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CERN Physicist Says Dark Matter May Be an Illusion

anonymousNR writes "A CERN physicist has a new theory explaining the rotational curves of galaxies. 'The key message of my paper is that dark matter may not exist and that phenomena attributed to dark matter may be explained by the gravitational polarization of the quantum vacuum,' Hajdukovic told PhysOrg.com. 'The future experiments and observations will reveal if my results are only (surprising) numerical coincidences or an embryo of a new scientific revolution.' Given the many theories around explaining various observations in recent times, there seems to be a breakthrough on its way in our understanding of the cosmos."

31 of 379 comments (clear)

  1. no dark matter... by ak_hepcat · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I hope so. Dark matter is the ugliest kludge to the standard model ever.

    It's worse than the Plus upgrade for Windows 98.

    --
    Support FSF: Stop thinking with your wallet, and think with your imagination. (cc/non-commercial)
    1. Re:no dark matter... by DesScorp · · Score: 3, Funny

      I hope so. Dark matter is the ugliest kludge to the standard model ever.

      It's worse than the Plus upgrade for Windows 98.

      I've long thought that the concept of dark matter was a manifestation of the inability of some scientists to admit "Hell, I don't know".

      --
      Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    2. Re:no dark matter... by bky1701 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Scientists are convinced otherwise when evidence becomes available, and usually base their assumptions on factual information. Religions do not.

    3. Re:no dark matter... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Scientists SHOULD BE convinced otherwise when evidence becomes available, and 8/10 times base their assumptions on factual information. Religions do both to a much lesser extent.

      Fixed.

      There are plenty of scientists out there with pet theories that they will fight for to the bitter end.

    4. Re:no dark matter... by IICV · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'd love to see how his model explains something like (e.g) the Bullet Cluster, because quite frankly I don't think it does - the article states that his theory explains the speeding up of galactic rotation (the reason why we first hypothesized dark matter), but the article goes on to state that his hypothesis doesn't actually cover a ton of other stuff like the CMB.

      Furthermore, this theory is based on the hypothesis that matter and antimatter are gravitationally repulsive, which (imo) is absolute BS. It's true, we haven't generated enough antimatter yet to know for a fact that it acts the same way as regular matter in a gravitational field generated by regular matter, but we have absolutely no reason to think that it would be gravitationally repulsive. If that turns out to be true, there will need to be a shit-ton of rejiggering of models and basically everything we think we know about physics will have to be moved around.

      Basically, he's said "If pigs can levitate, then I can account for the discrepancy in galactic rotation curves without dark matter" - except if pigs can levitate, we'll need to rethink everything anyway.

    5. Re:no dark matter... by Antisyzygy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Uhh, well. Scientists never actually claim to "know" the truth about anything completely, they just claim to know "an approximation of the truth" which is a theory or axiom that has been tested and shown to work in every case its been tested in so far. People still continue to test it and find it works. GPS satellites would not work if Relativity was not mostly correct. Don't get confused with the word "approximation of truth", it doesn't mean its not correct to a degree. There is no absolute right and absolute wrong.

      The principal of science is that you seek truth through observable, repeatable experiments. We know gravity exists on Earth because every time we throw a rock in the air it falls back to the ground. If one day, it did not fall back to the ground, or it fell to the ground 50 percent of the time and the other 50 percent of the time it flew off into space; we would probably not believe gravity existed and instead either have worked on or be working on other explanations. For example, Relativity has passed just about every test its been put through except for things on quantum scale or on super-massive scale. Does this mean it is wrong? No. It means that it is right in certain situations, but not in others. If you know anything about mathematics, which is totally based in rigorously proved logic that is basically irrefutable once its axioms and assumptions are cemented, you will realize that sometimes its possible to be correct within a certain degree or domain but incorrect beyond it.

      Its a bit different to claim many of the things religions claim. For example, claiming a flood wiped out all humans on Earth except for Noah, his sons, and all of their spouses along with two of each animal is ludicrous. The fossil record shows absolutely no evidence of this and a global flood poses other physical questions that have completely unfeasible explanations, and its been proven so if you actually read about scientific topics such as genetics, biology, anthropology, paleontology, and physics/geophysics/meteorology (particularly atmospheric pressure). They don't specifically say that the flood didn't happen, nor do they attack it. They just show certain timelines for fossils, or certain geological strata or certain physical relationships (in the form of equations) that make something like a global flood seem ridiculous. Maybe it happened on a smaller scale, but your will find its absurd to think it happened over the whole earth.

      You see, religions claim to "know" things and require absolutely no proof at all other than faith; which is belief without evidence. They won't admit when they are wrong even in the face of overwhelming evidence against their belief. That's not to say scientists don't believe things too and sometimes be stubborn about changing them, its just that religions don't believe things based on logic and evidence whatsoever. Even scientists are humans, and make errors sometimes. However, their training helps them remove illogical or absurd things from their minds rather than hold on to them when overwhelming evidence is put in their face. I don't think that religious fanatics are incapable of being as smart as scientists, I just think many of them are brainwashed or undereducated.

      Does all of this mean God doesn't exist? No. Its just that there is no evidence of them existing, nor is there necessarily a reason they must exist. I for one am not sure. I admit it is possible, but I have not seen evidence to support it nor do I see a theory that holds up when tested that shows there must be one. Some people choose to believe there is no God, some people believe there probably is, and some people simply don't know. Whatever you believe is what you believe, but please don't assume that scientists are out to get you, or make you change, or disprove god. By definition the existence of God couldn't be proved anyway, since even if we "found God", how do you know its not just a super-advanced alien being? Even if their is an afterlife you won't truly know if God exists because for all yo

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    6. Re:no dark matter... by elistan · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm no cosmologist, but my understand is that there IS direct evidence of dark matter - in the way galaxies collide. Normal matter collides because it interacts through EM and hence slows down, while dark matter doesn't and doesn't. This can be seen by comparing X-ray imaging to map the normal matter and gravitational lensing to map the dark matter.

    7. Re:no dark matter... by niklask · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Do you have a hard time stomaching neutrinos too? When they were first proposed they could not be detected. Still they solved the very real problem of explaining the beta-decay spectrum.

    8. Re:no dark matter... by IICV · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I've long thought that the concept of dark matter was a manifestation of the inability of some scientists to admit "Hell, I don't know".

      ..what? Dark matter is, by definition, little bits of "hell, I don't know". Fuck, we don't even know if it's bits or bobs or particles or globs! We have no idea what it is at all!

      I mean, why do you think we call it "dark matter"? That is literally all we know about it - we know it has weak electromagnetic interactions (i.e, it's dark), but strong gravitational interactions (i.e, it's matter).

      The thing you really seem to object to is that scientists will say "Hell, I don't know - but I'll put a name on it, and start narrowing down what it can and cannot be".

      I mean, what do you expect? That we'll admit "hell, I don't know" and just stop? And just give up right there? Hell no - saying "I don't know" is the first step of doing science, not the last step!

    9. Re:no dark matter... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No one would have a problem with the notion of such a God. It's when the God of all space and time starts setting bushes on fire and demanding that people vote Republican that people start to call bullshit.

    10. Re:no dark matter... by UnknowingFool · · Score: 3, Informative

      I have always had a hard time stomaching the theory that dark matter and dark energy exist.

      It was never a theory. Based on a number of different observations, physicists could not account for matter and energy that appear to be missing from our observable universe. It was only called dark matter and energy because there was no other way to describe. Based on other determinations, this energy and matter would have weird properties if it existed. Scientists have never actually said it existence but only it might exist. If they could account for this gap of observations due to empirical error, they would embrace it but different aspects of observations suggest that the gap is not easily explained. So right now the focus is on explaining the gap.

      Think of the difference between Newtonian and Relativistic models.

      I think you mean the difference between quantum theory and relativity. Relativity encompasses Newton's models for gravity.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    11. Re:no dark matter... by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 3, Informative

      Dark matter is invisible, and if science has taught us anything repeatedly it is that nothing is invisible: End of story

      Electric fields, gravitational fields, magnetic fields, neutrinos, oxygen gas, nitrogen gas, carbon dioxide....don't mind me I'm just typing out loud.

    12. Re:no dark matter... by haruchai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, but a new, untested theory doesn't automatically disprove an older, also untested theory just because it sounds more plausible or because you like it.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    13. Re:no dark matter... by Kjella · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Agreed. I have always had a hard time stomaching the theory that dark matter and dark energy exist. It seems far too much like aether, i.e. something made up to fill a gap in knowledge without much evidence backing it up.

      The problem is that the universe is pretty good at ignoring people's bowel movements, a lot of things are completely unintuitive. If I look at a wall it looks damn solid to me, my gut feeling would be that radio and wireless can't possibly work. And if you told me there are particles that'll pass through thousands of miles of earth and stone and lava without even caring that it's there, I'd say you were ready for a room with padded walls if only it wasn't true. In short, past experience has shown us that this is an area where the universe has a habit of not acting the way people expect.

      That said, we do know our understanding of gravity is incomplete at the quantum level, we probably will get a better understanding of it as we go along. But the unexplained gravitational effect seems variable, lumped together just like real matter and not always directly in proportion to it. I could accept that we might have had to adjust gravity by some sort of factor but it seems a bit too erratic to be just a formula adjustment. I at least am pretty confident that we've not found all the particles yet and that this will be at least part of the explanation.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  2. Yay for phlogiston and aether by istartedi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yay for phlogiston and aether. Dark matter might end up on the list of ideas that physcists turned to in order to explain things that had other explanations. La plus ca change...

    --
    For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    1. Re:Yay for phlogiston and aether by Interoperable · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hopefully. Dark matter is a very inelegant solution to observations that don't agree with theory. Even so, working out what properties it must have, should it exist, is a useful exercise because it clarifies the problem more thoroughly.

      There seems to be a common misconception that incorrect theories were stupid ideas from the get-go. That's really not the case, until new evidence or new ideas come up the incorrect theories are every bit as valid as the ones that may turn out to be correct and the differences between the various competing theories may point the way to interesting new experiments.

      This new theory is probably wrong, but it's founded on an assumption that, while not currently accepted as true, is experimentally verifiable. That's the assumption that anti-matter and matter have gravitation fields of opposite sign. An experiment to determined the truth of that would be very interesting.

      --
      So if this is the future...where's my jet pack?
    2. Re:Yay for phlogiston and aether by Baloroth · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Exactly. It was the development of the theory of the aether that led to many of the experiments surrounding the properties of light that allowed the theory of relativity to be developed. For instance, we knew if aether existed it would create a "wind" that would slow light in some directions as the earth moved. The experiment to test that wind helped found the theory of relativity (although, interestingly enough, Einstein supposedly hadn't heard of the experiment when he postulated the constancy of the speed of light.)

      Aether was by no means a stupid theory, but it required a number of new properties previously unseen in material bodies, and it was theorized solely as a kludge to explain the motion of light through a vacuum. The analogy with dark matter is quite strong. Dark matter, too, has never been observed, and possesses properties of matter previous unseen or indeed thought impossible, and exists solely to bridge a gap between our model of how things should behave, and how things actually behave. This does not bode well for it. However, the experiment to test for its existence is quite likely to lead to something interesting, even if we have no idea what.

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
  3. TFA by mojo-raisin · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here's a link to the actual PDF (arxiv version) and not the pay version

    http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1106/1106.0847.pdf

  4. Re:Something is fishy by Daniel_Staal · · Score: 4, Informative

    Electromagnetism is stronger than gravity. Given that the particles in question also have the opposite charge, and are therefore attracted electromagnetically, it wouldn't make a major difference to them.

    --
    'Sensible' is a curse word.
  5. Re:Can't see the quantum vacuum for the dark matte by Goaway · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What really surprises me is, despite this, so many physicists have jumped on the bandwagon.

    This is because it is the simplest theory which fits available data. There are simpler theories, but they do not fit available data, and thus are of little value.

    Average Slashdotters have been more skeptical of they dark matter theory than physicists, from what I've seen.

    This is because average Slashdotters do not have even the beginnings of a clue about astrophysics, but think they are expert at every subject they ever heard mentioned on the internet.

  6. If you can't handle the concept of dark matter by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Then quantum phenomena must really get your panties in a twist.

    I realize this isn't a group of physicists here, but most of the arguments people here are positing against dark matter more or less boil down to "it's unintuitive". Seriously, welcome to modern physics guys.

    This new idea may be the start of something (and I must say this guy certainly doesn't lack in the self-esteem department), or it may fall apart as it fails to get further developed. But until it - or another alternative idea - gain some traction with the scientific community, it's a bit premature to start writing off dark matter. At the moment, it's the best solution we've got.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:If you can't handle the concept of dark matter by Cyberax · · Score: 3, Informative

      "I'd like a bit of better evidence, please, before I swallow something like that."

      1) Rotational curves of galaxies.
      2) Gravitational lensing - it's too strong for the amount of baryonic matter present.
      3) Bullet cluster ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_cluster ).
      4) Small galaxies - the smaller the galaxy the more dark-matter-dominated it is.

      The first one can be somewhat explained by MOND. But MOND can't really explain gravitational lensing (duh, it's Modified _Newtonian_ mechanics) and it is totally busted by 3) and 4). Vacuum polarization is MOND-like in this regard and probably can't explain them as well.

      Actually, the relationship between the amount of dark matter and normal matter in small galaxies is quite interesting. Unlike rotational curves and lensing it has an explanation that has nothing to do with gravitational properties of dark matter. Small galaxies have fairly shallow gravitational wells, so normal matter can be blown away by stellar winds and supernovae explosions. And since dark matter does not interact [much] with the normal matter, it tends to stay. Here's a nice overview: http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/08/the_smallest_mini-galaxy_in_th.php

  7. Re:if you can't see it, it doesn't exist... by causality · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You can detect dark matter. If it exists, we have already indirectly detected it. We have not yet directly detected it, but that is not because it not possible to do so, just that we have not succeeded yet. We are currently trying to do so.

    Using similar methods, there was a time when you could "detect" epicycles, too. Like dark matter they were a theoretical fudge factor designed to prevent a cherished theory from falling apart due to its lack of successful predictions and explanatory power. In the case of epicycles, the cherished theory was geocentrism. You would have been ridiculed extensively (and quite possibly be in danger of the Inquisition) for questioning it, not because your own theory wasn't viable or couldn't also explain the observed results but because "everybody knew" how "well-established it is" that the earth is the center of the solar system...

    If they teach scientists about the history of these things as part of their normal training, they don't do a very good job. At all.

    --
    It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
  8. Re:Can't see the quantum vacuum for the dark matte by bertok · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is because it is the simplest theory which fits available data.

    But it doesn't fit the data -- the dark matter theory is constantly being revised. First it's "90%" of the mass of the universe, then it's "70%", then we're back to "98%", then there's dark energy, then the fractions change again, and again, and again.

    That's not a fit! It's not like we started at, say, 80%, then refined the fit to 82.5%, then an additional data helped us narrow it down to 82.515%, and so on. It's just jumping all over the place.

    Secondly, it's not "fitting to the data", it's fitting to the difference between a theory and the data. There's a huge difference. And it's particularly galling that the "theory" used is Newtonian gravity, when it's been known to be wrong for a century! Several papers have been released that show that it's possible to make the need for dark matter vanish by using relativistic mechanics. Not exactly surprising that the "difference" is affected by the theory chosen!

    Every research paper about dark matter reads something like "we use a simplified theory of gravity because of [excuse], and then oh look, we find that our hugely simplified model doesn't agree with observations, so clearly there's an invisible something out there". The excuses vary between: "The other paper did it too", "Relativistic equations are hard, and I'm lazy", "I don't understand relativity so I don't know how it could possibly apply to galaxy sized masses thousands of light years in size", and "my computer is too slow to do this properly".

    This is because average Slashdotters do not have even the beginnings of a clue about astrophysics

    Yeah, well, I studied Physics at a university level, and I think dark matter smacks of hubris, laziness, and weak logic. It sounds an awful lot like chasing the error terms in Epicycles a century too late.

    The latest attempts to explain dark matter are an ever bigger joke, like Modified Newtonian dynamics. Here's a hint... we already have a "modified" theory for motion -- it's called relativistic dynamics!

    Until some physicist demonstrates that dark matter is still required to explain measurements when the theory used is the full general relativistic model with speed of light delay included, I'm just going to automatically assume that dark matter is bullshit.

    This kind of thinking is all too common in Physics. A classic example is the double-slit experiment. Every textbook states a formula for the spacing of the interference fringes that disregards a bunch of things, handwaving them away as "unimportant". A math-geek friend of mine in my physics class was upset by this lack of rigor, walked up to the whiteboard, and demonstrated that the simplifications can result in errors as large as ten percent or more in real-world scenarios!

    Imagine someone basing a new theory of light based on the difference between observed interference fringe spacing and the simplified theory. That would be stupid, wouldn't it? Why is it then acceptable for gravity?

  9. digravitational constant of vacuum is not 1? by pz · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Disclaimer: I'm a lay person when it comes to things like quantum physics.

    From my understanding of the arguments and analogies given in the article, the explanation is that vacuum does has a digravitational constant (the gravitational equivalent of the dielectric constant) greater than 1 in strong gravitational fields.

    But, by the same quantum fluctuations getting polarized argument, shouldn't vacuum also have a dielectric constant greater than 1 in strong electrical fields?

    Can't we test that last hypothesis pretty easily? Is it already known?

    The crux of the article's hypothesis, that anti-matter has opposite-sign gravity, seems like an attractive idea and one that should also be easily testable once sufficient anti-matter can be manufactured and contained.

    --

    Put my fist through my alarm clock with its ding-dong death inside my ear. - The Blackjacks.
  10. Re:all that phlogiston has to go somewhere by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 3, Informative

    And some types of dark matter are observed aka neutrinos.

    Neutrinos are too light to be Dark Matter. Their low mass means that they are produced moving at almost the speed of light so, if they were the Dark Matter, the "wrinkles" we see in the Cosmic Microwave Background would be far more blurred out than they are.

    If free neutrons didn't have such a short decay time, I'd consider that option as well.

    Sorry but neutrons interact via the strong nuclear force and so cannot be dark matter otherwise we would see it interacting with atomic nuclei.

    Without electrons the photon interaction with a neutron seems considerably hindered

    Electrons have nothing to do with photon interactions with neutrons. Neutrons are made of quarks so photons of sufficient energy can directly interact. Electrons can interact with neutrons either via EM (photon) or weak nuclear interactions.

  11. Re:Can't see the quantum vacuum for the dark matte by IICV · · Score: 3, Informative

    How can you possibly not know about the Bullet Cluster? That is pretty much blatant evidence that there appears to be something there which is both dark and massive. Wouldn't a theory of dark matter be appropriate when presented with such evidence? (and, by the way, structures like the Bullet Cluster were predicted by the theory of dark matter - people said "well if it doesn't interact electromagnetically, we should be able to see places where normal matter got pushed but dark matter didn't, like when two clusters collide" - so they set out to look for something like that, and lo and behold they found it!)

    And that's not even going in to the other things that dark matter predicts and nothing else does, like the Cosmic Microwave Background.

    Or you could just read Starts with a Bang, Ethan Siegel is a lot better at explaining this stuff than Slashdot is.

  12. Re:Can't see the quantum vacuum for the dark matte by maxwell+demon · · Score: 3, Informative

    But it doesn't fit the data -- the dark matter theory is constantly being revised. First it's "90%" of the mass of the universe, then it's "70%", then we're back to "98%", then there's dark energy, then the fractions change again, and again, and again.

    About the changing numbers, I'd like to see citations.

    Dark energy is a completely different concept than dark matter, completely independent of it, and used to explain completely different phenomena. The only thing dark matter and dark energy have in common is the adjective "dark".

    Note that we already know particles which have exactly the properties needed for dark matter: neutrinos. They are not massive enough to explain the observations, but they are a proof that particles of that kind can exist. It is of course not a proof that they do exist, but it shows that the idea is not as stupid as you want to make us believe.

    A classic example is the double-slit experiment [wikipedia.org]. Every textbook states a formula for the spacing of the interference fringes that disregards a bunch of things, handwaving them away as "unimportant".

    99% of all descriptions of the double slit experiment (and 100% of those in textbooks) are for explaining the properties of quantum mechanics, not for a quantitative description of an actual experiment. The unimportant parts are unimportant for understanding. It's like complaining that text books introducing free fall don't take into account air friction in their equations, despite the fact that air friction can even dominate a free fall.

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  13. Re:Bad science by haruchai · · Score: 3, Informative

    If you think that fundamentalists are a small, insignificant portion of US society, you must not be familiar with a small, insignificant portion of the government known as Congress.

    --
    Pain is merely failure leaving the body
  14. Dark Matter is *not* like the luminiferous aether by rknop · · Score: 4, Informative

    Dark Matter is not like the luminiferous aether.

    The luminiferous aether is a substance that was invented to explain something that seemed missing from our theories (specifically, what it is that the speed of electromagnetic waves given by Maxwell's Equations is relative to). It made predictions, those predictions were tested, and so the idea was tossed out.

    Dark Matter is a substance that was explained something that seemed missing from galaxies and clusters of galaxies (specifically, there wasn't enough mass there to explain why they held together given how fast things were moving). The idea of Dark Matter made predictions, those predictions were tested, and they *confirmed* Dark Matter.

    There's nothing magic about Dark Matter. And the lines of evidence are more than just some equations that don't balance out.

    More here: http://365daysofastronomy.org/2010/06/26/june-26th-dark-matter-not-like-the-luminiferous-ether/

  15. Re:Can't see the quantum vacuum for the dark matte by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is because it is the simplest theory which fits available data.

    But it doesn't fit the data

    Well, I am a physicist (doing my PHD, although not in astrophysics), and I can tell you that it certainly looks like the simplest theory that fits the data. I highly recommend Ethan's blog, who explains this very well, particularly http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/03/good_ideas_bad_ideas_mond_and.php and
    http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2009/09/dark_matter_part_i_how_much_ma.php. Notice, also, that theory predicts that the percentage of darks matter and energy changed during the history of our universe.

    Of course, the theory is not complete, and there should be further experimental confirmation, but it looks pretty good for now.

    This kind of thinking is all too common in Physics. A classic example is the double-slit experiment. Every textbook states a formula for the spacing of the interference fringes that disregards a bunch of things, handwaving them away as "unimportant". A math-geek friend of mine in my physics class was upset by this lack of rigor, walked up to the whiteboard, and demonstrated that the simplifications can result in errors as large as ten percent or more in real-world scenarios!

    Imagine someone basing a new theory of light based on the difference between observed interference fringe spacing and the simplified theory. That would be stupid, wouldn't it? Why is it then acceptable for gravity?

    Well, I work in optics, and I have no clue what you are talking about here... Is it because the usual derivation uses tan(alpha) ~ sin(alpha) ~ alpha? Or because it disregards the polarization of light? I can assure you that both of those approximations are very good "in most cases". But that doesn't mean you can't use the correct formulas, if needed. More likely, your teacher was oversimplifying the problem to get accross the most important concepts without his students being drowned by little details.

    But much, much more importantly, physicists know that arriving to the simplest model that explains all your experimental data is very important, because it lets you understand what's going on, instead of just making blind calculations. I can assure you that this is not an easy skill to learn, specially for math-loving students who are irritated by approximations (I know this from first-hand experience!).