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OS X Lion Ships With Faulty NVidia Drivers

Posted by timothy on from the rough-edges-on-the-rollout dept.

TeaCurran writes with this mildly ranty objection to the most recent Mac OS X update; several friends who have made the leap on their MacBook Pros have various other complaints, too, including system slowdowns that resemble crashes (except that their pointers still work) and recurring black screens for some configurations (with or without the kernel panics TeaCurran mentions) — what's been your experience? "Apple OS X Lion shipped with new NVidia video drivers that are causing anyone with a mid 2010 Macbook Pro to get a kernel panic every 5-10 minutes. Apple knew about the issue before shipping lion, hasn't responded to the issue, and is censoring posts in their support forum that mention words like 'boycott' and 'petition.' NVidia has responded that the drivers are the responsibility of Apple so they won't deal with the issue. How a major hardware manufacturer can ship such a faulty product without getting much press about it is completely beyond me."

39 of 284 comments (clear)

  1. Again by Billly+Gates · · Score: 5, Informative

    This isn't the first time this has happened.

    --
    http://saveie6.com/
    1. Re:Again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You're lucky if it's just an annoyance and doesn't destroy your hardware. I had two ATI video cards burn out on me on my first mac desktop before switching over to their lower-end nivida card.

      Was it the X1900XT by any chance? I went through two in my 2006 Mac Pro (the second being a warranty replacement). Those cards just died, period. The second one croaked even though I used SMCFanControl to force the PCI/HDD bay fan to run faster the entire time I had it installed. It just took a little longer to die...

      It wasn't Apple's fault, it was a bad generation of chips from ATI. A friend of mine had his PC X1900XT card die in a very similar fashion, and I found at least anecdotal Internet support for the idea that X1900XTs kill themselves routinely. (Yeah, I know, anecdotal... but still.)

      I then went through two different Apple branded 8800GTs. Same story, bought the upgrade kit, it died in less than a year, got a warranty replacement, it died in a bit over a year. The problems with that generation of chips from NVidia are a bit more well-documented than the X1900XT, though. Apple's video card upgrade choices for the first two generations or so of Mac Pro were... unfortunate. My video card woes were not solved until last year when I got a Radeon 5770, which appears to be rock solid even though technically it's not supposed to be able to work in a first gen Mac Pro.

      (I also have the fanless low end NVidia card you mention, which came in handy while waiting for warranty replacements etc.)

      I found that a lot of people were having similar problems on the Internet, and rumors that a faulty firmware on the card kept its fan from spinning up when the card got too hot. Other rumors were that the fan design itself was bad and it became easily clogged with dust. That system is still going strong with its low-end nvidia card as a file server in the basement.

      I think the rumors were just rumors. Granted, Apple's aggressiveness with keeping fan speeds low makes them run a bit hot, but not so hot that they should die so predictably, even when you take measures to improve their cooling. And my friend's PC X1900XT was installed in a well ventilated custom built system.

    2. Re:Again by hairyfeet · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And is yet more proof that without Jobs at the reins the company is going to shit. They burnt the pros with FCPx, aka iMovie Pro, by yanking all previous versions off the shelves and refusing to sell it to those that need to expand their business and need features that iMovie pro doesn't have, they did it again with the "don't say the M word (malware) and whatever you do do NOT admit it or help the customers!" bullshit, now they are sending out OSes with total shit drivers.

      This should be proof to most that without Jobs sitting in his chair ready to lay the smackdown on the fuckups that the company is in serious trouble. Like him or hate him you have to give the man credit for always running a tight ship and cutting through the bullshit, and I have a feeling without the big man in charge shit is only gonna get worse.

      He really should have set up a solid line of succession after the first health scare and been putting someone in the spotlight that shared his drive and vision for the company. Maybe he couldn't find the right person, maybe after getting burned by the Pepsi guy who couldn't stand the thought of risking being back stabbed again, who knows. but it looks like without Jobs driving the company things are going downhill quickly. Get better Steve, your company needs you. And this is from someone who has never owned any Apple products other than a G3 to play with the PPC arch. I just hate to see a company the man has worked so hard to build go downhill like that.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    3. Re:Again by GizmoToy · · Score: 4, Informative

      Nope.

      My late 2009 27" iMac has faulty video drivers to this day, and Apple's acknowledged as much. A secondary display will display digital static every third or fourth time you wake it up. I gave detailed bug reports, and worked endlessly over a period of a year and a half with Apple engineers to track down the problem and get it fixed. I spent countless hours helping them track down the problem, going back and forth on the issue at least 10 times.

      I got a notification two weeks ago that the problem was fixed, and updated drivers were released in the latest version of Snow Leopard (and Lion as well, I assume), but only if your hardware was manufactured after December 2010. They had the nerve to ask me to try it on new hardware to see if the problem is resolved.

      So I spent all that time helping them, and they screwed me. This issue is a bigger problem than mine is, but I wouldn't expect anything but the very minimum possible to appease customers on anything but the absolute latest equipment.

    4. Re:Again by CharlyFoxtrot · · Score: 2

      These things happen which is why everybody will advise you to wait until the 10.7.1 release which is coming soon. Don't be an early adopter if you you can't stand the pain. For god's sake some of these people don't have sense enough to even have a backup.

      --
      If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
    5. Re:Again by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You don't understand Apple - it's not about keeping last year's gear working, it's about getting you to upgrade hardware this year. Product churn is the name of the game, and anything that allows you to keep your older hardware working properly is simply not in Apple's best interests...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    6. Re:Again by macs4all · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And is yet more proof that without Jobs at the reins the company is going to shit. They burnt the pros with FCPx, aka iMovie Pro, by yanking all previous versions off the shelves and refusing to sell it to those that need to expand their business and need features that iMovie pro doesn't have,

      You have absolutely no clue at all, do you?

      Just how long do you think the development cycle was for FCPX? Given that Jobs himself mentioned it in at least one Keynote, I would venture to say that he had some real input on its feature-set.

      Second, You do realize, of course, that Apple responded to their pro users, and allowed companies with "site licenses" (can't remember the exact term Apple uses) to continue to purchases licenses for the previous version of FCP, thus completely eliminating the "What if we hire more people?" objection to FCPX.

      they did it again with the "don't say the M word (malware) and whatever you do do NOT admit it or help the customers!" bullshit

      Interesting that there hasn't been another word in the press or the street about the MacDefender or any other "malware". I agree that the "don't admit it" stuff was some middle-manager's dumbass mistake; but what really matters is that Apple got on it, and got on it promptly, and evidently, quite effectively, too...

      ey are sending out OSes with total shit drivers

      Gimme a break! HOW many drivers do you think OS X ships with? Can you name a SINGLE OS that hasn't shipped with a bad driver or two? I can't. Not one.

      This should be proof to most that without Jobs sitting in his chair ready to lay the smackdown on the fuckups that the company is in serious trouble. Like him or hate him you have to give the man credit for always running a tight ship and cutting through the bullshit, and I have a feeling without the big man in charge shit is only gonna get worse.

      I notice this is your latest tactic, hairyfeet. You damn Apple with faint praise of Jobs, and spread this FUD regarding "Apple slipping in the absence of Jobs." Fact is, every single thing that has recently shipped, or will ship in the next year or so, was done under the auspices of Steve Jobs. R&D cycles for this stuff are measured in calendar YEARS, not weeks or months. And Apple is a large enough corporation (and has been for quite some time) that Stevie doesn't have to stamp his approval on every little initiative, initial every memo, or plan every project on a day to day, or even month to month, basis.

      He really should have set up a solid line of succession after the first health scare and been putting someone in the spotlight that shared his drive and vision for the company.

      I guess you don't keep up on Apple news (and yet still feel compelled to comment on it).

      Ever heard of Tim Cook? He is as close to Steve Jobs ver. 2.0 as it gets. And he has run the company TWICE now (and I think is actually doing so right now). So, SJ and Apple HAVE been grooming an heir-apparent for over two years now. As you (rightly) note, they are big shoes to fill; but Tim seems to be up to the challenge, and the public and the press seem content with Tim's abilities in that regard.

      But, I sincerely thank you on behalf of Steve Jobs for wishing him better health and a long life. He can use all the positive energy the Multiverse can send his way, and that is in very short supply here on Slashdot...

    7. Re:Again by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      You can't argue that things were better with Jobs running the show, because they weren't.

      The iPhone 4 death-grip, iPad 1 curved back, early Core 2 Macbooks having far too much thermal paste on them and overheating, 16 bit screens in various laptops, the iPod Color which was replaced after being on sale for only 3 months, the various App Store and iTunes music store bullshit, the bloated crapware that is iTunes for Windows, the Mac Cube...

      Not that I am necessarily blaming Jobs for all of that, my point is that Apple were just as prone to cock-ups and screwing customers all the time he was sat in that chair.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    8. Re:Again by MrAngryForNoReason · · Score: 2

      Gimme a break! HOW many drivers do you think OS X ships with? Can you name a SINGLE OS that hasn't shipped with a bad driver or two? I can't. Not one.

      I am sure a lot of OSs ship with a few less than perfect drivers but you do have to admit this isn't a driver for a random printer or something. The vast majority of Macs shipped in the last 10 years use either Nvidia or ATI graphics cards, both companies have combined driver packages which cover their entire range of cards so it isn't like there are thousands of distributions of drivers that have to be kept current and tested.

      Also Apple only ship a very small sub-set of hardware. In this instance we are talking about Macbook Pros, laptops which only have a tiny choice of graphics hardware which is extremely unlikely to be changed after purchase. In fact a quick look at the different Macbook Pro iterations shows that to cover all of the graphics combinations since the Macbook Pro was released you would still only be looking at 7 different bits of graphics hardware*. It is hardly unreasonable to expect Apple to test a major OS update on the main hardware configurations that they ship.

      * Nvidia GeForce 9400M
      Nvidia GeForce 9400M with Nvidia GeForce 9600M GT
      Nvidia GeForce 320M
      Intel HD Graphics with GeForce GT 330M
      Intel HD Graphics 3000
      Intel HD Graphics 3000 with AMD Radeon HD 6490M
      AMD Radeon HD 6750M

  2. Does it now? by bonch · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Apple OS X Lion shipped with new NVidia video drivers that are causing anyone with a mid 2010 Macbook Pro to get a kernel panic every 5-10 minutes.

    Oh, yeah? I'm posting this on a mid-2010 17-inch MacBook Pro with an Nvidia card. I've been running Lion developer previews for months, and the only time I've ever have graphics problems is when I'm playing a game and the system gets too hot because my room isn't well-ventilated. In fact, Lion could be the most stable first release of any OS X operating system. I regularly play World of Warcraft, Starcraft II, Borderlands, Left 4 Dead 2, and Team Fortress 2 without issue.

    Nvidia isn't saying that nothing will get fixed. Apple works with Nvidia on their drivers. What Nvidia is saying is simply that they can't provide technical support. Removing posts about goofy boycotts and petitions is just clearing out nonsense posts in what is supposed to be a support forum. Apple's support forums are some of the silliest, whiniest forums on the web, and you'll rarely find useful information from the users there.

    I also question the claim that "Apple knew about the issue before shipping Lion," as if there's some big conspiracy that Apple knew it was going to cause your machine to black-screen but didn't care. Give me a break.

    How a major hardware manufacturer can ship such a faulty product without getting much press about it is completely beyond me.

    Because the issue only affects a tiny segment of customers. If, as you claim, every single person with a mid-2010 MBP was getting kernel panics every 5-10 minutes, that would be major news. Like most customers with technical problems, you're acting like it's a bigger deal than it is and that it's affecting more people than it is. Installing a new operating system is a major procedure that can uncover previously invisible problems lurking on a person's computer. That's why, every time there's a console firmware update, you'll see a bunch of posts from people claiming the updates ruined their machines.

    1. Re:Does it now? by myurr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Wow, one laptop makes a trend true now does it. Well I have upgraded to Lion as well and in the last week or so since I jumped my previously fine 2009 17" Macbook Pro has crashed out completely twice. One second it's running, the next it's totally powered off. This has happened once on battery power, once whilst plugged in.

      So there are some problems out there, just because it hasn't affected you doesn't mean it ain't so!

    2. Re:Does it now? by walternate · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Apple OS X Lion shipped with new NVidia video drivers that are causing anyone with a mid 2010 Macbook Pro to get a kernel panic every 5-10 minutes.

      Oh, yeah? I'm posting this on a mid-2010 17-inch MacBook Pro with an Nvidia card. I've been running Lion developer previews for months, and the only time I've ever have graphics problems is when I'm playing a game and the system gets too hot because my room isn't well-ventilated. In fact, Lion could be the most stable first release of any OS X operating system. I regularly play World of Warcraft, Starcraft II, Borderlands, Left 4 Dead 2, and Team Fortress 2 without issue.

      Nvidia isn't saying that nothing will get fixed. Apple works with Nvidia on their drivers. What Nvidia is saying is simply that they can't provide technical support. Removing posts about goofy boycotts and petitions is just clearing out nonsense posts in what is supposed to be a support forum. Apple's support forums are some of the silliest, whiniest forums on the web, and you'll rarely find useful information from the users there.

      I also question the claim that "Apple knew about the issue before shipping Lion," as if there's some big conspiracy that Apple knew it was going to cause your machine to black-screen but didn't care. Give me a break.

      How a major hardware manufacturer can ship such a faulty product without getting much press about it is completely beyond me.

      Because the issue only affects a tiny segment of customers. If, as you claim, every single person with a mid-2010 MBP was getting kernel panics every 5-10 minutes, that would be major news. Like most customers with technical problems, you're acting like it's a bigger deal than it is and that it's affecting more people than it is. Installing a new operating system is a major procedure that can uncover previously invisible problems lurking on a person's computer. That's why, every time there's a console firmware update, you'll see a bunch of posts from people claiming the updates ruined their machines.

      Everything you said could have been repeated for most similar reports at about Windows stability problems. People who have problems will of course complain, and get unfair attention vs all the users that don't have problems. If anything, welcome Apple to the reality of having more than a few users and system variations to care for.

    3. Re:Does it now? by bonch · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Wow, one laptop makes a trend true now does it.

      Exactly the same thing could be said to the submitter claiming every single person with a mid-2010 MBP is having kernel panics every five minutes. Do you realize how many customers that is? It would have been huge news the day Lion was released. My point is that the issue obviously only affects a small segment of customers, like most hardware and software issues.

      The submitter also claimed Apple "hasn't responded to the issue," but the linked article says they have said that they are looking into it and are taking crash reports.

      I see this kind of exaggeration all the time when dealing with technical support issues. Everyone thinks their issue is also affecting everyone else and that there's a conspiracy on the part of the evil company not to help them.

    4. Re:Does it now? by sco08y · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Same experience. I like Lion, it's just a ton of nice little tweaks and everything else just works. Spaces... it actually works *and* I can set different desktops. Hidden scrollbars... awesome, my monitor is bigger.

      And regarding the censorship, you're absolutely right.

      From TFS:

      Apple knew about the issue before shipping lion, hasn't responded to the issue, and is censoring posts in their support forum that mention words like 'boycott' and 'petition.'

      Yeah, because here on /., posts that are hopelessly offtopic are never modded down to death. Are you fucking kidding me, you're really whining that idiotic comments were deleted? Let's do a test, I'll go to CBS news (a typical news site with unmoderated comments) and click the first story I see. Yup, sure enough, the comments are completely fucking retarded.

    5. Re:Does it now? by d3vi1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My Mid 2010 15" MBP (Core i7, 8GB, SSD) has no problems on Lion. My girlfriend's Late 2009 15" MBP (Core 2 Duo, 8GB, SSD) did occasionally lock after upgrading to Lion. What I've done to solve that was to disable HDD sleeping since it's pointless on SSDs anyway. I noticed that it happened only when the computer was idle for some time (at least enough for the screen to go blank) and when it did resume, I got a black screen with the rainbow spinning wheel.
      The results are mixed, as can be expected with a brand new OS, but it's not a tragedy. You can always restore to the pre-upgrade backups that you should always make as a responsible admin.
      All new OS versions have bugs, that's why we get the first 1-2 fixes quite soon after the release. Apple is already working on 10.7.2, as 10.7.1 is in QA by now.

      --
      UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever ones.
    6. Re:Does it now? by Ossifer · · Score: 2

      Mid-2010 15" MBP here. I use it to develop and test 3D visual analytics software. Neither the kernel nor I have yet to panic...

    7. Re:Does it now? by erroneus · · Score: 2

      Apple's support forums are some of the silliest, whiniest forums on the web, and you'll rarely find useful information from the users there.

      My God, you got that right. Over the last weekend I was loading up a MacMini with Snow Leopard and getting MySQL installed to work with PHP and Apache. It comes with Apache2. It comes with PHP but just needs a couple of text files edited. MySQL was a little more difficult-- download the package and install. (mcrypt also but that was a genuine effort with source code compiling and all) But, unfortunately, that's not where I started. I started with Google and ended up on any number of Mac related forums advising a LOT of really stupid things. And this "MAMP" tihng? How ridiculous is that?! I just don't see any use for it at all. If someone wants to make a useful "easy" package, then they need to write some scripts to pull down MySQL, install it and tweak some text files.

      Worse, I had upgraded the HDD on the MacMini to 500GB and the little cable on the sound board came lose when I was putting it back together. Eventually the sound dropped out and I searched those same forums, They all claimed it was a software problem and that all I needed to do was acquire an older kext from and older kernel to fix it. I did that and it obviously didn't work and I kept reading how this happend after "upgrading." I read a few more and they were talking about upgrading hard drives... and then I went... oh... I think I know what happened now... These idiots left something unplugged or disconnected... well... me too I guess but it was working at first so I guess it was just loose. Anyway, from their inability to blame themselves I realized it was their fault, then I went into my mini and sure enough, the cable was loose. Reattached and it was back like that.

      I don't care how smart YOU are. You could be a frikken genius but it doesn't change anything. Generally speaking, Apple attracts some pretty dumb people to their products.

    8. Re:Does it now? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Funny

      Let's do a test, I'll go to CBS news (a typical news site with unmoderated comments) and click the first story I see. Yup, sure enough, the comments are completely fucking retarded. [cbsnews.com]

      Those weren't the comments, they were the stories.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    9. Re:Does it now? by geekoid · · Score: 2

      While I dont' think Apple is doing anything wrong, this is incorrect:

      "Yeah, because here on /., posts that are hopelessly offtopic are never modded down to death. "

      I can adjust my view and see any post. This is completely different then removing a post.

      "it's just a ton of nice little tweaks and everything else just works. Spaces... it actually"
      so it didn't work before? You're sentence is weird.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    10. Re:Does it now? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 2

      Oh, yeah? I'm posting this on a mid-2010 17-inch MacBook Pro with an Nvidia card. I've been running Lion developer previews for months, and the only time I've ever have graphics problems is when I'm playing a game and the system gets too hot because my room isn't well-ventilated.

      How hot is your room? I'm in Shanghai, and my HP G71 - with a big 17" screen - running 3D FEA simulations (both CPU cores pegged at 100%, 7.6 GB of RAM committed, full rendering enabled) never flakes out thermally. Even while the room temperature is a relatively warm 36 deg C.

      Having to worry about your room being too hot is a sure sign there's a thermal management problem with your laptop. They're supposed to be used in places beyond just a comfy air-conditioned office, after all...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
  3. In this thread...... by polaris20 · · Score: 3, Funny

    anecdotal evidence of single experiences are given as credible information. One laptop != significant indication of reliability, or lack there of. We've got a couple nVidia-equipped machines that are working fine too, but that doesn't mean there isn't a problem, despite my vast Lion user base of four users currently testing the OS.

  4. Re:Faulty specs? by kevinmenzel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You damn well can, because they insist on writing the drivers themselves. Hell, even the bootcamp video drivers aren't the same as the official nVidia drivers, and worse - every time you update Bootcamp, it replaces whatever video driver you HAVE installed to get better performance, with the latest version that THEY want to provide you. If they just let the hardware manufacturers code the drivers, and had some sort of driver certification process, this wouldn't be such a problem, would it.

  5. Re:Yep by Ryanrule · · Score: 2

    Windows 7 works great!

  6. Re:Drivers are responsibility of NVidia by Billly+Gates · · Score: 3, Informative

    One of the reasons for choosing a Mac over a PC is that it is the responsibility of Apple and you do not need to worry about drivers and incompatibilities. Its in all in an integrated platform where you plug it in and work.

    This issue of responsibility of hardware driver issues is why Windows sucks and also why Windows XP is still popular. People are afraid to upgrade their pc's with the OS that it came with. You are rolling dice when upgrading drivers or operating systems.

    --
    http://saveie6.com/
  7. Falsehood by ArAgost · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Apple OS X Lion shipped with new NVidia video drivers that are causing anyone with a mid 2010 Macbook Pro to get a kernel panic every 5-10 minutes.

    Uh, what? I've yet to see a MBP with Lion getting a KP. Do editors really fall for this obvious linkbaiting?

  8. Re:Drivers are responsibility of NVidia by bonch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What Nvidia is saying is that they can't provide technical support.

  9. Re:It's Apple, it just works, think different by bonch · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Apple is intuitive, stylish, and their software just works. They think differently.

    If you're claiming that Apple fans think the hardware and software is flawless, you've obviously never visited MacRumors, AppleInsider, and other Apple forums. Apple customers are the whiniest critics in existence and will complain about mismatched colors at the pixel level (granted, the guy I'm talking about was an interface designer, but still).

    But yes, all the high-level qualities about Apple are true, which is why they have such a devoted fanbase and billions of dollars in the bank.

  10. The really disturbing part of the story. by grimmjeeper · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've been using computers since the 70's. I've seen every major manufacturer have problems over the years. Despite protests to the contrary, Apple is not immune. This is not the first time they've had software issues. It won't be the last. It doesn't make them any different than any other computer supplier. That's just the way things go.

    But software issues aren't the real problem. The real problem is right here:

    Apple knew about the issue before shipping lion, hasn't responded to the issue, and is censoring posts in their support forum that mention words like 'boycott' and 'petition.'

    Censoring technical discussions? Removing posts?

    Seriously?

    This is the kind of crap that really opens up Apple for criticism. Sure, it's a problem. But you deal with it by coming out and saying "we know we have a problem, we're going to fix it". Some people will rant and rave. Some people will take the initial problem as an excuse to boycott Apple products in the future. Most likely though, people who cry "boycott" will calm down in a few minutes and accept the software upgrade push to fix the problem. After all, consumers are quick to be incensed but they're easily mollified by good customer support. That is, until Apple goes and deletes their posts. That's exactly what you want to not do. Everyone is going to see you do it. You're going to generate tons of bad publicity by yourself and you're going to drive away customers who would have otherwise accepted the fix when it's available.

    This is an incredibly bad move on the part of Apple. I can't understand why in the world they would do it. That is, unless the stereotypes are true about no one being allowed to criticize Apple. And if that's the case, it's no wonder they're never able to break out of their niche.

    1. Re:The really disturbing part of the story. by Americano · · Score: 3, Insightful

      After all, consumers are quick to be incensed but they're easily mollified by good customer support.

      And with some of the highest customer satisfaction ratings in the industry, isn't it possible that perhaps Apple knows something about good customer support that you don't?

      I don't know, maybe they've discovered that it's a bad idea to let your support forums turn into a whining trollfest full of threats of boycotts and lawsuits, related to an issue that has just been found, and might be a software, hardware, manufacturer or "user error" type of issue? I can't imagine how increasing the amount of unhelpful whining on customer support forums is a "good" thing for the general user base - it contributes nothing useful to help people troubleshoot, and it's just going to bog down the support forums.

    2. Re:The really disturbing part of the story. by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 3, Informative

      The real problem is right here:

      Apple knew about the issue before shipping lion, hasn't responded to the issue, and is censoring posts in their support forum that mention words like 'boycott' and 'petition.'

      Censoring technical discussions? Removing posts?

      Seriously?

      This is the kind of crap that really opens up Apple for criticism. Sure, it's a problem. But you deal with it by coming out and saying "we know we have a problem, we're going to fix it".

      They are indeed censoring technical discussions, removing content that has nothing to do with the technical discussion. There are other places to post rants and complaints that are non-technical. Personally, I'd think this was a good thing, except for the fact that Apple's support forums have a dearth of technical discussion at the best of times. The result? MacFixit for the technical discussion, various other places for the rants, and Apple doesn't get the lively discussion and technical feedback on their own forums that they really need to improve things. Not sure how they can fix this though.

      As for "you deal with it by coming out and saying 'we know we have a problem, we're going to fix it,'" that's exactly what the article says they've done. They're asking for any data customers can provide -- they're just not getting any; only rants and petitions.

    3. Re:The really disturbing part of the story. by grimmjeeper · · Score: 3, Funny

      Here's a thought. You could keep your customer service forum from becoming a whining troll fest by, oh I don't know, responding to the problems quickly. It's a radical concept, I know. But it's a thought. . .

    4. Re:The really disturbing part of the story. by jo_ham · · Score: 3, Insightful

      To be fair you are quoting an article written about this issue from someone with some bias.

      "Apple knew about the issue" [citation needed]

      "hasn't responded to the issue" [demonstrably false - they are asking for feedback and crash logs].

      The fact that people are screaming "boycott" in a technical forum is.... human nature. I saw it *all the time* in Blizzard's forums - especially back in the day when they had weekly server restarts and fortnightly maintenance that would take the servers down for a few hours, and even with update posts on restart times if they didn't come back up the *second* the estimate time was reached (along with the constant posts during the downtime) there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

      I have seen it in the PSN forums (I used to moderate them as a job in college many years ago), on the BBC iPlayer forums.. pretty much anywhere there is a place for people to vent, they will do so, and they'll all talk about how "unacceptable" it all is and how "I am boycotting!". Hell, we see it on slashdot every time video games get mentioned - a flurry of posts about boycotts due to DRM/removal of LAN play/TF2 hats etc.

      Now, I'm sure there are problems but I find it hard to believe there wasn't extensive testing on all manner of hardware to try to iron out bugs. It's also why there was a dev release to help catch things like this that might not show on generic systems. I think people are expecting Apple to go "oh, silly us! we forgot to close a bracket in the driver code! All fixed!" and the fact that it hasn't been instantly cured is taken as a sign that they don't care. It's obviously quite a specific bug, since it doesn't affect all models of the same generation, but does seem to be limited to a specific model type .

  11. Re:It's Apple, it just works, think different by mcmonkey · · Score: 2

    Apple is intuitive, stylish, and their software just works. They think differently.

    Are saying iTunes is either not software or not from Apple? Because it certainly is not intuitive, stylish, not just works

  12. Censoring by jaysones · · Score: 2

    The link to "Apple censoring posts" leads to a 30 page discussion on Apple's site. They're terrible at censorship, apparently!

  13. You're holding it wrong... by PinchDuck · · Score: 4, Funny

    Apple will release a video of Steve Jobs showing you how to hold the computer properly.

  14. Re:I haven't noticed a problem either by Americano · · Score: 2

    Take it for what it is: The systems generally work quite well, so when something goes wrong, people freak out and behave like it's the end of the world.

    This is exacerbated by sites like Slashdot who love nothing more than to pump pageviews and revenue by getting a bunch of apple-hating and apple-loving trolls trolling each other, to the tune of hundreds of comments per article.

  15. Can you say "ATI X1600"? by droptop · · Score: 2

    -Rant Warning- Try talking to someone who has owned a late 2006 Apple product with the ATI X1600 video card how happy they are with Apple service. My iMac 5.1 has been dying a slow death for about two years now, and I've a few friends with MacBook Pro with the same freezing and screen artifact issues I've been getting on my 20" iMac. This was first all in one machine I've ever bought (not counting laptops and PowerBooks) and I'm kicking myself because the video card is soldered in place on this over heating piece of acrylic. As a point of reference I've got a PowerMac 8600 and a G4/400 AGP that run great still - And my old Zeos 486/66 DX2 with the Pentium OverDrive chip and 2MB VESA graphics still runs like new... Along with a few SGI O2's, a SparkStation 5, a PowerBook 170 and on-and-on.... Drives are expected to wear out, but I've never really had a computer screw up like this iMac at only two years old. -End Rant-

    --
    change it.
  16. Re:The wonderful thing about Apple product by jo_ham · · Score: 2

    Yes, why not?

    You can't ensure 100% perfect products in a mass production line (at least, not economically), so the speed, efficiency and cost of putting right a lemon is an important part of any business that sells consumer products.

    If they do it right, then they should be praised. Far too much emphasis has been placed on companies to not only repair a product but to then be expected to bend over and ass kiss the entitlement attitude customer who says "ok, so you fixed that for free so I now have what I purchased, but what are you going to do for me?"

  17. Re:It's Apple, it just works, think different by kiwimate · · Score: 2

    Apple is intuitive, stylish, and their software just works.

    iTunes. Q.E.D.