Re:Oh what could have been

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not a $49 phone, it's a $449, phone. They just put part of the price on your monthly bill.

1. Requires new two-year AT&T wireless service contract, sold separately to qualified customers; credit check required; must be 18 or older. Existing AT&T customers who want to upgrade from another phone or replace an iPhone 3G or iPhone 3GS should check with AT&T or use www.apple.com/iphone/buy. For those who are not eligible for an early upgrade or who wish to buy iPhone 3GS as a gift, the price is $449. In CA, MA, and RI, sales tax is collected on the unbundled price of iPhone. Service may not be available in all areas or at the signal strength, rates, speeds, or bandwidth as demonstrated. Wi-Fi Internet access required for some features; broadband recommended; fees may apply. Some applications, features, and services are not available in all areas. Visit www.wireless.att.com to check AT&T network coverage in your area. iPhone is configured to work only with wireless service provided by AT&T. Warranty information available at www.apple.com/legal/warranty/iphone. When available, transferring your mobile number to a different service provider will terminate your service with your existing provider; termination fees and other charges may apply. Some features may require added fees. Contact your service provider for more details. Use constitutes acceptance of Apple’s software license agreement and third-party terms located in the iPhone box. Unauthorized modification of your iPhone software violates the software license agreement. Inability to use an iPhone due to unauthorized modifications is not covered under your warranty.

Re:Oh what could have been

[gtall]

That might have worked, but Apple already had a bad experience with an traditional phone maker, Motorola. They recoiled because it was clear that Motorola just didn't get interfaces.

Re:Oh what could have been

[Anonymous Coward]

Retail price, not price subsidized by the carrier. If you think that iPhone really costs $49 you are dreaming.

Symbian phones retail from under $99, so do some Android ones now. Both are crappy, but functional.

Loan Time

[amiga3D]

Maybe they can get Microsoft to prop them up with some money? I'm sure Redmond would like to keep their partner going strong.

Re:Loan Time

[elPetak]

you on crack?
Microsoft only cares about Microsoft.

Re:Loan Time

[peppepz]

But IIRC MS gave Nokia big cash for the Nokia-MS deal of 2/11 anyway.

Maybe MS will pick them up for 8 billion

[strangeattraction]

I'd wait until they are worth the same as Skype:)

Re:Maybe MS will pick them up for 8 billion

[symbolset]

Well if you subtract out their $11.5B in cash and short term investments, Nokia can be had today for $15B. So it's getting close. Your target would put the price at $5.26, or 25 percent off today's closing price. That's easily doable by the end of the year if they keep cranking out the bad news.

And in other news...

[lender3212000]

Atari sales are down. Outdated companies that can't continue to innovate and keep up with their competition become casulaties in a free-market system. End of story.

Re:And in other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

Atari sales can't be down! I just bought the most craptastic terrible console port to pc d&d game ever from them! Daggerdale!

ohhh.... i see.

Nokia is not free of guilt

[paladinsama]

On 2008 they released their online game store called NGAGE 2.0, but a year later they announced they were closing it. They shut down the activation servers earlier this year making it impossible to reinstall anything you legally bought from them. A lot of people usually complain about DRM, well Nokia did the worst use of it by locking out customers from their purchases. If their fate after the Microsoft deal is horrible, they may actually deserve it.

Re:Announcing your platform is dead, not good for

[Sir_Sri]

That problem is that they didn't say 1: we're jumping ship and 2: we're launching WP7 devices within the next 30 days.

Letting symbian die a long slow death is monumentally stupid. They've had time to both think about this decision, and build the partnership with MS (or google), and actually implement solutions. Symbian should be dead already, and the only Nokia phone you should be able to buy should have WP7 (or whatever else they could have gone with).

Nokia is the (old) GM of the phone business. They had a phone for everyone. That's not, in and of itself, a bad strategy. But the 'computer' part of the phone (which apple and google are doing well with) sucked, they had great 'phone' parts (call quality, voice dialing etc.). Whether or not WP7, and MS cash can save them remains to be seen. But announcing your current product lineup is dead out the door, and *not* having a replacement ready to launch is begging for trouble.

July 2011 is the 3 year anniversary of the iPhone 3g, which, IMO was the first good computer with a phone attached. Before that, Nokia had better phones, browsers etc. as did RIM. Now my iPhone 3g is, in many ways, a piece of junk (lack of replacable battery for example, general lack of build quality etc.). But on July 11, 2011 (3rd anniversary of the 3g), Nokia won't have an offering on par with the iPhone 3g. That says a lot about what they've been doing, or not doing, for the last 4 years. Don't get me wrong, the N8 isn't a terrible product, but it has no where near the software umph that the iphone does. Better camera, replacable battery, good, terrible software, bad.

By now Nokia should have either an ARM or x86 WP7 on the market, even a single core roughly on par with a nexus S/iphone 4 sort of level. Windows phones might be behind the curve, but with a big backer they might kick their ass in gear. Nothing of the sort has happened, and they're getting nothing done.

They should've went with their Linux phones

[guruevi]

The Nokia N7xx-8xx were really, really nice for a smartphone and plenty hackable and had a large (open source) software repository by the time Apple came up to speed with the App Store. The main reasons those platforms bled to death was because they didn't want to invest even a fraction of time and money in it. The community around it was great however but Nokia euthanized it at the point they needed it the most. It could've beat Android before it even became successful, it has all the same great features of Android but none of the sluggishness.

Re:They should've went with their Linux phones

[CRCulver]

The Nokia N7xx-8xx were really, really nice for a smartphone

They weren't smartphones, they were internet tablets.

Re:They should've went with their Linux phones

[Anonymous Coward]

The Nokia N7xx-8xx were really, really nice for a smartphone

They weren't smartphones, they were internet tablets.

And they were STILL better as smartphones than current smartphones

Re:They should've went with their Linux phones

[CRCulver]

It's hard to be a smartphone without a cellular stack.

Re:They should've went with their Linux phones

[js_sebastian]

The Nokia N7xx-8xx were really, really nice for a smartphone

They weren't smartphones, they were internet tablets.

But the N900 is. I own one, and am holding onto it tight for now. Is it perfect? No, mostly because a lot of its applications are a bit too slow. But it's a good start, I'm thinking if they had invested real money into improving and polishing this, and done that early enough, maemo could have been a competitive platform. Keeping Qt as the glue between their two platforms (symbian and maemo) during a potentially long transition phase was also a reasonable strategy. The dumb- or dumbish- phone market is less profitable, but it's not gone, and Nokia always had a good position in it. The thing I find most baffling with the WP7 switch is that I do not see what they plan to sell to replace their low-end phones...

Re:They should've went with their Linux phones

[CRCulver]

The thing I find most baffling with the WP7 switch is that I do not see what they plan to sell to replace their low-end phones...

Nokia figures have voiced their doubt that the company had any future in the low-end market anyway because of rising competition from Chinese makers who can undercut them.

Re:They should've went with their Linux phones

[guruevi]

I used it as a smartphone though using SIP. These days you really don't need a cellular phone system, you just need the data portion, WiMax or one of those 4G-to-WiFi devices.

The real problem is phone usage.

[BravoZuluM]

I work for a large cellular firm. Not more than a handful of employees use our software products but instead use the Apple iPhone. It shows in the software quality side of our product. If we actually used our own product, those errors would disappear because they are obvious and the developer would fix his own phone.

I suspect the same thing happens at Nokia. I am currently running a Nokia N8. Hands down, the best cell hardware available. I can make calls, from my office, will full bars indicated. My iPhone 4 could not make the connection and appeared out of service while I work in the middle of a large city. I can drive through the local mountains with no dropped calls on the N8. The iPhone, constant drops. Why do people put up with the hardware, because they think the software is so good. Can't make a phone call, no biggie because I have this neat bird rage game from the easy to use app store. My N8, takes amazing photos and videos, but moving the media is as straight forward as it should be.

So I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that Nokia employees are not using Nokia products. If they were, the simplest app errors I find on my N8 would not exist. The owner of that software component would soon feel the problem and fix it. My N8 has basic problems with Bluetooth functionality. Screens popup when no user action triggered it. My ear can hangup a phone call because when I answer it and put my head to the phone, my ear touches a button and the software happily complies. Did the developer check the orientation sensor and disable the buttons? The dialer is inconvenient. How many automated systems are out there Nokia? And whenever I encounter one, it is a pain in the butt to punch in the dialer. How about when the orientation is more horizontal, pushing the dialer button puts it into speaker mode. But, only if you aren't on a connected blue tooth. I could go on an on.

Maybe that isn't enough to convince? I worked for Nokia a while ago. Many engineers had Nokia branded phones. They would write custom software and re-flashed their phones for even more innovative functionality. Then the Motorola Razor came out. Within a month, every engineer, in the meetings I attended, had a Razor. The Razor was perhaps the beginning of the end of good Nokia software. They just can't seem to catch up and even my N8, which as an updated UI drops back to an old school UI when I push the button.

When Nokia bought Trolltech, I was a little apprehensive and felt they would probably kill the framework. When they started working hard on the phone platform, I really started to get into it. My desktop QT code was reusable on my devices. But Nokia didn't disappoint. After a record QT Dev Days event, which seems to indicate a swelling interest by developers, Elop mothballs QT. Figures, Elop isn't a visionary. He is a snakeoil salesman trying to get his next bonus at the expense of a long range vision and plan. Everyone thinks they can be a Steve Jobs, but when you tie your products to your month to month, and quarter to quarter results, you get rushed, poor products.

At Microsoft, many of the Engineers do use the Windows 7 phone. It's not bad and is usable....for 2004. but Microsoft will slowly evolve the platform and will probably carve out a large piece of the market. If they put native code back in, I will develop for it. but none of this is going to help Nokia. What's going to be their value add? Their employees will still probably not use the phone so their rendition will just be a poor copy of a Windows 7 device while they try to sell their GSM chips.

If I were Elop, I would have tied bonuses to owning the company products. You own a device not branded by Nokia? You forgo bonuses and promotions. Apple produces compelling technology because your employees have a passion in it. They live and breathe the brand and work to produce the best product available. My guess is that Elop has a Blackberry or a Windows 7 phone. It starts at the top. He should ow

Re:The real problem is phone usage.

[Rennt]

My guess is that Elop has a Blackberry or a Windows 7 phone. It starts at the top. He should own and use the N8.

Hehehe - I'm sorry, but Elop... use a phone?! I'm reminded of Bill Gates' infamous Windows Usability Systematic degradation flame email. Bill might have actually made some good points if he didn't sound so much like your average pensioner calling into an ISP helpdesk.

Either Bill's more of a Mac guy then he's been letting on, or when you get that powerful you just don't do these things for yourself. Either way "dogfooding" does not apply to the CEO.

Re:The real problem is phone usage.

[js_sebastian]

My guess is that Elop has a Blackberry or a Windows 7 phone. It starts at the top. He should own and use the N8.

I guess the E7 or something would be more appropriate: that's their top end business phone. The N8 is consumer.

Re:The real problem is phone usage.

[Anonymous Coward]

In Nokia the problem was other, to much political decisions, there are a lot of stories about Nokia engineers proposing software improvements with working examples being rejected for political reason and not for technical ones.

Re:The real problem is phone usage.

[janimal]

This MUST be true. My wife has an N97. I do not believe for one moment that one single manager or exec at Nokia uses that piece of garbage. They probably still use their N95.
Truth is that with N97, Nokia probably lost its entire early adopter base. My wife's next phone will with 100% certainly not be a Nokia, and she was a Nokia-only customer.
I have an N900. Even though I don't hack on it, I really like it as a phone, but I feel abandoned after shelling out $500 for it on preorder.

F*ck these guys. They certainly know how to screw their highest margin customers.

Apple, here we come. Not out of choice, but out of desperation.

Re:The real problem is phone usage.

[Anonymous Coward]

+1

yup

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what happens when you make a crappy product that costs less/more than a extremely visible and available competitor.
(Namely, iPhone, Samsung, HTC, Sony)

Good lord, it isn't about Symbian at all.

[Colin Smith]

Declare the maximum number of devices = 6 and maximum number of platforms = 2. 1 smartphone, 1 basic.

That solves 99% of the problems which Nokia have created for themselves.

Whether their smartphone platform was Symbian or Meego wouldn't have mattered, the R&D organisation would have been able to concentrate on actually making it good.

Their problem was not Symbian. Their problem was and still is 150 (yes really) different phone models. Elop hasn't actually fixed the problem.

Now like all Windows OEMs, they're a box shifter, so they need to get into a box shifter mindset. R&D will have to go entirely, there is no place for it in a low margin box shifting business.

Re:Good lord, it isn't about Symbian at all.

[DMoylan]

problem was not symbian? would agree to that for the most part.

problem was 150 phones? disagree to that. they sell huge numbers of phones all over the world. different markets and different users have different requirements and i always could find something that fitted exactly what i wanted in their hardware range. better than the apple one size fits all policy.

i think their problem was the way they kept changing symbian so that addon software from one year would not work on next years phone. the platform while it didn't change much in look and feel changed enough so that every year i found i had to find new software to do what i was doing on last years phone. this pissed off developers who would often release only once or twice before abandoning the platform. in the time i had symbian devices i went through at least 4 different etext readers as the old software wouldn't work on the newer devices.

they never cared about creating a developer friendly platform. pity as it remains the only device i could write and run python software on. ase for android is getting better but is still not as good, yet.

just my 2c.

Re:Good lord, it isn't about Symbian at all.

[Anonymous Coward]

The amount of models available has nothing to do with their decline. They have always had the most models by far and have sold roughly 10x the phones as anyone else world wide. If amount of models alone made a difference, they would have never been a factor and would have never outsold anyone. Their phones are high quality and reliable but they are perceived as dated. The phones they make now regardless of how many models are not popular or in demand. An iPhone or an Android device is. If they would have jumped into the Android market when other players did, they would have quite a few must have devices.

Re:Announcing your platform is dead, not good for

[Anonymous Coward]

But on July 11, 2011 (3rd anniversary of the 3g), Nokia won't have an offering on par with the iPhone 3g. That says a lot about what they've been doing, or not doing, for the last 4 years. Don't get me wrong, the N8 isn't a terrible product, but it has no where near the software umph that the iphone does. Better camera, replacable battery, good, terrible software, bad.

By now Nokia should have either an ARM or x86 WP7 on the market, even a single core roughly on par with a nexus S/iphone 4 sort of level. Windows phones might be behind the curve, but with a big backer they might kick their ass in gear. Nothing of the sort has happened, and they're getting nothing done.

iPhone 3G -> N810 WIMAX?
single core Nexus S/iPhone 4 -> N900?
Okay, the N810 isn't GSM and the N900 comes up just short (spec wise) of the iPhone 4. But Nokia tried to really go in to the "what computers have become" angle with Maemo, and due to Nokia's failtastic marketing, it didn't fly.

Disclosure: I'm a N900 user.

Re:mod parent up

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish I wasn't a forever anonymous coward, so I could give you a mod point. I hope someone else does.

It may be a little fascist to *require* that they eat their own dog food, but I'll be damned if it wouldn't solve the problem.

Low Point

[Udo Schmitz]

could mark the low point for Nokia

Nope, not yet.

Market Saturation

[Anonymous Coward]

Given current trends, I feel you will find the market is pretty much saturated and all cellphone companies are going to suffer. You can only sell so many phones.

Not a surprise

[ModelX]

I have seen it coming. Nokia have been living in their comfortable telco-friendly niche for too long.

1. They have a ton of low-end models, each one seems to have different menus and a lot of missing features, as if telcos got to choose what features to remove so that they can try to sell a new phone contract every year.

2. Their middle-range models also lack in features and the quality does not always reflect the price. I paid 240 EUR and the side keys fell apart in one year.

3. Their high-end phones were basically show off pieces without a proper or at least not developed enough eco-system.

4. Their PC software has become a bit too bloated and it has some basic bugs (some MP3s not showing on the phone list, disk crawler locking up files...).

The combination of these drive many low-end users to experiment with other companies phones and most high-end users to try iPhone or Android.

you don't get it, do you?

[fredan]

this is done to get the price of Nokia down so much that Microsoft can buy Nokia a lot cheaper. Simple business as usual.

Death Knell

[Civil_Disobedient]

Sorry, Nokia, but that's what you get. Time to short NOK like it's going out of business.