RIM Helping UK Police Track Down Rioters

jfruhlinger writes "Protests against a police shooting in the poor London neighborhood of Tottenham escalated into rioting and looting this past weekend. Initial reports have it that the activity was coordinated not by Twitter or Facebook but by the relatively old-tech method of BlackBerry messaging. Now the official Twitter account of RIM's UK division has announced that it is 'engaged with the authorities to assist in any way we can,' which presumably means that it's handing over messages sent by rioters. Is BlackBerry being a responsible part of British society, or is it overstepping its bounds?"

Comments

There's a line

[OverlordQ]

There's a difference between protesting and rioting/looting. So cheers for tracking down rioters and looters.

Re:There's a line

[Seumas]

I'd say there's also a line between protesting/rioting/looting and shooting a citizen.

Re:There's a line

[jeffmeden]

I've been reading the headlines on this a couple of days....and I'm still not sure what all the rioting is about?

The police shoot someone over there, and they have a riot? What's the deal with that?

We don't lose our minds everytime someone get's shot over here unless it is something pretty egregious....I mean, we just finished the trial (not that much national exposure I don't think) about all the people shot on the Danziger bridge post Katrina by the cops. They had an orderly trial, etc. We didn't go all apeshit over it and riot in the streets over the shooting. The cops were caught, tried and found guilty, and convicted...end of story.

Then again, I don't understand it why other towns riot in the streets and burn cars when "their" football/basketball/baseball teams wins the championship.

Good thinking, point out a verdict that went in favor of "the people". When the Rodney King verdict came down (in the opposite direction) there were many significant riots... Forget about those? You are right, things are so different over there.

Re:There's a line

[0123456]

yes especially when he shoots first... the person who's death sparked this off was stooped in a Taxi and fired at the policemen with a gun before they fired back, this sort of thing is too common to get in the news in America but in England it is rare.

Uh, the latest news reports I've seen were saying that the bullet that hit the policeman was... fired by the police.

So it looks like the police may have shot someone dead for no particularly good reason again, though at least this time it seems that they managed to shoot an actual bad guy.

Re:There's a line

[Aquitaine]

One man's freedom protester is another man's unlawful rioter.

How deep. Grow up.

How about this: in anything pretending to resemble a civilized society, smashing and destroying private property as a means to make your point counts as unlawful rioting.

It's amazing to me how much scrutiny anyone in authority gets (though deservedly so, in my book) but then how much latitude anyone who is ostensibly anti-authority gets. You can break shit, hack things, disseminate somebody else's private documents, so long as you're sticking it to the man.

Re:There's a line

[0123456]

If a police officer was shot, that means somebody had a gun who shouldn't have. Given that Mark Duggan was the one who was shot, it would seem logical that he was the one doing the shooting in the first place. So why, precisely, do you have such a problem with any of the above?

Because last night the British media were reporting that the bullet that hit the policeman was probably fired by the police?

I doubt you'll find many people in the UK who believe the police story on any shooting after the Brazilian Electrician fiasco of a few years ago where pretty much every aspect of the initial police story turned out to be wrong.

Re:There's a line

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree... It's just too bad that RIM didn't as feel as deeply for those who were impacted by all the wrong doing that led to the financial crash of 2007-8, the Madoff scandal, Enron, WorldComm, the prosecution of the war in Iraq by Bush II, the Abrahmoff scandal or any of numerous other egregious illegal acts for which they undoubtedly have access to evidence because they provide service to such a wide diversity of clientelle.

And that about the phone hacking scandal with Rupert Murdoch, or is that a little close to home?

Re:There's a line

[madprof]

Yep. You need to say "Oops I made an error in replying as I did. In fact that was a very good riposte to a vague, meandering post which made some trite points about data protection in the context of the UK becoming a virtual police state."
There are an awful lot of terrified people living in London right now, and RIM are doing the right thing. The rioters are infringing on other people's rights and libertarians really ought to be siding with the law on this one. Or maybe they would like ot be out on the streets asking the rioters what their problem with society is? They'll probably end up with a bottle in the face.

Re:There's a line

[DevonBorn]

If an officer of the law breaks the law then they should be punished by the law. The whole point of the IPCC (Independant Police Complaints Commision) is to work out what the facts are and most of the semi/uninformed speculation is not helping. Deserved/accident/trigger happy cop it doesn't matter. Let the IPCC find out what happened otherwise we're just going on hearsay and rumour.
Torching cars and stealing TVs is not the solution. The shooting is just being used as an excuse by the rioters and the unhelpful people encouraging them. The rioters don't give a damn about the guy who was shot they just want to riot and loot. This sort of action will bring out a few more people to riot but the rest of the country will be calling for their heads.
The people worst affected by all this are blameless people who made the mistake of owning shops on a high street or renting apartments above shops or similar things. I mean who didn't see that coming? You live on a high street somewhere and then your house gets torched. It's obvious isn't it? People might think twice in the future before making such an obvious mistake again. That's not going to help anybody.
People like Ken Livingstone also won't be helping. Taking of advantage of the situation for a bit of inflammatory politics is the action of an inconsiderate jerk (First class Hons. University of Git). Hopefully the people who weren't out there upgrading their home cinemas or using other people's cars to keep warm will recognise this and sort him out next year.
Shame about the opportunistic cretins in Birmingham. Hope that gets stamped out.

The only people who are going to benefit from all this are the glaziers.

Goodbye RIM - it was nice knowing you

[Samalie]

You know, even though I long ago forsook my BB, I understood why business & government wanted them.

Secure reliable communications.

Today....reliability? Sure, if you pull the battery once a day (yes, I know you can reset it without yanking the battery. Still stupid as fuck you have to reboot them constantly) Secure? RTFA.

RIM is toast...and fuck it, let them die already.

And I even get it...they're trying to put "bad people" away. BUT THAT ISN'T THEIR FUCKING PLACE IN THE WORLD. It would be one thing to answer a suponea. It is another entirely to hand over records voluntarily.

Fuck RIM. Fuck them right in the ear.

Re:Goodbye RIM - it was nice knowing you

[Samalie]

I'm not saying remotely that these assholes don't deserve to be locked up. They absolutely do.

If I had information personally that could lead to one of these jerkoff's arrest, I'd hand it over to authorities in a heartbeat.

But this isn't a private individual with first-hand knowledge of the incident going to police...this is a private company we trust to keep our information and communications secure doing exactly the opposite. This isn't some loser posting how he just broke a window & looted on twitter, or a pic of him coming out of a store with a TV posted to Facebook (which are both PUBLIC mediums). RIM prides itself on security...and running to the police with everyone's shit because of a riot defeats their sales pitch towards secure communications, especially in a market where RIM is already taking the long cock up the short ass.

Fuck RIM

Re:Definitely overstepping

[LWATCDR]

I don't know about the UK but "I have a court order" means you hand over data.

"Poor London Neighbourhood"

[Kupfernigk]

Yeah, right. Richer than most of the UK. One view of what is going on (and favoured by this former North Londoner) is that the police shot a "professional criminal" and the criminal gangs of North London are retaliating by demonstrating their ability to get out the foot soldiers. This is an area popular with the BNP/EDL, a stronghold of the original National Front, the British Nazi equivalent. The subsequent riots were mainly in strongly BNP areas like Enfield.

This looks like the Mob trying to intimidate the Government and the police because one of its capos got shot. If this is in fact the current line, RIM is obliged to co-operate. It is probably nothing whatsoever to do with poor people opposing Government cuts.

Re:easy answer

[circletimessquare]

a protest is what started in tottenham: peaceful demonstrations in front of the police station

then hooligans, from outside the neighborhood, came in to turn it into a riot

and no, i'm sorry "one mans riot is another's protest" is a stinking pile of steaming bullshit

people marching down the street is in no way the same thing as hooligan assholes throwing rocks through windows and walking off with loot

in fact, protests around the world and throughout history, protests that in a different universe would move society and government to change policy for the better, have been ruined by hooligan assholes hijacking peaceful protests and using them as an excuse to commit simple crimes. this in turn causes society, public opinion and government to turn from the protesters and their just demands in disgust, through no fault of the protesters

so no: to confuse criminal rioting with genuine protesting is disgusting

Wow.

[LWATCDR]

I just love this! It was a tweet by RIM.
This is all that it says.
"We feel for those impacted by the riots in London. We have engaged with the authorities to assist in any way we can."
This can mean anything from providing extra coverage of the area so any police using blackberries get coverage or buying people free beagles?
Wow what a jump to conclusions this has inspired.

Re:Definitely overstepping

[Anonymous Coward]

I would suggest you actually read that contract before you go making claims that RIM is changing it. From the BBSLA:

(i) You and Your Authorised Users will cooperate with RIM and provide information requested by RIM to assist RIM in investigating or determining whether there has been a breach of this Agreement and provide RIM or a RIM appointed independent auditor with access to the premises and computers where the RIM Products, Services or Software are or have been used and any associated records. You hereby authorise RIM to cooperate with: (i) law enforcement authorities in the investigation of suspected criminal violations; (ii) third parties in investigating acts in violation of this Agreement; and (iii) system administrators at Internet service providers, networks or computing facilities in order to enforce this Agreement. Such cooperation may include RIM disclosing Your or Your Authorised Users' username, IP address, or other personal information.

Lock the bastards up!

[xirtam_work]

I've got two friends who are now homeless and have lost everything apart from the clothes on their backs and their mobile phones after scum broke into a jewellers in Tottenham on Saturday night and then proceeded to torch the place. They lived above the shops and barely got out with their lives. For twenty minutes the Police were nowhere in site. My friends were posting on Facebook as the riots got closer and were frightened that they'd have to arm themselves to protect against a home invasion and then their worse fear happened - fires were started.

These kids aren't making a statement, they aren't fighting the system, they aren't protesting against jack shit. They just want to run riot, smash shit up and set fire to stuff whilst getting away with stealing as much as possible.

I'm quite happy the RIM are helping. Hopefully Skype, MSN, etc. will be on the case too. I'd send in the army with tear gas and rubber bullets (to start with) if I was in charge.

Re:Well there goes RIM security again...

[narcc]

Someone doesn't understand the difference between BIS and BES. You're still secure in Saudi Arabia if you're communications are secured over BES.

I won't bother to list the many other advantages that the BB offers over the "competition" as you only seem interested in spreading misinformation and not actual facts.

(Yes, "competition" is in quotes. No other company offers a phone that is even remotely comparable in terms of utility and security.)

Invoking Star Trek *and* Daily Mail law! ;-)

[fantomas]

A measured response, sir. However my scepticism arises as you invoke both the Daily Mail Law and the Star Trek Law:

- be suspicious if somebody quotes the Daily Mail as a reliable source of evidence
- be really worried if somebody argues their position is correct *because something similar happened in Star Trek* ;-)

I'd definitely agree we need to work out how much of what is happening is due to underlying discontent that's just bubbling up (rumours persist of some police being less than professional in dealing with youths), and how much is opportunistic crime (smashing stuff and nicking tellies and trainers because you can get free stuff while the rioting is kicking off, also just having a riot because its a chance to chuck a brick at a copper or have a laugh).

My guess is a bit of each and like the 80s we've got to sort out what's going wrong before it goes *really wrong*. There is the potential for things to go really wrong in the next few years (rising unemployment, soft social services like youth clubs being closed down, police budgets tightening, etc). It's undeniable that there are a good number of chancers out there, equally, my own personal experience is that the police can pull you over randomly and be rude and swing their weight around if they feel like it. After my (black, Barbadian) mate got pulled over in his car half a dozen times and let off every time I told him to get his driving licence updated with his proper prefix so at least he might get half an apology when they realised they should call him Dr. ...

Re:Trying to be relevant?

[Builder]

You sound a little deluded or willfully uninformed when you say
First, I believe all this kinds of riots are just group/herd behaviour ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_behaviour ) and any blackberry "coordination" was probably some innocent people inviting others to join the protest.

Here's a message that was sent:

"Everyone from all sides of London meet up at the heart of London (central) OXFORD CIRCUS!!, Bare SHOPS are gonna get smashed up so come get some (free stuff!!!) fuck the feds we will send them back with OUR riot! >:O Dead the ends and colour war for now so if you see a brother... SALUT! if you see a fed... SHOOT!"

That's not an invitation to peaceful protest. That's incitement to rob, loot and kill. There is nothing innocent about that.