Test Driving GNU Hurd, With Benchmarks Against Linux

I guess it was inevitable... by 14erCleaner · 2011-07-18 07:02 · Score: 5, Funny

...now that Duke Nukem Forever has been released.

--
Have you read my blog lately?

Re:I guess it was inevitable... by justsomebody · 2011-07-18 07:32 · Score: 4, Funny

Now all we need is hell freezing over and pigs to start flying... damnit, i might start to believê 2012 is really end of the world

--
Signature Pro version 1.13.2-3 release 83.5 beta3try7 after-breakfast edition
Re:I guess it was inevitable... by GameboyRMH · 2011-07-18 07:41 · Score: 5, Insightful

Hurd, DNF, Wine 1.0, Gmail out of beta, Windows running stable, grannies using Linux, video chat on handheld computers, movies commonly coming out in 3D, video games you don't play with your hands, electric cars on dealership lots, a US president who isn't a white guy...
We're in THE FUTURE. It just doesn't feel like it, because it's fuckin' lame.

--
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Re:I guess it was inevitable... by Tetsujin · 2011-07-18 07:51 · Score: 4, Funny

Hurd, DNF, Wine 1.0, Gmail out of beta, Windows running stable, grannies using Linux, video chat on handheld computers, movies commonly coming out in 3D, video games you don't play with your hands, electric cars on dealership lots, a US president who isn't a white guy...
Dogs and cats living together... Mass hysteria!

--
Bow-ties are cool.
Re:I guess it was inevitable... by Baloroth · 2011-07-18 07:57 · Score: 5, Insightful

I realize this is a joke, but the comparison is surprisingly apt. Projects that are delayed like this are rarely, if ever, successful. After so long in development, half the code is probably designed for hardware that is 20 years old, and the remaining half is designed for hardware spread across those intervening 20 years. Since the project was continually under development but never released, by the time they finish updating old sections of the code, the hardware they revised it to support is already several years old. And the code that was modern is even older. And since no one is actually using it, they don't have a massive base of users modifying, testing, and updating it like real operating systems (i.e. Linux, FreeBSD, etc) do.
The result, if it ever gets released, is a cobbled together mess, most of which is outdated and barely works, and the rest is buggy and poorly coded because they were trying to shove it out the door. Any modern features that it has either don't work properly, or don't mesh with the rest of the project. Just like DNF. At this point, the Hurd developers should either admit defeat and close the project, or get enough people together that they can scrap everything, start from the ground up, and rewrite the whole thing within a few years. Otherwise, they will be constantly behind and never become relevant. Likely, they won't do this, which is why I doubt Hurd will ever really make any kind of impact. Being released might help, or it might just make people realize that this is essentially an operating system that was designed 20 years ago and should be abandoned. My money is on the latter.

--
"None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
Re:I guess it was inevitable... by Artraze · 2011-07-18 08:26 · Score: 3, Insightful

The trouble is, of course, that this 'future' is now, and we've been watching and waiting for it to get to this point for, well, all of history. And it hasn't lived up to it's hype. The tech that was X years away arrived, evaporated, or came in as expected but never actually lived up to the dream. The 'problems' we solved are replaced by new, even more threatening ones. Etc, etc.
The present will always be a day late and dollar short of future, but at least it's motivating.
Re:I guess it was inevitable... by thePowerOfGrayskull · 2011-07-18 08:34 · Score: 5, Insightful

Hurd, DNF, Wine 1.0, Gmail out of beta, Windows running stable, grannies using Linux, video chat on handheld computers, movies commonly coming out in 3D, video games you don't play with your hands, electric cars on dealership lots, a US president who isn't a white guy...
For bonus points, read the litany above to the tune of "We Didn't Start the Fire".
More seriously, though, I disagree. It's not that it's lame, it's that it's half-assed.
Sure, Hurd and DNF are done. Read TFA and the reviews, respectively.
Wine is here, but there's still a ton of shit it can't run. Windows is stable, but aside from becoming more usable it's no revolutionary change over how we interact with computers compared to 15 years ago.
Grannies run Linux, but for many more serious uses it's arguably not there for many other desktop uses.
3d movies ... if you wear the special glasses and don't mind the 3d headache. Nor the price premium.
Hands free video games... great. We flail at our screens with all of our limbs now. That's an improvement? That's the best we can do with this technology?
Electric cars that are so expensive and so limited their only practical value is to prove that they can done, and to make some people feel better about their consumerism. That's not getting into the fact that we've simply shifted its carbon footprint to different places and times.
A non-white president who pushed to have the recession "officially over" two years ago, while continuing to publish the adjusted unemployment numbers introduced by the Bush regime to help hide how bad things really are. Let's not get into the multiple ongoing military actions that have actually increased instead of decreasing. New boss/old boss.
Video chat on handheld computers if you're on wifi, or if your carrier provides 4g, and if you don't mind getting raped on data charges, and if you have good network coverage, and if the other person has video, wants to use it, and has the same type of handheld OS that you do.
Yeah, we have all the things the future promised us. But none of it is done right. It's all limited, half-assed, restricted, and - in too many ways - not adding any real value because of those problems.
Re:I guess it was inevitable... by jellomizer · 2011-07-18 08:49 · Score: 4, Insightful

The future is like that toy you always wanted as a kid, once you get it, it is not quite like how you hoped it would be.

--
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Re:I guess it was inevitable... by jellomizer · 2011-07-18 08:56 · Score: 3, Insightful

That and you got real-life forces getting in the way. We hope for a Star Trek type utopia where Tech will solve all our human problems... It doesn't and it won't.
I could see the Religious people fighting tooth and nail against the use of the Transporter, in bitter arguments for hundreds of year. I can see the Holodeck being a Red Light district of technology, perhaps leading to a population drop, or a bunch of people being hopelessly unproductive in them. Every time you go to a new planet there will be millions of microbes that think you are the newest candy, or you spread a microbe that wipes out a population.

--
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Re:I guess it was inevitable... by Darinbob · 2011-07-18 10:06 · Score: 3, Informative

I had a flying car last week too. Ok, it only flew a few yards past the guard rail, and it was more like a cross between a glide and a plummet, but still it's clearly a sign!

Brilliant, but... by Neil_Brown · 2011-07-18 07:08 · Score: 3, Funny

... does it run Linux?

Re:Brilliant, but... by MightyMartian · 2011-07-18 07:12 · Score: 5, Funny

It barely runs Hurd, for chrissake.

--
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.

How free is free? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-18 07:10 · Score: 5, Funny

Yes, it's slower, but did they measure how much freedom it achieved?

Re:How free is free? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-07-18 07:15 · Score: 4, Funny

Yes. Hurd single handedly liberated Egypt, Bahrain, and Syria. China fears that they will boot HURD again and it may free China as well.

A toy for now by ianare · 2011-07-18 07:11 · Score: 3, Insightful

20 years of development and 10 years behind in almost every aspect. Hardware support basically non existing, no X11, but no SMTP support is what really surprised me. I though better multithread was one of advantages of the Mach architecture. Anyways, even on a single core machine Linux is faster, there wasn't a single test in which Hurd did noticeably better.

I wish them luck, but I don't think I would even be capable of installing it on any of my machines any time soon.

Re:A toy for now by DeBaas · 2011-07-18 07:35 · Score: 4, Insightful

where's an edit button when you need one ?
Hurd is not the only thing 10 years behind.....
whooosh there goes my karma

--
---
Re:A toy for now by timeOday · 2011-07-18 09:10 · Score: 4, Insightful

Revising comments should only be allowed if the comment has not yet been moderated or replied to.

GNU/Linux by Bloodwine77 · 2011-07-18 07:12 · Score: 3, Funny

I remember the days when you said, "Linux", there would be an army of zealots that would swarm you and chant, "IT'S GNU/LINUX! IT'S GNU/LINUX!!"

Re:GNU/Linux by mickwd · 2011-07-18 08:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

I remember the days when you could come to Slashdot and expect a discussion on the technical merits or demerits of a subject like an alternative operating system, with input from one or two people who really knew their onions.
I remember the days when people were technically curious about stuff which was different, just because it was different, and they wanted to know what it did and how it worked.
Where did all those people go?

Serious question by AdmiralXyz · 2011-07-18 07:18 · Score: 3, Interesting

Not trying to troll here, but why would one use GNU Hurd? What does it offer over Linux? The only fundamental technical difference of note I see is that it's got a microkernel, and arguing about monolithic kernels vs. microkernels is like arguing about vi vs. Emacs: I haven't seen anyone do it seriously, instead of tongue-in-cheek, in years. I imagine there are "non-free" parts of Linux scattered about, and maybe that's a reason to use GNU Hurd, but pretty much all of those are due to device drivers, and making a new OS won't help with that. Even rms admits it's a waste of time. Does Debian really have nothing better to do?

--
Dislike the Electoral College? Lobby your state to join the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact.

Linux vs HURD by mswhippingboy · 2011-07-18 07:29 · Score: 4, Interesting

At the risk of being lambasted, I don't understand why everyone is kicking so hard at HURD. Sure, it's nowhere close to Linux in any respect, but then it never attracted the throngs of developers that Linux did. OS/X is proof that the idea of building on the mach kernel can result in a sound and performant OS. I for one salute those that have stuck with or picked up development of what many would consider a lost cause. Eschewing a technology because it's not popular does not engender innovation. Personally, I hope the HURD team begins to attract more developers and eventually begins to catch up with Linux because competition, even in the FOSS arena, is always a good thing.

--
Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.

Re:Linux vs HURD by gl4ss · 2011-07-18 07:45 · Score: 5, Interesting

hurd is an example of how despite being open and free, you can still run the ship with closed minds. it almost seems like a grant money scam.

--
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Re:Linux vs HURD by steveha · 2011-07-18 08:27 · Score: 3, Interesting

I think that people kick at HURD because of the grand claims made by some HURD fans. These grand claims have not panned out.
If you look at the old HURD FAQ, you will see claims that "Linux and BSD don't scale well" and that HURD, being based on Mach, should scale better for SMP; furthermore, HURD would be "considerably more flexible and robust than generic Unix".
The superior architecture of HURD was supposed to make it easier and faster to develop and debug HURD, and thus HURD was going to leapfrog past Linux as the obviously better solution.
Kernel debugging in Linux is significantly harder than user-space debugging. The microkernel design of HURD was supposed to allow for things like file systems to be written and debugged with the ease of user-space development under Linux. That being the case, it seems surprising that HURD is so far behind Linux after so many years.
I'm not an expert on this stuff, but here are my thoughts on the current Linux and HURD situation:
First, Linux scales really well now. People are using Linux on really large SMP systems.
Second, a microkernel architecture, while more robust than a monokernel, cannot be as fast as the monokernel. If one subsystem wants another subsystem to do something, it must format and send a message; the other subsystem then receives the message, unpacks it, validates it, and then does the action. This is more secure and more stable than the monokernel, where the one subsystem will just make a function call in the other subsystem's code; but it is inherently slower. So Linux is scaling better than HURD expected, and Linux has an inherent speed edge, so HURD is unlikely to outperform Linux. Meanwhile, while it might be true that HURD is easier to debug than Linux, the kernel developers have figured out how to debug Linux, and there just isn't enough benefit there to warrant a switch to HURD.
Finally, Linux is widely used and well understood; lots of businesses are running mission-critical apps on Linux. Even if HURD's microkernel design gave it a theoretical edge on Linux for reliability, the real-world experience is all on Linux; it has been shown to be Good Enough while HURD is only theoretically better.
steveha

--
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Re:Linux vs HURD by mswhippingboy · 2011-07-18 08:30 · Score: 3, Interesting

Actually, if I were a developer interested in getting heavily involved in OS development (which I am), and had the time (which I don't), something like this would be appealing to me. Trying to get one's arms around Linux, much less to be able to obtain commit status is about near impossible for someone just starting out. HURD is much smaller and the mountain to climb much lower to reach the point of being able to contribute to the project. I also think it's premature to write off micro-kernel technology all together at this point. Massively Multi-core CPUs (as in 100's or 1000's of cores) may mitigate the performance hit that micro-kernels suffer from on today's hardware and may prove to be a better fit than the monolithic Linux kernel of today. I don't know that to be fact, though no doubt many here will point out how wrong that position is, but it makes sense to me instinctively. The point is, no knowledge gained is wasted knowledge and whether it leads to enhancements to Linux or boosts the viability of this technology, the endeavor is certainly worth exploring.

--
Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.

Re:It's sad, really by AdmiralXyz · 2011-07-18 07:32 · Score: 4, Informative

Actually, Stallman has nothing to do with pushing this project, he thinks it's a waste of time and effort (see Q13). I'm not sure who is fronting this thing, but I want some of their stash.

--
Dislike the Electoral College? Lobby your state to join the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact.

Re:better quit now. by phrostie · 2011-07-18 08:45 · Score: 3, Insightful

it's not a matter of it being fastest, it's about options.

Attacks in the IT world tend to come in the form of software patents or claims of stolen code through a proxy.

all the BSDs, Hurd, Reactos and other such projects only make for more moving targets.

if you use them or not, if you are impressed with them or not, they all still serve a purpose.

there will always be free options.

Slashdot Mirror

Test Driving GNU Hurd, With Benchmarks Against Linux

26 of 335 comments (clear)