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Anonymous Releases Restricted NATO Document

angry tapir writes "Anonymous has released a document marked 'restricted' from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). The 36-page document, which is dated Aug. 27, 2007, appears to be budget and equipment outlays for what was termed a new 'HQ ISAF JOINT CIS CONTROL CENTRE.' NATO's press office could not be immediately reached. Anonymous claimed on its 'AnonymousIRC' Twitter handle that it has 1GB of material from NATO but said that most would not be published because it would be 'irresponsible.'"

187 comments

  1. Yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You heard!

    1. Re:Yawn by Medevilae · · Score: 1

      Calling their bluff on having anything valuable.

    2. Re:Yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. It is so not like Anonymous to be 'responsible'

    3. Re:Yawn by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      Agreed. It is so not like Anonymous to be 'responsible'

      They are just doing that to get attention.

    4. Re:Yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, they're doing that to differentiate Anon ops from LulzSec. And it's a good idea. The public turned on LulzSec pretty hard when they started messing with everyday nobodies. People like it when you give a big bully a black eye. They don't like you when you give everyone in school a black eye because you think it's funny. That makes you the bully.

  2. Restricted doesn't mean anything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's the lowest level of classification, just above Unclassified. Doesn't prove anything so far as Anonymous hacking skills. They make it seem like they're taking a bug risk but they aren't.

    1. Re:Restricted doesn't mean anything by FunkyELF · · Score: 2

      Restriced should be just as secured as Classified, Top Secret, Über Top Secret, etc.... in that only those two should see it are allowed to see it.
      Why have more than one security scheme. Have one that works and use it.

    2. Re:Restricted doesn't mean anything by Braedley · · Score: 1

      What should be done and what is done are two completely different things. The only real requirements for storing Restricted documents is that they be stored in "secured areas". I work for a defence contractor. If I have physical possession of Restricted documents (I don't, and I rarely would), I would only need to place them in my desk drawer at the end of the day since the office meets the requirements to store material that's classified higher than that. They don't need to be in a safe, or even in a locked filing cabinet. Consider that (at least in Canada), an Access to Information request can get you many restricted documents (albeit usually with an attached NDA), and you see that Restricted documents aren't all that special.

    3. Re:Restricted doesn't mean anything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why have more than one security scheme. Have one that works and use it.

      Cost. More security equals more restrictions and paperwork and fancy equiptment/certifications/audits which makes doing anything with the information take more time and effort which makes it cost more.

      The difference between restricted and "Über Top Secret" would be a lot of tax dollars spent by those who have to do something with the information.

    4. Re:Restricted doesn't mean anything by blacklint · · Score: 1

      No it shouldn't. There's always a tradeoff between security and usability. Security is all about mitigating risk, and if the effort to better secure a document to only those "who should have access" is greater than the harm the document being released would cause, it isn't worth it. The whole point of security classifications is to deal with this in a sane manner: this document is of great importance, it has to stay on the network behind an air gap and locked doors. This other one is useful to a lot of people and not very damaging, so put it on the non-secure internet-bridged network. And to better secure material you have to make it accessable to fewer people, so would you rather governments stop sharing information between agencies?

    5. Re:Restricted doesn't mean anything by bickerdyke · · Score: 1

      Makes sense - in a physical world for physical documents.

      In a binary world, you have only three different possibilities: accessible for everyone, accessible for those who need access, and not even stored on a computer connected to a network. (In which case the physical security rules kick in again)

      --
      bickerdyke
  3. Link is already broken :( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    just like your mom. :(

  4. Irresponsible? by cpscotti · · Score: 1

    Jeezz! They've probably ran into pretty nasty bits there..
    Or they are actually becoming responsible ..
    OOOR Anon is trying some cool PR stunt! :D

    1. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What if releasing them could cause World War III? Seriously?

    2. Re:Irresponsible? by Threni · · Score: 1

      It's probably more motivated by a desire to not spend the next 30 years discussing word documents with Bradley Manning.

    3. Re:Irresponsible? by jovius · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's interesting if Anonymous is actually taking that stance about the docs. I understood they were being sarcastic. The documents should be published in their entirety or Anonymous would appear to support the militarist and secretive paradigm they claim to oppose.

    4. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      IF WW3 would result from that, it wouldn't be the fault of those who released the documents but those responsible for the action in said documents.

      I find it hard to understand why people try to blame the messenger, while the original perpetrator is ignored completely. Are people really this stupid?

    5. Re:Irresponsible? by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Are people really this stupid?

      Is that a rhetorical question?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:Irresponsible? by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 4, Informative

      I call killing one million people in Iraq for oil and dollar supremacy irresponsible.

      I'm not sure that a million Iraqis have actually died in the conflict. Too damn many for sure, but I'm not so sure it's a million. In any case, you give the current and previous operators of this particular war far too much credit. Oil? Dollar supremacy? That would actually be some sort of goal. A terrible way to achieve that goal, but a goal nonetheless. Personally, I'm going for arrogance as the root cause of the war with a side order of finishing his father's business and the bullshit "stay the course" nonsense as to why it is still going on in another administration.

      --
      SSC
    7. Re:Irresponsible? by somersault · · Score: 1

      What if the documents were all garbage that had been rejected? What if those who had created the documents were fired?

      There are people who would actually like to start WW3. We don't need to give them a semi-legitimate excuse to start it.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    8. Re:Irresponsible? by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 1

      It could be fear and not support; they're willing to engage in some level of harassment, perhaps probing NATO to see what their response will be, before they really drop a bomb on them.

      --
      SSC
    9. Re:Irresponsible? by adamchou · · Score: 2
      Just for clarification, anything I'm referring to below is strictly regarding Afghanistan

      I call dropping bombs on innocent people in Afghanistan irresponsible

      Its irresponsible if they're being careless about where they're dropping bombs. It is not the agenda of the state to intentionally target innocents. Innocents are a casualty of war, most of the time.

      to 'spread peace and democracy'

      I'd say its more to maintain peace and democracy in the State. An extremist Muslim nation will never allow for peace and democracy in any of the nations that fall under "the State"

      so releasing these documents for the greater good of preventing millions of deaths

      How do you know what the documents are? For all you know, these are documents that contain the names, locations, and methods of access of the most important world leaders. I don't see how releasing a document that potentially puts more peoples lives in jeopardy would help save lives.

    10. Re:Irresponsible? by somersault · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You do know that Anonymous isn't one grandly unified body, and that it's made up of individuals who may have slightly differing opinions to the rest? Why do they all have to subscribe to the groupthink?

      Anyway, we're talking about Anonymous, not Wikileaks.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    11. Re:Irresponsible? by stms · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's an interesting idea that it would be 'irresponsible' to release these documents in full.

      I call dropping bombs on innocent people in Afganistan irresponsible. I call killing one million people in Iraq for oil and dollar supremacy irresponsible. If you are going to use conventional, State / MSM thinking to restrict and control your actions, then apply this thinking evenly; the State is dropping bombs on people for the 'greater good' (to 'spread peace and democracy') and so releasing these documents for the greater good of preventing millions of deaths is completely justified and not at all irresponsible. It is in fact, the only responsible thing to do, since more people will be spared a horrible death for no reason, than could possibly be harmed by the release of the information.

      You're being very assumptive by saying releasing these documents would save lives they could just as easily get people killed. Don't get me wrong I support more freedom of information but neither of us have any idea whats in these documents.

    12. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It depends on what they are holding back. This isn't zero sum/binary where you are either with them or against them. Take that view and you are no different than Bush II and those like him in mentality.

      We can't say how much of the material is irresponsible to ever publish, how much needs names of "innocents" removed* and how much of it is near worthless and not revealing it is part of a bluff**.

      *Goat Farmer X told military officer Y he saw a group matching the description of Z we are hunting. Turned out to be Z. The goat farmer likely could have his name blocked out.
      **The released is a budget. How many of these documents are near pointless inventories? "We have 30 rolls of toilet paper in stock, 413 blue pens, 612 red pens, 22/7 rolls of red tape."

    13. Re:Irresponsible? by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 5, Informative

      I call killing one million people in Iraq for oil and dollar supremacy irresponsible.

      I'm not sure that a million Iraqis have actually died in the conflict. Too damn many for sure, but I'm not so sure it's a million.

      You're probably right. Figures vary a lot but most of them are far below 1 million. Only the "Opinion Research Business Survey" reports more than 1 million deaths. The controversial Lancet survey reported 601,027 deaths while the extremely well-confirmed minimum figure of Iraq Body Count lists 101,906 civilian deaths. (Notice that Iraq Body Count only counts cases with multiple sources of evidence from the international press, though. So the actual number of deaths is very likely significantly higher and could be well in the range of the Lancet survey.)

      However, there doesn't seem to be any reliable source about violent deaths of Iraq military combatants. I've seen estimates ranging from ten thousands up to several hundred thousands, but nobody seems to know for sure.

      Anyway, considering all the evidence, it seems likely that less than one million people died in Iraq as a result of the US intervention. (not taking into account the first Gulf War)

    14. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So it's not irresponsible to drop bombs when you know that no matter how careful you are, innocents will be killed by accident?

    15. Re:Irresponsible? by jp102235 · · Score: 3, Informative

      trying to find morality in war is quite futile: so to say that dropping bombs on "innocents" is bad, sorta seems like saying dropping bombs on non-"innocents" is ok. none of it is good. but that is why we call it war and avoid it at all costs (if we can). unfortunately, _some_ people won't listen, and they need the motivation of bombs to get them to the negotiating table.

      --
      jp
    16. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NATO exists because it's a lesson learned from the Second World War. My guess, in your hatred for Americans you're confusing Afghanistan with Iraq, where NATO played no role.

      They break in and steal information, that, poorly used can kill innocents and they don't consider THAT irresponsible?

      And you know what's funny? Those hackers are just that, hackers, they don't have any military background or political, what they consider harmless can be very damaging and vice-versa.

      What's irresponsible is NATO's shoddy security if a bunch of idealistic little morons with some computer skills can steal some important documents. Which I doubt they did. I really find it hard to believe any valuable data was stored on a server accessible from the internet.

    17. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > killing one million people in Iraq for oil and dollar supremacy

      [citation needed[

    18. Re:Irresponsible? by digitig · · Score: 1

      What if releasing them could cause World War III? Seriously?

      Then they should have a much more secure classification than "restricted", unauthorized disclosure of which is merely "undesirable".

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    19. Re:Irresponsible? by PhilHibbs · · Score: 1

      Is it irresponsible to allow people to drive cars, knowing that no matter how careful you are, innocents will be killed by accident? With any national or global policy decision there will be winners and losers, and there will be deaths. Is war always irresponsible? Not in my opinion, I think there have been legitimate reasons for war in the past even though innocents died. Is bombing always irresponsible? No, because bombing is a necessary component of any modern war, and nowadays results in fewer lives lost than most of the other means. Is the Afghan war irresponsible? I'm not sure. If I could read a history book written 50 years from now, then I could answer that question.

    20. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Its irresponsible if they're being careless about where they're dropping bombs. It is not the agenda of the state to intentionally target innocents. Innocents are a casualty of war, most of the time.

      First of all, the USA has not declared war on A-stan. There is absolutely no legitimate reason whatsoever for the soldiers of the USA to be in A-stan, or for its pilots to be dropping bombs from flying drones on that country.

      I'd say its more to maintain peace and democracy in the State. An extremist Muslim nation will never allow for peace and democracy in any of the nations that fall under "the State"

      It is not the job of America to maintain peace and democracy anywhere except inside the continental USA. They have no right to promote their ideas in other countries through war, and have no right to tell people how to live in their countries.

      There is no such thing as an "extremist Muslim nation". This is pure mainstream media brainwashing. If the people of A-stan want to live in a muslim caliphate, that is entirely their business, and not yours and mine, and Americans should not be spilling their blood over the political systems of foreigners.

      How do you know what the documents are? For all you know, these are documents that contain the names, locations, and methods of access of the most important world leaders. I don't see how releasing a document that potentially puts more peoples lives in jeopardy would help save lives.

      OP doesn't know what they are, and no one except NATO and Anonymous knows. What this is about is the thinking behind not releasing the information in full, all at once, because 'someone might get hurt'. This is not logical, and it is the reasoning used by the warmongers to keep their own operatives free from harm while they murder tens of thousands with impunity.

      Wikileaks is completely wrong in this respect also. They have documents and are releasing them through newspaper outlets like the Guardian, which are State gatekeepers who will never do anything that will unseat the State. This is not only because the State has the D Notice system hanging over their heads, but because they actually believe the State to be a good thing, despite its mass murder and endemic, inherent corruption.

      Wikileaks should have simply released it all from the beginning, for everyone to pour through. Instead, they are cherry picking the documents, witholding anything that is really dangerous to the state, and meanwhile, the killing in A-stan goes on, as does the illegal occupation of Iraq. No politician has resigned due to Wikileaks, no war action has been halted, and no war action has been prevented; in fact, drones are now dropping in Somalia, an entirely new war front post Wikileaks Cablegate / Collateral Damage. Wikileaks, for all its good intentions has not managed to stop the mass murder continuing and spreading. In this respect, it is a total failure.

      Anonymous, in order to not make the same mistakes as Wikileaks should not be copying what Wikileaks is doing if they want to have a different effect. Anonymous is working with mainstream media outlets on releasing the documents they have accessed and are witholding stuff, just like Wikileaks. What they can expect is exactly what Wikileaks has received; the scrutiny of the police, and no cessation of the State violence, corruption and theft. Its a shame, because they are really smart people with high moral standards, hight technical skills and a genuine desire to do good. They will fail if they copy Wikileaks.

    21. Re:Irresponsible? by digitig · · Score: 2

      I call killing one million people in Iraq for oil and dollar supremacy irresponsible.

      I'm not sure that a million Iraqis have actually died in the conflict.

      It's not just the armed conflict; the sanctions count too. Madeline Albright famously didn't challenge the figure of half a million children killed by the sanctions alone, so although nobody is sure about the figures one million is probably on the low side.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    22. Re:Irresponsible? by karuna · · Score: 2

      Nah, there isn't even the most remote possibility that the released documents will initiate any conflict. Thing about it, if script kiddies can download these documents, the really interested parties can get them as well. Most probably China, Iran etc. already have them. NATO might even act on assumption that they are no longer secrets. They are only hiding them from the general population of their own countries out of fear that it will expose their dirty laundry.

    23. Re:Irresponsible? by MasaMuneCyrus · · Score: 1

      We're assuming that they have documents showing conspiracy to falsify evidence in order to go to war and unsavory war actions. For all we know, anon could have gotten a hold of information of a a huge corruption and bribing scandal involving the Russian mafia. It could be anything. Perhaps anon doesn't look forward to being tracked down and assassinated.

    24. Re:Irresponsible? by Rich0 · · Score: 2

      releasing these documents for the greater good of preventing millions of deaths is completely justified and not at all irresponsible

      How will releasing these documents prevent millions of deaths?

      If they find some document that proves that there is some great conspiracy to engineer wars to increase defense contractor profits or something, I'd say that would be something to release. On the other hand, how is publishing the operational budget for the construction of some base somewhere going to prevent millions of deaths. Do you think the leaders of NATO nations are going to say "whoa - our line-item for $20k in toilet fixtures has been leaked to the world - let's change our foreign policy!"

      Wars happen because elected leaders issue orders to pursue them. All NATO does is drop the bombs. I doubt there is some document that shows that innocent people were deliberately targeted/etc. Most likely the best you'll find is some map that labels a building as weapons factory and it turned out it was an orphanage or whatever. Besides - anything actually dealing with targeting decisions is probably classified way beyond the stuff that Anonymous got a hold of.

      And for the record, I'm all for having less intervention overseas, and fewer long-term engagements. Leaking military operational information isn't likely to change that, and may just end up getting people killed. The wars are started by politicians, so that should be the focus of reform.

    25. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you feel about a president going to war with Libya without congressional approval?

    26. Re:Irresponsible? by martin-boundary · · Score: 1
      Well, we shouldn't say that some of the materials should never be published. Everything should be published after some time, no matter what. The real question is only how long to wait for various types of documents.

      Also, budgets can be highly interesting, at least for people who are into datamining, which probably includes a sizeable slashdot contingent. To take an analogy, mining webserver logs can be highly interesting because there's a lot of indirect information in them. Same with budgets, they are just financial logs and can tell a lot of indirect information to someone who knows how to read them.

    27. Re:Irresponsible? by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, the sanctions! I had forgotten about those; the actual armed conflict has (probably) not killed 1 million, but it would not surprise me if, with the first war and sanctions, more than a million have been killed.

      --
      SSC
    28. Re:Irresponsible? by Dachannien · · Score: 0

      I call killing one million people in Iraq for oil and dollar supremacy irresponsible.

      I call it irresponsible to inflate reported numbers of Iraqi deaths by an order of magnitude and to implicate coalition members as causing most of those deaths rather than AQI, Syria, and Iran. If we can't trust your judgment when it comes to getting simple, verifiable facts correct, why should we trust your judgment when it comes to an assessment of whether releasing the NATO documents would save lives rather than cause further bloodshed, especially when you haven't even seen the documents in question?

    29. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your nitpicking over the number is really distasteful and ignorant; people are dying in unbelievable number and all you care about is an accourate count, not stopping it. Very very sick and twisted.

      For your information, you can find many sources that quote that number:

      http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq

      but that is not my point. People like you are part of the problem, with your autistic logic, infantile belief systems and brainwashed babble.

      Go back to sleep you pabulum gobbling moron.

    30. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't get me wrong I support more freedom of information but neither of us have any idea whats in these documents.

      Which makes one wonder wth is in there that would make even Anonymous take a moment to consider the consequences of releasing it, and to decide not to. It suggests some very nasty shit, liable to start some wars. Which wouldn't be surprising, given we're talking about NATO.

    31. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they were really worried about an extremist Muslim government taking power in Iraq, they should have left the secular dictator in place.

    32. Re:Irresponsible? by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      The wars are started by politicians, so that should be the focus of reform.

      I used to think that too. I was really upset at Bush during the buildup to the Iraq war because I thought he was pushing us into a war that no one wanted.

      Then I looked around and realized the truth: most Americans actually wanted to invade Iraq. Some of it was because of Bush's convincing (or shall we say, deceptions?), but if you remember the poster from those days, "no blood for oil!", one American commentator said, "some people will answer that with, 'why not?"

      In other words, if you want to end war, start by convincing people around you. Then politicians will have no power.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    33. Re:Irresponsible? by Cant+use+a+slash+wtf · · Score: 1

      I think everyone is over-estimating Anonymous. I wouldn't be surprised if they just said it would be "irresponsible" as a way of trolling EVERYONE. I mean, you would expect them to just release them with little care for anything else, but why would they just hold on to them?
      Answer: It's fucking funny.

    34. Re:Irresponsible? by radtea · · Score: 0

      the extremely well-confirmed minimum figure of Iraq Body Count lists 101,906 civilian deaths. (Notice that Iraq Body Count only counts cases with multiple sources of evidence from the international press, though

      Only the population of the town I live in? Well that's OK then!

      I really wish anti-war idiots like the one you are replying to would get with the program and start protesting the most realistic numbers, as it would shut off this ridiculous line of debate where some faux rationalist like you starts debating precisely how dreadful the event is, and implies--whether you mean to or not--that if the best estimate is "only" 10% of the estimate given by the maximally outraged nitwit that they should only be 10% as outraged.

      Environmentalists, AGW advocates and deniers, anti-scientific irrationalists of all stripes, conservative and liberal and libertarian, all do this, and there has to be a way to teach them that when you make an argument like: "False claim X should motivate everyone to behave the way I want them to!" you are inviting people to debate the truth or falsity of your claim, and when it proves false--because the truth will out--you will lose credibility with everyone except those who already believe in the values you don't have the guts to promote honestly, hiding instead behind false claims of fact and hoping they will carry the weight.

      While there is no doubt that "more deaths are worse than fewer", it isn't a cardinal scale. A million is not ten times worse than a hundred thousand, a hundred thousand isn't a million times worse than one. But to anyone who is sane it is clear that far too many innocent people have died in Iraq--not least the good samaritans we saw illegally killed in the video "Collateral Murder". And it is also clear that those people died for no noble cause, but in an unjust, illegal war started by the United States and Britain (which was under a socialist government at the time, by the way.)

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    35. Re:Irresponsible? by poity · · Score: 1

      Well, it takes coherence and coordination to pull off any type of complex group action. Flashmobs too -- as anonymous, random, and simple as they are -- but there's no flashmob without someone making the facebook page and others spreading the link. There is structure and a hierarchy of influence. Additionally, perhaps you're right that referring to Anonymous as a whole is imprecise. Perhaps we can call last month's hacks the work of Anonymous.antiSONY();, and this month's silly antics performed by Anonymous.antiNATO();

      Would that make you Slashdot pedants happy?

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    36. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no such thing as an "extremist Muslim nation". This is pure mainstream media brainwashing. If the people of A-stan want to live in a muslim caliphate, that is entirely their business, and not yours and mine

      When they shelter a person responsible for a major attack on the United States and then refuse to hand him over it becomes our business.

      Islamism is just like the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese. The Nazis and Imperial Japanese wanted a fight, they wanted war. We gave them a fight. We gave them war. The civilized world grabbed them by the back of their head and face fucked them with our big warcock until they choked on it and threw up on themselves, then we made them lick up the mess they made until they begged us to stop.

      Guess who else was spoiling for a fight. Islamists. Now they're getting a taste of warcock. They're starting to choke on it but we're not done with them by a long shot.

    37. Re:Irresponsible? by somersault · · Score: 1

      I am not affiliated with these Slashdot pedants to whom you refer!

      --
      which is totally what she said
    38. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, people like you are the problem. You embrace histrionics and disallow accurate assessment of fact.

    39. Re:Irresponsible? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Maybe if leaders were at risk when deciding to have a conflict they would work harder to find better solutions?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    40. Re:Irresponsible? by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 2

      the extremely well-confirmed minimum figure of Iraq Body Count lists 101,906 civilian deaths. (Notice that Iraq Body Count only counts cases with multiple sources of evidence from the international press, though

      Only the population of the town I live in? Well that's OK then!

      I really wish anti-war idiots like the one you are replying to would get with the program and start protesting the most realistic numbers, as it would shut off this ridiculous line of debate where some faux rationalist like you starts debating precisely how dreadful the event is, and implies--whether you mean to or not--that if the best estimate is "only" 10% of the estimate given by the maximally outraged nitwit that they should only be 10% as outraged.

      "Faux rationalist" Have we read Foucault or some other French bullshit philosophy lately?

      Personally I find such political debates boring because they tend to be dominated by people like you who apparently can't read (or don't want to) and just invent accusations and insults out of the blue against anyone they suspect might not fully share their world-view. A reasonable discussion of topics like wars should be based on accurate data.

      While there is no doubt that "more deaths are worse than fewer", it isn't a cardinal scale. A million is not ten times worse than a hundred thousand, a hundred thousand isn't a million times worse than one.

      While this might be a popular statement, it is still very silly and in a straightforward decision-theoretic sense irrational. I suspect (only modest pun intended) that such sentiments are a by-product of the frequent exposure to Hollywood movie scripts and (in academia) of "trolley-case" ethics.

      The big shame is that there are no accurate figures and the most accurate ones are hand-collected by a bunch of volunteers.

      Just for the record (not that my opinion matters in any way): I was and am decidedly for the First Gulf War and was and am decidedly against the Second Gulf War. So. Now all the world knows it. I do have some beliefs that do not fit neatly into the standard left/right dichotomy.

        You may print out my political opinion now, frame it, and hang it over your bed as a token of the power of independent thinking based on real data over mere political opinion, confirmation bias, and wishful thinking.

    41. Re:Irresponsible? by biek · · Score: 1

      I really find it hard to believe any valuable data was stored on a server accessible from the internet.

      ahahahahahahahahahahahahahHAHAHAHAHAAHAHDHAHADFKJHDSJKH;KGDSHIOG;HSDGOHK

    42. Re:Irresponsible? by uigrad_2000 · · Score: 1

      Don't reply to the flamebait.

      --
      Free unix account: freeshell.org
    43. Re:Irresponsible? by kevinNCSU · · Score: 1

      Out of sheer curiosity, were you for how we ended the first gulf war?

    44. Re:Irresponsible? by krapski · · Score: 1

      When they shelter a person responsible for a major attack on the United States and then refuse to hand him over it becomes our business.

      Wrong: It becomes the UN's business.

    45. Re:Irresponsible? by adamchou · · Score: 1

      I see what you're saying, but two points..
      1) Realistically, the leader would just find a better bomb shelter rather than find a solution that doesn't involve violence
      2)What non-violent solution could you possibly propose to an extremist organization that wants to wipe you off the face of the Earth?

    46. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Americans should not be spilling their blood over the political systems of foreigners.

      OK, and on the other end we've got:

      Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities.

      I'll go with "Haters gonna hate." Is China acting responsibly in Africa? Is it worth getting into a pissing match over the Dalai Lama? Is the government of Myanmar legitimate? North Korea sunk a ship, what now? Should somebody say something to France before they elect LePen? This is complex shit, and it requires judgement and expertise that the "activists" don't have.

    47. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I call demagoguery irresponsible.

    48. Re:Irresponsible? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      You do know that Anonymous isn't one grandly unified body, and that it's made up of individuals who may have slightly differing opinions to the rest?

      And so it comes down to which individuals have possession of the files.

      Anyway, we're talking about Anonymous, not Wikileaks.

      For which a significant portion embrace the Operation Payback Manifesto. which says, in part:

      We support the free flow of information. Anonymous is actively campaigning for this goal everywhere in all forms. This necessitates the freedom of expression for: The Internet, for journalism and journalists, and citizens of the world. Though we recognize you may disagree, we believe that Anonymous is campaigning for you so that your voice may never be silenced.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    49. Re:Irresponsible? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      1) Realistically, the leader would just find a better bomb shelter rather than find a solution that doesn't involve violence

      Not when their kids are drafted.

      2)What non-violent solution could you possibly propose to an extremist organization that wants to wipe you off the face of the Earth?

      A level-headed evaluation of the risk they pose would have been a good start. As it is now we have way too much incentive to over-react. Well, as it was a decade ago. Nowadays being war-weary and nearly broke in part because of that over-reaction seems to be partially filling for equanimity.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    50. Re:Irresponsible? by black+soap · · Score: 1

      It could be fear and not support; they're willing to engage in some level of harassment, perhaps probing NATO to see what their response will be, before they really drop a bomb on them.

      Fun with ambiguous pronouns. Who is more likely to literally drop bombs on whom?

    51. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I call dropping bombs on innocent people in Afganistan irresponsible.

      So does the US military, which is why they have regulations.

      I call killing one million people in Iraq for oil and dollar supremacy irresponsible.

      So do the neoconservatives, which is why they invaded Iraq and want to invade Iran to stop the killing.

      releasing these documents for the greater good of preventing millions of deaths is completely justified

      So many more people will die if the NATO lunch room gets a green toaster instead of a beige toaster.

      It is in fact, the only responsible thing to do

      I am in fact responding to a simple-minded pinhead who cannot see detail or complexity.

    52. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not just the armed conflict; the sanctions count too.

      No they don't. Iraq's inability to feed its own people during an embargo is Iraq's fault. Are you also going to blame the US for the tens of millions of deaths in Stalin's Russia and China's Cultural Revolution? The US had sanctions on those countries too.

    53. Re:Irresponsible? by adamchou · · Score: 1

      Not when their kids are drafted.

      I believe that the politicians would be proud, although fearful, of their children for going to war. Many of them are veterans. However, if its the contrary, we both know full well that those politicians can and will find ways around a draft if they wanted to.

      A level-headed evaluation of the risk they pose would have been a good start. As it is now we have way too much incentive to over-react. Well, as it was a decade ago. Nowadays being war-weary and nearly broke in part because of that over-reaction seems to be partially filling for equanimity.

      It stopped being a risk and became reality as soon as peoples lives were taken. Now that we're leaving Afghanistan, how long do you think it will take until another attack on Western soil happens again? Then what do you propose we do? Talk it out with them after they've taken hundreds or even thousands of lives?

    54. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there are no absolutes

    55. Re:Irresponsible? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      It stopped being a risk and became reality as soon as peoples lives were taken.

      That's exactly the kind of piss-poor risk evaluation I'm talking about. Risk isn't binary. You might as well be arguing for trillion dollar war on bees because they kill more people than terrorists do.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    56. Re:Irresponsible? by adamchou · · Score: 1

      You might as well be arguing for trillion dollar war on bees because they kill more people than terrorists do.

      That's exactly the kind of piss-poor sophistry that I would expect out of someone trolling. Bee's aren't trying to kill people. Extremists are. And they continue to launch attacks against us. So how many more attacks do you need to see before the risk is worth the effort for a war?

    57. Re:Irresponsible? by Artemis3 · · Score: 1

      Would you like your country to be bombed with a radioactive dirty bomb? That is what modern day warfare AP bullets do. They remain there, for hundreds of years poisoning anything and everyone. So, not only did you kill thousands in your war, you will still be killing thousands more after you finally give up and leave...

      --
      Artix
      Your Linux, your init.
    58. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that is why we call it war and avoid it at all costs (if we can). unfortunately, _some_ people won't listen, and they need the motivation of bombs to get them to the negotiating table.

      THIS IS WHAT AMERICANS ACTUALLY BELIEVE

    59. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was not aware George Bush was in charge of NATO. Thanks for the info... Maybe you should take a logic class?

    60. Re:Irresponsible? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I'd say its more to maintain peace and democracy in the State.

      I fail to see how the ongoing presence of NATO forces in Afghanistan helps maintain peace and democracy in the State. The latter, in particular, given that there is precious little of it in practice. NATO is simply supporting one side (slightly less Islamist, though they do make up for it in other departments) in a civil war against another side.

    61. Re:Irresponsible? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Bee's aren't trying to kill people. Extremists are

      Been down this road before your point always dead-ends because bees kill us just as dead as terrorists do and there is nothing we can do about it. "Nothing!" you want to exclaim, you can choose to avoid bees, you can't avoid terrorists because they are out to get you! Sure you can try, but bees still kill people, usually people who are allergic to them and are trying to avoid them. Shit still happens.

      So how many more attacks do you need to see before the risk is worth the effort for a war?

      How about starting at more innocent people than the war will kill?

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    62. Re:Irresponsible? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The Nazis and Imperial Japanese wanted a fight, they wanted war. We gave them a fight. We gave them war. The civilized world grabbed them by the back of their head and face fucked them with our big warcock until they choked on it and threw up on themselves, then we made them lick up the mess they made until they begged us to stop.

      In case of Japanese, the actual government has attacked US, not some solo guy. In case of German Nazis, US didn't declare war on them - they declared war on US, because their treaty with Japan required them to.

      Setting aside your "warcock" fetishes, I wonder if your definition of "civilized world" back then includes USSR under Stalin - because it was that country which contributed most to victory, both in terms of Axis body count, and in terms of their own.

    63. Re:Irresponsible? by adamchou · · Score: 1

      because the extremists in Afghanistan are too busy fighting NATO forces instead of figuring out ways they can blow up people in the countries that NATO represents. Do you believe that if Bin Laden was never ousted out of Afghanistan, that we would have had the same number or less attacks on NATO countries?

    64. Re:Irresponsible? by adamchou · · Score: 1

      bees kill us just as dead as terrorists do and there is nothing we can do about it

      EXACTLY. There is nothing we can do about bee's killing us but there is something we can do about terrorists killing us and that's kill them first.

      How about starting at more innocent people than the war will kill?

      Right, so if we end the war and the total number of innocent people being killed decreased but that caused an increase in innocents killed at home, you'd be ok with it?

    65. Re:Irresponsible? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2

      Yes, I do believe just that. Going into Afghanistan (and, to a greater extent, Iraq) was stirring the hornet's nest - it became a staple of Islamist propaganda that "Western crusaders have come to fight Muslims in their lands", which, by Islamic law, requires that all able males should join the jihad until the invasion is repelled. God knows how many people who'd otherwise stay home they manage to recruit on those premises.

      In addition, Taliban itself, while extremist, was directed mainly inside the country, not outside, with the exception of Pakistan. I don't know if their leaders had some long term plan of "world-wide Caliphate", but pragmatically they were clearly busy with making an "ideal" Islamic state on the territory that they had controlled; so they were not direct enemies of the West. Once they were attacked, their rhetoric has changed towards "fighting the great Satan" worldwide - and now every Taliban member is a potential suicide bomber.

    66. Re:Irresponsible? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      EXACTLY. There is nothing we can do about bee's killing us but there is something we can do about terrorists killing us and that's kill them first.

      That would be all fine and dandy if killing innocents in the process didn't influence more people to become terrorists.

      Right, so if we end the war and the total number of innocent people being killed decreased but that caused an increase in innocents killed at home, you'd be ok with it?

      Yep.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    67. Re:Irresponsible? by adamchou · · Score: 1

      That would be all fine and dandy if killing innocents in the process didn't influence more people to become terrorists.

      If that's your mentality, then we're completely justified in terrorizing Afghanistan because they attacked our innocents on 9/11 first.

      Yep.

      Lets see how you feel about that after your friends and family end up being the ones killed. No thanks. I'd rather their innocents die than mine.

    68. Re:Irresponsible? by adamchou · · Score: 1

      I'll give you that Iraq did stir the hornet's nest. That war was unnecessary. But the Taliban attacked us first on 9/11. In fact, we only responded after 9/11. They've been attacking us for many years before that. They made themselves direct enemies of the west.

    69. Re:Irresponsible? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Taliban did not attack you in 9/11, bin Laden did. Bin Laden is not the same as Taliban, though he did find refuge on territory controlled by them.

      Officially, the "crime" of Taliban which triggered the invasion was that they refused to unconditionally hand bin Laden over to US when Bush demanded him from them, citing that evidence linking him to 9/11 was tenuous at best and not grounds for his extradition (remember, this was before he officially took responsibility).

    70. Re:Irresponsible? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      If that's your mentality, then we're completely justified in terrorizing Afghanistan because they attacked our innocents on 9/11 first.

      It's not a desire it's an observation.

      Lets see how you feel about that after your friends and family end up being the ones killed. No thanks. I'd rather their innocents die than mine.

      Yep, you are a tribalist. That's usually how these arguuments play out. The thing is, tribalism is pretty much in opposition of basic american ideals like egalitarianism.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    71. Re:Irresponsible? by adamchou · · Score: 1

      So what if its an observation? They attacked became terrorists before we attacked them and they preemptively attacked us first. We were justified in going into Afghanistan and we were right in doing so. Call me a tribalist or whatever you want but one aspect of egalitarianism is the right to live in peace. If they're going to go off attacking us and taking away or peace, then we have the right to defend our basic American ideals. The fact that you would rather watch your countrymen die at the hands of a terrorist than to watch the terrorist die is extremely bothersome. I seriously question your sense of patriotism and whether you even belong in this country.

    72. Re:Irresponsible? by adamchou · · Score: 1

      My mistake, you are right. I meant to say Al Qaida attacked us first on 9/11. Nevertheless, my point is still the same. They provoked us to go there.

    73. Re:Irresponsible? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      So what if its an observation?

      Because it isn't about being justified, it's about being effective.
      Creating more terrorists is not an effective way to stop terrorism.
      Revenge at all costs is pretty much the definition of not level-headed.

      The fact that you would rather watch your countrymen die at the hands of a terrorist than to watch the terrorist die is extremely bothersome.

      Yep, straight out of the tribalist playbook, give up all pretense of rational argument. All I've ever talked about was the killing of innocents. I don't think there is anything more that I can contribute to this discussion.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    74. Re:Irresponsible? by adamchou · · Score: 1

      Arguing effectiveness is all hypothetical. You don't think what's going on has thwarted their efforts to attack us but I do. You can't prove it either way nor can I. And now that I think of it, I don't even see whats wrong with being a tribalist. I have a strong affinity to our nation. Whats wrong with that? And I'll retract my last statement about watching the terrorist die. I misspoke there. I should have said "The fact that you would rather watch your countrymen die at the hands of a terrorist than to watch the countrymen of the terrorist die is extremely bothersome"

    75. Re:Irresponsible? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      I don't even see whats wrong with being a tribalist.

      That's good. At least you aren't afraid to correctly self-identify. I think that you'll find that a LOT of discussions that you have will be far more simple and direct if you just spell out that you have a tribalist world view at the start.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    76. Re:Irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree--this is imperialist murder of Africans--and the stealing of THEIR oil
      people, please email and upload the document everywhere!!
      send to www.millionsmarchharlem.com

  5. What's the point? by OnionFighter · · Score: 1

    So I RTFA. What I didn't see was whether there was a point to it or not, unless it was to point out insecurities.

  6. Irresponsible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since when does the Anonymous care if something they do is irresponsible?

    1. Re:Irresponsible by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "The Anonymous"?

      If anything, it seems that this person/group acting under the guise of the Anonymous logo thinks it would be irresponsible. That doesn't mean that "The Anonymous" thinks that way. Because the next "Anonymous" hacking something might be someone completely different with a different set of morals. If any.

      There is no "The Anonymous". When will people stop to act as if Anonymous is a hierarchic group of people, organized like an average crime syndicate or nation? But then, I shouldn't be surprised, after all "The Al Qaida" has been a staple of the terrorist craze for a decade now without anyone wanting to know that it's mostly a very loosely connected network of people acting. But they at least had a figurehead, Anonymous doesn't even have that.

      And before someone starts crying, no, I don't equate terrorists with Anonymous, I just didn't find a better example. If you have a better parallel for an "organization" without a strict hierarchy, one that is an organization mostly by name rather than concerted, centrally planned action, I'll gladly replace it for that one. The only common ground I can see in Anonymous is a fondness for certain message boards.

      Anonymous is by no means more a group than "the hippies" or "the hackers". Ok, maybe they at least communicate with each other more, I don't know for sure. The point is, yes, they have a more or less common definition of what's right or wrong, with even more lenient edges than the aforementioned groups maybe. I wouldn't even dare to say that they have a common goal. But there certainly ain't no entity that sets a policy or defines rules the others have to adhere to to be part of "The Anonymous". There is no code of conduct or a contract to sign.

      And I wish people would finally realize that. You are not dealing with a homogeneous group of people. At best, you have a lot of individuals and groups that share maybe a more or less common ideal. And even that's something I'm rather unsure about.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Irresponsible by six025 · · Score: 1

      If you have a better parallel for an "organization" without a strict hierarchy, one that is an organization mostly by name rather than concerted, centrally planned action

      News International?

    3. Re:Irresponsible by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      But they at least had a figurehead, Anonymous doesn't even have that.

      Winning with the double entendre.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    4. Re:Irresponsible by miro2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you have a better parallel for an "organization" without a strict hierarchy, one that is an organization mostly by name rather than concerted, centrally planned action, I'll gladly replace it for that one.

      How about sports team fans? I hear Yankees fans gather in message boards, declare a unifying ideology, and even have a logo/banner that they identify themselves with, even in public. There are several official clubs, and spokesmen often issue their rants and decrees on a network of blogs and twitter accounts. They are like a multi-headed hydra. You can try to stop some of their leaders, but other Yankees fans will just pop up to take their place!!!

    5. Re:Irresponsible by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      When will people stop to act as if Anonymous is a hierarchic group of people, organized like an average crime syndicate or nation?

      Probably if it ever becomes important. Whether it is truly an every-changing group, or whether it's the same core of individual people over and over again doesn't really matter when discussing what they've done or whether their actions are irresponsible. As you pointed out "The point is, yes, they have a more or less common definition of what's right or wrong..." Like Al Qaida, there is some consistency to their actions. The structure really doesn't matter to such discussions. "Voters" are an anonymous group of individuals who are not arranged in a hierarchy (decision making hierarchy anyway, the electoral college does mean that some voters are more equal than others in some elections), but you can of course talk about them as a group with certain characteristics. And I daresay that voters as a group are more complex than Anonymous.

      The specific question of "Since when does the Anonymous care if something they do is irresponsible?" is not nonsense as you seem to think it is (even if there's an unnecessary "the" in there). When was the last time their twitter account reflected any sense of responsibility, if that way of phrasing it makes the question clearer?

    6. Re:Irresponsible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anybody got odds on Yankees fans vs. NATO?

    7. Re:Irresponsible by demonbug · · Score: 1

      Anybody got odds on Yankees fans vs. NATO?

      Well, the Yankees have a bigger budget, so they might be able to buy a victory.

      On the other hand, NATO includes Poland, and you can never forget Poland. So there's that.

  7. Not released? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "most would not be published because it would be 'irresponsible.'"

    The Anon's get a conscience? Ha ha! Best laugh I've had all day!

    NATO "restricted" is about a low as you can get on the secrecy scale in NATO docs, it's just a bit short of publishing in public forums! Now when they get hold of docs marked "top secret" or is it the mysterious "J" grading I beileve, then I'll pay attention!

    1. Re:Not released? by PhilHibbs · · Score: 2

      There might only be one person who did the hack and has the documents. Maybe that one person has a conscience.

  8. Irresponsible? by Beautyon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's an interesting idea that it would be 'irresponsible' to release these documents in full.

    I call dropping bombs on innocent people in Afganistan irresponsible. I call killing one million people in Iraq for oil and dollar supremacy irresponsible. If you are going to use conventional, State / MSM thinking to restrict and control your actions, then apply this thinking evenly; the State is dropping bombs on people for the 'greater good' (to 'spread peace and democracy') and so releasing these documents for the greater good of preventing millions of deaths is completely justified and not at all irresponsible. It is in fact, the only responsible thing to do, since more people will be spared a horrible death for no reason, than could possibly be harmed by the release of the information.

    That being said, the documents are under their control, they took the massive risk in getting hold of them and its entirely up to them what they do with them.

    --
    ATH0 Bitcoin: 1DnwFLXczVZV8kLJbMYoheUrpqHesjxrSi
  9. @Anonymous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We don't want your crap.

    Put it on the recycle.bin, or /dev/null

    Thanks (not).

    --Internet.

  10. Why no releases of secrets from potential enemies? by cavehobbit · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Releasing secrets is often good, as many secrets just protect the asses of corrupt vested interests. But why do we see no releases of secrets from potential threats to free societies? Like China, various idiot countries like N. Korea, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc? Just sayin'...

  11. Not irresponsible, useless by Lieutenant_Dan · · Score: 2

    Funny, whenever some talks about the bytes obtained rather than the number of documents, it tends to indicate that the information obtained was useless. Perhaps they found a 700MB Access file with the commercial ship traffic in the Atlantic Ocean.

    Chances are it's not important what they found. NATO is a collection of countries with diverging view (e.g. Turkey&Greece, France&UK&US) and with a lot of attention-seeking military personnel who have been shunted to this multi-national effort. Anything juicy or of significance would have been exploited by internal personnel a long time ago.

    --
    Wearing pants should always be optional.
    1. Re:Not irresponsible, useless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Useless is accurate. People are too conditioned by movies about the lingo surrounding sensitive documents. 'Restricted' is one security level above for-sale adds on the office bulletin board and local public affairs press releases. The most scandalous thing you'll find is perhaps budgetary specifics/problems, or that Fort-so-and-so has problems with their sewer system.

  12. Not irresponsible by benjfowler · · Score: 1

    NOT IRRESPONSIBLE AT ALL.

  13. "NATO Restricted" = US FOUO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    FWIW, this is not a classified document. NATO restricted is the equivalent of US UNCLASSIFIED//FOUO.

    While any release of restricted information is not helpful to NATO, please keep this in perspective -- this is the equivalent of an unauthorized release of an office memo.

  14. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Maybe they got better security in place?

    A lot of the Anon hacks seem to rely on simple SQL injection and other exploits. Could it be that these countries (aside of NKor, which probably is not connected to the internet at all) have better security standards in place?

    They might not consider a budget that big of an issue when dealing with petty things like security.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  15. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by somersault · · Score: 1

    Because they're not "technologically advanced" enough to digitise their top secret files and make them available to any interested script kiddies?

    --
    which is totally what she said
  16. Who are you to question Anonymous? by adamchou · · Score: 1

    Tired of people saying its not irresponsible and they should post the rest of the documents. You don't know what the rest of the documents are. Maybe the documents are an assessment on whats the best way is to acquire and sneak a nuclear device into your country. Do us a favor and stop speaking out of ignorance.

    1. Re:Who are you to question Anonymous? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let us assume that you are right and the documents are in fact an assessment on whats the best way is to acquire and sneak a nuclear device into my country. (Where the latter part probably is something like loading it in a van and drive over the border.)
      By not publishing the documents this particular security issue will not be dealt with and anyone who has the same resources as the one who wrote the document will be able to do that. (Or have access to a geek in a basement that knows how to do SQL injections, either will do.)
      By publishing the documents there will be a pressure to fix this issue.

      If the documents do contain the information you suggested then it is highly irresponsible to not publish them since this allows for continued negligence in a matter of national security.

  17. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Iran never tries to put down free speech or illegally imprisons people for rallying for freedom. They definitely would not kill or torture such people. Nothing to see here folks. Move along and keep hacking the US. Yep.

  18. Troop Numbers by Tempest451 · · Score: 1

    I guess they actually draw the line at actually sensitive information. Troop numbers and movement information cost lives. I doesn't matter, the bolder they get the more severe the charges will be when they get caught. I am waiting for the first executions on the grounds of treason.

  19. Anonymous: Internet's worst enemy? by jimicus · · Score: 2

    I reckon Anonymous could turn out to be the modern Internet's worst enemy.

    Before you flame me, hear me out.

    Historically, first-world politicians have not really understood the Internet. What they have understood is that while it's a fantastically useful tool, it has aspects that (to society as a whole) are less desirable. Child porn is the obvious one that gets banded about fairly regularly, but by regularly hacking high-profile targets, Anonymous are practically guaranteeing that national security will also wind up on the political radar.

    Many on /. will say "Well then, the likes of NATO should hire someone better to secure their networks" - and while there may be some logic to that, I can see a lot of politicians suggesting a rather different solution - one involving censorship and tracking people online. We pretend that the Internet is immune to much of this, but China, Iran and Tunisia have proven that this is not true.

    What we have here is the technological equivalent of a bunch of kids causing a great deal of disturbance in their school lunch hall - and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see it dealt with using the age-old technique of "If we can't figure out who the troublemakers are, we'll instigate a bunch of new rules which inconvenience everyone."

    1. Re:Anonymous: Internet's worst enemy? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      What you're saying is not that Anon are the Internet's worst enemy, but rather than they might, by their action, draw attention of those who can potentially become that worst enemy.

    2. Re:Anonymous: Internet's worst enemy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The internet is its own worst enemy. Looking at the end result, this is true, but it's important to consider who actually imposes such restrictions, and what can be done to prevent this.

    3. Re:Anonymous: Internet's worst enemy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Under the current rules Anon is untouchable. Their opposition will eventually change or break those rules to protect themselves or find Anon.

      However if this break causes too much loss of freedom it might wake the sleeping giant which is the American people. Might not be a bad thing.

  20. Nice to see the KKK alive and well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The KKK started as a group of men bullying delinquent-men who weren't taking care of their wife, kids, family.

    E.g. Frustrated men who took the law into their own hands.

    Help eliminate stupid speeding tickets.

  21. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 1

    Could it be that these countries (aside of NKor, which probably is not connected to the internet at all) have better security standards in place?

    Or maybe the penalties for violating security are a little more severe?

    --
    "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
  22. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by cpghost · · Score: 1

    Maybe they're not storing everything on computers? Or maybe they didn't trust a US-based closed-source software vendor with their secrets and preferred to use a harder-to-hack OS instead?

    --
    cpghost at Cordula's Web.
  23. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    But why do we see no releases of secrets from potential threats to free societies? Like China, various idiot countries like N. Korea, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc?

    The world is a complex and deceitful beast.

    I suspect you're from the US. The French (especially their companies) may not have the same opinion about Iran. Spain may feel differently about Venezuela. China is the "new Soviet Union" (tm); NATO would most likely not confront or expose them directly especially when Western Europe and the US are competing for the same oil fields, grain, and minerals across the world.

  24. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    because that stuff isn't in english

  25. Boring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    How boring. Put your skills to real use.

  26. Here's what I love by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

    Now that we've established that private individuals can hack real secrets out of the government, how fun would it be to plant false information among the nuggets of truth? Nothing outlandish like aliens and mind-control, I mean stuff that's completely plausible and realistic but you would require proof of it being real. For example, I think it would be completely awesome if they leaked something about a special group taking care of "Renegade's Kenya question." The Birthers would splooge all over themselves at that!

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
  27. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by rvw · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Releasing secrets is often good, as many secrets just protect the asses of corrupt vested interests.
    But why do we see no releases of secrets from potential threats to free societies?
    Like China, various idiot countries like N. Korea, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc?

    Because those secrets are not in English. So it's harder to find them. You need Chinese speaking people to enter those systems. Even if their servers are linux or windows based, still you need to know where to look. So you think you can just download a user directory, or download all word-documents. True, but you still need to be on the right server. And then, if you have those documents, you need to translate them to English, to gain the attention of the West.

    All those non-latin languages, forget about it if you cannot read them. English is still the language where it all happens.

  28. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by Xest · · Score: 2

    A few points:

    - If hacks rely on social engineering, or even being able to understand what a page, for example, an admin page, is saying to figure out whether there's something you an exploit there, then language may be a massive barrier. Then even if they did leak it their Western audience wouldn't be able to understand it. It's challenge enough trawling through a dump of Western documents when you know the language to spot something important, let alone in a foreign language. Let those who know that language deal with that.

    - The West is much more interested in documenting things because it believes it's the right thing to do in terms of accountability, but then never follows through on releasing said documents in response to controversal incidents and covers it up anyway- effectively it often becomes a box ticking exercise, to say "We're transparent and accountable". Other nations like Iran, North Korea etc. just drop the charade and don't even waste their time pretending to be accountable/transparent, or at least don't bother digitising everything

    - There have been some foreign leaks, IIRC anonymous grabbed about 10,000 Iranian interior ministry files or similar not so long ago.

    - These hackers are really mainly just interested in cleaning up their own backyard first- they're sick of government encroachment on their lives, or government spending their tax dollars on wars the citizens of said nation don't really agree with etc. and want to deal with that primarily.

  29. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

    Or maybe nobody would be really "suprised" hearing about human rights violations by North Korea, and all such a publication of documents would cause is answers of "well, water is wet, what did you expect"? No hacker worth his salt would volunteer losing time for such a let-down. Better try to embarass countries which are supposed to be democratic...

  30. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by PhilHibbs · · Score: 2

    Why would a hacker in New Jersey or Finland care about the penalties for violating Chinese state security?

  31. Because most Anon's aren't American. by elucido · · Score: 1, Interesting

    It should be obvious that most Anon's are foreign nationals, or from places like Europe, China, Russia, etc.

    Most Anon's are focused only on hacking the US/Western establishment. That being said there have been Anon's who were American nationals.

  32. Anon could be controlled by foreign nationals. by elucido · · Score: 1

    Which would explain why the US government is usually the target.

  33. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Because they're not "technologically advanced" enough to digitise their top secret files

    Arrogance will be the fall of the Western Hemisphere.

    Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, and Iran have a lot more capability (and money) than you realize. The first two have the ability to seriously harm your US economy is they threw hissy fit (OPEC).

    Please smarten up.

  34. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Releasing secrets is often good, as many secrets just protect the asses of corrupt vested interests.
    But why do we see no releases of secrets from potential threats to free societies?
    Like China, various idiot countries like N. Korea, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc?

    Just sayin'...

    Actually, Wikileaks did just that, and I don't think it's entirely coincidental that the Arab Spring uprising followed shortly afterwards.

    A lot of dirt got exposed to the light of day, and while there were few "smoking guns", a number of suspicions were confirmed. The US made such a big deal about THEIR secrets, but we can stand some embarrassment. And should, to keep us humble.

    Countries which are less free can't afford to be embarrassed, though. It destroys what little credibility they could claim, and despots aren't big on any humor that doesn't involve battery cables, simulated drowning, and so forth.

  35. The problem is, what is more irresponsible? by Shivetya · · Score: 3, Informative

    The problem with your examples, all but is very vague, is that there are at least two sides to every story.

    In the case of your specific claim, I am quite sure that NATO does not purposefully target innocent people in any country. If anything it is because it is so uncommon for them to kill a large number of innocent civilians that it gets so much press. The greater good is not always about "spreading peace and democracy" ... the greater good can be also removing the ability of a specific aggressor to continue their ways.

    So it is not completely justified to releasing all documents. Some yes, but not all. We read the results of the Afghan dump which revealed sources of intel and such, was that responsible? I think not.

    Your openly declaring that there is no reason behind the deaths caused by NATO. I say there is justifiable reason, it all comes down to. Are we protecting a greater good. Yes there are going to be accidental deaths and those are to be regretted. But does the possibility of accidental deaths excuse of from acting to prevent hundreds if not thousands of deaths?

    Tell me, when does it become responsible to ignore genocide or mass murder? How many have to die before its not irresponsible for NATO or America to act? I am curious as to the limits. We ignored hundreds of thousands of Africans dieing in the 90s, we do it even to this day for the most part completely glossing over the violence in Sudan and Ethiopia. We seem quite content to ignore the hundreds dieing in Syria and no one bats an eye at what goes on in Lebanon.

    Flame on, I have karma to burn. Strawmen and hyperbole are all you are.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
    1. Re:The problem is, what is more irresponsible? by Artemis3 · · Score: 1

      NATO did target knowingly clear civilian buildings, including hospitals and schools in Tripoli. Of course nothing can be worse than operation cast lead against Gaza, but still (at least Libyans are not walled and sieged off...) .

      In fact Nato quickly ran out of military targets and don't know what else to blow to justify the war, so they increase civilian toll by going after whats left of the civilian infrastructure.

      --
      Artix
      Your Linux, your init.
    2. Re:The problem is, what is more irresponsible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In fact Artemis3 quickly ran out of facts and evidence and didn't know what else to blow out of proportion to justify his slanted view, so he increased absurdity by making up a bunch of random shit.

      FTFY

    3. Re:The problem is, what is more irresponsible? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      While I'm not a proponent of NATO intervention in Libya, this doesn't make any sense at all:

      In fact Nato quickly ran out of military targets and don't know what else to blow to justify the war, so they increase civilian toll by going after whats left of the civilian infrastructure.

      If NATO ran out of military targets, then how come the rebels aren't waving flags in Tripoli yet?

      If you want a better example, Kosovo war has plenty to offer. Though there the usual approach was classifying civilian targets as "dual-purpose" - as was the case with Belgrade TV station, and the railway bridge in Grdelica.

      But I don't think that NATO hit that hospital in Tripoli on purpose. More likely that it was a genuine mistake, though of course that does not excuse it insofar as the original goal is not worth the price.

  36. Hastening the demise of freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All these attacks do is ensure there will be less and less 'freedom' in the future. All these anarchists will achieve is creating more and more laws to squash freedom just like the Patriot Act. We'll get something 10x worse when they feed some bullshit law down on us.

    And for those saying these are 'secret' documents. These are 'restricted' which is much different than secret or top secret documents. Restricted documents are only one notch above unclassified information. So basically any that makes a reference to something that may in some way mean something useful, they tag restricted. 99% of the information in that document and the other 1GB of documents is all normal unclassified BS. This is much ado about nothing.

  37. Particular selection is more irresponsible by Spiked_Three · · Score: 1

    As soon as anyone starts choosing and picking what they release to the public, then they are doing the exact thing as those who hide the information. If your are going to break a law (no arguments as to whether it should be a law or not, but it is) then decide to only post the part that tells the story you want told, then it is clear you have an agenda, and it is no longer about letting the information be free. if people get hurt because of it, well then maybe none of it should have been published. as of now, the only thing anonymous stands for is whining.

    --
    slashdot troll = you make a compelling argument I do not like the implications of.
    1. Re:Particular selection is more irresponsible by Que914 · · Score: 1

      The agenda seems to be exposing corruption, something a lack of transparency has a big role in promoting. As much of a fan as I am of Wikileaks, Anonymous on most days, there are legitimate reasons to keep certain pieces of information from the public. Wikileaks seams to have a good understanding of this idea, and it seems like at least some members of Anonymous may be exercising the same kind of discretion.

      As an interesting aside, at least in the US, the only information that actually should be hidden falls under 'Classified'. The DoD has eight different reasons they can call information classified, which cover every legitimate use case for keeping information from the public. If someone says it's classified, there's probably a good reason you shouldn't know, if someone says it's a "State Secret", they're trying to hide something embarrassing or illegal.

    2. Re:Particular selection is more irresponsible by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      there are legitimate reasons to keep certain pieces of information from the public.

      No there are not. The problem is that you think secrets must exist in order for diplomacy to work. What if all those secret diplomatic meetings, and back-room deals were made public? Are you truly saying that it's necessary to express our political agenda publicly -- to the people --, but then to have lies, secrets and agendas that do not abide by the previously expressed stances?

      It's people thinking like you that ensure we can never control our own governments. Additionally: Military secrets should be kept secret before they are carried out. A brief while after a military operation is performed, (IN PUBLIC), should it not be a matter of public record? Keeping the horrors of war from the people is EVIL. It allows heinous acts that none would condone to continue. How else can we judge whether we should further support a militaristic effort?

      The fact that the common man has no idea what's really going on in the world and has no way of finding out is unacceptable -- We only have a vague sense that it's out of our control and there is widespread corruption afoot. How can we weigh our choices for leaders and representatives if we are prohibited from knowing how well or poorly they're doing their jobs.

      If a not-so ethical deal must be made with a foreign official, then let it be known. If it was truly a necessary act the public will understand -- Provided that the relevant truths are known to us so that we may understand what necessitated the questionable act.

      The truth is all or nothing. You can't share bits and pieces of truthy and keep the majority secret, then hope the people of the world to understand your actions -- They will be frustrated by the lack of supporting truths and you will be frustrated by the lack of trust and cooperation. However, you also can not operate above the law if the people can hold you accountable for your actions.

      You sir, and those like you, sicken me. You are enemies of the truth -- A truth the people actually can handle, if only it is consistently made fully public.

  38. "Irresponsible"? by theIsovist · · Score: 2

    'AnonymousIRC' Twitter handle that it has 1GB of material from NATO but said that most would not be published because it would be 'irresponsible.'"

    I often wonder if the real reason they don't post these documents is that they are simply not interesting. Lulzsec and Anonymous are both quick to say that they've hacked into servers, and as they've shown, they've been very good at exploiting holes. However, they seem to be finding holes into low level information, and the "scandal" they find is generally nothing more than mundane information. Do you recall Chinga La Migra? They released tons of personal emails against the Arizona police department, and the only thing that these emails showed is that they were a pretty normal operation, including the fact that this department, too, hires idiots who like to send chain mail through email. So in the end, they found a few gigs of unprotected email, bragged about it, and never bothered to realize that this wonderful treasure trove of information was essentially trash. At best, they created harassment for the officers who, as far as the documents show, weren't involved in anything illegal. The most damaging release of information so far has been usernames and passwords of a porn site, which only exposed the dangers of having the same log in and password information for multiple sites.

    1. Re:"Irresponsible"? by matt007 · · Score: 1

      exactly my thoughts.
      I am still hoping something serious comes from anonymous. so far what we saw is negligible compared to their mission statement....
      the whole thing might very well be counter productive. a lot of talks about something minor about internet might help new regulations appearing.

    2. Re:"Irresponsible"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This.

      The US government and NATO both have separate physical networks for information that is actually classified Top Secret. They are not accessible via the Internet. All Anonymous will do is expose some "Confidential" or FOUO level information, which is mostly meaningless. The only way to get the real stuff is to have a security clearance, like Bradley Manning had, and be at a secure facility.

    3. Re:"Irresponsible"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, not exactly. Chingra La Migra contained some interesting stuff; CALEA instructions, Very very terrible photographs, psychological propaganda, and briefings. Admittedly nothing epic, but more than "just emails".

    4. Re:"Irresponsible"? by JohnnyComeLately · · Score: 1

      Yes. I started to post, but then held back. Seeing your comment made me decide to go ahead and reply. There is nothing interesting about the ISAF HQ document. As a matter of fact, it's no longer implemented the same way. I've worked there, and since 2007 they've moved most of the tactical role from the HQ ISAF over to KAIA's IJC, where the 3-Star runs the day to day ops. HQ is now able to strategically look "outward" and concentrate on how to make COIN effective. So a command and control from HQ would no longer be really relevent or even useful to our enemies...unless, as we did with the Space Shuttle, we're duping them into an inefficient way (in this case, of how to run a war).

    5. Re:"Irresponsible"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly

  39. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by Fred+Ferrigno · · Score: 1

    Slashdot had an article not too long ago saying China's defensive security is actually quite bad. China has a huge bureaucracy that provides many opportunities for people to screw up security so inevitably they do.

    The researcher quoted in the article attributes the lack of attention to the language barrier. English-speaking script kiddies doing a mass search for SQL injection vulnerabilities won't even know what they've found if they manage to break into a Chinese government website.

    Still, the researcher himself has found and publicized several vulnerabilities in Chinese government websites, so I think the other aspect of this is just the attention paid by the media. If Anonymous hacks NATO, that fits into an ongoing news narrative about "The US Government vs. Hacktivists". If a white hat responsibly discloses a bug in Chinese SCADA systems, it won't make any headlines.

  40. Anonymous = bs by bender183 · · Score: 1

    Ok seriously.....they aren't releasing all the documents because it would be irresponsible? Do those words sounds like the words of a suicide hacker to you? Or the words of a badly trained actor pretending to be a suicide hacker? Only a suicide hacker would go after the US government. I have read the laws pertaining to internet hacking for the US (Or as much as I could since it was written in some strange form of english called legaleeze) And the laws are so extreme that you could go to jail for even pinging a US government server. Does anyone else see the rather large gaps in logic here?

  41. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

    Western democracies are less likely (though it does happen) to use an extrajudicial method against troublemakers overseas so long as they don't constitute a material threat. However that sort of attitude is not so true of totalitarian autocracies with terrible human rights records. If somebody managed to upset China enough, an agent or mercenary might find a way for the hacker to have a 'tragic accident'.

    --
    I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
  42. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps targetting western governments like this is their attempt at improving them. Doesn't seem to far fetched. NATO is doing the same in Libya, but with bombs. And does anyone believe the Taliban fight just because they like to hurt people?
    It's just a radical form of "affirmative action"

  43. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by somersault · · Score: 1

    First, I'm not American, nor do I live in the US.

    Second, my post was just a joke, which managed to fly way, way over your head apparently. While we're talking about "smartening up", please go and read up on the uses of quotation marks, and the definition of irony before reading my previous post. Then read them again and read your own post. Then hang your head in shame.

    --
    which is totally what she said
  44. More vaporware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is at least the second time they've done this. They announced they would released Sun/News of the World/News International but then they back down.

    This "just wait till you see what we have" is getting old fast. It's not a good symptom at all, it reminds me of when Julian Assange announced Wikileaks was "about" to release documents from a major American bank. Turned out it was just an empty threat - probably not what the whistle-blower who leaked the documents to Wikileaks had in mind.

    I have a lot of admiration for some of the things Anonymous and Wikileaks have done, but they're both drunk on their own fame now. They need to sober up and keep their inflated sense of self importance in check. It would make them a lot more efficient.

    Don't tell us you have important data/documents, either release or shut up. What ever happened to "Anonymous delivers"?

  45. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1

    To further expand on the China scenario specifically, one of the few places where there are both persons with the requisite technical skill and the political passion to oppose the CCP directly is Taiwan. However, the Taiwanese, even independence extremists, know that if they publicly hacked and released secrets from the Chinese mainland it would quickly be used by the Chinese as a pretense for war. Many would die and Taiwanese autonomy would be crushed, and if the US actually went through with OPLAN 5077 it could damn well bring about WW3.

    The stakes for hacking China are much higher for something which is ultimately less interesting. As callous as it is, everybody already knows China is doing bad things to otherwise innocent people, so there is not really any surprise to reveal. However, if all their dirty laundry were aired, it might provoke a disproportionate response, either personally in an extrajudicial attack to punish the hacker(s), or geopolitically to the point of even open war.

    --
    I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
  46. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    I'd bet it's more likely that most Anon hackers don't read Korean, Chinese, or Russian, which is kind of important if you want to make sure you are stealing important documents, and not a PDF format of "Gone With the Wind," or really even to know what computer you hacked into.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  47. Irresponsible maybe for themselfes by cm017510 · · Score: 1

    Who really cares about budget and equipment outlays from Nato. These Anonymous guys are probably not dumb and know when a story gets to big. Maybe they ARE clever enough to remain undetected (I doubt that), but even then it's surely not a good feeling walking around and knowing the military is after you because you just unfolded the next two or three strategic operations. Thats not fun anymore.

  48. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Ummm... how about "Hey guys, here's what we found, anyone able to translate it?"

    For centuries, people have put their faith in the heavens, why shouldn't we have faith in the cloud just because we're atheists? :)

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  49. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Possibly because none of these hackers actually speaks those languages which would make figuring out what they were actually going after very difficult.

  50. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    It's not a matter of should they hack foreign government websites, but so far it seems lulzSec/anon hasn't hacked ANY foreign language website. There is no particular reason to be afraid of McDonald's Taiwan, so I assume mainly they choose their targets based on the language they understand, English; not because of a fear of a foreign government that poisons with Polonium.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  51. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by npsimons · · Score: 1

    (aside of NKor, which probably is not connected to the internet at all)

    That's actually a valid security approach; US DoD uses it all the time.

  52. but what if these documents contain instructions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For making weapons that can destroy city blocks . Then any idiot could become a death ray of violence.

  53. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  54. Hmmmm.. by PhilJC · · Score: 1

    Who the f**k are Anonymous? Oh wait...

  55. It's not well protected by Quila · · Score: 3, Informative

    NATO RESTRICTED is about the same level as For Official Use Only in the US. You don't even need a security clearance to get access.

    1. Re:It's not well protected by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Heck, you can find NATO RESTRICTED documents on eBay. (I saw a flight manual for the Eurofighter Typhoon up for sale. On one of the photos was a shot of the cover page, with NATO RESTRICTED plastered on it).

  56. Re:Why no releases of secrets from [...] enemies? by MartinSchou · · Score: 1

    Do you read Chinese? How about Korean? Spanish? Arabic? Farsi? If you don't, why do you assume the people in Anonymous do?

    But - here's a completely different motive. I'll let you guess where I plucked this from:

    "I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic"

    Domestic enemies are not just armed criminals. I, for one, have a hard time looking at the banking scandal as a friendly action.

    Now, you may argue that it was accidental, but considering what has been put forth about it, that is a bit like putting up a mine field, putting toddlers in said mine field and then saying "woops", whenever you hear a loud noise.

    Sony ... well, they seemed intent on being greedy and careless - sort of like the bankers. NATO ... well, not everyone agrees that the US should be in NATO, or rather that the rest of NATO should up their involvement rather than relying on the US to shoulder the burden.

    Or maybe they just like to watch the world burn, and it's hard to find a bigger flammable target than the US.

    On a completely different tangent - the biggest threat to free societies aren't external, they are internal.
    * Who decided you had to take off your shoes while going through airport security?
    * Who decided that you aren't allowed to bring liquids?
    * Who decided that you should be arrested at the airport, if you don't want to be groped or subjected to essentially nude photography, just because you decided, on a whim, to go flying a few hours before arriving at the airport?
    * Who decided that you need to be detained, questioned and treated like a criminal, just because you have a lump of cash on us?
    * Who decided that you should be labeled as a sex offender for life, because you took a nude picture of yourself and gave it to your boyfriend or girlfriend? The same boyfriend or girlfriend that you are legally allowed to fuck no less! You can fuck them, but don't look at it, don't sketch it, don't write about it, don't tell anyone about it.

    Those are really big encroachment on your freedoms, and none of them came from external enemies.

  57. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would guess that most of the people carrying out the attacks are English speakers. They might not be too hot on Korean or Arabic.

  58. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Releasing secrets is often good, as many secrets just protect the asses of corrupt vested interests.
    But why do we see no releases of secrets from potential threats to free societies?
    Like China, various idiot countries like N. Korea, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc?

    Just sayin'...

    You forgot to mention the US in that list of yours.
    While those countries in the list minus US have secrets, they don't have as many as the US, since they don't have their nose stuck in so many layers of s*it, which a lot of it is produced on its own.

  59. what exact law are they breaking? by decora · · Score: 1

    NATO is an international organization. what law do they operate under? what court system recognizes it?

    what, exactly, is the alleged crime here?

    NATO is not a part of the US government. Would NATO be covered under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act? I dont think so.

    1. Re:what exact law are they breaking? by Threni · · Score: 2

      Quick reminder - laws are for governments and large organisations to keep the peasants in order. Did anyone get prosecuted when the french bombed the Greenpeace boat, killing people? No.

      The countries which make up Nato can do what they like, when they like.

  60. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, you're saying that the CIA is not responsible for a fair share of 'tragic accidents', operating "tour agencies" for a long, long "vacation" in guantanamo, or forcing regime change in roughly 50 countries, 30 of them democratically elected.

  61. what if killing thousands of civilians by decora · · Score: 1

    embitters them and causes a wave of mass popular support for terrorist groups?

    oh right i forgot. all of NATO's airstrikes are with 'smart bombs', nobody ever dies unless they are bad.

    and the population loves NATO for doing this.

  62. To put this in perspective : by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Lancet survey reported 601,027"

    and

    "Anyway, considering all the evidence, it seems likely that less than one million people died in Iraq as a result of the US intervention. (not taking into account the first Gulf War)"


    Ignoring at first the Irak body count which is very conservative in its counting, since irak population is around 35 million, we are speaking of anywhere between 1.8% to 3% of the population died. For those in the US / Europe, imagine that from all your neighbor/family, 1 out of 55 died, or at worst 1 out of 33. Saddam did not directly order a kill or torture anywhere near that number. Now imagine how pissed off you would be at the country having started the killing, and marked many of you off as "collateral damage" while that country was not even being targeted by fake WMD by yours to begin with.


    Now maybe you are near to understand why some of us said that the war of Irak generated a breeding ground for terrorist wanting to recruit people hating the USA for what they did to them/friend/neighbor/family. It did not increase world wide security, it decreased it severely.

  63. yes. wikileaks has caused so many deaths. by decora · · Score: 1

    billions of innocent people got killed, all thanks to Julian Assange. i mean, evidence is all over the place. just go to JulianAssangeBodyCount.net

    there you can watch video of a Wikileaks helicopter gunship killing a bunch of civilians.

    1. Re:yes. wikileaks has caused so many deaths. by the_one(2) · · Score: 1

      That has nothing at all to do with what your parent said. And wikileaks censored the documents they released...

  64. and suicide bombers? by decora · · Score: 1

    somehow i dont think that killing a suicide bomber is going to get their allies to the negotiating table.

  65. yes. just another 10 years is all we need by decora · · Score: 1

    whatever NATO is doing, its working perfectly!

    just another ten years is all they need before they finally eliminate terrorists from afghanistan.

    if only it weren't for Wikileaks. i mean, look at how many innocent civilians have been killed in the war, then compare it to the millions killed by Julian Assange.

  66. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ummm... how about "Hey guys, here's what we found, anyone able to translate it?"

    $ cat /etc/hosts
    127.0.0.1 localhost
    127.0.0.2 lasershark
    127.0.0.3 coffebreak

    A blackhat who speaks only English has enough information here to make an educated guess as to which server looks like it might contain data worth One Beelyun Dollars, and which one is more likely to host the company cafeteria menu.

    If those host names were entirely in Chinese, all he can do is yell "throw me a frickin' bone" and guess.

    Unfortunately, the reverse doesn't hold up nearly as well: a Chinese blackhat, even one who speaks no English whatsoever, knows simply by virtue of having used a computer for a few years, that a big file named "core" is (probably) less interesting than a big file named ".tar.gz", even if he doesn't know about "core memory", "tape archives", GNU, or the .z as a birdflip to the .Z extension associated from the patent-encumbered UNIX "compress" program.

  67. Eisenhower disagrees by decora · · Score: 1

    Ike was the commander of allied forces during WWII.

    he warned us about the military industrial complex influencing our policy.

    i think he knew what he was talking about.

  68. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

    Why would a hacker in England care about the penalties for violating US state security? Oh, wait...

    I wouldn't trust the UK not to extradite me to China.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  69. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by black+soap · · Score: 1

    Or maybe Anonymous isn't as good at SQL injection in Chinese?

  70. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by couchslug · · Score: 1

    "But why do we see no releases of secrets from potential threats to free societies? Like China, various idiot countries like N. Korea, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc? Just sayin'..."

    Because they are serious about deterring leaks and will do Bad Things to leakers.

    Compared to their methods, Gitmo is a joke.

    --
    "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  71. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Like China, various idiot countries like N. Korea, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc?

    How many (non-CIA-affiliated) western hackers do you think can read Arabic, let alone Korean and Farsi?

    Anonymous may have some terrific hackers, but these guys probably couldn't tell TOP SECRET from TODAY'S CAFETERIA MENU if it's written in Korean.

  72. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by Artemis3 · · Score: 1

    There is no bigger idiot, and no bigger threat to world peace than the US, And Nato is one of their tools. For months, civilians dying in Libya are the result of Nato bombing "to protect civilians" (by killing them), bombing their schools, hospitals, homes, rebels, etc. The same can be said of many other places everywhere the US puts its nose.

    N. Korea is isolated and does no harm unless messed with, such as doing stupid and unnecessary war games in front of them...

    Venezuela is simply trading with those willing to. The US banned military sales? Well the Russians didn't; plus others are willing to transfer their technology unlike US corporations. Free market you know...

    The Saudi monarchy is the biggest US ally in the middle east, freedom to the people is not important as long as they play... Just like nuclear weapons backed Pakistan.

    Iran, without nuclear weapons, is constantly being harassed, and even sabotaged, inline to an Israeli agenda; has proven respectful to other countries, unlike Nato, has not invaded or attacked anyone and only threatens those who threaten.

    Anonymous has not been targeted by any of those countries you mention, the US has. You do pick your enemies...

    If the US doesn't like a government, it is none of their business meddling with. Its the people living there and only theirs. But the US has a global policy of interfering every nation in the planet (even allies), as shown by the wikileaks evidence; thus perpetuating conflict.

    IMO, the US should be kicked out of the UN (for debt), and the headquarters moved to neutral grounds elsewhere. Then, as the entire world sides rightfully against the US, some sort of balance can be restored. Otherwise its up to the Chinese to fill the void left by the collapse of the Soviet Union.

    --
    Artix
    Your Linux, your init.
  73. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

    I see a few options:

    1. Because they aren't developed enough to store such information in computer networks. (N.K.?)

    2. Because they can actually secure their information properly (e.g. no links to Internet on networks with secure data).

    3. Because any would-be whistleblowers are deterred by the knowledge that their death will be long and nasty indeed should they get caught.

  74. We haven't slowed them yet... by Raskolnikov42 · · Score: 1

    It frustrates me that the media is treating the recent arrests http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2011/07/fbi-confirms-arrests-anonymous-hacking-case/40153/ as some sort of major blow against Anonymous. The people arrested accessed the LOIC from their home IP addresses! This is not the work of master criminals. The picked up a few morons who blindly followed Anonymous's call.

  75. Re:Why no releases of secrets from potential enemi by PhilHibbs · · Score: 1

    We have extradition treaties with our allies. So if you commit a crime against the US, the UK will extradite you. We have no such treaties with our enemies.