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U.S. Senator Wyden Raises Constitutional Questions About ACTA

bs0d3 writes "In a written letter which can be found here, U.S. Senator Ron Wyden questions President Obama's authority to sign ACTA without Congressional approval. 'It may be possible for the U.S. to implement ACTA or any other trade agreement, once validly entered, without legislation if the agreement requires no change in U.S. law,' Wyden writes. 'But regardless of whether the agreement requires changes in U.S. law ... the executive branch lacks constitutional authority to enter a binding international agreement covering issues delegated by the Constitution to Congress' authority, absent congressional approval.'"

37 of 239 comments (clear)

  1. I actually agree with the Democrat here by DesScorp · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Trade agreements are a form of treaty, and treaties have to be voted on by the Senate. The Constitution does this for a good reason, preventing the President from unilaterally committing the United States to international agreements. Wyden is right on this. And ACTA is clearly a trade agreement. Send this to the Senate first for a vote.

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    1. Re:I actually agree with the Democrat here by Toonol · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So do I. I'm a crazed far-right Republican, but Wyden is a remarkably sensible Democrat, and the type that can get people to cross party lines to vote for him.

      He knows what he's talking about when it comes to technology, and is usually on the correct side on issues such as copyright, privacy, security, etc.

      His views on economics are painfully wrong, though.

    2. Re:I actually agree with the Democrat here by jhoegl · · Score: 2

      You assume the Senate is functioning...

      But what about cases where it is not, like now?

    3. Re:I actually agree with the Democrat here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      No he didn't. Clinton never signed it because the Senate voted against it 95 - 0. At the very end of his term he did sign an executive order reaffirming America's adherence of Kyoto, but he didn't actually sign the treaty. At that point in time not a one of the 167 signatories of Kyoto had actually ratified it.

    4. Re:I actually agree with the Democrat here by AmElder · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I disagree, ACTA is not, at heart, a trade agreement at all. It's a law enforcement treaty focusing on intellectual property. It aims to harmonise the enforcement measure with regard to intellectual property across the signatories. There's evidence for this in every portion of ACTA, but you just have to look at the headings for the two substantive chapters:

      • Chapter II: Legal Framework for Enforcement of Intellectual Property Rights
      • Chapter III: Enforcement Practices

      This doesn't diminish your point or Senator Wyden's. To quote an excellent article by Sean Flynn, ACTA would affect:

      "evidentiary standards required for property seizures and criminal prosecution. It would affect state common law, where many trade secret obligations reside. And primarily it would affect the evolution of federal law, including the large federal statutory enactments on patents, copyrights and trademarks."

      The president doesn't have any enumerated (or un-enumerated) powers that cover this territory, indeed, the power to regulate intellectual property, I understand, is an enumerated power of congress (Article I, sec 8 of the constitution). Therefore the agreement should be submitted to congress by the president and more specifically by the USTR under his authority.

    5. Re:I actually agree with the Democrat here by GameboyRMH · · Score: 3, Funny

      Cue Von Mises/CATO reference in 3,2,1...

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    6. Re:I actually agree with the Democrat here by DesScorp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You assume the Senate is functioning...

      But what about cases where it is not, like now?

      The Senate is functioning as it was designed to, as a break on both the House and the Presidency. The Senate was never supposed to be a rubber-stamp, for either the President or the House.

        The whole point of a Senate is to have a group of men to take a deep look at what the House (which was always supposed to be the popular voice of the people) passes in the heat of the moment, and it was designed to prevent the President from becoming a Caesar. This is why treaties have to be voted on by the Senate, and why the President's appointments to his cabinet and to SCOTUS have to be reviewed, scrutinized, and voted on by the Senate. This is also why Senators were not popularly elected when the Constitution was written, but appointed by state legislators. The whole idea of the founders was to put a second party into the Congress that was indirectly responsible to the people (via their elected state houses), but not popularly elected, and thus less subject to the passions of the moment. I used to support popular election of Senators, but the older I've gotten, the more I think the founders had it right in the first place, and that the 17th Amendment was a mistake.

      Also, if you want things to pass easier in the Senate... the way they do in the House, with a simple majority vote, well, the way is clear here. Just demand that the Senate drop their unique rules requiring 60 votes. That rule is not in the Constitution, but an internal Senate rule (which the Constitution permits).

      Just be careful before you demand this. Because if the Senate goes to simple-majority vote, so can future Senates... ones where the other party is the majority.

      --
      Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    7. Re:I actually agree with the Democrat here by Grishnakh · · Score: 2

      Obama seems to be a Democrat in Name Only these days anyway; he's always just caving in and doing whatever the Republicans want, and calling it "compromise". There's little difference between Obama and Bush in fact, and in some ways Obama has been a lot worse than Bush ever was.

    8. Re:I actually agree with the Democrat here by eepok · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I believe the person to whom you reply would contest that your interpretation of the goings-on in Congress is naive. While everyone would agree with the principal as you state:

      "The whole point of a Senate is to have a group of men to take a deep look at what the House (which was always supposed to be the popular voice of the people) passes in the heat of the moment," ... few people believe that's what actually happening. We have seen *many* acts and bills passed in the heat of the moment and it's hard to argue that our Senators are as much philosophers as they are self- and party-interested tacticians.

      People don't complain about the difficulty of things passing in any house of Congress nearly as much as they do the severe biases that allows some things to pass and others not.

    9. Re:I actually agree with the Democrat here by AmElder · · Score: 2

      Exactly, thank you for putting it so succinctly. ACTA was badly named. It is not what it pretends to be. This seems to be a common understanding among people who've studied the treaty. Another good article in the American University Washington College of Law series, this one written by Margot E. Kaminski, say that:

      "ACTA is primarily a copyright treaty, masquerading as a treaty that addresses dangerous medicines and defective imports."

      The reasons that software professionals and free/open-stuff advocates have opposed the treaty has nothing to do with trade law, and everything to do with the criminal penalties for IP violations and the changing relationship between ISPs and their customer.

    10. Re:I actually agree with the Democrat here by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      You do not actually disagree with the original poster. You just take a slightly more direct route to the same conclusion. The OP said: ACTA is a trade agreement. Trade agreements are nothing more than a form of treaty. Treaties must be voted on by the Senate. You said: ACTA is not a trade agreement, it is a treaty. Treaties must be voted on by Congress.
      I agree with you both. ACTA is not binding on the U.S.until such a time as 2/3s of the Senate vote to ratify it. While Obama can sign it and act on it as law, insofar as anything in it fully falls under the powers of the Presidency, his doing so would not be binding on Congress, or even future Presidents unless it is ratified by the Senate.
      Unfortunately for Obama, very little ACTA falls under the authority of the President. Almost all of the provisions of ACTA apply to areas where Congress is explicitly given authority. Of course, that has not stopped Obama before. He recently declared that he was going to give states waivers to the No Child Left Behind Act if they met certain conditions. The problem being that there is no provision in the No Child Left Behind Act for waivers on any basis (and there are no subsequent laws passed by Congress creating such waivers either).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    11. Re:I actually agree with the Democrat here by Obfuscant · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The whole idea of the founders was to put a second party into the Congress that was indirectly responsible to the people (via their elected state houses), but not popularly elected, and thus less subject to the passions of the moment.

      The reason they weren't elected, and why there are two for every state, is that they were intended to be the body that looked out for the interests of the country as a whole and not the specific interests of the state they came from or the voters therein. Ratification of treaties falls squarely under that baliwick, since treaties tend to have an impact on the entire country and not just one or two states. Ditto federal appointments.

      The 17th amendment was a big mistake, because now all we have are people looking out for their own skins and getting re-elected instead of looking out for the US. This has turned the Senate into nothing more than a posh version of the House.

    12. Re:I actually agree with the Democrat here by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 2

      To further your point, the original purpose of the Senate was that they represented the interests of the states, not directly the people. And the states desperately need representation, as we can see now with a federal government that puts onerous regulations on them with no recourse and no direct representation. Note that when I say "states" I really mean the states, not the people living there (who are indirectly the states).

    13. Re:I actually agree with the Democrat here by blair1q · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The whole point of a Senate is to have a group of men to take a deep look at what the House (which was always supposed to be the popular voice of the people) passes in the heat of the moment, and it was designed to prevent the President from becoming a Caesar.

      Well, no. The point of Congress and the judiciary is to keep the President from becoming a Caesar. The point of the Senate was to give property a voice in Congress to go with the voice of the people over in the House. About a hundred years ago, we got wise to that and changed Senate appointment to a democratic vote of the people, so now it's just a harder way to get into Congress and attracts those who have enough political clout they could wipe their nose on a House seat. They tend to be the more experienced types, and, some time in the past, more deliberate. So it got that reputation as a body.

      Now, however, owing to the resurgence of pettiness as the primary means of political discourse, it's indistinguishable from the House except in the cost incurred in stealing the votes necessary to enter it.

    14. Re:I actually agree with the Democrat here by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      Until such a time as it is ratified by the U.S. Senate, none of its provisions are binding on the U.S., not even the arbitration process. The problem that Senator Wyden (and the OP and myself) have is with the President saying that he will sign it and treat it as binding without it being ratified by the U.S. Senate (I have additional problems with the treaty, but they are not something I will lay solely at Obama's feet). The President does not have the authority to enter into an agreement with other nations that are, in anyway, binding on the U.S. (outside of things that fall exclusively under the authority of the President and then only for so long as he is President).
      Statements by the President (or his spokesperson) that he is going to sign this treaty and implement regulations and enforcement protocols without getting it ratified by the Senate (which is the way I read the things that have come out of the White House on this. although that may be mistaken). I point out White House statements about waivers to the NCLB law to indicate why I believe what I am hearing is true--Obama has in the past stated (and acted) in ways that exceed his authority and thus I am inclined to believe interpretations of his statements that say he intends to do so again.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    15. Re:I actually agree with the Democrat here by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      His views on economics are painfully wrong, though.

      I think you can make an argument that all views about economics are wrong. I've yet to see any economic 'theory' make any wholesale sense. I've tried numerous times to read various economic books but after the first couple of chapters my brain feels like it got slapped around in a logic blender and my eyes defocus and my head asplodes.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    16. Re:I actually agree with the Democrat here by stevew · · Score: 2

      I think you have this wrong. "The reason they weren't elected, and why there are two for every state, is that they were intended to be the body that looked out for the interests of the country as a whole and not the specific interests of the state they came from or the voters therein. "

      This is inherently wrong when you consider that the constitution created to sets of co-equal sovereignty. The intention as I read the constitution was to create an upper house where the concerns of the States would be taken into consideration, while the house was the "People's house." Each state had equal representation, thus no state had a larger voice than any other. The Senate was designed to give the state governments a say in the Federal governments operation.

      Though we come to the same conclusion - popular elections of Senators is a huge mistake.

      --
      Have you compiled your kernel today??
    17. Re:I actually agree with the Democrat here by sconeu · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I read somewhere that the primary function of a Senator from Oregon is to drive all the rest of the Senate crazy.

      Note. This is a *GOOD* thing.

      Thank you, Senator Wyden.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    18. Re:I actually agree with the Democrat here by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      Look at it this way: If you accept this precedent, there might be a warrant out for Obama someday too for all these extrajudicial killings.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    19. Re:I actually agree with the Democrat here by ravenshrike · · Score: 2

      Because of course the banking crisis about to hit Europe shows that socialist policies totally work right?

    20. Re:I actually agree with the Democrat here by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2

      There is no "true free market". Except in terrible places like Mogadishu and Peshawar, and various other slave trading centers, now and through history.

      Citicorp specifically, but Goldman Sachs and the rest of the banks all bribed Congress to legislate the system they all crashed. The deregulation, specifically of Glass-Steagal by Gramm-Leach-Bliley, was very obviously the cause of the crashes that the previous regulation had directly prevented for over a half century.

      The distorted set of laws you're at least admitting are the deregulation laws forced on America by the wildest promoters of "free markets". Everything you're invoking is directly from the playbook written by these banks, their law and PR firms, for their bought reps in Congress and corrupted regulators like the SEC.

      BTW, $90B is a lot of money, but not compared to the $2-10 TRILLION the banks threw at each other at the end of 2008 as their mutual scams crumbled and George Bush, Dick Cheney and Henry Paulson yanked it from the public to fund their free fall.

      It's awful. But it gets worse every turn of the crank you "free market" idealists force on the country after the last "free market" turned out to be no true Scotsman yet again.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

  2. The Constitution? by ShakaUVM · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The Constitution? Pfft.

    We've moved past that a long time ago.

    Asset forfeiture, warrantless search and seizure, restrictions on the freedom of the press on the internet...

    1. Re:The Constitution? by mcgrew · · Score: 2

      Indeed. I documented our lack of what were formerly our rights six years ago.

    2. Re:The Constitution? by dkleinsc · · Score: 2

      I'm surprised you didn't add killing and torturing (under the rules put forward by the UN Human Rights Council and Amnesty International) citizens without charges.

      But hey, at least nobody's tried to quarter troops in my home yet.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  3. It's a real issue, because of a DoD privilege by Animats · · Score: 4, Informative

    First, the link to the letter in the article tries to get you to sign up for some file storage service before reading the document. Here's the original from Sen. Wyden's U.S, Senate site.

    The reason this isn't being submitted to the Senate for ratification as a treaty is because of a conflict between the pharmaceutical industry and the Department of Defense. The pharmaceutical industry insists that national governments not be allowed to override intellectual property laws to make low-cost drugs available to their citizens. That's in ACTA. DoD insists that they be allowed to override intellectual property laws when they want to use a technology without paying for patent rights first.

    If ACTA were ratified by the Senate, it would be binding on the U.S. Goverment. This would give patent holders rights against the U.S. Government they dont' have now. DoD doesn't want that.

    1. Re:It's a real issue, because of a DoD privilege by hierofalcon · · Score: 2

      Neither majority party will allow a candidate to be nominated who wants this at the Presidential level. Occasionally one slips into Congress - like Ron Paul - but neither his own party nor the Democrats like him much there either.

    2. Re:It's a real issue, because of a DoD privilege by Solandri · · Score: 3, Interesting

      DoD insists that they be allowed to override intellectual property laws when they want to use a technology without paying for patent rights first.

      Are you sure? It sounds more like they just want to preserve the Bayh-Dole Act, meaning if the government helps fund the R&D for a product, they get non-exclusive royalty-free rights to any IP generated from it. I know the DoD has some overreaching powers over IP when it comes to national secrecy or times of war, but I haven't heard of them being able to just use someone's independently-developed patent outright without paying for it (aside from the regular government indemnification from being sued).

  4. Ron Wyden Lovenest by RobinEggs · · Score: 2

    Every time I see Ron Wyden associated with something he's the one asking intelligent questions or proposing reasonable legislation. It's gotten to the point where I have to watch myself to make sure I don't agree with him reflexively.

    I'm incredibly impressed with him, and I sure wish *he* would run for president. I'm nauseated at the prospect of choosing between Romney and Obama next year.

    Sometimes I even want to do this with pictures of Ron. Secret Love Lair

  5. Shit, talk about Sophie's Choice by RobinEggs · · Score: 2

    Between two really unattractive options, backing DoD or pharmaceuticals, I think we picked the wrong side of that one. Pharmaceutical companies are just about the most corrupt, manipulative organizations around. And I'm not saying that because of some CNN sound bite, I've read some good books by business ethics and public health experts on the topic. This one was not only argumentative but surprisingly scholarly and accessible; great stuff. Profits Before People

    The people in sales and marketing of prescription drugs are seriously the scum of the Earth. They manipulate prices, patents, medical education, public opinion, public policy, and a thousand other things. What makes them especially annoying to me is their constant press statements and ad campaigns about how they're so generous, so sensitive, and how they're practically non-profit in the long run. At least banks and arms dealers occasionally admit it's all about the money.

  6. Re:This President... by Grishnakh · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No, he's not. He's a pawn for his corporatist handlers, just like Bush was.

  7. This isn't about his law school by Quila · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's about the cushy position given to him for 12 years at University of Chicago Law School as a lecturer for constitutional law. His colleagues at the school didn't find him to be particularly engaged, as he had other priorities at the time, namely his political career.

    His connections were gained while doing community organizing work in Chicago. I have to admit, he is extremely smooth. He'd do anything, pretend to believe anything, live a complete lie, just to get ahead.

  8. Re:Since when... by scot4875 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Sorry, but anyone referring to Obama as the "Messiah" or the "One" or the "Chosen" or whatever deserves to be modded to oblivion because it's flamebait. Essentially you're insulting both Obama *and* insinuating that his supporters are fanatical, irrational worshippers, without having the balls to come out and say it. It's a nice little straw man for you to attack without putting any effort or thought into it.

    I'll admit that I didn't even read the rest of your OP, because I figured it would be more of the same.

    --Jeremy

    --
    Jesus was a liberal
  9. Re:This President... by scot4875 · · Score: 3, Informative

    No, it was the Republican minority that somehow maneuvered the health care bill into a situation where the individual mandate was the *only* way to pay for it. I'm not sure how else they expected it to work when they took the single payer option off the table.

    I'd claim that it was just an unintended consequence, except I'm pretty sure this was *exactly* what was intended. They get to force the issue, then blame Obama for what they did. Brilliant, really, especially considering how many dupes will happily swallow the lie whole as long as it fits with their "Obama and the Democrats are big spenders!" mantra.

    --Jeremy

    --
    Jesus was a liberal
  10. Treaty vs. Executive agreement by unassimilatible · · Score: 2

    This link explains the difference: Treaties and Executive Agreements.

    Since George Washington, presidents have been entering the US into international agreements that were not approved by the Senate, i.e., agreements pursuant to the constitutional authority of the president.

    The constitutional sources of authority for the President to conclude international agreements include:
    (a) The President’s authority as Chief Executive to represent the nation in foreign affairs;
    (b) The President’s authority to receive ambassadors and other public ministers;
    (c) The President’s authority as “Commander-in-Chief”; and
    (d) The President’s authority to “take care that the laws be faithfully executed.”

    So the Obama Admin will obviously claim this falls under his constitutional authority based on existing law. It will be interesting to see if SCOTUS takes the case, assuming one arises.

    Please don't argue with the messenger here, I'm just presenting the law and the facts, not issuing a conclusion on ACTA's legality.

    --
    Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
  11. Re:Since when... by geekoid · · Score: 2

    I hope not. His campaign is built upon a logical fallacy: The Running a business is the same as running a country.

    It isn't. There are two separate species. One case about customer, and is responsible to a few people who hold stock.

    The other has a responsibility to all people, regardless of their income or voice.

    "And as a successful business leader and CEO, my executive experience in turning around struggling companies is just what this country needs."

    No, it is not. Business are dictatorships.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  12. Re:Since when... by sycodon · · Score: 2

    A business executive is a leader. They understand organization, bureaucrats (yes, business have these types too) and delegation.

    A community organizer understands none of this. They understand political connections, special favors, and pandering. And we've seen what those get us.

    If running a business is nothing like running a country, then organizing a community is the opposite of running a country.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
  13. DoD IP rights by ace37 · · Score: 4, Informative

    As a DoD contractor, I see that all the time. DoD employees are rightfully pissed when contractors develop tech on the government dime, then take the tech a half step further and start calling it proprietary. It's total BS. The DoD always wants the simple right to use the things they paid for without paying again. And in years past, DoD contracts departments have sometimes done a poor job and then been burned by buying something on a low initial bid, being sold a proprietary technology, and then being stuck with ridiculously overpriced maintenance costs and no way to cost-effectively hire someone else to do the work.

    I've never seen the DoD just try to directly use a foreign patent for free, although it's not an issue of whether or not they want to--I think it's more functional roles. The DoD is primarily composed of enlisted guys who do the work and generalist officers who lead them. They employ pockets of specialists to keep the generalists out of trouble, and those few specialists usually end up responsible for technical management of programs and contracts so the officers don't need to do day to day management and can focus on strategic items. That way DoD officers don't have to learn how to manage highly technical staffs--which is a very different task from managing soldiers in the field, so this significatanly cuts DoD overhead--and the DoD doesn't have to figure out how to keep paying for a costly technical staff if congress reduces funding since they can just not extend contracts.

    The DoD will still be crying for the new features and capabilities provided by new patents, but they generally don't care how it gets done, and consequently, the patent is an issue the contractor can figure out. The DoD just wants 'sharks with frikin lasers attached to their heads.'
    And now they buy the documentation too so they can later get competitive bids on upgrading those lasers down the road.