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Verizon Challenges FCC's Net Neutrality Rules

GovTechGuy writes "Verizon filed an appeal on Friday asking a federal court to strike down the FCC's net neutrality rules, which are scheduled to take effect on November 20. A federal judge tossed the FCC's previous attempt at enforcing net neutrality against Comcast last May, and more legal challenges are expected in the coming days."

179 comments

  1. Evit Cartel Opportunity by mikepost · · Score: 2

    I think that all of the net neutrality challengers should get together and head over to http://www.privateislandsonline.com/oceania.htm, where they could buy a volcanic island. Perfect for the super villain that has everything except an evil lair!

    Once set up, /. readers could petition the local government to allow multi-tiered internet provision and drop all evil enterprises to the bottom of the list, throttling them back to dial up speeds! Mwha, mwha, mwha!!!

    1. Re:Evit Cartel Opportunity by Twinbee · · Score: 2

      Sites like that seem slightly surreal, almost on the level of "buy your own planet" from the HHGTG or something.

      --
      Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
  2. Seems reasonable by paiute · · Score: 1

    Verizon asserts that it is committed to an open internet. Verizon believes the Federal Communications Commission has no business regulating communications. Verizon reports that the turd floating in the punchbowl is a Baby Ruth bar.

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    If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    1. Re:Seems reasonable by Runaway1956 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They ALL assert that they are committed to net neutrality. The problem is, they want to define what neutrality is. When you've cut away all the verbiage, to get to the heart of the matter, the telcos only want their monopoly to remain unchallenged, so that they can continue to rape the consumers. To them, "neutrality" means "anything goes, as long as WE approve of it, and it increases profits".

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    2. Re:Seems reasonable by captainpanic · · Score: 2

      Umm... you just described any average company. They all want to maximize profits.
      Companies have a commitment to their shareholders/investors to maximize profit... if they don't do that, the investors would be stupid to invest.

      We've defeated the old communists so that this system can dominate the world. Don't complain now.

    3. Re:Seems reasonable by Charliemopps · · Score: 0

      While I support net neutrality and appose the telcos efforts, I have to correct you here. This isn't about increasing profits, it's about mitigating new costs for them. Nearly every new innovative device out there connects to your home network and streams 1080p (or some other high bandwidth content) from the source provider, often without warning the consumer at all. The result is an increasing number of the ISPs customers using 80%+ of their bandwidth for nearly all of prime time and often 24/7.

      New companies see the consumers broadband connection as a free resource to exploit. The ISPs would like these companies to share in the burden they are placing on their networks. Not just because it costs the ISPs money, but because with the system as it is, these new companies have no reason to put any effort into conserving the bandwidth they use. Why bother with compression? Time of day? Who cares!

      Again, I don't support the ISPs efforts, but at least understand their point of view.

    4. Re:Seems reasonable by Runaway1956 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nope. Capitalism was never meant to give industry ownership of everything. Fact is, a lot of that infrastructure, over which the telcos have been given a monopoly, has been paid for by the taxpayers. We paid for a lot of it with taxes, and we're forced to pay again through all the various fees.

      Don't get me wrong - yes, I agree that the corporations have an obligation to maximize profits for their shareholders. That's fine. But - politicians, judges, and regulators like the FCC have an even greater obligation to represent taxpayers, voters, consumers, and/or citizens. And, those politicians have basically sold out to the corporations under discussion.

      Balance is what I'm looking for here. Yeah, we owe the corporations a profit, if they are going to be responsible for running things. But, they owe it to US, to give us what we want, in exchange for those profits. Ever heard, "The customer is always right"? Hey - there's not one sleazy sumbitch on Wall Street that believes that anymore. They look at us as a farmer looks at cattle. We're an asset to be exploited, nothing more, and nothing less. They owe us nothing - not even the service they promise, and most certainly not good service!

      What is your internet speed? First, the advertised speed, then your real speed? The telcos are infamous for over subscribing, then throttling. Hey - if I'm paying for 56k, I WANT my 56k. If I'm paying for 56MB, then I WANT my 56MB. And, if I happen to be filthy rich, and I'm paying for 56GB, then, by god, I WANT MY 56GB download speed! And, it's none of the telco's business how I might be using all of that bandwidth - I paid for it, it is mine.

      The telco is most certainly NOT the enforcement arm of RIAA, MPAA, or any other alphabet agency.

      Let's just say that I'm very unhappy with the way things are going in this country, and that I support those protestors who are "occupying Wall Street" this morning. I just wish they would get their act together, and tell both Wall Street and Washington what is wrong, and that it's time to fix it.

      Communism? Nope. Under communist rule, corporations lose, but so do the citizens. Take another look at what I'm bitching about - as well as those protesters.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    5. Re:Seems reasonable by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      As I see it, net neutrality doesn't preclude some throttling. In my house, we have a router, with Tomato installed, using Toastman's QOS rules. I can understand, and support, the very same throttling at the ISP level.

      But, what I see is, the big telcos aren't interested in fair sharing, so much as they are interested in maximizing profits. How 'bout those SMS messages? They can be, and often are, more expensive than an entire data plan. Why? It's been shown many times that those messages use an insignificant percentage of actual bandwidth. Why do they cost so much? Only because the telcos can get away with it, and most consumers are gullible.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    6. Re:Seems reasonable by Whalou · · Score: 1
      From TFA:

      We believe this assertion of authority is inconsistent with the statute and will create uncertainty for the communications industry, innovators, investors and consumers.

      Once again the consumers come in last.

      --
      English is not this .sig mother tongue...
    7. Re:Seems reasonable by said213 · · Score: 0

      "Yeah, we owe the corporations a profit..."

      You don't owe any corporation a god damned thing.

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      help me fix this "Terrible" karma, please!
    8. Re:Seems reasonable by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      ... and telcos are an oligopoly, all agreeing to do the same thing so you don't have a choice.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    9. Re:Seems reasonable by captainpanic · · Score: 2

      Don't get me wrong - yes, I agree that the corporations have an obligation to maximize profits for their shareholders. That's fine. But - politicians, judges, and regulators like the FCC have an even greater obligation to represent taxpayers, voters, consumers, and/or citizens. And, those politicians have basically sold out to the corporations under discussion.

      So, don't complain about the companies. Instead, complain about the politicians, judges and regulators who sold out to them.

      Companies just do their part of the deal: to get as much money as possible for as little effort as possible... and get away with it without losing customers.
      Customers should switch to another company if the current internet provider seems a bad deal.
      Governments should make sure you have a choice - that there is competition rather than a cartel where all companies basically offer the same product at the same price.

      It seems to me that the companies do their job: they're earning money.
      It seems to me that you're doing your job too: you're an angry customer and you want change. Me too, btw.
      It seems to me however that there is no choice, and that means that some regulators are screwing up and letting the companies get away with being a cartel or a monopoly, and getting away with throttling.

      Capitalism is a fine system, but it is my belief that it requires some regulation... and that's been lacking for a while now.

    10. Re:Seems reasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. If the 'Telcos' want to be fair and actually compete, then the TELCO On-Demand Movie Services should ALSO count against any Bandwidth caps.

      What the TELCOS are dong is to capping the band-width to COMPETING service providers, but make their own in-house services immune to the cap.

      Telcos, IMHO, should be prohibited (or forced to spin off) their movie-rental and ISP businesses -- they should not be allowed to monopolize the movie-rental business because they own the last mile of copper/fiber.

    11. Re:Seems reasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see congressional term limits as a necessity here. Politicians are motivated to represent the people until they reach Washington, where they quickly realize that power comes from corporate connections. If they knew this wasn't a career, but rather just a few years of public service then maybe they'd stick to their guns.

    12. Re:Seems reasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, at least 'consumers' make the list. Customers and citizens don't even get *mentioned* anymore.

    13. Re:Seems reasonable by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      And the corporations, see, they're all... corporationy.

      Edited for verbosity.

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      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    14. Re:Seems reasonable by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Umm... you just described any average company. They all want to maximize profits.

      That doesn't necessarily make it right.

    15. Re:Seems reasonable by ultranova · · Score: 1

      New companies see the consumers broadband connection as a free resource to exploit. The ISPs would like these companies to share in the burden they are placing on their networks.

      See, the thing is... I already paid for that broadband connection. So, it really is free for me to exploit to my heart's content, since it's mine. And if the ISPs sold something they don't have, they don't get to ask more money when they're unable to deliver - they should face charges instead.

      Again, I don't support the ISPs efforts, but at least understand their point of view.

      Oh, sure, it's not hard to understand at all: they want to charge you and other people over and over again for the same connection.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    16. Re:Seems reasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The content providers pay their ISP for bandwidth to upload the movie. Home users pay their ISP for bandwidth to download the movie.

      What's unfair about that? This is an honest, non-rhetorical question.

      Each side is paying... but one of those providers is saying they should be able to double bill.

    17. Re:Seems reasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I call BS to this. The customer should be able to use up to 100% of his bandwidth 24/7, after all, HE PAID UP for it! ISPs have been lucky so far that historically the ratio of "purchased bandwidth" to "actually used bandwidth" has been high, allowing them to subscribe more customers that the system supports in paper. Now the shell game is over. All that surplus profit should have been reinvested in part to increase bandwith and keep the system going, instead they pocketed it like in a Ponzi scheme.
      In a perfectly capitalistic system, people would leave those ISPs who do not deliver the promised bandwidth for another, better managed one, even if the price is a little higher (we are assuming people value performance here). The lack of choice is one of the problems here. FCC should start breaking up companies like in the original AT&T time

    18. Re:Seems reasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are right, I want Ma Bell back.

    19. Re:Seems reasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless you are a naive moron, yes. I don't want one single jackass torrenting 24 hours sharing my connection and bringing my bandwidth down to nothing. We are both paying customers, why should I be punished becasue of someone else's behavior?I am all for throttling the top 2% of people using 50% of the bandwidth. There is no need for that nonsense.

    20. Re:Seems reasonable by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      Right but my ISP sold me a 6Mbps connection, they never said there was cap and they never said there would be restrictions during prime time. If they can't deliver the performance their customers want and the prices they charge, they need to raise prices. There is a reason after all business class 10Mbps Ethernet hand off will run minimally $300 per month in the least expensive US markets. That is what it costs. If consumers want something better then best effort, where best effort is not very good at all, they are going to have pay. I have not problem with that!

      I think the real issues consumers don't know what there are buying. Dick and Melissa don't know what QOS is, they mostly don't get latency or jitter concepts, they don't understand net neutrality at all, They kinda get caps, and they sorta understand bandwidth but only to the degree that more is better.

      I think the solution is simple. Internet access should mean exactly that! If someone wants to sell something called Internet access, it should mean there is No filtering, No Fire walling (at the ISP level), defined QOS classes, where the ISP will accept tags coming from customer equipment. No preferential handling outside of the customers QOS tagging to any destination. No caps, No throttling, and the ISP should be required to be able to deliver at least 80% of bandwidth to the outside world worst case.

      That way some people can market Internet access, and say things like your devices, VOIP, games, Netflix, etc will just work. Everyone else would have to offer online Services or Web gateway or whatever they'd like to call it; but that way Dick and Mellisa can choose real Internet access without having to know what questions to ask or needing to understand to much underlying technology.

      It may well be that your local cable operator chooses not even offer Internet access in residential areas under these rules, you might only be able to get Online Services from them, so what! You can still pay for that T-carrier, or Ethernet hand off if you really want or need it. My guess enough consumers will want access to the *real* internet badly enough the corporations will find away to deliver it cheaply enough that they have some customers.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    21. Re:Seems reasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing's perfect.

      And to be fair, the "old communists" did considerably worse for the people.

    22. Re:Seems reasonable by SomePgmr · · Score: 1

      Umm... you just described any average company. They all want to maximize profits.

      Not entirely true. Many companies want to increase marketshare and revenue while growing the company, and keep profits at (or near) zero. Profits can be losses where the magic tax drain kicks in. Think of it like your personal income tax. Declaring equal losses and gains works to your advantage if those losses are actually non-monetary gains.

      But anyways, in theory, a company doesn't just have to worry about shareholders, they have to worry about stakeholders. The idea is, when BP vents a trillion gallons of oil into the gulf, it seriously impacts the company. Conversely, when Starbucks institutes programs to better communities surrounding their locations, it's supposed to work out well for them in the end. Public image, happier employees, more patronage, acceptance for new locations, etc.

      How well these theories play out in practice varies, obviously. But they still drill it into you in business school... believe it or not.

    23. Re:Seems reasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I agree... nothing in 'net neutrality' says ISPs can't cap your connection or throttle it. All it says is that traffic should be treated equally.

      I use a lot of bandwidth (250-400gb/mo). I pay for a business connection. It costs 5x the price of a residential connection of the same speed, and I signed a 3 year contract (the cancellation fee is 85% of the amount left on the contract.. so it really is 3 years). In exchange, they won't throttle my connection, and they won't cut my off in the middle of the month without any warning. (As a bonus, I also get nearly 2x the speed I paid for).

    24. Re:Seems reasonable by radaghast · · Score: 1

      The thing about price setting is that it is only very loosely related to the cost of production. SMS messages are a rather extreme example of this. They exist is abundance precisely because they cost almost no money for the carrier to produce, and consumers are willing to pay relatively a lot of money for them. I do not understand how it came to be that consumers are willing to pay so much, but it is that way.

      I guess what I mean is that it is absolutely a moral thing for them to set the price how they wish, and if people are willing to pay such high prices then it just means they have a really good product on their hands.

      Reverse the situation. If a text message cost $1 to produce and no consumer was willing to purchase a message for more than $0.50, then they simply would not exist. It is not the carriers responsibility to take a loss on his product in order to force its existence.

    25. Re:Seems reasonable by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps there is a reasonable compromise somewhere between letting telco monopolies completely control all the content on the Internet, and standing in line for my weekly soap and milk ration?

    26. Re:Seems reasonable by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      Capitalism was never meant to give industry ownership of everything.

      Yeah, it kinda was. It was designed so that consolidation would happen.

      Yeah, we owe the corporations a profit

      The fuck we do. We don't owe them shit. They owe us for their continued existence.

      And if you think that even for a second, then you must agree that they owe us jobs, and therefore should not be able to fire anyone at will.

    27. Re:Seems reasonable by s73v3r · · Score: 2

      So, don't complain about the companies.

      So, don't complain about the entity that is actually doing this shit?

      Fuck that, they are completely responsible for their actions. If they aren't, then they shouldn't have any rights whatsoever, and should be regulated up the ass.

      Companies just do their part of the deal: to get as much money as possible for as little effort as possible... and get away with it without losing customers.

      This is NOT a good thing. Not for consumers, and definitely not for employees. And this is NOT an excuse for the behavior they've been exhibiting.

      Customers should switch to another company if the current internet provider seems a bad deal.

      Hey, that sounds awesome! I'll just look up at what ISPs are in my part of Orange County, CA. Looks like there's Cox, whom I have already, and .... Cox.

    28. Re:Seems reasonable by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      The ISP sold me a pipe with a rated upload and download speed. Therefore, I should be able to use at least 80% of that speed at any given time, for as long as I want. Anything less, and they have deceived me.

    29. Re:Seems reasonable by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      I can understand, and support, the very same throttling at the ISP level.

      I can't. That is them saying they should have more control over MY traffic than I do. If I want to prioritize shit, I'll get Tomato and do it my own damn self.

    30. Re:Seems reasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More people need to look into the business class options in their areas. I have a business class Comcast connection that ended up costing LESS than the residential internet-only connection. It's also twice as fast. I have 12Mbps down and 6Mbps up. I don't get throttled, I talk to people who actually know something, and it's more reliable than the residential service. It's amazing how the two different business units of Comcast operate so differently. I HATED residential service, but I really like the business class connection.

    31. Re:Seems reasonable by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      You know, if they actually delivered what they sold you, then you wouldn't have to worry about that.

    32. Re:Seems reasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A rational company wants to optimize profit, not maximize it. There are few rational companies and most of them aren't suffering from the current recession.

    33. Re:Seems reasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This *is* very much about increasing profits. All cable companies are also media companies and each have their own streaming or video-on-demand services, which are either suffering badly or not getting any traction due to Netflix and Hulu and whatnot. It is pretty clear, when all their ads talk is how you can watch this video now instead of 30 days later on Netflix (while forgetting to mention that is the result of a dick move by them in collusion with their partner media companies).

      So yes, there is precedent. Faced with a company that can afford to run the same service at a cheaper price (Netflix does pay for their bandwidth and datacenter bandwidth is not cheap), the only move the Verizons and Time Warners of the world did was to figure out a way to force them to delay their movie releases 30 days, just so they can maintain their profits on video-on-demand. Since that's not working, I have no doubt that next they will attempt to lower the quality of Netflix' streams and perhaps just make the experience unbearable.

    34. Re:Seems reasonable by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Actually - some limited throttling makes sense, out there in the infrastructure. Not so much for the purpose of limiting stuff, but for the purpose of prioritizing important stuff.

      Some things really ARE more important than finishing a 4 gig movie download 3 minutes sooner. I mean, you'll get your movie. The difference between finishing the download at 12:15 or 12:18 means nothing, really. But, even if/when the ISP isn't over subscribed, it makes sense that interactive stuff gets priority. VoIP is useless unless it has a priority over bulk transfers. Gaming is impossible, without a higher priority than torrents. There really ARE reasonable prioritization schemes, that don't involve ripping people off for bandwidth that you can't supply.

      Have you ever looked at Toastman's QOS rules? An ISP that doesn't do ANY QOS scheduling is actually irresponsible, and I think that Toastman gets it right.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    35. Re:Seems reasonable by Ltap · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Sort of like the situation of employee drug testing, the "well, work for/buy from someone else" excuse simply does not work if they all do it. If it is something so pervasive that it takes over every possible company you could switch to, you are left with very few options. It's simply a "go away, I don't want to deal with it" answer -- one which misses the point that regardless of everything, it simply should not be done.

      --
      Yet Another Tech Blog
      (but so much more, including game and movie reviews)
      http://yanteb.peasantoid.org
    36. Re:Seems reasonable by Reverand+Dave · · Score: 1

      Bullshit, even with term limits it would just be a mad power and money grab until the final bell rang. The only want to stop this disaster is to take the money out of politics. With out the money the incentive for power hungry individuals would cease to be there and it would remove the incentive for the representatives to rule against the best interests of their constituency in favor of a corporate oligarchy and the general established aristocracy.

      --
      I got here through a series of tubes
    37. Re:Seems reasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, not everyone here is "technology-literate"

    38. Re:Seems reasonable by cfalcon · · Score: 1

      Funny what actually happens is if Bittorrent is open for mere SECONDS, my WoW connection shoots to at LEAST 1.8 seconds of latency. 1.8 SECONDS. A good latency is 50ms, and normal is around 150ms.

      Obviously, I can't torrent while in game- it is unplayable. Why is that? Is it because my torrents have a lower priority, which I would be fine with? No, it's because the moment that I get a torrent going, it flags me as some third rate customer, and my whole connection chokes up like an asthmatic in Pollution Pollen December Land. Suddenly, I'm communicating through a straw. So I have this connection, which looks and tests fine, but the moment I attempt to use it for ACTUAL DATA, it goes to shit.

      I have Qwest (currently renaming themselves to something else) and Comcast (currently renaming themselves to Xfinity). BOTH DO THIS SAME THING

    39. Re:Seems reasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't get me wrong - yes, I agree that the corporations have an obligation to maximize profits for their shareholders. That's fine. But - politicians, judges, and regulators like the FCC have an even greater obligation to represent taxpayers, voters, consumers, and/or citizens. And, those politicians have basically sold out to the corporations under discussion.

      So, don't complain about the companies. Instead, complain about the politicians, judges and regulators who sold out to them.

      Companies just do their part of the deal: to get as much money as possible for as little effort as possible... and get away with it without losing customers.
      Customers should switch to another company if the current internet provider seems a bad deal.
      Governments should make sure you have a choice - that there is competition rather than a cartel where all companies basically offer the same product at the same price.

      It seems to me that the companies do their job: they're earning money.
      It seems to me that you're doing your job too: you're an angry customer and you want change. Me too, btw.
      It seems to me however that there is no choice, and that means that some regulators are screwing up and letting the companies get away with being a cartel or a monopoly, and getting away with throttling.

      Capitalism is a fine system, but it is my belief that it requires some regulation... and that's been lacking for a while now.

      Saying we should blame the politicians who sold out and not the companies who bought them is like saying we should only charge the hitman for murder, and not the person who hired him. Corporations have an ethical obligation to be a good social citizen along with their obligation to their shareholders.

    40. Re:Seems reasonable by Runaway1956 · · Score: 2

      It's the outbound queues. Your torrent client floods your own router with outbound packets, and your game packets can't get out. As I mentioned above, I use Toastman's QOS rules, which are rather - complicated I guess is the right term.

      I can be gaming, and all three of my sons can start a torrent, or any other kind of download, but they don't affect me. In effect, I've cut the top 5% of my own bandwidth, then the QOS rules put everything into classes. ANYTHING that exceeds 512k is put into "bulk", and the outgoing packets are severely throttled to ensure that interactive stuff isn't impaired. The router doesn't care what protocol is being used, it doesn't care that other priorities might have put that larger transfer into a higher class - the instant anything asks for transfers larger than 512 k, it gets booted into "bulk".

      It gets complicated, and you simply can't set the rules up on a stock router from any of the manufacturers. (well, not on a "consumer" class router, anyway)

      Take a look here, if you have the time: http://www.linksysinfo.org/index.php?threads/using-qos-tutorial-and-discussion.28349/
      Or, if you don't have the time, maybe you can bookmark it for future reference.

      I can almost assure you that your ISP isn't doing that to you - it's happening right there, inside your own network! (I say, "almost" - there do seem to be some credible accounts of ISP's doing what you say!)

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    41. Re:Seems reasonable by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Nope. Capitalism was never meant to give industry ownership of everything.

      The problem is drawing the line between what is private property and what should be controlled by the government. Most of the politicoes try to avoid answering that question, because it sheds a clear light on the issue and exposes the hypocrisy of their political pandering.

      If the infrastructure requires the power of eminent domain to implement, it should forever and always remain the property of the government.

      Remember that Supreme Court decision that allowed cities to use eminent domain to take poor people's property, and then sell it to a mall developer? This simple statement fixes that problem.

      How about California's deregulation of power? Electric companies not wanting to put up power lines, because you don't charge for lines. You charge for kilowatts. The government should own and maintain the lines, and then tax the providers to use them (tax the providers, who wrap the taxes up into charges to the consumer, 'cause it is easier).

      The monopoly cable company got you down? They'll act different if the city owns the line's they're using. TW could be given a set of frequencies on the coax. Verizon would get another band. You would sign up with whichever plays more reasonable with you.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    42. Re:Seems reasonable by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      There is no line between private property and government. All of the citizens own all of the resource of the society they are a part of. Under capitalism they allow 'control' of some of those resource to individuals upon the basis that the privatised 'control' will benefit that society.

      Where that control no longer benefits that society, that society ie the majority of the citizens strip control of those resources that have been abused.

      You are a citizen of the whole of your country not just the parts the rich allow you, that is a lie the rich promote. Obviously that privatised control has been and is being abused and rather than being a benefit to society it is a gross and excessive abuse.

      Excessive pollution, the blatant waste of resource, the harm and suffering of fellow citizens, deaths on a large scale, the abuse of justice and democracy and corruption of the laws that govern behaviour of individuals and groups of individuals, are all sign of privatisation out of control.

      We set the rules, want better behaviour that set more and tighter regulations over the privatised control of elements of 'our' socio economic structures. Corporations 'own' SFA, they just control what we allow them to control and when they fail in control, we should logically and sanely strip that control away.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    43. Re:Seems reasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing about price setting is that it is only very loosely related to the cost of production.

      The more competitive and open a market is, the more price correlates with cost. When price and cost are unrelated, like with SMS, then it's a sign the market probably isn't competitive.

    44. Re:Seems reasonable by radaghast · · Score: 1

      I agree that an abundance of competition will drive the price towards cost as compared to a lack of competition. But there is no reason to believe that the competitive price will necessarily closely approach the cost. There is as much competition for text messages as there is for laundry detergent where I come from. Unless there is some sort of collusion between the telecom companies, then I don't think competition is what causes the disparity.

      The loose relation that I speak of is only that the price/unit will never dive below the cost/unit. Not without a subsidy anyway.

    45. Re:Seems reasonable by sjames · · Score: 1

      Al Capone was "just a businessman".

    46. Re:Seems reasonable by sjames · · Score: 1

      So, don't complain about the companies. Instead, complain about the politicians, judges and regulators who sold out to them.

      If you steal then you're a crook, even if a dirty sheriff looks the other way for you. I'll complain about both of them, thank you.

      The corporation's job is to earn money ethically. We're all bound by ethics even if we deny it.

      Agreed that regulation is required.

    47. Re:Seems reasonable by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Verizon FiOS is actually quite good at giving you what you pay for. My 20/5 gets 20/5, and I have never had something throttled or delayed. So not sure why they are fighting net neutrality, they already do it.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    48. Re:Seems reasonable by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      SMS is a bad example. The way SMS works makes it a scarce resource. On the Cell tower, there are a limited number of command channels vs data channels, command channels are used for connection maintenance, call setup, and SMS, while data channels are used for voice, and on older protocols, data. What happens when SMS is abused, is that the tower becomes unusable for phones to make calls, their primary purpose. SMS is therefore priced at a point where people can use it, but that they do not abuse it generally.

      Verizon (the subject of this article) actually does pretty good QoS, and rarely ever throttle. I have actually crashed my internet router from bittorrent, and not lagged out online games whatsoever (until the router crashed at least...) I also, always get my bandwidth, even when I am downloading with bittorrent. But this could be because I am on FiOS, which is kind of a premium fiber connection, and the backend has more speed to match the load.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  3. If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by GeneralTurgidson · · Score: 1

    Who can?

    1. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one it's, it's industy regulated and working just fine. The FCC has lost this battle once already and with any luck this time this law will be tossed out.

    2. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by khallow · · Score: 1

      A: The customer.

      Now it may be the FCC under competent leadership could enforce net neutrality.

    3. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Beyond_GoodandEvil · · Score: 2

      Whomever Congress legislates and gets the Supreme Court to agree with, can.

      --
      I laughed at the weak who considered themselves good because they lacked claws.
    4. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one until congress gives them the authority.

    5. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How?

      Faith in the free market, such as yours, has lead the world to a point where large corporations are able to influence laws and policies through generous contributions. You don't think really think that the consumerhas any real power any more, do you? About all we can influence is the fate of small business. Does the phrase "too big to fail" sound familiar?

    6. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Richard_at_work · · Score: 0

      Why should anyone be able to?

    7. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by erroneus · · Score: 2

      The customer is limited by design. It's either play by their [ever changing] rules in order to engage with society and business or don't play at all.

      These people are operating vital utilities. They require regulation. It is every bit as simple as that. When the internet was "novel" it was one thing, but now it is as important as the telephone network and will be more important than the telephone network in a short while.

      History has shown the telcos required regulation after the DoJ and the courts system found them to be abusive beyond their ability to self-regulate. Only the medium is different.

    8. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by SlippyToad · · Score: 1

      it's industy regulated and working just fine

      Yes, the henhouses are perfectly safe with the foxes standing guard outside.

      Moron.

      --
      One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
    9. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by dkleinsc · · Score: 2

      Who can?

      The usual song-and-dance from these folks is that the market will regulate it, because those customers who are unhappy with non-neutral service will go to another vendor. There are two major problems with this argument:
      1. If there are only a few vendors, and new vendors can't get into the market (which they basically can't due to network effects, economies of scale, relationships with phone manufacturers, etc), then the various vendors can all provide non-neutral service and the customers have nowhere to go for neutral service. They don't have to engage in any kind of illegal communication about it, either: They can just do it, let the other guys discover they're doing it, and wait for them to follow suit. It's the same process that caused all the different US airlines to start charging for luggage within very short order, even though customers hate it.

      2. Customers typically don't know that their connections are being throttled. It's sort of like how lemons get sold off to people who don't know what they're buying (technical term here is information asymmetry). If they don't know about it, they can't make buying decisions based on it.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    10. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right. The Congress hasn't explicitly granted the FCC the authority to make rules regarding network neutrality, so it isn't authorized to make those rules. Verizon will win this case.

    11. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      The henhouses are fine. I do however fear for the hens' lives.

    12. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      In which case the FCC will recategorize the ISPs in a way that makes it clearly within their powers. It's personally surprising that they didn't just do it in the first place.

    13. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Because they use the public right of way and are heavily subsidised by government dollars? Or the fact that they've set themselves up as an anti-competitive cartel preventing prices from dropping and quality from increasing. Around here the speeds haven't gotten any better in a decade while the price is still quite expensive.

    14. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by khallow · · Score: 2
      Boycotting is effective. For example, in most of North America you have a couple of satellite based competitors. Most places have both a DSL and cable-based ISP. And you can always resort to landlines.

      Does the phrase "too big to fail" sound familiar?

      If you buy their services and make no attempt to correct policies you don't like, then you implicitly approve of their policies. This sort of helplessness isn't interesting to me because it indicates a complaint without a serious attempt to fix the problem, ie, a whiner.

    15. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      Any proof for anything you have claimed?

    16. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by khallow · · Score: 0

      It's either play by their [ever changing] rules in order to engage with society and business or don't play at all.

      No, you always have the option to play by someone else's rules. As I mentioned elsewhere, boycotts do work.

    17. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by alen · · Score: 1

      speak for yourself

      in civilization in the last 4 years we went form 256kbps mobile speeds to 20-50mbps speeds depending on carrier. and i get a lot more minutes than i did just 8 years ago

    18. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Consumer choice & competition seems to be playing out quite nicely in the tablet market (as it does in a lot of markets). Have you seen any news as to the pricing of some of the new tablets coming out, and hear the news that HTC is dropping the price of theirs $200.00, all because of competition.

      Give the government free reign to own any market, you have the largest power in the world controlling everything. That's scares me a lot more than corporations having some power, and as a consumer, having a choice.

      This industry doesn't have a lot of choice, but it's better than government controlled anything (anything!).

    19. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by PKI+Champion · · Score: 0

      This is another ploy by unelected officials at the FCC to start regulating the internet. Plain and simple. We all know that once something like that is allowed to start, it snowballs all on its own. Just look at the "little" EPA and how it has grown up. The EPA has its hands in everything now.

      The internet is not a place for U.S. government regulation. It's not a place for state regulation. It's a place for market regulation. If you don't like your internet provider, then switch providers. If you don't have any choice, take that up with your local/state government. If they cannot help you, the USPS is looking for more customers for its postal mail service....add some old media subscriptions and get a pen pal.

    20. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Calydor · · Score: 3, Informative

      Where I live, I can use landline DSL that's too far from the DSLAM so I'm capped at 384/384 on a perfect day, often less.

      Or I can pay through the nose for a 7.2 mbps mobile connection with a 5GB cap that throttles to 40 kbps after the cap is reached, effectively making any modern website time out.

      Considering that nothing seems to get cached anymore, ie. Youtube videos, videos on newspaper and TV websites etc. those 5 GB are spent awfully fast through normal surfing and gaming.

      Those are my options. Short of paying for a company to come out and lay fiberoptic cables all the way to the nearest large city I'm screwed. Tell me again how I have options to play by other rules?

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    21. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by erroneus · · Score: 1

      What you are 'expecting' is unreasonable. A select few people [read: consumers] will vote with their dollars and such, but the vast majority of people are literally too busy or too stupid to understand what is going on. You might have thoughts that "they deserve what they get" except that what THEY get WE also get and it doesn't matter how we vote with our dollars in the slightest. THIS is how and why big industry screws the masses and precisely why regulation is needed.

      Puppies and kittens are defenseless against big giant boots trampling on them. Does that then mean they deserve to be trampled?

    22. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Well, that would be Congress (assuming that even Congress has the Constitutional authority to do so). The FCC only has the authority that Congress has given it in the form of laws that Congress passed. In the Comcast case, the judge ruled that there were no laws that gave the FCC the authority to make the regulations it was basing its fine of Comcast on. At the time, the judge asked the FCC what the statutory basis was for their regulations and they failed to give him an answer. That means that they made the rules without looking at the laws to see if they had the authority to make those rules. Considering the behavior of several other Obama Administration departments in exceeding their statutory authority (not that this is necessarily unique to this Administration, just that it is more high profile in this Administration--other Administrations that routinely exceeded their statutory authority didn't generally issue press releases saying they were doing so) it seems that there is a significant chance that this is more of the same.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    23. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by shentino · · Score: 1

      Going without internet is easy...until you find that you need it.

      Internet service, with its tie-ins to keeping contact and getting jobs and doing business with the government, is fast becoming a utility as indispensable as water and electricity are not.

    24. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by shentino · · Score: 1

      Boycotts only work against monopolies when you'd rather suffer going without than put up with the monopoly.

      This is why water barons in the wild west get so rich. You either cough up the dough or you die thirsty.

    25. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by shentino · · Score: 1

      The government in theory needs to allow the market to work by preventing monopolies.

      However, two problems prevent this in practice:

      One, corporations are big bruisers with beefy legal departments and they HAVE and WILL AGAIN sue the crap out of anyone that tries to force them to compete. For this I cite TDS vs. Monticello, a renowned case where a city begged for municipal fiber and got turned down, but then they got sued by TDS and got an injunction slapped against them. TDS built the network out under their feet while their hands had been cuffed by the court, and by the time the city won the lawsuit TDS was already entrenched and had the city froze out.

      Two, politicians are renowned for their corruptibility. I think there was a case somehwere where the state legislature got pushed into making municipally provided internet illegal. That and the FCC has a big bad corrupt congress making sure it doesn't piss off special interests. If the FCC tries to do its job the way it's supposed to the politicians will intervene and pull its fangs off.

      Politicians in government have veto power over regulatory actions, and corporations with an iron grip on the media they need to get elected make sure the only tune the politicians dance is theirs.

    26. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You also pay more. How about comparing your bill to the same service in other civilized parts of the world like Europe, South Korea, Japan, heck add in China too while you're at it.

      Look at how you get your phone, how you're tied into devices in a single carrier and can't change willy-nilly. Look at call costs, SMS costs, data costs etc.

    27. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

      How?

      Perhaps like this!
      I don't know what these guys actually stand for but I know they are definitely standing up. and their numbers are growing.

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    28. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by khallow · · Score: 1

      What monopoly? The vast majority of the North American ISP market has three or more providers.

    29. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Jawnn · · Score: 1

      Precisely. The mythical "invisible hand" makes a fundamental assumption; that "the marketplace" is populated by informed consumers. In practice this is seldom, if ever, the case. Even something as simple as buying small quantities of fresh produce, for example, demonstrates why "the marketplace" can not sort itself out. At first blush, it seems like a simple decision - buy the apples from Vendor A because Vendor B's apples have worm holes in them, but if Vendor A has used a half-dozen cancer-causing pesticides to rid his crop of unsightly pests, you won't know it. Internet technology is, by many orders of magnitude, a more complex "purchase". To suggest that such a purchase, in a marketplace that already presents a natural monopoly, demonstrates a complete failure to grasp both technology and commerce.

    30. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by khallow · · Score: 1

      You might have thoughts that "they deserve what they get" except that what THEY get WE also get and it doesn't matter how we vote with our dollars in the slightest.

      I bet you haven't even tried.

      Puppies and kittens are defenseless against big giant boots trampling on them. Does that then mean they deserve to be trampled?

      So you're now appealing to my tender, jack-booted side? Sure, I'm willing to rule the US with a modestly iron fist (and adequate compensation, of course), but maybe that's not the appropriate solution here?

    31. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by khallow · · Score: 0

      Where I live, I can use landline DSL that's too far from the DSLAM so I'm capped at 384/384 on a perfect day, often less.

      Or I can pay through the nose for a 7.2 mbps mobile connection with a 5GB cap that throttles to 40 kbps after the cap is reached, effectively making any modern website time out.

      Doesn't sound like you have a problem here. You have a DSL, probably at least two mobile providers, probably at least two satellite providers, and you're not complaining about anything that would be affected by net neutrality law or regulation.

    32. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Actually, the burden of proof here is on you to prove that the FCC can't regulate the ISPs.

      As for the subsidies the system was designed by the US government in the beginning and it still gets subsidized by tax dollars. Here's one example. http://wireless.fcc.gov/outreach/index.htm?job=funding

    33. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Those speeds aren't typical. Also, if you're talking about carrier, you're talking about cell phones and those are heavily capped, I think that T-Mobile and Sprint are the only ones left that don't cap and T-Mobile throttles it back significantly after 5gb.

      For household internet connections with a more generous cap, I have a hard time believing that the kinds of speeds your citing are common in the US.

    34. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by webheaded · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Stop using this argument. Now. This argument is fucking stupid (excuse my cursing but this irritates me). You apparently live in a different reality than the rest of us. Let's not even address the fact that most people have a choice between dial up or one provider (hell I'm not even sure I can get DSL and I live near one of the biggest cities in the country...Phoenix) and just look at the plain and simple fact that a choice between DSL or Cable internet is not a choice. This has been discussed so many times here it is ridiculous and I see this same dumb ass line parroted over and over again and it infuriates me. They have GOVERNMENT MANDATED MONOPOLIES. By DEFINITION you do not have a choice. It's a FUCKING MONOPOLY.

      The free market works well in MOST situations but not every single one. For starters, this type of industry is nearly impossible to enter into unless you have billions of dollars to invest or you have government help. Guess what all the telcos had? Both (hah) but they got government help. You know what that means? That means WE own those lines. The telcos don't get to decide what we get to do with the lines that we paid for. This isn't the free market...sometimes you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

      Seriously though, why do people keep saying this? Is it this libertarian movement thing where people think that every single thing can be decided by the market? I really feel as if people that say this are honestly not even thinking about what they're saying and just repeating something they saw someone else say. I have to be honest...I'm definitely starting to see this a lot here. I feel strange not being a zealot to some cause sometimes...like is it that hard for some of you people to stand back and think harder on these situations? Are you so completely bound to your idealism that it like...warps reality? Some of the shit I see people say on here is honestly just brain dead. Really. They don't think about what they're saying or consider actual situations so much as they have a knee jerk reaction that suits whatever mantra they hold. It's irritating and quite frankly makes for shitty discussion. I mean there is a difference between my having a different opinion on a matter and someone just like...I don't know...not even paying attention to facts? It's like watching politicians debate. We get mad at them for this kind of retarded shit and then do it ourselves. Do you really think this or were you trying to score some free karma?

      --
      "Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - BenF
    35. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by khallow · · Score: 1

      Stop using this argument. Now. This argument is fucking stupid (excuse my cursing but this irritates me). You apparently live in a different reality than the rest of us. Let's not even address the fact that most people have a choice between dial up or one provider (hell I'm not even sure I can get DSL and I live near one of the biggest cities in the country...Phoenix) and just look at the plain and simple fact that a choice between DSL or Cable internet is not a choice. This has been discussed so many times here it is ridiculous and I see this same dumb ass line parroted over and over again and it infuriates me. They have GOVERNMENT MANDATED MONOPOLIES. By DEFINITION you do not have a choice. It's a FUCKING MONOPOLY.

      Except, of course, it's not a monopoly when you have multiple providers. By definition. You also ignore cell phone modems, satellite, and even dial up (I assume your "dial up" is DSL). There's a lot of competitors out there. You just have to look for them first.

    36. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by webheaded · · Score: 2

      No. Some people have dial up that is not DSL. Do you think the entire country has access to multiple broadband providers because you do? Do you think that even if they DO have access to the 2 providers (whoop dee doo) that they aren't both doing the same thing? Do you know why they are both doing the same thing? Because they can. That's a duopoly and that's what most places have. There is no competition because the companies know that if they do the same shit, people will pretty much even out between the both of them.

      Let's say all the customers in Phoenix have a choice between Century Link DSL and Cox Cable (because that is in fact the case). Now if you leave Cox, where do you go? Century Link. If you leave Century Link where do you go? Cox. If they're both throttling, limiting bandwidth, blocking Hulu to make you buy cable from them, etc...what exactly do you do? Can a smaller competitor come swoop in and funnel away all their customers? Nope. Monopoly on the phone and cable lines. Is this scenario common? Yup. We aren't talking hypotheticals really...all the cable and DSL companies do the exact same things to varying degrees (it is even worse in Canada). Some (like Cox) are generally more benevolent (they don't really enforce their bandwidth caps...which is great)...but for now. Realistically, they have absolutely no reason whatsoever to continue doing this and in fact in other areas, Cox Cable are actually a bunch of bastards. We're just lucky that in the Phoenix Metro area, they're nice guys. Century Link (formerly Qwest)...no they're bastards. Or at least they have been before.

      Now remove the cable or DSL provider from the scenario. You're looking at a fairly large portion of the country. What do these people do? They can't even leave one company to go to another because there isn't one. Yeah, maybe they have Comcast available but guess what? They're too far away from the phone company for DSL. Yeah sure they can get dial up internet but they can't get DSL. Great. What happens when Comcast (or say...Time Warner) institutes a 50gb bandwidth cap per month. Oh I'm sorry, did you want to watch Netflix and download games on Steam? Sorry you're going to need to pay overage charges on that. What are you going to do about it? Is that a free market? Is either of these scenarios really a free market? Is this not really just the illusion of a choice? Just because you get to pick which company is screwing you doesn't mean you actually have good choices and that's why this isn't a free market. The companies are large, embedded, and have been given monopolies on their lines. No one can compete with them BY LAW. If you are REALLY lucky you get to choose between DSL and Cable but there is nothing stopping them from doing the same thing. You start introducing 3 or even 4 companies and doing the same thing gets a lot harder.

      Same with the cell phone market. Why do you think AT&T wants to buy T-Mobile? Because they're getting flak for being assholes while T-Mobile is generally just a good company. They don't try and hide things from their customers or try to screw them. What they're doing is right out in the open and they try to be as fair as possible. Do they limit bandwidth? Yes but instead of charging you overages, they knock your speed down to give you a chance to still use the service and not get raped with fees. That seems legitimately like they're trying to keep you from raping their networks rather than trying to make extra money on overages. They lower your monthly bill if you buy your cell phone outright or if you live out your contract terms and continue service with them after the contract has expired. What was AT&T planning to do after they bought T-Mobile? Raise rates. Fuck people. Look up the memo that got leaked from AT&T. This is what happens when you eliminate competition. The less players you have, the more the players left can abuse you. If the only big games in town are Verizon or AT&T, guess what's going to happen? Fuck you, that's what.

      --
      "Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - BenF
    37. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's already happened and they don't as the courts have already stated.

    38. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Toonol · · Score: 1

      Faith in the free market, such as yours, has lead the world to a point where large corporations are able to influence laws and policies through generous contributions.

      That's the fault of a government that holds the reign of industry. If they couldn't make or break companies depending on the regulation they passed, they wouldn't be a target for bribes. If we give them MORE regulatory capacity, they will act in a MORE corrupt manner.

    39. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      "Considering that nothing seems to get cached anymore"

      Caching screws up their usage counters, and thus ad-money.

    40. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Toonol · · Score: 1

      Actually, the burden of proof here is on you to prove that the FCC can't regulate the ISPs.

      That's very backwards. The default assumption (thank God) is that they don't have the power to regulate unless they've specifically been given that power.

    41. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      The problem is the FCC is not authorized by congress to do this, the FCC also wants to censor cable and satellite transmissions but can't legally. There are two things going on here the teleco's are abusing their market power to kill competition and the FCC is using this as a reason to grab power. Laws need to be written to open up competition and stop the abuse. The FCC can't and shouldn't be able to create it's own laws and enforce them.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    42. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 2

      Keep thinking that. I live in the heart of Silicon Valley. Granted, it's probably the cheapest place within a 5 mile radius, but it is the fucking center of Silicon Valley. No cable, too far from the DSLAM to get anything more than 1.5 Mbit down. And that's after ATT fixed their noise problem that had me throttled to half that. Yes, I could move to a more expensive place. I don't want to. I can afford it, but I don't see the point. The Internet is now a utility like water and electricity. If corporations can't be arsed to provide it in one of the densest places in the US, right where it turned from a University project into the keystone of the US economy, they need to be regulated until they do. I know that makes me a dirty commie, but American society will be better off in the long run if the telecom infrastructure is regulated until the Telcoms cry Uncle.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    43. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      Even assuming that wireless bandwidth magically expands to accommodate every American using it, a 5GB per month cap is pretty much nothing. I go through that for work in about a week. Less if I have to do some installs or backups. And satellite is only an option for consuming content very slowly. And you still need at least dial-up to issue requests.

      So no, there is no competition in the Internet connection space.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    44. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      (I assume your "dial up" is DSL).

      I'm surprised no one has beaten you to death with a router for uttering something so moronic.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    45. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Doesn't Comcast serve most of silicon valley? Maybe they arent allowed to run lines to your home by the local government?

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    46. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by idiotnot · · Score: 1

      They can't just arbitrarily do that. If they try, the courts have remedies. "Yes, Mister Vice President, I realize we were advised not to do this, but, like, the President told us to, now we have to pay billions to Verizon, AT&T, and Time-Warner. You told us to do this."
      "Really."
      "Yep. I'm just glad that @$$ judge didn't hold us in contempt."
      "We would have come and bailed you out."

    47. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How likely do you think it is that a significant amount of people will boycott with me (oh, wait, then I wouldn't have an internet connection at all!)? I'm thinking it's close to zero considering how few people care. As long as they have Youtube and Facebook and such, I'm sure they don't care about bittorrent (or less popular protocols, websites, etc).

    48. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      lol. Maybe in fairy land.

    49. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by jahudabudy · · Score: 1

      You live in an area so remote that you dont even have a cable company. This isnt a failure of the market

      That depends - is broadband internet a necessary utility for a middle-class lifestyle? I would argue yes. In which case, it is a classic example of market failure - failure to provide a necessary service to a population b/c it is unprofitable to do so. Replace Internet with electricity (yeah, I know, not exactly the same thing, but still) and you get the situation we had 50-60 years ago which led to regulation of that industry.

      --
      ...sometimes, in order to hurt someone very badly, you have to tell that person terrible lies. - PA
    50. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by compro01 · · Score: 1

      1. Satellite? Seriously? Have you ever looked at what satellite ISPs offer? Expensive, slower, high latency, and with capping and throttling worse than any terestrial ISP.

      2. Yes, and both DSL and cable ISPs operate on near-identical capping and throttling polices.

      3. Dial up? Have you used dial up in the past decade? I used dial up until 4 years ago. It is not an acceptable option.

      We are making an attempt to correct policies we don't like via regulation, but apparently that is not an acceptable course of action for a market ideologue.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    51. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by khallow · · Score: 1

      No. Some people have dial up that is not DSL. Do you think the entire country has access to multiple broadband providers because you do?

      That's pretty funny. I don't have access to DSL, but I naturally gathered you didn't understand what DSL was. It's still not clear to me whether you have DSL or not.

      As to your question about what do the small number of people who don't happen to be on DSL or cable, even if they can't get cell phone, they probably can get satellite.

    52. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by khallow · · Score: 1

      failure to provide a necessary service to a population b/c it is unprofitable to do so.

      It's not their responsibility to provide you with a "necessity". It's not government's responsibility to force them to provide you with an unprofitable service. Instead, it is your responsibility to get what you think you need and pay appropriately for it.

    53. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by khallow · · Score: 1

      Spend more for a plan that doesn't have a 5Gb cap. It's not magic.

    54. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by jahudabudy · · Score: 2

      Except that we as a society have decided exactly that: it is a function of government to regulate certain vital markets in order to compensate for those markets' failures to distribute resources to all citizens. You can argue that Internet shouldn't be considered vital enough to deserve that protection. I suppose you can argue that YOU don't think government should force "them" to provide everyone with electricity, but it seems most people disagree with that. Within a certain framework that we as a society agreed to, government's responsibility is whatever we as a society decide it is. And if that framework chafes too much, we as a society can agree to change that, too. Any company (or citizen) that doesn't want to play by the rules set by society is welcome to not play.

      --
      ...sometimes, in order to hurt someone very badly, you have to tell that person terrible lies. - PA
    55. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by khallow · · Score: 0

      Except that we as a society have decided exactly that: it is a function of government to regulate certain vital markets in order to compensate for those markets' failures to distribute resources to all citizens.

      And we've paid the price every time we try that foolishness. My view is that society is not here to subsidize your life style.

      You can argue that Internet shouldn't be considered vital enough to deserve that protection.

      And I will.

      I suppose you can argue that YOU don't think government should force "them" to provide everyone with electricity, but it seems most people disagree with that.

      Ditto. Also, you seem to be confusing your viewpoint with "most peoples'" viewpoint. My suspicion is that most people don't see the internet as a necessity.

      Within a certain framework that we as a society agreed to, government's responsibility is whatever we as a society decide it is. And if that framework chafes too much, we as a society can agree to change that, too. Any company (or citizen) that doesn't want to play by the rules set by society is welcome to not play.

      Too bad society doesn't see how that harms society. It's all "sticking it to the Man". Also, in the US, you have the little obstacle of the US Constitution to deal with. It prevents a lot of abuses not just to people you like, but also people you don't like.

    56. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes! Just spend more! The free market will fix everything! All you have to do is spend more. That sounds like an extremely viable method for a lot of people.

    57. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by jahudabudy · · Score: 1

      My suspicion is that most people don't see the internet as a necessity.

      I didn't mean most people view the internet as a necessity, I meant most people agree that it is proper for government to force utility companies to provide electricity to everyone, even if certain areas are unprofitable. Or so it appears to me - I've not conducted thorough surveys on public opinion. But it's pretty rare to hear someone suggest otherwise.

      Also, in the US, you have the little obstacle of the US Constitution to deal with.

      Yeah, that's the framework I mentioned. If we want to (as a society) we can change the Constitution. We've done so in ways that fundamentally altered how our government works, on occasion. I'm not suggesting it is always a good idea, I'm just saying that the "proper role of government" is not a universal law. The morality of using government to force small groups of private citizens to interact with the rest of society in a manner the rest of society deems proper is a fuzzy place. Most people agree I shouldn't be allowed to go out and take anything I want, most people agree society shouldn't be allowed to take everything I own and leave me starving on the streets. But defining the appropriate middle ground is pretty tricky.

      --
      ...sometimes, in order to hurt someone very badly, you have to tell that person terrible lies. - PA
    58. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      In theory, yes they do. In practice, there are small segments of land where for some reason, Comcast doesn't go. My suspicion is that since they're mostly low-income housings, Comcast doesn't think it will recoup the investment of digging up the sidewalk to run the cable.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    59. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by khallow · · Score: 1

      All you have to do is spend more. That sounds like an extremely viable method for a lot of people.

      I know you're being sarcastic, but yes, that's the point of markets. The people who want something pay for it. If you can't have everything you want, then make sacrifices. It's quite simple.

    60. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      Oh, right, you meant competition in the way that a Ferrari competes with Yugo. Sorry. I was under the mistaken assumption you actually had the slightest idea what you're talking about. Once you actually learn to compare apples to apples when talking about competition, we will continue this conversation.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    61. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by khallow · · Score: 1

      Oh, right, you meant competition in the way that a Ferrari competes with Yugo. Sorry. I was under the mistaken assumption you actually had the slightest idea what you're talking about. Once you actually learn to compare apples to apples when talking about competition, we will continue this conversation.

      I never was under the impression you knew what you were talking about. Here, we have an apples to apples comparison - access to the internet. And you whine because the plan you choose to consider caps your internet consumption. Further, you only have internet difficulties because you choose to live too far from civilization.

      Obviously, you chose to whine about it rather than accept that your choices have restricted your choices. Not my problem. Either pay more for what you want, or pay less and get less.

    62. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      Here, we have an apples to apples comparison - access to the internet.

      Of course, just like all things with 4 wheels,an engine and at least one seat are cars, competing in the same exact market for the same exact dollars.

      And you whine because the plan you choose to consider caps your internet consumption.

      And now you a) further extend the market by not requiring an engine and b) assume I'm only interested in consumption. All of which are wrong, and some more wrong than others.

      Further, you only have internet difficulties because you choose to live too far from civilization.

      Yes, Silicon Valley is really far away from civilization.

      Obviously, you chose to whine about it rather than accept that your choices have restricted your choices

      When in doubt, persist. I think your shovel should be hitting molten rock by now. Do you always look at go-karts when you're shopping for a family sedan?

      Either pay more for what you want, or pay less and get less.

      I'd love to. Except I can't, because either the products you mentioned come with drawbacks that disqualify them from consideration - and I'm talking features, not price - or they do not exist where I live.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    63. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by khallow · · Score: 1

      Of course, just like all things with 4 wheels,an engine and at least one seat are cars, competing in the same exact market for the same exact dollars.

      I tire of your nonsense. I simply don't understand why you can't grant the obvious, that a comparison can be and was made here. These are all means to access the internet. They have have costs and capabilities. And you have desires which these fill to varying degrees.

      Yes, Silicon Valley is really far away from civilization.

      If you really live in Silicon Valley, then you have the option of getting a direct connection to the internet, bypassing the broadband ISPs altogether. But it costs money which you have to spend.

      All I hear here is that you want really fast bandwidth, but you aren't willing to pay for it. Not sure what that has to do with net neutrality. I guess it's just an opportunity to vent.

    64. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      All I hear here is that you want really fast bandwidth, but you aren't willing to pay for it.

      Wow, I think we have a record for complete lack of reading comprehension. Is this one of those cases where evidence that contradicts someone's world view actually ends up reinforcing it?

      I can pay for really fast bandwidth, but no one is offering to sell me really fast bandwidth that doesn't come with restrictions that turn really fast bandwidth into barely dial-up. It also has nothing to do with net neutrality, and all with a complete lack of competition. Which is why ATT can get away with providing my complex with a complete ass-tastic Internet connection which cannot support anything resembling modern speeds.

      As for the rest...

      If you really live in Silicon Valley, then you have the option of getting a direct connection to the internet, bypassing the broadband ISPs altogether.

      Yes, of course, I could live in a server room. Or I could pay to have Level 3 lay fiber to my apartment, and then turn my living room into a data center.

      These are all means to access the internet. They have have costs and capabilities. And you have desires which these fill to varying degrees.

      You're either a really patient troll, or just blind and deaf.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    65. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      So you admit that you do not know the reason why you do not have a cable provider, but still insist on blaming the cable companies.

      Here is an idea: Get off your ass and find out why, instead of forming opinions about things that you are knowingly ignorant about. I mean for christ sakes.. you KNOW that you dont know! ..whats this, faith-based blaming? Your behavior is dumber than a Christian, because at least they know its faith.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    66. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Calydor · · Score: 2

      I tried, actually. The reply was that there ARE no bigger plans than the 5 GB one. Try again to be condescending, please.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    67. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Calydor · · Score: 2

      Being two miles from the nearest town is too far from civilization now? Sure, I live two miles to the wrong side, towards the coast, but come on, it's not like you drive for hours through Nothing to get here. Can make a round trip to the nearest McD's in under half an hour on a busy day.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    68. Re:If the FCC can't enforce net neutrality... by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps reading the site might give you some insight into what they stand for?

      Occupy Wall Street is leaderless resistance movement with people of many colors, genders and political persuasions. The one thing we all have in common is that We Are The 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%. We are using the revolutionary Arab Spring tactic to achieve our ends and encourage the use of nonviolence to maximize the safety of all participants.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  4. WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought Verizon worked with Google to get these rules in place in the first place. WTF?

  5. The comments on that site... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 0

    ... they scare me.

    A mixture of ignorance, paranoia and just plain hate.

    They start off with "The OBAMINATION Dictatorship is planning to squelch the Civil War that will come next Summer by starting to CENSOR FREE SPEECH on the Internet!" And then somehow get worse.

    1. Re:The comments on that site... by Trubadidudei · · Score: 0

      It's almost suspiciously stupid. I wonder if the tea party or any other critical mass of stupid has some indian employees typing out that guff on sites like that.

    2. Re:The comments on that site... by ideonexus · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      You have to understand that Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, and the 24hour corporate spin machine has told them that NN is all about limiting what you can say on the internet. They liken it to the Fairness Doctrine, the now-dead bill that once required broadcasters to give equal time to liberal and conservative viewpoints and, ironically. the same law Limbaugh used to get on the air, a law that once made sense when there was a scarcity of broadcasting outlets.

      Net Neutrality works the other way. We now have limitless outlets for expressing our views on the Internet, but corporations need scarcity in order to make money. So they seek to throttle the bandwidth, creating an artificial scarcity on their product and drive its value up. Without Net Neutrality, corporations have the right to discriminate against speech they don't like or companies they are in competition with. It's the exact opposite of Free Speech, but the conservative media have convinced their followers that black is white and that this bill is double-plus bad for Free Speech.

      Without Net Neutrality, the Internet risks falling into a communications war, bad for all Americans and bad for the Corporations who are arguing against it. I don't understand how the same ideology that argues so strongly for Free Trade around the world has taken such a strong stance against the same exact principle for the Internet.

      --
      i ~ Celebrating Science, Cyberspace, Speculation
    3. Re:The comments on that site... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      I'd just blame it on their pathological hate of any form of regulation. I'm sure a few of them would abolish the police and just give everyone guns for self-defence if they could.

    4. Re:The comments on that site... by Antisyzygy · · Score: 2

      Well, since it was ruled in court that police have no obligation to protect you, only to investigate crimes, you basically are better off with a gun.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    5. Re:The comments on that site... by rocket+rancher · · Score: 1

      The internet is an amazing tool, but I think it needs discipline and will to use it efficiently; under the current net neutrality paradigm, it can achieve neither, so its potential can't be realized. I think a tiered internet means a controllable internet, one that would be more useful (and profitable) than the media chaos that reigns there now. Absent attribution and consequences, the internet is an obstacle to control, in much the same way equal access and fairness doctrines impeded the usefulness of broadcast mass media in the last century, or easy and cheap access to printed mass media impeded the usefulness of newspapers and magazines in the century prior to that one. We've had a few centuries since the invention of the printing press to understand the ramifications of mass media on the population -- I think it would be irrational in the extreme to not apply that understanding to the internet.

       

    6. Re:The comments on that site... by rocket+rancher · · Score: 1

      I'd just blame it on their pathological hate of any form of regulation. I'm sure a few of them would abolish the police and just give everyone guns for self-defence if they could.

      please...would that it were so. An armed society is a *polite* society.

    7. Re:The comments on that site... by Twanfox · · Score: 1

      How did that Wild West society work out? There were a lot of guns out there, too, weren't there?

    8. Re:The comments on that site... by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      You have to enforce politeness at gunpoint in the US?

    9. Re:The comments on that site... by GodInHell · · Score: 1

      please...would that it were so. An armed society is a *polite* society.

      So THAT'S why all those gangbangers are so nice to each other all the time. . . oh wait. Nevermind.

      -GiH

  6. On their own, if they must by tchdab1 · · Score: 1

    Let them filter and throttle their private network, but if so connection to the public one is prohibited.

    1. Re:On their own, if they must by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      What "public one"? The vast majority of the internet is private networks and backbones - not government owned, not public owned, private networks.

    2. Re:On their own, if they must by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not government owner, but government paid, with our tax dollars. I don't care who, on paper, owns the networks. We paid for them to be installed/upgraded/maintained. Don't you dare tell me they have a right to mess with my (legal) use of the network, which I happen to pay for as well.

    3. Re:On their own, if they must by erroneus · · Score: 2

      You have a horrible misunderstanding of the public internet.

      They participate with the public internet, and in exchange for that participation, they get to charge people to access it. Charging people for access is all they should be allowed to do. Instead, they want to throttle, re-route, re-direct, inspect, block and all manner of things which is contradiction to their participation in the public internet.

      But let's look at it this way.

      There is no public telephone system either. There is a public telephone network. How pissed would you be to find that when you want to call your bank or your grocery store that your call quality was intentionally decreased or that your calls were blocked or redirected to the competitors of the parties you wanted to call? It's all the same damned thing. How you fail to see it amazes me.

    4. Re:On their own, if they must by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...Don't you dare tell me they have a right to mess with my (legal)...

      And there's where you mess up. By requiring that your/my/their usage be legal you open yourself up to censorship, control, regulation, and oppression.

    5. Re:On their own, if they must by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      No, I don't have a "horrible misunderstanding" at all - its (pretty much) all private infrastructure, which various people pay to access and carry their traffic over through voluntary agreements.

      There is no "public internet", there is merely the "internet" which is nothing more than a lot of people connecting their networks together - and you are suggesting that one network should not be able to connect to another network purely because of the management of the network...

      I don't "fail to see" anything, I just don't share your opinion of it.

    6. Re:On their own, if they must by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      Ok so you claim the cable company is a private entity with their own private network. Why the hell aren't they paying me for having their equipment on my property and why then as a private property owner am I legally prevented from going out and renting a ditch witch and digging up all of their equipment on my property and selling it as scrap since obviously they have abandoned it. They seem to get an awful lot of government granted benefits, but unlike the power or gas company they are not a regulated monopoly. Those companies also have equipment on my property that is legally protected but they have various government regulations. If the various ISPs want to be treated as private networks then we should revoke their right of ways and force them to negotiate a lease with every land owner who's land their lines cross and they also can't have any equipment on public land. Then it really would be a private network and they could go do what ever they wanted.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    7. Re:On their own, if they must by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Why the hell aren't they paying me for having their equipment on my property and why then as a private property owner am I legally prevented from going out and renting a ditch witch and digging up all of their equipment on my property and selling it as scrap since obviously they have abandoned it.

      Because your local government decided that these companies could do these things.

      They seem to get an awful lot of government granted benefits, but unlike the power or gas company they are not a regulated monopoly.

      They are regulated locally, by either utility commissions and/or town/city/state representatives. Probably its both.

      Dont ask the federal government to fix your locally fucked up shit with federal laws that apply to people outside of the influence of your locally fucked up shit. The problem is your locally fucked up shit and the solution is fixing it locally.

      Get involved in your local government and stop looking to the federal government to micro-manage your local situation.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    8. Re:On their own, if they must by erroneus · · Score: 1

      The public internet goes over public infrastructure which is granted right-of-way by the representatives of "we the people." There is no private infrastructure -- only the infrastructure they are LEASED.

      Please provide an example of infrastructure they own where it does not require using government guaranteed and protected resources including wires, cables, fibers or radio frequencies?

    9. Re:On their own, if they must by rocket+rancher · · Score: 1

      You have a horrible misunderstanding of the public internet.

      They participate with the public internet, and in exchange for that participation, they get to charge people to access it. Charging people for access is all they should be allowed to do. Instead, they want to throttle, re-route, re-direct, inspect, block and all manner of things which is contradiction to their participation in the public internet.

      But let's look at it this way.

      There is no public telephone system either. There is a public telephone network. How pissed would you be to find that when you want to call your bank or your grocery store that your call quality was intentionally decreased or that your calls were blocked or redirected to the competitors of the parties you wanted to call? It's all the same damned thing. How you fail to see it amazes me.

      Dude, you have a horrible misunderstanding of reality. On a tiered internet, and none of the dire things you outline can ever happen. In fact, it becomes in the best interest of the service providers on a tiered internet to not let any of that happen. How you fail to see this is because you believe governments and corporations exist to benefit you, the citizen or consumer. I can assure you that you are living in cloud cuckoo land, if you are that ignorant of economic and political reality.

    10. Re:On their own, if they must by erroneus · · Score: 1

      Two questions for you then:

      1. Do you believe the restrictions and limitations placed on the Telcos are appropriate? I speak of the ones where they can't route people through poor quality channels when they don't like one or both parties, where they can't block connections to parties they don't like and so on.

      2. Assuming you support these limitations on Telcos, why do you support the opposite for "data telcos"? And assuming you don't support limitations on Telcos, why do you think they should be allowed to go back to what they once were?

    11. Re:On their own, if they must by rocket+rancher · · Score: 1

      I don't know about your area, dude, but the the cable and telphone infrastructure (along with the roads, sewer, and airport facilities) in my location were bought and paid for by the tax payers via construction bonds and tax write-offs for the cable and telcos. They lease the lines from we the people. Those lines belong to the community; selling them off as scrap would be just as criminal as scrapping a fire station or police station and selling the bits to a junkyard.

      Your naivete would be stunning if it wasn't so depressing.

    12. Re:On their own, if they must by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Get involved in your local government and stop looking to the federal government to micro-manage your local situation.

      Uh, does it really make sense to govern the internet at the local municipality level?

      Should I be able to petition the local government so that google.com resolves to Fred's Search Engine in Stillwater, PA - population 202? And, then what if the big national telco that runs the lines just tells the mayor of Stillwater that they'll simply cut off their connection? To a company like verizon ANY municipality is expendable if it furthers their interests. We can applaud that when it means keeping DNS consistent, but what happens when the mayor of Stillwater tells them to provide content-neutral access to the internet and they're told to take a hike? Does Stillwater (population 202) have to run their own fiber backbone to the internet now despite having paid for Verizon to run one years ago?

    13. Re:On their own, if they must by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoosh!

    14. Re:On their own, if they must by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, I don't have a "horrible misunderstanding" at all - its (pretty much) all private infrastructure, which various people pay to access and carry their traffic over through voluntary agreements.

      There is no "public internet", there is merely the "internet" which is nothing more than a lot of people connecting their networks together - and you are suggesting that one network should not be able to connect to another network purely because of the management of the network...

      So, the internet is about as public as the public telephone (as in not public at all, when you look at the pieces) but you still see it differently. For some reason. But not only is it the same thing, in fact, your calls go over the same internet linked backbone, whether you use voip or not. My guess is your lack of concern is back to the previously-mentioned lack of understanding, or lack of empathy because you haven't personally run into a problem *yet* (or perhaps didn't recognize the source of the problem). I personally, can vouch that getting traffic throttled or my traffic being re-directed, is very annoying and I would say, should be illegal.

      Honestly, I think the only reason not to care about net neutrality is a lack of understanding of what it means to you personally. Hmm, or you just don't believe it will happen - and there *is* a good chance if you ignore it, things will work out like you hope. Unless you don't use the internet, but you did post on slashdot. People are lazy, and since it could currently go either way, companies are currently careful to avoid triggering a big backlash (say charging a premium for access to social sites). Though the companies are working hard to get rid of unlimited connections by phasing it in with (what are today) really high limits.

    15. Re:On their own, if they must by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Uh, does it really make sense to govern the internet at the local municipality level?

      We arent talking about governing the internet. We are talking about governing access to the internet, which is inherently local.

      Next time, think it through.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    16. Re:On their own, if they must by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      So, what's the difference?

      You did write what I posted about DNS servers and such, right? Can your local ISP run a proxy on port 53 and redirect half the internet at will? Can they go ahead and redirect by IPs to while they're at it? Can the only telco in town block Google if they don't pay a monthly fee?

    17. Re:On their own, if they must by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      You did write what I posted about DNS servers and such, right?

      No, I didnt write what you posted about DNS servers. I'm going to take a guess tho, and presume that you wrote it.

      Can your local ISP run a proxy on port 53 and redirect half the internet at will?

      There is more than one local ISP where I am.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    18. Re:On their own, if they must by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Odd, not sure what happened to that post...

      In any case, regulation is less necessary where there is genuine competition - say 5+ companies to choose from. Right now, many areas have one, and two isn't much better.

  7. Glass Half Empty by Jawnn · · Score: 2

    The courts (pretty much all of them) don't understand the issue and will get it wrong, handing the carriers a huge gift and the public an ass-reaming like they have never had.

  8. he can enact the same QoS throttling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you dipstick.

  9. The FCC can just take back their access rights by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And all that taxpayer funded copper and fiber.

    1. Re:The FCC can just take back their access rights by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Only if Congress has granted them the authority to do so and only for the reasons that Congress specified as grounds to do so.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    2. Re:The FCC can just take back their access rights by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      Only if Congress has granted them the authority to do so and only for the reasons that Congress specified as grounds to do so.

      Again congress has not given the FCC authority to regulate the internet.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    3. Re:The FCC can just take back their access rights by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I have not made an in depth study of the statutory basis for the FCCs authority. My original point was that if Congress has not given the FCC the authority to regulate the Internet, it does not have that authority even though it is the "Federal Communication Commission" (and that it can be debated as to whether or not Congress has the Constitutional authority to give the FCC authority over the Internet).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  10. Congress Passes Laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Net Neutrality aside, the issue here is the US Constitution. Those of you who are quick to grant the Executive branch of government that much far-reaching authority while you cheerlead the current president need to imagine that power in the hands of someone like Rick Perry.

    Worse yet, Congress voted on Net Neutrality and voted it down. They said no. Like it or not, that's law, folks.

    The FCC has abused power and this needs to be thrown out, and Julius should be frog marched out of his office.

    If you want to go back and discuss the benefits and pitfalls of Net Neutrality, please do so without violating the word and intent of the rule of law.

    1. Re:Congress Passes Laws by Toonol · · Score: 1

      Right. It's a bit like gun control... like it or not, freedom to bear arms is in the constitution, and no matter how sensible it might be to forbid private ownership of guns, the danger from circumventing constitutional restrictions is FAR worse than guns ever would be. If congress said no to the FCC, and you don't like it, don't advocate the FCC doing an illegal power grab; instead, lobby congress.

  11. Wow by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

    The fact that Verizon's unhappy with the very weak net neutrality legislation that has loopholes big enough to drive an aircraft carrier through sideways tells me Verizon has some SERIOUSLY evil plans in store...

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  12. Detestable wording by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 2

    New companies see the consumers broadband connection as a free resource to exploit. The ISPs would like these companies to share in the burden they are placing on their networks.

    That, my friend, is a detestable rewording of the issues intended to evoke sympathy from the masses.

    Share the burden? Exploit resources for free? That's called framing. Was that your intent?

    New companies see the consumers broadband connection as a resource the consumers have paid for.

    New companies see the consumers broadband connection as a resource the consumers will use to get goods and services.

    People thinking about starting new companies see an opportunity to start new business using the consumers broadband connection to deliver goods and services.

    People thinking about starting new companies can create innovative new products and services using the consumers broadband connection.

    Let's all go back to the pre-iPhone model where the telcos were gatekeepers of phone apps. In those days you were lucky to get Tetris on a phone. It wasn't the vibrant ecology of business we now have, but at least no one was "exploiting" the user's "resource".

    Grow some integrity. Get a job working for someone who doesn't pay you to lie.

  13. Price Gouging for Tethering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The only reason Verizon even cares to get this struck down is that they want to charge extra for tethering. If you can connect any device to their network, and that device just happens to support tethering, than they can't charge you or ban you for doing so if the open regulations can be enforced. If they're not enforceable, Verizon, et al., can go on price gouging their customers for features where they add no value.

  14. What net neutrality boils down to by radaghast · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Imagine if your power provider wanted to charge different prices for your power based on whether you used it for toasting bread or watching TV; even further, what if it charged more for your toaster power if you used a brand of toaster that has not paid the power company for 'better' rates. The courts would never allow such a business practice.

    1. Re:What net neutrality boils down to by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Imagine if your power provider wanted to charge different prices for your power based on whether you used it for toasting bread or watching TV; even further, what if it charged more for your toaster power if you used a brand of toaster that has not paid the power company for 'better' rates. The courts would never allow such a business practice.

      That doesn't mean that the FCC has the authority to "fix" this.

      --
      "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    2. Re:What net neutrality boils down to by radaghast · · Score: 1

      Perhaps not a constitutional authority, but the government has a responsibility to regulate situations where the free market breaks down. The obvious situations where this happens are utilities, health care, and to some extent the externalities caused by the energy industry. And I'm considering ISPs a utility in the case of land-line providers.

    3. Re:What net neutrality boils down to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well obviously TV power should cost less than toaster power. You can put adds in a toaster. (Yet...)

    4. Re:What net neutrality boils down to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Will never allow? Service providers in general has a long history of being able to dictate any rules, and then deny services to subscriber if anyone breaks the rules.

    5. Re:What net neutrality boils down to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "That doesn't mean that the FCC has the authority to "fix" this." -- Nom du Keyboard (633989)

      That doesn't mean that you has the authority to "post" this....

  15. I Think That It's Stupid... by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1

    I think that it's absolutely stupid that Verizon had to wait until the rules went into effect before they could sue over them. Just think for a moment how much cost and trouble these rules will cause if they're overturned months, or years, after they went into effect when all of this could have been avoided by testing them in court first.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  16. Quick fix...crypt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    encrypt everything

    1. Re:Quick fix...crypt by TheSpoom · · Score: 1

      Oh, the throttling they'll do to traffic they can't identify...

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
  17. Would be stupid, except that its not true by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    I think that it's absolutely stupid that Verizon had to wait until the rules went into effect before they could sue over them.

    Verizon has already sued over them, and the rules go into effect on November 20, so its obvious that Verizon did not have to wait until the rules went into effect before they could sue.

    What they had to do was wait until the rules were published in the Federal Register which is the thing that makes them an official rule.

    Just think for a moment how much cost and trouble these rules will cause if they're overturned months, or years, after they went into effect when all of this could have been avoided by testing them in court first.

    That's a valid concern, which is why the law requires regulations like this to be published in the Federal Register for a certain length of time before they go into effect, and courts have the power when a challenge is made, if certain criteria are met, to prevent the regulation from going into effect until the challenge is resolved.

  18. The vast majority have cable.... by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 1

    and a variety of slow, expensive, crappy alternatives. (I've tried DSL. Sucks balls) Which is almost as bad as having no alternatives, and certainly does not constitute healthy competition or a free marketplace.

    --
    Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
    1. Re:The vast majority have cable.... by khallow · · Score: 0

      At least, I got someone to admit that there wasn't a monopoly here. I don't buy your claim that the alternatives are "slow". They might be a bit slower than cable, but that's fast enough for most of the garbage people claim they need on the internet.

      Nor do I see how this comment is relevant to the current situation of net neutrality. Being unwilling to shop around isn't the fault of the cable company. It's your fault.

    2. Re:The vast majority have cable.... by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 1

      Streaming video over DSL was unwatchable, so no, not "fast enough". Google "gaming via satellite". Again, not fast enough. I can't shop around for a viable alternative that doesn't exist!

      --
      Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
  19. Deep Frustration by davesque · · Score: 1

    I find it deeply frustrating when these companies behave like this. You look and just feel helpless. What can you do? They have millions of dollars and probably lots of connections in the legal world. I want to believe that we lowly humans have some kind of liberty against them. Anyone have any thoughts?

  20. False Advertising by harryjohnston · · Score: 1

    I wonder if the FCC wouldn't have better luck by regulating advertising claims. I'm neither a lawyer nor American so I'm not sure what legal rights/responsibilities they have, but would they (or some other friendly government entity) be able to write a standardized definition of the phrase "broadband internet access" and insist that ISPs not mislead consumers by offering them something they aren't really getting?

    Most of the important requirements of net neutrality are, after all, just restatements of what internet access is supposed to be.

    It might also be useful if they could provide a working definition for "minimum available bandwidth", i.e., the minimum bandwidth the user can expect to actually receive when the network is at its most busy, and require ISPs to provide this information (as well, of course, as any applicable data caps and/or "fair use" policies) to potential customers in plain terms.

    (It probably isn't economically practicable for ISPs to economically provide a specified minimum bandwidth at all times, but something like a 99th-percentile system might work well. One of the other practical problems with creating a workable definition is that bandwidth to any particular remote host might be limited at the other end, and it may be difficult to unambiguously define where "this end" stops and "the other end" begins; hopefully, though, the experts could come up with something.)