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Gang Used 3D Printers To Make ATM Skimmers

An anonymous reader sends this excerpt from a post by security researcher Brian Krebs: "An ATM skimmer gang stole more than $400,000 using skimming devices built with the help of high-tech 3D printers, federal prosecutors say. ... Apparently, word is spreading in the cybercrime underworld that 3D printers produce flawless skimmer devices with exacting precision. Last year, i-materialize blogged about receiving a client's order for building a card skimmer. In June, a federal court indicted four men from South Texas whom authorities say had reinvested the profits from skimming scams to purchase a 3D printer."

212 comments

  1. Why not use the printer... by Deages · · Score: 1

    ...to just print money? Flawless logic.

    1. Re:Why not use the printer... by Nasajin · · Score: 1

      Why stop there? Just print anything you need. Food, homes, clean air, world peace, immortality serum. At that point, the world is pretty much your oyster.

    2. Re:Why not use the printer... by lxs · · Score: 2

      Yeah! Let's print oysters.

    3. Re:Why not use the printer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why stop there? Just print anything you need. Food, homes, clean air, world peace, immortality serum. At that point, the world is pretty much your oyster.

      But what about cheap slutty beautiful women? You can't print that! You need cold hard cash!

    4. Re:Why not use the printer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You wouldn't steal a Ferrari, so why would you print one? Oh, you're not printing Ferraris anymore? Well are you using wheels? Ferrari just patented the wheel, and will sue you for making cars in general now. The 3d printer is bad for jobs. What will happen in all the Ferrari factories if you can make your own cars?

    5. Re:Why not use the printer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What will happen in all the Ferrari factories if you can make your own cars?

      The production floors will be subdivided into cubicles and filled with ex-SCO lawyers.

    6. Re:Why not use the printer... by darekgla · · Score: 1

      And what are we doing now ? :) The money has no real value ,its just a commonly accepted idea with exclusive right to print given out to banking industry.Aside the immortality serum anything is just a matter of money...

    7. Re:Why not use the printer... by gilleain · · Score: 1

      Why stop there? Just print anything you need. Food, homes, clean air, world peace, immortality serum. At that point, the world is pretty much your oyster.

      But what about cheap slutty beautiful women? You can't print that! You need cold hard cash!

      I guess you haven't seen that documentary called "Weird Science". It's very informative on this process.

    8. Re:Why not use the printer... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      The wheel is already patented in Australia. A patent reform activist patented it years ago in order to demonstrate that the Australian patent office was ridiculously lax in enforcing even the most basic of originality standards.

    9. Re:Why not use the printer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You need cold hard cash!

      Then print it, dear Eliza.

    10. Re:Why not use the printer... by davester666 · · Score: 1

      I call dibs on printing out a copy of Earth.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    11. Re:Why not use the printer... by metaforest · · Score: 1

      Magratheia might have some legal issues with you doing that. I believe they hold the paten on earth and it's derivates.

  2. Very broken system by syousef · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When a 3d printer can make a decent skimming device (or disguise one) you can't help but think the system is truly broken. Computer security has progressed in leaps and bounds - it isn't perfect and it certainly isn't idiot proof. But banks are still using hand written signatures and easily faked devices while all but ignoring the risk. Heck they're introducing pinless low value transactions at shopping centers in Australia. I'm ANNOYED that my card can be used without either a signature or a pin number verification being used. It means there's significant risk that me or my wife lose a credit card and don't immediately discover it, we'll be up for a very large sum of money. And even if we're not, we won't have access to the money while the issue is resolved.

    It's not sustainable. The banks need to be held more accountable.

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    1. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      When a 3d printer can make a decent skimming device (or disguise one) you can't help but think the system is truly broken

      Spare us the dramatics. I'm not sure what "system" you're claiming is broken, or what you expect "computer security" to do about intercepting input from a human before it ever reaches the actual computer.
      I think you're confused as to what an ATM "skimmer" really is- it's a physical device you place over the keypad and card-reader which harvests the data while seamlessly passing the input to the ATM itself. A camera is used to observe the display. If you've got some kind of specific idea on how to defeat such fraud, then by all means post it instead of your pointless doom-and-gloom whining.

    2. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not all banks ignore the threat. Here's a particularly interesting blog post on the matter about BNZ's anti-skimmer overlay and (patented) fingerprinting technology.

    3. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, what do you suggest? Physical security is harder than digital - you can verify a crypto signature all you want, but how do you verify that you're dealing with the bank's card reader and not a fake one? Screw that, how do you verify that the ATM itself isn't fake?

    4. Re:Very broken system by syousef · · Score: 1

      Uh, what do you suggest? Physical security is harder than digital - you can verify a crypto signature all you want, but how do you verify that you're dealing with the bank's card reader and not a fake one? Screw that, how do you verify that the ATM itself isn't fake?

      Smart credit card, small onboard chip, and PGP would be one way. Wouldn't need to be a "card" either. Could be a small USB dongle.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    5. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I'm ANNOYED that my card can be used without either a signature or a pin number verification being used."

      I hate to tell you, but I can use your old credit card without either a signature or a pin number verification on the web for the last 20 years just by copying the numbers off it.

    6. Re:Very broken system by syousef · · Score: 1

      When a 3d printer can make a decent skimming device (or disguise one) you can't help but think the system is truly broken

      Spare us the dramatics. I'm not sure what "system" you're claiming is broken, or what you expect "computer security" to do about intercepting input from a human before it ever reaches the actual computer.
      I think you're confused as to what an ATM "skimmer" really is- it's a physical device you place over the keypad and card-reader which harvests the data while seamlessly passing the input to the ATM itself. A camera is used to observe the display. If you've got some kind of specific idea on how to defeat such fraud, then by all means post it instead of your pointless doom-and-gloom whining.

      Ever heard of 2 way verification? The ATM verifies the credit card. The credit card (or I would suggest usb dongle) should verify the ATM and not allow passthrough skimming operations.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    7. Re:Very broken system by Ultra64 · · Score: 1

      What I want to know is how they can install these things without anyone noticing.

    8. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cash if your friend. You never lose more than you carry.
      Online banking (not credit cards) seems pretty safe too.

    9. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If you've got some kind of specific idea on how to defeat such fraud,"

      Use a fucking chip instead of a magnetic stripe like the rest of the world does it since over half a decade.
      I've run a magnet over the strip on my chipped cards for years, since the only use it still has is to buy stuff in a brick and mortar shop in the US.
      Nobody else is using it anymore.

    10. Re:Very broken system by daid303 · · Score: 1

      My bank fitted all ATM's with translucent green card slots, and a "idle" picture that shows "Do NOT insert card if slot does not match photo". Good luck on hiding your skimmer in something translucent.

    11. Re:Very broken system by neyla · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yeah, and there's absolutely no reason a "card-reader which harvests the data" should be possible to construct - and indeed with a well-engineered chip-card, it isn't.

      A magnetic stripe can obviously be read and duplicated. But a chip-card can use challenge-response. That is, to verify the card the protocol between ATM and card runs something like this:

      ATM: What's your public key ?
      Card: dead0011beef
      ATM: Prove it ?
      Card: Here's Trents signature that attest it.
      ATM: "Please sign 17ae4082b1f"
      Card: return sign(my_private_key 17ae4082b1f)
      ATM: verify(card_public_key, signature received in last step)

      The thing is, there doesn't need to be any easy way of reading out the private key of the card. What's needed is to use one of the many protocols that lets the card prove that it *knows* the private_key, without actually revealing that key.

      And this ain't science fiction - it's the way ATMs and retail-terminals *alreay* operates where I live. (though they're generally still *also* able to read magnetic stripes, for backwards compatibility, but they refuse to do so if your card is a chip-card. (the cards also tends to have chip -and- magnetic - the latter is only for use abroad on terminals unequipped for chips - and yes, that adds to risk!)

    12. Re:Very broken system by _4rp4n3t · · Score: 1

      Actually, Westpac (also in Australia) have come up with a pretty simple solution. The card reader slot is made out of translucent green plastic, with a holographic padlock etched into it. Not impossible to fake of course, but less than trivial.

    13. Re:Very broken system by powerspike · · Score: 1

      What I want to know is how they can install these things without anyone noticing.

      at 3am in the morning when nobody is around ?

    14. Re:Very broken system by lakeland · · Score: 1, Informative

      As someone who has helped to bring those card's you're annoyed at...

      Firstly, the security in those cards is exceedingly high. The banks are quite paranoid about extremely sophisticated dodgy merchants and/or consumers.
      But that aside, you're not taking much risk with the cards - if you report the card stolen then you'll get the money back. Yes you have to monitor it and there is a slight delay in getting it resolved. I don't know, perhaps I've drunk the kool-aid too much, it doesn't feel like a big cost for the benefit to me.

      In terms of why you have one - it's been both consumers and merchants asking for it. From a merchant's perspective being able to process sales faster means fewer staff required, more sales, etc. From a customer's perspective, it saves almost 30 seconds over say the chip+pin.

      Speaking only for myself, etc.

    15. Re:Very broken system by clarkcox3 · · Score: 2

      Simple:

      • Each card and ATM is given a public/private key pair.
      • The public keys are signed by the bank's private key
      • Every card also contains the bank's public key

      When the card is inserted, the ATM asks for the card's public key

      1. The ATM then verifies that the card's public key was signed by the bank, using the bank's public key.
      2. The ATM then encrypts a block of random data with the card's public key, and asks the card to decrypt it.
      3. If the card successfully replies with the same random data, it has just proven that it has the private key that it claims to have

      Then it's the card's turn to repeat the same process:

      1. It asks the ATM for its public key, verifies that it was signed by the bank, using the bank's public key.
      2. The card encrypts a block of data with the ATM's public key, asks the ATM to decrypt it

      At this point, both the card and the ATM know that they are talking to the appropriate device. Each device can then generate a symmetrical key for that session, and encrypt it with the other device's public key, and use those keys for any further communication.

      --
      There are no tiger attacks in my area and it's all because this rock I'm holding keeps the tigers away.
    16. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sure, but unfortunately the designers of systems like that do not stop at that point, but they continue thinking "what if we could also add this feature".
      So what happened is that they thought of a feature where a card would be authorized without providing a PIN. Just the presence of the card is enough.
      And they added a feature to check a pin provided in cleartext, maybe for simpler devices.
      And they also designed in a feature which allows the card and reader to negotiate what kind of method they will use for this transaction.

      All this mishap together provides the mechanism for a man-in-the-middle attack, where the customer inserts his card in a skim device, containing a processor that talks to the real reader and the customer's card, and modifies the negotiation protocol elements in such a way that the transaction will be done with plaintext PIN or no PIN at all.

      Thus they can skim smartcard transactions even on a chipcard. Just because its design was made too complicated.

    17. Re:Very broken system by rhook · · Score: 1

      It takes a second and the skimmers are small enough to conceal in your hand. People also tend to not witness what happens in the middle of the night.

    18. Re:Very broken system by gshegosh · · Score: 1

      While I agree with most of your points, I think that you're doing something wrong if you'd be up for a large sum of money in case when your card is lost. Why not have a subaccount in your bank, that has no access via a card and where you put all the savings? I never have more than 2-5 hundred bucks on the account accessible via debit card.

    19. Re:Very broken system by gshegosh · · Score: 1

      Isn't there a cctv camera in every single ATM? Do not "they" have image recognition algorithms? ;-)

    20. Re:Very broken system by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      The problem is, is that banks use a closed pair system. And it's propritary. The 'chip' system that's going into use in north america and in other places? Eh? Broken. The rfid stuff? Broken. Most of it is still in the deployment phase and all that still. The real problem is, is information security for most financial, not to mention businesses is look at from a perspective of 20 years ago. That perspective is: Not noteworthy. Meaning until there is something so fucking serious that it shakes the business world to it's knees will it change.

      Well governments can make laws over it, that's a bandaid solution. Even when the laws are the sledgehammer or wrecking ball option. Information security is broken that's all there is to it. This is apparent when you have people using things like facebook, and google+ happily handing away the things that can get can ruin them well forever.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    21. Re:Very broken system by Captain+Hook · · Score: 1

      if you report the card stolen then you'll get the money back.

      Thats not really the point is it, when I go out with cash, I carry what I need to use and thats it, which normally means £20-30.

      But the credit card based paywave stuff as far as I know pretty much lets you have up to your card limit so long as the payments were small without ever challenging for authentication. I would hope that the banks would start restricting it if they found me spending a £xxxx in small transactions but I'm not convinced.

      That means that street crime becomes worth the effort again, someone lifts my wallet (either with stealth or violence) and they could gain access to large amounts of money.

      --
      These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
    22. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      My bank did this too. Took about 3 weeks before we saw the first new skimmers.

      They're translucent green, almost look like a screen cover for a phone.
      They fit under the new green card slot, where the green plastic protrudes over the actual card entrance to the machine.
      You have to look CLOSE to notice it; almost invisible.
      Amazing little devices, they'll actually using the insertion of the card itself to generate the power required to record the magstripe.
      The camera that shoots the PIN is actually in a different location, using a telephoto.

      Now they're talking about building anti-LOS boxes around all the ATMs to prevent the telephoto shot.
      (note that there are already anti-photo coatings on the screen, they're taking video of your hand movement and infering your PIN from that since the numbers are always in the same place on the screen)

      Next thing we need to do is start using all touchpad PIN entry and cypher it by having each of the keys (0-9) in a random place on the screen each time, that way, once you've entered your PIN, there's no way to know what number a certain gesture corresponded to.

    23. Re:Very broken system by dredwerker · · Score: 1

      My bank fitted all ATM's with translucent green card slots, and a "idle" picture that shows "Do NOT insert card if slot does not match photo". Good luck on hiding your skimmer in something translucent.

      You could just 3d print a cash machine and put a small lcd monitor in it and say sorry but your card has been kept please phone this number. Lots of cash machines aren't in banks anymore.

      --
      On a long enough timeline. The survival rate for everyone drops to zero. Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club, 1996
    24. Re:Very broken system by xaxa · · Score: 2

      if you report the card stolen then you'll get the money back.

      Thats not really the point is it, when I go out with cash, I carry what I need to use and thats it, which normally means £20-30.

      But the credit card based paywave stuff as far as I know pretty much lets you have up to your card limit so long as the payments were small without ever challenging for authentication.

      No, it prompts for a PIN "sometimes" for security. I expect if there are too many Paywave transactions in succession.

      The maximum transaction is £15 (for Visa Paywave in the UK), and the retailers who use it accept the fraud risk (they pay back the bank, I think), so it's likely to stay as takeaway food and drinks, newsagents, etc. I think the criminal is likely to get more profit more easily by simply taking your cash.

    25. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no and no one looks at the tapes unless there is a robbery, plus I bet a lot of these end up on non-bank ATMs that don't have cameras.

    26. Re:Very broken system by grumbel · · Score: 1

      If the banks would really care about those things they could install video surveillance. Take a reference picture of the machine, compare it with how the machine currently looks, if objects are out of place, give alarm and lock the machine down.

    27. Re:Very broken system by Viceice · · Score: 1

      How about using the physical card itself as the unique identifier?

      - Using a laser, etch a unique 3D circular pattern on a predetermined area on the card.
      - Upon use, the card is scanned by a rotating laser. This is sort of the same as reading data off a multilayered DVD, except the laser rotates, and the groves are not as fine as on a DVD, so it's more forgiving to abuse.

      This makes it pretty much impossible to skim using any sort of swipe action scanner or 2D scanner/camera.

      Come to think about it this is pretty much a punch card, except that the pattern is not apparent to the naked eye and 3 dimensional instead of 2...

      --
      Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
    28. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what about blind people - how will they enter their PIN ?

    29. Re:Very broken system by daid303 · · Score: 1

      I don't know where you live, but here all ATM's are in walls, so unless you print a whole building...

    30. Re:Very broken system by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      That's the problem, backwards compatibility exists on the cards so someone will read the magstrip and then take your card to an ATM which accepts them.
      Perhaps a short term solution would be to require a different pin number for magstrip use, and for ATMs which use the chip to tell the user so.
      Users could then choose not to use magstrip ATMs, and if they got skimmed on a chip ATM the pin number wouldn't be usable by the thieves.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    31. Re:Very broken system by MrAngryForNoReason · · Score: 1

      pinless low value transactions

      we'll be up for a very large sum of money

      Leaving aside the obvious contradiction in these two statements, the scenario you described isn't really how this works. If someone did steal your card, yes they would be able to buy a few cups of coffee with it, despite not having a pin or signature. The ceiling for contactless payments is normally £15 so running up a "very large sum of money" is going to be pretty difficult. Also there is very little incentive for a criminal to do this, criminals who steal credit cards use them to buy high value, easily resold items so they end up with cash. Fencing cups of coffee, sandwiches and newspapers isn't going to make anyone any money.

      Plus even if someone did steal your card, and somehow manage to run up a large number of fraudulent charges, these payments are covered by the liability shift as it is a credit card. They aren't stealing your money, they are making fraudulent transaction that your credit card company is liable for. So once you notice your card is missing or fraudulent transactions on your statement all you have to do is report it and the transactions will be removed. Almost all banks have a 24/7 free to call number for reporting fraud and can remedy the situation in minutes. Remember it is in their interests to prevent fraud as it is their money they are protecting.

      The banks need to be held more accountable.

      In the situation you described the banks are held entirely accountable. They are liable for any losses resulting from card fraud and are responsible for detecting and dealing with the consequences of fraud. I am not sure what else you expect them to do here.

    32. Re:Very broken system by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      And that alarm will go off every time someone walks past the machine, or debris is blown onto it.

    33. Re:Very broken system by MrAngryForNoReason · · Score: 1

      Online banking (not credit cards) seems pretty safe too.

      You seem to be implying that credit cards aren't safe? One of the main benefits of a credit card is that it has no connection with your money, you are spending the bank's credit. Any fraudulent transactions are the bank's problem not yours. Using a credit card is much safer than other means of payment as at no point are you risking your own money. Because the bank are liable for fraudulent transactions they react very quickly to any issues and work pro-actively to prevent fraud.

    34. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A couple points:

      Firstly it isn't that much money, as well as a per-transaction limit there's a per (time period) limit where the bank can configure the time period but it's usually a day.

      Secondly, very shortly after a card is reported stolen it will stop working on terminals and also notify the bank of the attempt. That makes it pretty high risk for the thieves.

      Yes it's not perfect, I think of it much the same as carrying cash and I think the lower use of cash does discourage wallet theft compared to the US.

      If it's any consolation I haven't heard of any increase in crime across Japan or Korea where similar technology is now fairly common.

    35. Re:Very broken system by MrAngryForNoReason · · Score: 1

      You could just 3d print a cash machine and put a small lcd monitor in it and say sorry but your card has been kept please phone this number. Lots of cash machines aren't in banks anymore.

      There have been a number of cases where criminals have set up their own ATMs to do just this. They don't need to fake them, they just buy them from a company who sells ATMs to independent retailers.

    36. Re:Very broken system by MrAngryForNoReason · · Score: 1

      Even if someone does steal your card and max out your limit, the worst case scenario is that your card is declined next time you try and use it prompting you to phone the bank, who then reverse the fraudulent transactions. Slightly inconvenient but not very as card services almost always have a 24/7 number and can solve these issues in minutes.

    37. Re:Very broken system by Crookdotter · · Score: 1

      Not that I agree with the broken system, but shouldn't biometrics fix this in one fell swoop? Iris and fingerprint as well as PIN should be about as secure as anyone needs.

    38. Re:Very broken system by Captain+Hook · · Score: 1

      My point wasn't about the inconvience. It's more about the fact that it becomes worthwhile for someone to try to nick my wallet again. For the last decade, as people switched to cards, they started reducing the amount of cash carried with them. It just wasn't worth the risk of trying to steal someones wallet to get a couple of small notes and some loose change.

      As someone mentioned above, eventually the card prompts for a PIN, but even assuming that was once 5th transaction (and I suspect under normal circumstances it will be less frequent than that) and with a £15 limit per transaction that is still £60/card in the wallet unless you can contact the bank to report the card stolen.

      It's petty street crime which I worry about with these schemes, not high-tech skimming.

      --
      These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
    39. Re:Very broken system by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Similarly while the requirement for a pin is a stumbling block, as i would need to find some method of acquiring the pin such as using a card skimmer...

      The requirement for a signature however provides no protection whatsoever...
      If i clone your card, i can simply sign the back of the fake card myself.
      If i steal your card i now have a copy of your signature which i can replicate.
      In either case, it is very rare for anyone to check, and even if they do signatures never look exactly the same anyway so its very easy to pass off an imperfect copy.

      Most of the cards allowing instant low value purchases have strict limits on the value of an individual transaction, and some also require you to pre load a certain amount of credit onto the card which is then depleted as you use the card, which is less dangerous than carrying cash.

      Credit cards however are a fundamentally flawed method for most online transactions... The problem being that the system is pull rather than push based. When you purchase something with a card online, you are effectively giving the retailer access to all your available credit and trusting them to only take what they're supposed to. And the problem is that when a retailer gets hacked all their customers get screwed too...
      On the other hand, with a push system you authorise the sending of the exact amount to the retailer, they have no ability to take more than you give them, similar to cash. And then if the retailer gets hacked, the only thing the hacker can steal is the retailer's money rather than the customer's money.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    40. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, and the green slots look like skimmers!

    41. Re:Very broken system by syousef · · Score: 1

      pinless low value transactions

      we'll be up for a very large sum of money

      Leaving aside the obvious contradiction in these two statements, the scenario you described isn't really how this works. If someone did steal your card, yes they would be able to buy a few cups of coffee with it, despite not having a pin or signature.

      They could go to every shop that accepts this and buy something under the limit $35. So they won't be able to buy a TV doing this. But how about stockpiling groceries? Or taking the whole gang to the local mall for takeout (limit of $35 per store guys)

      Now what if my wife lost her card and didn't notice. She can sometimes go a week without using it.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    42. Re:Very broken system by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      The signatures are OK, they aren't really supposed to be a security measure. They're supposed to be a deliberate act of agreement. The signature is supposed to be proof primarily that you agreed to the terms of the contract, not that it was YOU who agreed to them. It's a subtle distinction, but an important one.

      I don't know how it is in australia, but in the US, you shouldn't be making purchases with an ATM card. Debt cards are a much safer choice - there is a statutory limit of liability of 50 USD, and since it's debt, you simply don't pay the disputed charges during the dispute period, so you're never deprived of your money.

      That doesn't solve the skimming problem, of course, but making it the bank's liability instead of yours will go further in convincing them to do something actually useful about it...

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    43. Re:Very broken system by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      Many skimmers have their own read head that actually reads the card's magstripe as you insert the card into the ATM - no electrical connections to the ATM needed. Remember, here in the US don't have chip-and-pin - our debit/credit cards have a mag stripe (that's captured by the skimmer's read head) and a PIN you type, captured by the skimmer's built-in camera. That's all that stands between criminal X and you money.

      There are tons of pics of very clever skimmer devices on the web.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    44. Re:Very broken system by MrAngryForNoReason · · Score: 1

      At some point your wife would notice and report the card stolen, at that point the bank would check through all the transactions with her to establish which were fraudulent and then reverse them.

      What is more likely though is that the bank would flag the card usage as fraudulent and call her to ask her about the transactions. Going to every shop in a mall in quick succession and buying just under the limit would almost certainly be flagged up by the bank's fraud prevention systems, prompting them to get in touch and check if they were genuine.

      Even if they didn't flag it up for a week or two, and whoever stole the card ran up hundreds of dollars of charges it is the bank's problem not yours. Depending on the circumstances either the bank of the shop owner will be liable for the transaction and have to foot the bill. You won't be liable for a penny.

    45. Re:Very broken system by MrAngryForNoReason · · Score: 1

      It just wasn't worth the risk of trying to steal someone's wallet to get a couple of small notes and some loose change.

      When people get mugged the value of their phone, watch, jewellery, handbag, sunglasses etc. massively exceeds the amount of money the average person carries and all of those things can be easily sold on for cash. That is what muggers are interested in, not a credit card that will be cancelled within hours and introduces a much higher risk of being caught as it is trivial for the police to check the transactions made and pull CCTV footage of the person using the card.

    46. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Next thing we need to do is start using all touchpad PIN entry and cypher it by having each of the keys (0-9) in a random place on the screen each time, that way, once you've entered your PIN, there's no way to know what number a certain gesture corresponded to.

      Unfortunately, there's also no way a blind user could use such a machine, potentially leaving a bank that installed one open to legal action.

      (Captcha: attorney. heh.)

    47. Re:Very broken system by crimperman · · Score: 1

      In the UK it's quite common to see ATM's as free standing units in shops, pubs or inside bank lobbies. There are even ones which are converted phone boxes. Mostly the ones outside banks will charge you a flat rate for a withdrawal but people still use them. Whilst the latter might be a little harder to cart around the former is quite plausible. You'd just need somewhere to leave it.

    48. Re:Very broken system by dredwerker · · Score: 1

      I don't know where you live, but here all ATM's are in walls, so unless you print a whole building...

      In the UK cash machines are all over the place. In corner stores for example. Stand alone kiosk type things. google kiosk cash machine.

      --
      On a long enough timeline. The survival rate for everyone drops to zero. Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club, 1996
    49. Re:Very broken system by firex726 · · Score: 2

      But isn't the skimmer just making a cloned copy of the information contained in the magnetic strip?

      How would the CC or ATM know that there was a skimmer involved?

    50. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any gas station, mall, restaurant etc etc all have the smaller, free standing units and have for a lonnnngggg time here.. so I'm not sure what past decade your area is living in but you'll only find ATMs in walls at banks around here (or secured to the ground in the drive-thru part of the bank)

    51. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they can justify the cost, why not? If a casino can put a camera in every corner of a building, every ATM can be covered. It's just how much payback they'll get. In the case of a casino, it's worth it to them to make sure there's no one (other than the casino) stealing money.

    52. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heck they're introducing pinless low value transactions at shopping centers in Australia. I'm ANNOYED that my card can be used without either a signature or a pin number verification being used. It means there's significant risk that me or my wife lose a credit card and don't immediately discover it, we'll be up for a very large sum of money.

      Really now.

    53. Re:Very broken system by Guidii · · Score: 1
      Biometrics are cool. But I'm not looking forward to the day that muggers start lopping off fingers.

      And yes, it will happen.

    54. Re:Very broken system by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      One of the banks here fitted grey plastic devices in the card slots supposedly to prevent skimming, unfortunately the devices they fitted look exactly like skimmers.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    55. Re:Very broken system by camperdave · · Score: 2

      This isn't the 1980s anymore. ATMs can be about as small as a payphone. They have freestanding units. They even have mobile ATMs for places like county fairs. .

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    56. Re:Very broken system by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      I don't know where you live, but here all ATM's are in walls, so unless you print a whole building...

      In both Canada and the US I have routinely seen free-standing ATMs (usually with jacked up transaction fees) in all kinds of places for over a decade now ... hotels, bars, convenience stores, malls, airports.

      I'm surprised you've never seen them -- they're actually quite common. Like, all over the place common. They've been in widespread use since at least 1998 when I spent some time in San Francisco.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    57. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly! When has the government or laws ever accomplished anything. It's all just a communist plot to opress Jesus people!

    58. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed, meanwhile the skimmers would just come up with a more realistic copy - they're only doing the bare minimum they need to to fool the human eye at the moment. If they needed to do more, I'm sure they could.

    59. Re:Very broken system by XDirtypunkX · · Score: 1

      In Australia the bank is actually liable if your ATM card is skimmed, as it is their security that has been compromised.

    60. Re:Very broken system by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      Because the camera staff will get in the habit of pressing the false alarm button every time it goes off without really checking first.

    61. Re:Very broken system by delinear · · Score: 1

      There's no reason they can't use both methods. If only blind people were using the physical keypad it's going to be much more hit and miss for skimmers and a much smaller audience to educate on ways to obfuscate pin entry. The difficulty then is encouraging the users to switch to the more secure method, if you provide both people will inevitably stick with what they're used to, but at least those of us who recognise the benefits can take advantage. Of course, incredibly thin screen overlays that duplicate the ATM OS will be the next logical step (I saw a demonstration of an e-ink display embedded in a credit card last week), but at least it'd buy us a little time!

    62. Re:Very broken system by delinear · · Score: 1

      What worries me more is that the bank would probably cancel my card before phoning to check even if it was me making the purchases. I then have to go through a very uncomfortable week (I rarely have much cash to hand, card is more convenient). My bank already do this (and have done this to me twice in the last year) when they see what they consider suspicious buying activity, such as when I went through a period of buying a few bits on eBay after a long period of not using it. In fact, on that occasion they did phone me and ask if it was me making the purchases, I said yes and they canceled my card anyway, because it had been flagged as potentially fraudulent! (And to make matters worse, this was two weeks before I was due to leave for Italy, where I'd planned to use my card instead of carrying lots of Euros, so I have a very fraught week until the replacement arrived). Knowing that I have to worry about whether buying two coffees in a 90 minute period might flag me as a fraudster is just going to have me carrying cash around instead.

    63. Re:Very broken system by Yetihehe · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but here in Europe we have chip-and-pin cards. With mag stripe... In mall cashier scans the mag stripe and then inserts card into chip reader...

      --
      Extreme Programming - Redundant Array of Inexpensive Developers
    64. Re:Very broken system by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      No, they need to get rid of having the transaction depend on tokens that leave the card.

      Make the ATM card a smartcard with an embedded private key, and a display/keypad. You connect it to the ATM machine, and request a transaction. The ATM sends the request to the card for authentication. The card displays the amount on the display and requests a PIN. The user types the PIN into the card and then the card signs the transaction request, which can then be sent to the bank. This works online or offline, and for both ATM withdraws and credit card transactions. It can't be defeated without stealing both the card and capturing the PIN, which isn't going to be as easy if it is typed into the card directly.

      The card can use near field or any number of technologies to connect. With adapters and maybe an acoustic modem it could work with PCs or phone transactions as well.

      The concept of transactions being safeguarded by a big number that you give to every merchant you use is just fundamentally broken.

    65. Re:Very broken system by gknoy · · Score: 1

      Skimmers are often installed at gas stations, too -- the banks don't have control over that as much. As someone mentioned, it's apparently easy to install.

    66. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Saw one of those mobile ones at an event in Montana last month. I actually took a picture of a guy pouring gasoline into a ATM thinking i would be getting good footage of the world's worst robbert for America's Dumbest Criminals. Apparently the thing has a gas generator and used a cellular modem to verify the transactions.

    67. Re:Very broken system by shaitand · · Score: 1

      An RSA type system with a changing one off code. The card wouldn't function without it so intercepting the card and one of the codes would do nothing for you. BTW they already do this at some ban

    68. Re:Very broken system by Zeroko · · Score: 1

      My applied cryptography professor was fond of saying that biometrics are just a password you cannot change.

    69. Re:Very broken system by ais523 · · Score: 1

      The idea of the cards is that the customer should insert the card into the chip reader themself, and not let the store staff get their hands on it at all. I always insist on doing this, just in case (and have upset a few shop staff in the process). If other people did at well, it'd be one theft vector closed off, but it seems unlikely; people are all in the habit of giving their card to the cashier.

      --
      (1)DOCOMEFROM!2~.2'~#1WHILE:1<-"'?.1$.2'~'"':1/.1$.2'~#0"$#65535'"$"'"'&.1$.2'~'#0$#65535'"$#0'~#32767$#1"
    70. Re:Very broken system by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      I once took a pin and used a twist-tie to attach a piece of paper with the number 3 written on it. In general, however, I leave my pins unnumbered.

    71. Re:Very broken system by swv3752 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you need better laws. In the US, the most you can be held liable for is $50 and most Credit cards hold you to $0 liability. At that point it is in the Store's best interest to make sure the card is legit as they will be the ones left holding the bag.

      --
      Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
    72. Re:Very broken system by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Most do still use PINs though. There is often a second hidden camera to record the numbers that customers enter as well, or there's a keypad underlay, or even someone just watching you.

      Basically if you've got an unattended device then there's probably a way from someone to cheat with it. They even do this on gasoline pumps.

      I'd like to see more secure ATMs that are inside of banks. So that it is much harder to modify them because someone is watching them all day, though at night you'd have to use an outdoors ATM or wait until the next day. But it's probably safest (and most annoying to the bank) to use a real teller.

      It's generally a bad idea to use ATMs in an unsecure location anyway, just for your own physical safety.

    73. Re:Very broken system by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      You don't need to replicate the entire ATM. Some of these devices just fit over the card slot.

    74. Re:Very broken system by hrimhari · · Score: 1

      Next thing we need to do is start using all touchpad PIN entry and cypher it by having each of the keys (0-9) in a random place on the screen each time, that way, once you've entered your PIN, there's no way to know what number a certain gesture corresponded to

      You mean, something like this? (Google translation)

      --
      http://dilbert.com/2010-12-13
    75. Re:Very broken system by swv3752 · · Score: 1

      A number of banks allow you to generate a temporary cc number with a preset spending limit. If you do not trust a retailer, use that. If you trust Paypal, well that is a push system.

      --
      Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
    76. Re:Very broken system by innerweb · · Score: 1

      Braille pad.

      --
      Freud might say that Intelligent Design is religion's ID.
    77. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Until my fingerprints are damaged/skimmed or my eyes are damaged.

      Also should any of them be skimmed, how will I change them?

    78. Re:Very broken system by dougmc · · Score: 1

      Isn't there a cctv camera in every single ATM? Do not "they" have image recognition algorithms? ;-)

      So you walk up to the ATM from the side, put a sticker over the camera. (Possibly days before you install the skimmer.) Or just do it with a mask on.

      And as already said ... many (most?) non-bank ATMs don't have cameras. Probably because they don't think they're cost effective.

    79. Re:Very broken system by lonecrow · · Score: 1

      I was also under the impression that the scanning device performs the verification of that card/pin and then sent a simply "yup its good" to the server. Meaning that a comprised machine could just fake the verification (eg. no pin).

      Is that correct?

    80. Re:Very broken system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      first off let me state that I completely agree with you. But you've totally under-estimated the banks arrogance. At least in the USA & some agreements in Canada as soon as they introduce the PIN & chip system send you an adjustment of the terms of service (who reads that stuff anyways right). If you do take the time to give it a gander then you will notice that the banks deem the PIN & Chip system and unbreakable and say that any charges incurred on the card are yours and yours alone. Yet for the credit cards they include an RFID chip in them which has a shared key which is decrypted at the terminal level and not using a client server environment. So this un-breakable system has a very insecure wide-open back door and I can no longer dispute the charges...I cannot wait until these arrogant baby boomers get fired.

  3. A "GANG"...uhhhh by Dj+Stingray · · Score: 0

    A gang using 3D printers. Hardcore. Must have been a gang from Utah. Only white people live here.

    1. Re:A "GANG"...uhhhh by itsenrique · · Score: 1

      Because people of all races, namely black people, are never involved in sophisticated electronic theft?

  4. economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    90's was the internet. 1890's was electricity. Impeach president for slowing next age of innovation ruining economy.

  5. And did you know... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

    ... that CAMERAS can actually be used to take pictures of naked people?!

    It's foolish to blame the tool for the crime. That takes people.

    1. Re:And did you know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I didn't believe this, so have tested it and indeed they can.

    2. Re:And did you know... by _4rp4n3t · · Score: 1

      And now you're in gaol?

    3. Re:And did you know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I completely agree with you.People should be blamed for all the stuff like that!It is really foolish to put the blame on some kind of tool!

      Vacation

    4. Re:And did you know... by johnsnails · · Score: 1

      I'm sure I will get SHOT down for not RTFA but here goes... -- are you sure? http://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/09/21/0013255/US-Military-Moving-Closer-To-Automated-Killing

    5. Re:And did you know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... that CAMERAS can actually be used to take pictures of naked people?

      Could you provide evidence of this wild claim?

    6. Re:And did you know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point is not the tool being blamed, the point is that the security of the banks is
      weak.

      Seriously, try thinking before you write comments, you stupid cunt.

    7. Re:And did you know... by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      is your wife interested in photographs, eh? Know what I mean? Wink wink.

    8. Re:And did you know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who is blaming the tool?

  6. How long till they can print money? by Sasayaki · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I've always wondered what the economics of the world of cheap, prolific, effective 3D printers is like. If anyone can create basically any material good, what's the economics of that place like?

    Star Trek had replicators, which could basically make anything, even food or water (except for a few things which were a de-facto currency). They were basically communists, which doesn't work with people being people but might work if anyone could create whatever they wanted.

    But what about things that can't be replicated/printed? Like electricity, or land for housing, or water/food? Trek says that water and food are replicable, but with our current 3D printers obviously we can't make that just yet unless you can eat plastic.

    What's the economy of the western world going to look like if the only thing we need is material for 3D printers, power, land, food and water? Will provision of the un-replicable become the job of the state?

    --
    Check out my sci-fi book "Lacuna" at http://goo.gl/MVxX8
    1. Re:How long till they can print money? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and you think copyright is bad... Everything 3D objects (including food if the replicators can make it) would have thier copyright making new technology unusable.

    2. Re:How long till they can print money? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      It will be hard to get there.

      Look at the Shapeways videos. There's quite a lot of human labor required, and it misses on economies of scale.

      I think for a long time it'll be like with printers. Anybody can print an entire book at home if they want to, but getting it to the point where it really looks like a book is difficult and much more expensive than just buying it. Things will only change radically if the cost falls down so much that it's only a small percentage over mass production.

      Probably the first change will be towards more customization. You'll still buy say, a computer mouse, but if you want to be really cool you'll print a custom casing for it.

    3. Re:How long till they can print money? by Gori · · Score: 1

      You are forgetting the basic laws of conservation of energy and mass. There is a reason by replicators are a science fiction tech.

      Creating mass out of energy/electricity would require m/(c^2) Joules or energy. With the current speed of light and price of electricity, I would hate to see the power bill for replicating a glass of water.

      Even if you are not creating stuff out of energy, but just printing it from some base material, that base stuff needs to be produced, with the relevant chemical/material properties. That is not exactly for free either.

      So don't worry, the traditional economy isn't going anywhere just yet.

      --
      Complexity is a measure of our ignorance...
    4. Re:How long till they can print money? by lxs · · Score: 2

      The Espresso book machine does just that. You put in a pdf and a paperback pops out.

      Right now, there are only a couple of them installed around the world, but I'm sure that in time others will make similar systems and before you know it every copy place and bookstore will have three.

    5. Re:How long till they can print money? by Animats · · Score: 2

      I've always wondered what the economics of the world of cheap, prolific, effective 3D printers is like. If anyone can create basically any material good, what's the economics of that place like?

      The economics of 3D printing are worth noting. Complexity doesn't cost much, but material volume does. Watch size objects, yes. Auto bumpers, no.

      This is somewhat different from CNC machining, where complexity and high detail costs machining time. You have to use smaller tools and can't remove metal fast in high-detail areas. Big smooth surfaces can be machined quickly with big tools.

    6. Re:How long till they can print money? by doomsday_device · · Score: 1

      Actually, we have been living in a very similar situation since home power-tools became available. There is so much stuff you can make for yourself literally in minutes.

      People in the eastern bloc actually lived a lot like that. Food, electricity and housing (and a scarce collection of consumer goods) were provided by the state, a lot of the rest was made at home. They used to get blueprints for clothes they wanted and produce them themselves.

      It just gets problematic as long as there is any discernable difference between the self-made product and a commercial alternative. Any small defect in the self-made product will lead to a percieved lack of value.

      Otherwise, the economy will get more intellectual property based, I guess.

      BTW, power and water are already provided by the state in some western countrys. Food and land though, not so much.

    7. Re:How long till they can print money? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So don't worry, the traditional economy isn't going anywhere just yet.

      It will when (if?) truly intelligent AI takes over virtually all human jobs. But not now, as you said.

    8. Re:How long till they can print money? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, in theory you could get most of the energy to create something by breaking down something of similar mass. I would assume that the technology to turn energy into a desired form of matter would also be able to turn matter into energy.

    9. Re:How long till they can print money? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      I've already posted a thought experiment along these lines - whereby I invent a 3D copier device that can copy arbitrary items - regardless of how complicated they are - and the end result is composed of the same material as the original. So you could, for instance, put a meat pie in one end and get another, broadly identical and perfectly edible meat pie out the other. On a larger scale, you could put a washing machine or a television in one end and get another - perfectly operational - washing machine/television out the other.

      For the purposes of this experiment, we'll assume that the machine is cheap enough to buy, doesn't cost a great deal to run, can produce complicated items as a whole (as opposed to right now when the best you could do would be to build component parts which somebody would have to assemble) and has little in the way of size limits. You could, for instance, walk down the street, see a car you like and say "I like that. I'll have one of those." and poof! You've got your own car.

      It sounds like a lovely idea, but I think anyone inventing this would be killed. The reason being that the implications for society are huge - and I don't think society could change quickly enough to cope.

    10. Re:How long till they can print money? by Plunky · · Score: 1

      It sounds like a lovely idea, but I think anyone inventing this would be killed. The reason being that the implications for society are huge - and I don't think society could change quickly enough to cope.

      Can the machine reproduce itself? Like a virus invading a host organism, the rate of spread will be important.. if you invent such a machine, then the first thing to do is not sell it, but to make a bunch of copies and distribute them far and wide..

      Thats because "rich" will have changed. When there are no more "have"s and "have not"s, everybody will be rich, and the only people who will be richer than anybody else will be the ones who provide power and raw materials.. and that certainly won't be you.

    11. Re:How long till they can print money? by stephanruby · · Score: 1

      I've always wondered what the economics of the world of cheap, prolific, effective 3D printers is like.

      It will be just like the cheap, prolific, effective color jet printers we have now. The printer will be cheap, but the cartridges will be expensive. And your printer will be able to print lots of stuff, but it will never be as good as a commercial printer. For instance, by the time I get to own a printer that prints a house, or prints a decent painting, in a couple of days, someone else will have a printer that can print a Mona Lisa, or a working plane, in less than 2 seconds.

      Star Trek had replicators, which could basically make anything, even food or water (except for a few things which were a de-facto currency).

      Star Trek is an utopian fantasy. Now don't get me wrong, we can certainly learn from sci-fi, but Star Trek's technology is still so far off. I'm not sure humanity can even survive that long.

      They were basically communists, which doesn't work with people being people but might work if anyone could create whatever they wanted.

      That part will work fine as long as the originals are killed off and replaced through a replicator/transporter. Making people will be the ultimate solution. I envision it's going to be a genocide of massive proportions (assuming humanity can even make it that far).

    12. Re:How long till they can print money? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Thats because "rich" will have changed. When there are no more "have"s and "have not"s, everybody will be rich,

      Not necessarily. It would take time to distribute the theoretical machine and raw materials to make one. I suspect it would be destroyed long before sufficient copies could be made or distributed around the world.

    13. Re:How long till they can print money? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      And yet lawmakers think this is still science-fiction. Whent they will realize what is possible, they'll just try to outlaw that. *sigh*

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    14. Re:How long till they can print money? by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      I've always wondered what the economics of the world of cheap, prolific, effective 3D printers is like. If anyone can create basically any material good, what's the economics of that place like? ......
      What's the economy of the western world going to look like if the only thing we need is material for 3D printers, power, land, food and water?

      And now you have your answer: Fear mongering, FUD, and and backlash stories like this will blacken the name of 3D printers and the technology will never take off the ground to reach the situations you have imagined. The multitude of vested manufacturing and artificial scarcity interests will torpedo this technology at every possible step.

      This story probably isn't true. If it is true, it is probably exaggerated. If it is exaggerated, it has been so by persons being paid to sully the reputation of a budding technology. This is how the world works.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    15. Re:How long till they can print money? by daid303 · · Score: 1

      1 simple thing. Raw materials.

      I'm a happy owner of a personal 3D printer for the last week and a half. And they are nowhere near perfect yet (I wouldn't be able to print a convincing ATM front replacement) however, they cost electricity and raw quality plastic. So once you get that fusion reactor going, and manage to recycle plastic to the same quality (recycling degrades quality) then we'll be talking.

    16. Re:How long till they can print money? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With the current speed of light and price of electricity

      I can't believe those liberal "scientists" think it's in any way acceptable to fix the speed of light at a constant. This should be up to the free market to decide, not some disconnected do-gooders in white coats. People have the right to choose how fast their light can travel! It's disgusting to see how communist this country is becoming.

    17. Re:How long till they can print money? by ShooterNeo · · Score: 1

      How would you destroy something like that? A machine like this used right would be a more powerful weapon than an arsenal of ICBMs. And the power of exponential growth means that the 'powers that be' would have to destroy ALL copies and the blueprints for making them before at least one copy spreads to a place that they can't get to. Not to mention all someone has to do is wikileaks the blueprints and no one will ever be able to squash the technology then.

    18. Re:How long till they can print money? by master_p · · Score: 1

      Interesting question. The comparison with Star Trek is not valid though, because in Star Trek, they have managed to extract incredibly huge amounts of energy from the matter-antimatter reaction, and as we all know energy = matter. In other words, in Star Trek, energy is "infinite", which is not in our world. So, it doesn't really matter if we have 3d printers, we are never gonna achieve Star Trek's communism without huge amounts of energy.

    19. Re:How long till they can print money? by elsurexiste · · Score: 1

      You were trolling, but you fail nonetheless. Variable speed of light is an exising theory.

      --
      I rarely respond to comments. Also, don't ask for clarifications: a brain and Google are faster, believe me!
    20. Re:How long till they can print money? by vlm · · Score: 1

      I've always wondered what the economics of the world of cheap, prolific, effective 3D printers is like. If anyone can create basically any material good, what's the economics of that place like?

      The economics of 3D printing are worth noting. Complexity doesn't cost much, but material volume does. Watch size objects, yes. Auto bumpers, no.

      This is somewhat different from CNC machining, where complexity and high detail costs machining time. You have to use smaller tools and can't remove metal fast in high-detail areas. Big smooth surfaces can be machined quickly with big tools.

      Also, accuracy and surface finish. My CNC mill operates to at least 100 times the accuracy of the 3d printer I want to get. Seeing myself in the reflection on milled aluminum is normal. cheap 3d printer output looks like a slightly finer version of my kids playdough projects. . I think they will work well together... I'm planning on making sand casting mold patterns using the 3d printer, cast in aluminum (I don't have the safety gear for anything hotter, like brass or iron), then machine in the mill/lathe.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    21. Re:How long till they can print money? by vlm · · Score: 1

      It just gets problematic as long as there is any discernable difference between the self-made product and a commercial alternative. Any small defect in the self-made product will lead to a percieved lack of value.

      Until if flips around, which it already has in furniture. You want "perfect" mass produced furniture exactly like every other dorm room? Pay $200 at ikea, or maybe $50 at walmart for the not-so-perfect, no-so-durable version. On the other hand the hand crafted amish store will sell you a truly unique handmade one for $1000.

      Also the market kinda breaks down for something very generic like "bookcase", because there's only so much room for customization / styling, its just a buncha shelves with a common side and back. But the market for dining room tables will probably never implode like that because there's so much space for hand-carved legs and strange styling.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    22. Re:How long till they can print money? by SirGarlon · · Score: 1

      What's the economy of the western world going to look like if the only thing we need is material for 3D printers, power, land, food and water?

      A lot like the U.S. economy now. Manufacturing is reduced to a niche role, making things whose production is hard to automate. Commodities are still produced in large volume by few laborers using lots of automation. Most economic activity will be in services, just like now (but more so). The biggest change will be that all the retail strip malls will close down like the textile and steel mills did in the 1970's and 1980's. Except grocery stores, of course, and boutiques carrying hard-to-replicate items.

      Will provision of the un-replicable become the job of the state?

      There's no reason to assume that it will. There will still be a money economy used for the exchange of services, energy, raw materials, and un-replicable items.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    23. Re:How long till they can print money? by vlm · · Score: 1

      It sounds like a lovely idea, but I think anyone inventing this would be killed. The reason being that the implications for society are huge - and I don't think society could change quickly enough to cope.

      LOL as if the inventor wouldn't say "oh, hey, look at that ICBM, maybe I could use one of those..." all the way down to an infinite supply of bullets. Or, if he gets hit, units of transfusion blood... "look at that nifty hospital ER, that could come in handy now" "A bullet proof limousine, should have cloned that first".

      The country is full of people that didn't get that the govt was getting rid of factories and importing illegals to basically make the lower classes perma-unemployed, didn't get that newfangled internet thingy, didn't get that the current national business model is find an area of trust and then abuse it for profit. We'll get by with another disruption OK.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    24. Re:How long till they can print money? by vlm · · Score: 1

      The other problem is parallel invention. Once society is at a certain level it just seems to pop certain things out literally simultaneously. All you need is one guy, anywhere out there, to realize the same idea, and then...

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    25. Re:How long till they can print money? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a reason why the EBM isn't more popular: the cost of using one to print a typical 400-page book (excluding cost of the machine itself) is about $9 (see, for example, the U. Michigan FAQ about theirs where they explain the pricing policy). When you realize that the publishing industry gets such a book through the entire distribution channel (which typically keeps 40% of the cover cost) and into the hands of a consumer who'll often pay less than that for it at retail, you realize that it's a very expensive way of printing books. And if you add the hardware costs to the equation, you're probably looking at adding maybe another $0.50 or $1 to the cost of each book produced.

      Which brings us back to the GP's point: sure you can print a book yourself. But if you want it to be half-way professional quality, it'll be more expensive than buying the book from a mainstream publisher.

    26. Re:How long till they can print money? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've done a lot of thinking about food replicators in terms of 3d printers and I think that someone could come up with a food 3 printer. Instead of the plastic injection system, I imagine that some type of food substance could be used, maybe tofu, and from there, a combination of spices and flavorings could be used to create "food."
      So maybe with a combination of spices and flavorings we get beef crumples. Another combination of spices and flavorings and we have a "tofu steak." And so on.
      Ideally I could see this working out better with something like a protein powder or algae powder and the the 3d printer adding flavorings and shaping to form "foods".

    27. Re:How long till they can print money? by istartedi · · Score: 1

      They used to get blueprints for clothes they wanted and produce them themselves.

      You mean "patterns". My mother did this in America! In fact, a number of women in her circle of friends did that, and they would trade and/or reuse the patterns. You could buy them at fabric stores. Oh man, being a kid getting dragged to the fabric store with your mom. Not fun. If you were good, maybe icecream later. I think earlier in the 20th century a lot of women did this, and sewing was considered a basic skill of womanhood. I'm not a sexist. I'm just telling you how it was.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    28. Re:How long till they can print money? by PPH · · Score: 1
      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    29. Re:How long till they can print money? by smellsofbikes · · Score: 1

      >What's the economy of the western world going to look like if the only thing we need is material for 3D printers, power, land, food and water? Will provision of the un-replicable become the job of the state?

      For what it's worth, George O. Smith wrote a short scifi story about matter replicators -- essentially 3D printers -- and their effect on the world economy back in 1936, called "Pandora's Millions", that's collected in the excellent hard sci-fi book "Venus Equilateral". He predicts the nearly complete collapse of society, since we're based on a scarcity economy. The limitation is still energy required to drive the printers, which showed up in Neal Stephenson's Diamond Age, also a book based on what happens to society when 3D printers exist, and in that case, everyone had a printer but most people couldn't afford to use them for anything major because energy was so scarce. Stephenson's world wasn't really that different than ours, save that the rich had *very* cushy lives. In Smith's version, they already had free energy because of a previous invention, hence his forecast of complete societal collapse, at least until the bright engineers who are the heroes of the set of stories managed to figure out how to build things like capacitors that included internal charges, that can't be printed so can be used for money. Smith's version of the apocalypse had basically everyone who felt they needed jobs becoming service industry personnel because that's the only thing that a non-scarcity economy still needs (and even then, only until robots/automation can replace it.)

      With all that said, I think it's going to be many decades before we can print strained metals, like hardened steel or hypereutectic aluminum, so while I think we'll be seeing the gradual collapse of prices for cheap plastic crap that Walmart sells, I don't think we're going to be printing functional internal combustion engines of any sort within the lifetimes of anyone reading this.

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
    30. Re:How long till they can print money? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It sounds like a lovely idea, but I think anyone inventing this would be killed. The reason being that the implications for society are huge - and I don't think society could change quickly enough to cope.

      This person would have copied him/herself with the machine, and thus assassination would be mostly futile.

    31. Re:How long till they can print money? by Animats · · Score: 1

      Seeing myself in the reflection on milled aluminum is normal. cheap 3d printer output looks like a slightly finer version of my kids playdough projects.

      Right. The major 3D printer manufacturers have been working on that, though. Several now offer "finishers", which are convection ovens with a precise time and temperature cycle. They do just enough surface melting to get rid of the surface jaggies in plastic without deforming the part. This gets the smooth look of injection molded parts, or so claim the ads.

    32. Re:How long till they can print money? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The replicators in Star Trek also works as recyclers; and will turn matter into energy. They're a lot like the transporters in that respect. On the other hand; turning high entropy waste into low entropy food and drink can't possibly be free; otherwise we'd have be basis for a perpetual motion machine. You could turn spent fuel into new usable fuel.

    33. Re:How long till they can print money? by MirandaMcKennitt · · Score: 1

      If you want to know something about a world where every material good can be "printed", read "The Diamond Age" by Neal Stephenson.

  7. This just in! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Criminals use tools to commit crimes. Tools sought for questioning by police. Criminals plea bargain for lesser sentence in exchange for testifying against tools.

  8. Funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I find it funny these people manage to easily install these systems. Since the majority of these atms are just outside of banks. A simple solution would be to put cages around the atm like they do with soda machine. There is also the camera already built-in to these atms but they are obviously never checked. Another more expensive solution would be to rebuild these atms to be a more solid piece where parts can't be easily separated from each other.

    These solutions won't stop card scanners where you purchase things but you have the option for cash in those cases.

    1. Re:Funny by rhook · · Score: 1

      Another more expensive solution would be to rebuild these atms to be a more solid piece where parts can't be easily separated from each other.

      You need not separate any of the machines parts to install a card skimmer, it goes over the existing slot.

    2. Re:Funny by PPH · · Score: 1

      Right. My bank's ATMs have a semi transparent card slot with cool blue LEDs buried deep inside the mechanism. Anything stuck on the front would be immediately obvious (to anyone paying attention).

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  9. Goin' Digital! by Anachragnome · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I was having a discussion with my daughter (an artist) the other day about protecting her work, and much of what we discussed applies to this technology--when you get right down to it, the moment you convert any product into a digital format, and expose it to the internet in any way, you lose a great deal of control of that creation, if not all.

    This technology is about to do that to physical objects, by proxy--the dimensions are what are actually being digitized. The end result will be the same though--freely available physical products. The only catch is that the user must provide the physical medium...kind of like someone providing a blank CD in order to utilize an MP3 file. I predict that, one day, the king of "most downloaded" torrents will be a 3D printer file for a bong.

    This is the same genie that the recording/electronics industries let out of its bottle about 28 years ago. He appears to be having much adventure and does not wish to return to his bottle. Ever.

    1. Re:Goin' Digital! by rolfwind · · Score: 1

      Maybe she could focus less on protecting her work and focus more on marketing her skill. That's taking a strength of the internet and making it her own.

      There was one author (of what type of work, Idk) who posted on here how he GPLed (iirc, otherwise just freewared) all his own work because he got commissioned more work that way. Maybe someone knows who I'm talking about and can provide more info.

    2. Re:Goin' Digital! by biodata · · Score: 1

      The problem is that this ties you into working forever. The other model (getting people to keep paying for the same thing forever) ensures that you can 'retire' in comfort after a few hits.

      --
      Korma: Good
    3. Re:Goin' Digital! by matunos · · Score: 1

      You can watch sports on TV, and many people do, but people still go to the stadiums.

      I can see just about any famous painting I want with a Google Images search, but I still go to museums.

      There's tons of fake designer handbags on the market, but Coach and Burberry still take in a lot of cash.

      Sometimes, there's just no substitute for the real thing.

    4. Re:Goin' Digital! by Lucractius · · Score: 0

      Or you could work hard... produce good work... get paid more for it... and then retire comfortably after building up sufficient savings/capital/financial independence that you feel set for retirement...

      Like every other person that works for a living.

      Being a creative person should != magic special income forever job.
      At a certain point... the scale tips, from being entitled to your fair share... to stealing from the common shared creative wealth of humanity for your own personal gain.

      --
      XML - A clever joke would be here if /. didn't mangle tag brackets.
    5. Re:Goin' Digital! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      A typical engineer's attitude towards art. Let me guess - you don't make money by writing the book, you get it by doing readings or something right? You don't make money by painting the painting, but by charging for t-shirts of the painting. You know what bud, there is absolutely nothing in this world that you can't do that can't be done more cheaply by a team somewhere in Eastern Europe, Asia or India. No skill you have, no knowledge you hold, no talent (because you certainly don't believe that talent is worth rewarding given your attitude towards artists) that can't be replicated by a few hundred thousand less well compensated people around the globe. Think about this in 20 years when you attacked the foundation of the artists income. There will be poetic justice (not that you believe in the merits of poetry or literature because that doesn't fit nicely into your worker drone paradigm). Because your job is on pretty fucking shaky ground as well - because if a company can get the same level of drivel (and your post indicates that your intellectual skills aren't anything exceptional) out of someone much cheaper - they'll turf you like a used tampon.

    6. Re:Goin' Digital! by daid303 · · Score: 1

      I predict that, one day, the king of "most downloaded" torrents will be a 3D printer file for a bong.

      It's named a "coat hook" but... well, judge for yourself http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:10537

    7. Re:Goin' Digital! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually I believe that is exactly the point. If someone is doing something that could be done better or cheaper by others, they get replaced. Why do you think outsourcing happens? Welcome to the (real) working world. Just because you think it's morally wrong doesn't mean that it doesn't make financial sense.

    8. Re:Goin' Digital! by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      It also doesn't fund you well enough to do "big" ideas on your own. OTOH something like Kickstarter does give access to this kind of funding as long as it's a Good(TM) idea and either has broad social value or has high niche value social or financial.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    9. Re:Goin' Digital! by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      A typical engineer's attitude towards art. Let me guess - you don't make money by writing the book, you get it by doing readings or something right? You don't make money by painting the painting, but by charging for t-shirts of the painting.

      Generally, no, you write the book or paint the picture as a commission. The engineer's version of art is everybody setting up a shop on DeviantArt, more or less. Doesn't matter much if it gets copied if what you do is custom.

      You know what bud, there is absolutely nothing in this world that you can't do that can't be done more cheaply by a team somewhere in Eastern Europe, Asia or India. No skill you have, no knowledge you hold, no talent (because you certainly don't believe that talent is worth rewarding given your attitude towards artists) that can't be replicated by a few hundred thousand less well compensated people around the globe.

      Yes, your point being? It's not new in IT, I knew about it when I was getting started. Yet I still manage to make money from it, go figure.

      Think about this in 20 years when you attacked the foundation of the artists income. There will be poetic justice (not that you believe in the merits of poetry or literature because that doesn't fit nicely into your worker drone paradigm). Because your job is on pretty fucking shaky ground as well - because if a company can get the same level of drivel (and your post indicates that your intellectual skills aren't anything exceptional) out of someone much cheaper - they'll turf you like a used tampon.

      There will be no poetic justice because lots of people already live in this nightmare world you're imagining and doing pretty well actually.

    10. Re:Goin' Digital! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You obviously don't know what an engineer does if you think that they are not just as creative as your precious artists. Sure, there are some cheap hacks that can easily be replaced by someone for less money or a hunk of technology. But the same is true for artists.

      A musician should get paid to perform; a painter to paint; etc. An engineer is paid to think and solve problems. I wish I could solve a problem once and then keep getting payed for that solution over and over.

      Oh wait, that's right, that's why everyone on /. bitches about the current patent system. I fail to see much difference and tend to agree that both system are broken in their own special ways.

    11. Re:Goin' Digital! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey! My wife has one of those in her bottom drawer. Always wondered why she never put it up and hung her coat on it.

    12. Re:Goin' Digital! by tzanger · · Score: 1

      Your argument seems baseless and has nothing to do with the text of the person you're attacking. Lucractius said that your artist daughter should work harder, perfect her craft and market the hell out of herself. How is this a "typical engineer's attitude towards art" ? That's a sane attitude to have in a world where anything can be made cheaper and faster elsewhere. Do you honestly believe that an artist has some magical income forever job? Most artists I know don't live very high.

    13. Re:Goin' Digital! by alexo · · Score: 1

      I was having a discussion with my daughter (an artist) the other day about protecting her work, and much of what we discussed applies to this technology--when you get right down to it, the moment you convert any product into a digital format, and expose it to the internet in any way, you lose a great deal of control of that creation, if not all.

      I had lots of discussions with my relatives (all medical doctors who saved many lives and/or improved the quality of life for many others) about their work. Interestingly, none of them was concerned about protecting their work or losing control of it.

    14. Re:Goin' Digital! by wolrahnaes · · Score: 1

      I predict that, one day, the king of "most downloaded" torrents will be a 3D printer file for a bong.

      Smoking directly from plastic is a bad idea for obvious reasons, so until we can 3D print glass or metal for the bowl and downstem a 3D printed bong would be incomplete. I know this bit was likely sort of a joke, but I had to say it.

      --
      I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
    15. Re:Goin' Digital! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, you're one of THOSE.

      I hope you die penniless in a gutter. Get a job.

    16. Re:Goin' Digital! by jafac · · Score: 1

      bong?

      You are unaware of your internet history, AND your stoners.

      PORN!!

      Probably these 3d models of porn actresses vaginas.

      Stoners can smoke pot out of an apple. Piece of paper. whatever.
      But piracy has always centered around porn, video games, high-dollar software, movies, music, gambling, and money.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    17. Re:Goin' Digital! by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      No, it will be the dildo and other sexual toys people want, but are too shy to purchase in person or over the internet.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    18. Re:Goin' Digital! by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 1

      Because people who smoke bongs are renowned the world over for making good choices. :)

      --
      If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
    19. Re:Goin' Digital! by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      I don't see why a bong would have to be torrented. Most who use them would be perfectly willing to share the design -- and that would include a significant number of people who have rolled their own. If I found a design I liked and was unable to distribute it, I'd make one, scan it back in (or hand-enter it), and distribute THAT. The analog hole is even bigger for physical objects than it is for audio files.

      Maybe your daughter should make her works of materials that are not easily copied, or where each piece would come out unique even if the dimensions are identical -- multi-dyed plastics, Damascus steel, marble, and such heterogeneous materials.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    20. Re:Goin' Digital! by cowscows · · Score: 1

      There are already machines that can 3D print out of various types of metal. I haven't heard of glass printers, but I'm sure they'll appear eventually.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

  10. Time to migrate to chip cards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I work for a large european payment service provider and I know the solution to this problem.
    Start using chip cards. Magstripe-only cards are insecure and susceptible to skimming.
    In my company we don't allow fallback to magstripe in ATMs and I also think this is the official policy of Visa and MasterCard.

    1. Re:Time to migrate to chip cards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course you know that the chipcard system also has serious vulnerabilities making it susceptible to man-in-the-middle attacks.
      It has to be dumbed down so it only supports secure authentication and not all those silly plaintext and pinless modes.
      Unbelievable that the system has been designed the way it is.

    2. Re:Time to migrate to chip cards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PIN-less mode in an ATM?

  11. Now I WOULD... by slider2800 · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...download a car. And print it!

    --
    return $sig;
    1. Re:Now I WOULD... by blackicye · · Score: 1

      ...download a car. And print it!

      Until someone who has economies of scale can print the same car at half of the cost of you printing your own.

    2. Re:Now I WOULD... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Print the money needed to buy the raw materials needed for printing the car!!!

    3. Re:Now I WOULD... by gshegosh · · Score: 1

      What I'd love is download a car, PHOTOSHOP it and THEN print it :-)

    4. Re:Now I WOULD... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about First we print the printer to print the money with?

      on second thought. a printer inside a printer...
      mother of god... // PRINTCEPTION //

    5. Re:Now I WOULD... by vlm · · Score: 1

      ...download a car. And print it!

      Until someone who has economies of scale can print the same car at half of the cost of you printing your own.

      Also time. I could print that car, but it would take a month of continuous printing to do it, and I really need to print up some disposable plates, cups, and spoons to eat lunch in a couple hours, so... Some things can't be done as sub assemblies, or require too much skill and talent to assemble, or there is just a fundamental gross bandwidth limit where I need to print 100 pounds of stuff per month to live and I've only got 150 pounds per month of printing bandwidth available so ...

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    6. Re:Now I WOULD... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Which is exactly how it works right now...
      You could start manufacturing a car right now from raw materials and all the information required to do so is readily available, the only reason people don't do this is because the time, effort and intermediate steps (ie with only raw materials you would first need to manufacture appropriate tools before you even start making vehicle components) that would be required to make a car, mean that the process of building your own car from scratch is not a viable action.

      A printer that can simplify the creation of some or all of those components and/or tools benefit the existing car companies as much as they do you. They would still have larger printers, bigger factories to operate them in, better supply chains to bring the raw materials etc.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    7. Re:Now I WOULD... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not necessarily.

      If I can download my car and print it, even though it may cost me more, I can be assured of several things, and make use of several things:

      Assured:
      1- Of the parts/base materials used; Mr Economy of scale (MEOS from this point on) may have decided to use a slightly cheaper plastic, or a plastic that breaks down in UV light over 10 years for the frame of the car because it is $5 cheaper/liter. If I print myself at $5/liter more I can rest assured that my frame will last longer. Similarly for once we get into the sintered/supplied components, motors, and FPGAs. MEOS will be inclined to take inferior (but good enough) materials because of the savings over hundreds of models, whereas the individual will be inclined to pay slightly more for increased durability.

      2- Of all updates being 'installed' in the base file before printing; MEOS is working on buying a lot of identical things in order to leverage superior buying power; if Printable car 1024X ver 10 is what MEOS is set up for, and Printable car 1024X ver 11 requires some radical departures in some of those components, then MEOS is going to keep printing Printable car 1024X ver 10 until its time to buy new stuff; if I print my car at home I'll grab the most recent version of Printable car 1024X THEN buy components, then print car.

      3- Of being able to print replacment parts. MEOS is currently cranking out Printable car 1024X ver 10; but next year it'll be Printable car 1024X ver 11 and next year Printable car 1024X ver 12; If the headlight housing breaks on my Printable car 1024X ver 10 MEOS may have no interest printing me JUST a new headlight housing; even if MEOS is willing to do that, MEOS will charge a rate well more then the home priting cost for that service because MEOS needs to make a profit and can't leverage market of scale on a single component for a single person- however if I have the file for Printable car 1024X ver 10 and still have my components I can print individual pieces at my leisure for less total cost.

      Make use:
      1- After I download Printable car 1024X ver 10; I might peruse the internet and see what mods people are making to Printable car 1024X ver 10- someone might have a high efficiency mod that costs you some power, but radically extends your drive time; not being an aggressive driver that would interest me. A more aggressive driver may favor mods that sacrifice efficiency for power, control and stability.

      2- If I am personally a gearhead, or an artist; I may look at the file for Printable car 1024X ver 10, and decide on some ascetic changes that personalize the car to my design desires; so that it is MY car rather then just 'another Printable car 1024X ver 10'

      3- Interoperability- If I already own a Printable minivan 53Y ver 5 and now want to get Printable car 1024X ver 10, I might swap out some common decay components with Printable minivan 53Y ver 5 (grab a mod that makes them both use the same oil/air filters for instance) so that I can leverage some economy of scale in my own vehicle maintenance (1 oil filter 10.53; 10 oil filters 9.50 each; and/or if I'm printing my own oil filters then 1L of oil filter components = 10.53, 10 liters of oil filter components = $95)

    8. Re:Now I WOULD... by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      My partner and I are currently working on a milling machine of high precision but low durability. The first job of this machine (aside from a few low-volume items for testing and cash flow purposes) will be to make more durable replacement parts for itself, then to make a complete second machine (though we would have to assemble it). It will be cheap, simple, and slow -- but slow is not a problem if you can use it to make more complex/durable but faster versions of itself.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    9. Re:Now I WOULD... by tinkerton · · Score: 1

      I've been toold that's what those little felons did. The police first printed a jail and put them inside. But the felons printed a file - well, not an iron file - and a getaway car and escaped.

  12. How dare the government? by matunos · · Score: 1

    How dare they constrain these hard-working job creators with their stifling government regulations!

  13. Ban 3D printers by zennyboy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Used for illegal purposes? BAN 3D PRINTERS. And cassette tapes. And knives!

    Z

    1. Re:Ban 3D printers by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      Why would government ban it, if it could just apply a tax and make a profit of illegal use?

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    2. Re:Ban 3D printers by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      Why would government ban it, if it could just apply a tax and make a profit of illegal use?
      It's not like this is hurting any of the big corporations, so there's no reason for government to stop it.

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    3. Re:Ban 3D printers by qxcv · · Score: 1

      It's not like this is hurting any of the big corporations, so there's no reason for government to stop it.

      It's hurting the people running the corporations, who are arguably more influential than the corporations themselves.

      --
      "The most dangerous enemy of a better solution is an existing codebase that is just good enough." -- Eric S. Raymond
    4. Re:Ban 3D printers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget cars!

      omg my first /. car analogy :)

    5. Re:Ban 3D printers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Won't someone think of the children!
      These should be banned so criminals can't print drugs or guns.
      The streets are already filled with criminals everywhere you look!

    6. Re:Ban 3D printers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would government ban it, if it could just apply a tax and make a profit of illegal use?
      It's not like this is hurting any of the big corporations, so there's no reason for government to stop it.

      Why is weed illegal then?

    7. Re:Ban 3D printers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, just copyright the look and feel of the ATMs and then send the RIAA/MPAA after them.

    8. Re:Ban 3D printers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget to include the first letter of your username again at the bottom of your post, in case we missed it at the top of your post. Whatever would we do without reading that letter twice?

      A

  14. And the answer is: by kurt555gs · · Score: 1

    Pay in Bitcoins!

    --
    * Carthago Delenda Est *
  15. Welcome to everyone else's life by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I don't get to retire from work after doing a few things particularly well. If I did, well I'd probably be retired. There's been a few projects that I've done a really great job getting done despite various things standing in the way and so on. However they don't go and shower millions of dollars on me and say "Go retire at 30!" No, I get paid to show up to work each day and I have to keep showing up, keep doing my job, if I want to keep getting paid.

    Same deal with people who produce physical goods to sell. If you build a house and sell it, you get whatever price you sold it for and that's it. You don't get further income from that house. When the owner resells it, you don't get a cut, if the value increases, they don't owe you further money. If you want to make more money, you have to continue to make more houses and sell them.

    So it makes sense to, as the constitution says " (secure) for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries." You can't expect them to work for free, they need to be able to make money on their efforts. The "Information should be completely free," crowd is living in a fantasy world. However they shouldn't be allowed to just ride on one thing forever. Like anyone else, they should have to keep working if they want to keep making money.

    Remember that our society relies on people continuing to work. If everyone worked only a little and then retired, well we'd be real fucked. We need things to keep getting done. That's why you need to work for a long time before you retire. There is no reason that creative types should be the one exception to the rule.

    1. Re:Welcome to everyone else's life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree for the most part. Here are some examples. . .

      Let's talk about authors.

      In reality, it takes work to market and keep an idea in popular demand.

      A large percentage of that work is done by the original creator through the act of further creation. If s/he want to keep selling copies of older material, s/he needs to keep making more new material of value, to keep his or her name at the top of the play list of popular attention.

      Stephen King is an apt example. Were he to stop being a regularly producing author, his works would fade into insignificance in about a decade. Many authors, now long forgotten, were as popular as Stephen King. He's yet to write anything of truly lasting value. However, he keeps showing up on the job, and so, the value of his early works is augmented by his day-to-day effort. He deserves a cut of all sales from his early works, because without his efforts today, they would have diminishing value. That seems fair to me. As you gain seniority, you get raises. (At least, that's how it worked once upon a time).

      Alternatively, some literary works are so amazing and so culturally significant, (Lord of the Rings, for instance), that they remain in regular circulation long after the author stopped work. However, it took 20 years of non-paid effort to create the Lord of the Rings; the start-up cost in terms of man-hours were enormous, and a complete gamble which might have ended in utter failure. That sort of investment risk needs to be figured in when deciding when an author should be cut out of the payout loop on a profitable item. Put another way. . , take the income earned from 20 years of being employed in a stable job, then multiply that by the risk factor, and if successful, you get a deservedly high payout. That's fair.

      There's really no free lunch when it comes to authors. In fact, it's the other way around. Authors, with the bare exception, are among the least-well compensated skilled workers out there. Most of them need second jobs. And while writing might seem like a fun pursuit, doing it well is usually fairly agonizing.

      Once the author is dead, however. . , it becomes a question of estate. Do you think your parent's wealth should pass to you?

      That's a question for another debate.

  16. CAD Design by skyma · · Score: 1

    Minimal technical detail is necessary to develop a working 3D CAD model; if all you have is a drawing on a napkin, we have worked with less! We can reverse engineer your part or prototype and develop an exact CAD model for production. (Including 2D to 3D from existing plans/drawings) [url=http://www.vulcanmold.com] injection molding [/url] Our CAD designers work with you throughout the design process to develop exactly the product you want. Current technology allows us to e-mail a viewable 3D model to you at various points in the design process so you know exactly the status and direction of your project. (Example) With lead times around 1-2 weeks for CAD work, we can get your project jump-started quickly and provide a quick turnaround. Being wholly based in the USA, Epsilon reduces the communication difficulties and time lags that often plague companies operating overseas.

  17. Personalizable products! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The "templates" you download will be parameterisable. Think sandals that actually fit, dolls with the child's family's faces, racquet handles designed for *your* hand. Bring it on!

  18. Not sure I would blame the banks here by Shivetya · · Score: 1

    I don't consider employing a 3d printer and a team of people to replicate the face of an ATM to be easy. These guys are putting considerable effort into stealing money. It really comes down to the consumer, do not use ATM's you don't normally use and if you do your best to obscure your entry of your PIN number. The thieves are getting both pieces which effectively circumvents about all the bank can do.

    Now there are things that could be done to make the consumer more informed, like having a service to send text messages to their phone or e-mail for each change in their account. Locking out ATM/CC usage outside of a specific zip code range without rearrangement. Certain screen technologies could be used on the ATM to restrict the viewing angle to head on and then implement a touch screen numeric keypad whose position on the screen is not constant from one use to the next.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  19. In Japan... by Ramin_HAL9001 · · Score: 1

    American banks haven't had any real competition, or had any necessity to improve their consumer-side businesses in over 10 years. In Japan, in every major city I have ever been in, ATM's are all touch-screens. I haven't yet seen any skimmers that are effective on touch screens, not that it would be impossible, just very difficult. At the three largest banks, customers who pay extra monthly fees get a thumb-print identification features that requires a thumb print in addition to a PIN code.

    That old stereotype about Japan doing everything America does but better seems to be true in this case.

  20. no news by Mr_Nitro · · Score: 1

    a man built a functional rifle using a CNC milling station. Please stop giving echo to these news, they are only harmful for the freedom and help none.

  21. Sweet! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    IN YOUR FACE, 3D printer haters! How you like this "trinket," bitches?

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    1. Re:Sweet! by Flipstylee · · Score: 1

      That'll be when the government steps in, when guns and ammunition are easily printed.

    2. Re:Sweet! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It's still a trinket. The value came from criminal activity. It's still just a piece of plastic. We've been making pieces of plastic since before WWII. If this is what it takes to give "value" to your delusional Play-Doh Barber Shop toy set, squeezing out plastic from a hot glue gun into a barely recognizable blob of junk, you're an even bigger moron than I thought. So, how much money did you give Bre Pettis for 10$ worth of old printer motors and a Dollar Store glue gun? You're so Stockholm Syndromed into your toy you can't even see it yourself.

      It's a piece of plastic. It's a PIECE. OF. PLASTIC. If this is really what gets you excited, which it seems to do, grow up.

    3. Re:Sweet! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      So, how much money did you give Bre Pettis for 10$ worth of old printer motors and a Dollar Store glue gun?

      If a 3D printer could be built for even 10 times that much money in parts, I'd have my own by now.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  22. Still better than Stripe by realxmp · · Score: 1

    I can clone a magstripe card with very cheap off the shelf hardware, and use that card whereever. Cloning a modern (using the updated security software) chip card though, especially one that has the original timing attacks fixed requires serious hardware. That was what chip cards were created to fix, the chip and PIN bit was more of a side-benefit.

    The original chip cards were vulnerable to cloning using offline terminals however, most of those particular attacks have been fixed through the shift from Static Data Authentication (SDA) to Dynamic (DDA). The attacks themselves are quite interesting and easy to understand. SDA cards (which are cheaper to manufacture) produced a crypto packet which could not be interpreted by the terminal. This caused a problem with offline terminals which were only periodically connected to the bank and were thus vulnerable to replay attacks. Fortunately though, DDA was made mandatory for all cards issued after 2011 so it shouldn't be a problem in future. (there's also a protocol called CDA which adds still further security)

    The other problem was that the part of the packet which distinguished chip and sig transactions from chip and pin ones was in a proprietary card issuer dependant format. This meant a chip and pin card could be fooled into falling back to signing a chip and signature request, by a device in the middle which was passed to the terminal as if it were a chip and pin request. The terminal unable to tell the difference, thought the correct pin was entered. It's unclear whether this is fixed yet as it would require a terminal software upgrade to read the IAD and use CDA to protect the IAD, alternatively it would require the issuer to detect a signature verified transaction at their end and decline if it were unexpected.

    Chip and signature mode can't be removed either. It is still necessary, as not everyone can use a pin, nor is it feasible to get pins under certain circumstances. Anyway you can find a summary of all these at cambridge's site.

  23. Magnetic strip? by sam0737 · · Score: 1

    Why ATM still relies on magnetic strip card...that the data (key) could be easily replicated?

    We have smart card for years, NFC card for years...Couldn't the bank phase out all those magnetic card with NFC one?
    I presume sniffing the NFC air traffic does not compromise the system, of course.

  24. still an unfilled, erm, niche... by Thud457 · · Score: 1

    Damn lazy nerds, what is wrong with you?!!!

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  25. Like patents.... by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 1

    The only thing novel in this article is (blah, blah, blah) with 3-d printers!

  26. cognitive dissonance much? by Thud457 · · Score: 1

    yeah, by your logic, white people who steal .

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  27. the internet is made for porn! by Thud457 · · Score: 1

    ... that CAMERAS can actually be used to take pictures of naked people?[1]

    Could you provide evidence of this wild claim?

    [1] the Internet

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  28. We need to think ahead!!! by jafac · · Score: 1

    The obvious next move to pre-empt the inevitable stupidity that's going to arise, is for someone to print up a batch of politicians, and pass a constitutional amendment making it illegal for the government to ban 3d printers.

    --

    These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
  29. Another way to steal with a 3d printer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is to rob a bank with a (partly) plastic AR-15:

    http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:11669

  30. whom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The case of the pronoun in the subclause is determined by the role the noun plays in the subclause. It would be fine if four men, whom the federal court indicted, had reinvested their profits. However, the federal court indicted four men who reinvested their profits.

    (This would not ordinarily be a noteworthy mistake, but anyone using "whom" in the first place is likely interested in using correct grammar.)

  31. I wonder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could I print a couple surface to air missiles? These low flying planes are getting quite annoying. Maybe a small nuke to take care of my neighbors dog that barks at all hours of the night.

    Also how long until I can print a clone of myself? Once I figure out how to print the above items I want a body double.

  32. Printing Skimmers, Security, etc. by Transaction7 · · Score: 1

    I had a client who, before she got busted, had a good color copier that I couldn't have afforded and assume she stole. She wold print up duplicates of stolen checks and had a group of people fan out and pass them. I had another famous con man client earlier one of whose scams was selling memberships in the Mafia; nobody ever complained and I always wondered what happened the first time one of those marks tried to use that in Chicago. What I don't understand is how you can print a scanner as distinguished from running in ours ahead of the real one. How does this work? Don't they have to be connected to something? I guess all the real experts on SD know but I don't. None of my computer geek buddies will even teach me to hack into the local university and change grades or issue degrees, or into the big banks, the IRS, or the White House. Where on SD or some other site can I get the instructions for this so I can make a little tax-free cash on the side?

  33. Have we lost the train? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why is it still possible to skim cards? Don't they have chips now? How can they skim that?