Unlocked iPhones in US For $649

Endoflow2010 writes "Apple on Tuesday started selling an unlocked version of its iPhone 4, starting at $649. A 16GB unlocked iPhone 4 will set you back $649, while a 32GB version is selling for $749. Both are available in black or white; the black will ship within one to three business days, while the white is available in three to five days, according to the Apple Web site. The benefit of an unlocked phone is that you are not locked into a two-year contract with a particular provider. But it also means that you don't get the subsidized pricing provided by someone like AT&T or Verizon. The same phones with a contract cost $199 and $299."

Comments

Data plan cost the same

[recoiledsnake]

The data plan will cost the same as buying it on a contract. Only TMobile gives a $10 discount. The govt should make this practice illegal like it's done in the EU.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[WrongSizeGlass]

The data plan will cost the same as buying it on a contract. Only TMobile gives a $10 discount. The govt should make this practice illegal like it's done in the EU.

Exactly, except that I don't think an iPhone will work on T-Mobile's network (or Sprint's).

Re:Data plan cost the same

[DdJ]

It will work on T-Mobile's network since both are GSM phones. But since T-Mobile uses a different technology for 3G speeds, it will only work at Edge (2G) networking speeds. But for many people that will be fine.

It will not work on Sprint's network because only GSM phones are being sold unlocked, and Sprint uses a CDMA network, like Verizon. (But there is every chance that next year a dual-mode phone will exist instead of two different single-mode phones, and an unlocked version of that could well work on Sprint.)

Re:Data plan cost the same

[timeOday]

I wonder why Apple is offering this if no carrier has an appropriate pricing plan to support it? This is like paying cash for a car and STILL making a payment on it every month. Why?

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Andy Dodd]

Small correction: Same technology, different frequency band.

Since it doesn't support T-Mo's 3G bands, there's not much point to it unless you'll be doing a lot of international travel. If it's only going to be fully functional on AT&T, you may as well go for the contract, since you won't be saving any money on service.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Microlith]

To make a point, I suppose? I bought my N900 outright even though AT&T doesn't give discounts, mostly because there was no chance in hell that any US carrier would make it available.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[timeOday]

So in your case there was a perfectly good reason. Likewise, could I use my unlocked iPhone with, say, tracfone?

Re:Data plan cost the same

[poetmatt]

Forget that, the government should make it illegal to charge a premium to have an unlocked phone. In the US, the average smartphone is $500 unlocked. Apple wants it even higher? Fuck that. The cost of these phones is nowhere near reality, considering that subsidized on contract is essentially not even half.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, TMobile is discontinuing that practice too. Last year, it was removed from their website but was still available if you went to the store and asked for it. (I've heard that recently it has not been available in-store either, but I have not confirmed that.)

Re:Data plan cost the same

[node 3]

I wonder why Apple is offering this if no carrier has an appropriate pricing plan to support it? This is like paying cash for a car and STILL making a payment on it every month. Why?

The short answer is: because people want it.

(it's funny, people bitch about phones being carrier-locked, then act confused when a phone is offered without a carrier-lock)

The longer answer is:

- So you don't have to enter a 2 year contract.
- For use overseas, being able to buy a local SIM instead of paying AT&T's high international roaming rates
- It makes the iPhone more readily available in countries and on carriers which it's not currently sold on

Which is to say, because people want it.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. I think this is a preliminary exercise to get people and carriers ready for the fall when the next iPhone comes out. This one will probably still be 3G (not LTE), but single chip (Qualcomm Gobi) world phone, with HSPA+ on the GSM side. Apple will probably also sell it outright and thru carrier contracts, but I am assuming that the carriers will be paying the full price to Apple for the phone. No more of the sharing the cost crap.

The use of the Gobi chip could be a watershed event in mobile phones. The fact that I could buy a phone I want and then shop the voice and data plan separately has the potential to be HUGE. The only issue I see is if the carriers will not provide voice and data to an unlocked phone. In America, the carriers tend to be huge douche bags that have congress by the junk.

Disclaimer, Yes, I would pay $650+ for the phone I described, as long as I could get a voice and data plan and tethering was a function of the phone and not the carrier.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Anonymous Coward]

Forget that, the government should make it illegal to charge a premium to have an unlocked phone. In the US, the average smartphone is $500 unlocked. Apple wants it even higher? Fuck that. The cost of these phones is nowhere near reality, considering that subsidized on contract is essentially not even half.

They aren't really charging a premium the way you make out.
Phones when sold on contract are usually (if not always) sold below cost price, pre-paid phones are usually sold at a discount too, but not as much of one as the carrier can't be sure how much they'll gain from the customer's business, sometimes it's below cost-price, sometimes to break even.

When buying an unlocked phone you're paying what the phone would actually cost if the market had a similar pricing policy to the rest of the electronics market.
Of course, Apple are still charging the Apple tax, so it's still a rip-off compared to most smart-phones.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Registered Coward v2]

I wonder why Apple is offering this if no carrier has an appropriate pricing plan to support it? This is like paying cash for a car and STILL making a payment on it every month. Why?

For travelers who want to use their iPhone internationally this makes it a lot easier than before (assuming you can get micro-SIMS easily). Instead of having to carry two phones when you travel one will do.

To those who say: Jailbreak/unlock!1 yes - but with this you are not at the mercy of the cat and mouse game between Apple an the jailbreakers.

Know, if there was a way to copy the needed software to create an "officially" unlocked iPhone, using this phones software, from carrier locked ones life would really be good. Better yet, let this be a prelude for ATT to being able to unlock subsidized iPhones.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[LoganDzwon]

agreed.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[History's Coming To]

It's a dev's model I'm guessing. Want to dig around the internals, use it on a local network or the like? It's a very useful lightweight computer in its own right, paying $600+ to be free of a contract could be worth it in the long run if you don't need it for the phone component. Yes, of course you could just buy an iPod touch for that, but I'm betting there's at least a few people who have a practical/financial use for this, even at that initial cost.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[cpu6502]

Yeah but do you really save money?
$199 + 24 months * $40/month == $1160
vs.
$649 + 24 months * $25/month == $1249

No not really. Oh well. This is why I still use a VirginMobile phone. The phone was free and the service is cheap ($0 a month plus fees -or- $25 unlimited). Of course it's no iPhone but I'm okay with that.

BTW escaping a two year contract is ridiculously easy. The companies change the terms so frequently (such as adding a datacap when you signed for an unlimited dataplan) that you can terminate the contract without repercussion.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[LoganDzwon]

Apple tried that with the first gen iPhone. People did not like it.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[ArsonSmith]

Screw that, the government should just provide everyone with smartphones. Why should I have to pay greedy profit driven corporations in order to have the basic right of communications. They should nationalize the wireless carriers and offer subsidized phones for all at reasonable prices. Or even free to the disadvantaged. Screw the profits of the fat cat money leaches.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[LoganDzwon]

People want to pay for it.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[timeOday]

The example of an international user does seem to make sense.

If nothing else, maybe Apple's entry into prepaid phones for such a popular model will create market forces for the carriers to offer more attractive "bring your own phone" plans. I really hate this forced "rent-to-own" model. I wouldn't buy a TV or couch that way, and I don't want to buy a phone that way.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[grimJester]

Depends on what they cost, of course. Are they a lot more expensive in the US than in Finland? Here's what I found on a local operator's page:

Mobiililaajakaista Mini 0,5 Mbit/s 4,90 eur/month
Mobiililaajakaista Perus 1 Mbit/s eur/month
Mobiililaajakaista Nopsa Up to 15 Mbit/s 13,90 eur/month

No monthly limits, if that matters.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[mspohr]

You can use this phone with an ATT 'pay as you go' plan. You can get calls for 10 cents a minute and buy data ($15 for 100 MB $25 for 500 MB). No contract required.

http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/cell-phone-plans/pyg-cell-phone-plans.jsp

I don't use the phone part much so my calls are only a few dollars a month. I only use data for email and web browsing so use less than 100 MB a month.

My cost is usually about $20 a month.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Altus]

What practice is that exactly? I'm not quite clear what you want changed (though I agree, unlocked phones don't make much sense in the US give the plan structures)

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Abreu]

In some countries (like here in Mexico), if you want an iPhone 4* this means paying $600.00usd up front and then signing a $50usd monthly plan for 12 months.

Fail to see the advantage here.

*Similar, if slightly cheaper upfront charges apply if you want a DroidX or a Samsung GalaxyS

Re:Data plan cost the same

[abhi_beckert]

10 cents a minute is pretty good. but those data rates are insanely expensive. If you used an iPhone the way a typical geek does, the data plan will cost a fortune.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[aardwolf64]

Look at it this way... Why are you setting the time period at 2 years when the iPhone comes out annually?

$199 + 12 months * $40/month + $375 early termination fee == $1054
vs.
$649 + 12 months * $25/month == $949

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Microlith]

Is Tracfone GSM based? If so, yes.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[tripleevenfall]

No problem for the carrier on tethering - they'll get paid one way or another. If you can tether from the phone, they'll just ratchet data plan prices up and data caps down.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[tlhIngan]

Know, if there was a way to copy the needed software to create an "officially" unlocked iPhone, using this phones software, from carrier locked ones life would really be good. Better yet, let this be a prelude for ATT to being able to unlock subsidized iPhones.

It's interesting actually.

Every iPhone4 is manufactured the same (I'm talking GSM ones, not counting the Verizon/CDMA ones). They're loaded with software and shipped out to Apple. Every serial number issued is recorded.

What happens when you buy an iPhone4 is this. For carrier sold phones, Apple records the serial numbers of every phone they ship out, and in their database it's marked as "Carrier locked". For phones sold at the Apple store, if you pay for a contract-free one, it's marked in the database as "unlocked", else if you buy it carrier locked/subsidized, it's marked as "carrier locked" as well. The baseband at this time only has the iMEI and nothing else.

Now, the next step is important, and it doesn't matter if it's done by the carrier in store or by you. The phone is plugged into the PC and it talks with iTunes. The phone queries the baseband and asks it what the carrier ID of the SIM that's inside is. It passes this information to iTunes along with its serial number, which contacts Apple and Apple looks into the database to see what phone it is.

If it's an unlocked phone, Apple ignores the carrier ID, and passes back a baseband configuration blob that basically keeps it unlocked. If it's a locked phone, it takes that carrier ID and produces a baseband configuration that locks the baseband to that carrier ID.

Note that the only time the phone knows it's locked is during the initial "Connect to iTunes" phase, which is why you must have a SIM inside for it (iTunes complains if there's no SIM). Subsequent times (during a restore, say), having a SIM inside it doesn't matter.

This also means that the carrier locking only happens during this period as well. You can buy a phone from AT&T, stick in say a Rogers SIM card, connect it to iTunes, and you'll have a phone locked to Rogers instead of AT&T.

These blobs are probably signed by Apple to ensure that replay attacks aren't possible, and are keyed to IMEI.

This may mean that right now, it's not possible to re-configure the baseband with a new blob. I expect iOS 5 to allow this capability though with a new baseband firmware. The use of iCloud would mean a user would purchase the unlock option, then restore their phone - iCloud backs up the data, the phone erases user data and restores itself to default, then the user set up begins while it fetches a new configuration blob. iCloud then restores the phone.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[node 3]

24 * $70, not * $40

BTW escaping a two year contract is ridiculously easy. The companies change the terms so frequently (such as adding a datacap when you signed for an unlimited dataplan) that you can terminate the contract without repercussion.

That's why they grandfather you in.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[PopeRatzo]

The fact that I could buy a phone I want and then shop the voice and data plan separately has the potential to be HUGE.

You've been able to do that already for years. Just not with phones from Apple.

"Huge" is quite a subjective term in this case.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Mousit]

Another piece of the answer is: pre-pay and pay-as-you-go plans.

AT&T is well-known to use a database of IMEI numbers to detect iPhones and other smartphones, so that it can force them onto specific plans and to require the addition of expensive data packages. This also includes entirely rejecting detected smartphones straight off of pre-pay plans and requiring them to go post-pay only, though they just this past April finally added a pre-pay smartphone plan (however, only a single AT&T-branded smartphone is currently "authorized" to use it!) However, their database almost exclusively consists of AT&T-branded or otherwise carrier-locked-to-AT&T phones.

Thus, it's also rather well-known that non-AT&T-branded phones, and iPhones from other regions (purchasing unlocked iPhones from Canada where they've been available direct from Apple for a long time is not uncommon in the States), are rarely if ever detected. I fully suspect that these unlocked U.S. iPhones that Apple is now selling directly are similarly not on AT&T's IMEI list. This is good for people who don't need an expensive airtime plan or data package (hey they have wifi for data; not everyone needs a constant cellular connection).

I've got quite a few friends with non-AT&T iPhones on AT&T's pre-pay, without issues. Hopefully now, when they desire to upgrade their hardware, they won't have to go through the trouble of importing or otherwise doing any magic handwaving in order to get a phone they want while avoiding the smartphone detection.

I'll politely leave off the rant about what greedy, rip-off bullshit it is that AT&T has such detection systems, or that anyone should EVER have to go to such trouble to avoid a thing like that.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Dahamma]

It will work on T-Mobile's network since both are GSM phones. But since T-Mobile uses a different technology for 3G speeds, it will only work at Edge (2G) networking speeds. But for many people that will be fine.

2G and no visual voicemail. Plus, T-Mobile just got bought by AT&T, so it's all going to be the same network soon, anyway. If you are in the US, buying an unlocked iPhone 4 from Apple is a complete waste of money. The only reason I could see getting one is if you are already on a contract with T-Mobile and really want an iPhone, but in that case you're probably better off paying an early termination fee and signing up with AT&T for a discounted phone.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[jmottram08]

Why is the second case cheaper per month? no data plan? THEN WHY UPGRADE YOUR VOICE ONLY iPHONE EACH YEAR?

Re:Data plan cost the same

[mspohr]

The data rates are not a good deal if you are constantly streaming Pandora or videos. However, most people don't do these things. (I am a certified geek and I don't do these these things.) I use primarily email, web browsing, Google Navigation and a few other apps which have moderate data requirements. I find I use less than 100 MB month. Also, when you have a WiFi connection there is no data charge.

ATT lets you look at your historical data usage on their web site. Check out yours... you may be surprised.

T-Mobile has an even better deal (for me, at least). You can get 10 cents a minute calls and a daily data plan... $1.49 for 24 hours unlimited data. I find this works best for me since most of the time I am connected by WiFi. When I am traveling a few days a month and need the data connection, I buy the day data pass. My total cost on T-Mobile is about $10 a month. No contracts.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, same nonsense in Canada. I checked into it a year ago. You should have seen the puzzled looks on the sales people when I said "I know the cost of the phone is built into the data plan price over the term of the contract; so, if I pay for the phone up front, will I get a lower service plan price?" I asked everywhere. The answer was always "no", even though several of the sales people acknowledged that it didn't make sense. I even phrased it as "So, I pay you up front $600+, or bring my own phone to activate with you, and you still bill me the same? There's *no* incentive for me to plonk the money on the table now, even though I've been an always-on-time paying customer with you for years and could switch to another carrier at any time?" And I tried the reverse with "thinking of switching service" at the other companies. I also asked "After the 2-year contract is finished, and the phone is completely paid off, will my service rate go down?" They almost laughed at that suggestion. The phone is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it's already paid for or amortized through the phone company. They charge the same price for service.

This is all so obviously bogus I gave up on buying a new phone and stuck with my old phone which is paid for and on a cheaper plan that saves me $10/month. Not much of a protest, I admit, but I refuse to give in to such obvious price fixing.

So, in the US TMobile does give a discount? Good for them. At least there's one relatively honest provider there.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[DdJ]

The main factor is the frequency band, yes, but T-Mobile also typically uses HSPA+ instead of just HSPA. It is not my understanding that the iPhone can currently use HSPA+, regardless of frequency.

And from my perspective it's going to be fully functional. I'd personally take cheap 1xRTT over expensive 4G any day, and EDGE is better than 1xRTT. I'll still be able to check my email, use IMs, browse the web, that'll all be fine. I won't be able to stream, but I don't stream (except on wifi), so I won't notice that.

Heck, even on AT&T's network I sometimes disable 3G speed in order to conserve battery life. Anyone who wants to see if they could tolerate this can test it by going into the "Settings" app and turning off 3G.

Honestly, know the only feature I'd lack that I believe I'd miss? Visual voicemail.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[bn-7bc]

Hmm , I'm going to the US in 2012 does ATT requiere any for of us id (ssn cc etc) to get one of ether prepaid sims, and do they provide micro-sims over the counter?

Re:Data plan cost the same

[AK Marc]

But you can't shop the plans separately in the US. All major carriers except one you can only pick between plans that include phone subsidies, regardless of whether you are wanting the phone subsidy. That's not separately. That's allowing you to pay a penalty for buying a phone from someone else when selecting a plan that still includes a phone.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Sebastopol]

One anecdotal datapoint for me:

I've had my iPhone 3GS for two years, and I'm reasonably nerdy but I only use data-heavy modes when connected to WiFi.

My data rates over cellular service: sent 371MB received 2.3GB for ~24 months.

That puts me in the $15~$25 range.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Kjella]

I'm not in the US but work gave me an iPhone, they're on this big corporate plan so that's a reason to sell unlocked phones. Not that it's really a big deal here in Norway because they have mandated that you must be able to terminate your contract for a reasonable termination fee anyway.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[schnikies79]

Tracfone is both CDMA and GSM based, according to what model you get. That said, I think that Tracfone SIM card are tied to a particular IMEI, so they can't be moved out of the phone they are bought with.

Not 100% positive.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[batkiwi]

This is what people originally assumed, but is incorrect. Here in Australia we have 4 different networks offering iphones for sale locked.

If I go to the mall and buy a Telstra iPhone, still in box and still shrinkwrapped, completely unactivated, it will NOT activate with anything apart from a Telstra SIM. If you put in an Optus SIM it will tell you immediately, before activation, that it has the wrong SIM in it and refuse to activate through itunes.

I know this from having done it personally. You have to buy a prepaid SIM from the carrier you bought it from, activate it, call said carrier and ask for an unlock (free to $99 depending on carrier), wait ~24 hours, sync to itunes again (and get the "congratulations on unlock!" message), and then use a different SIM.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[batkiwi]

$650-750 matches what they sell it for in every other country, dollar/tax/etc adjusted.

Apple is not charging a premium to have an unlocked phone. ATT is giving you $500 credit for choosing a 24 month contract. That, again, is about the same as other countries, it's just that ATT isn't transparent.

Here, with Telstra, you get a phone repayment credit with each plan. A $50 plan gives you $20 a month phone repayment credit. So on a 24 month plan, you can choose a phone up to $480, or pay the different (monthly or up front) on a phone >$480.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Kalriath]

You're being charged the same amount the rest of us across the planet are for unlocked iPhones - the average price means precisely jack shit. Get over it.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Algan]

If it's only going to be fully functional on AT&T, you may as well go for the contract, since you won't be saving any money on service.

The point of having an unlocked iphone even on AT&T is to be able to use a local SIM card when you travel. Another reason would be to use an AT&T prepaid account, which would be a lot less expensive than their regular voice plans.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[ceoyoyo]

A locked iPhone will only activate with the right SIM, and iPhones can be unlocked, by Apple at the carrier's request, remotely. There was even someone selling that service, who presumably had some kind of access into Apple's database.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Anonymous Coward]

The govt should make this practice illegal like it's done in the EU

What are you talking about? This is simply not true. Maybe some EU member countries did this, but the EU did not.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[numbski]

Been using my iPhone(s) on T-Mobile since day 1. I have Wifi at home, and I have an "iSpot" from clearwire that gives me wimax when I'm not at home. Still far cheaper than AT&T. :)

Re:Data plan cost the same

[TheLandyman]

nope..

Re:Data plan cost the same

[mattack2]

This isn't (as?) relevant for smart phones, but there have been prepaid phones for a long time. Especially for low/infrequent phone users, that can be MUCH cheaper than *any* subsidized phone.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[mattack2]

Is there a minimum fee for this or the AT&T pay as you go plan?

e.g. things like Virgin Mobile effectively have a $5/month minimum since you have to add money every 90 days to keep it working ($20, but it goes down to $15 if you have it auto-pay). There are others that are lower, but VM is one of the most well known.

Yes, I would pay hundreds of dollars for a phone then use it on the cheapest plan I could! (Currently have a work-supplied phone, so mostly I'm curious.)

Re:Data plan cost the same

[wgoodman]

Anytime they change it, you have 30 days to reject their changes and be let out without penalty.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[spinkham]

Do you know this to be true? Last time I looked into this, they said iPhones were ineligible for gophone service.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Macrat]

The data plan will cost the same as buying it on a contract. Only TMobile gives a $10 discount. The govt should make this practice illegal like it's done in the EU.

T-Mobile's plans are much cheaper.

My current T-Mobile plan I'm have for my factory unlocked iPhone 3GS is $39.99 voice + $19.99 unlimited text & data.

Go check what that costs you on ATT

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Macrat]

Since it doesn't support T-Mo's 3G bands, there's not much point to it unless you'll be doing a lot of international travel. If it's only going to be fully functional on AT&T, you may as well go for the contract, since you won't be saving any money on service.

T-Mobile's plans are much cheaper than AT&T

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to be too picky and all, but CDMA is a modulation technique - it is also used by newer GSM/UTMS networks. (Including AT&T's). I guess all networks in the US use CDMA by now. What you are talking about is CDMA2000vs. W-CDMA.

The technology that Verizon and Sprint are using is a dead-end now, because it's main advantage (CDMA) has been integrated into the (and replaced TDMA) in the GSM family years ago, and even Qualicom has jumped ship.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I'll give you an example. I have an iPhone 4, and I don't pay a data plan for it. Why? Because, I have a portable WiFi hotspot. I just leave the mobile data on my phone set to "off", and the WiFi connected. Saves me... around $30 a month? (And being locked doesn't even matter he he).

Re:Data plan cost the same

[maxume]

It's only troublesome to avoid it if you studiously ignore the easy way.

(And I say this more in the sense that I wish more people actually thought about the terms of their cell phone contract and refused the obnoxious and less in the sense that I think it is a revelation that a person could choose to go without AT&T phone service)

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Dahan]

Is there a minimum fee for this or the AT&T pay as you go plan?

On the "Adding funds to your account" tab of AT&T's prepaid info page, there's a table that lists the expiration period for various refill amounts. The effective minimum is $100/year (a bit over $8/month).

FWIW, I don't have an iPhone, but I do have a smartphone (Nokia E71), and I average about $20 a month on AT&T's prepaid--some web browsing, email, and Google maps. I don't watch Youtube or download podcasts over 3G data though; I save that for where I have WiFi.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[PhotoJim]

This. I'm Canadian so I have more options, but here in Saskatchewan I can use my unlocked iPhone with any of the three carriers here (Rogers, Telus, SaskTel) and when I travel to the US, I use my prepaid AT&T service (or I could use T-Mobile). And I use Orange in the UK. It's a godsend being able to use this phone everywhere I go for very little cost.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Mousit]

True enough: the easy way would simply be to not have a cell phone. The practical way? Not so much. I actually make use of it for my day-to-day needs. Yes, yes, twenty years ago we all made do without cell phones and didn't think a thing of it and life went on. We aren't living twenty years ago though. A century ago we made due without telephones at all; is that the easy way too?

Here in my area, I have a choice between AT&T and Verizon. That's.. it. No Sprint. No T-Mobile (well, okay, it sort of works here). No smaller providers like MetroPCS (though they're looking to come here soonish, at least). Verizon is just as well known for requiring onerous plans and expensive data packages, and most certainly, their pre-pay is absurdly unreasonably priced (and that's even compared to AT&T!).

I'm on pre-pay, and I have no contract. It's not so much obnoxious contract terms as obnoxious business practices. I don't like doing business with the devil but my choices are limited.

So, yeah, it's quite a revelation that one certainly could choose to go without AT&T service, but going without cell service isn't quite the "easy way" it once was. Plus the idea that one might have a plethora of other options to choose from, everywhere in the land, is studiously ignoring the reality of the U.S. cellular "market".

Re:Data plan cost the same

[PopeRatzo]

But you can't shop the plans separately in the US

That's a function of the carriers, not the phone manufacturers.

Apple selling an "unlocked" phone doesn't do anything about what the carriers are doing.

I don't see buying your phone without a subsidy as being that huge of a change unless the carriers decide to do things differently.

And let's not think for a second that "unlocked" means that you won't be behind the Apple walled garden. "unlocked" is not the same as jailbroken.

Now if Apple started selling phones that were not locked in jail, that would be huge.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[AK Marc]

That's a function of the carriers, not the phone manufacturers.

I never said otherwise.

Apple selling an "unlocked" phone doesn't do anything about what the carriers are doing.

I never said otherwise.

I don't see buying your phone without a subsidy as being that huge of a change unless the carriers decide to do things differently.

I never said otherwise.

And let's not think for a second that "unlocked" means that you won't be behind the Apple walled garden. "unlocked" is not the same as jailbroken.

I never said otherwise.

Now if Apple started selling phones that were not locked in jail, that would be huge.

I never said otherwise.

I'm not sure what you are arguing about. Shopping phones and plans separately would be huge (according to the AC you responded to). You stated that you can shop phones and plans separately. I pointed out that you couldn't. I didn't say it was the fault of Apple or that their unlocked phone makes it easier or harder to do so or anything else like that. I compared the US market to the rest of the world (implicitly, as my post was more terse than this one) and stated the truth that the US market does not allow for shopping of phones and plans separately. With a monthly plan with any carrier other than T-Mobile, you will be paying for a phone regardless of whether you get one with the service. That explicitly prevents shopping for plans independently of the phones because if you bought it anyway, you may as well select one and take it home (I know I do, and have "bought" more than one phone I never used and instead donated to the woman's shelter, and it cost me nothing).

You can argue about who's fault that is, what (if anything) should be done about it, or whether the phone in question is actually "unlocked" is irrelevant to the fact that you do not get to independently shop for phones and plans in the US. Perhaps there is the possibility of a discussion of whether a move to such pricing would be "huge" but it would be something that would change billing on phones and plans by billions of dollars a year (I call billions huge, but those in the federal government call that peanuts).

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Cimexus]

Actually, you're getting it cheaper than quite a few places.

iPhone 4 32 GB, no-carrier, unlocked from Apple Store is $999 AUD here. That's $1068 USD at today's exchange rate. So you guys are making a $200-300 saving.

Australia is one of the more expensive markets for Apple Store prices so perhaps that's not a fair comparison. But you are getting it cheaper than even places like Singapore which are traditionally quite cheap. I think the reason for this is that the US dollar is SO low right now that any US prices compared against prices elsewhere look ridiculously cheap. If you used a more average value for the USD over the last decade, your prices are on par. All up - it's a fair price.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Cimexus]

Sorry! I replied to the wrong parent > My post is obviously not in reply to yours...

Re:Data plan cost the same

[wvmarle]

I'm having a 15-year flashback reading this story. At the time no smart phones of course. But in The Netherlands the situation was roughly like it's in the US still. You buy a phone, heavily subsidised, with contract from carrier, and find the phone simlocked to that carrier. The subsidy actually went through the reseller: the shop sold a contract, and would get a kickback from the phone company, which in turn was used to sell a discounted phone.

Within a few years web-shops started to operate selling contracts without the phone, and then paying back the subsidy as lump sum to the customer. With many people by then already owning a phone they didn't see the need of needing a new one, and would rather get cash back. They were quite successful.

Maybe this opens the door for such resellers in the US? To be able to sell contracts with the subsidy but without the phone? I bet there are plenty of people that don't even want a new phone, when their old one works fine. And there are people that want the latest and greatest phone every six months, yet have an existing contract already. Nothing stopping them from buying a new one, optionally reselling the not-so-new one second hand, and putting their sim into their new phone.

And with so many people out of work... who can object against opening up a market, allowing many jobs to be created in the process?!

Re:Data plan cost the same

[pandrijeczko]

The short answer is: because people want it.

Sorry, but someone is not right in the head if they fork out $649 for a product that will be obsololete in a year, whether it's made by Apple or anyone else - although Apple ARE the yearly upgrade kings.

I don't know how it works in the US but here in the UK with the amount of competition there is in the mobile phone space, a smartphone contract with carriers like Orange and Vodafone is going to be a minimum of 18 months such that you're paying a reasonably low monthly charge, and probably a year into that contract you will be entitled to a free upgrade phone and, if you're lucky, get the carrier to give you the unlock codes for the old phone.

I also work for a US-centric company and when American colleagues come over here for meetings, invariably they are walking about with older unlocked phones and Pay-As-You-Go sims that they bought as soon as they arrived in the country, because that seems the cheapest way of making calls when outside your home country.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[iampiti]

AFAIK this is not illegal in the EU. I believe that carriers offer better conditions to people that bring their own unlocked phones simply because it benefits them. Al least in Spain it's this way. It seems logical to me (that they give you better conditions if you bring your own phone) since you don't have to pay the phone to the carrier. In my carrier, for instance, I get the same rates as people who get their phone from them but, unlike them, I can terminate my contract at any time without any penalties. I can take my number to any company that offers me better prices at any time.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Tug3]

When I was living in US, I was happily using T-Mobile (2G) with my (and wife's) iPhone 3G. It wasn't slow at all for maps (most common use), emails, weather.com or the occasional safari. I bought our iPhones couple years ago in Belgium where law states that operator has to unlock all phones for free if requested so by the customer. But then again, they got this thing called freedom in their country...

Anyhow. I first signed up with AT&T prepaid, but it turned out that after a week or two the data stopped working. They blocked iPhone data on prepaid!!! And because I'd never lived in US before, I didn't have local credit history. And even when I had statements from three major credit card companies of having been a long time customer with no issues at all and statement from my employer about my employment in US, AT&T still wanted a $1000 deposit to any other contract!!! Screw them!

So, I asked T-Mobile for a connection and all they required was that I pay each month in advance for a family plan. Guess who I signed up with...

Only catch was that iPhone on T-Mobile is limited to 2G speeds. Well, that turned out to be no issue at all as the connection was reliable and more coverage than AT&T 3G anyway. Also the price was way lower as the sales clerk actually gave us cheaper data plans, as he knew that we could only use 2G anyway. And as an added bonus my iPhone's battery life went up a notch as I could turn off the 3G altogether!

So, yes. Living with T-Mobile 2G can be a blessing, compared to AT&T 3G...

Re:Data plan cost the same

[DaLiNKz]

I'm not sure which web you're browsing but my data use browsing web alone can exceed 75mb a day easily.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Anonymous Coward]

You need to read the Itunes terms of service. You're ONLY aloud to use Itunes in the USA and very restricted other locations. It doesn't even say you can use it in Canada...

Re:Data plan cost the same

[squiggleslash]

T-Mobile offers "Even More Plus" plans, albeit you now have to ask for them over the phone (you can't select them from the website.) These are plans that are what you describe - lower cost plans with no contract and no subsidy, costing around $10-20 per month per device less than their regular plans.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[squiggleslash]

HSPA+ is backward compatible with HSPA (it's just an extension of the protocol, not a completely different system.) An iPhone 4 that supported the AWS bands would, indeed, work well on T-Mobile, taking full advantage of the 3G speeds, but, alas, the iPhone 4 doesn't support those frequencies.

I suspect with AT&T planning to buy and close T-Mobile within the next year, Apple has no incentive to make the iPhone 5 support the AWS frequencies, but it would have been interesting to see if they would have done if AT&T hadn't proposed doing that.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[cpu6502]

Not correct. When a contract is modified, it becomes a NEW contract and BOTH parties must accept the new contract. This can be done automatically through silent consent, but you can also speak-up and say, "No I reject the new contract," and it becomes null.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Anonymous Coward]

The data plan will cost the same as buying it on a contract. Only TMobile gives a $10 discount. The govt should make this practice illegal like it's done in the EU.

Yes, because the EU does everything right. If you don't want to pay for it, don't buy it.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe that even Verizon phones don't work on Sprint's network. I do know that if you buy a phone to use with Sprint you have to call them up to activate it, so you can't just swap in a SIM card as you can do with GSM networks.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[PopeRatzo]

I never said otherwise.

I know you didn't. I wasn't contradicting you, I was just expanding on what you said.

I'm not sure what you are arguing about.

Not arguing. Replies aren't always disagreement, friend.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Andy Dodd]

Yes, but at a severe reduction in functionality since the iPhone can only operate as a 2G phone on T-Mobile's network.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Macrat]

Yes, but at a severe reduction in functionality since the iPhone can only operate as a 2G phone on T-Mobile's network.

There's nothing "severe" about it.

My iPhone 3GS gets 300kbs from T-Mobile's EDGE service which is a step up from my previous phone getting 40kbs GPRS.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[MeateaW]

Hi,

I (my company) forked out 650 dollars for my iPhone here in Australia.

Why would I do this instead of paying 300 dollars? My plan was cheaper because I wasn't paying off my phone, I upgraded out of my 2 year contract sooner, I got a better phone. I can travel overseas and save hundreds of dollars on roaming phone charges. I like this game, can you think of any other reasons? Oh heres one! I can use the "personal hotspot" feature without paying extra. Ooh I have been able to use the old-style tethering for the last 3 years without paying extra too! (thats 120 dollars per year value right there!)

One day; one of your carriers will go: "heey... we could get more people if we didn't *force* them to buy a phone and charged them less!!!" (just like it is everywhere else where you can buy unlocked phones, or more importantly have consumer protection laws that REQUIRE your phone providers to unlock phones when you are out of contract)

Just because you can't see beyond your current market doesn't mean there isn't a slightly better model just around the corner. When telecoms are forced to treat you like a customer, you might see actual benefits. Phone unlocking should be mandatory after contracts (or for a fee) in the US. I really don't understand why it isn't.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[MeateaW]

I realise it was a mispost.

but how is 1068 dollars cheaper than 750 dollars?

Re:Data plan cost the same

[mspohr]

If you are addicted to porn or similar activities which use a lot of bandwidth then this plan is not for you.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[hazydave]

There are both good and bad reasons for the crazy high price on an unlocked smartphone.

The good reason is simple: carriers (in theory) subsudize the price of the phone, in order to get consumers to agree to muli year contracts. If they don't pay, naturally you have to make up the difference.

The bad reason is a reflection of the immense power of the carriers, particularly in the USA. I mean, up until this point, Apple had only two actual customers ror the iPhone in the US: Verizon and AT&T. You know that neither is paying anything close to $649 for an iPhone.

In fact, carriers pay a fixed percentage of the MSRP for any phone they resell. If a manufacturer wants to set a reasonable price for a phone, they are welcome to do so.... but that would mean losing money on each telco sale, or not selling through the carriers at all.

What do I mean by a reasonable price? Something in keeping with other CE devices. A 32GB iPod Touch retails for $299. The 32GB iPhone costs maybe $50 more to make, so it should run $399, maybe $449 tops. Not $749.. that additional cost is basically a cell phone tax, levied by he carriers on anyone not playing the contract game.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah but do you really save money?
$199 + 24 months * $40/month == $1160
vs.
$649 + 24 months * $25/month == $1249

I'm honestly surprised that you of all people would limit your calculations based on replacing the phone as soon as the contract is up. You, who hold on to so much stuff because "it still works well enough". Please note that I am not saying that that is a bad thing. In fact I think that is a very smart decision as you will soon see. I'm just surprised you didn't use it as part of your calculations.

Anyway, let's look at 3 years down the road.
$199 + 36 months * $40/month == $1639
$649 + 36 months * $25/month == $1549
Suddenly you've saved $90 (Since, y'know, they never lower your bill once the subsidized phone is "paid for").

Now 4 years.
$199 + 48 months * $40/month == $2119
$649 + 48 months * $25/month == $1849
$270 saved.

5 years.
$199 + 48 months * $40/month == $2599
$649 + 48 months * $25/month == $2149
$450 saved.

6 years.
$199 + 48 months * $40/month == $3079
$649 + 48 months * $25/month == $2449
$630 saved.

So yes, you do save money, if you keep the phone long enough.

Re:Data plan cost the same

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe it is based on the assumption that, although they will never lower your bill once a subsidized phone is paid off, you might be able to negotiate a lower bill from the get-go if you bring your own phone.

That price

[Anonymous Coward]

is outrageous. I won't be buying one for sure.

Re:That price

[Skarecrow77]

Freedom isn't free.
It costs a hefty fucking fee.
That's right freedom costs a buck 'o five.

Well, in this case, it costs $450.

Re:That price

[MikeDirnt69]

Outrageous is 16gb for $100. SD Cards are too mainstream.

Re:That price

[pnewhook]

Freedom is another word for nothing left to lose (Janis Joplin)

Re:That price

[node 3]

You should see the prices for unlocked top-tier Android phones!

Re:That price

[Drooling Iguana]

Kris Kristofferson, actually.

Re:That price

[RDW]

'Outrageous is 16gb for $100. SD Cards are too mainstream.'

I suppose component cost has almost nothing to do with it. The 32Gb iPod Touch goes for $299. Sure, the iPhone costs more to make, but $450 more..? They charge whatever they can get away with charging, and the 32Gb phone is the 'premium' model.

Re:That price

[pnewhook]

Yea, but her version was more popular

Re:That price

[pixelpusher220]

Outrageous is that when you bring your own phone, the carrier still charges you the same price on the 'service'. If the 2 year contract is meant to amortize the subsidized phone price then why the fsck do I have to pay it for service when I bring my own phone?

And, yet, AT&T won't unlock current locked iPh

[yossie]

So, knowing better than to waste my time, I called AT&T today and, as expected, "Apple still doesn't allow us to unlock iPhones." Anyone have a clue if this policy is ever going away?

They look to be much cheaper

[milbournosphere]

than in the UK: http://store.apple.com/uk/browse/home/shop_iphone/family/iphone?mco=MTAyNTQzMjI

Re:They look to be much cheaper

[Anonymous Coward]

It is cheaper, but not that much. UK prices include 20% VAT.

Re:They look to be much cheaper

[MoonBuggy]

Par for the course - electronics in the UK have always been overpriced (the 20% VAT included in the UK figures does make up some of the disparity, but not all of it). If anyone cares, the ex-VAT prices are $696 and $835.

What I find much more interesting is that they're charging an extra £100 (or $100, as it happens) for 16GB more of flash. Even a fast microSD card will set you back less than a third of that as a standalone retail product, so the extra profit Apple must be making on the high-capacity models is huge.

Re:They look to be much cheaper

[milbournosphere]

Oops, I'm in the habit of thinking that taxes are added on. Forgot about the VAT.

Re:They look to be much cheaper

[MoonBuggy]

Also, as I mentioned a little further down, the profits on any iPhone must be fairly absurd to begin with, since it's really just an iPod touch with a $50 3G chipset and a couple of minor software tweaks, yet it retails at a $450 premium on the 32GB model (a total of 2.5 times the $299 retail price of the iPod).

Re:They look to be much cheaper

[makomk]

Actually, it turns out that MicroSD cards are fractionally cheaper than bare flash chips for various reasons... not that much cheaper though.

No one's gettin' my kidney

[Fibe-Piper]

I don't care how much shinier or slimmer or hippsterific this is, I'd rather use a payphone than dish out $700 bones for this + $70 a month in service fees.

Re:No one's gettin' my kidney

[Graham J - XVI]

In other news: Get off my lawn!

Re:No one's gettin' my kidney

[Virtucon]

Just where do you expect to find a pay phone?

Re:No one's gettin' my kidney

[loftling]

Maybe there's an app for finding nearby pay phones... And anyway, it's not a phone. It's a great pocket computer with a built-in phone app.

Re:No one's gettin' my kidney

[Virtucon]

Apple would prohibit you from putting it on the App Store and then sell it to you themselves in six months or bundle it with the next release of IOS.

Re:No one's gettin' my kidney

[joh]

You're paying $70 a month for fees because at least half of this are installments for the price of the phone and the remaining fees for the actual service are artificially high because there's no real competition in the US.

$70 a month... Elsewhere in the developed world you can keep a whole family using smartphones including data and tethering for that kind of money. "Bring your own phone and pick one of half a dozen carriers with dozens of plans and switch to another one at will" is a market. What the US has isn't a market.

Re:No one's gettin' my kidney

[MoonBuggy]

It's a great pocket computer with a built-in phone app.

Very true. The bit I can't get my head around is why that phone app (plus maybe $50 worth of 3G hardware) adds $450 to the cost of an otherwise equivalent pocket computer, retailing from Apple for $299.

Re:No one's gettin' my kidney

[black soap]

I think there's an App for that.

Re:No one's gettin' my kidney

[node 3]

Durr hurr... I bet they'd also eat his children, too. lol!

There's absolutely no reason Apple wouldn't allow a payphone finder on the App Store.

Re:No one's gettin' my kidney

[tepples]

You're paying $70 a month for fees because at least half of this are installments for the price of the phone

And T-Mobile is honest about these fees. If you buy a phone up front and go into any T-Mobile store, they'll put you on the SIM-only plan for $10 (voice) or $20 (voice+data) per month less than the contract plan.

Re:No one's gettin' my kidney

[Virtucon]

Wait... TOS Update coming shortly from the Jobsians in California.

It's official, Apple no prohibits Pay Phone finding apps. Kill switches have been initiated. In other news, Kids are now on the menu as well at the new Apple Space Center Cafe. They're called Soylent Green bites.

Re:No one's gettin' my kidney

[Anonymous Coward]

>

$70 a month... Elsewhere in the developed world you can keep a whole family using smartphones including data and tethering for that kind of money. "Bring your own phone and pick one of half a dozen carriers with dozens of plans and switch to another one at will" is a market. What the US has isn't a market.

Not necessarily "developed" world

Edge prices in India : $2 per month for 2GB, no restrictions on tethering,etc.

Call rates : $0.0002235 per second

3G however is insanely expensive : $40/month for 2GB followed by unlimited data at 155kbps

Re:No one's gettin' my kidney

[node 3]

The irony here being that Google has actually used their kill switch, and Apple never has. But since Apple is supposed to be the evil one according to the nerds of slashdot...

Re:No one's gettin' my kidney

[Virtucon]

The irony here being that Google has actually used their kill switch, and Apple never has. But since Apple is supposed to be the evil one according to the nerds of slashdot...

who says Apple is evil? I'm just waiting for them to release the Cent-i-pad... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdR7hCjQNwA Google is Evil, MSFT is Evil, foxconn is evil.. There are special places in hell for all of them.

The question for you is: "Cuddle Fish or Pudding?"

Re:No one's gettin' my kidney

[Anonymous Coward]

Which t-mobile plan is this?

Re:No one's gettin' my kidney

[AK Marc]

I agree. My iPhone (not a v4, sadly) costs me about $15 a month in service fees.

Re:No one's gettin' my kidney

[gmhowell]

It's a great pocket computer with a built-in phone app.

Very true. The bit I can't get my head around is why that phone app (plus maybe $50 worth of 3G hardware) adds $450 to the cost of an otherwise equivalent pocket computer, retailing from Apple for $299.

One chip and a helluva lot of FCC testing.

Re:No one's gettin' my kidney

[loftling]

ipod touch: screen is still "retina" resolution, but it's not the same quality. The camera is not as good as the iphone 4's. There are probably other subtle differences... the iphone 4 is top of the line, the ipod touch has various parts swapped out so that it can be cheaper.

Re:No one's gettin' my kidney

[Cimexus]

Well if you have to pay $70/month you're absolutely right! But I think the hope here is that carriers will now start to offer SIM-only plans that don't include contracted payment instalments for a phone.

I have an iPhone 4 (bought outright/unlocked for close to $1000 USD) and I'm lucky if my bill is more than $15 in a heavy-use month. Under $10 quite a few months. Provided the phone lasts me 2 years or so, that works out cheaper than the 'cheap up-front phone but expensive contracted plan' options like the ones you mention. Plus I can put other SIMs in it when I travel.

Remember, those plan prices you are quoting ~include repayments for the subsidised phone you got when you signed up~. That is, you're paying the $700 for the phone either way - either up front (phone unlocked), or via a component of the monthly contracted plan charge (phone locked). Now that Apple is selling unlocked iPhones in the US like they do everywhere else, carriers will hopefully start offering plans without the built-in phone repayments. The prices will then begin to look a lot more reasonable.

I agree that you'd be completely nuts to buy an unlocked phone and then put it on a $70/month plan that's designed to include phone repayments. You'd be buying TWO iPhones over the course of the 24 month contract (but only getting one, of course!). The good thing about this announcement is that it should hopefully open the door for carriers to introduce SIM-only plans in the US like have always existed in every other country. We can hope, at least... :)

Apple makes stuff, what a surprise!

[Xeranar]

Most of the "subsidized price" discount is never directly paid but instead offered as a small take on the monthly contract. Apple sees this as a way to get a more direct cash flow bonus while letting those willing to buy them take their chances getting them hooked up to AT&T or Verizon since I'm fairly sure the GSM antenna doesn't support T-Mobile's frequency though I may be wrong. All this really points to is that Apple is definitively a manufacturer and wishes to remain that way.

Re:Apple makes stuff, what a surprise!

[kannibal_klown]

since I'm fairly sure the GSM antenna doesn't support T-Mobile's frequency though I may be wrong. All this really points to is that Apple is definitively a manufacturer and wishes to remain that way.

I believe the AT&T iPhone supports the T-Mobile edge frequencies... just not the 3G frequencies.

So you can get a signal and make calls, but forget about doing anything data-related without WiFi unless you're really patient.

The same thing with the old Nexus One (in reverse) made for T-Mobile. You could put it on AT&T network but data was limited to edge.

Re:Apple makes stuff, what a surprise!

[Overzeetop]

It's just like being on an old dialup line, except that back when we all used dialup, websites weren't the MB/page fat-asses they are today.

Re:Apple makes stuff, what a surprise!

[AK Marc]

2G isn't that bad. It works fine for maps and such. Yeah, you won't be streaming video on the youtube app, but email and such are just fine over 2G, I've used them on the original iPhone that was 2G only and it was most certainly usable, even if not as fast.

Re:Apple makes stuff, what a surprise!

[ChunderDownunder]

even on 3G I turn off images and JS. Some sites don't work without the full web2.0/flash experience. Good old slashdot works fine.
My sister-in-law is fine using her phone as a dialup modem. For $AU10/month she uses dialup to connect to her regular ISP and pays only for the call rates through her voice plan. Slower but not pegged at the 300MB/month I get on 3G, which costs an extra $5/m on my plan.

Re:Apple makes stuff, what a surprise!

[Macrat]

I believe the AT&T iPhone supports the T-Mobile edge frequencies... just not the 3G frequencies.

So you can get a signal and make calls, but forget about doing anything data-related without WiFi unless you're really patient.

The same thing with the old Nexus One (in reverse) made for T-Mobile. You could put it on AT&T network but data was limited to edge.

My factory unlocked iPhone 3GS gets 300kbs from T-Mobile's EDGE service.

Nothing about that speed to be patient about. Especially compared to my previous phone which was GPRS only at 40kbs.

Re:Apple makes stuff, what a surprise!

[Cimexus]

Saying it's like dialup is a bit harsh. It's better than dialup. GPRS is like dialup (64 kbps) ... but T-Mobile has EDGE (so-called '2.5 G' data) that will work fine on the iPhone and gives several hundred kbps. That is not fast by any means but it beats the hell out of dialup and is perfectly usable for email, maps and other basic things like that.

I know because I have an iPhone 4 (bought unlocked from Apple) and I put a T-Mobile SIM in it whenever I visit the USA. EDGE data is quite usable, though nowhere near as fast as 3G at home obviously. But provided I'm not trying to stream video or something, it's fine.

Dumb phone

[oldmac31310]

I knew there was a good reason why I still use a dumb phone.

Re:Dumb phone

[Graham J - XVI]

Broke?

Re:Dumb phone

[Anonymous Coward]

I still use a dumb phone, too. Anyone else here on Slashdot using a dumb phone?

BTW, nice music, man, I hope people give it a try. :-)

Re:Dumb phone

[realityimpaired]

Doesn't even cost that much more to switch to cell, actually... you can get unlimited local plans in Canada for $25/mo from some carriers (and $35/mo from the "fight brands" owned by the major players). Compare that against a home phone that'll cost you minimum $20/mo not including call waiting, call display, or voicemail, and the math's easy. In the US, as long as you don't want data, voice doesn't cost *that* much more, from my research...

Re:Dumb phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Smart phones are one of those high-ticket status symbols of the working classes.

Re:Dumb phone

[swanzilla]

Expand your horizons...they are extremely useful tools. Useful too are HTML links...eliminate that pesky cut/paste of URLs for page navigation.

Re:Dumb phone

[PPH]

Motorola RAZR. Dumb enough for ya?

I still have a Motorola DynaTac lying around somewhere. But they bricked it when they knocked out analog service. Too bad, they were a great phone for emergency use. If you couldn't get 911, you could beat an attacker to death with it.

Re:Dumb phone

[dogmatixpsych]

Unless you go with VoIP. I have VoIP at home - call waiting, call display, voicemail, unlimited U.S. and Canada and Puerto Rico calls, voicemail email alerts (plus attaching the message), etc. - that costs only about $4 per month (and I've never had an issue with it). Plus, if I travelled, I could take the router with me and have unlimited phone service wherever I am with decent high speed internet access. There's no way I'm canceling my home internet so that's a given cost any way I go. Even the cheapest cell phone plans in the U.S. will be about $25 - $30 per month (unless you do prepaid). That means I save more than $250 per year compared to the cheapest cell plans.

But, if you are stuck with traditional land lines or Vonage, it would be better just to go with a cell phone. Some of us just happen to be able to get phone service for much cheaper.

Re:Dumb phone

[AK Marc]

I don't know, you can tether with a RAZR and it plays MP3s. It even had an app store, so to speak. Even dumb phones have been smart for a while.

Re:Dumb phone

[oldmac31310]

Haven't had a land line for years. When I say 'dumb phone' I just mean a cell phone that makes calls, texts and not much else worth bothering with.

Re:Dumb phone

[oldmac31310]

Yes! How did you guess?

Re:And, yet, AT&T won't unlock current locked

[sehgalanuj]

Apple not allowing unlocking is a load of nonsense. All across the world there are multiple careers who offer unlocking of iPhones, so obviously Apple is not the culprit, but rather AT&T is. There are some countries where multiple careers offer iPhones and in these places you will find iPhones unlockable through a particular service provider, while another tries to lock you in by not offering that service.

Here in Germany, I had T-Mobile unlock all my iPhones thus far after the contract expires or is terminated. It is nothing but the absolute greed of AT&T that stops them from asking Apple for unlocks.

Apple has nothing to lose with a carrier asking them to unlock an iPhone. The carrier, AT&T, does. Do your own math on who is more likely to be responsible.

Just get one in Canada

[Graham J - XVI]

We've had unlocked iPhones here in Canada for ages, I don't see why this is big news now. Only $10 more (funny considering our dollar is worth more)

Re:Just get one in Canada

[Pope]

It's news because you couldn't get them unlocked straight from Apple in the USA before, duh. I just hope this stops the insane cross-border grey market that caused the insane lineups when the 4 came out last year. I'd put good money down to bet that 50-75% of the people walking out of Apple stores last year with 2 iPhone 4s were selling immediately selling them.

Re:Just get one in Canada

[Graham J - XVI]

I didn't say it wasn't news, I said it wasn't big news. One country finally gets unlocked iPhones and every tech site covers it like it's the second coming of some fictional character.

Re:Just get one in Canada

[Anonymous Coward]

Eh, the tech media is pretty US-centric, so it's to be expected.

At Last

[Anonymous Coward]

The US catches up to other parts of the world.

Unlocked iPhones have been available from Apple here in the UK for years.
Then you have a choice of phone/data plans from many different carriers who all (surprise, surprise) all use the same phone technology. No CDMA/GSM wars here!

If you really want something that runs iOS

[Montezumaa]

If you really want something that runs iOS, then get an iPad2 with Wi-fi+3G, then get a cheap phone. The iPhone has become very unattractive, as of late, and it is not getting any better. You can spend another $100 and get a much bigger screen and 64GB of storage.

I really do not understand unsubsidized prices of phone anymore. Back when equipment was actually expensive, sure, fine. This is 2011, the technology is rather old, and either Qualcomm is causing the ridiculous prices on the cellular boards, or the phone manufacturers and the cellular corporations are simply looking to make more money off of the uncertainty of whether or not the phones will get activated.

I would also ditch AT&T, while everyone is at it, and go to Verizon. At least Verizon treats its customers marginally better.

Re:If you really want something that runs iOS

[kannibal_klown]

If you really want something that runs iOS, then get an iPad2 with Wi-fi+3G, then get a cheap phone. The iPhone has become very unattractive, as of late, and it is not getting any better. You can spend another $100 and get a much bigger screen and 64GB of storage.

Yeh, but I'm a big guy and yet even I don't have pockets big enough for an iPad. /sarcasm

But I wouldn't be surprised if it was cheaper to use the iPad and some IP thing like Skype.

Re:If you really want something that runs iOS

[jeffmeden]

I would also ditch AT&T, while everyone is at it, and go to Verizon. At least Verizon treats its customers marginally better.

[Citation Needed]...

At least AT&T offers their customers the "freedom" to choose how much data they want to use, and to pay accordingly. Personally, I would love the option to pay $15 a month for 200MB given that I rarely am out of WiFi range and could easily adjust my usage to stay below that limit. Instead, on Verizon, I MUST have a $29 "unlimited" data plan regardless of how I want to use my own, paid for, not-under-contract smartphone. Yay Verizon.

Re:If you really want something that runs iOS

[Virtucon]

The 64GB IPad2 with all you mention is about $830 on Best Buy's web site.

I do agree with you on smart phone prices but since people will line up to just have something with an Apple logo on it, then high prices will prevail.

Re:If you really want something that runs iOS

[vlm]

I really do not understand unsubsidized prices of phone anymore.

Here's my mystery equation:

$186 ipod touch (a fair price) + $29 virgin mobile pay as you go phone (a fair price) somehow = $649

Truly a mystery. Of course you don't really need the phone if you've got wifi coverage and facetime, which makes it even weirder.

Re:If you really want something that runs iOS

[Overzeetop]

You know, I thought about that, but I look really silly trying to put an iPad two my ear when I try to make a phone call.

Verizon treats is customers better than AT&T? Is that one of those "double all of the volunteer's wages" jokes? Face it, they both suck rocks.

Re:If you really want something that runs iOS

[Anonymous Coward]

It's all relative to what your needs/desires are for you phone service, and even from there, what area you're in. Where I'm at, Verizon is much better in almost every way (T-Mobile even better in some ways if you exclude everything about the two outside of this area). Yeah, you have to pay for the "unlimited" data either way, but at least you can make phone calls without dropping the calls constantly and the customer service people are nice around here, whereas AT&T drops calls all the time and the customer service people are clueless assholes. Plus, right now, Verizon's got 4G in the area that smokes any speed anyone is getting from AT&T around here (I realize this doesn't matter to iPhone, but owning a Thunderbolt, I damn well take advantage of it and have come to see that as one of my standards for phone service recently).

In other areas, I actually hear exactly the opposite on those points. And for people like me, we're not liking that Verizon is talking about getting rid of their Unlimited plan, because it raises the likelihood of some of us needing to pay more (this also makes that whole "unlimited" only complaint moot once it's put into affect, though my 4G point is moot as soon as AT&T catches up as well).

Re:If you really want something that runs iOS

[Coren22]

I don't know what Verizon site you are looking at but I didn't have any problem finding smaller data plans than unlimited...

http://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/mobilebroadband/?page=plans

The phone plans are a bit more difficult to point to, but they have roughly the same data plan costs.

Though it seems much more difficult for me to even look at the data plans anymore, but when I bought my DroidX a few months ago, the option was definitely there to pay less for less data, but I just feel unlimited is the better way to go. I just can't wait for Netflix, though I imagine it will only work through wifi which kind of defeats the purpose.

Re:If you really want something that runs iOS

[Coren22]

I agree with the treatment comment Montezumaa made, but it is true that being the better of the two isn't a great goal when they both suck...

Re:If you really want something that runs iOS

[jeffmeden]

Sorry, but your conclusion from reading the site is completely wrong (not your fault, Verizon is TERRIBLE about this.)

If you have a smartphone (and they decide what is and isnt a smartphone) you WILL pay $29 a month for unlimited data, or you won't be connecting to Verizon's network. Period, full stop, end of story. The option was NOT there for the sub-$29 plans when you bought your Droid X (though they might have wanted you to think it was.) Call them and ask to downgrade your plan. It won't happen, not for you, not for anyone. Sub-$29 plans are only available for phone-retrieved data on NON-smartphones, regardless of contract status.

Re:If you really want something that runs iOS

[jeffmeden]

And for people like me, we're not liking that Verizon is talking about getting rid of their Unlimited plan, because it raises the likelihood of some of us needing to pay more (this also makes that whole "unlimited" only complaint moot once it's put into affect, though my 4G point is moot as soon as AT&T catches up as well).

Don't worry, I won't have anything less to complain about if Verizon ditches their unlimited plan. What they are in all likelihood going to do (unless competition actually picks up in the next 6 months) is switch the $29 plan from "unlimited" to something like 2GB. Then, they will have a $39 (or so) plan for 5GB. They won't be offering smartphones any option priced less than $29 a month; it's just too big of a gold mine for them.

Re:If you really want something that runs iOS

[Cimexus]

That's true, and for someone on a budget would be a very logical choice.

But don't forget that the iPhone 4 hardware is not just an iPod Touch with a cellular phone chip in it. The CPU and GPU are significantly more powerful. The iPhone 4 display is far superior. The battery (capacity, and life) is different. The iPhone has a proper GPS chip in it, the iPod Touch doesn't. And so on. So they aren't exactly equivalent solutions.

A new iPhone every 6 months?

[Anonymous Coward]

I had an iPhone 3G before and it seemed like I had to buy a new iPhone every 6 months or face OS updates that made my phone useless.

Buying a (now) old iPhone 4 for over $600? No thanks.

Re:A new iPhone every 6 months?

[sehgalanuj]

The release cycle of iPhones has been pretty much around once a year. How did you end up buying a new one every 6 months? Also, why not just wait rather than have the latest greatest immediately? Lastly, no one tells you to buy an iPhone 4 now. But, at least for those who would like an unlocked iPhone in the US, there is a simple option rather than getting one off eBay or from Canada.

Re:A new iPhone every 6 months?

[Anonymous Coward]

I had an iPhone 3G before and it seemed like I had to buy a new iPhone every 6 months or face OS updates that made my phone useless.

Buying a (now) old iPhone 4 for over $600? No thanks.

Luddite post from a troll luddite. Why are you even on /.? That or you choose to be willfully ignorant, that is the worst kind of all.

Subsidized?

[SquareVoid]

Why is it that everyone talks about this subsidizing? When I bought my Nexus One, AT&T didn't offer me a break because I paid full price on my phone. There is no discount at all, there is no subsidizing in this equation. The only down side to buying a phone with contract is the contract life itself.

Re:Subsidized?

[MoonBuggy]

That doesn't mean that the bundled handsets aren't subsidised, it just means they're totally screwing over the customers who turn up with their own handset. In countries with actual competition in the mobile market you see SIM only deals on a rolling one-month contract for maybe 50% less than equivalent deals with shiny smartphones.

Of course, in your situation, the logical thing to do there is take the 'free' handset with the highest resale value, eBay it, and use that income to somewhat offset the price of the monthly payments.

Meanwhile, in Soviet Canuckistan...

[Anonymous Coward]

They are more expensive in Canada: http://store.apple.com/ca/browse/home/shop_iphone/family/iphone

$659 CAD for 16GB
$779 CAD for 32GB

Given that 1 USD = 0.968 CAD, we should be paying less in Canada.

Sigh.

Re:Meanwhile, in Soviet Canuckistan...

[lennier1]

Maybe you're subsidizing some bribes to Canadian politicians you didn't know about?

Re:And, yet, AT&T won't unlock current locked

[slimjim8094]

AT&T is actually not bad about unlocking phones. They do all their other phones after (IIRC) 6 months in good standing.

But it is on them to tell Apple to unlock, not the other way around. As I understand it, the iPhone asks the Apple server on activation whether it should be locked or not - but AT&T can tell Apple to change the flag and they'll do it, based on the fact that, well, they do in other countries.

So it's very weird.

Will AT&T unlock then?

[line-bundle]

So will AT&T unlock our iPhones like thry do ther phones. I think the reason they had is now gone.

Re:And, yet, AT&T won't unlock current locked

[realityimpaired]

There are some countries where you can buy an unlocked iPhone by buying it directly from Apple instead of from a carrier.... Canada is one of them, and the Canadian version most definitely will work with ATT (since it works on Telus, Bell, and Rogers, who all use the same technology and frequencies as ATT).... of course, I ended up buying an LG phone for half the price with more features. :)

Re:And, yet, AT&T won't unlock current locked

[Anonymous Coward]

All across the world there are multiple careers who offer unlocking of iPhones

Damn, my careers adviser never told me that.

Unlocked

[spikenerd]

Am I the only one who read this to mean that Apple had suddenly come to their senses about DRM? I was so excited! Alas, these are not jail-broken phones. They remain firmly behind the iron bars of Apple telling you what you are and are not allowed to do with the hardware you bought, even though the carrier is no longer involved to require it.

Re:Unlocked

[betterunixthanunix]

Yeah I read it that way at first too, and then I remembered that this is Apple we are talking about.

Re:Unlocked

[mr100percent]

A non-jailbroken phone isn't exactly DRM, it's not about copy-protection. And as for Apple DRM, they're the ones who removed it from iTunes music and offer the RIAA-approved amnesty program with iTunes match.

Re:Unlocked

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, you are the lone idiot.

Who does this?

[jeffmeden]

From TFA:

"Get all the features of iPhone 4—FaceTime video calling, Retina display, HD video recording, and more—in a phone that you can activate and use on the supported GSM wireless carrier of your choice, such as AT&T in the United States," Apple said in a note. "If you don't want a multiyear service contract or if you prefer to use a local carrier when traveling abroad, the unlocked iPhone 4 is the best choice."

So as an American, you either need to be someone who wants to spend $649 on a smartphone but intends to use it for less than 2 years (perhaps, planning on moving to the moon?) or you need to be someone who is so frequently overseas that you have your own overseas SIM and would like to be able to switch between networks with ease. How many people is that? Any hands in the slashdot crowd?

Re:Who does this?

[sehgalanuj]

I travel often enough to have sim cards from UK, Germany, Hong Kong, China, India, Thailand and Vietnam in my kit. Unlocked cellphones really are useful, not only if you travel abroad but also if you decide to switch a different carrier. Freedom is good.

Re:Who does this?

[jo_ham]

Well they can't win, can they? Everyone is yelling at them for having a locked phone, then they release an unlocked one in the US (in the rest of the world this is a non-story - welcome to the 21st century USA) and now a large portion of this thread is talking about how no one would possibly want that.

Re:Who does this?

[geekmux]

I travel often enough to have sim cards from UK, Germany, Hong Kong, China, India, Thailand and Vietnam in my kit. Unlocked cellphones really are useful, not only if you travel abroad but also if you decide to switch a different carrier. Freedom is good.

Yes, and chances are if you travel that extensively, you've likely got the "freedom" of not being concerned about your cell phone bill either, as your employer is likely picking up the tab...if you're traveling that extensively for personal reasons, you likely can afford any locked or unlocked option anyway.

I merely bring this up as the overall cost is a sticking point in this entire discussion.

Re:Who does this?

[PitaBred]

Too bad the US networks don't give you full service. There's no competition, so your service speeds are limited by the frequencies your phone can receive.

Re:Who does this?

[sehgalanuj]

For most people, that would be true. However, I'm actually a student and most of my bills are not borne by the University. This is why I care about abolishing my insane roaming charges. A higher investment once ensures that my mobility is not impacted and I have similar level of service wherever I travel. My monthly bill goes down as well because I can pick a cheap pre-paid provider since my voice calls are minimal. The problem here is not the overall cost, but the upfront cost, because that tends to be higher.

Let me elaborate. In Germany, where I live currently, a subsidized iPhone through T-Mobile costs €200 for students and comes with a €40/month 24 month contract. Overall cost is €1160. If I get the iPhone unlocked, I get it for €630. Now, my monthly cost with a prepaid provider like Fonic is never over €15 for a month. The worst case scenario here is that over a 2 year period the phone+service ends up costing me €990. However, it is always much lesser because out of 12 months, I spend about 4 months abroad. So, in actuality it is never more than €870. I thus save at least €270, which I get to keep as spending money when I travel. In the future, I will get my family/friends to buy one from the US for me and save another €100-150 on the cost of the iPhone.

Add to all of this the convenience that I can at any time change my carrier or move to another country without having to worry about paying a large sum to cancel a contract, and the "cost" reduces even more.

On the other hand, my father travels internationally a lot and his company picks up the tab. So he doesn't care about the cell phone bill. Even roaming is picked up by the company and so they don't care about phones being locked or unlocked. To them, the convenience of being able to always reach their employee at the same number is greater than cost involved for that "assurance".

As such, unlocked phones add freedom on most people's pockets. If you cannot afford an unlocked iPhone, you likely should not get a locked one either because you are then stretching your budget.

Of course, in the US where there are only 2 GSM providers (might become one in the future), unlocked phones don't really offer a visible advantage.

PS: Traveling that much even as a relatively poor grad student is quite possible. You just need to save, budget and stick to plans! ;-)

Re:Who does this?

[node 3]

Why the chorus of slashdot nerds decrying choice? Isn't "choice" the battle cry around here?

Oh, it's Apple that's offering choice? Well, that changes everything!

Re:Who does this?

[mlts]

I'm not that worried about the cost for an unlocked phone. Why? The secondary market. If I keep the iPhone in a case and have it in good condition, an unlocked phone will be easily worth $500-600 on eBay. Some auctions get so crazy that people actually may pay for more than what the phone is worth, although one has to be careful because of potential cheats [1]. So, if I sell my iPhone 4 after picking up the next gen, I'm really not out $600... but out $100-$200.

[1]: It is an old trick for scammers to have a broken iPhone lying around then claim that the seller shipped them that. Then they demand their money back from PayPal, or do a chargeback.

Re:Who does this?

[Anonymous Coward]

$650 for a $220 device(Ipod + radio) is a problem. Unless one thinks the incremental cost of adding a cellular radio is $450.

Re:Who does this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone seems to have a problem with the unlocked phone price. Truth is your data plan should be discounted if your not in a contract because you are not paying for a phone any more. The goal of all this is simply to get honest pricing. Current contracts shouldn't be contracts at all, but instead a payment plan for your phone. X up front and Y over 24 payments. That Y should go away once your done paying for the phone or they don't have an excuse for the contract or phone discount.

Re:Who does this?

[geekmux]

I stand corrected on your status, that's fantastic you are able to travel so extensively! Gives me hope one day to travel myself.

And yes, I agree with a couple of your other points. There aren't enough options available anymore in the US to make for true competition, much less options available to the consumer for GSM services. Also, to address how businesses see "value" in paying for plans such as your fathers, makes me wonder why they just all don't get or keep a landline (office) number (or Google Voice number), and simply forward all calls to whatever phone number the traveling businessman is using at the time. Dunno, guess companies don't want the hassle, and this shouldn't surprise me that much, my company is just as guilty.

Re:Who does this?

[sehgalanuj]

Yeah, I agree. The ignorance of companies in terms of cost reduction possibilities with modern telephony is just astounding to me personally. They always had a landline at home and office for him, but that too is damn expensive for him to make international calls, which he has to do for work and remain on them for hours on since they are conference calls. So, I recently installed an IP phone for him at home, just to trial and his bills have reduced by over 100%. Needless to say, bosses are so pleased that they are considering similar systems for all non-US based executives.

Either way, I sure hope you get to travel soon! It is, without a doubt, one of the best things in life.

Re:Who does this?

[mr100percent]

Sure, there are many people I know who both have iPhones and go to medical school in the Caribbean etc. An unlocked iPhone lets you switch SIMs between the countries. Big market.

Re:Who does this?

[jawtheshark]

As someone whose tab gets taken up from their employer, I can assure you that if you "overuse" your phone abroad, they will have a stern talk with you. *sigh* Luckily, I didn't have to pay for the 250€++ roaming charges, but I had to promise to be more careful.

Besides, not everyone who travels often does so on for a business purpose. Self-employed people are also out of luck.

Re:Who does this?

[ceoyoyo]

Or someone who visits Canada frequently. Or someone who wants to upgrade or replace his phone early and doesn't want to pay full price AND have to extend his contract.

Quite a few people even fall into your very restricted category. SIMs cost somewhere between nothing and about $20. If you're going to be somewhere (like either of your nearest neighbouring countries) for a week or two it can be worth picking one up.

Re:Who does this?

[grouchomarxist]

For many counties buying a SIM is not a big deal. While a minority there are probably a good number of /.er who travel overseas frequently either for work or pleasure. For example, I live outside of the U.S., but it would be convenient if when I was in the states I could use my iPhone at low cost, but unfortunately my model is locked.

Re:Who does this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm sadly this is still a story in Japan, iPhone is only sold by (and is locked to) Softbank mobile. (Mine is unlocked.. but that was somewhat unofficial)...

Re:Who does this?

[Cimexus]

Regarding the travel that's not true. I travel overseas quite regularly (multiple times per year) out of my own pocket, for personal reasons. And I did this even when I was a poor-ass student. I live in Australia - international travel is a very typical and normal thing for most people here (official statistics are that at any given point in time, 1 in 20 Australians are overseas, and 1 in 4 travel overseas at least once in any given calendar year).

PARTICULARLY in the US, money shouldn't be a huge impediment to travelling. You can travel abroad quite easily compared to here:

- You have much lower airfares compared to where I live (compare a Australia-US return flight price, on an airline's Australian site, with the exact same trip in reverse quoted from the same airline's US site - Americans typically pay almost HALF as much);

- Due to your higher population, you have a greater choice of airlines and routes;

- You are closer to a lot more places, meaning fares to anywhere in Europe, the Americas and even much of Asia are cheaper, and flight times significantly shorter.

Anyway - to bring this back onto topic: unlocked phones are the norm here and always have been. Locked phones are useless even if you don't travel, since you can't even switch domestic providers when you want (which people tend to do quite regularly here since the phone companies are always improving the value of their plans to compete with each other, particularly for data plans).

Re:Who does this?

[Anonymous Coward]

People are complaining due to the price. Like b0bby said below, there's a $400 price difference between the same iPod Touch model and the phone. It is something you can overlook when it's part of a monthly payment plan, but when you're buying it outright, it's really hard to justify unless you're filthy rich or must have a legal, unlocked phone (for international travel).

Re:Who does this?

[jeffmeden]

The sticking point I have is that no network, shy of T-Mobile (arguably the least capable network of any in the US) actually differentiates between customers who have a contract-free/unlocked phone, and those that don't. This basically punishes anyone who buys an unlocked phone who later goes on to buy 2 years of service from a major carrier, because you "could" have gotten the thing for free/almost free and ended up paying the same for your service. So, for someone who travels outside the US only on a few rare occasions in those 2 years, what good does this do them? None at all, in fact after 2 years they paid more for this than if they just got the subsidized phone and put up with the contract.

Good for Apple for offering an unlocked phone. To Hell with AT&T and Verizon for not putting it to better use, since they would rather keep you trapped in a contract than give you the chance to pay up-front and enjoy less expensive service in the long run.

Re:Who does this?

[jeffmeden]

A week or two outside the country making calls without a locked phone is worth about $450? Jeebus, put Skype on the thing, connect it to a free Wi-Fi spot somewhere, and get your talking in for about $10. If it were me (and I only travel outside the US rarely so it's not) and I needed full "cellphone" capabilities I would get a junker GSM handset off ebay for $20 or less and just put up with using a "dumbphone" for the duration. Some people see a benefit in this, sure, but the thing that pisses me off is it just further demonstrates how pathetic the carrier choice in the US is.

Re:And, yet, AT&T won't unlock current locked

[drb226]

Strong agree. Apple has everything to gain by allowing iPhones to be unlocked: it makes their product more attractive. "Apple doesn't allow us" is pure BS.

Seems High

[b0bby]

Considering that you can buy a 32GB ipod touch for $300, an extra $450 to add phone functionality seems really steep. But they're looking to maximize their profits, so I guess they figure that someone will pay it.

Re:Seems High

[node 3]

That's already what they charge. We just haven't been directly exposed to that price here in the US. And the iPhone is much more than just an iPod touch with a cell phone.

Re:Seems High

[samkass]

It's also got GPS, a much better camera, and an IPS screen. And antennae and 3G chips aren't free in either component or integration costs. But really, yeah, it's the value (not cost) of the phone that increases the price the most.

Re:Seems High

[b0bby]

The ipod touch also has the retina display, though maybe the iphone screen is better in some way; all the other chips (GPS, 3G, etc) can't be anywhere near $100 - I'd bet the cost difference to manufacture is under $50. I agree that it's the value they're selling, it's not the cost of the components.

Re:Seems High

[ideaz]

Agreed! Stop bitching about the price being high guys, its just like any other apple product, expensive. But those you want (need in some cases) will get it no matter. Also, in EU and Asia you pay the full price of the phone upfront and gain carrier freedom. And a decent phone is anywhere between $400-$500 unlocked anyways. This gives a great option for those living in countries the iphone is not sold yet to use it.

Re:Seems High

[SoftwareArtist]

Or a more directly relevant comparison: you can buy an unlocked G2x for $500, or an unlocked Nexus S for $529. Both of those are pretty comparable phones to the iPhone, and arguably are better. For example, the G2x has a dual core processor and supports 4G. It only has 8 GB built in storage, but you can add a 32 GB SD card for $50. Given that, $749 for a 32 GB iPhone seems pretty egregious.

Re:Seems High

[Anonymous Coward]

To be fair, the differences aren't just that. I am not super familiar with the iPod touch 4G models, but I believe there are at least the following differences:
1. 3G data and phone capabilities.
2. Better screen (IPS on the iPhone 4)
3. MUCH better rear camera (with LED flash) on the iPhone
4. iPhone has a bigger battery
5. Although newer iPod touch models have Bluetooth, I think they are still missing real GPS.
6. Gyro sensors and stuff? Not sure, they might be in iPod touch too.
7. Built in speaker and mic (seems they have this now with on the 4G for use with facetime, but not a speaker for phone use, right?)
8. Sensor to tell when your face is close (See no.7)

Even if you don't want to use it as a phone, the camera pushes some people over, as does the GPS, and (especially) battery life.
If you want to use Skype or some other VOIP software, the built-in speaker is .. a nice to have.

Google should sue Apple over patent infringement

[Omnifarious]

Selling an unlocked phone was Google's thing. Apple is stealing Google's idea. Really, do you think Apple would've ever done it had Google not done it first?

In the spirit of how Apple would like IP law to work when it's working for them, I think Google should sue Apple over the idea.

Re:What the market will bear.

[MetalliQaZ]

It isn't quite so simple. This is a common argument (especially from republicans) but it relies on an actual free market. Cellular phone carriers do not qualify in the US, because they have government-enforced monopolies* on the spectrum that the cell phones use. They use that power to force unfair pricing strategies on the consumer. Usually they do this while saying that they are striving to lower prices for the consumer. They are lying.

* Actually a duo-opoly, with ATT and Verizon sharing the exclusive access. The reason they don't have to compete is because they don't share phone technology. EDGE, HSPA, EV-DO, LTE, etc. Users of one network can't take their business elsewhere.

I have one, eh?

[nblender]

I bought unlocked iphones for wife and I because she doesn't want a data plan or caller-ID, and I don't want things like voice mail, call waiting, visual voice mail, etc etc... So we pick and choose our features instead of being tied to our providers' "iphone plan"... Our total monthly bill is about half what it would be if we went on-contract for a subsidized phone... Over 3 years (minimum contract period for an iphone here in Canada), we save far far more than the difference between the subsidized and full price of the phone... The very few times that my wife wants to check her e-mail is when we're out at the cottage and I'm with her. I turn on 'personal hotspot' for her and she checks her mail...

Not everyone uses their phone the way the carriers want them to.

Re:I have one, eh?

[awyeah]

Who's your provider?

Re:I have one, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

If she doesn't want a data plan, why even bother with an overpriced smartphone? Seems like a total waste of money...

Re:I have one, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed! I am in California do the same. Since I bought my iPhone locked from ebay, and took hurdle of unlocking it myself, so given a chance again, I would rather buy my iPhone from Apple, and use it with my t-mobile prepaid plan :)

Re:I have one, eh?

[wvmarle]

Good to hear I'm not the only person with a smartphone (Android based; not iPhone) without a data account!

Open/public WiFi hotspots are everywhere: open personal hot spots, government run buildings and parks have government WiFi, even some buses come with free WiFi now. Out in the country parks not of course but when I'm there I'm not working, so no need for e-mail.

The only moment I miss network is when I'm in an unfamiliar area and want to look up bus routes. Then I still have to walk to the nearest main road and look at the bus stops.

I have downloaded both Google Map and OpenCycleMap copies of the complete territory, so that part is covered as well. No need for data connection to tell me where I am or how to get where I want to go.

And no network connection is the best ad blocker possible :)

Re:I have one, eh?

[nblender]

solomobile.ca

Re:And, yet, AT&T won't unlock current locked

[jo_ham]

Nonsense - my carrier (ie, not in the US) will quite happily unlock an iPhone. That Apple would prevent it is just not accurate, unless they have some strange carrier-specific terms in the US. Given that it was AT&T doing the strong arming in that initial contract, perhaps that is the case. I get the sense that if they told you that it was down to Apple, their collective nose is now growing.

Re:What the market will bear.

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's too much for you to afford, then you should save up your money and wait until you can afford it.

No, if it's too much, I do not buy the phone or the service.

FTFY

Will AT&T unlock

[Anonymous Coward]

I purchased my iPhone 4 from BestBuy for $599 last year and using it on AT&T network. Will AT&T unlock my phone for international use?

Re:And, yet, AT&T won't unlock current locked

[sehgalanuj]

D'oh! That's what happens when you don't sleep enough.

Re:What the market will bear.

[spire3661]

Considering the spectrum these phones use is PUBLIC PROPERTY that is leased to the telecoms, the 'govt' wont be getting out of telecom regulations anytime soon. You do realize it is impossible to have a fair and reasonable marketplace of any kind without 'govt', right?

Hmmm

[sean.peters]

I'm not sure I understand what the advantage to unlocking a US-based iPhone is. The only GSM providers are AT&T and T-mobile, right? And isn't T-mobile on a different frequency band or something. So you unlock your phone, and your choices are... AT&T. I guess I could see it if you were doing a lot of international travel, but for those of us primarily staying in the US, I don't see the appeal. Or do I have the technical details wrong?

Re:Hmmm

[node 3]

International travel, increased resale value, and the ability to switch over to a prepaid plan/carrier if you want. There are plenty of reasons to want an unlocked iPhone. The real question is, why *wouldn't* you want your iPhone unlocked by AT&T, given the choice?

Re:Hmmm

[sean.peters]

Ok, like I said, I understand if you do international travel. Still not understanding the other two - why would you pay more for an unlocked used phone, when an unlocked phone still can only connect to AT&T? Not to mention that unlocking it yourself really isn't that hard. And what prepaid plan/carriers? Isn't it AT&T with a standard plan or nothing? So, to answer your final question, it's not so much that I *wouldn't* want it, it's just that I don't actually WANT it enough to do anything about it, given that it's not much of an advantage.

Re:Hmmm

[node 3]

Unlocking it isn't easy, and you first have to buy a phone to unlock, which means buying a phone under contract in the US (until just now).

With an unlocked iPhone, you can opt for any American GSM carrier, including many prepaid carriers. That means if you want an iPhone, but don't want to commit to a 2 year contract, you can buy prepaid cards and live on the cheap. Sure, that means you won't get 3G (unless you go with AT&T's network), but a non-3G iPhone is still worthwhile. After all, it's still a phone, still an iPod touch (with some upgraded components), and it's all in one package. And it gives you the option to move over to AT&T if you so desire, or cancel the phone altogether if you hit hard times, whatever.

Basically, the thing I can't understand, is why people seem to think having this as an option isn't a good thing. After all, there are clearly people who want an unlocked iPhone.

Re:Hmmm

[AK Marc]

An unlocked phone will work just fine on T-Mobile for all voice and 2G data. Many people would rather have T-Mobile service at 2G than AT&T at 3G. Also, there's nothing preventing another carrier from starting up, and there are a number of local regional carriers in places neither AT&T nor T-Mobile serve that offer GSM service. So it isn't a question of AT&T or nothing. If it were, then AT&T wouldn't have wasted the time and money locking down the phones in the first place.

Also, you can't go on any pre-paid plan with a locked phone, even AT&T's own pre-paid. If you want a plan other than the AT&T iPhone plan, you have to have an unlocked phone (and it has to be one purchased from somewhere other than AT&T because AT&T refuses service to its own iPhones on anything other than iPhone plans).

That you see no value in that is irrelevant to whether others see value in it. The value of something is set by a standard other than "what I personally would pay for it." So your thoughts on the matter are completely irrelevant to whether anyone else would think it has value and what that value is on the open market.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Edge (2G) is more than enough for most people, now that no carrier has unlimited plan. Most people will settle for the 200MB/mo plan, which makes a perfect sense with Edge, and regular cell download should not be much more than 30-40mb/mo provided all updates are done offline, and email is only synced manually.

I used to have an iPhone and live in a country where data would cost around $ 3 usd per MB. The first ting to do was to jaibreak the iPhone and install sbsettings, in order to kill the edge data download and only use the wi-fi. Only when the data price went down to $ 0.40 usd/mb did I run my phone aways connected. Push was disabled entirely, since it also craps the battery. Cellar data usage was around 30 to 60 mb/mo with heavy use of facebook and skype, all the rest was done on wi-fi.

Re:What the market will bear.

[MobyDisk]

Apple should price their stuff at whatever the market will bear

The discussion isn't about Apple's pricing, it is about the carrier's contracts.

The govt should stay the fuck out of the free market

2) It isn't a free market. The carriers are government-created monopolies and the prices are fixed.

Re:What the market will bear.

[pnewhook]

Actually I agree with AC (and I'm no Rebublican)

There is nothing wrong with the pricing that I can see. Apple can charge what they like. And the cellular providers can charge what they like, clearly they are giving a discount to be tied into a contract.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with this and I see no reason for government interference.

Re:What the market will bear.

[imric]

For a change I agree with an AC spouting "free market!". Even though the telephony market is contracting and will soon be a duopoly in the states. Unless you believe a smart phone should be the common baseline for communications, that is. Unless you think it's impossible to support yourself in any way without a smartphone.

And even if a smartphone is necessary to live (ha!), Boost mobile (for example) has non-contract Android service, IIRC.

Unless cell becomes the only way, until Apple and the big carriers hold an abusive monopoly on service, companies should be free to price themselves out of the market, and idiots should be free to spend their money on luxury goods. The government should only get involved when you are dealing with non-luxury items, if then.

Re:Google should sue Apple over patent infringemen

[sehgalanuj]

I sure hope that your comment comes with a deep dose of sarcasm because Apple has offered unlocked iPhones outside the US much before Google stepped into the phone scene with the Nexus. The US is pretty much one of the last to get officially unlocked iPhones purchasable from Apple.

Re:What the market will bear.

[MightyMartian]

Absolutely the govt should NOT!

The govt should stay the fuck out of the free market and Apple should price their stuff at whatever the market will bear to maximize their profit.
If it's too much for you to afford, then you should save up your money and wait until you can afford it.

He said as he finished off into a piece of toilet paper as he stared hungrily at a picture of Ron Paul.

Doesn't make sense considering iPod touch price

[edxwelch]

The 32 gb iPod Touch is basically the same device and only costs $300. The iPod lacks a modem, GPS and camera, but that hardly accounts count for the extra $450.

Re:Doesn't make sense considering iPod touch price

[vlm]

The 32 gb iPod Touch is basically the same device and only costs $300. The iPod lacks a modem, GPS and camera, but that hardly accounts count for the extra $450.

My ipod touch has a camera and microphone and all that. I used facetime for about 30 seconds until I got bored with it.

Does the iphone have a GPS inside it, or is it the deal where it triangulates off the cell towers to guess where it is, and to the masses, any electrical device that tells you where it is, is a "GPS" (even ancient LORAN machines are "GPS", etc)

Re:Doesn't make sense considering iPod touch price

[MoonBuggy]

Smartphones do generally have a 'proper' GPS chip which is assisted by cell triangulation for quicker results and (sometimes) increased accuracy. You can get GPS boards for less than $20 at retail, so the chips alone in bulk will not be a significant expense. The iPhone apparently uses an Infineon chip, but I couldn't find specific pricing info.

Re:Doesn't make sense considering iPod touch price

[LoganDzwon]

The screen is different, iPhone4 has a better screen then iPod Touch, the camera ofcourse, and yes it's real GPS. We know the cell bits, (including GPS,) add $130 (see iPad wifi vs 3G) so $320 for the camera and better screen.

Re:Doesn't make sense considering iPod touch price

[Coren22]

I would believe that it has a GPS. You can't do road level navigation off the cell triangulation hack, it isn't that sensitive. The circle that shows when the phone is in triangulation mode is the size of a city block, so it would be utterly useless for real navigation.

The lack of sensitivity has to do with the signal propagation of cell frequencies, they like to bounce around, so the timing isn't very good.

Re:Doesn't make sense considering iPod touch price

[helmy]

I just bought a $100 unlocked android that has all these plus the rest of the physical stuff, so why it should add $130 is a bit confusing.

since i need to carry 3 phones most of the time, work, personal, and travelling country,iphone would be a preposterous choice.

$749 for 32 GB iPhone, $299 for 32 GB iPod Touch

[Anonymous Coward]

Feature differences: (1) Cell phone/data functionality, (2) Better cameras (but they're still only cell phone cameras), (3) GPS, (4) IPS-type LCD screen (same resolution and pixel density as the one on the Touch).

Price difference: $450

Is it just me, or does it seem like a $100 to $200 difference (i.e., $399 to $499 for an unlocked 32 GB iPhone) would make more sense?

Re:And, yet, AT&T won't unlock current locked

[jonbryce]

The only possible difference between the Canadian iPhone and the AT&T iphone is the language and locale settings. In all other respects, every iPhone except the Verizon one is the same hardware all over the world.

Re:What the market will bear.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're kidding right? The "free market" doesn't exist here and hasn't ever existed in telephony. The European markets actually are more free and consumers are better able to vote with their wallet (you know, your magical free market mantra) because the carriers over there can't play the same dirty tricks they can here and phones can be moved onto whatever carrier you like. People are free to buy a contract phone or not. Most carriers disallow even getting on their network without signing a contract, even if you bring your own phone. When all reasonable choices in a market do that that's called collusion, not the free market.

Your libertarian fantasy is not working here and this is one fo the reasons we have the government, to clean up crap for the people when it's not happening of its own accord.

Math

[Anonymous Coward]

If you make 2 year contract for iPhone to get it for 199$ or 299$ neither of the prices is the final price and it is pretty strange that page like slashdot puts prices that are not true and impossible. If smallest contract is 39$ month for 2 years then the lowest price would be 1135$ and not 199$ ... no wonder USA spends more money than it earns ?

Re:What the market will bear.

[Anonymous Coward]

My smartphone is necessary for my job, and my job is necessary for me to have money, and my money is necessary for me to live (even most homeless people I know--yes I know several--live by money, just what they can find through recycling more than anything else along with a little bit of charity etc., and I would say that they are the bottom of the barrel in our society as far as actually living goes).

Sure, I could quit my job and become homeless or take a significantly lower position somewhere else like McDonalds where my smartphone is not necessary, but that's just stupid and unwise. If I want to live wisely, then my smartphone is absolutely necessary to live under my current circumstances.

Now. Get off of my goddamn lawn!

Re:What the market will bear.

[Coren22]

The original problem is that if you buy a subsidized phone, and I don't, but we both sign up for 2 year contracts, our contracts cost the same. So why, if I buy the phone for full price, isn't the contract less expensive then?

Also cheaper than here in Egypt

[arcite]

This is about $100-$150 cheaper than equivalent iphone here in Egypt.

So few providers in the US (8 options in Canada!)

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone know why the iPhone is so un-available in the US? In Canada, a country with a tenth of the population of the US, we can buy the iPhone on any of 8 different providers ( http://www.apple.com/ca/iphone/buy/ ) or unlocked with Apple (and we have been able to for ages).

Why is the US so different? AT&T just got an amazing deal with Apple when they launced the iPhone all those years back?

Why? the iphone isnt fully compatible with others

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would you want to spend more on an unlocked iphone? the Verizon version is cdma only. only other cdma provider is sprint. as far as i know sprint wont activate a phone they didnt provide. the att version of the iphone doesn't support the aws band that tmobile uses for 3/4g so you'll be stuck with 2g service if you try and take it over to tmobile. so in my opinion it would be completely foolish to overpay for a phone that you really still cant use to its full potential on another carrier.

Not really unlocked

[Anonymous Coward]

"Unlocked", in my book, means means use-however-you-want, install-whatever-you-want. Which the iPhone still isn't.

Corp Procurement

[farnsworth]

I am kind of amazed that Apple's U.S. enterprise/corporate customers have put up with locked phones for so long. I remember some previous models were available unlocked (or at least contractless -- I forget the details). But the majority of the iPhone timeline these phones have required a contract and a phone number. I have worked for two different iOS dev shops, and in each case it was either a complete PITA to get devices, or the devs/qa just used their personal devices because there was no other effective way of getting hardware from a corporate procurement point of view. The provisioning has improved over the years, but getting an actual device has been probably the biggest pain in doing corporate iOS work. Hopefully this will make that situation better.

Re:Corp Procurement

[swb]

What would be hard about it? Does AT&T not sell iPhones to corporate customers? It can't be that hard to buy them from a business perspective.

Even if AT&T or Apple had some weird draconian "consumer only" rule, businesses could always just reimburse their employees for the phones plus the service.

The only way this seems to have a business advantage is if you insist on Apple devices and do international travel and want a local number/SIM -- my guess is that at this level of employee, the company eats AT&T roaming charges, buys the device overseas or the employee is compensated for using their personal device overseas.

The only way unlocking makes business sense is when the device is dual-mode/multiband and does high speed data on any carrier, Verizon, Sprint, AT&T or T-Mobile. My guess is that both AT&T and Verizon fear a totally unlocked dual mode/multiband iPhone as it will mean mass defections.

Re:Corp Procurement

[farnsworth]

What would be hard about it?

The use case is this: iPhone 4 comes out, iOS dev team needs to test the app on that device. No team member has an iPhone 4. The only way for the team to acquire an iPhone 4 is to get a 2 year contract with AT&T. It's technically possible to do this, but most IT procurement teams are not set up to do this, so you need exceptions all over the place, it takes forever, etc etc. It's also far more expensive than it should be. It ends up costing $1000s for a ~$600 chunk of hardware.

Again, the locked phone/contract never blocked work getting done, it was just a giant pain to deal with.

Re:Corp Procurement

[swb]

The phones are easy to get, it's the "IT procurement teams" and their short-sighted bureaucracy that makes it complicated.

Re:What the market will bear.

[imric]

So you work in a job that requires you to have a smartphone but doesn't provide it, and if you are self employed you 'absolutely' need one but can't write it off, and it MUST be an iPhone?

I call bullshit.

Re:What the market will bear.

[EastCoastSurfer]

First, this isn't about Apple (they can charge whatever they want for all I care). It's about the cell telcos.

I'm a huge free market person, but the problem here is a classic case where the free market simply doesn't work. The cell telcos require access to a finite public resource to even go into business (and that business is protected by the gov - trying putting up your own cell tower at typical cell freq and see how long it takes for you to be shut down). Part of giving/leasing the telco a public resource means the public can put requirements on them to operate in certain ways.

Re:Google should sue Apple over patent infringemen

[Anonymous Coward]

Selling an unlocked phone was Google's thing. Apple is stealing Google's idea. Really, do you think Apple would've ever done it had Google not done it first?

Because Google was the first to sell unlocked iPhones?

STFU

Re:What the market will bear.

[pnewhook]

So don't buy the phone for full price. That's like complaining there are different prices for a car for lease, vs payments, vs cash purchase. It's up to the manufacturer to set the price how they see fit. If you don't like it buy something else, send a complaint letter, whatever. Don't go whining to the government because you think it is unfair.

Of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course since it is not subsidized they will be lowering my monthly rate, right? .....right?

Re:What the market will bear.

[frosty_tsm]

Actually I agree with AC (and I'm no Rebublican)

There is nothing wrong with the pricing that I can see. Apple can charge what they like. And the cellular providers can charge what they like, clearly they are giving a discount to be tied into a contract.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with this and I see no reason for government interference.

While there might be strong need for government interference, the 2-year-contract slows change in the market. People who sign up for a phone plan today are not on the market (as potential customers) for 2 years. This means that for any given month, maybe ~4% of the market is capable of changing carriers (not counting seasonal variance, pending releases, or people who don't renew). In a contract-free market, one carrier could over-turn the market in months if they came out with either a new feature or better price model. Here, such a shift is next to impossible (why else did AT&T wait 18 months after the iPhone 3G came out before they started network upgrades).

IMOH, there is collusion that needs to be stopped (SMS costs changing overnight at all major carriers isn't an accident) and phones shouldn't be locked to a carrier (effectively cripple-ware). If those changes are made, I think the market could take care of the rest.

But will the White one

[Anonymous Coward]

work?

iPhone > iPT + phone? Please elaborate.

[tepples]

Would you please elaborate as to what makes "the iPhone [] much more than just an iPod touch with a cell phone"?

One minor advantage

[name_already_taken]

Small correction: Same technology, different frequency band.

Since it doesn't support T-Mo's 3G bands, there's not much point to it unless you'll be doing a lot of international travel. If it's only going to be fully functional on AT&T, you may as well go for the contract, since you won't be saving any money on service.

I have an unlocked iPhone 4, on T-Mobile's US service.

Edge is slow, but it's very reliable and doesn't use much power. Sure, I'd like to have 3G speed but I guess I'm not really missing it much since most everything works acceptably on Edge (no Youtube, but again I don't think I'm missing much there). I have had other 3G phones, and and I have a 3G iPad on AT&T, so it's not like I don't know the difference. The lower monthly cost and better customer service from T-Mobile outweighs the speed deficit for me.

The one advantage is that I can use the "Personal Hotspot" tethering feature on the iPhone to share the connection without incurring an additional $20/month charge as I would on AT&T. Phone service is already too expensive (and yes I get the irony that I'm talking about a $650 device).

Re:One minor advantage

[dunng808]

Soooo, you use a $650 SMARTphone like it was a DUMBphone. Which is fine, if that is what you want. Me, I prefer my 3G Android and yes, I enjoy video clips sent along via twitter and FB. I guess that makes me the odd man out in this crowd, but I am not ashamed.

Unlocking was tried by Google and failed due to providers refusing to adjust their plans. My monthly bill pays for a new phone whether or not I get one. No discount. It's the American way.

Re:One minor advantage

[mattack2]

Phone service is already too expensive (and yes I get the irony that I'm talking about a $650 device).

I don't consider that ironic. I'd much rather pay more up front if it will save me money in the long run.

Re:One minor advantage

[DdJ]

Soooo, you use a $650 SMARTphone like it was a DUMBphone.

Actually, not at all. Quite the opposite.

There's a lot of smarts in the phone itself. There's a lot of apps, a lot of storage, a lot of data, a lot of compute power. Most of it doesn't require any connectivity at all to be useful.

If your phone is merely a web browser, merely a thin client for apps that live out on "the cloud", that's less smart-phone-ish than a powerful personal device that can operate standalone.

That may be what you want, and that's fine, but don't confuse that with what a "smart phone" is.

And again, most of the connected stuff works even on slower networks. And when our phones are within range of wifi -- which for some of us is almost always the case -- we have no bandwidth limits.

Maybe that's a better way to think of it -- for people who have nearly constant access to wifi, opting for a very slow (or possibly even no) data plan is a lot like a cell-phone user eliminating their landline. To folks without a cell phone, getting rid of a landline may seem inconceivable. To folks without constant, good wifi, who want to use connected applications, settling for a poor dataplan may seem inconceivable.

Do I think 4G speeds would be nice? Sure, if they didn't cost me anything. Am I willing to pay anything, either financially, in terms of battery life, or in terms of compromised features, for 4G speeds over 2G speeds? No, as it happens I am not.

Re:What the market will bear.

[rickb928]

And in Europe, there are no government-enforced spectrum monopolies, right?

Europe uses limited bands, 900MHz and 1800MHz mostly, and 2100MHz for data, which makes it much easier to roam.

The European cell market is vastly different from the US market, so much so that comparisons are not very helpful. It seems, to me, that the cell industry in Europe is managed as a utility, including singificant regulation and interoperability. In the US, handoffs and network connections are the limit of interoperability, since we have GSM and CDMA networks overlaid. Roaming is also a tragic situatio in the US.

But to further inject the government into this is not just undesireable, it's probably unconstitutional. And it will not fix the GSM/CDMA chasm.

Now comparing the US market to any single national market in the EU makes marginally more sense. Still not bery useful though.

And, yes, AT&T and Verizon do in fact compete. Roughly every two years their customers have the opportunity to switch. My wife just went to AT&T since she can't get an iPhone to run 3G on T-Mobile's network. I'm staying on TMO cause I want an Android phone and AT&T has nothing that interests me enough to pay a little more each month. Yet. Ask me in 18 months or so when they eat TMO and I'm in for a new phone anyways.

And this brings me to my only true peeve about the US market. IF you bring your own phone, do you get a discount on service? Why not? they can't easily make the argument that Bell made for so long, that foreign equipment might disrupt the network, since they accept them, and you can buy the same damned phone elsewhere.

Why not?

Re:And, yet, AT&T won't unlock current locked

[Anonymous Coward]

i have a Rogers (Canadian) iPhone. Afaik The language is the same and is American English instead of Canadian English (auto-corrects honour to honor, doesn't have "eh" in the dictionary, etc.) As far as locale settings go, the weather app defaults to F instead of C so its not customized for Canadians at all.

Re:iPhone iPT + phone? Please elaborate.

[JakeD409]

I think he's referring to the experience of having Internet access almost anywhere you go. For me, the #1 use case of a smart phone is the ability to get walking directions. I am terrible at figuring out where I'm going, and being able to pull out Maps.app without WiFi and get directions is awesome.

The price is ridiculous

[93 Escort Wagon]

I don't make a lot of calls, so I'm on a pay-as-you-go plan. This means - without hacking, anyway - my only smartphone option is an Android phone.

Now I've used iOS in the past (iPod Touch), and now that I've used Android for a while... frankly if I could get a reasonably priced (and supported on prepaid) iPhone I'd drop Android in a minute - but this price is ludicrous. I realize it's not top-end hardware, but my LG Thrive cost me $149.99 - that's with no contract! LG has managed to make a decent touchscreen phone with 3G, wi-fi, and GPS at this price point. Throw in another $60 for a 32GB microSD card, and I am still only out $210.

I really don't understand the price structure here - for this unlocked iPhone in particular, but even for the high-end Android phones. It can't be costing them that much to make the bloody devices.

Re:The price is ridiculous

[H0p313ss]

Your problem is that you have the budget for a Smart car but the desire for a Aston Martin.

Re:The price is ridiculous

[93 Escort Wagon]

Your problem is that you have the budget for a Smart car but the desire for a Aston Martin.

That's not actually an rebuttal, or even an argument.

A 32GB iPod Touch is $299 at the Apple Store. The extra bits that make a smartphone can be added for under $150. That doesn't add up to anywhere near $649.

Re:The price is ridiculous

[H0p313ss]

That's not actually an rebuttal, or even an argument.

Good, I was merely making an observation.

Re:The price is ridiculous

[mjwx]

I really don't understand the price structure here - for this unlocked iPhone in particular, but even for the high-end Android phones. It can't be costing them that much to make the bloody devices.

I bought the HTC Desire Z for A$550 (US$600) delivered 4 months after release, why is the Iphone still US$650 (A$999 for some strange reason)?

Occams razor suggests because Apple are making a crap-load of profit and don't want to lower prices.

Nothing new...

[TemporalBeing]

Nothing new here. You've been able to buy it directly from Apple at full price all along, and actually those prices are a little cheaper then when I did the comparison about 1.5 years ago when I bought my Nexus One - then the 32GB version was a whopping $799. Apple still makes you get a contract though - probably part of their data plan agreements, one of the reasons I didn't go for it (not to mention that aside from the SDD drive size, dual camera, and a few mm in dimensions, even the Nexus One is superior).

Re:Nothing new...

[jsdcnet]

It is new. There are two concepts here that you are confusing: off-contract and unlocked. You have always been able to buy an off-contract phone (for $599 or $699), but it would only work on AT&T (ignoring jailbreaks). As of today you can now buy an off-contract, unlocked phone direct from Apple, for $650 or $750.

Re:Nothing new...

[mrbrown1602]

Wrong.

There's a difference between buying a phone off contract, which is what Apple (U.S.) previously offered and buying an unlocked phone off contract. One allows you to get your own service through AT&T without a commitment. The other allows you to get service through ANY GSM carrier without a contract.

Re:Google should sue Apple over patent infringemen

[Coren22]

Yeah, but the rest of the world has sane patent law. In the US what he said wouldn't surprise me. I say everyone should sue for patent infringement as much as possible to show how very broken the system is.

How about unsubsidized phones?

[ceswiedler]

I don't care that much about having an unlocked phone. I mostly want an unsubsidized phone. I'd like to buy a phone without the subsidy and then get a lower rate as a result, so that if I continue to use the phone after two years, I'm not continuing to pay the subsidy. The way it's set up now, you're wasting money with every monthly bill if you don't go buy a new phone as soon as you're able to.

Being in NZ

[CliffH]

I know where I'll be buying my next iPhone. Over here the pricing is as follows:

16GB = $949 NZD 32GB = $1129 NZD

Direct conversion USD -> NZD

16GB = $793 NZD 32GB = $915 NZD

Re:Being in NZ

[tacarat]

I was going to rant and rave about people complaining about their phone costs, but your post has inspired me. Thank you. I have family going out of the country pretty soon :)

Re:What the market will bear.

[david_thornley]

For many self-employed people some sort of cell phone is necessary. It wasn't true some time ago, but nowadays you often need to be able to answer the phone no matter where you are. It doesn't have to be an iPhone, but it does have to be signed up with a cell phone carrier.

This means that, as a practical necessity, many people need to sign a contract with one of a very few providers who use chunks of the electromagnetic spectrum allocated by the Federal government, in a clearly applicable use of the Interstate Commerce clause. Unregulating the EM spectrum would basically destroy its usefulness.

This means that the free market doesn't work. It's not possible to get a chunk of the EM spectrum allocated to you just because you want to move in on the big boys' territory, and a duopoly isn't that much better than a monopoly. (Consider US autos of the 1970s and later - Detroit basically fiddled with the chrome while non-US auto manufacturers prepared to clean their clocks.)

Ergo, since the market doesn't work in the status quo, and deregulation to increase competition (like that ever happens) is impossible, we need government regulation. Same as the electrical distribution system.

Iphone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Luxury commodity? The apple iphone is a status symbol, not more a mobile phone.

Re:What the market will bear.

[thetoadwarrior]

Yeah because that's worked out so well for the mobile phone consumers in the US.

Re:And, yet, AT&T won't unlock current locked

[abhi_beckert]

Um... did you read the title? This story is announcing unlocked iPhone sales direct from Apple in the US.

Re:Google should sue Apple over patent infringemen

[ideaz]

To this "Selling an unlocked phone was Google's thing",

I have:

"Selling a phone was Apple's thing"
"Selling apps on app store was Apple's thing"
maybe even this "Selling notebooks was Apple's thing"

Re:iPhone iPT + phone? Please elaborate.

[node 3]

The screen, the case, the camera quality, the speaker quality, the battery... If you remove strictly just those things that add cellular connectivity to the iPhone, you'll still be left with something better than an iPod touch.

Re:What the market will bear.

[imric]

No.

"For many self-employed people some sort of cell phone is necessary. It wasn't true some time ago, but nowadays you often need to be able to answer the phone no matter where you are. It doesn't have to be an iPhone, but it does have to be signed up with a cell phone carrier. "

Yes, perhaps - but if necessary, it can be written off. And you don't need to get a cell phone with a contract, and it doesn't have to be an iPhone, so I don't think that line of reasoning applies.

"This means that, as a practical necessity, many people need to sign a contract"

No. Contract-free phones are available and cheap. This thread was about unlocked phones having little effect on what is paid for access, while increasing what is paid for the phone. Even further, I do believe there are contract-free Android smartphones.

"This means that the free market doesn't work"

What most free marketeers call a 'free market' is more like an unfettered market. They take an extremist's view. That is NOT my view, however. From what I have seen, the free market works best when there are limits and regulations. Let businesses duke it out, sure - but keep them in the ring. Keep them from using knives and guns or other items that may harm the audience. Keep the audience from doing the same and harming the competition.

The free market works. Unfettered markets don't.

For an unfettered market to work,all things must be luxuries (consumers must be free not to buy), all transactions must be perfectly reversible (poisoning the water the land or air for a quick buck - or killing workers - must be 'fixable' for the same price or less as the profit made), and all markets must be infinite (labor must always be free to go get another job, for example). Having no regulation means that businesses in the course of maximizing profit will minimize competition. And when competition is marginalized or eliminated, there will be no motivation to improve or keep a lid on price, ultimately leading to economic disaster.

No Data plan possible?

[__aazsst3756]

Is there a way to buy this, and use on a cheap prepaid cell network without paying the data plan? I'm good with data only working in wifi mode. I'm just too cheap to pay today's data rates, don't feel the benefit warrants that kind of cash (for me at least), but would love to have the iPod and Apps. Basically replace my iPod touch and dumb phone combination with one device.

Not to belittle the american duopoly dilemma...

[inAbsurdum]

...but damn, tech stuff is cheap in the US compared to here in Europe. The 32GB model sells at the very least for $1107 here in Sweden .

choice

[clickclickdrone]

I was going to get an iPhone until I started really looking at the prices. Ended up with an HTC Desire. Brilliant phone, does all I want and more. Phone was free on a 2 year £18 a month deal. Sweet. Makes $700 on a phone look frankly unhinged.

Re:choice

[mr100percent]

You're making a false comparison. Free HTC desire vs as-low-as-$50 iPhone would be the proper comparison since you're comparing subsidized phones.

Re:What the market will bear.

[AK Marc]

The govt should stay the fuck out of the free market

A "free market" is inherently unstable and requires government intervention to enforce it. Perhaps you need to go take economics 101 before you talk about things you don't understand.

Not to mention that the phone carriers are renting space from the public and agree to terms that would let the government apply such rules. Or are you saying that the government shouldn't rent out public assets in the manner that best suits the public?

Re:What the market will bear.

[AK Marc]

So don't buy the phone for full price.

The choice isn't there. You can't buy the phone at a reduced plan price from anyone but AT&T.

Don't go whining to the government because you think it is unfair.

It's illegal in the US to abuse your monopoly status. The phone carriers are, by definition a monopoly (even if the particulars of their monopoly is limited), and they gained their monopoly status from the government selling it to them. It seems reasonable that a condition of sale of public access be such that improves the state of the public.

Re:What the market will bear.

[AK Marc]

Contract-free phones are available and cheap. This thread was about unlocked phones having little effect on what is paid for access, while increasing what is paid for the phone. Even further, I do believe there are contract-free Android smartphones.

And, when you are done getting that phone, you will be paying for the contract discount for others because there is no discount for providing your own phone.

For that reason, every 2 years, I'd get a new phone. I would then keep that phone until the next renewal. When I had one working phone and one backup, the others would go to the womans shelter. They are charging me for the phone anyway, so I'll make them give me one. Even if I bought my own unlocked iPhone to run on their network, I'd still get their free phone because I want something from them for the extra cost they refuse to discount me.

It's silly, and it's stupid, but that's the way phones work in the US. There is no monthly option that charges you less when you bring your own phone or are on a monthly payment plan (not counting pre-pay and ignoring the only major carrier, t-mobile, that gives a $10 discount for having your own phone).

These are a bargain!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in Argentina, and here an iPhone with a two year contract costs around U$S 900. These at 650 are a bargain, next time I go to the US I'm definitely getting one.

Re:I have one, eh? x2

[Anonymous Coward]

You can try 7-11 SpeakOut. $10/mo unlimited browsing on a pay as you go plan on 3G, using the Rogers network.
http://www.speakout7eleven.ca/ (official site)
http://www.speakoutwireless.ca/ (unofficial fansite)

It still includes free caller ID and voicemail (but not visual voicemail) so it's probably not the OP's plan.

One important item - Choice of providers

[Lieutenant_Dan]

I had a 3G iphone with Rogers in Canada. Contract term was up and the phone is mine. Can i just plop a VirginMobile SIM and change providers? Nope. Rogers will charge $50 for unlocking *MY* iphone.

Had to jailbreak it and unlock it with ultrasnow. am on prepaid plan for a lot less than what rogers offered. Don't need the latest and greatest phone model. Comes in handy when i go to the us and use a prepaid plan down there.

If i ever buy another phone i will only by unlocked.

Even More Plus

[tepples]

The secret password to get the SIM-only plan from a T-Mobile sales rep is "Even More Plus". It's no longer offered online, but it's still offered in stores.

Re:Google should sue Apple over patent infringemen

[Omnifarious]

Oh, no, the app store thing isn't relevant. Because Google calls it a Marketplace. That makes it totally different.

Re:iPhone iPT + phone? Please elaborate.

[AK Marc]

Aren't the screen and the speakers the same between the iPod touch and the iPhone?

Import it from Europe

[loufoque]

Funnily enough, despite the prices of Apple products being higher in euros than they are in dollars (even though the dollar is barely 0.7 euro), it will be cheaper to import an unlocked one from Europe.

Because, believe it or not, but in most European countries, tie-in sale is forbidden by law (though an exclusivity period of up to six months is allowed).

Re:Import it from Europe

[masol]

Funnily enough, despite the prices of Apple products being higher in euros than they are in dollars (even though the dollar is barely 0.7 euro), it will be cheaper to import an unlocked one from Europe.

Because, believe it or not, but in most European countries, tie-in sale is forbidden by law (though an exclusivity period of up to six months is allowed).

Also unlocked iphones you can buy in Kazakhstan. www.apples.kz Almost the same price like in Europe

That is a GSM-only phone

[damn_registrars]

So Verizon users still need to buy it from Verizon instead.

Of course, Verizon users are used to that...

Re:Google should sue Apple over patent infringemen

[ideaz]

I'm not talking about the terminology here but the concept of having a marketplace to sell apps. That said, again am not very sure if that was an 'apple concept' but it was definitely noted by Google.

I myself am not against such kind of copying by these firms (as long as the patents aren't infringed) 'cause they tend to be more competitive, making the consumer have more choices to choose from.

Let gmhowell tell you all about himself

[Anonymous Coward]

This quote from you says it all about you though, scumbag:

"I do whatever amuses me at the moment. Sometimes that is trolling. As far as AC? I only do that to avoid undoing moderations." - by gmhowell (26755) on Wednesday April 20, @12:49AM (#35877174) Homepage

Your own words prove to us that you're online trash gmhowell, you scumbag troll.

This IS why nobody here takes you seriously, or pays you any heed: You're a troll!

The above not enough? Well, here's more from you:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1907528&cid=34543612

And here also:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2087330&cid=35846218

(There's NO DENYING you are a troll, especially when you admitted it there in the links above, literally, in your own words!)

Re:What the market will bear.

[imric]

"And, when you are done getting that phone, you will be paying for the contract discount for others because there is no discount for providing your own phone."

*shrug* So? The non-contract plans are still cheap and available with varied terms and prices and usable with advanced phones. There are even plans for seniors and those on fixed incomes that provide 911 service and a small amount of minutes for free (carriers are required to subsidize) What more should the government do? I just don't think this is any reason for 'action'.

Re:What the market will bear.

[AK Marc]

There are even plans for seniors and those on fixed incomes that provide 911 service and a small amount of minutes for free (carriers are required to subsidize) What more should the government do?

A phone with no plan is required by law to still call 911. And I'm unclear. Apparently you are the only person I've ever met who thinks the government is doing exactly the right amount of regulation. You think there should be no more and no less than there is today?

Re:What the market will bear.

[t2t10]

The govt should stay the fuck out of the free market

The cell phone market in the US is not a "free market" at all.

Apple should price their stuff at whatever the market will bear to maximize their profit.

That's monopoly pricing in this case, not free market pricing.

Cell phone service in Europe is much closer to a free market: any phone works on any carrier and you are usually not locked into contracts anymore. As a result, voice and data cost a fraction of what they cost in the US, and phones are cheaper too.

Re:What the market will bear.

[mattack2]

And, when you are done getting that phone, you will be paying for the contract discount for others because there is no discount for providing your own phone.

There is a discount, since you can use non-contract prepaid phones, as was stated.

What a deal!

[crhylove]

$600 and you STILL don't have an android! LOL

Or Hong Kong

[dbIII]

In my city there's a shop that is basicly a drop box and service centre for phones sent by airmail out of Hong Kong which have never been anywhere near a carrier so have never been locked. There is probably one near you. That's how I got my Nokia N900 a few months before the carriers here eventually decided to bring it in yet also more than a year after it had been launched.
Telephone companies make used car salesmen look like saints.

Try the West Island

[dbIII]

There are plenty of places in Oz that get unlocked phones direct from Hong Kong. There's probably a place or two in NZ where some Chinese ex-pats are doing the same thing.

Re:What the market will bear.

[AK Marc]

Not for regular monthly accounts, as was stated.

Still locked in to Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Well and good, you're now carrier independent. You still can't connect your iPhone to any sort of computer without installing iTunes. You can't install any apps on your phone unless you buy them from Apple (or jailbreak your phone). And apparently you can't even talk about your phone without becoming a fucking Jobs dicksucker.

Re:Still locked in to Apple

[luther349]

for that kind of money i can buy mutch better things i need like a new tower hell a new gameing tower. any androide device unlocked possably 2 of them. or a badass tablet like a zoom. 600$ for a iphone is beyond stupid when it comes to cost being at 299 there where rakeing in the cash. just funny there saying your not getting a discount you never got in the first dammed place they where never sold at loss or even at cost.

And Apple doesn't rip off non-US customers?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Steve,

Can you please explain why an unlocked 16GB iP4 retails for $649 in the US yet the IDENTICAL unlocked phone retails for US$918 (AUD$849) in Australia?

Kind regards,

Ass-fucked Australian.

Re:And Apple doesn't rip off non-US customers?

[luther349]

649 is a ripoff. apple rips off everyone. sad part is people line up waveing there house payment for a phone with a smile. and the goverment wonders why are ecnomy is in the shitter and keeping going depper into the shit.

Re:What the market will bear.

[pnewhook]

The choice isn't there. You can't buy the phone at a reduced plan price from anyone but AT&T.

Its there or it isn't. If AT&T offers it then its there. If they are offering something other carriers do not then good for them, and why not get it from them?

It's illegal in the US to abuse your monopoly status. The phone carriers are, by definition a monopoly

How can multiple companies be a monopoly? Where I am I have the choice of three national carriers, then maybe a handful of smaller ones. How is this a monopoly?

Re:What the market will bear.

[AK Marc]

"Would you like one or not" is a choice, but it is not choice in the obvious context at hand of being able to get that choice from anywhere else.

How can multiple companies be a monopoly?

Through collusion, they operate as an oligopoly, and they do have specific monopolies over specific public resources (none of the others get to use AT&T's frequencies or vice versa).

Re:What the market will bear.

[pnewhook]

"Would you like one or not" is a choice, but it is not choice in the obvious context at hand of being able to get that choice from anywhere else.

So because I can only get a Ford Explorer from Ford, Ford is then considered a monopoly?

Through collusion, they operate as an oligopoly, and they do have specific monopolies over specific public resources (none of the others get to use AT&T's frequencies or vice versa).

Collusion is illegal, but I doubt you'd be able to make it stick. If you think they are colluding, why not contact a lawyer and sue them? As for the public resources thing, these frequencies are licensed. Doling out frequencies to manage the airwaves is not a molopoly.

Re:And, yet, AT&T won't unlock current locked

[vaporland]

Apple has nothing to lose with a carrier asking them to unlock an iPhone.

not true. if you switch carriers and can't take your phone because it's locked, your new carrier (in the US, in a theoretical place where more than one GSM carrier offers the iPhone) will sell you a new iPhone and subsidize the cost, paying the subsidy to Apple.

1. sell iPhone through carrier 'a'
2. annoy customer into switching carriers
3. sell another iPhone through carrier 'b'
4. Apple Profit!

Re:What the market will bear.

[mysidia]

Through collusion, they operate as an oligopoly, and they do have specific monopolies over specific

They cannot legally collude to fix prices, violation of the Antitrust act, and the feds would be all over them.

Re:What the market will bear.

[evilviper]

And even if a smartphone is necessary to live (ha!), Boost mobile (for example) has non-contract Android service, IIRC.

Problem with that logic is that, if this was a free market, there would be no Boost or Virgin. Both are Sprint, and Sprint reps testified in front of congress that, if AT&T is allowed to buy T-mobile, Sprint will be next. Then you'll have a true duopoly, and prepaid cell service might go away all together...

Re:What the market will bear.

[AK Marc]

So because I can only get a Ford Explorer from Ford, Ford is then considered a monopoly?

They are accorded a monopoly based on trademarks, copyright, and patents. So yes, Ford has a monopoly on Ford Explorers.

Collusion is illegal, but I doubt you'd be able to make it stick.

Yes, the colluding companies have gotten much better at making it legal, even with the effect being no different than the overt collusion that was the catalyst for the laws in question. But that doesn't make it any less collusion.

Re:What the market will bear.

[AK Marc]

They cannot legally collude to fix prices,

That is correct, but that doesn't stop them.

I can never understand the fuss about locking

[Anonymous Coward]

I can never understand the fuss about locking phones to carriers. Here in Hong Kong, every phone you can buy is unlocked. And if you want the carrier's subsidy on a phone, you sign a contract with the carrier and promise to use them for, say, 12 months. If you cancel the subscription before the the term, you need to pay a penalty fee which presumably makes up for the subsidy. What is the problem with this system?

Re:I can never understand the fuss about locking

[luther349]

they do that hear as well they like to screw you twice. you get a pently then a useless brick for a phone being its locked. they do this to sell phones relly being most people dont go threw the pain to hack and unlock there phone to use on another carrer they just buy a new phone.

ripoff

[luther349]

its fact at the 199/299 price point apple made a killing off the hardware aka charging full price there was never any discounts. this is just straght up rapeing custmers that are not smart enough to jailbrake/unlock used phones. relly at this point i say go for webos those devices are unlocked from the factory they just need to get better hardware but there tabelit looks insanly cool.

Re:What the market will bear.

[makomk]

They cannot legally collude to fix prices, violation of the Antitrust act, and the feds would be all over them.

They can't legally collude. What they can legally do is watch for one of their competitors to increase prices or reduce what you get for your money, then all independently copy that move. Guess what they do?

Re:What the market will bear.

[sco08y]

This is a common argument (especially from republicans)

If only. Republicans != fiscal conservatives; you won't get Gov. Huckabee making this argument.

The reason they don't have to compete is because they don't share phone technology. EDGE, HSPA, EV-DO, LTE, etc. Users of one network can't take their business elsewhere.

Huh? I've only once stayed with a carrier after my contract expired. The fact that the phone costs virtually nothing, which you want to make illegal, means that I have nothing forcing me to stay with a carrier.

* Actually a duo-opoly, with ATT and Verizon sharing the exclusive access.

Yeah, there's always that footnote whenever people claim the government *has* to step in because of monopoly.

The legitimate reason for regulation is when there are natural barriers to entry to the marketplace.

There is then some hand-waving where the original argument goes away and is replaced with, well, we have to regulate when there's a monopoly.

And then there is some more hand-waving and the claim becomes, well, okay, *techincally* there are a dozen competitors, but only X and Y have significant market share so they're a "duopoly."

But go back to the original claim: barriers to entry. There are dozens of carriers competing in the US, they may not be competing in the retail market, but they are competing. Whatever barriers to entry there are, they have cleared them and they could provide retail service just fine. I can call absolutely any carrier in the US from any other carrier's phone, that's a fact. I can email or text any smartphone from any other smartphone in the US, that's also a fact.

So claims that we need regulation based on the supposed monopoly are bunk.

Contract is too expensive

[dilvish_the_damned]

Its the contract thats too expensive, the phone price is appropriate.

Re:What the market will bear.

[imric]

I'm saying further government intervention in the market is unjustified. I do NOT think that knee-jerk 'deregulate' reactions are justified by this either.

Re:And, yet, AT&T won't unlock current locked

[Anonymous Coward]

AT&T does not unlock all phones. I was astounded that AT&T refused to unlock my Blackberry Bold 9000 after I finished my two-year contract with them.

Re:What the market will bear.

[macs4all]

The choice isn't there. You can't buy the phone at a reduced plan price from anyone but AT&T.

I thought that the Verizon iPhone was subsidized, too...

Or, are you only considering the GSM iPhone?

Re:iPhone iPT + phone? Please elaborate.

[node 3]

No.

Re:iPhone iPT + phone? Please elaborate.

[AK Marc]

The tech specs on the screen and speakers listed on Apple's web site indicate identical performance. Unless you can point me to something that explains otherwise, I'd trust Apple over some anonymous Internet guy.

Re:What the market will bear.

[pnewhook]

They are accorded a monopoly based on trademarks, copyright, and patents. So yes, Ford has a monopoly on Ford Explorers.

so with that logic, basically every product on the market is a monopoly. I dont think you know what a monopoly or competition is.

Re:What the market will bear.

[AK Marc]

You are the type to complain that a company with the monopoly on milk on the market doesn't have a monopoly even if they have a true monopoly because you could always buy your own cow or fly to Mexico to drink milk. As such, getting into a hairsplitting discussion on whether a real 100% monopoly was or wasn't one would be a waste of time.

When AT&T had a monopoly on iPhones (you could get them from AT&T and nowhere else) would you say they had a monopoly on iPhones? Or would you say that they didn't have a monopoly on iPhones because other smartphones are sufficiently similar to be a replacement? From your comments so far, it seems you would argue there is a replacement product. A milk monopoly wouldn't be a monopoly because you could always buy soy milk, and they are close enough for you, so they should be close enough for everyone...

Why is this even legal in the US of A?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, why?