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NAND Flash Better Than DRAM For PC Performance

Lucas123 writes "Adding NAND flash memory to a PC does more for performance than DRAM and costs less, according to a new study. As the price difference between the two memory types widens, NAND flash will become the memory of choice in the PC. The effects of NAND flash adoption are already being felt in the DRAM market, as revenue in 2011 is expected to decline 11.8%."

205 comments

  1. One Problem by rhook · · Score: 4, Informative

    NAND flash degrades over time and has a limited amount of program/erase cycles.

    1. Re:One Problem by MichaelKristopeit423 · · Score: 0, Funny

      so do humans.

    2. Re:One Problem by king+neckbeard · · Score: 2

      and humans make horrible PC components.

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    3. Re:One Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly what they want. Planned obsolescence.

    4. Re:One Problem by c0lo · · Score: 1

      so do humans.

      Wake me up when NAND has a life-time 10% of an average human and we'll talk.

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      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    5. Re:One Problem by c0lo · · Score: 2

      Exactly what they want. Planned obsolescence.

      From my perspective, NAND as RAM are already obsolete. Voting with my wallet, never going to buy as such (I ruined one of the first eeepc-es by installing a Linux and setting up a swap space. What I was thinking? 10 minutes later, I almost have a brick in my hands... salvaged only with an external SD card for storage).

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    6. Re:One Problem by Skuto · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you're saying first-generation NAND controllers are obsolete. Woohoo. Doesn't say much for the technology in general.

    7. Re:One Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but you obviously have no concept of the physics behind how these things work. Your willful ignorance does not prove their malice.

    8. Re:One Problem by symbolset · · Score: 1

      NAND flash degrades over time and has a limited amount of program/erase cycles.

      Spinning rust degrades over time and has a limited amount of write/erase cycles.

      The difference between NAND flash and spinning rust is that it's faster. Early evolutions of NAND flash reached the limits of their write cycles therefore. Modern evolutions of NAND flash make it more durable and reliable than spinning rust in every instance - and the speed and storage density is just a bonus.

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    9. Re:One Problem by Vectormatic · · Score: 1

      No offense meant, but why the hell did you do that? If you bought a first gen eee, you knew what you where getting into, that it had a small SSD instead of a spinning platter drive, and since SSDs werent firstly introduced in the eee, the fact that NAND degrades and isnt a good choice for swap space was known as well.

      I got a first gen eee as well, and did install linux as well, but instead of using swap, i just doubled the ram and disabled swap.

      --
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    10. Re:One Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Storage density - at least in terms of cost/GB - is still the big advantage HDD holds. If that were gone, it'd be curtains for HDD and Seagate and WD would be selling only SSDs.

      But the original argument is about the endurance of flash, which is typically 1000 cycles per sector/block/whatever one calls it. The number of times RAM is written to by a CPU far far exceeds that! That metric alone would ensure that RAM won't be replaced, unless a non-volatile RAM came about.

    11. Re:One Problem by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not to mention what TFA neglects is the simple fact that one doesn't need as much memory as they do storage space so comparing the two? More than a little pointless.

      When DDR 2 was so cheap I bought 8Gb for my PC, which thanks to Superfetch means ALL of the programs that I use frequently? Instant load, poof, faster than even an SSD could possibly load them because they are already in RAM waiting for me and as we know RAM is several orders of magnitude faster than the fastest SSD. I won't build a PC anymore with less than 3Gb and I usually try to talk the customer into 4Gb, why? Again thanks to intelligent prefetching by the OS the programs they use most often will be preloaded into RAM waiting on them, thus not only making the PC crazy fast but also cutting down on drive spinning which lets the drive park the heads and thus lowers heat and power usage.

      Meanwhile the tech they are pushing is so damned unreliable Jeff Atwood at Coding Horror says they should be judged on a hot/crazy scale as they go tits up quite often in return for the crazy speed. Atwood still loves them but I would point out he is the same guy that recommends spending over $400 on a pair of headphones like he does. If you have the money to blow a couple of grand a year on big fast SSDs? I'm happy for you, you are doing better in a dead economy than most. But RAM almost never wears out and can easily last a decade, is still relatively cheap for maxing out a PC, and the performance one gets nowadays for giving the OS plenty of RAM for fetching is really quite stunning. By having plenty of RAM and hybrid sleep my customers have an instant on PC that loads every program they use as fast as they can click the button. What more can you ask for?

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    12. Re:One Problem by c0lo · · Score: 1

      No offense meant, but why the hell did you do that?

      No offence taken. As an excuse for a stupid thing... I was doing it at wee hours in the morning.

      Anyway, I wrote off the money for the extra SD card as "tuition fees" (as in "lesson learnt").

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    13. Re:One Problem by IICV · · Score: 1

      You're very much a question talker, aren't you?

      And anyway, the reason why you would use NAND as RAM instead of the current DRAM if they could work out the kinks is because NAND doesn't need power to maintain state. This means that you could be doing something on your computer, kill the power without any sort of warning at all, and then plug it in later and resume exactly where you were before. It would lead to, for instance, near-zero battery usage sleep in mobile devices; they would be able to almost shut off when you're not using them, using only very little power to do wireless upkeep type stuff.

      It will be awesome when they get it to work, and believe me it's only a matter of time; once SSD technology becomes more stable, the fabrication capacity and experience will exist to make even more expensive and delicate NAND ram.

    14. Re:One Problem by symbolset · · Score: 2

      Forgive me, but you've shifted the context.

      I was using RAMdisk for storage over 30 years ago. It's great performance storage, but the whole forgetting everything on power loss is an issue. We've done ten workarounds that I know about.

      You kids these days, you think you invented everything.

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    15. Re:One Problem by Terrasque · · Score: 0

      It's when I see posts like this I'd wish we had "-1, Just Plain damn wrong" mod.

      I agree with your first two sentences, but the two paragraphs under are just .. well.. how shall I say it? It's like listening to a crack-smoking environmentalist talking about cars.

      Return rates: HDD & SSD

      And prefetch is nowhere near the same feeling as an SSD. I know. I have 6gb ram, and ran Win7 on a raptor before switching to SSD. The difference really was huge. I have bought a total of 3 SSD's (2 el cheapo's and one proper), and all three still works perfectly.

      I've also convinced 2 work colleagues and a friend to try out SSD. All three had Win7 and plenty of RAM. All three was astonished over how much better responsiveness the PC had after the upgrade. One even said it fundamentally changed how he used the PC, from keeping it on all the time, to just turn it on when needed.

      With current data write rate and wear leveling the SSD in my gaming rig is expected to have a lifetime of minimum 10 years before the flash bricks will start to wear out.

      --
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    16. Re:One Problem by Terrasque · · Score: 1

      Heh. My main computer's SSD, with the current write pattern, is expected to last at least 10 years before it starts to fail (before it hits the limit where manufacturer says the first chips might start to fail).

      (well, according to this program at least)

      --
      It's The Golden Rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules."
    17. Re:One Problem by daid303 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I work with flash daily, we make products that last 15 years with flash. Without large failure rates. The problem is not with flash. It's with the SSD implementation. It's the "let's replace harddisks with flash! and don't change anything else!" that causes problems. Because of this normal filesystems are used, that assume to be on spinning harddrives, which have no issue in writing the same sector twice, or just writing 1 sector at once. On flash on the other hand you need to do wear-leveling, and have large erase blocks. Both are handled on the SSD right now, and that's where it fucks up. It needs to maintain an internal mapping of all the flash, accounting for wear-level and shifting blocks around. One error in this internal management and your disk is junk. Even with your fancy journaling filesystem (ntfs/ext3,4/...) you are just 1 power failure away from losing your data.

      Compact flash cards, SD cards, SSD, USB sticks all see this problem. So far we've only found a few suppliers of Compact flash cards which guarantee the internal management is safe, and we tested it and found it to be true. SD cards, I've a few broken "industrial grade" SD cards on my desk as proof that this is not the case. SSD is to large for our product, so I have no tests for these, but I expect the problem to be the same.

      We use raw flash, with linux and JFFS2 or UBIFS. Which is a filesystem designed to run on flash, raw flash. Wake me when "SSD" offers that solution.
      (TRIM is not a sollution, it's a workaround)

    18. Re:One Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fail troll is fail.

    19. Re:One Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      meh. I've 8gb of ram and the only time I hear disk spinning is when I bring up the start menu to shut down the pc.

    20. Re:One Problem by John+Allsup · · Score: 1

      "expected": So it could fail today or tomorrow. This is unlikely, but you should plan to cover this contingency with a proper backup plan so that if it fails, you lose neither time nor data.

      --
      John_Chalisque
    21. Re:One Problem by Matt_R · · Score: 1

      "expected": So it could fail today or tomorrow.

      So will some humans.

    22. Re:One Problem by c0lo · · Score: 1

      And you compare a 200 GB HDD with an 8 GB one? More over, in the context of TFA, with an 8 GB meant to replace the RAM?

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    23. Re:One Problem by jawtheshark · · Score: 2

      Weird... I have done that too. Asus EEE 704 4G, with a swap space. I installed other operating systems a few times (Reset the original a few times, Debian Sid, Ubuntu 10.10/Netbook edition, Debian Squeeze which is what it's currently running) It's still going strong. My wife was in hospital for a full 8 months and it was her (only) computer during that time and she used it every day to email/surf/watch movies/listen to music. During that time it did have a small swap partition (By now, I switched to swap files as they are easier to change when running out of disk space).

      The only difference I might see is that I installed a 2GB module the day I got it. From what I've seen it rarely to never passes the 512MB usage mark with the above mentioned systems So, with only 512MB RAM, it might hit the swap space occasionally. To kill it? Probably not enough.

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      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    24. Re:One Problem by w0mprat · · Score: 2

      In practice it won't matter. I calculated my 60gb SSD would have a lifespan of eight years based on it's current use over 6 months. Well before then 60gb won't be a useful size, and it would be bested in both price and performance by a $20 bargain bin 2 terabyte USB stick in 2019. It's more likely the RoHS compliant crap the controller board is soldered up with these days will fail long before the NAND chips actually begin to eat itself. Considering many gadgets these days have a 2-3 year design life (OTTOMH some laptop manurfacturers report 25% failure on three year warranty programs) before they are horrifically obsolete flash cycle limitations is just not a problem.

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    25. Re:One Problem by Terrasque · · Score: 1

      Why thank you for pointing this out! This is so completely unlike HDD's which I've used for over 20 years now! You should write an article and post it to Slashdot [/sarcasm]

      Sorry, was too big a temptation :)
      Anyway, what you point out is true, and is exactly the same for harddisks. Which is why I have a server with 6tb in raid5 for storing anything important (and, I'll admit, a truckload of unimportant stuff).

      Plus dropbox also works as a secondary backup system for some of my data (mostly code snippets and projects, savegames, text documents.. Generally data that's small and is survivable if US govt looks at it :) ) - dropbox also have the bonus of mirroring the data over several seperate computers, making it a good backup even if my house burned down and dropbox went tits-up at the same moment.

      --
      It's The Golden Rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules."
    26. Re:One Problem by Imbrondir · · Score: 1

      so do humans.

      Wake me up when NAND has a life-time 10% of an average human and we'll talk.

      I don't think too many can 'store' a memory for 7 years without the memory being constantly 'copied'. I mean it has to constantly be refreshed. First preferably the next day, then a week later, a month, then every year after that to truly keep it. NAND should be able to compete with that.

    27. Re:One Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Compact flash cards, SD cards, SSD, USB sticks all see this problem. So far we've only found a few suppliers of Compact flash cards which guarantee the internal management is safe, and we tested it and found it to be true. SD cards, I've a few broken "industrial grade" SD cards on my desk as proof that this is not the case. SSD is to large for our product, so I have no tests for these, but I expect the problem to be the same.

      If you expect SSDs to have exactly the same problems as SD cards, you're a total moron with at best shallow expertise in the field. Go look up the specs of controller ICs used in SSDs and try to tell me with a straight face that they're exactly the same thing you'd get in a SD card, or even a very good CF card.

      To pick just one example, do you know of any CF cards which compress all data on the fly in order to increase effective flash lifespan by reducing the total amount of data written? (Since the SSD controllers in question use hardware compression engines which can handle hundreds of megabytes per second throughput, this also has the nice side effect of increasing effective performance, unless you're storing incompressible data.)

      We use raw flash, with linux and JFFS2 or UBIFS. Which is a filesystem designed to run on flash, raw flash. Wake me when "SSD" offers that solution.

      Whatever makes you think the FTL (flash translation layer) firmware inside SSDs isn't designed to run on flash, raw flash? Whatever makes you think that a generic one-size-fits-all software solution like JFFS2 applied to whatever random flash memory you put in your embedded system is better than a SSD whose firmware has been tuned for the specific flash chips it was built with? (One of the fun things about NAND flash is that it's far from generic, especially MLC, and even more especially sub-30nm MLC NAND.)

      More broadly, JFFS2 is one way to skin the cat, having a "drive" abstract flash into a generic block device is another. If you want low cost, low-to-medium performance, and probably not the best possible reliability, especially for heavy write loads, JFFS2 and friends will do just fine. If you want a real HDD replacement for non-embedded-systems, it's not even close to being the right solution. Which is why you don't see anybody trying to deploy flash-managing filesystems as HDD replacements.

      The controllers used in real SSDs are expensive enough that it would be a huge win if you could toss them and just use a flash FS. There are lots of very good reasons why this has not happened and will not happen. Take your head out of your butt and get some perspective, right now you're a classic example of how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

      (TRIM is not a sollution, it's a workaround)

      No, TRIM is an attempt to improve performance which has been oversold a bit in the popular computer press.

    28. Re:One Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      NAND flash degrades over time and has a limited amount of program/erase cycles.

      Spinning rust degrades over time and has a limited amount of write/erase cycles.

      Total bullshit. Please try to have a clue when you try to be clever. There is no wearout mechanism which eventually makes it impossible to alter magnetic domain orientations in spinning rust. You can keep doing that forever. In practice, the lifespan of a HDD is limited by mechanical failure or the death of the controller electronics.

      The difference between NAND flash and spinning rust is that it's faster. Early evolutions of NAND flash reached the limits of their write cycles therefore. Modern evolutions of NAND flash make it more durable and reliable than spinning rust in every instance - and the speed and storage density is just a bonus.

      Good god, you're clueless. Every evolution of NAND flash makes its durability and reliability worse, not better, due to some fundamental physics problems with NAND technology. The only thing keeping NAND viable is throwing ever-stronger ECC codes at the problem (decreasing the effective density gain from each process shrink by consuming more bits in error correction overhead). Write/erase cycles also keep going down, not up.

      And then there's the fun phenomenon called "read disturbance". If you haven't guessed just by reading the phrase, this means you can alter the state of a bit cell in the latest and greatest generation of NAND flash by reading it (or its neighbors) too many times. Whee!

      Don't confuse the application of stronger and higher overhead techniques for managing the problems with NAND with it being a super-memory with no flaws. It has a lot of issues.

    29. Re:One Problem by Pharmboy · · Score: 1

      3 or 4 GB of RAM on new systems? Seriously, why would you create a new system without being fully 64 bit and a minimum of 8mb of RAM, preferably in two slots with two more open? Not knocking your logic, just your implementation. History has shown this old man that RAM requirements go up faster than Moore's Law. 4GB of RAM is too low with Win7 aggressive caching, which is one of the very few advantages of it. Even the file servers (Linux) are using 24GB of ram so they can cache everything, and they were installed two years ago. 4GB just isn't enough for anything other than an email/web only laptop.

      --
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    30. Re:One Problem by Ant+P. · · Score: 1

      Because of this normal filesystems are used, that assume to be on spinning harddrives

      Worse still are cheap-ass SSDs that assume "normal" filesystems are being used, and corrupt your data if you aren't using windows.

    31. Re:One Problem by xouumalperxe · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not to mention what TFA neglects is the simple fact that one doesn't need as much memory as they do storage space so comparing the two? More than a little pointless.

      My interpretation of the article is as follows: In any given workload, you're likely to have a mixture of memory operations and disk operations. If, instead of putting all your money on RAM that will speed up your memory operations, you put part of it into an SSD that will speed up your disk operations, the overall performance for that workload will be better. Prefetching programs doesn't do nearly enough if the workload involves more disk activity than just loading the code.

      Not sure I agree with the article, but the point is a lot better than you were making out to be.

    32. Re:One Problem by Yvan256 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Care to tell us which flash storage cards (brand, capacity, name, etc) you tested which have safe internal management?

    33. Re:One Problem by Pyrion · · Score: 1

      Yeah, Linux won't touch swap unless it absolutely needs to, it'll exhaust physical ram first.

      --
      "There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell.
    34. Re:One Problem by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

      Are you implying that other operating systems don't prefer RAM over swap space? Who comes up with such silly architectures?

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    35. Re:One Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      "Spinning rust degrades over time and has a limited amount of write/erase cycles. "

      Um, neither is true? You're a moron. In the medical, clinical sense.

    36. Re:One Problem by rgviza · · Score: 1

      THIS!...

      Good post...

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    37. Re:One Problem by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Yeah but:
      1) SSDs cost a lot more - you can get fair sized RAID for the price of one SSD.
      2) SSD failure modes don't appear to be as graceful as they should be in theory - too often their failure mode is to become completely unaccessible. Whereas I've been able to recover some data from many failed HDDs,
      3) SSD failure modes are weird - they have a "time warp" failure (google it) - the drive apparently goes back to the state it say a few days ago but otherwise works as normal. That's not confidence inspiring, and can be worse than a complete failure in some cases - since you might not realize that the data is out of date.

      That said I am really tempted to buy an SSD anyway ;).

      --
    38. Re:One Problem by hairyfeet · · Score: 0

      Because I have found 8Gb for grandma is more than a little overkill? I have plenty of PCs being used for HTPCs right now with 4Gb of RAM and AMD quad cores and they are quite happy with them, they load fast, execute fast, and a pair of 2Gb DDR3 sticks are dirt cheap which means they can use the money saved for another Tb HDD which once they learn how to rip DVD to avi is quickly appreciated.

      So while I am using 64bit Win 7 on all new builds there just isn't a point ATM for over 4Gb on consumer gear. Windows 7 aggressive caching doesn't really help if they only run a handful of programs. Most are running FF or chrome, WMC with Netflix, WMP for media, and that's about it. Oh and whatever ripping program they like. That's it, that's all. And with a cheap but decent GPU (I've been using a lot of HD4830s lately, only $60 and the fat 256bit pipe makes for great media transcoding and actually plays games pretty well too if they get the itch) taking the load off there really isn't much point for more ATM.

      But when the average person is spending all their time watching movies or playing Farmville? 8Gb of RAM just isn't really needed. I'l agree for guys like me that do a lot of gaming and AV editing having an assload of RAM is a must, but for grandma and Joe construction worker? Not so much.

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    39. Re:One Problem by TheLink · · Score: 1

      To pick just one example, do you know of any CF cards which compress all data on the fly in order to increase effective flash lifespan by reducing the total amount of data written?

      You shouldn't be calling people morons "with shallow expertise", because if you actually understand how and why things break you would realize that your remark actually supports his point: which is all that fancy stuff makes it more likely for you to lose data.

      Or worse, lose data without realizing it, see this: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r25491097-Dell-Laptop-and-SSD-Time-warp-issue

      http://forum.notebookreview.com/alienware-m17x/552728-fresh-os-install-ocz-ssd-r3.html
      To quote:

      any firmware before 1.29 can result in you experiencing what OCZ refers to as "Time Warp" (you lose all info stored on drive since last boot - happens at random). 1.29 decreases likelihood of this happening, but does not eliminate the possibility.

      If you don't notice that the drive has reverted, you might have bigger problems than if the drive goes totally dead. e.g. If the drive is dead, you restore what you can from your backups, tell everyone that you have a problem etc, whereas if the drive reverts, you might send the wrong info to a customer, or commit partially out-of-date code to a repository.

      --
    40. Re:One Problem by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      You had a defective computer. If your computer was swapping enough to do that in 10 minutes to NAND flash, you were at the point where you clicked a tab in firefox and the whole window sat white for 3-4 minutes while paging. This is where you have 128MB RAM and 2GB swap and you're using 1.8 gigs total, actively.

    41. Re:One Problem by Predius · · Score: 1

      Unless you use any one of the various distros that have swappiness set to say... 60 like Ubuntu, in which case it will use swap even when NOT RAM constrained.

    42. Re:One Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ditto, please.

    43. Re:One Problem by Khyber · · Score: 1

      NAND? Replace RAM?

      Not until the read-writes are on the order of at least 5 magnitudes higher than they are now, and about 1/10th the access time of where they are now.

      --
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    44. Re:One Problem by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "Modern evolutions of NAND flash make it more durable and reliable than spinning rust in every instance"

      Except I have functional hard drives from 1980. Show me an SSD or NAND that's still going strong after that amount of time.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    45. Re:One Problem by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "NAND doesn't need power to maintain state"

      Electron leakage as you go lower in fab scale processes pretty much ensures that your statement is false.. This is why we're trying to move to OUM/OVM phase-change memory instead.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    46. Re:One Problem by jon3k · · Score: 1

      Which is relevant absolutely, but what if that's far longer than the expected life (or warranty) of the hardware it's in? Consumer laptops last what, maybe 3-5 years? 99% of consumers will never wear out MLC NAND in 3-5 years of normal, or even high, use of a laptop. So it's largely moot. I've been using SSDs for years now and I'm still waiting for all these problems the harbingers of doom have been espousing on slashdot the entire time. And I have some really early (first generation vertex) drives and I'm still waiting for my first problem.

    47. Re:One Problem by Vectormatic · · Score: 1

      Ah, a violation of the extended "dont drink and root" rule :)

      sleepiness and installing stuff don't mix ;)

      --
      People, what a bunch of bastards
    48. Re:One Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You need to go for the "Industrial" ones. They're about 4x as expensive. Usually I used "DOMs" (DiskOnModule) that plugged directly into an IDE.

      And JFFS2? Good lord, there are better ways of doing this. Trust me, I've got about 3 million boxes out there still running off flash, and we looked at JFFS2, and found one large problem: It's a tape-based system, so it reads the ENTIRE filesystem before anything else. That means that if you had a 64 MB distribution, and suddenly dropped a 1GB DOM in there, and grew the jffs2 to the entire size, you would end up with about 30min boot times.

      JFFS2. uggggg....

    49. Re:One Problem by d4fseeker · · Score: 1

      Hybrid sleep solves this issue without crippling my computer's speed back to the 90's, thank you.
      It first keeps a copy in RAM which has a sufficiently low power usage in suspend state to be more or less neglectable during the first hours,
      then it goes down to hibernate by first writing all of the contents to disk and killing the power. My laptops can remain multiple days in suspend state
      without completely depleting their battery, so thank you but no thanks for SSD.

    50. Re:One Problem by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2

      Well, I'd put the system on SSD, and my own data at HD. Having the system on SSD speeds up things most, because for typical uses of the computer, user data is rarely the bottleneck. Moreover, the system partition is not written to very often, thus it should take longer to wear out. Finally, if the system partition has a total failure, you don't even think about rescuing data from it anyway; you just install the system again on the replacement disk.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    51. Re:One Problem by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Maybe one way to improve SSD lifetime could be for the SSD to have an internal RAM cache. Writes would first go into cache RAM, and only get written to flash when either the OS explicitly requests it, or when it wasn't changed for some time (or some other indicator that there's no change to expect soon), or of course if cache is exhausted and you need to load another block there. Of course, you'd also have to store enough energy somewhere in the SSD that on power failure, the whole content of the cache could be written back to flash.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    52. Re:One Problem by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      I've yet to see a ROHS fail and I've got stuff that's ROHS compliant from ages ago ... my TV is from the early 90s and is a bubble tube, and all silver-tin.

    53. Re:One Problem by heathen_01 · · Score: 0

      You mustn't be using windows. The viruses writing to the system partition will wear it out quite quickly.

    54. Re:One Problem by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Might be related to this.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    55. Re:One Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I might add that this is the real reason apple doesn't add SD card slots to their devices. Consumer flash cards are /crap/ and can barely be relied upon to store big chunks of infrequently written data. (Not surprised that "professional" and "industrial" grade units are not much better.) That crap factor would reflect upon apple, so they opt out of it completely.

      Sure, you pay a premium for more flash in an iphone.. But it's fast, tested flash of a known good quality that's attached directly to a memory controller on your CPU and managed with a flash-optimized filesystem. Not some unknown n'th bin flash abstracted through another interface, and any number of unknown flash controllers.

    56. Re:One Problem by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      You mustn't be using windows. The viruses writing to the system partition will wear it out quite quickly.

      In that case, it should be considered a feature. You are required to regularly re-install a clean system. Moreover, you've got an incentive to protect yourself against viruses.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    57. Re:One Problem by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Oops, this post should have been a reply to that comment.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    58. Re:One Problem by gbutler69 · · Score: 1

      No, that really wouldn't work. Every "sleep" system I'm aware of doesn't work like that and can't. Before "sleeping", the system must put various devices into particular states and then, before waking, bring them back into the appropriate state. Think network connections, wireless, etc, etc.

      --
      Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
    59. Re:One Problem by mcavic · · Score: 1

      "An appropriate balance of NAND, DRAM, and an HDD yields superior performance per dollar to a simple DRAM/HDD system,"

      That statement can be simplified to read "NAND performs better than HDD". Duh.

    60. Re:One Problem by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      this should be able to be abstracted away from the OS completely, have a capacitor large enough to power the drive long enough to flush the ram on power failure shouldn't be all that much required due to speed and energy efficiency of SSDs.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    61. Re:One Problem by Korin43 · · Score: 1

      At least back in the XP days, swap space ("the paging file") was used heavily. Around the time 1 GB memory sticks became affordable, I found that turning off the paging file completely resulted in a massive speedup. I have no idea if recent Windows versions work the same way, but it wouldn't surprise me. Ubuntu (as mentioned below) has swappiness set very high by default (swappiness = how aggressively the OS tries to swap things out). I usually set it to something like 10 (don't swap unless memory is mostly full).

    62. Re:One Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NAND Flash will be but a memory in 2-3 years.

    63. Re:One Problem by sexconker · · Score: 1

      At least back in the XP days, swap space ("the paging file") was used heavily. Around the time 1 GB memory sticks became affordable, I found that turning off the paging file completely resulted in a massive speedup. I have no idea if recent Windows versions work the same way, but it wouldn't surprise me. Ubuntu (as mentioned below) has swappiness set very high by default (swappiness = how aggressively the OS tries to swap things out). I usually set it to something like 10 (don't swap unless memory is mostly full).

      Windows will write just about everything to swap. The writes should be cached / whatever so they don't get in the way of you doing shit.
      If you do run out of memory, then you don't have to wait for a bunch of shit to write to disk before you can toss shit out of RAM to make room for more shit.

    64. Re:One Problem by hazydave · · Score: 1

      Yup.. as low as 10,000 cycles for multi-level flash, and 100,000 cycles for single-level flash. Some are expected to last longer, but you pay for those, and of course, wear-leveling algorithms ensure that you don't see many failures, until it's all ready to fail.

      Plus, flash isn't a replacement for DRAM. Sure, they are one of two things you can spend money on, but DRAM is a couple of thousands of times faster than flash, flash is of course non-volatile. Maybe some day, we can dump them both and use crazy amounts of MRAM or FeRAM or something of that ilk.

      What they're really talking about in the article isn't flash vs. DRAM, it's the idea of adding flash as a read cache to an HDD. In this way, your most often read stuff will read at SDD speeds, without the cost of making the entire device SDD, and/or living with a tiny SDD (well, for some... my laptop has two 640GB HDDS). Again, nothing directly to do with RAM.

      In fact, they work nicely together. Flash replaces a hard disc drive -- you put an SDD in as your system drive, sure. That will speed up loads at least, maybe saves. But it's all pointless if the drive wears out in a month or two. Thus, to go along with this, you want enough DRAM so that you're not actually using much virtual data memory, and thus, not thrashing that SDD into oblivion.

      It's certainly true that it's pretty easy to buy enough DRAM for DRAM like things. It'll be cheaper to build an HDD cache in flash, and pretty efficient too, versus doing that in DRAM... largely because you're at the mercy of the SATA bus, which isn't remotely fast enough to justify DRAM. On the other hand, for about $50 or so, you get 8GB of DRAM these days, which is enough internal for nearly everyone not concerned with building large servers. I know this because it recently became not quite enough for me, so I ordered another 8GB. Sure, you can get 8GB of SDHC flash for $15, but the speed isn't comparable to a good SDD. And the only reason I needed more memory: editing panoramic photos, sets of 10-30, shot on a Canon 60D, converted from RAW to 48-bit TIFF. I use the same PC for electronics CAD, audio and video editing, programming, all the "regular" stuff, and this is the first time I came close to being short of DRAM.

      --
      -Dave Haynie
    65. Re:One Problem by Korin43 · · Score: 1

      At least back in the XP days, swap space ("the paging file") was used heavily. Around the time 1 GB memory sticks became affordable, I found that turning off the paging file completely resulted in a massive speedup. I have no idea if recent Windows versions work the same way, but it wouldn't surprise me. Ubuntu (as mentioned below) has swappiness set very high by default (swappiness = how aggressively the OS tries to swap things out). I usually set it to something like 10 (don't swap unless memory is mostly full).

      Windows will write just about everything to swap. The writes should be cached / whatever so they don't get in the way of you doing shit.
      If you do run out of memory, then you don't have to wait for a bunch of shit to write to disk before you can toss shit out of RAM to make room for more shit.

      The problem is if you don't run out of memory. On XP with 1 GB of ram, I never ran out of memory (until I installed World of Warcraft), but it was still swapping stuff out all the time, making random things like the start menu extremely laggy. On Linux you can tell it "hey I have lots of memory, stop swapping things out unless there's a *lot* of memory in use", but I'm not aware of any setting like that on Windows (if there is, please tell me so I can use it at work).

      I know that Windows uses a lot of memory for file cache, but I'd much rather have the programs I have open in memory than random files. Linux does file caching too but for some reason I've never encountered problems with it swapping programs out to make space for files. Might just be that I never run out of memory on Linux.

    66. Re:One Problem by WorBlux · · Score: 1

      What they are saying is one you get a certain amount of RAM (2-4 GB probably) adding a small NAND cache 8-16GB could add a lot to performance, for a very minimal cost. You will not see the complete death of DRAM soon, because SSD's at best hit the 500MB/s mark (250-300 MB/s is about the sweet spot.) My ram from six years ago beats that by a factor of 6, by current ram by a factor of twenty. Some of Intel's new transistors might provide a bandwidth three or four times my current RAM.

    67. Re:One Problem by rhook · · Score: 1

      If you're getting viruses on a modern version of Windows you are doing something wrong, especially if you're running 64-bit Windows 7. Viruses haven't been much of an issue since XP SP2, unless the user is dumb enough to click ok on every popup.

    68. Re:One Problem by rhook · · Score: 1

      Enterprise class SSDs already have capacitors to protect against data loss in the event of power failure.

    69. Re:One Problem by rhook · · Score: 1

      Write to it as often as RAM is written to and I guarantee an SSD will die within a month.

    70. Re:One Problem by aXis100 · · Score: 1

      You're missing the point of the article. Whe you have already built a system with a standard amount of RAM and a standard HDD, the next dollars you spend are better off on SSD than RAM.

      $100 might buy you an extra 4GB RAM which is great for superfetch, but the same dollars will buy a 32GB or 64GB SSD, which will improve your entire system partition.

    71. Re:One Problem by walshy007 · · Score: 1

      To pick just one example, do you know of any CF cards which compress all data on the fly in order to increase effective flash lifespan by reducing the total amount of data written? (Since the SSD controllers in question use hardware compression engines which can handle hundreds of megabytes per second throughput, this also has the nice side effect of increasing effective performance, unless you're storing incompressible data.)

      This should be the job of the os, not some buggy controller that can screw it up horrendously.

      Remove the 'smart' controllers that kill things, the os can know far more information about the drive and the data being written to it. The only extra feature that makes sense is to keep a map of how many times each sector has been written to on the disk in the smart data, so the os can read it upon initially booting so you don't lose record of things when switching operating systems.

    72. Re:One Problem by jon3k · · Score: 1

      You should consider reading the article. No one is suggesting that you replace DRAM with NAND.

    73. Re:One Problem by fatphil · · Score: 1

      What the heck are you gibbering about? I have in my hands a device (well, three different ones actually, but I can only hold one at a time) running linux, with only solid state storage, and I'm happily running swap on it. And it's been running happily for several years. You're clearly doing it wrong, there's nothing intrinsically bad about running swap on solid state storage.

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    74. Re:One Problem by Pharmboy · · Score: 1

      Part of my point was that going from 4 to 8 is cheap, and extends the period before you have to upgrade or replace the system. Most computers will outlive their performance usefulness before they break, and upping them to 8gb is the cheapest way to make sure you never have to crack the case to upgrade, for what, an extra $30 bucks?

      My opinion is NOT based on what you need TODAY, it is based on what you will need in 2+ years, and history shows you will need it. In particular, an emailer type machine should get 5 to 6 years if you choose good value components, and I will be damned if you won't need 8gb in 4 years.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    75. Re:One Problem by Jon+Harms · · Score: 1

      Wow... You have no idea about flash!

      Magnetic Storage:
      R/W Limit: Unlimited
      Reliability: High
      Density: Extremely High
      Bandwidth: Very High
      Random Access: Low

      SSD:
      R/W Limit: Moderate
      Reliability: Low
      Density: Very Low
      Bandwidth: Very High
      Random Access: Extremely High

      The user who posted about read disturbs and ecc sounds like he's actually read a few journal articles about flash design.

    76. Re:One Problem by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      While I would agree about future proofing it all comes down to a balancing act: More memory or a faster CPU? More HDD space or a discrete GPU?

      Most of my customers are working stiffs so a set price of $450-$550 is usually the order of the day and most would rather have a well balanced machine than to splurge on one section and come up short in another. For the price difference between 2Gb sticks and 4Gb sticks one can replace the IGP with a discrete that IMHO gives more bang for the buck today and is more noticeable than going from 4Gb to 8Gb.

      But in the end I try to explain the pros and cons of each and let the customer decide. With a fixed budget that includes paying me to build it there just isn't that "extra $30" lying around so most would rather have me drop in an HD4830 or go from 500Gb to 1Tb in HDD space. But I agree that if money isn't a problem more RAM is always of the good and on my $600+ builds 8Gb is the order of the day.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    77. Re:One Problem by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      If someone comes to me and says they want to spend $450-$550, I tell them I'd expect to replace it in 1-2 years. Maybe I've lost my builders touch, but I haven't seen any build at that price that's going to last.

      $1500 for a Lenovo S20 4105O3U + 12GB RAM from crucial and Win 7 Pro... That will go for 3-5 years at a minimum. . .

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
    78. Re:One Problem by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      The user who posted about read disturbs and ecc sounds like he's actually read a few journal articles about flash design.

      You don't need to read journal articles about flash design to know that write (erase, really) endurance drops every time there's a die shrink. Tech sites like Anandtech already report on that sort of stuff. The only reason it's not causing issues is because, as that user pointed out, we're throwing more and more error correction at it, and the higher densities we get from die shrinks mean writes are often spread out more (capacity tends to increase faster than write load).

    79. Re:One Problem by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      Sure, but the scales are completely different. Current flash chips can maintain information for years before leakage becomes a problem, while DRAM typically refreshes the data every 64ms or less. We're talking about 10 orders of magnitude difference here.

    80. Re:One Problem by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      Moreover, the system partition is not written to very often, thus it should take longer to wear out.

      That's now how SSDs work. Like most modern flash devices, they do wear leveling. They have no knowledge of the underlying partitions or filesystem structures. There is no physical "beginning" of the disk, data is written to random locations determined by the wear leveling algorithm, and the controller maps between the logical linear block layout to the in practice random data locations.

      If you take an empty SSD and you overwrite the same location on the disk over and over and over again, the SSD isn't going to overwrite the same page, it's going to do its damnedest to spread those writes out over the entire disk.

    81. Re:One Problem by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      Buggy OS, buggy controller firmware, the problem isn't going to go away just because you shift the problem from one piece of software to another.

      Besides that, flash is too varied for an OS to throw a one-size-fits-all at it. There are many different kinds of flash out there, and even different chips of the same kind can behave pretty differently.

    82. Re:One Problem by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      Good thing the Momentus XT isn't an SSD, then. It's a regular disk that uses a small amount of flash for read (and only read) caching. Writes (which are the problem here) aren't even touching the flash.

    83. Re:One Problem by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      Yup.. as low as 10,000 cycles for multi-level flash, and 100,000 cycles for single-level flash

      10k was for the MLC used in early SSDs. Intel claims 3,000 cycles for their 25nm flash. Toshiba seems to claim 1,400 for their 32nm MLC, but that might be a misinterpretation.

    84. Re:One Problem by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      That increases the time until wear out, but it still wears out the drive. The less you write, the less it wears out, no matter how much wear leveling the drive applies.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    85. Re:One Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone who writes about 200 8gb CF cards a day, I'm also very curious, please elucidate

    86. Re:One Problem by Pharmboy · · Score: 1

      Too small a budget. I just picked up several Dell boxes, i5-2400, 8gb ram (added 4 aftermarket), decent ati graphics (4650 i think, 1gb), 500gb hd, and a 23" monitor, for under 900 bucks. Was on sale, limited to 5, so I just made 2 orders in 2 days to get all 10. For most people, this will get them 5 years+ for all but hard core gaming. Trying to buy in the 500 range typically means built in graphics, modest ram and a lesser monitor. And the i5/2400 is impossible to beat when it comes to price/performance right now, for very little more than average.

      Of course, this is for work, where I like to get many systems the same, so if one or two dies in a few years, I can steal parts from other dead systems, as I need. I get your point about people not wanting to spend the money, but a system like I'm talking about is way cheaper in the long run.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    87. Re:One Problem by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      Yes, but what matters is how much you write to the drive in general, not one specific partition. My point was that even if your system partition is almost never written to on an SSD, you can still wear out the SSD (and the system partition, since the SSD doesn't have any concept of partitions) by writing data elsewhere.

      I get that you're saying that reducing the writes to the system partition benefits the drive in general by reducing writes, I'm just cautioning that the SSD doesn't see it as a reduction in writes to a specific partition but to the entire drive because it spreads writes over the whole drive anyhow.

    88. Re:One Problem by walshy007 · · Score: 1

      We can fix a buggy os, we cannot fix a buggy firmware.

      Besides that, flash is too varied for an OS to throw a one-size-fits-all at it. There are many different kinds of flash out there, and even different chips of the same kind can behave pretty differently.

      With the myriad of different chipsets having similar but ever so slightly different functions that the linux kernel supports... you think supporting different types of flash will be completely beyond it? seriously?

    89. Re:One Problem by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Well, if you read my original post again, I've said that I'd put the data partition on a HD, and the system partition on SSD. Of course it doesn't matter to the wear out of the SSD how much or how little I write to a partition on another drive.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    90. Re:One Problem by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      We can fix a buggy os, we cannot fix a buggy firmware.

      You can't. When you let the SSD's controller take care of it, any OS you might run on it will get a unified interface, and that controller will manage the entire drive. If you want the OS to handle it, you need to have a strict management standard that all operating systems, including those like Windows, equally support. If there's something wrong with the standard or the implementation of the standard for a closed-source OS, you may not even be able to fix the problem in open-source OS for fear of breaking things in other operating systems. It would be a huge mess.

      With the myriad of different chipsets having similar but ever so slightly different functions that the linux kernel supports... you think supporting different types of flash will be completely beyond it? seriously?

      Of course. What makes more sense for a vendor to do, implement their algorithms in firmware such that all operating systems are supported, or write drivers for every OS under the sun? Linux is virtually irrelevant in the markets that many SSD vendors are targeting.

    91. Re:One Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's two problems.

    92. Re:One Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "the same guy that recommends spending over $400 on a pair of headphones like he does."

      do it.

      if you enjoy music, use headphone semi-regularly and arent rough on them, invest in some good headphones. bought my grado rs2s 8 yrs ago and never looked back.

      i love watching peoples faces the first time they try my headphones. didnt know what they were missing.

    93. Re:One Problem by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      You've lost your touch mate. For $550 I can build a nice AMD quad with minimum 4Gb of RAM, TB HDD, DVD burner and Win 7 HP X64. That will easily last most average folks a decade and with a little forethought it will leave plenty of upgrade potential down the road. hell Tigerdirect sells a nice AMD quad kit for $250 after MIR!

      I think its just you are thinking folks will be like YOU and they ain't, not by a long shot. They won't be doing major compiles, or tons of video editing, or wanting to crank up the purty on a 50 inch widescreen. Most of the average folks out there want to play a few games, do their Facebook crap like Farmville, listen to music, watch movies, check their email, just basic everyday stuff ya know?

      If you DIY and are picky about part and price one can easily get a good box for that price that will last for years. I have computers I built 7+ years ago still in use, they just become "hand me downs" where they go from one relative to another.

      Recently the checkout girl at the local grocery store asked if I could look at a PC given to her. She looked hurt when I suddenly started laughing when we went to her car and she showed me it until I told her "Honey I'm just laughing because I built that machine nearly a decade ago out of a tons of parts and nicknamed it "Frankenputer"" which it still had on the back. I found out from her the thing had passed through nearly a dozen relatives before ending up hers. Since she didn't have much of nothing I sold her a late model P4, motherboard and RAM cheap, loaded it into old Frankenputer, and it is surfing Youtube and helping her kids do their homework to this very day.

      So I'd say your wrong, you CAN build a decent PC at that price. Sure it ain't gonna set any speed records but for the jobs most folks want a PC for? It'll last them for a minimum of 5-7 years, thanks to my "minimum triple core, 4Gb of RAM" rule on new builds. That kind of power is frankly overkill for someone like Sally Homemaker and Joe Construction worker.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    94. Re:One Problem by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Well one difference between us is I refuse to carry Intel in my shop since it came out they were bribing OEMs and rigging their compiler (which despite the AMD settlement they are STILL rigging their compiler, they just put a little FYI in the readme) and by going all AMD not only are my customers happy about the price but the performance is great, probably overkill for their needs.

      I also put my own money where my mouth is and built AMD for myself. I have a Deneb 925 2.8Ghz quad, 8Gb of DDR 2 RAM, an HD480 512Mb, 1.5Tb of HDDs, 2 burners, and Win 7 HP X64. All that cost me less than $700 after MIR and if I want more power later on I can drop in an X6 if I desire. Even when I slam the CPU for hours I never get above 130f, idle at 94f, and frankly the thing is faster than I am, with all my programs preloaded into memory thanks to Superfetch and launching instantly with a single click.

      So I wouldn't say that is too small a budget, simply that I'm not paying for bribery and marketing. When you figure in the cost of the boards you are paying a good 200%+ markup for Intel to gain on average 35% speed which frankly most folks will never ever notice. For the jobs Joe and Sally Average have for their PC frankly they won't be slamming the CPU anyway, much less hitting it hard enough to be able to tell in a double blind test which box is the Intel.

      Frankly for less than you spent I could have gone X6 and HD5770 GPUs and still probably had money left over. Nothing wrong with the Intel if you don't mind supporting market rigging but I've always tried to support the free market and outright bribery? Just a little too far in my book.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  2. I'm confused by jandrese · · Score: 1

    Last time I checked, DRAM was still an order of magnitude faster than NAND flash, so swapping out your memory for flash storage would seem to be insane to me. At first I thought it was going to be how replacing a spinning disk with a flash drive is a much more noticeable upgrade than going from 4GB to 8GB of memory, but the article seems to suggest that because the market dipped a bit, DRAM is going to die out entirely and we'll be using only NAND flash for all memory on the system.

    There would have to be some tremendous breakthroughs in speed, power, and especially reliability before I ever considered such a thing. It would be complete lunacy with today's technology.

    --

    I read the internet for the articles.
    1. Re:I'm confused by MrEricSir · · Score: 2

      You're missing the point:

      After reviewing a "wide range of DRAM and NAND configurations," as well as nearly 300 industry-standard PC benchmarks, the researchers concluded that even at today's prices, a dollar's worth of NAND flash improves PC performance more than adding a dollar's worth of DRAM.

      Nobody is talking about what's faster or cheaper. They're comparing apples and oranges -- and telling you which to buy.

      --
      There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
    2. Re:I'm confused by afidel · · Score: 2

      Well, I guess that's true to a point. For instance for my Oracle BI database server we put as many 8GB DIMM's as would fit into the system (at full speed) and the next biggest bang for the buck was using a 640GB MLC flash card from FusionIO, the card cost about as much as swapping the DIMM's for 16GB units but provided significantly more performance improvement than adding another 96GB of ram would have. Now if you told me to put 4 or 8GB of ram in the box and add flash I would laugh at you.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    3. Re:I'm confused by timeOday · · Score: 2
      No, they're rebutting the conventional wisdom that the most cost effective way to speed up a PC is by adding more RAM. According to their (unspecified) benchmarks, you get better bang for the buck using NAND to relieve pressure on the hard disk (since they're inherently horribly slow).

      Here's the crux:

      "A well-designed NAND/DRAM combination brings SSD-like performance to a system at little or no price increase over a standard system based on the conventional DRAM-plus-HDD platform."

      Obviously this is moot for a $2500 laptop with 8GB of ram, a big flash drive, and no hard drive. It sounds like they're arguing companies like Dell with, say, a $500 price point should start using some flash to augment the HDD even if they have to back off RAM to hit their price point.

    4. Re:I'm confused by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      The problem is like Chewbacca it makes no sense and I sure as hell ain't paying to read their report! Here is what we DO know: 1.-RAM is several orders of magnitude FASTER than NAND, 2.- most intelligent modern OSes do serious caching of the most used programs into RAM to seriously speed performance, 3.- 4-8Gb of RAM will allow the OS to prefetch pretty much everything you use on a daily basis and then some, while 4-8Gb of NAND? Kinda useless.

      In certain use cases and in certain use cases ONLY does having a MIXTURE of RAM and NAND make sense. In a mobile user's laptop, one that is constantly on the move? Makes sense. On a server where IOPS are the most important metric? makes sense. On a PC where there is only 2Gb of RAM? Does NOT make sense and would be better served by 4-8Gb of RAM which would be a hell of a lot cheaper than a SSD of any real size.

      Hell with all the crap they install on them and the size of cameras nowadays i find plenty of 200-300Gb HDD PCs being brought in to add bigger drives simply because they are overloaded, yet we are talking a cool $500+ to add a SSD of that size or larger easily. ATM unless you are a geek that know about installing to separate partitions so you can use a mixed drive setup, or as I said one of the above use cases SSD just doesn't make sense for the vast majority and trying to claim just because the price of RAM went up a bit suddenly SSDs, which are still frankly insanely priced and are still not really stable is suddenly the better deal? I gotta call bullshit.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    5. Re:I'm confused by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      4-8Gb of RAM will allow the OS to prefetch pretty much everything you use on a daily basis and then some, while 4-8Gb of NAND

      The first of these is only true in theory. You may only access 4-8GB of data per day, but predicting which 4-8GB that will be is hard. Operating systems get the low hanging fruit, but the difference in performance from disk caching hits diminishing returns after about 1GB. With 8GB, you're likely to have memory free, because the OS can't make good decisions about what to cache.

      The second half is completely missing the point made in the summary. 8GB of RAM may give more of a performance increase than 8GB of flash, but they're not the same price. You can get about 64GB of flash for the price of 8GB of laptop RAM, and 64GB of flash makes a much bigger difference to performance than 8GB of RAM.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    6. Re:I'm confused by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      and 64GB of flash makes a much bigger difference to performance than 8GB of RAM.

      except it doesn't. That's like saying 2TB of 5.25 Floppies make a bigger difference to performance than an 8MB HDD. Bigger storage space does not equal faster speed.

    7. Re:I'm confused by dayton967 · · Score: 1

      I think it's the articles problem, because it didn't go into details. But NAND Flash and DRAM are Apples to Oranges. You couldn't run NAND Flash as RAM because it must transfer to RAM before execution. The more likely is the mixture of the 2, and it might be something as simple as say an 80G SSD for the OS and Swap, or even a smaller NAND SSD for just the Swap.

    8. Re:I'm confused by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      except it doesn't.

      Yes it does, that's the entire point of the conclusion of the study in TFA. Beyond a certain point, RAM only makes your computer faster because it's being used as disk cache. Cache quickly hits diminishing returns, and beyond that point making the persistent storage faster is a more noticeable improvement. If you can add a big enough flash drive that almost everything the user ever touches will be in flash, then this gives a much bigger improvement than a small increase in cache. A few disk cache misses can cause user-visible stuttering. If they can be serviced from flash instead of from the disk, the user probably won't notice.

      That's like saying 2TB of 5.25 Floppies make a bigger difference to performance than an 8MB HDD. Bigger storage space does not equal faster speed.

      No, it's like saying that an 8MB hard disk and 1MB of RAM makes the machine faster than 2MB of RAM and a pile of floppies. Which, oddly enough, is also true.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    9. Re:I'm confused by rpresser · · Score: 1

      Cutting off your own foot with an axe and cauterizing the wound is more cost effective than going to a doctor and having your diabetes treated for 30 years. Guess which one I'm picking.

    10. Re:I'm confused by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      You could have used a battery-backed RAM IDE drive (slots into the PCI slot, contains RAM and a battery), but that's only really a good idea for temp space, and most databases won't fully-journal to a separate temporary space. It's a pity, because doing 32 or 64GB on RAM would be a huge performance boost, but way too much to keep in risk of data loss.

  3. BS Article by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

    The article gives zero useful information and a link where you can buy the actual study. What was the pricing used for the comparison of $1 dram versus $1 nand? Surely this is OS dependent as well.

    1. Re:BS Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It is. Sounds like they haven't taken SSD wear into account. Windows' "swap long before I've run out of physical RAM" behaviour would kill an SSD long before any other OS would.

    2. Re:BS Article by Required+Snark · · Score: 2
      Does this take into account the user software profile? Somehow I doubt that trading NAND for DRAM will give you muct help when you are running a lot of CGI rendering or PhotoShop code. Maybe there would be a benefit if you are just running a browser, but even that sounds a bit off base to me.

      Who do they expect to buy this study? It has a rotten order about it...

      --
      Why is Snark Required?
    3. Re:BS Article by elashish14 · · Score: 1

      FTA :

      After reviewing a "wide range of DRAM and NAND configurations," as well as nearly 300 industry-standard PC benchmarks, the researchers concluded that even at today's prices, a dollar's worth of NAND flash improves PC performance more than adding a dollar's worth of DRAM.

      How in hell's name do they conclude this? Do they extrapolate from zero or something? I mean, if your machine starts out with say, 2-4GB of RAM, which is usually enough for running most of your applications (minus cache), what do you think is gonna make more of a difference? Adding RAM will just cause the OS to cache more, so you're just limited by HDD-DRAM speed. On the other hand, if you stick a NAND in there, you'll still be caching but at the speed of NAND-DRAM, which is considerably faster, plus stored permanently over power cycles. Of course, I'm sure the authors failed to take into consideration the long-term durability and performance issues of NAND which makes these dollar figures totally worthless.

      All we're seeing is a finer segmentation of memory/storage hierarchy, but DRAM and NAND still have entirely different niches, though NAND tends to encroach on both of its sides. The take-home message is that if you have a lot of RAM, adding more ain't gonna help cause you're just throttled by your HD transfer speeds and the efficiency of your caching algorithms - so just buy a nice, reasonably speedy 8-16GB SSD and put all your system files on that.

      Any fool could tell you this without needing to read this stupid report. DRAM isn't going anywhere. Of course it will devalue slightly, but there will always be an incentive for computers to have more, even if the gains are slim - NAND can't change that in any way.

      --
      I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
    4. Re:BS Article by Skuto · · Score: 1

      People are using Windows on SSD's just fine. Windows 7 actually disables the behavior you speak of on an SSD, anyway.

      Most SSD's seem to die from controller failure way before the actual flash cells are dead.

    5. Re:BS Article by yacc143 · · Score: 1

      Well, it's obvious, that Flash is superior swap:

      -) it's random access. The huge impact of seeking (measured in ms) is gone.
      -) it's relatively fast at reading/writing too, compared to normal hdd.

      So yes, it's obvious that adding flash for swap makes sense.

      Now if flash-swap can substitute RAM depends naturally a little bit on the workload.

      But 2x4GB DIMMs cost your around 44€ here around. A small SSD in 230-270MB/s range costs 62€ for 32GB.

      So you get about 2.8x as much "capacity" for SSD compared to RAM, per monetary unit.

      Ah, one important point, most motherboards are limited to at most 16GB RAM in practice (4 DIMM slots), and many users might have a setup where they cannot add RAM without at least throwing away some (4x2GB DIMMs is a popular setup for 8GB some time ago, implies that to upgrade to 16GB you need to replace the complete memory). SATA connectors are usually not as scarce, plus you can stuff 300GB SSD swap into a common PC, while anything more than 16GB will take you into the realm of expensive server/workstation motherboards.

      So the benefits for SSD swap are:
      -) it's much better swap than hdd.
      -) it allows to run workloads that need more than 16GB RAM neatly. (it's more than a magnitude faster than hdd, and it's random access, which makes it many magnitudes better in that discipline. Actually, with highend SSDs you can get into a range of being only about a magnitude slower than RAM)

      The benefits of RAM OTOH.
      -) it's directly addressable, it's faster, it's RAM.
      -) it's clearly faster than SSD swap, if you can get enough RAM into the box to run your job.

      yacc

    6. Re:BS Article by yacc143 · · Score: 1

      Okay, have anyone here experienced flash wear out? Hmmm, no hands raised. Performance issues with modern OS and modern (as in last year introduced stuff) SSD? No hands again.

      It's absolutely correct, that flash can wear out. Flash as in flash memory cells. Modern SSDs have quite a bit of controller logic to handle this. Plus replacement blocks. So yes, if you use it extremely intensively, e.g. as swap, SSD may (or not) give up after 2 years or so. Hint: I'm used to swapping hdds once per year, to avoid data loss. Wonder where the durability problem of flash is?

    7. Re:BS Article by gmack · · Score: 1

      Caching more is pointless since it only caches when you load things the first time. Adding a 32 GB SSD as an OS drive did more to accelerate my system than going from 4 GB to 8 GB RAM did. For desktop use where each app load will pull in a ton of libraries from all over the drive it is ideal and at my usage pattern it will be a good 10 years before I even start to see the drive wear out.

      Details: 8 GB RAM, 32 GB SSD for OS and applications, 1 TB for data.

    8. Re:BS Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps it'd be pruident if you ask a question to actually let people answer it, you'll come off sounding less like a pompous, presumptuous dickhole.

    9. Re:BS Article by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "Okay, have anyone here experienced flash wear out? Hmmm, no hands raised."

      That's because you answered yourself without letting anyone speak up, you fucking moron.

      I've had multiple flash types fail miserably on me.

      Consider this a big raised hand plus a slap to your ignorant mouth.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    10. Re:BS Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're swapping HDDs once per year your loosing 3/4 of the MTBF on those drives. HDD normally last at least four years before you start seeing sector issues. My drives have always lasted far longer (6-8 years) as I turn the computer off when it's not being used.

  4. Missing quote by DigiShaman · · Score: 2

    "An appropriate balance of NAND, DRAM, and an HDD yields superior performance per dollar to a simple DRAM/HDD system,"

    Basically, TFA is saying that it will be awhile before we go back to a unified cache that's both RAM and storage (like core memory). Need more RAM, shrink the drive partition. Need more file storage, sacrifice RAM. It all sounds good in theory, but bus speeds and CPU technology change rapidly. I seriously doubt they can create a standardized I/O bus for removable NAND based storage devices and still keep up with future performance demands.

    --
    Life is not for the lazy.
    1. Re:Missing quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I seriously doubt they can create a standardized I/O bus for removable NAND based storage devices and still keep up with future performance demands.

      Basically they did a study, and buying an SSD improves performance per dollar in a system with DRAM and HDD already in it. Hardly groundbreaking imo.

    2. Re:Missing quote by kaizokuace · · Score: 1

      wasn't that the potential for memristor technology if that ever pans out? Except its storage, RAM and logic?

      --
      Balderdash!
    3. Re:Missing quote by blind+biker · · Score: 1

      Basically, TFA is saying that it will be awhile before we go back to a unified cache that's both RAM and storage (like core memory).

      Actually, core memory was used exactly as RAM and not as storage, even though it did have data retention capability (obviously, as it was based on ferromagnetic effects). The actual storage was done on mechanical devices. Heck, back in those days, you had some fast rotating drums with lots of reading heads - a hard drive of sorts, except that it had fast data access and throughput, but limited capacity. Even this, seemingly hard-drive-like device, was used as RAM only.

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    4. Re:Missing quote by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      You may be thinking of thinking of MRAM or its cousin RRAM.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
  5. NSFW by MrEricSir · · Score: 1

    No, but they're great in iPads.

    --
    There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
  6. Correlation is not causation by scdeimos · · Score: 2

    The effects of NAND flash adoption are already being felt in the DRAM market, as revenue in 2011 is expected to decline 11.8%.

    The former is not the cause of the latter. The rise of mobile devices with less DRAM in them is more likely to blame: less people are buying new PCs and Laptops when their phones and/or tablets can do everything they need.

    1. Re:Correlation is not causation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is also because of a bubble of people buying computers in 2009/2010. The revenue is more than 5 mil than in 2009.

      There is a reason why flash is not used as system memory except in mobile devices - it is S L O W ! !
      It will most likely replace spinning HDD's eventually, but not it won't touch system ram for a long, long, time.

      This whole article is a whole load of crap designed to spread FUD and to get people to buy a report online that says you should use rapidboost on a pc or SSD's, and that flash is is the future for all.

      Seriously, this is for a computer magazine(supposedly by a tech), been slashdotted, and no-one has picked up on the tech issues and flamed to oblivion??

    2. Re:Correlation is not causation by r_jensen11 · · Score: 1

      The rise of mobile devices with less DRAM in them is more likely to blame: less people are buying new PCs and Laptops when their phones and/or tablets can do everything they need.

      The more likely theory is that computers continue to live longer and have reached the point of "good enough" that end users do not feel compelled to replace a working, 6 year old computer.

  7. Huh? by LongearedBat · · Score: 1

    This seems to have nothing to do with topic. Am I completely whooshed, or is this a trick to get YouTube hits?

    1. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It's still nice - spam but at least a good one (a change from disguised/disgusting goatse).

      (another AC, still offtopic, but resenting a Flamebite mod)

    2. Re:Huh? by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Its just spam used to get fake account to appear less fake, as are almost all first posts.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    3. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What fake account?

    4. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LongearedBat

    5. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wat

    6. Re:Huh? by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't know. IU assume all such posts are goatse and don't bother to go there.

      That well is poisoned, and I don't trust it ever.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  8. article and post - sucks by postmortem · · Score: 1

    Holy confusion. From reading the slashdot post you would think that NAND is faster than DDR3...Neither post or article are explaining this in simple terms: if you replace/augment your HDD with SDD you get more performance boost that any other upgrade would for $

    1. Re:article and post - sucks by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      And that is a false statement.

      At least some times.

      Its also true sometimes.

      Either way, both the summary and the article are ignorant, poorly written amateur pieces written by someone who probably just learned what flash is and that SSDs exist by the looks of it.

      If I boot my system and run entirely from ram, because thats the way my workload works ... NAND is going to do me no good. My little app spends its time doing nbody physics simulations via opencl ...

      However, if I do a lot of random file IO and spend most of my time reading/writing data to the disk rather than performing raw calculations, then disk IO speed matters more. Say ... like my DB server.

      There is no magic bullet, pretending there is ... is retarded.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  9. A bit confusing by m.dillon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think all they mean is that dram isn't really all that cost effective as a data cache. For data that one intends to export out the network. Storing that data on a SSD, assuming it's a relatively static data set (which most is), uses far less power and costs less than purchasing an equivalent amount of DRAM (and the much larger mobo required to hold that DRAM). The access times are plenty fast enough to still saturate the network. That's all. Not rocket science.

    This has been known for several years. Replicate a small server with 8-16G of ram + a 160G SSD + a 2TB HDD sits right on the sweet spot. In fact, even 4G of ram would probably be fine. The idea is not to replace your hard drive but instead to insert another layer of cheap caching to avoid having to maintain a complex, expensive, power hungry HDD storage system just to get better throughput.

    -Matt

    1. Re:A bit confusing by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      This has been known for several years. Replicate a small server with 8-16G of ram + a 160G SSD + a 2TB HDD sits right on the sweet spot. In fact, even 4G of ram would probably be fine. The idea is not to replace your hard drive but instead to insert another layer of cheap caching to avoid having to maintain a complex, expensive, power hungry HDD storage system just to get better throughput.

      Wow, did you really just make such a silly statement?

      I expected far better out of someone like you.

      Hits the sweet spot for what? Something that easily fits its working set into 8-16G of ram? Sure. But the SSD is entirely unneeded in that situation too probably, but oh hey, you might boot an extra second or two faster. No, I'm not wrong, you and I just have entirely different ideas about what we're trying to do with that machine. I have a customer firewall that needs not an SSD and 2TB drive, it net boots. It needs massive amounts of ram for the huge state tables it maintains, but there is 0 disk IO on the machine after boot. Adding an SSD and standard HD to it would be a waste of money and additional points of failure.

      This whole discussion is silly, it assumes that there is 'a better way to do it every time', which both you, and the article seem to not understand is utterly wrong.

      Next you'll try to tell us what the answer is to 'whats the best possible computer configuration?' or 'the best programming language is always XXX'.

      You of all people should know better than to make such silly blanket statements. Its mind boggling that someone who plays with VMM code for fun would be so silly. Did someone hack your account? I had to check at least 3 times to verify that you are the same Matt Dillion that I'm thinking of.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    2. Re:A bit confusing by Skuto · · Score: 1

      Woosh!

      Hits the sweet spot for what?

      The very first lines of the post you're criticizing describe the use case:

      I think all they mean is that dram isn't really all that cost effective as a data cache. For data that one intends to export out the network.

      Matt's point explained succinctly: SSD speeds are faster than network speeds. SSD cost per Gb is less than RAM cost per Gb. Ergo, SSD are a more cost-effective cache, because the extra speed from RAM is useless.

      A firewall clearly doesn't fit the "data that one intends to export out the network" use case.

    3. Re:A bit confusing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Wow, did you really just make such a silly statement?
      > I expected far better out of someone like you.

      Pedantic and rude much? Thanks for reenforcing the stereotype.

      > > dram isn't really all that cost effective as a data cache for data that one intends to export out the network

      That's what he said. Seems like everyone got it but you :)

  10. wow, people are finally catching on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've been telling people this ever since SSD drives came out. A system with 2GB of DRAM and an SSD drive will easily outperform a system with 8GB of DRAM with a traditional Hard Drive in every benchmark that matters to the average user. It'll boot far, far faster, programs will load instantly, defrag's are a thing of the past, virus scans take mere seconds instead of hours, and by the time your SSD drive is used up, you probably need a new computer anyways.

    Now mix two Corsair SSD drives in RAID 0 like i've done for the past year along with 4GB of DRAM and the PC absolutely screams, there is no comparison, none whatsoever between traditional hard drives and SSD drives. Even (6) 15k RPM SCSI drives in stripe RAID can't keep up with the I/O of 1 SSD.

    1. Re:wow, people are finally catching on by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      I've been telling people this ever since SSD drives came out. A system with 2GB of DRAM and an SSD drive will easily outperform a system with 8GB of DRAM with a traditional Hard Drive in every benchmark that matters to the average user. It'll boot far, far faster, programs will load instantly, defrag's are a thing of the past, virus scans take mere seconds instead of hours, and by the time your SSD drive is used up, you probably need a new computer anyways

      Unless you need to use 8GB of RAM to complete your work. At which point your totally screwed. I'm pretty sure using an MLC SSD as virtual memory at this scale voids your warranty.

      Now mix two Corsair SSD drives in RAID 0 like i've done for the past year along with 4GB of DRAM and the PC absolutely screams, there is no comparison, none whatsoever between traditional hard drives and SSD drives. Even (6) 15k RPM SCSI drives in stripe RAID can't keep up with the I/O of 1 SSD.

      A pair of mirrored 7200 RPM disk drives with 32 GB of RAM and a warm cache runs circles around your setup. It would also be more reliable, cheaper and provide 10x the storage capacity.

    2. Re:wow, people are finally catching on by Skuto · · Score: 1

      A pair of mirrored 7200 RPM disk drives with 32 GB of RAM and a warm cache runs circles around your setup. It would also be more reliable, cheaper and provide 10x the storage capacity.

      Depends entirely on the workload. The HD drives will lose if:

      a) The working set exceeds 32GB. If the accesses are random, they will lose by 2-3 orders of magnitude.
      b) Whenever there is a need to commit or sync the writes to disk. On a normal system, that will happen every few seconds. If you disable that, your reliability argument is gone.

    3. Re:wow, people are finally catching on by gilesjuk · · Score: 1

      I think that's an admission that modern software is too bloated and virtual memory on a computer kills performance.

    4. Re:wow, people are finally catching on by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      Depends entirely on the workload. The HD drives will lose if:

      a) The working set exceeds 32GB. If the accesses are random, they will lose by 2-3 orders of magnitude.

      If the working set exceeds 32GB would you expect the system with only 4GB of memory to have a chance? I'm sure you could think about it for a while and dream up a mythical workload with just the right characteristics to make it work.. for a few hours anyway until all the oxide on the flash gates is gone.

      8GB ram = $50.

      b) Whenever there is a need to commit or sync the writes to disk. On a normal system, that will happen every few seconds. If you disable that, your reliability argument is gone

      I was thinking more in terms of storage reliability. When SSDs fail they more often fail specatucularly with no warning. RAID0 is less reliable than single disk. A failure of any disk means the entire array is unusable.

      In terms of flush I would never advocate disabling writes to persistant storage under any circumstance. A performant system would coalesce as many operations into a transaction as reasonable to minimize the need for excessive synchronization.

  11. Apples & pineapples by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since a Cesarean is a lot less expensive than a heart bypass operation, expect a lot of heart patients to visit OBGYNs instead of heart specialists

    Have the geniuses who put this report together considered the fact that the architecture of NAND flash has remained largely unchanged since its original definition, whereas DRAM has undergone several generational changes in architecture, starting from asynchronous DRAM to EDO-DRAM to SDRAM to DDR1 to DDR2 to now DDR3? A lot more techniques have been incorporated to make these faster and lower power, while struggling on the cost front. Had NAND undergone all this, they too wouldn't be any cheaper than DRAM. Besides, these prices are more often a function of supply/demand, and sometimes, you have fabs switching b/w these products depending on their margins.

    There have been some moves towards incorporating some of these interfaces, such as DDR, in flash, but that's been happening in NOR flash, which is completely different from NAND not only architecture wise, but also cost wise. Usually, when that's happened, it has been for the sake of eliminating shadow RAM (usually SRAM) that is needed to feed the processor data at a rate that standard mode flash cannot deliver. The calculation here is that the extra cost of these performance enhancement features is less than the cost of the RAM that's being replaced, or else, what good is it?

    In theory, the ideal memory is that which would be really fast in both reading & writing (like RAM), non-volatile (like flash), low power consumption, capable of packing really high density on a die, and extremely low $/GB ratio. Since no type of memory satisfies all these, you have things like SRAM, DRAM, NAND flash, NOR flash and some variations. Each has its own importance, and the main importance of NAND flash has always been mass data storage. DRAM, otoh, is an external cache memory to a processor. That's a role that simply can not be fulfilled by NAND flash. Battery backed DRAM can, in some applications, substitute flash if those read/write times are more important than the cost of the whole thing.

    If the DRAM market has been feeling a pinch, it ain't, and cannot be b'cos of NAND flash, but rather, b'cos memory prices across the board have always been under pressure (except during shortages). Sometimes, it's due to fabs switching b/w DRAM and NAND depending on which is more profitable @ any given time. But projecting the business decisions of manufacturers on to their customers, whose needs for these different products vary, and are by no means interchangeable, is a ludicrous assertion to make.

  12. Caching disk data in Flash instead of DRAM by billstewart · · Score: 1

    I suspect that what they're talking about is the effect of caching data from your disk drives in Flash instead of DRAM, and also letting you swap data out of DRAM into Flash instead of disk. Flash is cheap enough that for typical applications, you can cache most of your active data there, not having to wait for rotating machinery.

    Windows 7 is supposed to have some feature that manages this in an intelligent way - so you can speed up your machine for a year or so by adding a $10-20 memory stick. (I'm not running Win7, so I haven't tried it - but my laptop has an SD card slot, which would let me leave a card in there full time, without it sticking out like a USB stick.)

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    1. Re:Caching disk data in Flash instead of DRAM by bemymonkey · · Score: 1

      "Windows 7 is supposed to have some feature that manages this in an intelligent way - so you can speed up your machine for a year or so by adding a $10-20 memory stick. (I'm not running Win7, so I haven't tried it - but my laptop has an SD card slot, which would let me leave a card in there full time, without it sticking out like a USB stick.)"

      I've tried it on multiple systems, with fast USB sticks - Superfetch is much faster and more efficient. Only problem there: Many of the current generation (Sandy Bridge) laptop chips only seem to support 8GB of RAM, with the top end models (mostly quad cores) maxing out at 16GB.

  13. NAND Flash worse the DRAM by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

    Is the assertion really hybrid hard disks and turbo memory are having a noticable negative effect on the DRAM market?

    Trying to imply a relationship between two markets by realitive growth is especially rediculous considering explosion of the smart phone market which relies entirely on flash.

    The only thing more rediculous about TFA is the idea NAND is in any way a suitable replacement for DRAM.

    1. Re:NAND Flash worse the DRAM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the long term, it could be. I could see portable devices and eventually even desktops/servers moving to a model where there's a limited pool of very fast DRAM for truly ephemeral stuff (like trashable caches and indexes, etc that the OS maintains), and a large amount of NAND being used as persistent storage (both for the filesystem *and* as a persistent area of virtual memory for user processes and the kernel to use, allowing super low power sleep states that can wake instantly).

  14. Server market by Torodung · · Score: 1

    I see this article as being myopically focused upon "main memory in portable end-user devices."

    DRAM is going to stay vital for at least the server market, and I would guess the desktop market too (for as long as desktops last). Your iPad 3, maybe they have a point, but server apps would work current NAND into an early grave. The cost savings would be greatly offset by the service outages.

    And since "the Cloud" is the new big thing, that means that DRAM is going to be around for a while. I don't see how the marginalization of the desktop is going to also kill the server market. The death of the PC? I'll buy that. But it's not going to kill DRAM because too many other platforms use it.

    Now, if we ignore all those servers and just look at the magical end-user devices, well, that would be totally daft. Those devices aren't worth spit without something storing and delivering content to them. That something is an actual computer, rather than just a device, and it can't be using NAND for its main memory.

    IMO, anyone who is doing actual computing is going to be using DRAM for the foreseeable future.

  15. LESS DRAM != Performance hike by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, reducing RAM never results in increased performance, since the processor is going to depend only on RAM for memory access. You have a memory hierarchy whereby data from HDD/SSD will be moved to DRAM, data from DRAM to the CPU cache, and data from CPU cache to its internal registers. The CPU will never access data directly from SSD, which has the identical interface to HDD*. So altering the density of the RAM will have a negative performance impact, unless the system itself is doing maximum utilization @ 2GB and doesn't need the extra 6GB.

    The only thing that will be faster will be the data transfer b/w SSD and DRAM, as opposed to HDD and DRAM. That performance improvement does allow less DRAM to be used, but if less DRAM is used, it has a negative effect on the CPU, which is more likely to encounter a miss while fetching data from DRAM.

    *Note I'm talking here about SSDs w/ SATA/PATA interfaces, not the ones that are on the PCI-X bus.

  16. die from controller failure? by reiisi · · Score: 1

    Why should the controller fail, especially, why should the controller fail before the flash?

    --
    Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
    1. Re:die from controller failure? by Skuto · · Score: 2

      You have to ask the makers of the devices, but if I have to guess: the flash cells are designed by the top engineers of each fab+their partners and go through very extensive testing and validation cycles. The controllers are a complicated electronic designed for maximum speed by the lowest bidder and rushed to the market, and which additionally has to interact with similarly designed devices.

      Human failure will kill the devices way before low-level physics will.

    2. Re:die from controller failure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bcos they are the ones who translate slow data transfers to & from the flash to faster data transfers from & to the host. Flash read & write times are typically slow, and that's not the part that will cause a controller to fail. A controller, over time, is more likely to fail due to the high speed data transfers to and from the CPU of the host system.

    3. Re:die from controller failure? by daid303 · · Score: 1

      Because it's badly designed. Or more, it's designed for speed, not data safety. Read that again, SSD is designed to give you data fast, not to give you the right data all the time. The controllers need to account for wear-leveling and shifting around data so it uses less erase blocks. (A sector on a spinning harddisk is 512bytes, an erase block on a flash chip can be as large as 128kb)

      The controller needs to maintain internal management of the flash layout. A virtual mapping so to say. 1 error in this mapping and your drive is junk. SD, compact flash, USB flash drives all show this problem. And there are only a few manufacturers have products that guarantee the safety of your data, and you pay the top price. (600 euro for an industrial grade CF card of 32GB) just having an "industrial grade" device doesn't guarantee anything, I have a few broken SD cards on my desk to prove it. So far CF is the only thing we found to be really safe, for a price, from the right manufacturer.

      I won't trust my data to flash until we can access the raw flash and use something like JFFS2 or UBIFS.

  17. Hasn't learned what flash is, maybe? by reiisi · · Score: 1

    I'm more inclined to think the author has just learned what RAM is and doesn't yet understand the difference between flash RAM and dRAM.

    --
    Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
  18. Pirates and Global warming by drolli · · Score: 1

    If SSDs appear and DRAM goes down it could aso be that there are now more subnotebooks or ultraportibles in which DRAM is a power consumer and HDs are too big? It could be that MS, under the pressure of the first netbook wave which contained linux has shown reason and put out Windows 7 in opions which allow to run it on normal machines. I mean. Just thinking.

    I personally dont see Flash replacing DRAM soon. I see that DRAM memories stop to grow for other reasons.

    Let me say it that way round: i see that my PCs DRAM in 2000 was 128 times more than in 1990 and i see that until 2010 it has only grown by 16 times, nevertheless if the machine contains SSD or HDD.

  19. They should make a mini-PCIe device for laptops by Animal+Farm+Pig · · Score: 1

    It would be a couple GB of flash that is accessible to the OS as a block device. Then, let the OS use it for paging and for caching of frequently access files or blocks.

    There should be a branding campaign so that consumers know that it is extra memory that will speed up their machine. Call it something like "turbo memory."

    1. Re:They should make a mini-PCIe device for laptops by gilesjuk · · Score: 1

      It exists, it's called Thunderbolt.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbolt_(interface)

      It's a combination of displayport and PCIe.

    2. Re:They should make a mini-PCIe device for laptops by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      They should make a mini-PCIe device for laptops

      They do. Runcore make a 128GB mini-pcie SSD. I have one. It is very nice.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    3. Re:They should make a mini-PCIe device for laptops by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      It exists, it's called Thunderbolt.

      Nope: mini-pcie is a different standard (also wire compatible with PCIe) designed for internal usage in small form factor devices. It's much more suitable for a laptop SSD than thunderbolt.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  20. SSD ReadyBoost ? by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

    I'm assuming MS is keeping an SSD version of ReadyBoost as a Windows 8 "new feature". This should offer a very good price/performance ratio.

    --
    The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    1. Re:SSD ReadyBoost ? by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      I think there's a limit to how big your readyboost cache canbe before it starts to degrade performance - if you're reading all the time, then it's fine, but when you start to write you have to write to both your SSD and the backing store or invalidate the cached data you've just modified.

      Besides, a USB flash drive comes in sizes up to 128Gb, and they're a lot cheaper than SSDs. If you have a SSD, install it as a drive!

    2. Re:SSD ReadyBoost ? by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

      I was thinking, indeed, of a very small SSD delivering most of the performance of a full-size one, at a fraction of the cost. Something along the lines of 80% of the performance for 20% of the size, and cost.

      I'm trying out USB3 readyboost, 7 seems to grab 4GB max.

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    3. Re:SSD ReadyBoost ? by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      16GB of DRAM is down to $100... buy that, and turn off Windows paging altogether, as it would be unnecessary with that much RAM.

    4. Re:SSD ReadyBoost ? by Skuto · · Score: 1

      ReadyBoost has nothing to do with paging.

  21. No kidding by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It is far, FAR more important for your computer to have enough RAM than to replace a HDD with an SSD. At this point (and probably for a long time) flash is not replacing DRAM. You need to have RAM in your system for it to work. Flash replaces hard disks.

    Well cool, HDDs are by far the slowest component these days. SSDs are have somewhere in the range of 2-5x the transfer rate they do and more importantly are an order of magnitude or more faster on access.

    Well that still is no comparison to DRAM. DDR3 is 40x the transfer rate of even fast SSDs and about 4-5 orders of magnitude less access time. So you can't just have flash, at least not if you want a nice n' fast CPU.

    Now in terms of practical usage I find RAM is way, WAY more important. If you don't have enough, some programs will just flat out not run. If your system is starved, paging kills the performance, even with an SSD handling the paging. Knocking in a good amount of RAM is the #1 thing you can do to keep your system running well and it is damn cheap.

    SSDs improve responsiveness, don't get me wrong. I love mine and I'm happy to have them (though to be fair I wasn't willing to get them until I saw some on sale for $200 for 256GB). However it is a more minor improvement than having a system with plenty of RAM or a good CPU. I do notice some slowness to my non-SSD work system, but not much.

    The other problem is even though flash is cheaper per GB ($2ish per GB as opposed to more like $9ish for DRAM) you need more disk space than memory. My laptop has what I consider a reasonable amount of both, that is 4GB of RAM and 256GB of SSD. My desktop has a ton of RAM, 16GB, and a moderate amount of SSD, 512GB. So the SSDs cost me a hell of a lot more, despite their lower per unit cost. I could easily recommend a 4GB or more RAM upgrade to anyone, I couldn't recommend an SSD big enough to hold a good amount of stuff.

    Pretty much I only recommend SSDs if you've already maxed out your RAM. Spend your money on that first, then if you are still willing to bear the cost of an SSD, go ahead.

    In that vein, I noticed more improvement on my laptop than on my desktop. No small part of that is likely the RAM. The desktop has RAM to spare, it can cache a ton of stuff. The laptop is not starved for RAM, but not does it have a massive surplus. The base usage on the system is about 1.5GB for OS and background services. Gives it maybe 2.5GB for caching when nothing else is running. Hence the SSD helps more.

  22. NAND/DRAM/HDD by hsa · · Score: 1

    The right balance of NAND, DRAM and an HDD yields better results than DRAM and HDDs, study finds

    So.. they have NAND, DRAM and HDDs, and they choose to kill.. DRAM? What? If something is going to fade away it is the HDDs..

  23. Nether have you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unless it's a typo, even you don't seem to know that flash is a more versative type of ROM, not RAM (DRAM or SRAM)

    1. Re:Nether have you? by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

      ROM means Read Only Memory. Flash definitely isn't ROM in that sense: it is EEPROM, Electrically Erasable Programmable Read-Only Memory. The most common use of this before the SSD craze was the storage of BIOS settings. RAM means Random Access Memory, which typically is writeable (but doesn't have to be) as ROM usually is also RAM.

      RAM and ROM are as such not mutually exclusive and mean different things. They don't even have to be silicon. Take a CD-ROM, which is read-only memory, but also random access (it's a block device when used as data. Music CDs are not random access) and they are not chips made from silicon.

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
  24. I actually read the "article" by strikethree · · Score: 1

    They give no information about how they measured and came up with this: a dollar's worth of NAND flash improves PC performance more than adding a dollar's worth of DRAM. The closest they come to explaining it is this: After reviewing a "wide range of DRAM and NAND configurations," as well as nearly 300 industry-standard PC benchmarks

    Total garbage. After working with systems that have huge amounts of RAM in them, I can only conclude they are basing this off of Microsoft's paging algorithms. Put the swap/pagefile on a NAND device and things will really speed up due to the abusively aggressive nature of Microsoft's paging algorithms. If you could make a virtual ram drive to put the page file in, it would be even faster than a NAND solution... but these guys probably do not know how to do that.

    Again, if such grandiose claims are going to be made, provide some hard data.

    strike

    --
    "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    1. Re:I actually read the "article" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The actual article costs 5000 $.
      Are you referring to that?

  25. It'll never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The block-erase nature of NAND will preclude its use as main system memory. One application changing one bit of memory would necessitate the erasure and reprogramming of an entire block of memory, some of which would probably belong to another application, which would be a security violation, or at the very least require that application to halt while the read/modify/erase/write cycle is performed.

    Second, NAND does not last forever. The newer 25nm NAND flash is only good for a couple thousand PE cycles, so you'd be replacing your system memory every, oh, couple of hours or so.

    XIF works great for embedded systems where only a small amount of data needs to be stored or changed frequently. For server or desktop applications where things are constantly changing on a more massive scale, XIF is impractical.

    NAND _might_ be faster in XIF applications not requiring many writes. DRAM blows NAND away on write speed, especially if the NAND block has to be erased.

    1. Re:It'll never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      XIF is precisely the sort of application for which NOR flash would be preferred.

      But your explanation is right - block sizes, which typically keep growing w/ flash density, are enough of a reason flash (be it NAND or NOR) can never replace DRAM. Only scenario I see it happening is if DRAM finds a way of being non-volatile, in addition to everything else it already is.

  26. A CPU w/ a NAND interface? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm assuming that you mean raw, NAND flash. So in other words, your CPU bus has the same sort of bus that NAND does - 8 or 16 I/O lines where a control signal (namely ALE) determines whether the lines are @ any given moment carrying address or data? I've known of CPUs that have multiplexed address/data buses, but which CPU has the same sort of NAND interface that I just described?

    That is the main reason controllers are needed - and b'cos they are there, more tasks are almost always assigned to them, be it file management, ECC... That results in people thinking that that is the main use for the controller. Nope, the reason the controller has to be there in the first place is that the NAND interface is completely different from almost all CPU interfaces. When you have 2 devices w/ different interfaces and need them to exchange data, you need 'glue logic' of some sort that translates the input of one into the output of the other, and that is the primary function of the controller. ATA controllers, which are used in CF, SD and other such cards provide one familiar interface for the system - it makes the flash look like an ATA hard disk. One could use a controller w/ a different interface that the CPU is used to talking to. But an interface has to be there - this is not like directly connecting a CPU to an SRAM bus. After that, put on it the file system that supports the housekeeping activities you listed, assuming that the OS natively supports it. Since most systems are using Windows & NTFS (is FAT32 still used for these high >4GB densities?), the flash - whether it's CF or SD or SSD - will have to support NTFS, unless and until such time Microsoft decides to go your route and produce a native filesystem specific for SSDs, CF cards, SD cards and other flash memory based media.

    1. Re:A CPU w/ a NAND interface? by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      (is FAT32 still used for these high >4GB densities?)

      AFAIK, Windows does not like NTFS on a "removable" drive, so unless you make the CF card appear as a hard drive (which would be OK for Windows), you have to use FAT or FAT32.

    2. Re:A CPU w/ a NAND interface? by sexconker · · Score: 1

      (is FAT32 still used for these high >4GB densities?)

      AFAIK, Windows does not like NTFS on a "removable" drive, so unless you make the CF card appear as a hard drive (which would be OK for Windows), you have to use FAT or FAT32.

      AFAIK you're wrong.
      I've formatted plenty of external hard drives / flash drives as FAT32, NTFS, and exFAT under Windows.

    3. Re:A CPU w/ a NAND interface? by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Well, an external hard drive is detected as a "hard drive", so it is partitioned and formatted like an internal hard drive. USB flash sticks and various cards in card readers are detected as "removable disk" and Widows does not want to create more than one partition and format it in NTFS.

      Well, at least Windows XP does this.

    4. Re:A CPU w/ a NAND interface? by rhook · · Score: 1

      You're wrong about that, you can format any removable device as NTFS if it is large enough. I do it with USB flash drives all the time and have done it to sd cards in the past.

  27. The nether reaches of my memory by reiisi · · Score: 1

    A quick web search doesn't bring up any examples, but I remember when flash first came out, some of the manufacturers insisted on calling it "flash RAM" in their ads.

    I also remember the arguments on the BBSes, and the conclusion that EEPROM was already different enough from UVEPROM and other ROM as to call into question the ROM part of the acronym, and that "flash ROM" seemed a bit like an oymoron. Enough people have complained about calling it flash RAM that the maufacturers have gone to "flash memory". But you still see lots of examples of the term "flash RAM" in use on the web, and it's really not technically incorrect. (Any re-writable store used to be called RAM in some camps, although you're probably too young to remember that. Sure, some other camps insisted on SRWM or the like for serially re-writable devices.)

    Sure, the term causes confusion, see the article we seem to be commenting on.

    --
    Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
  28. Turbocharging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's just like cars....

    For my daily driver (server), I want something reliable and stable. I'll accept lower horsepower for reliability and wear/tear.

    For my weekend toy, I want fulltime AWD, a turbocharged motor, and a manual transmission. Handles like no other, 400+ horsepower from a little 4 cylinder, and decently reliable, but not compared to my daily driver.

    In short, you people are idiots placing such fragile tech into servers, just to gain a bit more performance. I'll see you in 6 months when your SSD fails and your NAND Flash memory is corrupting your caches and causing all kinds of problems. +1 if you had RAID and had that corrupted too when the SSD never reported a failure to the controller. SSDs + RAID = headache.

    I'll keep my reliability on the servers and use the new stuff to have fun on my desktop every once in awhile.

    1. Re:Turbocharging by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, perhaps Larry should hire you since you are smarter than all their engineers put together. Apparently they disagree with you. Their million $ plus top end database servers (Exadata) turn in some of the highest database OLTP numbers in the world and they are extremely reliable machines as well (and they should be for the price). These machines employ gobs of cpu cores, mountains of RAM, an enormous amount of flash memory (for caching) and many terabytes of high performance HDD (along with high performance host channel interconnects).

  29. Evict things from cache by tepples · · Score: 1

    Now in terms of practical usage I find RAM is way, WAY more important. If you don't have enough, some programs will just flat out not run. If your system is starved, paging kills the performance, even with an SSD handling the paging.

    I think the idea is that with the faster access times of an SSD, the operating system will be able to evict things from the system's cache more quickly, leaving more RAM for applications to use.

    about 1.5GB for OS and background services.

    This is part of the problem. Handheld devices are still RAM-starved, which is why handheld devices run a different incompatible operating system. But small laptops are also RAM-starved, and they run a desktop OS for the sake of user familiarity despite having only 1 GB (source: Dell.com).

    1. Re:Evict things from cache by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

      Well it should be noted that you don't need to have all that stuff running, and it can make due with less RAM. 1.5GB is what it wants ideally and I've the RAM for it.

      Also the small laptops just need to get more RAM. Rally, shit is cheap. No reason not to have at least 2GB and more like 4GB.

  30. So filesystems are the problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Interesting... &, I've heard similar statements in the past before also.

    * However, the old adage of "time will tell" is probably in effect here, and since you claim 15 yr. use duration (and I don't think you are lying either), time WILL tell!

    Avid user of TRUE SSD's here:

    ---

    CENATEK "RocketDrive" 2gb (PC-133 SDRAM, PCI 2.2 bus - 133mb/sec. transfer rate)

    Gigabyte "IRAM" 4gb (DDR2-RAM, PCI-x4 slot + SATA 150 bus - 150mb/sec. transfer rate)

    ---

    For ages (well, since 2002-2003 here)!

    (As well as RamDisk/RamDrive software for years before THAT too circa 1991-2002)...

    I use them for a myriad of purposes & they do help the system perform better, & by offloading my main HDD's here (WD 10k rpm Velociraptors 16mb buffered, & driven off a Promise Ex-8350 128mb ECC Ram RAID 6 caching controller)

    ---

    1.) Pagefile.sys placement
    2.) %Temp%/%Tmp% ops for OS & apps
    3.) OS & App logging location
    4.) Print Spooler location
    5.) %Comspec% location (command interpreters, e.g. command.com &/or cmd.exe in Windows NT-based OS)
    6.) Browser location (Their program location, along w/ their histories, bookmarks/favs load & store locations, etc.)

    & more...

    ---

    They ARE faster - With near instantaneous "seek/access" which is the 1st stage of the File Open/Read-Write/Flush/Close cycle... which is many, Many, MANY orders-of-magnitude faster/quicker than std. mechanical HDD's are!

    APK

    P.S.=> I hope you're correct... because RAM is "the future" of disks, & "The Future IS now..."

    ... apk

  31. Can't wait for FRAM to get cheaper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I picked up a TI dev board sporting a few KB of FRAM. It's too expensive to be cost-feasible, but if FRAM becomes cheaper to produce then we might see a very large shift in the market. You can erase/rewrite FRAM over and over and still not have a failure for... oh... 50 years give or take. Not to mention it uses less energy to store information to it.

  32. Did everyone here read a different article than I? by mswhippingboy · · Score: 1

    I'm coming in a bit late to this debate, but I got a completely different take on what the article was about than just about every post here.

    Everyone here seems to have used the article as an excuse to drag out the old "tired" debate of NAND vs HDD (and DRAM in this case) and which is better (from a technical perspective). I didn't see anything in the article that compared these on a technical front. The article was about the NAND market vs the DRAM market going into the future. It makes total sense to me.

    For instance, my main development machine is (a fairly typical) quad-core machine with 8GB RAM and lots of HDD. With the various development tools I use, I generally run about 75% RAM utilization with little or no swapping. If I were to add another 8GB RAM I would see virtually no performance increase. However, if I were to add an SDD to the machine (especially if used for the OS and tools I frequently use - mostly read only files) I would see a dramatic improvement. Ergo, my money would be better spent on SDD than DRAM. That's it. That's what I took away from the article.

    While one can certainly point up specific examples of where adding DRAM would increase performance more than adding NAND, that's not the point of the article.

    I can certainly see the industry getting to the point where the DRAM begins to level off (how much RAM do "typical" users really need and at what point does adding DRAM stop adding value and begin to degrade the "overall" performance characteristics of the machine when power, especially battery life, is factored into the equation).

    The article is all about the blend of DRAM, NAND and HDD storage and how the market for NAND is expected to rise much more rapidly than the market for DRAM, perhaps even leading to a decline in DRAM revenues.

    Nowhere is the article suggesting one can directly replace DRAM with NAND, That's just silly. They are completely different technologies intended for completely different application.

    --
    Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.
  33. Exactly what PC makers want. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NAND flash degrades over time and has a limited amount of program/erase cycles.

    Built-in forced obsolescence or a "wear-out" item so they can make you buy a new unit or send it into their service center for a "memory change" (like a tire change on a car).

  34. Re:Did everyone here read a different article than by rbmorse · · Score: 1

    Reading the article before commenting is not compulsory here.

  35. Re:Did everyone here read a different article than by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

    "Adding NAND flash memory to a PC does more for performance than DRAM and costs less" isn't a statement about markets. It's a statement about how the use of certain technologies affect the overall performance of a PC.

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  36. What Problem by tomxor · · Score: 1

    What about Intel's SSD lineup? (the MLC ones that is - because everything you have said only applies to MLC). They seem to have put all their focus on the controller and management aspect of it. I've been using their second generation one in my main computer for about a year now, and they seem pretty solid in my opinion.

    I don't get what you are saying about power failure though... i mean i'm sure that is possible with some poorly designed controller/firmware. but surely most of them are smart enough to design one where in the case of power failure during page remapping for wear leveling ; ether A) mapping storage design restricts data loss to the pages being operated on B) their is a power buffer large enough to allow the controller to finish internal operations, or C) both.I'm pretty sure any of the major SSDs intended for main block device replacement implement something along those lines.

    We use raw flash, with linux and JFFS2 or UBIFS. Which is a filesystem designed to run on flash, raw flash. Wake me when "SSD" offers that solution. (TRIM is not a solution, it's a workaround)

    For non esoteric circumstances, it seems quite committing to adopt a file-system that specifically caters for MLC NAND's wear and granularity limitations. As great as it is for bringing large fast SSDs to us for cheap right now... it certainly wont be around for long, there are probably going to be lots of different types of solid state storage technologies competing for the place of block storage device, can you imagine having a different file-system for every single one?.

    Another problem with offloading MLC page management to the file-system is that you are also then committing to retaining wear leveling data and page pools. it just completely stops it being an easy swappable wipeable block device... IMO leave the management specific to the storage technology on the technology, keep the file-system as relevant to data / OS as possible

    Also if your going to be purist enough to complain about TRIM being a work around then you might as well also call SATA a work around... the next level is bootable pcie, wakeup... everything is a workaround, if it doesn't work with current technology it doesn't sell, if it doesn't sell it wont get developed.

  37. Re:Did everyone here read a different article than by mswhippingboy · · Score: 1

    "Adding NAND flash memory to a PC does more for performance than DRAM and costs less" isn't a statement about markets. It's a statement about how the use of certain technologies affect the overall performance of a PC.

    But it doesn't say that in the article. That's what the summary says. Everyone who's been here a while knows that the summary is usually way off the mark as to the true content of the story.

    --
    Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.
  38. Re:Did everyone here read a different article than by Arlet · · Score: 1

    For instance, my main development machine is (a fairly typical) quad-core machine with 8GB RAM and lots of HDD. With the various development tools I use, I generally run about 75% RAM utilization with little or no swapping. If I were to add another 8GB RAM I would see virtually no performance increase

    Why ? The extra RAM could be used as additional disk buffers. The fact that your current utilization is only 75% doesn't mean that extra RAM won't be used. It could be that the OS has a strategy to keep some free memory around to start new applications.

    For example, my 4GB machine currently has 1.6GB free, which is an even lower utilization that yours.

  39. SSDs are the best improvement to make TODAY by Theovon · · Score: 1

    The greatest performance limiter of today's top-of-the-line computers is the mechanical hard disk. Although the article may have some concepts screwed up (I assume), the one upgrade that makes the greatest _apparent_ improvement in performance is switching from an HDD to an SSD. Yes, it's true that more DRAM helps, but any decent NEW system today already comes with 4GB of RAM (2GB if you really cheap out). 4GB is overkill for most users, so switching to an SSD will have a greater impact on general performance than upgrading to 8GB of RAM. This is because 4GB of RAM is more than enough cache their most frequently used disk blocks, so the only performance hit people will see is the time to load a program that isn't already cached in RAM. Everything else will _already_ be in RAM.

    Now, I'm a power user, and going from 4GB to 8GB makes a huge difference for me. I always have several apps open at once and maybe 50 tabs in Safari. (Also Mac OS X has a shameful VM compard to Linux, so the extra RAM helps even more on a Mac. Linux seems to do a way better job of figuring out what to keep cached and paged in when under memory pressure.) But as it is, because everything else is so fast (Sandy Bridge, all the RAM, etc.), the only thing that limits peformance for me is the mechanical hard drive. It's very noticable, especially after I've rebooted. My problem is that I wanted the larger drive and didn't want to shell out $1500 for the 512GB SSD. I had to make a compromise because I'm still a grad student.

  40. Re:Did everyone here read a different article than by epine · · Score: 1

    I read the same article. The problem is that the entire article should be rendered as fine print underneath a HOLLYWOOD sized YMMV billboard.

    Also the TCO on SSD taints the economics: failure modes are changing at a speed that gives even a hard core geek a rational ignorance skin rash. There was a nice post above on the physics of desperation. I can add DRAM without a major update to my mental catalog of high-performance electronics failure modes.

    Also I don't get the economic argument in the first place. With 8GB of RAM, I rarely find myself disk bound except on huge datasets that also verge on CPU bound.

    I don't think they are talking about a speed increase of the kind where you could integrate over a 24 hour period and declare "you saved 10 minutes today". They are talking about speed which shows up in a higher derivative, making "attention span" an essential parameter of the workload simulated.

    HDD performance is within *my* attention span 99% of the time. Or put it another way, every application I use regularly is permanently open on one desktop or another. Starting an application fresh every 15 minutes and manually placing the newly open windows where I wish them to be is *not* within my attention span.

    Does this incredible (and cheap) SSD performance increment save more time than the average person wastes in a day shuffling window placement on applications of short duration?

    I bet not.

  41. RAM vs Flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I originally used ROM to capture all non-volatile memory - within that, you have mask ROM, PROM, EPROM (UV alterable) and MTP, EEPROM (where every byte is alterable) and finally flash. Initially, flash used to be called EEPROMs when even densities of 1Mbit had page mode operation (i.e. you couldn't alter anything less than a page of data, which was typically 128 bytes). However, when it started going to sector erase, byte program architectures, the name flash took over. And within flash, you have 2 architectures - NOR flash and NAND flash, whose architectural differences in terms of common/separate bit lines & word lines determine the amount of density that can be packed in a given area w/ a given lithography.

    Your latter paragraph is more about the mode of operations, rather than a type of memory. RAM always means that you can both read and write to any location in memory. In a CD-ROM, you can only read any location in memory accessed @ random, and don't need to read a whole sector. But the main point about the differences b/w RAM and Flash is that w/ RAM, when you are writing to a location, the previous data is automatically lost and the new data replaces it - no erase is required. In any flash, a location has to be erased to all ones, before it can be programmed w/ a value (depending on the size of the data bus). The difference may seem subtle or academic, but in RAM, write times are as fast as read, but in flash, whereas read times are in ns, program times are in s while erase times are in ms, if not seconds. That difference in write times alone makes any sort of flash unsuitable for replacing DRAMs.

    1. Re:RAM vs Flash by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

      I don't agree, mostly because the abbreviations have meaning and you totally disregard those. It might be that it is "generally accepted", but it puts your RAM and ROM definition in the same line as a "PIN Number" or and "ATM Machine": the abbreviation has become void of all meaning.

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    2. Re:RAM vs Flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By that standard, ROMs are RAMs, since any byte on ROM can be randomly read. In other words, ROM is a subset of RAM, by your definition.

      But in reality, the big difference b/w them - the fact that one of them is volatile memory that can be written to as fast as it can be read from, whereas another is non-volatile memory that cannot be easily that easily written to - makes all the difference as to when and where they are used. Making them 2 completely different types of memory that complement, rarely compete, against each other.

    3. Re:RAM vs Flash by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

      It is by my definition, and I said so in my original post.

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)