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Chinese Legislature Conducts Large Online Vote
hackingbear writes "In a bid to reform the tax law and raise person tax exemption to 3000 Yuan per month (or about US$5000 per year,) from 2000 Yuan per month, the Chinese legislature has conducted a massive online vote on the pending legislation. The [National People's Congress] Standing Committee, China's top legislature, on Wednesday publicized suggestions and opinions on amending the Law on Individual Income Tax that were submitted online from April 25 to May 31. Among all 82,707 citizens who commented on the proposal, [only] 15 percent of them favored raising the exemption to 3,000 yuan. However, 48 percent suggested to further raise the exemption to 5,000 yuan per month. While the online votes are not binding, the outcome likely shape the final bill. We'd hope the US Congress would dare to collect real citizen input on its legislation, rather than just doing lip service or useless political arguments."
Actually making use of technology to drive government.
I believe the only way a true democracy can be run is if individual citizens are allowed to vote on legislation proposed by their representatives, rather than having the representatives do the voting. It would encourage the reps to actually engage their voting populations, otherwise their legislation dies.
Power to the people!
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
China has just locked up a large number of dissidents, including Zhao Lianhai, who ran a website about the poisoned baby-milk scandal after his own son became ill.
A few months back, they put a girl in a labor camp for posting a sarcastic comment on twitter.
A good portion of the stories on slashdot would probably get you a jail sentence if you posted them in China.
I may not get 'online voting', then again maybe online voting is just a way to track who the troublemakers are - like Mao's Hundred Flowers campaign.
But how do you ensure that each persons gets one vote and nobody can steal your vote? And how do you check that the results weren't tainted or pre-determined like Honduras almost had? And then there's the issue of privacy. Lots of people don't want any kind of national ID card.
I definitely want to choose our leaders using online polls. I mean what could go wrong?
Vote early vote often...
For in politics, as in religion, it is equally absurd to aim at making proselytes by fire and sword. - Publius
Are you fucking serious? Damn neoconservative nutjobs.
I think it's reasonable to assume there is at least that many citizens in China who could vote on this. Don't quote me on this, but I heard there's a lot of people in China.
Yeah, that just happened.
Unfortunately, we couldn't trust our government to post the real results, much less make the voting process secure enough to avoid virtual ballot-stuffing. Not that it'd matter, since our representatives seem pretty content to vote completely opposite any form of public opinion...
We'd hope the US Congress would dare to collect real citizen input on its legislation, rather than just doing lip service or useless political arguments.
Really, this is just a poll, and an extremely poor one at that. It is non-binding, and it excludes huge segments of the population (rural voters who don't have internet, or those who don't self-select to vote in online polls).
In the US, politicians do listen to polls. It used to be that politicians followed the polls so much that 'poll chaser' was a typical insult of a politician. In the US, politicians follow polls, and the ones who go too far against the public will get voted out (when they public isn't watching, they can do whatever they want).
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
3000 Yuan is close to $500 USD, not $5000.
real citizen input on its legislation"
It's called representative government, and the Chinese citizens would love to have it.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - Kay, Men In Black
Direct democracy can be a terrifying thing to behold. Just as the unregulated free market works great until people discover how to exploit negative externalities, direct democracy works great until people discover that they can vote themselves all kinds of short-term benefits and leave the long-term costs to the next generation.
The idea behind representative democracy is that the people can make their will known to their representatives, but it's the representatives who will consider all aspects of the issue and balance short-term and long-term considerations so that they choose the best possible alternative. That's the theory, anyway. Unfortunately the system is only as good as the quality of the representatives, and in an age where our representatives seem to be chosen more for their entertainment value than their intelligence and statesmanship it's not much better than direct democracy. Sometimes it's even worse.
My theory is Democracy works well, but you need an educated voter, so make a site that educates voters instead of just makes them angry.
On the website do the following:
Allow people the ability to write petitions to the senators.
Allow people to upvote/downvote comments factionally. This means a republican won't be drowned out by a democratic hivemind for example.
Allow people to see their elected official's voting record vs his campaign promises.
Allow people to see the campaign promises and views of the candidates
Verify people online to be registered voters IRL(Biggie)
If you could do even just a subset of the above things, you could force hyperdemocracy upon Washington DC whether it wants it to happen or not. The people who will not listen to your website might get voted out if you have a large enough user base.
God spoke to me
Direct democracy has it's drawbacks as people here have already stated (California). But what if we went back to the original representation ratio of people in congress as prescribed in the Constitution to "The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand", that would require something like 10,000 representatives. That would be enough people to keep most individuals out of the limelight, so maybe they would actually try to do work rather than pander to their constituents.
Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds.There upon the rainbow is the answer to a neverending story
Let the citizens vote for our policies that are obviously popular, while we decide we find new ways to censor the Internet behind closed doors. Democracy in action.
Submitter claims a non-binding poll constituted a vote, while also implying that no such thing happens in the US
Conducting a poll is in no way equal to holding a vote, and if anything US politicians are far too caught up in polling numbers.
Two points in the summary -- both falsehoods.
The only things we can learned from this story is:
1. hackingbear is now a confirmed troll
2. timothy needs to be made aware that if he intends to promote troll submissions, he better be prepared to explain to his employers the future decline in Slashdot viewership.
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
As it is, the actual government of China is free to ignore what this almost pointless organ of state decides at any time it desires. The actual rulers of China are not bound by the rules of law.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
The big difference between this and a normal poll is that it is one "official" poll that everyone can be directed to. I would love to see that sort of thing in the U.S. so it isn't as necessary to question the source and methodology of the poll results. If it were done right we could even tie the representative's voting record to the poll results and make it easy for people to identify whether a candidate is really representing their citizens, though that has a lot of potential for abuse.
Actually making use of technology to drive government.
This seems to be a survey, not a vote. So it is pretty much what occasionally happens in the US too. Suveys and focus groups are used to get feedback and to craft legislation and/or how the legislation is presented.
I believe the only way a true democracy can be run is if individual citizens are allowed to vote on legislation proposed by their representatives, rather than having the representatives do the voting. It would encourage the reps to actually engage their voting populations, otherwise their legislation dies.
Many wise men have characterized such a system as mob rule. Legislators would simply pander to the mob, its not terribly different than what happens today. Why are the NRA and AARP so powerful, its not money, its their ability to deliver voters to the polls. In short big money donors may have less influence but special interest groups will gain influence.
The real solution is to elect representatives that have intelligence, ethics and character. An extreme example from history, Cincinnatus:
"... an invasion caused him to be called to serve Rome as dictator, an office which he immediately resigned after completing his task of defeating the rivaling tribes of the Aequians, Sabines and Volscians. His abandoning of his work to serve Rome, and especially his immediate resignation of his absolute authority with the end of the crisis, has often been cited as an example of outstanding leadership, service to the greater good, civic virtue, and modesty"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnatus
California has destroyed my faith in direct democracy.
California has accomplished more than that, it has also destroyed the faith in representative democracy as well. The silliness of the public is exceeded by the stupidity of the state legislature.
We already have freely elected governments in the west and don't need stunts like this for legitimacy. If we disapprove of our politicians we replace them the next elections. If I were a Chinese party official I'd be very concerned over this: what if people get a taste for democracy and start demanding more of it?
True democracy has never existed and never will. The ancient greeks has no true democracy and the modern greeks are showing why.
Greece is bankrupt, the country has since WW2 spend its life on a money drip from the EU and totally mis-managed its own economy. There is virtually no tax collection and corruption is a way of live. Now they find out that if you collect no taxes and spend a fortune as the state on pork projects there will be an imbalance.
The country needs 100.000.000.000 euro in a loan, after they already got one. This from greece which has nothing anybody wants except a tiny island the Turks want. They can never pay the loan off even if the greeks suddenly started paying taxes, stopped the excessive spending and actually started working for a living.
So what are all the greek protesting about? About having to pay taxes, cuts in spending and actually having to start working... because going bankrupt as a nation will make things so much better. The greeks know they got no alternatives left and still they protest.
Democracy, true democracy requires that each voter not only knows about the issue but votes for future, not the now AND not just for his own benefit.
Take this chinese proposal. gosh, the people voted to be able to earn more before having to start paying taxes... good, did they also at the same time vote to have their favorite government spending cut? To have to road in front of their own house to be no longer repaired? For police and other emergency services no longer to service their neighbourhood?
I do not think so. Cut taxes, no cut in spending (and most likely an increase in spending).
The Iceland banking scandal? All those EU people who wished the promised high return on banking there and wanted the freedom to bank anywhere in world and not have the state look into their account? Gosh, when it all went belly up, they sure wanted the state to refund the money they didn't pay taxes from tax money didn't they?
How many american industries always bitching about taxes said no to a tax handout? Wallstreet sure didn't mind going on benefits when it was them doing the benefits? But a family living on the street? No money for them.
We like to think that we humans are a social creature. We are. So are zebra's and a zebra who sees an other zebra stumble and be torn apart by lions thinks only "glad it was not me" and will happily vote for some other zebra to be devoured tomorrow, as long as it isn't him.
True democracy would require a better class of human beings then we are (and yes, that includes me).
The real issue is that representative democracy ALSO requires a better class of human beings then we got.
What type of system we can run with the human beings we got? I am afraid from history, that it ain't much. See the holocausts that just keep on happening. See the vote in California against gay marriage. A vote that cost nobody any money, didn't require any taxes and yet was voted against just because a lot of people don't want some other people to have the same rights.
All you can hope for with the human race is that someone else stumbles before you do when it is feeding time.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
We'd hope the US Congress would dare to collect real citizen input on its legislation
Yeah, its called voting your leaders into power.
We'd hope the Chinese Politburo would dare collect REAL citizen input.
The internet isn't as present in China as it would be here. We're still talking about a tool for the rich and intellectuals. And that THEY want higher exemption was to be expected. I somehow don't think the Chinese government would allow any input that they can't rely on to be what they planned it to be.
Direct democracy can also be a quite fickle thing, since people tend to be short sighted, uninformed or (worse) misinformed and egoistical. Not that politicians weren't, but it gets way worse when you put laws in the hands of people who then get bombarded by ads from various special interest groups (or, in China, just one), scaremongering the general (and generally dumb and gullible) population into believing the sky is falling if they don't vote "right". For reference, see elections.
Then there's also the egoistical streak in every one of us. People will hardly agree that taxes are to be raised but they'd gladly vote for spending. Now how's that supposed to work out? If you want government to spend money on something, government first of all has to have money to spend. No income, no money, no spending. It's simple as that. But nobody wants to pay for it! Everyone wants good schools for their kids, well kept roads, enough police to keep everyone safe and a fire department that arrives a minute after the call to a greasefire, preferably with at least ten firetrucks. But tax me for that? Nooooo way, Jose! Tax my neighbor!
Direct democracy works in a world of honest, sensible, socially inclined people. But if you have that, you can as well stick to representative democracy, because your politicians would be honest, sensible and socially responsible too. I mean, where do you expect them to come from but the population, these people don't come from out of this world. Even if their ideas sometimes sound a bit like they never spent a minute living here...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
*Head asplodes at built-in contradiction*
Yes, we're fucked, but the Founders knew we were going to be fucked no matter what they set up, and merely tried to set things up in such a way that it minimizes the amount of stupid that goes around.
"D'oh!" :-)
Thanks NC. I've went from a high-IQ, confident, educated and considered intelligent person...to a bumbling moronic idiot in 30 seconds, just from reading your comment!
No, I'm not hostile towards you, and rather thankful instead.
Let me explain further.
Until now, I have been effectively brain-washed in the belief that our 'Founding Fathers' were close to omnipotent in their foresight in forming our gov't., and the current problems were caused by 'professional politicians' feathering their respective nests.
Really, sad to say.
Even though I have perused the Federalist Papers, I can't claim to have read them all thoroughly. (need to do that ASAP)
While reading bits of them, I now realise the filtering that was going on mentally by me.
That last sentence of your comment was like a slap in the face with a frozen mackerel. Damn.
Thanks a bunch. It was an important eye/mind opener for me about politics and more importantly, political systems, and the way I think about them.
Right now, that 'little voice in my head' is shaking it's finger at me and saying, "Lucy, you got some explaining to do!", while simultaneously, Ralph is shaking his fist at me, shouting "To the moon, Alice, to the moon!".
I think I've some rethinking to do....
BTW, please pardon the ambiguous tone...I really am rocked hard by this revelation, no sarcasm, no hostility intended. /. is my witness[at least those that haven't filtered my sorry ass out], I humbly thank you, and credit you for instigating a profound event in my life. :-)
As
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
We'd hope the Chinese government would dare allow citizens to speak their minds, protest, and vote freely without fear of being sent to a labor camp, tortured, or held indefinitely as a political dissident.
This sounds more like opinion polling anyway, and yes there is polling in the US. It is just as binding (aka not at all). The biggest difference seems to be the scale.
The final nail in the coffin is the phrase "doing lip service or useless political arguments". Democracy is chaotic, and those arguments - whether one finds them useful is itself political - are at the center of being a truly democratic state.
I'm not saying the US is perfect, it is deeply, deeply flawed (look at the role of money in elections just as a start), but we don't jail members of the opposition parties as a matter of policy, censor the internet for purely political content, or crack down violently on peaceful religious organizations.
China's Communism beats the hell out of American Democracy. The difference between Communism and Democracy? The spelling.
Having worked there for a while, as well as other foreign countries I've come to the conclusion that freedom and democracy span about 6 feet. Or about as far as you can stretch your arms. If you believe America has so much freedom try raising chickens in your suburban yard.
Hope is the currency of fools
China has managed to locate 82,707 dissidents trying to overturn their government.
Direct Democracy sounds rational when people are altruists and will vote as per their conscience.