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Ask Slashdot: Which License For School Products?

Reader TheodoreQSwiss breaks onto the page with this question: "The independent school where I serve as Dir. of Technology is in the middle of reworking their employee handbooks and would like to include a section on ownership of the intellectual property produced by employees of the school while doing work for the school. Ideally, both the school and the creator(s) would be able to retain rights to the use of the product. Do you have any recommendations on licenses that would support both parties involved?"

37 of 56 comments (clear)

  1. yeah... by planimal · · Score: 1

    the WTFPL license. the only license anybody ever needs

  2. First CC! by Stormwatch · · Score: 1

    Look into the Creative Commons system.

    1. Re:First CC! by Roger_Wilco · · Score: 2

      Creative Commons *is* a copyright license.

      This is how you copyright a work: write it. Done!

      Now no one can distribute it without your permission (except as allowed by fair use). You can give them permission to use it in certain ways using a new or pre-existing license, like CC (or GPL). There is no "conflict" between copyright and creative commons; quite the contrary, CC depends on (C). The GPL does too, as RMS has pointed out more than a few times.

    2. Re:First CC! by yuna49 · · Score: 1

      Registration with the Copyright Office is not required to copyright a creative work in the United States. Simply adding the usual "Copyright, 2011, Jennifer Author" is all that is needed (17 USC 401). If, however, you wish to bring suit for infringement, you are not entitled to statutory damages or attorneys' fees unless the work is registered (see 17 USC 412). Registered works must be deposited with the Library of Congress which encourages authors to share their works through this enormous public archive.

    3. Re:First CC! by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 1

      Actually, it looks like notice may be useful but not be required. (Though consult an atty. if this matters to you, obviously).

        401. Notice of copyright: Visually perceptible copies2 ...

      (d) Evidentiary Weight of Notice. — If a notice of copyright in the form and position specified by this section appears on the published copy or copies to which a defendant in a copyright infringement suit had access, then no weight shall be given to such a defendant's interposition of a defense based on innocent infringement in mitigation of actual or statutory damages, except as provided in the last sentence of section 504(c)(2).

      --
      -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
    4. Re:First CC! by ideonexus · · Score: 1

      Sorry... There seems to be some confusion from my poorly-worded post. I know that CCing your work copyrights it, but registering with the Library of Congress implements a traditional copyright, without the flexibility of a CC license... those are two conflicting licenses and the conflict has not been resolved in the courts yet.

      --
      i ~ Celebrating Science, Cyberspace, Speculation
  3. From an RMS fanboy by gringer · · Score: 1

    Intellectual Property, like Cloud Computing, is a nebulous term. It covers at least three distinct areas: trademark law, copyright law, and patent law.

    --
    Ask me about repetitive DNA
  4. ask a attorney or the school legal contact by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    ask a attorney or the school legal contact.

    1. Re:ask a attorney or the school legal contact by rtfa-troll · · Score: 2

      Attourney's cool useful and all that. However, you probably want to have a vision of what you want to achieve. The right attourney will then be able to help you do it.

      Schools should be about developing and spreading open knowledge. Things like the CC-BY-SA and AGPLv3 licenses are probably very suitable for this. However, in some areas you will find that you want to collaborate with others. You will want flexibility to change from the default when required.

      On the other hand, look at the story of NCSA Mosaic, where NCSA invented the web browser but then was forced out of the market by closed systems such as Netscape and Microsoft Internet Explorer. Insisting on a strong copyleft license is quite important to ensuring that future derivatives of the work continue to be fully accessible to your school.

      Probably what you would want to do is allow CC-SA-BY for texts and AGPLv3 for software by default and allow other licenses as agreed exceptions.

      Your lawyer can now tell you how to make an agreement between the School and it's employees which will support that aim.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
  5. The School owns it, generally by SpiralSpirit · · Score: 1

    When an employee makes a discovery/work/patent/etc in their capacity as an employee, usually the employer own that IP.

    1. Re:The School owns it, generally by gandhi_2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And what of the tax-payers who funded it?

      If you created it while on the clock for the public, the public should own it.

    2. Re:The School owns it, generally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "independent school" -- maybe that means non-public...?

    3. Re:The School owns it, generally by SpiralSpirit · · Score: 1

      this comes up all the time. go look at any university's IP disclaimers. If you invented it in your role as an employee, they own it. It doesn't matter who funds the school - the school funds you.

    4. Re:The School owns it, generally by hedwards · · Score: 1

      That's not true, that's only true if you create the materials on their time, otherwise you own it, not the school. Unless the school is giving the OP time off in which to create the materials or is paying overtime, the proper owner of the materials would be the employee. Otherwise it's a pretty blatant violation of the FLSA.

      In this case, it sounds like the school is paying for the materials to be developed and as such it's going to be work for hire unless both parties agree to something else.

    5. Re:The School owns it, generally by bcrowell · · Score: 1

      this comes up all the time. go look at any university's IP disclaimers. If you invented it in your role as an employee, they own it. It doesn't matter who funds the school - the school funds you.

      Sloppy analogy. Patents are not the most common case of IP at the K-12 level, and at the university level there are other types of IP that are *not* owned by the school. For example, the school does not own the textbook that a professor writes.

    6. Re:The School owns it, generally by bcrowell · · Score: 1

      That's not true, that's only true if you create the materials on their time, otherwise you own it, not the school. Unless the school is giving the OP time off in which to create the materials or is paying overtime, the proper owner of the materials would be the employee.

      Neither university teachers nor K-12 teachers are factory workers who punch a clock. They are professionals who basically manage themselves and set a lot of their own work hours. This makes "on their time" a vague concept, and that's why I believe no schools actually use that as a criterion. Typically the teacher owns what the teacher writes, and the school owns any patents.

    7. Re:The School owns it, generally by crimoid · · Score: 1

      You are correct.

  6. what level school? Which Country? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The precedent is very different between, say, a K-5 elementary school and a research university. Rules are different in different countries.

    Employee handbooks are almost never contracts, by the way. You need an explicit written agreement between employer and employee.

    Assuming you mean K-12 school in the US... Is there a union contract? that might be relevant.

    In general, works produced "in the course of your employment" are "works for hire" and belong to the employer, however, there are tricky aspects. For instance, you have to have an explicit patent assignment agreement (which often requires "consideration" for the assignment to be a valid separate contract, hence the traditional one dollar payment for the assignment). There's also tricky aspects when the employees are non exempt (hourly) vs exempt. If you're working at home, off the clock, you own what you produce, no matter if it happens to be aligned with what your employer's line of business is. However, if you use any of the employer's resources (trade secrets, tools, materials, etc.), the employer may automatically get what's called a "shop right" (a non-exclusive, non-transferable right to use it). resources, here, can mean things like that employer provided email account, by the way. If you're exempt (i.e. your pay does not depend on how many hours you work, etc) it's a bit more tricky, because theoretically, you're never "off the clock".

    If your teachers are "independent contractors" then it's a whole lot more complex. You need an explicit agreement.

    Summary: decide, in plain English, what you want. Hie thee to an attorney who knows about this stuff, and have them draw up an agreement. Have your employees execute the agreement. Don't try to do self-help by using some off the shelf agreement, because inevitably, you'll miss some important part. Take the off the shelf agreement to the attorney as an example, by all means.

      Hey, if you're worried only about stuff YOU produce, you can use any agreement you want (GPL, CC, etc) because you, and only you, will bear the consequences of that decision. But you're talking about what a large number of people will do, and the last thing YOU want to be doing is sitting in depositions giving sworn testimony about how you didn't seek legal counsel and that's why your school is being sued for eleventy million dollars for copyright infringement.

  7. Creative Commons Licenses by chato · · Score: 2

    If you think big money can be made for the school and the creators by selling copies of this work (which is often NOT the case), then my recommendation would be to have the school be the copyright owner (it will be by default given that its employees are doing a work-for-hire), that the school enters with the employees a contract for sharing the royalties (meaning that e.g. if the school sells the rights for printing a book, it will give a certain fraction of the royalties to the author), and that the school releases the work under a Creative Commons Non-Commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

    If, on the contrary, you believe no one will make much money by selling this work, then you can have the author release the work under a Creative Commons (CC-BY) license indicating that the attribution should be given to both the creator and the school. This will allow wide dissemination of the work, will allow others to build upon it, will prevent others from making profit at your expense (someone can print and sell copies, but anyone else can do it, so if copies are sold that would be at near-cost prices), and will make sure the employee and the school get due credit.

    1. Re:Creative Commons Licenses by Machtyn · · Score: 1

      I would take a look at the history of Oregon Trail and learn from that.

  8. The handbook comes later by AmElder · · Score: 2

    There's a legal question here and an administrative one. Either way, this isn't a decision to be made and announced through the employee handbook. It's great though how you set out just to write a bit of documentation and you end up in a legal a philosophical minefield.

    The legal question is who has the right of ownership over intellectual property, such as lesson plans, that teachers produce or use on the job. I imagine the precedents vary by your jurisdiction. Your school should look it up. The way you phrase the question, it sounds as if there aren't any explicit provisions in the teacher contracts that establish who owns what. Maybe it's time for the school to include a clause in the contract that makes the expectations and the legal situation clear.

    But really the more important issue is that, again from the way you phrase your question, it sounds as if the school administration seems to expect to dictate terms of intellectual property ownership to its teachers. Regardless of whether they have the legal right to do that, it's just plain bad policy, a great way to pick an unnecessary fight. The administration should do what you're doing now, do some research and decide on a good model for a policy. Then they should bring the issue up at a faculty meeting, ask faculty what they want, give them a chance to go away and read about it, and then come back with their own proposal. Ideally, if you've got good administrators (sounds like they/you have good will, at least) who can negotiate well with faculty based on interests and not positions, then everyone leaves the room happy.

    The wrong way to do it is for you, the Director of Technology, to make the decision, present it to the rest of the administration who accept it by default because they don't have any better ideas, and let the faculty know who owns their lesson plans by putting a handbook in their mailboxes at the start of the next term. The value of the intellectual property is either too small to be worth alienating employees or too valuable to approach sloppily.

    The usual disclaimers: I'm not a lawyer or a teacher.

    1. Re:The handbook comes later by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      ask faculty what they want

      Yes -- definitely.

      Now for my personal opinion: the UK government are taking steps to legalise "format shifting" of sound recordings. Yes, ripping your own CDs to MP3 is still technically illegal. Relevance? The starting point for all legal decisions has to start with expected behaviour -- the new law formalises what is already "normal" behaviour.

      We expect teachers to store all their worksheets on their laptops, and we expect them to use them when they move on to the next job. Disallowing this will not stop them doing it, and you're never going to be able to enforce it, so banning it would only generate unnecessary ill-will.

      The expected behaviour of the school is to continue using and modifying any worksheets left by former employees. As this happens all the time, it is not unreasonable to formalise it as an agreement.

      OK, so now we get to the matter of commercial exploitation. Ask yourself, what is the expected behaviour here? Well, have you ever seen any textbooks published or "authored" by schools? Mostly they're published by specialist publishing houses, and they've got an author or two listed, but no schools are mentioned. It is highly unlikely that anyone would write a textbook 100% from scratch -- it's likely they'll use their own stock problem sets that they've used in classes before. In fact, it would be quite difficult for a teacher to write any new material without infringing the copyrights of an earlier piece on the same topic. All in all, it would seem unreasonable to me if the school were to retain commercial exploitation rights.

      Plus, it probably isn't in the school's interest to retain commercial exploitation rights, because teachers are notorious plagiarists anyway. Questions cribbed from the internet, photocopies of exam papers, articles from newspapers... no school can ever really be confident of the provinance of the material in a teacher's toolkit, so producing any commercial materials based on it is a litigation risk.

      What I would expect would be that the teacher retains full rights, but the school has the right to duplicate and modify the material for in-house use in perpetuity.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    2. Re:The handbook comes later by AmElder · · Score: 1

      Good points! I agree with everything you wrote.

      Unfortunately, in the USA (haven't found info on the UK), the law as it stands makes the default situation exactly the opposite: the school owns the copyright on most lesson plans and other IP, as other people have described in other replies. It's crazy.

      Also, I don't think anyone has suggested a good existing licensing solution that does what you're describing. A shame. Maybe the guy who posted the question will write a good license, with the school's legal council. Or maybe we'll have to live with the occasional injustice of a distance between the law and the expected behaviour until legislatures get around to solving the problem. In the US, there are proposals to change the 1976 copyright law to include an exemption for teachers.

  9. Re:Public Domain? by xlr8ed · · Score: 2

    The second word should help you out....""The independent school"

  10. Wrong question - contract trumps copyright by gilgongo · · Score: 2

    If students sign a contract with the school to say that both parties assign full rights to one another in works that they create, then it doesn't matter what copyright law says. Contract trumps copyright. That's how the music industry works, for one thing.

    --
    "And the meaning of words; when they cease to function; when will it start worrying you?"
    1. Re:Wrong question - contract trumps copyright by gilgongo · · Score: 1

      OK. So apart from the very narrow exception of Fair Use (which doesn't properly exist outside the US very much), and maybe Moral Rights in places like France, contract trumps copyright.

      In fact, can you name any significant victory of Fair Use over contract recently? The Estate of James Brown is pretty flush last I checked...

      --
      "And the meaning of words; when they cease to function; when will it start worrying you?"
  11. too broad by bcrowell · · Score: 1

    "While doing work for the school" needs to be better defined. Teachers "do work for the school" at home as well as on campus. They are professionals, and the boundary between what they are required to do and what they do because they want to is not always clear. If a teacher writes a textbook, this is not "work for the school." If a teacher writes a lesson plan, it probably is "work for the school." There is no clear boundary between these two things.

    "Ideally, both the school and the creator(s) would be able to retain rights to the use of the product." What does "use of" mean? If the teacher writes a textbook, the teacher should not just be able to "use" it in his/her own classroom, he/she should be able to sell it and exploit it commercially.

    If the principal writes an employee handbook, then clearly the employee handbook is a work made for hire, and the school should own it.

    Asking what license to use is the wrong question. If the employee owns the copyright, then the choice of license is up to the employee, not you.

  12. Obviously GPL by houghi · · Score: 2

    Not only does the school AND the creators retain the rights to use the product, but so would anybody else. Other schools can then benefit and you can benefit from their input.
    As an added bonus, nobody will be able to take away your rights to use it.

    Unless your core business is selling software (not software related business) it should be the only option.

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
  13. It depends ... by mustangdavis · · Score: 1

    I was working as a grad student (back in the day) for a Computer Science department for a major University. During that time, some friends and I created a couple of massively multiplayer web browser games ... and we made quite a bit of money doing it. We had formed our own company, but we did (initially) do a lot of the work on campus ... either in public computer labs or in dorm rooms. We eventually bought our own headquarters, and completed our first game (and created all of our second game) there. We didn't make a penny while we were working on it at the University. So ... my question to all of the slashdot community would be ... did the University have rights to it? I would say "not at all". My grad work was COMPLETELY unrelated to the work I was doing for our company, and the other partners (except 1) were all undergrads w/o scholarships. The other grad student (who was my first CS instructor .. which was ironic since I was the CEO of the company) was also doing grad work completely unrelated to our game. My point is ... MANY very creative and inovative ideas and products are produced by people that need to either finish their education or make some sort of income while they work on these projects. If rules are put in place that prevent people from enjoying the fruits of their labor, then innovation will drastically slow down. Provided that the IP you are working on isn't closely related to what your employer is paying you to do ... and provided you are using your own resources (or resources that anyone would have made available to them), then I just don't see how it would be right for someone else to take away your rights to your IP.

  14. Clarification from the OP by TheodoreQSwiss · · Score: 1

    Hi all - thanks for your responses. I'm the OP, and I wanted to add a bit for clarification:

    Currently, we have no statements in any documents regarding the creation or ownership of IP, be it lesson plans, study books, whatever. This is our first foray into it and instead of just copy-pasting someone else's boilerplate, I thought it would be a great chance to do it correctly from the get go. I know we could just go look up what others are doing, but we don't want to do that.

    By "doing work for the school," I mean, mainly, IP created during the normal work as faculty; i.e. curriculum/lesson plans, tests, handouts, study guides, even the rare times when a teacher basically makes their own textbook via years and years of teaching experience. A teacher that creates this kind of work, which most all do de facto, wouldn't have been hired by the school to create the IP, but to teach; the IP just follows as a means to do the teaching. Now we're concerned with what happens when, in this kind of situation, a teacher leaves the school and wants to take their work's products with them. It's true that the school was paying the for teacher to create the IP in a round-about kind of way, but it was also benefiting from the production of it while the teacher was creating and using it.

    AmElder, thanks for your very thoughtful comment - we are indeed a school that values community input in most decisions, and this will be no different. I'm just the one taking on the research. As you can probably tell from my comments above, I feel very strongly that both the school and teacher have claims to the IP, and I would like to find out the best way to codify the guidelines that would ensure that.

    Thanks again for the comments - keep 'em coming!

    1. Re:Clarification from the OP by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      By "doing work for the school," I mean, mainly, IP created during the normal work as faculty; i.e. curriculum/lesson plans, tests, handouts, study guides, even the rare times when a teacher basically makes their own textbook via years and years of teaching experience. A teacher that creates this kind of work, which most all do de facto, wouldn't have been hired by the school to create the IP, but to teach; the IP just follows as a means to do the teaching. Now we're concerned with what happens when, in this kind of situation, a teacher leaves the school and wants to take their work's products with them. It's true that the school was paying the for teacher to create the IP in a round-about kind of way, but it was also benefiting from the production of it while the teacher was creating and using it.

      Not only that, but the school is also directly benefiting from IP the teacher brought with them from previous jobs. If you were to claim complete ownership over materials, that would be a direct disincentive to the staff using their earlier IP, which would mean that the school would miss out.

      There's a definite quid pro quo here, so I would strongly recommend letting teachers keep their copyright -- all the school really needs is a license to duplicate the material later.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
  15. Does the school (or teachers) plan to sell the IP? by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 1

    If none of the people involved have an ambition to make extra money, just releasing the IP under some Creative Commons license would do and make the materials available to other schools and students too.

    If there is no consensus to do that, I personally feel that the teacher has the stronger claim. But even so, putting an automatic license for the school into the work contract seems only fair and would not hurt the teacher's interests much. After all, the worst case for the teacher would be losing sales to one school out of many.

    --
    C - the footgun of programming languages
  16. Our view at University by Jim+Hall · · Score: 1

    As others have said, I'd talk to a lawyer instead of slashdot. That said, what we do where I work (CIO/Director of Technology at a university) is this: for students, if they wrote the code while a student employee, we own it. If they write it as part of a class, they own it. Effectively, this gets to "who paid for the time to write the program."

    For faculty, it's different. Generally, faculty get to own what they write, since it usually falls under their research, which both the university and the faculty want to be publishable. In the case where we specifically might contract with a faculty to write something, we own it. But we go over those terms up front. And it's rare, anyway.

    With staff, by default we own what they produce, since we hired them to write it. If we find something is particularly interesting, we may make arrangements to license it differently so they can release it. But the default is that the university owns it unless we decide not do. It's unfortunate for those really cool projects that have to go through the extra steps, but it makes the most sense. To keep it clean, I'd recommend this: if you want to make something that you own, do it on your own time.

    1. Re:Our view at University by astar · · Score: 1

      Consider, back in the day

      guy wants to go write some code on his own to resell.. He is a salaried programmer. Boss want to help out. Loans him a mini to take home and work on his own time.

      Time passes and the greatest thing since sliced bread is created. O

      oops, the employer owns it

  17. Depends on where funding comes from by BitZtream · · Score: 1

    If the school receives ANY public funding what so ever, all works produced by it should be public domain.

    GPL is not a proper license to use as you're intentionally fucking over multiple people to push an agenda that may not be shared by everyone contributing funding. You more or less can't use anything that takes ANY rights away from others and continue to be fair to the tax payers.
    Anything other than that really isn't fair to anyone who contributed to the public funds given to the school. BSD is closer, but still may conflict for trivial reasons with one of the tax payers who contributed, so public domain is the only logical option.

    As the post above who states GPL is the only obvious choice, thats simply because you want to use this as a tool to promote your agenda and your political ideals, which is exactly what SHOULD NOT HAPPEN with ANYTHING that receives from PUBLIC FUNDING (anything I contribute to as required by law). GPL prevents the work from being used in far too many useful ways. I really wish GPL morons would get a clue and realize that GPL is as bad for innovation as the patent system for the exact same reasons.

    If the school isn't publicly funded, then it really depends on what your school wants to accomplish and what values you are trying to teach.

    Harvards and Yales are more likely to want to use proprietary licenses, and that fits more along with their own teachings.

    Eitherway, your school has a charter that defines what it is trying to impart on its students both from a pure educational standpoint and from a moral stand point ... that chart most likely actually defines EXACTLY what license you should be using in order to fit within its goal.

    Remember, you aren't picking the license YOU WANT to win here, you're supposed to be picking a license that fits the school.

    --
    Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  18. Re:It depends...TTAL by bwcbwc · · Score: 1

    Good stuff. Too bad you got buried as "Anonymous Coward".

    --
    We are the 198 proof..
  19. Simple by Compulawyer · · Score: 1

    The problem itself is simple. One party owns the copyright in the work and the other party gets an unrestricted, irrevocable (notice I said irrevocable and not "perpetual" - although long, copyright duration is not perpetual), non-exclusive license, including the right to sublicense and make derivative works to the work without the obligation to account to the other party. You can battle about which party owns and which party is licensed but with a license this broad, it is almost the same. However, 35 years from now when an assignment may be terminated (under US law if in the US) which party is which will make a difference.

    This is a situation where one or two hours of time from an IP attorney who understands copyright licensing will avoid a LOT of issues later. Don't waste time looking for a prepackaged license that you may alter in ways that have unintended consequences later. This is a one-page agreement. Hire a lawyer to draft it for you.

    --

    Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.