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Massive Solar Tower Planned For Arizona
inkscapee writes "It's simple, clean, low-maintenance, and cost-effective: using hot air on a large scale to generate electricity. No, this not a plan to use Congress to generate power, though that would certainly be an endless supply — EnviroMission will use air rising up a tall tower to generate 200 megawatts of electricity. The concept is simple: a giant greenhouse at the base of the tower warms the air. The warmed air rises through the tower and turns turbines, which generate electricity. The taller the tower, the faster the air moves, which increases power output. This structure will be a monster at over 2600 feet tall. It works in all weather, and if there is a feasible water source, food could be grown in the greenhouse."
The mammoth 800-plus meter (2625 ft) tall tower will instantly become one of the world's tallest buildings.
Compensating for something there, Arizona?
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Seems like a reasonable idea. The wikipedia article has more info than the TFA. There have been a couple of much smaller systems build world wide but little info on how well they work or stand up. I'm a little concerned about the 'limited maintenance' claim. It's a big structure in a hostile environment and has lots of moving parts. One wonders just how optimistic their financial spreadsheets are and how far they will diverge from reality.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
You grow plants at the periphery of the collector where it's warm, not hot and less windy. At least, that is the plan. Nearer to the turbines will serve as a training ground for Arrakis.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
This is a ridiculous idea. The only structure that is taller than 2600 ft is the Burj Khalifa (Burj Dubai), which is 2717 ft.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_structures_in_the_world
The idea that we would build the 2nd tallest structure in the world for 200 MW is ridiculous. This doesn't even come CLOSE to being a top producer of energy per power plant. The top 10 power plants in the world all produce more than 6000 MW. Even the largest biofuel, geothermal and tidal plants currently exceed 200MW.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_power_stations_in_the_world
-molo
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
lots of moving parts
Maybe in absolute terms, but virtually any other means of electrical power generation has more. The only moving parts here are the turbines. Not only do we have plenty of experience with running turbines (since every other power source uses them), but they should all be independent from one another, so a failure of one doesn't lead to damage or require a shutdown, it just means you're putting out a little less power.
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The idea is interesting, but it seems to me that a substantial portion of the solar energy is going towards gravitational potential energy - that is, lifting tons of air mass hundreds of feet in the air.
At some point, that air mass cools off, the air will want to drop back down towards the earth because of gravity. Seems like, in addition to generating 200MW on the 'exhaust' stack, they could build a second "cool air return" stack that generated power from the force of gravity pulling the cooled air back down to ground level?
-1 parent. The exhaust air at the top of the tower is going to keep rising because it will still be hotter than the ambient air. The cold air that falls to offset the rising mass is called the atmosphere. It's big, it's going to be moving slower than the air you just used to spin a turbine, and it's not cost effective to try to make electricity from it until it enters the greenhouse, gets heated, and funnels into the turbines that are already in the design (the one place where air is moving fast in the whole design.
They aren't "lifting tons of air mass" against gravity. Gravity pushing down on the surrounding air is what is pushing the air up in the first place. This tower is a way to focus that downward push of cool air onto a narrow tube of hot air that then floats up and runs the turbines. This isn't any different than boiling small amounts of water at the bottom of a lake. The bubbles will rise quickly and that energy could be harnessed, but it would be pretty useless to try and harness the energy of the resulting water vapour eventually drifting back to the bottom of the lake.
Sigh... I have a pen, anyone have an envelope?
The tower is rated for 200 MW, with an estimated utilization of 60%. So the average power output is about 120 MW.
Wholesale electricity prices in the United States are 40-100 $ / MWhr. This should be able to provide most of its power during peak usage, which is great from a business model. Plus they can command a bit of a premium from the California ISO because it is renewable, and California has a 33% renewable mandate. Let's assume 60 $/MWhr.
In each year there are 24 * 365 = 8760 hours. So the company's annual revenue should be in the ballpark of $65 M/yr.
The estimated cost to build the thing is $750M, and their estimated payback period is 11 years. That doesn't quite jive with the numbers I've come up with, and doesn't take into account net-present-value calculations, financing costs, operating expenses, etc. But, even so, you should certainly be able to pay for the thing over its many-decades-long lifetime.
Curious what the effect of launching a stream of hot air a half mile up will have on local weather patterns. Would suck big time if this upwelling of hot air caused a localized artificial high pressure zone that shifted the natural weather patterns. Just say'n
It's kind of like putting a hose in a tub, running it out the window and sucking on the hose a bit to get the water started.
The hot air raising up the tube creates a vacuum that pulls in more cold air around the base which is heated by the sun through the glass. The higher it goes, the more air it needs to pull in the bottom. If you cut the tube off, the vacuum is reduced because the hot air is not being used fully and being released too soon.
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
I get it... turbine generators have really good efficiency and we've refined their use for over a century. But it seems to me that every worth-while method of power production uses them...
Solar Cells, and Lightning Rods seem to be the only methods I can think of that produce electricity without the use a turbine/generator combo but neither are viable for wide spread use. It seems to me that we'd do well to invest in methods of converting heat directly into electricity (giant Peltiers?) without the use of a turbine/generator. I would think doing so would theoretically make a number of our existing methods that much more efficient and perhaps open the door for other methods of power production.
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