Kernel Bug Means Linux Power Usage Remains High

An anonymous reader writes "The significant Linux kernel power regression reported back in April, which ended up being attributed to PCI-E Active State Power Management, is still not resolved even as Ubuntu 11.10 and Fedora 16 approach. Until Linux is able to handle ASPM in a manner more like Windows or the device drivers explicitly set the ASPM flag, users of many modern laptops need to use the "pcie_aspm=force" option to regain much of their battery life. At least a power bug affecting newer Intel hardware with the "energy performance bias" feature has been fixed. There's more information in this LaunchPad bug report and in the latest power consumption testing."

Comments

You mean Moronix, right?

[Anonymous Coward]

Phoronix? More like Moronix, amirite?

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[CajunArson]

Phoronix has issues because the guy running it likes to oversensationalize and hyperbolize to get traffic and ad revenue... which is to say it's exactly like Slashdot with the difference being that Phoronix actually does some useful work and there are valuable facts that Phoronix discovers.

The (multiple) kernel power bugs are a very real problem affecting a large number of Linux users and Phoronix helped to shine a light on the issue and at least get the word out about work-arounds. I don't hang on everything that Phoronix publishes, but dismissing it just shows that you want to remain wilfully ignorant about real issues surrounding Linux so that you can appear 'l33t' to your friends.

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't read this... it is a curse...

In 2003, a little boy named Cody was walking down the sidewalk and going to the store. Suddenly, he was transported to a large dark alley. His clothes weren't transported with him! He heard evil laughter and whispers from all around him. He began running to look for an exit whilst thinking about the two entities that were chasing him. Then, to his horror, he tripped and fell face-first on the ground and could no longer move a single cheek!

He then felt two entities jump on both of his bootyasscheeks. Then, his vision was transported elsewhere and he found himself staring at his own body as if he was looking at himself through a security camera. The two entities were toys! He saw the toys get ready to jump up his butt after saying, "Reaaaaady?" However, just before they could jump into his bootyass, a strange figure appeared in the darkness and said, "Wait! Use this!"

The toys replied, "Whaaaaaat dooooooes iiiiiiit dooooooo?" The strange man said, "Iiiiiiiiiit puuuuuuuts iiiiiit uuuuuup hiiiiiis buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuutt!" Then, a strange machine appeared out of nowhere, moved its arm, and dropped a counterfeit US quarter into Cody's bootyass! It inflicted tremendous amounts of tickle upon his bootyass, and it sounded like a quarter going down a slot machine!

Now that you have read this (even a single word of it), the strange man will use his machine to insert counterfeit US quarters into your bootyass (thereby inflicting ridiculous amounts of tickle upon it)! To prevent this from happening, post this curse as a comment three times.

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[Anonymous Coward]

Phoronix testing of video devices has been very helpful to me. The state of Intel and AMD video drivers is analysed in enough detail to make good decisions about hardware for embedded systems. I've found high correlation between my own test results and those of Phoronix.

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[PixetaledPikachu]

+1. I've been sticking with Maverick on my Vaio E, since Natty actually slashed half of my battery life, even when forcing ASPM

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[ToasterMonkey]

Phoronix has issues because the guy running it likes to oversensationalize and hyperbolize to get traffic and ad revenue... which is to say it's exactly like Slashdot with the difference being that Phoronix actually does some useful work and there are valuable facts that Phoronix discovers.

The (multiple) kernel power bugs are a very real problem affecting a large number of Linux users and Phoronix helped to shine a light on the issue and at least get the word out about work-arounds. I don't hang on everything that Phoronix publishes, but dismissing it just shows that you want to remain wilfully ignorant about real issues surrounding Linux so that you can appear 'l33t' to your friends.

Welcome to New Media, same as the Old Media.

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[Anonymous Coward]

but dismissing it just shows that you want to remain wilfully ignorant

Or it could mean that the town folk are a bit tired of running out to see no wolf. Phoronix may be on to something with the power issues but the signal to noise ratio is very low. Every article is stretched out to 10 pages full of full page advertisements, contains 90+ links to other Phoronix articles (as if that somehow makes each article more credible), and their forms are overrun with clueless trolls.

I don't blame people from baulking at the mention of Phoronix you just can't tell if it's just another stunt. You'll have to forgive some of us who aren't into fact checking Phoronix. Sure Phoronix is sometimes right but so is fucking 4chan. You can call me "willfully ignorant" for not trying to differentiate the bullshit from those two sources but I consider it a better use of my time to just stick to more reputable sources that don't try to trick me into clicking something.

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[DarwinSurvivor]

Honest question here. Do you know of any other, reputable, sites people can use to see which video cards work best with linux, which SSD's actually deliver on speed, etc? I've long used phronix simply because it was all I knew about, but would love to have some other sites to at least compare notes with.

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[hairyfeet]

But this is a good example of why Linux isn't ready for the masses. Sure the geeks here, with years of experience and who actually like to hang out at geek heavy sites can use esoteric workarounds, but what about Sally the cashier? Joe the construction worker? your landlady? All of these people will only find that Linux equals shit battery life if they were to use one which they would then tell to all their friends, hurting the image further.

This is nearly 2012 guys, there really isn't any excuse for this Mickey mouse minor league bullshit. Take a lesson from the late Steve Jobs and focus ON THE USER and make damned sure it "just works" OOTB, no workarounds, no tweaks, no bullshit. Updates shouldn't break drivers, you shouldn't need esoteric workarounds just to have usable battery life, c'mon guys, bring your A game!

I mean here it is, you have less than 2 years before hundreds of millions of late model desktops and laptops will be EOLed by MSFT thanks to the killing of XP, and THIS is the best you can do? No sir I don't believe that. From 2000 through 2005 I saw slow but steady progress when it came to Linux but then Canonical came around and it seemed like the whole community just lost their damned minds. Now everyone is on a truly insane 6 month upgrade deathmarch that gives ZERO time for QA, bugs don't get fixed, instead new versions come out that just add new bugs on top of old, it is like you are taking 1 step forward and three steps back.

But Linux has done better in the past and could do better again. Use the 2014 EOL of XP as a rallying point. tell Canonical to stick their crazy upgrade schedule, either make all distros a rock solid 7 year support cycle or make Torvalds STFU and give you an ABI so that upgrades don't shit all over drivers, get rid of the stupid esoteric workarounds, and make users job #1. the only reason Linux isn't on machines in every retail store in America is ignorant bullshit just like this. Bring your A games guys, you can do so much better.

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[gmack]

Don't be stupid. If they had done that we would all be blasting Linux for making things unstable. The setting that used the power regression was that due to stability issues Linux now by default leaves the power state setting where the BIOS left it with a switch to enable it if you feel brave. This all means that if you have a non buggy chipset Linux will use the power save setting as before. This is the smart play because if the BIOS hasn't set it than it hasn't been tested by the manufacturer.

Phoronix is trolling, if they have a laptop where the setting works fine they need to be complaining to the Laptop manufacturer and have them correct their BIOS to take full support of the chipset.

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[cynyr]

Sorry, I started dismissing it when they sat on a fairly major bug/regression for a week, and then had a big article about how bugs/regressions do not get fixed in the kernel.

If you find a bug/regression report it to LKML, don't expect the linux devs to watch the output of your little test suite. Don't get me wrong, I really like the testing, just that when they see something like this, and have it narrowed down to a few commits, freaking report it so it can get fixed.

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[cynyr]

for SSDs and other such OS independent stuff, i like http://www.silentpcreview.com/ Ony site that i have found with a load cell to test manufacturers claims on PSUs, including the efficiency ones, same goes for fans (both CFM and sound)

As for video cards, Assume that non-bleeding edge desktop cards from nvidia just work, as do intel "cards" but with poor performance. AMD/ATI cards may or may not work, and even if they do only sometimes with the right versions of the kernel, X, and catalyst.

Printers are at openprinting.org (if it is back up), but you could always just get an HP and expect it to work.

I use google to find newegg comments about hardware if i'm looking for something else. Gennerly if it works on ubuntu, i can have it working on gentoo without issue.

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[hairyfeet]

So your answer is use esoteric workarounds? I'm shocked you didn't add stable kernel ABI nonsense just to add to your giant fail and bullshit. And folks wonder why Linux is dead last. MSFT and Apple are bring their A games, your playing hackey sack.

I know its a complete shock but to most people? windows and OSX just work and they do so without fail, without esoteric workarounds, without driver bullshit and WITHOUT EXCUSES, which sadly is all you get from the "community" anymore, along with bullshit, insults, and pages of CLI "fixes" crapola. Oh don't forget to call me an "M$ Ninja shill astroturfer dirty man!" just to seal the fail trifecta. stupid shit like this is why Linux is dead last and frankly? deserves to BE last.

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[scottbomb]

I tried to read the writeup on the website. It launched a pop-up ad (on work PC, must accept...) and then it froze my browser. WTF? I won't let that website near any of my personal PCs if it's going to be that abuisive.

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[diego.viola]

OSX is designed for a single hardware specification, Linux runs on countless of hardware, and we have to reverse engineer some drivers and try to make most hardware work. Your comments are clearly disrespectful, and you should go bitch the hardware manufacturers instead.

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[gmack]

No My answer is for the BIOS makers to do the right thing and quite frankly, the current situation is hardly Microsoft's "A" game when an estimated 70% of windows problems are due to driver crashes. The only reason MicroSoft allows this to continue is because it works against their competitors and if they gave a flying crap about their own customers they would have demanded hardware makers all conform to a set of standards that MicroSoft can write drivers for a long time ago.

Oh, and if your favored platform has so many fiddly tweaks they they have generated a cottage industry of tool makers (PowerTweak etc) you don't get to call out the competition for "esoteric workarounds"
 

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[hairyfeet]

Riiight, it works for MSFT but it is everyone ELSE'S fault when Linux doesn't work, couldn't be bad OS design, right? you DO know what excuses and assholes have in common, yes? The USER don't give a shit WHY it don't work, and BTW in Win 7 a good 85%+ of the drivers? They JUST WORK. bring your A game or sit on the bench, your choice.

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[quanticle]

OSX is designed for a single hardware specification, Linux runs on countless of hardware, and we have to reverse engineer some drivers and try to make most hardware work. Your comments are clearly disrespectful, and you should go bitch the hardware manufacturers instead.

In that vein, a registry of some kind that told you what hardware was compatible with your Linux distro would be a godsend. I mean, I've seen various half-hearted attempts to start something like this, but they've always petered out. Then when you find them on Google, you get your hopes up, only to have them dashed by lists upon lists of laptops, video cards, sound cards, etc. that were EOL'd years ago.

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[diego.viola]

I find that most hardware works just fine these days, I have access to 6 computers and most of the hardware in those computers is all different. Linux detects all the hardware just fine.

Take a look at the nouveau driver for example, it accelerates 2d and even 3d and it's all reversed engineered and created without documentation. What I suggest is that you try Linux with your hardware and if you have any problems, always report the bugs to the developers so they can fix it.

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[badkarmadayaccount]

Hardware probing can get you some sane hardware IDs, thing is, the package system has to be able to handle kernel patching as a part of the installation process, as well as configuration management, see Electra initiative. Where should I submit the feature request?

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[badkarmadayaccount]

If you want a just works linux machine, then call up System67 and friends. Works like a well oiled machine, just as well as any Mac. Windows has plenty of problems with weird hardware, though it just gives you the finger, and no way to fix it, so - not much better than linux, either.

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[hairyfeet]

So then please be the first to join in on any "You can replace that Windows machine with Linux" posting on /. and point out IT IS A TOTAL LIE and by your VERY OWN WORDS Linux is NOT a usable replacement for Windows but for Macs instead!

You see it is THIS, this right here, kind of hypocrisy and bullshit that has made sure Linux stays right where it is, dead last. They say "Its a drop in replacement for Windows!" and when you point out articles like TFA that show if you drop in your system goes to shit? They say "Well duh! By drop in we meant throw out all your hardware and start over with a more expensive system just like the Apple guys do!" Well riddle me THIS friend: Then why the fuck wouldn't I just buy an Apple, where I get better quality, resale, and battery life huh? what do YOU have OTHER than "Free as in freedom, fight the power!" to offer? BTW the whole "free as in freedom" thing? Nobody gives a shit. just look at sales of the iShiny, one of the most locked down devices in history, for an example of how little folks give a shit about freedom to tinker.

So I'm sorry but your post is just another example of how when Apple and MSFT bring their A games Linux has excuses and hackey sack. Yours is a classic example of what I call "moving the goal posts" where you say "Point A is true!" and when pointed out point A is false you then go "But if you do point b-f THEN point A is true!" yeah and if Xena rode up naked on a purple pony wanting to rock my world I'd be a happy camper, doubt its gonna happen though.

Final tip: If Linux won't run on the stuff we already have money in? Nobody gives a fuck enough to go out and hunt for some niche specialty Linux vendor. That is just like "use esoteric workarounds" (which nobody on windows but the tweakers bother with) or the whole "open up bash and type" after spending three hours doing the forum dance. nobody frankly gives a shit about linux to go through all that horseshit, as the numbers plainly show. Where was Linux 5 years ago? 1%. Where was it two years ago? 1%. Where will it be in 5 years if it stays on the same path? why it don't take Kojak to solve THAT mystery friend, that would be 1%.

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[badkarmadayaccount]

Well, it works just fine on non-selected hardware for many people, and I believe it has a bright long term future - emphasis on believe - but why do we have to argue this over and over - I think I speak for the majority of slashdot when I say - if you don't like Linux, don't use it, and don't pester us, ok? We got the constructive criticism, and there is apparently not enough political will for change, not when retaining technical merit on other fronts, so there is no point in reiterating, ok?

Re:You mean Moronix, right?

[crutchy]

i take windows machines that microsoft chooses to no longer support and put current versions of linux on them with very few problems. these machines still run their older version of windows fine, but would struggle to run Vista or Win7 (if you could even get them to install)

its fine to get on your soapbox and rant, but what is your ranting worth to someone with experience to the contrary? answer: they just think you're a ranting dickhead.

people who try to keep their microsoft software up-to-date keep having to buy new hardware with each new version with windows

because of this, i get free computers that still work just fine for Linux

even works for laptops. if people have trouble with windows, i get them for free and have little/no trouble putting new linux on. i have an old (8 years) laptop that had a dvd drive fuck up so i couldn't use the recovery disc any more. i could fork out money to buy a new dvd drive (or a new laptop) but i can boot it off my linux boot server and install linux using a sd card and a netinstall.

moral of story: linux vendors not required :)
br btw, you don't have to feel threatened by linux. i'm sure its quite happy coming last (whatever that means). its not engaged in any sort of race in which it could come first. it just exists. there are of course people who don't understand this, but i'm sure you agree they are just fucktards who compare linux with windows. in reality the two are not comaprable. they perform a similar function, but for entirely different reasons.

hmm

[Aighearach]

I wonder how much wasted power a beowulf cluster of those would have?

Re:hmm

[sodul]

You must be old here ... sorry could not resist Mr 5 digits ;-)

Re:hmm

[jaymz666]

I was wondering the same thing...

Re:hmm

[Yobgod Ababua]

Damn kids. Get off our lawn!
(Or at least install Linux on it...)

Year of the Linux Desktop

[Anonymous Coward]

After this fix, it's coming soon!

Phoronix?

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL, we are still believing shit that Phoronix posts? How's that Steam for Linux release coming along, eh?

Re:Phoronix?

[RMingin]

Yeah, I'm still a little bitter that that issue came to nothing in the end. It certainly did look like parts of a Linux-native Steam GUI.

Re:Phoronix?

[Zeroedout]

It really did, and he claims it's still in the works... I'm quite bitter as well but he seems confident in his source (no pun intended). It makes sense that it took longer than Valve intended, I just hope it didn't get cancelled.

Re:Phoronix?

[jonwil]

I think there IS a Steam for Linux, at least inside Valve.
It may be that they are still working on it with plans for a future release.
It may be that its only a test and not actually intended for release. It may be that it was intended for release but was canceled for some reason.

Blizzard for example at one point had a Linux client for World of Warcraft. But the "powers that be" vetoed the release because then they would need to maintain that release and release Linux patches concurrently with Mac and Windows patches which would require more development staff and/or patch delays whilst they finished the Linux work.

Re:Phoronix?

[RMingin]

The fact of the OSX Steam release gives me hope (if they'll do OSX, they've done most of the work, go after Linux too), but the counter-fact that nothing has been released or announced, despite most of the work being done, takes that hope away again.

Wine still works, though.

Re:Phoronix?

[Lehk228]

there should be little if any major differences between the linux and osx versions

Re:Phoronix?

[hairyfeet]

Sadly it won't happen, and here is why: Both Windows and OSX support DRM, Linux don't, its just that simple. More and more of the titles on Steam have DRM on TOP of Steam, so all those titles? poof, gone. can't offer those. So already you've fractured their market. Then of course you have all the "phone home" games, and of course steam itself which is DRM, and we have seen how there is a VERY vocal group in the Linux community that thinks ALL DRM is the most evil thing ever created and thus will go out of their way to publish as many hacks and cracks as they possibly can as soon as it is released.

While i personally would love it if Linux would have a butt simple, easy to use game service like Steam right now the community is split in two. On the one side you have the followers of RMS, who believes that ANY software without the four freedoms is the spawn of Satan, and then you have Torvalds who is more of a "just make it work" kind of guy and isn't militant, hence why he kept the kernel GPL V2. But as long as RMS and his followers hold so much sway I seriously doubt you will have such a high profile DRM service like Steam on Linux, just too much hatred for DRM in the community.

Anyway while it isn't Steam for those Linux guys that would like some cheap games to play Good Old Games has a list of games which run on Linux and of course all are DRM free, enjoy.

Re:Phoronix?

[Peristaltic]

Probably a hare-brained idea, but it would be nice if the Humble Bundle group had enough critical mass to create a Steam-like distribution mechanism.

Re:Phoronix?

[leenks]

You think all Mac users should run things in X11? Really?

Re:Phoronix?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly it won't happen, and here is why: Both Windows and OSX support DRM,

Citation needed.

Linux don't,

Citation also needed, because if Windows and OS X "support DRM", so does Linux -- in the sense that it's certainly possible to build DRM on top of general purpose operating systems.

its just that simple. More and more of the titles on Steam have DRM on TOP of Steam, so all those titles? poof, gone. can't offer those.

More citation needed. What titles, and how do you know?

Finally!

[jaymzter]

Seems like its been so long since relevant technical submissions were made to /. I remember being able to learn so many interesting OS tricks from poster's comments to articles and hearing about new software.

Now it's mostly just crap about who pissed on who's patents...

Re:Finally!

[Aighearach]

Did you think the Grand Taco left for no reason?

Re:Finally!

[cadeon]

Unfortunately, that's what the majority of the news is these days.

Years ago, a kernel regression that didn't result in a lockup or massive data corruption would have been borderline slow-news-day material. Today, software quality as a whole has increased, and there's not as much of that (or as many groundbreaking new features) going on. There's still some interesting stuff going on in the mobile world, but PCs and Servers have largely been figured out for the time being. At least compared to what it was a while back.

As much as I'd like to jump on this "Blame slashdot, slashdot sucks now" bandwagon, they're just reporting what's happening, IMHO.

And if they aren't reporting what you think is newsworthy, blame yourself for not submitting 'real' stories and/or not drinking from the firehose.

Re:Finally!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't read this... it is a curse...

In 2002, a little boy named Jerry was walking down the sidewalk. Then, he spotted a large, spooky-looking house with a foggy graveyard in the backyard. He decided to climb over the fence and go into the graveyard.

However, this soon proved to be a mistake. Soon after he entered the graveyard, all of his clothes vanished and he could no longer move a single cheek! Suddenly, he was somehow looking at the back of himself as if he was looking through a security camera. He could see his bootyass from this position.

That's when Jerry noticed that his cheeks were covered in graveyard fog. They were completely white! Then, Jerry noticed that a lick mark appeared on his left cheek, accompanied by the following sound: "alim tsk tsk!" It sounded almost like a whisper. Then more of the lick marks started appearing! The invisible entity slurping his cheeks shifted between his left and right cheek and got closer to his bootyasscheekcrack with each slurp! Finally, the lick marks reached his bootyasscheekcrack, and he felt something fly into his bootyasscheekcrackhole.

That's when it happened. Jerry's bootyass became something else entirely. It became nothing more than a rumblehouse bootyass! Something began bouncing around inside of his bootyass and using his bootyass as a bouncehouse! It inflicted extreme amounts of tickle upon his bootyass!

Now that you have read this (even a single word of it), the same invisible entity will aloomper your cheeks and then use your bootyass as a bouncehouse (thereby inflicting extreme amounts of tickle upon it)! To prevent this from happening, post this curse as a comment three times.

Re:Finally!

[djlowe]

Now it's mostly just crap about who pissed on who's patents

Well, that's marginally better than the copyright wars that reigned here not so long ago... or the global warming debate... or... what was before that? I forget.

I imagine, however, that those generated more revenue. Patent battles among corporations are pretty much a battle among giants, and most of us here are just nerdly peons, fairly removed from such. They're gonna do whatever they want, work it out in the end, and the rest of us will get shat upon, one way or another.

From here in the "cheap seats"? Shit is shit, regardless of who is dumping it on you, or so it seems to me.

Cynically,

dj

Re:Finally!

[Ethanol-fueled]

It's the classic "Rock Star" Syndrome. Does Rob call it quits and gracefully exit at his peak, or does he do what Metallica and the Red Hot Chili Peppers do and continue to release album after album of stale, auto-tuned gibberish? I think he lost an idealogical battle with his corporate overlords and said, "fuck it."

Or perhaps he wasn't spending enough time with the family and his wife found comfort with the African-American mailman.

But back on-topic: The "just works" attitude of Windows is bullshit. You have to use a CD or download drivers to use any peripheral with Windows. Now it is Linux that "just works." Power-draw-related complaints are some of the lamest in the computing world. What good is saving power with Windows if its only sane use is playing cutting-edge video games? Are you really cheap enough to bitch that a Linux desktop costs you 5 more cents a year than a comparable Windows one? Is power draw such a concern that you're willing to drop your *Nix or *BSD farm to go Windows? If not, then shut the fuck up.

Re:Finally!

[ultranova]

Well, that's marginally better than the copyright wars that reigned here not so long ago... or the global warming debate... or... what was before that? I forget.

Religion, specifically Intelligent Design. Which typically degenerated into a poo-flinging contest even faster than those two since neither side knew neither theology nor science (or at least the people who made the most noise didn't).

My theory is that these topics get posted cyclically to keep people from getting bored. It's not unlike crop rotation, with technical articles being the equivalent of letting the field lay fallow so it may regain its strength for the next round of pageview trolling topics.

Re:Finally!

[Anonymous Coward]

And this "story" is "mostly just crap about" someone going "Whaaaaahh! Linux is not like Windows! But I'm too retarded to think different! Please wipe my drool!"

PROTIP: Unless you actually paid those developers for your pretty open-source OS, and they agreed to work on your requests, how about you STFU and fix it yourself? You're not entitled to anything. If they want, they can write something just for themselves. Even if it's completely useless to you.

</rant>

Some people are waaaaayyy to egocentric.
How about you contribute something too? If you don't have the skills, the equivalent is to calculate the average number of hours a developer puts into your favorite project, multiply it by 20-100€ depending on how complex the work is, and ask a developer if he's willing to work on your wishes for that amount of money. :)

Re:Finally!

[Anonymous Coward]

Software quality has increased? Is that why you have to rush to install service packs before your machine gets pwned?

Re:Finally!

[RoLi]

Isn't the "global warming will turn Earth into a second Venus" - belief also a kind of religion?

I mean, hey I sure can believe that we may have a few a little-warmer-than-usual years, but if the "Hockeystick" were true, Denmark and Florida should be diving-resorts by now.

Re:Finally!

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh that's the point. If we wanted that sort of news we can get those from other sites.
Back then we could get the technical submissions on /. and the other news from other sites.

Re:Finally!

[Anonymous Coward]

Your observations confirm that (malware) software quality has definitely increased.

Re:Finally!

[Blaskowicz]

sadly, the hockey stick is true.

Re:Finally!

[bryan1945]

Never noticed he left. But he had no wireless, and was lame.

Re:Finally!

[gardyloo]

... or... what was before that? I forget.
 

Ponies!!!11111!1 and hot grits.

Re:Finally!

[EsbenMoseHansen]

The wildest prediction would not submerge Denmark... for instance, I am about 50m above the surface of the sea.

The capital Copenhagen, now, would be possible, at the central parts. But as we are set for a few-metres-rise-by-2100, even most of Copenhagen will be above-sea-level. At worst, it could be a new Venedi with bad weather and international cuisine.

Re:Finally!

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone who has ever thought to use the term PROTIP in a forum post is an idiot.

Re:Finally!

[Eunuchswear]

Isn't the "global warming will turn Earth into a second Venus" - belief also a kind of religion?

I mean, hey I sure can believe that we may have a few a little-warmer-than-usual years, but if the "Hockeystick" were true, Denmark and Florida should be diving-resorts by now.

another strawman "demolished".

Cretin.

There's nothing wrong with Phoronix...

[Gordonjcp]

... that a good unexplained fire and a stabbing wouldn't fix.

Re:There's nothing wrong with Phoronix...

[jones_supa]

unexplained fire

Don't you think that's a bit of a flamebait?

Re:There's nothing wrong with Phoronix...

[Gordonjcp]

Bahdum-tssch! :-D

It is not something that can be resolved...

[kvvbassboy]

It's a problem with the BIOS manufacturers, and the BIOS incorrectly reporting its ASPM capability. When an OEM installs Windows on a laptop, it can correctly tune these settings. But for a fresh install of Linux that YOU performed, a database of every motherboard + BIOS combination needs to be maintained in the open to set the force PCIE ASPM flag. If set wrongly, when the BIOS doesn't support it, it could lead to locking which is far more serious.

There are other solutions to effectively manage power in Linux, like Jupiter.

For more (and better) information, see the following links: About the Kernel 3.0 "Power Regression" Myth and PCIe, power management, and problematic BIOSes

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, yeah, it's always everyone else's fault except the Linux kernel itself.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a problem with the BIOS manufacturers, and the BIOS incorrectly reporting its ASPM capability. When an OEM installs Windows on a laptop, it can correctly tune these settings. But for a fresh install of Linux that YOU performed, a database of every motherboard + BIOS combination needs to be maintained in the open to set the force PCIE ASPM flag. If set wrongly, when the BIOS doesn't support it, it could lead to locking which is far more serious.

There are other solutions to effectively manage power in Linux, like Jupiter.

For more (and better) information, see the following links: About the Kernel 3.0 "Power Regression" Myth and PCIe, power management, and problematic BIOSes

If its a BIOS problem, why does it not affect Windows OS running on the same PC (with the same BIOS)?

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[ThatsMyNick]

No, not always. But in this case it *IS* someone else's fault.
Credit where credit is due, and fault where fault is due.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[NoSig]

How about on first boot on a new motherboard, Linux tries to set PCIE on, then runs tests that are going to result in the locking you mentioned if PCIE isn't actually available. Is that possible?

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a secret M$ plot to sabotage Linux. Duuuh.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[dbialac]

This is the kind of thing that makes linux a poor choice on the desktop. While the fix is correct from a technical perspective, it fails the "Grandma Test". If you're incredibly technical, no problem. Grandma, however, isn't going to know and understand how to enable ASPM via grub.conf. Her response is probably going to be, "Why are there worms in my computer?" A better route would be to develop a test to detect the error condition on the install of the OS, then save the configuration accordingly.

Grandma is also not going to be knowledge about the other ins and outs of kernel tuning her system that are discussed in the linked to article. A mechanism needs to be in place to adjust these settings when the user changes what power source their computer is using. This is a standard feature on both Mac and Windows. As most linux development is primarily focused on servers, fixing this type of thing unfortunately isn't likely to happen. I used to use linux on the desktop, then when OSX came out because I didn't have to do these kinds of adjustments. When I started my current job, I tried out Ubuntu because it was supposed to have resolved this kind of thing. Better (until Unity, WTF were they thinking?), but "it just works" remains illusive. I've now left linux on the desktop twice, and I'm technically proficient. Why do you think Grandma wants to use Windows?

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[billcopc]

Just because it's possible doesn't mean the zealots actually care about even trying. It's so much cooler to play the blame game, rather than focus on what's actually important: making things work!

The net result is that someone else has to implement the hackish-yet-perfectly-acceptable fix. Kernel devs could tackle it, but they won't, so someone else will. That someone else is often Redhat or Ubuntu, which means the fixes don't travel back upstream.

Even though it's the BIOS makers' fault, as an end user, I don't care. If the driver devs have an easy way to fix it, they should, because it will take months if not years to convince the OEMs to fix the problem at the source - if at all, because nobody gives a fuck about the 1% of us who use Linux on desktop and laptop machines.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[dbialac]

> I used to use linux on the desktop, then when OSX came out because I didn't have to do these kinds of adjustments.
I used to use linux on the desktop, then when OSX came out I switched because I didn't have to do these kinds of adjustments.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[Anonymous Coward]

They have different drivers. Additionally, there are other settings that can override the auto-detection in windows that can be set by the manufacturer.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you think Grandma wants to use Windows?

Of the two grandmas I know, one uses Linux (a relatively frequent user), one Windows (occasionally). Both because the person they're most likely to ask in case of problems use those systems as well, and both didn't set up their systems themselves.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[Microlith]

Just because it's possible doesn't mean the zealots actually care about even trying. It's so much cooler to play the blame game, rather than focus on what's actually important: making things work!

I like how you come out of the gate with an insult, and expect people to fix things for you.

PROTIP: Kernel devs would rather play it safe than risk causing data loss.

That someone else is often Redhat or Ubuntu, which means the fixes don't travel back upstream.

No, it's unlikely they will either. I doubt they want to start randomly crashing people's machines.

Even though it's the BIOS makers' fault, as an end user, I don't care.

You should. You're aware of what's going on, so you should blame the people responsible.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[Anonymous Coward]

Which part of "It's a problem with the BIOS manufacturers, and the BIOS incorrectly reporting its ASPM capability." didn't you understand?

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[MightyMartian]

Oh give me a break. When Vista first came out all sorts of people were noticing battery life decreased substantially. Linux is hardly alone in the "WTF is causing that" department.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[Anonymous Coward]

Finally, Linux has caught up with Vista, now on to Win 7

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[mabhatter654]

Sure... Then Linux takes 20 minutes to boot.

The problem is that things like the ACPI are by chipset, and manufacturer, model and firmware rev. PCI vendor and ID strings aren't enough to just make a table to check at start... Let alone all the hardware interactions in an end user machine.

Even trying to look up the settings on websites that track this stuff for some random PC you didn't build yourself is an hours long daunting task... And Big Box stuff often never makes those lists.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder which is that: "you can't be aware about you need these kinds of adjustments" or "you can't have these kinds of adjustments"

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[DarwinSurvivor]

That would be like if the company that made your engine created a bug where piston 3 would miss-fire ever 8th stroke, and then YOU demanding that the ECU programmers test for the bug when you start the car and not fire the 3rd piston each 8th revolution.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[whoever57]

This is the kind of thing that makes linux a poor choice on the desktop. While the fix is correct from a technical perspective, it fails the "Grandma Test". If you're incredibly technical, no problem. Grandma, however, isn't going to know and understand how to enable ASPM via grub.conf. Her response is probably going to be, "Why are there worms in my computer?" A better route would be to develop a test to detect the error condition on the install of the OS, then save the configuration accordingly.

The problem has its roots in the fact that very, very few people actually install Windows. I recently installed a non-OEM (bare Microsoft disk) copy of Windows 7 on a PC and guess what? It was very unstable. Crashed at least once per day. So, I tracked down the vendor's drivers and installed the chipset driver. Now it is stable.

If Grandma installed her own copy of Windows, this kind of problem would be fixed very quickly.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[jaymz666]

Good luck determining all the windows drivers you need to install when rebuilding a laptop from bare drive and wanting to avoid all the bloatware that the manufacturer wants to put on it. Depending on the model number you may have one chipset, or another, depending on what options you choose for the wireless devices.

It's no small task at all.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well if Grandma can afford a new Windows every 3 years on her same speed, doing the same tasks computer, then good for her. But, it's free, people!

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[Burpmaster]

This is the kind of thing that makes linux a poor choice on the desktop.

No, it's the sort of thing that makes changing out the stock OS a poor choice on the desktop.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you should not underestimate my grandmother

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[Joce640k]

The bit I don't understand is why Linux sucks up everybody's battery just so some broken systems/drivers will work.

Surely the correct thing to do is to follow the standards and let users vote with their wallets. That way the people making broken systems might get off their asses and do something about it.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[Joce640k]

When Vista first came out all sorts of people were noticing battery life decreased substantially.

Yeah but Linux hasn't just come out and it isn't suddenly requiring new drivers from everybody because it broke the old model. Linux is supposed to be working by now. This is the year of Linux, remember?

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[Anonymous Coward]

Even though it's the BIOS makers' fault, as an end user, I don't care. If the driver devs have an easy way to fix it, they should, because it will take months if not years to convince the OEMs to fix the problem at the source - if at all, because nobody gives a fuck about the 1% of us who use Linux on desktop and laptop machines.

Cry me a river, emo boy. The "hackish-yet-perfectly-acceptable-fix" is already in place!

Use the pcie_aspm=force kernel command line. Edit /etc/default/grub with it, then run update-grub.

I guess googling for 2 minutes would've discovered this and a lot more, but it sure was easier to be a whiny bitch in Slashdot instead, yes?

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[rnswebx]

I just did this two weeks ago on a Dell laptop. From start to fully functional OS, starting with a non-dell windows xp CD, including sound, network (both wireless and ethernet), and graphics drivers totaled about 2 hours. The total time is misleading as well because more than an hour of that was formatting and waiting for the installer to copy the files over.

Dell's site was easy to navigate for my old laptop (Dell D620) and had all the drivers broken down by category. It was a complete no-brainer, and I'm quite certain my mom could've done it without issue.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[jones_supa]

Yeah, but is the Linux grandma one of those cases where she has been taught how to fire up the web browser, but for all other tasks this maintenance person has to hold the hand or dial in with ssh to set up things... :)

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[mcgrew]

Thank you for that, it'll be useful when I get Linux on this driveless subnotebook. Power isn't a problem with the box that runs on AC.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[LinuxIsGarbage]

When Vista first came out all sorts of people were noticing battery life decreased substantially.

Yeah but Linux hasn't just come out and it isn't suddenly requiring new drivers from everybody because it broke the old model. Linux is supposed to be working by now. This is the year of Linux, remember?

Linux requires new drivers all the time. The kernel APIs/ABIs for drivers change all the time causing all sorts of breakage. Meanwhile in Windows 7 I can load Windows 2000 device drivers.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[jaymz666]

Whenever I do the same with an HP, everything tends to work, however there is always one or two "unknown device"s in the device manager.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[xtracto]

Yeah, yeah, it's always everyone else's fault except the Linux kernel itself.

Definitely, as with almost all Linux issues, this is not Linux fault, but it still is its problem. From a pragmatic point of view the fact is that Linux in a laptop draws more power than other operating systems (such as OSX or Windows).

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[amazon10x]

It's the same on Windows. When the DNS servers at our ISP go down it's not as if my mother just goes "Oh, I'll just pop into the control panel here and use the Google DNS server!"

In my experience, anything beyond running a basic program on any OS is something that a non-computer literate user is not going to be able to do. Windows, Mac, and Linux are all equally difficult to use.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[kermidge]

Thank you for the information and the links. I found the discussion following Corbett's post at lwn.net enlightening. I'll be trying out Jupiter on my laptop.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[shutdown -p now]

If your hardware is recent (as in, last few years), and you're installing Windows 7, all you need is to get Internet connectivity working. In many cases WiFi will work out of the box, otherwise you'll need wired - but once there, Windows Update can locate and install all needed drivers in vast majority of cases. I haven't had a case where I had to hunt down some driver in the last 2 years.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[jaymz666]

I had an HP dv7t a couple of months ago, Windows 7 did not find all the drivers it needed automatically, by a long shot.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[dbialac]

> No, it's the sort of thing that makes changing out the stock OS a poor choice on the desktop.

I can easily install Windows XP/Vista/7 on my mac, and it isn't the stock OS.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[Burpmaster]

It may not be the stock OS, but it still has official support from the manufacturer, which is a similar situation. And even with that, the install and setup process isn't totally user-friendly. I'm looking at these instructions.

You have to do the partition setup twice. Once in MacOS to resize the existing filesystem and create a new partition, and again in the Windows installer to select the new partition as the install destination. Select the wrong partition, and you wipe out your data.

Then it comes up in low graphics mode. Connect to the Internet, let Windows Update run and reboot for the graphics driver. Then put in the Mac OS disc, run the install program and reboot. If sound isn't working, download drivers from realtek.com and reboot.

If Apple put the same effort into supporting Linux that they put into Windows, you wouldn't need the MacOS-side app at all. They'd upstream everything needed, so you can just boot the install disc. The partition setup done in the Ubuntu installer is essentially the same screen as the Boot Camp partition setup, except it directly leads into the install process without a reboot followed by a re-selection of the install partition. After the first boot of the installed OS, you'd have at most one more reboot to install a proprietary graphics driver in the case of nVidia/ATI graphics.

So you'd do partition setup once instead of twice, you'd reboot 0-1 times instead of 2-3 times (after OS install), and there'd be no "insert this disc and run setup.exe" or downloading from specific websites. Everything needed to run well (sound, power management, etc) would be integrated into the install disc (except proprietary graphics drivers, and Windows is no better on this matter).

So let me clarify my original statement: Any OS is likely to not run well on a system if there isn't official support for the OS from the system's manufacturer. Linux isn't immune to this rule, but it's far better at operating without official support than any other OS out there. To convey this as a failure on the part of Linux devs is absurd. If you want a system that runs an OS well, buy from a competent manufacturer that officially supports the OS.

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[badkarmadayaccount]

Hairyfeet? Is that you?

Re:It is not something that can be resolved...

[billcopc]

Bad car analogy, because an ECU can actually do that.

malice and incompetence

[Anonymous Coward]

The really annoying thing here is that the huge power regression bug affecting a lot of hardware (everything with a PCI Express bus) was marked as fixed when an unrelated bug only affecting a tiny amount of hardware (the very newest Intel processors) was fixed. It's almost like Canonical is attempting to shove this under the rug, but it's probably just incompetence. Either way, this sort of thing is all too common with Open Source software, and it has to stop. It's driving people away.

Re:malice and incompetence

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah because Canonical has something to do with kernel development?

absolutely....buggy BIOS's are the problem

[Chirs]

If the BIOS reports ASPM it'll be used. If it doesn't, then Linux can't assume that it works.

Re:absolutely....buggy BIOS's are the problem

[kvvbassboy]

Yes, but apparently a lot of the time the BIOS doesn't report ASPM even if it does support. You are right in that Linux can't assume anything, but OEMs are aware of it.

Re:absolutely....buggy BIOS's are the problem

[hedwards]

And this sort of thing really ought to be used to slap MS upside the head for behaving irresponsibly. Years back when ACPI was first coming out and a significant number of motherboard models were shipped with a broken DSDT that would only function with Windows. The company creating the firmware didn't care and MS had the money to work around the problem leaving Windows the only platform that would work correctly.

MS could have solved the problem by refusing to implement work arounds, but opted to go out of its way to work around broken implementations rather than force the devs to program the DSDT correctly.

Re:absolutely....buggy BIOS's are the problem

[93 Escort Wagon]

And this sort of thing really ought to be used to slap MS upside the head for behaving irresponsibly.

Wow, I knew someone would find a way to blame Microsoft for this... but so early in the thread - well done! Hey, there's a little girl missing in the Los Angeles area - could you find a way to blame Microsoft for her disappearance as well?

It's like the "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" game, but for Linux fanboys!

Re:absolutely....buggy BIOS's are the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

I sort of agree with the gp. HOWEVER, MS is never going to do things like that. They take backwards compatibility and compatibility *very* seriously. They go out of their way to make their software work on every x86 box out there... They are not going to worry about others or the health of the whole eco system. They are going to make it work on the largest amount of systems out there. They actually take a much more relaxed attitude than linux does about it. It is 'just make it work' dont worry if it is 'correct'. As the guy who just dropped 50k on a rack of machines is not going to care about 'correct' he wants it to 'just work'.

Re:absolutely....buggy BIOS's are the problem

[mabhatter654]

Um.. The "Halloween Documents"?

That was a series of leaked emails from 1999-ish where Microsoft had discussed that hardware was "too standard" so actually encouraged this as a way for OEMs that sell finished systems to look better... And to spike the budding Open Source as well.

Intel happily chipped in because the pushed specs like USB where every device can be super cheap... And controlled by the CPU... all those $39 printers, winmodems, GMA900, etc all sucked up CPU so Intel could sell more... And all those devices that used to be independant now were tied to windows.

The net effect was that all the device makers were spending time making the cheapest devices, and driver writers were spending all their time fighting windows.. And everybody else's drivers. It was simply impractical to support anything else.

Re:absolutely....buggy BIOS's are the problem

[hedwards]

It's pretty well established that the ACPI implementation that MS was using with Win XP was non-standard. The one that folks had access to wouldn't compile the DSDTs that were coming with a lot of the computers because they were buggy and non-standard. MS had the advantage of controlling the only validation program that mattered and could hard code into their OS the bits necessary to work with the most common bugs.

Unfortunately for Linux, *BSD and everybody else, those coders didn't have access to that information and had to go to a huge amount of work to rewrite the DSDT and load that so that it would work as the standard specify.

Also, nice ad hominem you've got there, I am not a Linux fanboy,

Re:absolutely....buggy BIOS's are the problem

[Lehk228]

seems to me that such features could be set up using a function probing tool that tested the function of each command and logged it so they system could know what does work, what does not work, and what crashes the system, submit results back to t he repository and linux will have a more complete and accurate database than windows has (include information on lower value probabilistic errors rather than just does/does not work, warn the user when yea this model is supposed to work but there is a 1/2000 chance each time it is called of crashing instead of working.

Re:absolutely....buggy BIOS's are the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

MS has been looking ways to prevent using linux with PC's. Is this "feature" intentioned?
And now MS is designing new secure bios which will lock out most of linux distributions?

Re:absolutely....buggy BIOS's are the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, nice ad hominem you've got there, I am not a Linux fanboy,

You may not be, but you are wildly ignorant about standards compliance and the practicalities of actually shipping a product reliant on third-parties. Claiming MS can force vendors to fix bugs shows you've never been involved in such a business relationship.

Intel?

[oldhack]

Why use Intel icon when it's a Linux issue?

Re:Intel?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a motherboard issue. BIOS supports ASPM but doesn't advertise it => Linux doesn't try using hardware that isn't there => power usage goes up => Linux gets blamed. Fucking Microsoft.

Re:Intel?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck. I should've logged in to post that. Delicious karma ;_;

Re:Intel?

[Anonymous Coward]

BIOS? There's your problem. It's time to move to some pre-boot/firmware environment that wasn't outdated 20 years ago. If you did you could just go set the ASPM flag even if the motherboard manufacturer forgot, and this would only be a problem if your nvram was reset and you didn't notice.

Re:Intel?

[Anonymous Coward]

We should still try to fix it. I don't care who is to blame, just that it gets fixed as soon as possible. If there are large number of computers eating power unnecessarily, and we can do something to it, please do it immediately.

Re:Intel?

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. Do AMD systems suffer from the same problem?

Re:Intel?

[JasterBobaMereel]

ASPM is implemented incorrectly in many motherboards, either fails to advertise it supports it when it does, or advertises it supports it when it doesn't

MS have worked around the issue rather than getting the manufacturers to fix it .. so now everyone else has to follow suit ...

I suspect MS do it wrong on a few systems, but no-one notices because everyone else does it wrong as well

Blame the MB, Bios manufacturers for not caring about quality, and blame MS for not using the clout they have to force people to do it right ...

blah

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell this to my busted PC, thx alot

acpi_osi="Windows 2006" ?

[Anonymous Coward]

And this sort of thing really ought to be used to slap MS upside the head for behaving irresponsibly. Years back when ACPI was first coming out and a significant number of motherboard models were shipped with a broken DSDT that would only function with Windows. The company creating the firmware didn't care and MS had the money to work around the problem leaving Windows the only platform that would work correctly.

MS could have solved the problem by refusing to implement work arounds, but opted to go out of its way to work around broken implementations rather than force the devs to program the DSDT correctly.

I thought setting acpi_osi="Windows 2006" and such took care of most problems. (And Linux set the value as "Windows 2001" by default.)

Re:acpi_osi="Windows 2006" ?

[hedwards]

No, that only worked in cases where the Windows DSDT was standards compliant, much of the time even that didn't. I've done that in the past and it doesn't guarantee you any improvement as MS wasn't validating the DSDT against the official Intel implementation that everybody else had access to.

Nice, that some jackass with mod points felt the need to mod me down without bothering to understand the issue though.

Why bother?

[msobkow]

The marginal performance improvements you get by tweaking kernel settings will not make one whit of difference to the average user unless there is a glaring performance issue like the power drain currently being discussed.

Grandma isn't going to install Linux on her laptop -- you are. And as the technically knowledgeable person, you should be doing any such tweaking. Other systems have the benefit of the OEM doing the tweaking and tuning, but it does get done by somebody. Don't blame Linux for not doing something automagically that other systems don't do, either.

"...most linux development is primarily focused on servers..."

I don't believe that's true. While server tweaks get the press, there is a lot of effort put into the desktop experience as well. You're just far more likely to hear about kernel tweaks that are useful for desktop performance from the "real time systems" people.

Re:Why bother?

[Anonymous Coward]

Grandma isn't going to install Linux on her laptop -- you are. And as the technically knowledgeable person, you should be doing any such tweaking.

yeah coz we've got all the time in the world to learn/remember this stuff ontop of all the other stuff we're trying to keep up with.

Re:Why bother?

[martin-boundary]

No, but if you love your grandma, then you prioritize her over some other stuff...

Re:Why bother?

[jhol13]

Well, Linux then clearly does not pass "nerd" test either. Or perhaps I am not nerd enough. Anyway I do not even know most of the "tweaking" parameters, and I could not care less. I just want it to work.

Re:Why bother?

[Haedrian]

Grandma isn't going to install Linux on her laptop -- you are. .

Grandparents are incapable of installing anything which isn't an adware-ridden mess.

Its actually quite amazing that they can't set up anyhting else.

Re:Why bother?

[maztuhblastah]

Well, Linux then clearly does not pass "nerd" test either. Or perhaps I am not nerd enough. Anyway I do not even know most of the "tweaking" parameters, and I could not care less. I just want it to work.

Fair enough.

So go get yourself a new laptop, replace the drive and install Windows.

Ah, ah, ah. No. Don't install those drivers or that update from the OEM's site! That's a tweak. We're trying to be fair here. No tweaking. Just the OS.

Ok, so now that you've got it installed, you might be wondering why power management isn't as good and why some of the hardware doesn't work the way it used to.

Now you know my frustration with Windows. I don't know most of the "tweaking" parameters, and I could not care less. I just want it to work.

Re:Why bother?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have a year old bit of hardware any modern version of Windows will grab almost all of the drivers or tweaks as you say for you off the internet or disk automaticly. No 'tweaking' needed.

Re:Why bother?

[Urkki]

No, but if you love your grandma, then you prioritize her over some other stuff...

Yes, prioritise spending time with your grandma over troubleshooting her Linux installation... Be responsible, don't install Linux!

Re:Why bother?

[Pharmboy]

"...most linux development is primarily focused on servers..."

I don't believe that's true.

Be serious. The overwhelming majority of the install base is on the server, you can't really believe that majority of the development isn't as well. There are a number of good reasons why most development is on the server, not the least of which is that because Linux is more difficult to configure initially but is arguably easy to maintain once configured, and while 10% of the desktop installers are nerds, 100% of the server installers are nerds, making it less of an issue.

There are a lot of people throwing resources at the Linux desktop, to be sure, but most of the resources ARE for Linux as a server. Even programs like Apache, which can run on Windows, are primarily developed for Linux and to a lesser degree, FreeBSD. Linux desktop is a moving target (primarily because of the GUI) but Linux on the server isn't that much different than it was 10 or 15 years ago, just better like the hardware.

Even Redhat and IBM aren't that serious about the desktop at this stage, and they are the largest supporters of Linux in the corporate world. Most of their resources surely go into the server side, not the desktop side.

Re:Why bother?

[jones_supa]

Not necessarily so. With some machines you don't have to do anything, with some you really do have to grab a bunch of stuff from the OEM website. It still varies.

Re:Why bother?

[mcgrew]

It's not just Grandma, but uncle and nephew as well. Being old doesn't make one ignorant, failure to want to learn does. Take it from a 59 year old Linux-using nerd who has folks in their 20s asking me to help them with their computers.

Re:Why bother?

[mcgrew]

WTF? Your FUD is just plain wrong. A Linux install is easier and takes far less time than debugging her virus-ridden Windows install, especially if Windows is so screwed it requires a reinstall. The last Windows install I did was XP and it was a royal pain in the ass and VERY time consuming.

When Granny's PC will no longer boot, a Linux install will give you far more time to spend with Granny than Windows will. And once it's installed it's not likely to need any more work until you have a hardware failure.

Getting Linux installed on a machine without optical disks isn't easy, though. I'm still trying to get either kubuntu or Mandriva on this Acer subnotebook and almost ruined a $40 thumb drive -- Win 7 coulfn't read it. Fortunately all I had to do was insert it in the big computer and Linux fixed it with no problems. Still can't get it installed (yet - I did it on an earlier machine like this one, so I'll get it).

But on a desktop or full notebook with a CD or DVD, installing Linux is quick, easy, and painless. Far easier than a Windows install.

I miss DOS; an OS install was simply COPY A:\*.* C:\

Re:Why bother?

[Urkki]

Well, actually I mostly agree, except with the special (but unfortunately not too uncommon) case of having a laptop with a poorly supported WLAN chipset needing a closed driver... Often leading to the all-too-common dilemma of needing Internet access to get Internet access... My above post was specifically in relation to TFA, and how it demonstrates, if you install Linux, be preparted to Google for solutions to obscure problems, or be satisfied with poor performance and bad rep for Linux.

About installing Linux... I've successfully used http://goodbye-microsoft.com/ on top of XP, at least.

Re:Why bother?

[amazon10x]

Use http://www.pendrivelinux.com/downloads/Universal-USB-Installer/Universal-USB-Installer.exe which ubuntu recommends, or use unetbootin.

You wouldn't be complaining if you've ever tried to install Windows XP from a usb drive. It's nearly impossible (I've never succeeded). I think it's better with win7 now.

Re:Why bother?

[diego.viola]

Getting Linux installed on a machine without optical disks is very easy. All you have to do is grab a Linux ISO image (installer or live cd) and dd the ISO file to a USB flash drive.

e.g.

> dd if=/dev/linux.iso of=/dev/sdb

(assuming that /dev/sdb is your USB flash drive)

Then reboot the computer, hit F8 (depending on your BIOS) and boot from the USB flash drive.

I can't recall when was the last time I used optical media, USB flash drive FTW.

Re:Why bother?

[jhol13]

Windows??? What it has to do with the problem (Linux does not work)?

solutions:

[Gravis Zero]

- replace BIOS (perhaps demand that the manufacturer update it)
- create a large (online) database of MBs (best identified by a list of hardware) that support ASPM and check it upon installation

Re:solutions:

[DarwinSurvivor]

One of the HUGE advantages of linux (and other *nix derivatives) is the ability to seamlessly move the OS from one machine to another without having to make ANY changes. The only exception is moving from nvidia to ati video cards (or vise-versa), but the OS will still boot. These "check at install time" fixes are very dangerous to that huge feature. You guys are actually demanding a software fix to a firmware bug. Absolutely unbelievable...

Re:solutions:

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the HUGE advantages of linux (and other *nix derivatives) is the ability to seamlessly move the OS from one machine to another without having to make ANY changes.

Since when? I've tried this and it has never worked.

You guys are actually demanding a software fix to a firmware bug. Absolutely unbelievable...

As opposed to a non-software fix to a firmware bug? Isn't firmware software? And yes most people just want this to work rather than this stupid blame game. Gee, imagine that, huh?

Re:solutions:

[Urkki]

I think affected users are demanding a fix for a bug. They won't much care what the fix is or where the bug is, they just want their po... email on the go.

Solution to your "move from one machine to another" thing would be to tie certain settings to certain hardware signature. If signature changes, revert settings to safe values at boot. It would be a very useful thing to have overall, until the happy day comes when there are no hardware or firmware or software bugs in the world.

Also, apparently there is a software fix to this particular issue: replace the OS with something which works with the hardware ;)

Re:solutions:

[Shoe Puppet]

One of the HUGE advantages of linux (and other *nix derivatives) is the ability to seamlessly move the OS from one machine to another without having to make ANY changes. The only exception is moving from nvidia to ati video cards (or vise-versa), but the OS will still boot. These "check at install time" fixes are very dangerous to that huge feature.

You could check it at the beginning of every boot. If the setting was correct, continue. If it wasn't, automatically change it and reboot if necessary.

Re:solutions:

[badkarmadayaccount]

And increase boot time? How about buying decent hardware?

Re:solutions:

[Shoe Puppet]

And increase boot time?

I don't think checking the MB against the list takes much time at all. Having to reboot does take longer, but should be rare.

Re:solutions:

[badkarmadayaccount]

This list will be enormous. You'll need PostgreSQL to handle it. Lots of IO. On every. Boot. I say - OEMs fix the shit that's broken.

If They Don't Fix it I am Switching

[Quantum_Infinity]

They have been playing the blame game. Seriously though, I don't care whether it's an upstream issue or a downstream issue, 30% increase in power consumption is pretty big issue no matter what the reason. That's the reason why I am still on Ubuntu 10.10 and haven't upgraded. If they don't fix this before the support window runs out for 10.10 I am switching to something else (maybe even Windows). I use laptop on my battery all the time (in the bathroom, at the library, coffee shop etc.). A 30% reduction in battery life would seriously affect me.

Re:If They Don't Fix it I am Switching

[kvvbassboy]

Try using Jupiter (http://www.jupiterapplet.org/). It's not there in the repos, but there is a ppa available for it: https://launchpad.net/~webupd8team/+archive/jupiter .

Re:If They Don't Fix it I am Switching

[Anonymous Coward]

And the problem with using pcie_aspm=force" is what exactly?

Re:If They Don't Fix it I am Switching

[Quantum_Infinity]

Even though I have used Linux for several years now and am capable of using 'pcie_aspm=force' to get around the issue, I just don't like having to tweak to get around an issue that I expect should not be there in the first place. Tweaking to improve your desktop experience is one thing but tweaking to get around a kernel issue, Linux is too mature now to expect the user to do it.

Re:If They Don't Fix it I am Switching

[DarwinSurvivor]

How long do you SPEND in the bathroom...?

Re:If They Don't Fix it I am Switching

[Anonymous Coward]

I hear what you're saying and I agree that it's far less than ideal to expect users to have to do things like this (fingers crossed that this can be fixed properly), most would have no idea that this option exists or even how to use it. Having said that you know about the workaround and how to apply it, is it really worth switching out an OS for something that you yourself can easily work around?

Re:If They Don't Fix it I am Switching

[ttong]

Would you install your vendors driver CD on a fresh windows installation?

Re:If They Don't Fix it I am Switching

[PixetaledPikachu]

It didn't work for me. Maverick consistently gave me more than 3 hours on my vaio e, while natty barely reached 1 and a half hours

Re:If They Don't Fix it I am Switching

[Anonymous Coward]

tweaking to get around a kernel issue

This is exactly why people could care less about your problem because its YOUR problem. This is NOT a kernel issue. Contrary to bullshit of the morons around us, its absolutely NOT a regression in any way. 100% of the problem stems from BIOS manufacturer and/or OEM BUGS. What you're blaming on the kernel is in fact, absolutely NOT a kernel bug in any way. The kernel is acting EXACTLY as it should based on what the BIOS/OEM is telling it. Which means you have exactly three options. One, get a driver from your BIOS manufacturer/OEM which by its very nature knows the BIOS lies about the hardware/BIOS combination and forces the flag on your behalf. Two, manually work around the bug FORCED by the BIOS; via 'force' option. Three, bitch, complain, and blame everyone else, while looking like a complete jackass, except, of course, the party who is actually to blame.

Unless you've called or emails your BIOS/OEM manufacturer, shut the fuck up and manually make the change. No one wants to hear how dumb and lazy your are and how you're so unintelligent you insist on blaming the wrong party when its been repeatedly explained.

Get a better grandma

[Anonymous Coward]

Some people have a grandma with a PhD in Engineering, who probably designed parts of that laptop. The problem isn't with Linux, it's with your grandma.

Until

[Anonymous Coward]

Until Linux is able to handle ASPM in a manner more like Windows

Translated: "Until Linux can catch up with Windows..."

A phrase that will make many a head explode, for sure.

Re:Until

[21mhz]

It's more about being quirk-for-quirk compatible with Windows.

Never noticed any problems...

[Anonymous Coward]

I never noticed any problems. When the processor is under load, the fans spin up, and when it becomes less busy, they slow down. I run an old Core I7-920 (but not on a laptop). Everything has been working fine.

Grandma Test??

[jampola]

Firstly, your logic is with the assumption that Granny uses a laptop. My Dad uses Linux on his Desktop (he has a Laptop also). He is not technically proficient like you claim to be. He has no idea what ASPM or GRUB is. Dad used to use Windows but he could not understand why one day he had some count down box mysteriously appear on his screen (blaster) or why he needs to apply patches or service packs that also seemly make his screen blue. He also had no idea why he needed to pay to upgrade his anti-virus just because he upgraded his OS. My Dad gets aggravated quite easily because he likes that he can turn on his computer and it works. I spent a month talking him around to giving Linux a shot. This was 4 years ago and he is still running the same Debian install on the same PC. Not bad for someone who is not only a Grand Pa but also 70 years old! You're saying that because of some power bug in the Kernel makes the OS fail your "Grandma Test" is a stupid logic and it is broken. Can you honestly say that with all the problems that Windows has had over the years make it Grandma Friendly?? I am not hatting on Windows, just your stupid Logic.

Re:Grandma Test??

[jampola]

Also worth noting for jokes sake that after installing Debian for him, he asked "Do I need these CD's?" pointing at a pile of driver CD's that came with the computer and I responded "No Dad, the drivers are compiled into the Kernel" to which he responded "So the same guy who makes the chicken also makes Linux?..." Moral of the story is that Dad jokes rule!

Karma?

[jampola]

You know what, karma being the slut that it is, you would have logged in and gotten nothing!

Jupiter...

[Anonymous Coward]

Careful! It's Mono!

Re:Jupiter...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh noes, not MONO! Fuck off freetard.

Linux, userland power manager or Ubuntu?

[aglider]

Is the bug in Linux kernel? Then you won't ket any fix from Ubuntu!
Is the bug in the userland power manager? Then don't blame the kernel and don't expect any news from Ubuntu!
Is the bug in the Ubuntu packaging? Blame Ubuntu.
So the question is: where the bug actually is?

Re:Linux, userland power manager or Ubuntu?

[indeterminator]

So the question is: where the bug actually is?

In the motherboard BIOS. But for some reason, no one here is demanding an update from mobo vendors... why?

Re:Linux, userland power manager or Ubuntu?

[mollymoo]

Ubuntu regularly ship with patched versions of stuff to fix annoyances like this from upstream. That's why I switched from Debian, who avoid patching upstream even if it means things are a bit broken. The Debian way in theory leads to better software in the long-run, which is good, but I want my machines to work now

If you want a specific example, the DHCP client Debian used doesn't have an option to send the system hostname - you had to manually enter the hostname into the configuration file. This annoyed me every single time I set up a Debian box and bit me in the ass every time I changed the hostname. Ubuntu used the same DHCP client but patched it so it sent the system hostname by default. That bug still is still open on Debian's bug tracker 9 years after it was first reported.

Re:Linux, userland power manager or Ubuntu?

[aglider]

It's not a BIOS bug as long as there's some other way (Windogs?) to cope with it.

Re:Linux, userland power manager or Ubuntu?

[aglider]

I don't know how much work Ubuntu does on upstream stuff, being it Debian or original.
What I know is that I can get a number of bugs in Ubuntu which are not present in Debian or original.
But I can also see improvements.

ACPI is a disaster

[Anonymous Coward]

This is another example of why ACPI is COMPLETE CRAP. ACPI is absolutely the most disgusting piece of IT Technology ever designed and implemented.

ACPI is a badly designed solution to a problem that shouldn't exist.
Power Management should be controlled by communicating only with the PCI(e) devices (PCI Configuration Space), not the deranged and inevitably badly written BIOS.
ACPI is used to control the power button on x86 PCs. How completely stupid and over-engineered. Why not simply extend the keyboard controller (8042) or create a standardised PCI bus device?

I can only pray that ARM computers do NOT implement ACPI.

How come Windows manages it right then?

[Anonymous Coward]

And, your "f'ing Microsoft" comment - what's that got to do with anything here? MS does it right, Linux doesn't: Case closed!

APK

P.S.=> The main thing is, who uses Linux on laptops?? Its "niche", as far as mindshare/marketshare amongst users &/or companies, happens to be MOSTLY servers (because it's FREE for init. purchase cost, keeping costs down)

Now - on that note/merit alone? Hey - IF Linux WERE AS GOOD AS WINDOWS SERVER, overall, it should have wiped MS out, & YEARS AGO...

However, as anyone can see? Linux hasn't taken the "top spot"/#1 most used OS (in fact, it's last on PC's & Servers combined).

Yes, even with the backing of the likes of IBM, Oracle, & Novell - MS' "main competitors" no less!

(That ALL tell anyone ANYTHING here? Like Linux's NOT QUITE AS GOOD AS WINDOWS?? Sorry, it does me, & facts are FACTS!)

Now - I've used both for long stretches, & though Linux is decent, it's FAR from Windows on many accounts (e.g.-> device drivers, available mainstream apps, more unpatched bugs in its kernel alone than nearly ALL of what MS offers users/businesses to do development & business with, games, & more))...

Plus, all the "Linux is more secure" b.s. spread around here especially on THIS forums? Heh - security by obscurity/lack of widespread usage was the illusion being perpetrated obviously (because Linux wasn't used that much, & thus, it's NOT as attractive a target to malware makers/hacker-cracker types as Windows is, because those types are after your MONEY & INFORMATION online nowadays, not just to "wreak havoc" on your system)...

That b.s. went out the Windows with ANDROID showing how "security swiss cheese" Linux truly is, once it gains widespread usage...

Still - Once the problem's understood though, & it sounds as if it is? The Penguins will figure it out & compensate (hopefully)

... apk

Re:How come Windows manages it right then?

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, wow. Could you be any more obviously astroturfing? Linux is showing up OEMs for the lazy cunts they are, and I guess they don't like that very much. Instead of demanding the OEMs fix this, you use it as an excuse to wave the Windows flag around a bit? I don't get it.

We can learn from Krusty

[Anonymous Coward]

We should consider good enough solutions in the face of not being able to find a perfect solution.

A good enough solution for this is:
1. To create a publicly accessible online database of the most popular hardware compatible with this ASPM thing.
2. To make the most popular distros to automatically request this database, and automatically set that option properly.

This is good enough because it would cover normal people with normal hardware; that means 80% of people with hardware.

The remaining 20% would be composed by:
- Those who don't use the most popular distros. Nevertheless 95% of these people will be able to do the hack manually.
- Those who don't use the most popular hardware.
- Those who don't have Internet access.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_good_enough

Anonymous reader?

[Roadmaster]

I'm not so sure about this. I enabled the fix as proposed by Phoronix and saw a 15% battery life improvement; I'm now getting almost 5 hours, which is pretty good for this system.But 15% was not "significant" really. So "to regain much of their battery life" seems like an exaggeration in par with the alarmist tone of the articles in Phoronix. Sure, there's a problem, and I certainly appreciate Phoronix's efforts to pinpoint the cause and offer a workaround, but it's certainly not as bad as they've been making it look.

if i had hackles

[Anonymous Coward]

they would surely rise when i read the phrase "in a manner more like Window$". there is only one way?

It just goes to show you that

[Anonymous Coward]

Serious incentive's behind commercialware closed-source quality from MS (good enough to beat FREE in the overall marketplace - Which makes no sense if you *think* about it, but... there we are! Proof's in the pudding/argue with the #'s...).

* I'm also FAR from "astroturfing" (whatever the hell that really means, these dimwitted new-fangled terms sometimes sound quite stupid): I am just telling it how it is, based on experience (coming up on 30 yrs. of overall time in computing on a # of grounds).

APK

P.S.=> I think you missed the part where I noted I have used Linux (KUbuntu 10x @ least) & it's alright, does the job for most things, just not as good @ windows is some areas I noted/liisted... I know Linux enough to have made the comments I did above (been using Linux on/off since 1994 in Slackware 1.02 in fact).

However - by the SAME TOKEN?

I can, & did, also make my assessments on Windows being better on a # of valid grounds & why as to what I listed on that account in my last reply, is all - you may not LIKE it, but, there you are...

(Lastly/in closing/summation/bottom-line: Trust me, I could have put down a lot more "Anti_Linux" stuff, & from reputable sources, + on other grounds and so much of it, that you (or any other Penguin) would hate what I wrote, a LOT more...

... apk

Re:It just goes to show you that

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm also FAR from "astroturfing"

lol ... of course you're not ... heh

Re:Windows a big part of the problem too

[Billly Gates]

It was posted 10 years ago on slashdot that MS dictated to all the hardware manufactures that this is the way Windows 2000/XP kernel does APM. Go fix your bios because we aint changing it! Almost paraphrased word by word with buggy ACPI and APM. So because people still run XP, the bios has to work around a Windows specific bug.

It is a two way street when more than manufactor owns the software and a different owns the hardware. Bugs are on both sides and both have 30 years of errata and bugs that emulate off of each other in order to function. Linux sadly, has to produce Windows specific bugs in order to have APM work properly as all the hardware makers care about is Microsoft.

I hate the MS bashing here more than anyone as I prefer MS more and more these days. But it is deserved here. What are you going to do if you are Dell with a great APM but XP doesn't work the way it was designed to spec? Say no, big bad MS our bios is fine go fix XP with a service pack? Imagine how their customers would feel? Would they blame Microsoft? I think not. They would blame Dell and go buy HPs etc.

So Dell reflashes their bios so MS doesn't have to fix their bug etc.

Both Linus and Alan Cox have said this numerous times and is one of the reasons people want to switch to EFI. The bios has 30 years of fixes, updates to bugs, and other nasties. I only assume the Windows kernel does the same exact things to bugs from the 1980s that are there for compatiblity reasons. Shudder

Security vulnerabilities unpatched

[Anonymous Coward]

1st - Linux also doesn't have as high quality drivers or as many because board makers KNOW what is "running the show/market " out there, Windows - so, they cater to it immensely!

2nd - Nor does Linux have as many games, by FAR, either (this is mostly the home market in fact!)

3rd - Not only that. but Linux, in its KERNEL ONLY mind you? Has 4x the unpatched security vulnerabilities Windows 7 has (which IS a complete "distro" with all of its parts, not just a kernel only)!

4th - Despite all those "Open 'SORES'" eyes (most of whom couldn't code to SAVE THEIR LIVES mind you) allegedly poring over Linux code, how come it has that many more unpatched bugs than Windows 7 has, hmmm??

Closed source is HARDER for hacker/crackers to attack as well, because you're stuck either disassembling it (especially tough with kernel level debuggers) OR fuzzing it, either is tougher than searching out problems in Linux, which you just load into a compiler & step trace its "Open 'SORES'" code with to find screwups in security... hence it still has more security bugs, AND, they are unpatched (despite all the "Open 'SORES'" eyes poring over it, lol!)

Fact, period!

5th - In fact, Linux's kernel ALONE has 4x the # of unpatched bugs the ENTIRE SUITE/ARRAY OF WHAT MICROSOFT GIVES YOU TO DO BUSINESS & DEVELOPMENT WITH!

Proof? Ok:

This data's ALL from a respected source (secunia.com) for known security vulnerabilities unpatched:

---

Vulnerability Report: Microsoft SQL Server 2008: (10/11/2011)

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/21744/

Unpatched 0% (0 of 1 Secunia advisories)

Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Internet Information Services (IIS) 7.x: (10/11/2011)

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/17543/

Unpatched 0% (0 of 6 Secunia advisories)

Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Exchange Server 2010: (10/11/2011)

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/28234/

Unpatched 0% (0 of 0 Secunia advisories)

Vulnerability Report: Microsoft SharePoint Server 2010: (10/11/2011)

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/29809/

Unpatched 0% (0 of 3 Secunia advisories)

Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Forefront Endpoint Protection 2010: (10/11/2011)

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/34343/

Unpatched 0% (0 of 1 Secunia advisories)

Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Baseline Security Analyzer 2.x: (10/11/2011):

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/6436/

Unpatched 0% (0 of 0 Secunia advisories)

Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Office 2010: (10/11/2011)

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/30529/?task=advisories

Unpatched 0% (0 of 9 Secunia advisories)

Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Project 2010: (10/11/2011)

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/31177/

Unpatched 0% (0 of 0 Secunia advisories)

Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Windows Services for UNIX 3.x: (10/11/2011)

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/5244/

Unpatched 0% (0 of 3 Secunia advisories)

Vulnerability Report: Microsoft Internet Explorer 9.x: (10/11/2011)

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/34591/

Unpatched 0% (0 of 3 Secunia advisories)

Vulnerability Report: Microsoft