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Chinese City Wants To Build a Censorship-Free Hub
itwbennett writes "The city of Chongqing's proposed Cloud Computing Special Zone would be home to 'a handful of state-of-the-art data centers and is designed to attract investment from multinational companies and boost China's status as a center for cloud computing,' writes the IDG News Service's Michael Kan. The part that's drawing the ire of Chinese Internet users: This censorship-free hub would only be for foreign companies."
... unless you have secrets we really, really want.
"I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
Looking at China's track record of handing the internet inside their country why would any company want to run servers in that country?
I clicked here from a newsfeed thinking "wtf?" but after reading the summary it sounds just like something China would do to bring in business.
More like an oligarchy. But then, most governments really are, despite ideological trappings suggesting otherwise.
Must be we humans are wired that way.
largest city in China...(Administrative Area Population)...quite a significant city, I would say
Max.
So that all netizens in China will come to realize what they're being denied to all those years.
In former Eastern Germany, their communist regime provided retail stores only for foreigners (or specially privileged East Germans with western money). This made people there very resentful of their government... and eventually, they got rid of it. China's communists should be careful not to rise the ire of their citizens too much if they want to remain in power. Then again, why not? China could really need a breath of fresh air, at least politically.
cpghost at Cordula's Web.
and they think I would trust them?
DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
Please do not panic as we remove your comment. Everything is still fine.
All they want is more international traffic to cross thru china so they can eavesdrop. They've been trying to do this for years already by mucking with BGP and other routing tricks. The international community should use it solely for honeypots and as a base from which to probe chinese computers. We really should be pushing for ways to route ALL internet traffic around china and other repressive governments. Not to get the packets into the country past their censors, but to close off all business and governmental organisations from access. Or at least to protect our datastreams from their snooping and possible manipulation. Moving any form of resources, especially compute resources, into chine for any reason other than to serve the chinese is foolhardy at best.
On the one hand you take life too seriously, and on the other, you do not take playful existence seriously enough. Seth
When will people finally understand that there's a difference between communism/socialism and fascism/dictatorship.
You can have a democratic socialist system, you can have a despot ruled capitalist system.
Mix and match, bitches.
Divide a cake by zero. Is it still a cake?
Communism can mean different things in different contexts. All attempts at implementing communism at the state level thus far have resulted in some sort of oppressive dictatorship or oligarchy. It's hard to fault people for using the term communism to describe this kind of government in informal speech.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
If you fall for that one you're more stupid than you look. Once they have your data on their computers they can do what they want with it.
The 'Cloud' is just a fancy name for someone else's computers. Don't be a sucker.
It's hard to fault people for using the term communism to describe this kind of government in informal speech.
Really? Even if they have failed thus far, that does not mean that they will always fail. And, considering that communism can mean different things in different contexts, as you said, I think it is rather foolish for someone to imply that all types of communism advocate this type of government and treat communism as some sort of "evil" (as some people seem to do).
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
* Ahem * As a degree holder in Political Science with a minor in International Relations, ,i>kaff-kaff,/i>, I may be able to contribute here. The suspicions above are not without foundation. However, historically whenever a totalitarian regime has tried to espouse free and independent thought in a "contained" place, they often wind up growing free thinkers that they cannot later control. Hitler tried coddling his engineers, but they wound up sending secrets to the English and Americans. Stalin tried pampering Sakarov. So while I wouldn't drop my drawers in Chongqing's proposed Cloud Computing Special Zone, but I would applaud and encourage it. It could become an incubator for a representative there who actually believes what he's promising and would be frustrated to learn he's a front... a breeding ground for future Nobel Peace Prize nominees. So polite hurrahs are warranted.
Gently reply
I have a number of friends who do business in China and know a bit about the economic and social environment there. Communism generally only exists in name only and I'm generally convinced it persists to keep the current leadership in power. But then, with a few exceptions, people there are generally satisfied with things. It's difficult to complain about consistent 8% economic growth. And the fact is that most Chinese agree with government policies. Where Americans value free speech at all costs, for example, Chinese value stability more highly.
The interesting is that at the family Chinese, and Asians in general, have embraced communistic ideas. Families pool resources; it's one of the reasons they can come to the US and be so successful. On the other hand, on a larger scale their mindset is very free market. The fact is that economically China, and other successful Asian nations, are considerably more free market than the US. Or more specifically, they've struck a better balance between free market and control than either the US or Europe.
This is not to say that China doesn't have some serious problems; oppression aside I continue to think they've got a fairly good bubble going. But then again, I thought there was there was a real estate bubble in Taiwan 10 years ago and property values continue to rise unabated. But I suppose the people buying property there actually had the money for it.
Every time I talk to a friend of mine currently looking to expand further in China I'm left with the same impression: everything that the United States, with a weak economy, should be doing, China, with a strong economy, IS doing. It's extremely frustrating and makes me constantly question my decision not to partner with my friend in China.
"I think it is rather foolish for someone to imply that all types of communism advocate this type of government
Quite the contrary, communism is all about proletarian revolutions, power to the people and elections -- yes, elections. Dictators are getting elected. They are not really democratic elections, everything being directed with fake votes from a privileged minority, mechanical smiles and applauses and all that, but they are elections nonetheless.
However, you should go and learn some systems theory -- just because a trait of a system is not advocated, it doesn't mean that it isn't going to happen, regardless of any precautions you might take. Communism itself is really natural for dictatorships. And it is not only about its predilection for dictatorships; but it contains many flaws as an economic system too, like for example the notion that profits are only generated through surplus labor; not to mention that the working class is becoming more and more obsolete.
Its most important flaw however is that it fails to take into account human nature. People do not want to be equal, they do not want to share property and in general have a strong sense of ownership, not to mention selfishness. What happened instead is that in communist countries the higher you ended up in the political party, the more privileges you had, with corruption going rampant. Hence the phrase: in communism, some people are more equal than others.
Karl Marx used to say that capitalism leads to economic crisis, making them inevitable due to internal flaws. However, communism does not solve that. I lived in an European communist country - when the country had to pay its huge external debts, the austerity measures taken in the 80-ties (that lasted for 10 years) would make today's Greece look heaven-like.
And make no mistake about it, China is communism with a twist, but their biggest source of income are external investors that come to them because of driving forces of capitalism. It also remains to be seen how China will evolve, but evolve they must, trust me ;-)
However, you should go and learn some systems theory -- just because a trait of a system is not advocated, it doesn't mean that it isn't going to happen
Where in my post did I say that?
Communism itself is really natural for dictatorships.
From what we've observed so far, yes (and from the current implementations that were tried).
Its most important flaw however is that it fails to take into account human nature.
Not necessarily. However, even if so, that does not mean that it will always fail. I don't believe that communism will work exactly as intended, but I won't state that as an absolute fact.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Just like how china does with Falun Gong and they put in to death / prison camps for being part of Falun Gong.
Why wait for an invitation when you can just crash the party? All during the cold war the "Capitalism vs. Communism" dichotomy was show cased openly for the world to see. The US/USSR, W.Germany/E.Germany and North Korea/South Korea exhibits were very effective.
How often do you get an invitation to invade somebody? "See, we're really bored, and our military is itching for some killin'..."
Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
Yes. Very much like selective Capitalism.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Lol. No all communist governments are doomed to be dictatorial because of central planning and lack of individual rights. Communism can not be otherwise.
"Communism is NOT an economic system; it's a political system!" [..] propaganda we received about "Capitalism vs. Communism"
What bizarre statements. The whole point of communism is to describe how the economy should be structured, and yes, it is fundamentally the opposite of capitalism. Of course it is a political system, too. You can't dictate terms of the economy without involving politics.
That's a very sad college education you had.
They might not censor what is in that data center, but they sure as hell will monitor what goes in and out of it. If you think its a cheap way to out source your cloud computing you better be ready to have some of your info stolen by the Chinese Gov't as all wires in and out will be tapped.
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I will give this:
Communism works on a small scale. When people are known and reputations matter, communism works.
However, the system will completely break down when people start realizing that they can take more than they give and not suffer consequences for their action.
The history of the Internet shows this -- before the C&S USENET spam, people tended to behave because all it took was a call to their sysadmin and they would be tossed off the net. After C&S, where it was shown that people could get away with breaking traditions and mores to score some cash, it was only a matter of time before the system of "put a server up to help out, and other people do similar" went the way of the dodo, eclipsed by doing what it takes to earn cash.
Must be we humans are wired that way.
Most humans. There do exist some that can actually handle a true democracy. Unfortunately, these individuals lack the persuasive ability to promote this in any large scale. The majority of the human population just seems to be overly obsessed with trying to convince everyone else how special they are so they can monopolize authoritative influence over others.
Really? Even if they have failed thus far, that does not mean that they will always fail.
No but it's a pretty bad track record. Currently they are synonyms in informal speech. It may very well happen that a successful large communist community is established, at which point the informal definition will have to change. That's the beauty (and frustration) of language - it constantly changes to fit the new conditions. It's frustrating because it makes digging through historical records difficult, as you need to be familiar with the contemporary usage of a word. Oh well, that's why we have historians!
And, considering that communism can mean different things in different contexts, as you said, I think it is rather foolish for someone to imply that all types of communism advocate this type of government and treat communism as some sort of "evil" (as some people seem to do).
But that didn't happen in this case - he was specifically referring to the Chinese brand of "communism". He wasn't painting it in a good or bad light - just pointing out that the Chinese are willing to relax their supposed ideology for a business opportunity. You could see this as a good thing (if you are pragmatic) or a hypocritical thing (if you are idealistic), or a complex issue that is difficult to describe in black and white terms :)
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Hosting any foreign-sourced mission-critical data/logic or trade secrets within this hub would be a bad idea until the PRC gets better acquainted to the rule of law concept.
While members of the OECD have and will periodically invoke "novel" interpretations of their laws and legal precedents, law w/in China is still utterly secondary to the opinions of the whim of local officials and the CCP as a whole. So, for example, hosting a node of the Wikipedia or buying cycles to design the next Boeing or Airbus at a site w/in the zone would be asking for trouble.
Luke, help me take this mask off
Fear was one part of the equation.
The second part is that USENET was initially populated by professionals. Either college students, college professors, or people who worked at a "serious" job.
Also, reputation came into play. Relatively few people had anonymous handles, so if someone was jacking around, their name was on what they did.
I am showing my age, but I do miss the days before Eternal September.
Actually, I'm liking this idea. Just one more camel's nose under the tent. Keep shoving noses under there and maybe the great firewall will come crashing down.
I would argue that the main reason why real-world Communist regimes tend toward dictatorship is that they have all sprang from the same Leninist root originating from Russia; and one key point of that particular variety is "democratic centralism" - the idea being that leadership is elected democratically bottom up (via the council - "soviet" - system), but once elected, the decisions are to be unquestioningly obeyed top-down (i.e. if the supreme council decides something, it is fully binding on everyone underneath). It's easy to see that the system naturally tends towards oligarchy and then dictatorship, as those on top will tend to abuse their unrestricted power to root out any opposition and introduce roadblocks for the next "bottom up" cycle such that it becomes little more than sham.
To the best of my knowledge, there has been no attempt to implement communism anywhere in the world that wouldn't trace its lineage to Lenin, and therefore to the principle outlined above. Pol Pot, Mao, Hoxha, Castro, Tito - they all come from that same ideology.