Thunderbird Unseats Evolution In Ubuntu 11.10

An anonymous reader writes "Coinciding with the recent release of Mozilla Thunderbird 5 and its 400 performance and stability fixes, Canonical has decided that it's now fit for adoption in Ubuntu — and as of version 11.10, Thunderbird will replace Evolution as the default mail program. You can download the second alpha of Ubuntu 11.10 today and give Thunderbird a whirl."

Comments

BFT

[cadeon]

I've always hated evolution. Thunderbird is much cleaner.

Re:BFT

[Anonymous Coward]

I've always hated evolution. Thunderbird is much cleaner.

Look, can you religious nut-jobs take your "intelligent design" and thunder throwing sky gods elsewhere? Evolution is a well founded scientific...

What? Email programs?
*Ahem* Sorry for the interruption, carry on.

Re:BFT

[poetmatt]

absolutely. I also agree with the commenter below, get rid of empathy and go back to pidgin, and then we'll be a step closer to ubuntu not being crap.

Re:BFT

[ZankerH]

>implying the ubuntu team won't lock thunderbird in with a gazillion "system integration hacks" just like they did with evolution

Re:BFT

[Tarlus]

This! Why are GNOME's core dependencies so entangled with Evolution components, anyway?

Re:BFT

[cadeon]

Because, Evolution has been a part of the default GNOME suite for a very long time, so as more functionality was built, developers could assume Evolution was there.

Oops.

Re:BFT

[frisket]

Web-based email sucks little black toads. And it has no "Redirect" function. At least with Thunderbird there is a plugin.

Re:BFT

[Just Some Guy]

I'm willing to bet that they aren't removing Evolution from Ubuntu but just aren't installing it by default. If you're upgrading an older system, you'll get a newer version of Evolution along with everything else.

Re:BFT

[BitZtream]

Yea, I fucking hate it when someone bothers to take the time to make my applications start working together rather than all of them fumbling around like the only application in existence and trying to do EVERYTHING you could possibly want themselves.

The unix philosophy of chaining smaller apps together to get a lot more flexibility while still working in confined amounts of memory while still allowing work on large things is a great way to go.

However, realize it or not, the reason all those nice chained command lines work so well together is because people have thought about how they integrate with each other. If you think cut, grep, find, cat, touch, and most of the rest of /usr/bin aren't integrated with each other, you're just blind. Some of them, like xargs even exist almost soley as an integrator.

Don't be afraid of integration, just avoid shitty integration. Windows is an example of app integration that sucks. OS X is an example of it done reasonably well (At least for native apps on both accounts).

Re:BFT

[causality]

Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'

Debian takes 42 years to configure. I need a distro that works out of the box.

I have to admit, I was quite impressed when I recommended Kubuntu and in one case Xubuntu (for an older system) to a completely non-technical friend of mine. I was prepared to have to spend time helping with installation, configuration, etc. Instead, this person came to me a little later and told me the system is all set up, works great, and hasn't caused any problems. That was very nearly an expensive retail purchase of Windows 7.

When I started using Linux around 1996-1997, I had to calculate mode timings myself to get X to work and do all sorts of other things manually. At that time, recommending it to a non-techie would have been a great way to piss someone off. It's amazing to see that it's come such a long way in terms of usability.

Personally I run Gentoo and have been satisfied with it for some years now so you can probably see why Ubuntu/*buntu wouldn't be my personal distro of choice. But it's what I would recommend to anyone who just wants it to work anytime they need a new OS, get fed up with Windows, want to breathe some new life into an older system that's still good enough for e-mail and Web browsing, or just wants to try something different.

Re:BFT

[formfeed]

absolutely. I also agree with the commenter below,

And I agree with the comment that's going to be posted an hour from now, on how everything in Ubuntu is broken now, and unity is just he last straw, and that I'm definitely going to switch to something else soon.

Re:BFT

[supersloshy]

Pidgin has a lot more features than Empathy does, that's for sure, but when GNOME 3 came out I decided to make the switch... and I'm really liking it so far. Aside from not supporting blocking contacts on every protocol that Pidgin does (I think it only supports one or two protocols right now for that), it does just enough for me and it feels easier to use than Pidgin, in addition to having great GNOME 3 integration. As far as Ubuntu goes, they'd be better off using Pidgin, but every other distro, as in the GNOME 3 using ones, are much better off with Empathy in the long run. It's very pleasant to use, even if it is lacking in a few parts.

Re:BFT

[causality]

I'm willing to bet that they aren't removing Evolution from Ubuntu but just aren't installing it by default. If you're upgrading an older system, you'll get a newer version of Evolution along with everything else.

Except that, the general concensus for *all* desktop operating systems is that *upgrading* an OS from an old version is stupid, and it is always recommended to re-install the new version after backing up the /home folder.

Well, that is exactly what everybody says in ubuntuforums.org when people bring up problems with stuff breaking after running apt-get dist-upgrade

If you're going to have a function like "dist-upgrade" at all, it should work correctly. That's even more true when you produce a distribution specifically intended for nontechnical users.

Though, consider that Gentoo isn't sectioned off into versions of the distro. To update to the latest version of the distro, update your system as you normally would as part of routine maintainence. There is no format and reinstallation required (though you could do it if you just wanted to waste time). Having to do that to avoid upgrade hassles would honestly be a nuisance.

If a source distribution can do that, it should be even easier on a binary distribution. Everyone has the same compile-time options, everyone has the same mandatory dependencies, etc. There are fewer variables.

Re:BFT

[Culture20]

That suggests they have some stringent standards, especially considering the number of people who have been using Thunderbird for years without issue.

What really happened is they noticed the number of people who removed evolution and installed thunderbird every time they installed a new version of Ubuntu. Eventually, numbers mean something.

Evolution

[geek]

I never liked Evolution. It tried too hard to be Outlook. It was just as convoluted to configure, was buggy as sin and used an enormous amount of screen real estate. Thunderbird has it's issues here also but it's been far better than Evolution for some time now. I'm probably not the target audience anymore though, I've been using webmail for some time and have no intentions of switching back to a client.

Re:Evolution

[yarnosh]

I never understood the email-calendar connection. I don't see any advantage to having it in the same program. Switching to iCal is no more difficult than going to a different section of my email program. Generally I value keeping my email program fast and simple (thank you Mail.app). I cringe whenever I look at people's horrible email clients with a zillion different folders and functions.

Re:Evolution

[repetty]

I just like the web interface. In mid-90s when I started using email I started with a web interface (shitty, I must admit). I just never got used to using desktop apps for this.

That's like driving a car by running next to it, holding on the steering wheel.

Re:Evolution

[vegiVamp]

Evolution does support MAPI, but Exchange 2010 broke it, and apparently nobody's fixing it.

Re:Evolution

[gfxguy]

Because people use email to arrange and invite many people to meetings. I don't need my daily personal schedule in my email program, but getting an email invite to a meeting, clicking "accept" and having it automatically added to my calendar is pretty nice. Sure, you could make it work that the calendar program is separate, but why bother if you're going to run both anyway? Anyway, lightening is then linked to one of my Google calendars anyway, so no matter where I go I can check my schedule. So... anyway, I can see why you might not like it, but "never understood?" It actually makes perfect sense. And this isn't evolution or outlook... even with lightening add-on, thunderbird starts up quickly and is still relatively lightweight by comparison.

Re:Evolution

[Dr_Barnowl]

Yup, I quit using Thunderbird for two reasons

  * My office switched to Exchange ensconced behind a firewall so you could no longer use IMAP
  * Thunderbird 3 was downloading all my mail from Google multiple times, and indexing it multiple times, and presenting it in search results multiple times

Re:Evolution

[BitZtream]

You do realize that Tags in the web interface are exposed as folders on the IMAP side ... and they can be nested just like folders ... right?

I've been using gmail for years, I have at least 3 levels deep of folders (Year -> Month -> General or TopicBasedFolder) under the inbox.

I can access them both in my desktop client (Apple Mail, Thunderbird, and Outlook, depending on the OS at the moment).

Re:Evolution

[yarnosh]

The email calender connection is simple -- email is used for invitations. invitations to events are sent via email, and the invited parties can accept, decline and such, also through emails.

But why? Wouldn't a dedicated protocol be better? LIke CalDAV? You need something like this to be able to do things like view people's availability BEFORE sending the invite. How do you do this if you're using the MTA only to pass around invites? The nice thing about a seperate calendar protocol is that it allows you to use whatever email client you want and wahtever calendar you want. You don't have to try to find one program that does everything perfectly they way you like. That always annoyed me in corporate environments because you're forced to use crap like Outlook or Lotus Notes. And it is doubly worse if you're nto using Windows.

it's much more convenient to be able to just be able to see the invite in the email app, see if it conflicts with an existing event, and click "accept" ro decline or whatever, all in the email app, in the message view pane.

No easier than your calendar program notifying you that you have a new invite and asking you if you want to accept. I don't really see the difference or the advantage of having it in a message pane in you email program.

Re:Evolution

[yarnosh]

Because to coordinate meetings via iCal (or exchange), everyone has to be on the same iCal (or exchange) server/cluster. Your iCal server won't connect to my iCal server to tell it about the meetings you want to coordinate. gmail/google apps for your domain allow you to cross boundaries slightly, but only because you're really still on the same 'server'. Your gmail ical server still won't talk to mine.

Using a calendar protocol instead of SMTP allows me to do neato nifty things like check people's availability before sending an invite. If you rely on email to exchange calendar events, then you miss out on a whole lot of calendar functionality.

Or ... You can email specially formatted messages to each other with the meeting information.

I can do both. Apple Mail understands calendar invites and adds them to my iCal. But normally I prefer to use the CalDAV connection to the companies Goggle domain for day to day stuff.

Thunderbird and its relation can't just pop off to the built in OS sendmail method because one of the OSes they favor doesn't have a built in standard API for sending and checking mail that is easily configurable by a desktop user.

Ideally your calendar server would handle all that for you.

. but why reinvent the wheel, you need a gecko engine for lightning anyway,

Should it use the gecko engine at all?

might as well just piggy back it on an email client you can target that works across all your supported OSes and provides you a consistent interface to access messages ... and interface which SOMEONE ELSE maintains the OS native integration with.

I tend to give a heavy preferrence to native software. I prefer software that can integrate well with the desktop over software that looks the same on all platforms. I don't really care what Mail/Calendar look like to WIndows users. I'm using a Mac.

How many times do you want to have to tell software your email account info?

The point is that I don't think SMTP is an appropriate for sharing calendars. So... just once. My calendar server should take care of talking to other people for me.

About time

[sakdoctor]

I like "close to how I set things up anyway", so that I don't have to fight against stupid defaults all the time. Purge evolution, purge empathy, install thunderbird, install pidgin. Done. That was the appeal of Ubuntu.

Though they've jumped the shark with unity, so ... I'll switch to Debian now I guess.

Download

[Dan East]

You can download the second alpha of Ubuntu 11.10 today and give Thunderbird a whirl.

Wow, you have to download and install an entire OS distribution to try an email client.

Re:Download

[mrand]

If you wish to just try it without seeing how they are integrating it into the OS, no. Duh

https://launchpad.net/~mozillateam/+archive/thunderbird-stable

Exchange connectivity?

[dousette]

How does Thunderbird 5 handle full Exchange connectivity (including Calendaring, Contacts, Tasks, etc)? That is my main reason for sticking with Evolution.

Addressbook

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm really surprised they're doing this before they fix Thunderbird's Addressbook. How they still have not implemented allowing as many email addresses as you want to add for a person is beyond me.

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=118665

Re:Addressbook

[Just Some Guy]

And along those lines, I wish they'd decouple message preferences from the address book. For example, I get a sales newsletter from an online computer parts retailer we all know and love, and the only way to tell Thunderbird to always display the images from that sender is to add them to my address book and set an option there. Why, oh why? Thunderbird already uses SQLite for other stuff, so why can't it have a table like showimages (address varchar, show boolean) instead of making me litter my contact database?

Thunderbird is the best for Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

The only decent mail client on Linux is Thunderbird. Everything else crashes, locks up, and doesn't set up as easy.

I've tried 'em all and every major release, I try them again - same result every time so far: crap.

Re:Thunderbird is the best for Linux

[ChrisMP1]

Everything else crashes,

I use Mutt. It's never crashed for me.

locks up,

I use Mutt. It's never locked up for me.

and doesn't set up as easy.

I use... ah hell, carry on. I would probably crash if I lost my muttrc...

Re:best native KDE mailer?

[medlefsen]

KMail is the only "native" mail app but, unlike gnome, KDE works well with thunderbird. With a little effort you can even make it use the KDE theme and dialogs. Not 100% ideal, but maybe 95%. And, after switching, I've been able to stop thinking about my mail client and actually get some work done.

Evolution Dependencies

[Curunir_wolf]

Good news! Now if they could just rip out all those Evolution dependencies, maybe I could install a functional Gnome desktop without all the Evolution crap that I never use.

It's good, but

[Compaqt]

Agree.

I like Thunderbird because:
-I like to keep the same apps across platforms
-The availability of plugins
-The fact that plugins can be programmed more easily than for Evolution (do they have them? are they done in C?)

Yet at the same time, this continues the general theme of Ubuntu keeping on messing things around and changing them. Pick one thing and stick with it! F-spot -> Shotwell, Pidgin -> Empathy, drop GIMP, drop OpenOffice (from CD), Gnome -> Unity, etc.

Cross platform helps.

[LWATCDR]

I have yet to see a windows version of Evolution. I keep hearing about one but so far I have not seen one. Thunderbird works on Windows and Linux so it is a better choice for people that have to use both systems.

Re:Cross platform helps.

[glwtta]

I have yet to see a windows version of Evolution.

It's been around for a while: http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/

Anachronistic much?

[aussersterne]

Apple is working on multiple-device cloud services and bringing the app-supplants-web model to every form factor. Microsoft is working on new mobile platforms and the multitouch desktop.

Meanwhile, Linux continues to be embroiled in the devastatingly interesting GNOME vs. KDE and POP email client wars.

1999 called. They want their story back.

Re:Anachronistic much?

[tuffy]

And Apple has finally introduced downloadable apps to its core OS, like Debian's had since 1999 via apt. But we're still waiting for delta updates to those apps, like Fedora has supported for years via delta RPM.

Plenty of anachronisms to go around.

Re:Anachronistic much?

[Pausanias]

Let's face it: this is about GNOME/KDE, not Linux the kernel. Linux the kernel has won already. It's not the year of "Linux on the Desktop", it's the year of Linux on the Android/Tivo/VirginAmerica/the list goes on...

Linux the kernel is no longer relevant to this discussion. FWIW, Apple's Mach kernel is just as good as Linux. The discussions are about GNOME/KDE vs. Mac OS/iOs vs. Windows.

The backend is just catching up to Debian/yum, but the front end is way ahead. Once there is parity between the Linux backends and the Apple/Windows ones, there will be little reason to switch. Especially given how many of the best free and open source software is available now natively compiled for Windowds and Mac OS. The big game changer was the fact that Windows 7 doesn't suck any more. It's actually usable, if still closed.

Setup Wizard

[Anonymous Coward]

And they STILL haven't fixed the setup wizard. I've said the same thing with every release since thunderbird 3: the setup process needs a way to completely BYPASS the wizard, BEFORE the wizard starts spinning out of control. Not after, not during, but BEFORE.

It's not rocket science. The very first thing you do, before committing any changes, is prompt the user: "Would you like to use the account setup wizard, or would you like to setup your account manually?" For christ's sake, it's going to take all of 5 minutes to implement this.

I don't need or want an "improved" wizard. I need a way to bypass it, cleanly and without a trace. (And I say "without a trace" because even if you manage to stop the wizard, the first server address it pulls out of its ass, however wrong it may be, will be the chosen name of your new account and account folder.) The only thing worse than making assumptions about how the user intends to use the program is forcing the user to follow those assumptions. PLEASE, don't do it.

How to connect to Exchange (use DavMail proxy)

[lotzmana]

For everybody operating in a corporate environment mail, calendar and address book are delivered by an Exchange server. Thunderbird is good for pop3/imap/ldap which are all open standards but Exchange doesn't talk these protocols.

Enter DavMail -- a proxy that connects to Exchange server on one hand and exports pop3/imap/ldap on the other. I have been successfully using it for the past 3-4 years.

(bashrc.sourceforge.net -- configuration tricks for bashrc)