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EFF Takes On Cisco's Role In China
decora writes "Several years ago, writer Du Daobin posted several essays on the internet, protesting such things as unfair taxes and the corruption of the media. He was then charged with 'inciting subversion of state power,' arrested, and after many legal twists and turns, tortured in prison. Daobin, along with several other dissidents with similar stories, decided to sue Cisco Systems (PDF) earlier this year under the legal theory that it aided and abetted China's violation of the Torture Victim Protection Act of 1991. As the case moves forward, the Chinese Ministry of Public Security has stepped up its surveillance, harassment, and interrogation of Daobin and the others. The Electronic Frontier Foundation has now joined the Laogai Research Foundation to draw attention to the case. As part of its opening move, it has asked Cisco to make public statements in support of human rights, hoping that the company's influence with the Chinese government will provide some modicum of protection for the threatened dissidents."
Can someone tell me what this spam is good for? It hardly makes any sense at all.
I think it's time we stop letting companies off the hook for helping to subvert freedoms as a course of just doing business. If we allow corporations to just keep walking over our freedoms and violating human rights, just to make a buck or because it's what their customers order they need to be held to account in the same fashion as war criminals and other international criminals. If we are going to berate and sanction china for suppressing freedom, then why are we allowing the people who created the tools that allow them to do it walk away like they had nothing to do with it. If we discourage companies from acting in an anti freedom fashion then perhaps they will think twice about doing it and investors will think twice about investing in them.
I got here through a series of tubes
When even AC is confused about his own post you know /. has lost its footing.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
"At Cisco, we strive to provide excellent products and services in the network backbone and infrastructure space. Our company philosophy discourages all forms of discrimination, violence and abuse, including human rights abuses. Although we will never condone the suppression of free speech, or torturing of political prisoners, we are bound to the laws of any country in which we operate. Cisco recognizes the law of the land and will act accordingly."
In other words, we aren't taking a stand. You can forget about that that, buster.
They can say lots of things without saying anything.
"Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"
and have no risk of law suit, why shouldn't the Chinese be able to also?
kudos for that. we really appreciate your hardwired determination in avoiding letting your blog be completely owned by payper sloth opinion shapers (until now?). thanks again. your sense of fairness & courage under fire will be missed.
Here
Of course, it doesn't stop them mistreating or firing US employees by the thousands.
nt
the US government does business with the Chinese, the US government supports other companies doing business with the Chinese, the US maintains sells bonds to the Chinese.
Until you hold the US government accountable for its actions how can you hold any corporation accountable? Or is this a matter of one has guns and the other does not?
Really, how do you permit with one hand and deny with another? Why not penalize the American's who buy goods made in China, why not hold Apple accountable as well, after all their products are produced there which enables indirectly all the abuses accounted to the government of China.
If we are to discourage companies then we need to discourage our own government as well. Apparently we are all gung ho to do so provided the party we go after can't retaliate against us.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Following the same line why not ban companies from hiring from foreign countries with lower minimal wages? Selling retired weapons to build theme parks, anyone? Why not attack the root of the problem which is an oppressive government? Oh, btw, borrow trillions from such a government is obviously not good for the protection of human rights, right?
EFF Takes On Cisco's Role In China
Note to editors: this, like most Slashdot headlines, can be read in two diametrically opposed ways. "Takes on" can be either "undertakes the burden of" or "actively opposes".
I applaud the EFF's efforts here but I seriously doubt this will make a difference on the ground in China, even if Cisco were to see the light and speak up on behalf the dissidents. I also think the EFF is mistaken about which way influence flows in the CCP-Cisco relationship. Like any Western company doing major business with China, Cisco has had to jump through all sorts of hoops, hand over a large amount control of local operations to party apparatchiks and work under contracts that change significantly and frequently after being signed.
Cisco's position in China is so compromised at this point that I don't see how they could stand up to the CCP in this case without pulling out of the Chinese market entirely and I just don't mean stop selling in China. They have suppliers, production facilities, hundreds of directly employees not to mention billions of dollars of IP in China. All of that is vulnerable to CCP action if Cisco were to get on their bad side. China isn't like the West, the government won't need warrants or due process to arrest Cisco employers, seize facilities and IP or just choke off Cisco's supply train like they did with rare earths a few months ago.
Cisco is in too deep to take a stand at this point, they have more to lose than the CCP does. The CCP has demonstrated repeatedly that human rights aren't a concern for them and given their hostile reaction whenever a Western government or NGO (Nobel Committee) explicitly or implicitly criticizes their human rights record they aren't exactly concerned about their international image either. Cisco on the other hand pretty much can't win this no matter what they do. Just like most any Western company doing big business in China these days.
Cheers,
Josh
"Listen: We are here on Earth to fart around. Don't let anybody tell you any different!" - Kurt Vonnegut
Chinese culture and Western ideals are orthogonal to each other. Those Chinese wishing something different should abandon China, move West, and help the West compete with the culture which rejected them.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
"under the legal theory that it aided and abetted China's violation of the Torture Victim Protection Act of 1991." The country you are referring to is in Asia. The law you are referring to was enacted in a country in North America. It is easy to see how you had the two continents confused, what with them both containing a word starting with the letter A, but nevertheless they are not the same, nor if they were would it mean that one country on that continent was required to implement all laws enacted by all of their neighbours (and neighbours' neighbours etc).
Don't get me wrong, torture is deplorable even if there is some case that can be conceivably be made for its legitimacy of purpose (prisoner X may/probably/definitely have/has knowledge of where bomb Y is about to go off, hence we should get what information we can out of him/her/it by any means necessary), but saying company Z is evil because they helped government C take actions that if taken in country A (not next door, not even close) would have been against the law is pretty out there. Stick with the fact that China took actions considered pretty fucked up by the vast majority of the rest of the world as shown by the existence of the United Nations Convention Against Torture (myself well and truly included) and I would agree with you. You don't need the whole "China is evil because they broke US law, and by extension so are the company that helped them" bollocks to round out the story.
Unless we are planning to globalize all existing laws - which is going to make switzerland and bermuda look significantly less attractive to big business as places to be (nominally) headquartered.
That's BS. Ethnically Chinese like living in a democracy together with the native people of Taiwan. Ethnically Chinese did enjoy freedom of speech in Hong Kong while outperforming China by a wide margin.
Many countries in the West had to live under dictatorial governments in the past. The Chinese have every right to reject their dictatorial government, too.
Those Chinese who don't like their fellow citizens to be free should abandon China and move to Libya. Oh wait - try Syria. Or ... well maybe they can just go to hell.
The Electronic Frontier Foundation should offer university level classes for people interested in issues surrounding internet and information freedoms... ...just so they could sell EFF U sweatshirts.
As opposed to the "Bend over and drop your pants" line that you get when trying to get on a plane in the US?
Cisco's worry is not the pesky EFF. Their reward for years of collaboration with the PRC in terms of suppressing free speech and outsourcing jobs to an authoritarian capitalistic country is Huawei. The same can probably be said for most companies that invest in China. The CCP is not stupid and fairly nationalistic. Western countries are convenience stepping stones for greater Chinese glory. . .
Does anyone on here believe Cisco cares about privacy?
Certainly not when profit comes up against customer privacy.
Cisco sold out to the PRC years ago and needs them more than the PRC needs Cisco.
This is why they are relativly tolerant of the rampant Chinese piracy of both its hardware and software.
Cisco makes gear to let governments spy on their citizens. Every major network equipment manufacturer makes it. All of them. Every major network operator buys it. Practically every government requires it if you're going to build a public network. They sell it, and, yeah, that means they support it, in every sense of the word.
It's called "Lawful Intercept" by its friends, and "sleazy narcing" by its enemies.
It's an idea pioneered right in the U S of A. CALEA, Baby.
Sometimes it's used for Good(TM) and sometimes it's used for Evil(TM). No government is immune to the Evil. The US government, specifically, is almost certainly abusing it, and even if it's not, the EFF sure thinks it is.
Even if it's not being abused in the sense of illegal use, it's being used heavily to enforce laws the EFF and its main backers don't agree with.
So why isn't the EFF coming down on Cisco for selling such equipment in the US? It's not like the EFF believes the US is pure. Nor any of the many other major governments.
The fact is that all the network gear makers sold out ages ago, back when this whole spying thing first came up in the US. The precedent is set, the principle is established. There's no going back. Governments get what they want on the Net, period. US, China, North Korea, whoever.
At this point, it's self help. Encrypt your data, use relays, use steganography, whatever. But it's way too late to try to fix the equipment makers. The EFF is just grandstanding.
the details are all inside.
you are right, that is a pretty horrible headline. i will try harder next time.
The Chinese government has made Cisco afraid it won't have access to a huge market. The only thing worse than not being able to compete in a major market is having to close up shop. A big company like Cisco being killed off would show corporations they can get bitten for getting in bed with governments. I think I'd be OK with no Cisco in the world if it sends a message to corporations to stay as far away from totalitarian regimes as their lawyers can keep them.