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Security Researcher Threatened With Vulnerability Repair Bill

mask.of.sanity writes "A security consultant who quietly tipped off an Australian superannuation fund about a web vulnerability that potentially put millions of customers at risk has been slapped with a legal threat demanding he allow the company access to his computer, and warned he may be forced to pay the cost of fixing the flaw. A legal document (PDF) sent from the company demanded that the researcher provide its technical staff with access to his computer. The company acknowledged the researcher's work was altruistic and thanked him for his efforts, but warned that the disclosure, which was not previously made public, may have breached Australian law. The researcher had run a batch file to access about 500 accounts, which was then handed to the company to demonstrate the direct object reference vulnerability."

231 comments

  1. Lesson learned by nurb432 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you find a vulnerability, don't tell the people at risk, sell it or use it.

    Either that or move to a less stupid country.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:Lesson learned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      More like you need to extend whistleblower protection for security researchers disclosing vulnerabilities. However, the guy basically admitted to unlawful access of their system in order to prove the vulnerability existed, which in ethical circles is a big no-no.

    2. Re:Lesson learned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Laws against using a vulnerability are not stupid. This guy screwed up. Accessing 500 accounts is not research.

    3. Re:Lesson learned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What is the alternative? It isn't possible to know if a flaw exists without exploiting it.

    4. Re:Lesson learned by DanTheStone · · Score: 2

      TFA says 1, not 500. I wonder where the 500 number came from?

    5. Re:Lesson learned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I want to know where the "batch file accessing 500 accounts" came from - certainly not in the TFA.

      So they have threatened legal charges and told him to destroy what evidence he may have, and then allow them to go through his computer? Nice

    6. Re:Lesson learned by LifesABeach · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, lets just backup here a bit. If my neighbor discovers that part of my fence is broken, and walks onto my property to tell me so:
      1. Is the neighbor guilty of Trespassing?
      2. Is the neighbor guilty of causing the fence to be broken?
      3. Is the neighbor guilty of being the cause of the broken fence?
      4. Is the neighbor guilty of Negligence because the fence is broken?
      5. Is the neighbor guilty of Indirect Negligence because the fence is broken?
      6. Is the neighbor guilty of not maintaining the fence?
      7. Is the neighbor guilty of any damage because the fence is broken?

      Some Lawyer in their first year of business is going to carve up a Hedge Fund like a Christmas Turkey. Cheers!

    7. Re:Lesson learned by shentino · · Score: 1

      What I'd like to know is who he told that wasn't entitled to know about it.

      If the guy told the same network as the one he found the breach in, how is that a violation of privacy?

      We need to know more about whose network he discovered to have an exploit, and who exactly he told about it.

    8. Re:Lesson learned by jimshatt · · Score: 1

      Maybe, but handing over documents of 500 accounts has somewhat more impact than just 1. The company might have been inclined to see this as a glitch and continue with business as usual. After all, if they were stupid enough to create this gaping security hole, they're probably stupid enough to leave it this way unless (nearly) forced to fix it.

    9. Re:Lesson learned by arth1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem was that your neighbor, in order to discover whether your fence was broken, tried 600 entry points.

      No, I'm not defending the Australian company and its lawyers, but pen-testing without permission is black hat even if done under responsible disclosure.
      It's one thing to pen-test a device you own, it's a whole different kettle of fish to do the same to a random company.

      If I were Judge Dredd in this case, I'd award the company a 1 cent restitution along with a hefty fine for wasting the court's time, then put the researcher in jail for three months for the crime of stupidity.

    10. Re:Lesson learned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) Yes
      2-6) No, of course.
      7) If he damaged anything while performing (1) he is responsible.

      I think a better analogy would be the neighbor noticing the fence is being held up by rot wood. In the case of this researcher he pushes the fence over, walks to the front door (through the hole in the fence and house), walks out the front door, turns around and rings the doorbell. All instead of noticing the rot wood and walking around to the front door and reporting a possible problem.

      The researcher suspected an error (see the rot wood).
      The research exploits the error (pushes the fence over).
      The researcher copies a couple files (walks through the house).
      The researcher reports his findings to the company (walks out the front door, closes it, then turns around and rings the doorbell).

    11. Re:Lesson learned by bratwiz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What you mean is, if the neighbor stops by to tell you your fence is broken and hands you your TV set as proof he was able to access your stuff.

      I'd say that's a bit different than all the things you suggested.

      How would you feel about it?

    12. Re:Lesson learned by MachDelta · · Score: 1

      The PDF mentions accessing "approximately" 568 accounts.

    13. Re:Lesson learned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      which in ethical circles is a big no-no.

      With a nonstandard definition of ethical.

    14. Re:Lesson learned by DanTheStone · · Score: 1

      Ah, there's the crucial missing link. Sounds like it could be a bad summary in the other articles, then. Thank you.

    15. Re:Lesson learned by Cyberllama · · Score: 3

      That metaphor breaks down here because there's no way to "see the hole" until you've stumbled through it. In this case, we're talking about changing a value somewhere in an URL or something similar, and getting access to something that isn't yours. You can look at the structure of the URL and make the intuitive leap that there might be an issue and test it out, but there's no way you can know without testing and no point in reporting if you don't know.

    16. Re:Lesson learned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...if you can find one.

    17. Re:Lesson learned by interkin3tic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Either that or move to a less stupid country.

      "Shoot the messenger" transcends national boundaries. You really want to find a less stupid PLANET to live on.

    18. Re:Lesson learned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would LOVE to see my neighbor lift my TV. Thing must weigh over 50 pounds!

    19. Re:Lesson learned by HappyPsycho · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He used the appropriate amount of force, we all know these companies would not rush to fix it unless there was a known exploit ripping them to bits.

      If he didn't show an exploit the company would most likely have claimed it was only "theoretically possible". Especially when all that was required was:

      He had increased a numerical value in a URL used to access his statement by one digit and was granted access to a former colleagues' account.

      Complete lack of authentication seems the culprit here, does that make google, yahoo, bing, etc potentially guilty as well? They could have come across it as well (hopefully this company knows about robots.txt), I guess mass spidering the site could yield some interesting results if this flaw exists (yes I know they fixed this one, doesn't mean others don't exist).

      To tell you the honest truth, if someone said change the ID on that URL to get into another account when I'm logged into my online banking I would laugh them out of the room, what scares the F*** out of me is this company is in charge of a couple million retirement accounts (http://www.pillar.com.au/about_us.htm -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superannuation_in_Australia).

    20. Re:Lesson learned by Riceballsan · · Score: 1

      The rotton wood analogy breaks down due to the fence being left in the exact condition it was. I would consider a loose board he could slide up and down as a better analogy. He slid open the loose board, walked in, took pictures of the house and valubles, then brought the pictures to the home owner. He is guilty of trespassing and invasion of privacy, but not destruction of property, and the price of the fence should not be charged to him IMO. The only way I could even half way see the rotton wood analogy working were if he had publicly announced the vulnerability, turning the fix into a more time sensitive problem.

    21. Re:Lesson learned by cob666 · · Score: 2

      The problem was that your neighbor, in order to discover whether your fence was broken, tried 600 entry points.

      NO, the neighbor went in through the hole in the fence and then took 500 pictures of your property. Hey then gave you the pictures and said he was able to walk through a hole in your fence.

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law - Aleister Crowley
    22. Re:Lesson learned by HappyPsycho · · Score: 1

      Indeed, leaving the bug there or REALLY exploiting it would be an ethical no-no...

    23. Re:Lesson learned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      get some exercise, otaku

    24. Re:Lesson learned by SpaghettiPattern · · Score: 2

      If you find a vulnerability, don't tell the people at risk, sell it or use it.

      Either that or move to a less stupid country.

      I'd almost say: "Name the country and I'll be packing."

      It can't be the land my mother and I left. It also can't be the country I found my SO. It surely isn't the state I'm living now.

      Take it from me that the country should be improved and not simply discarded as if it were a modern day employee.

      --

      I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
    25. Re:Lesson learned by durrr · · Score: 1

      He didn't remove or break anything, had he not handed over the files nothing would've ever been noticed, if your fat ass found a sofa with no TV you'd be furiously enraged. You suck at analogies.

      More proper would be that he hands you a copy of your home-made porn collection. In which case you should not try to push any legal action against him due to being nice as either he could release the material, or someone reacting to your dickheadedness could exploit their way into said porn collection and release it to the internet when you draw attention with your legal case.

    26. Re:Lesson learned by Z00L00K · · Score: 2

      Or publish it on 4chan or as an AC on Slashdot.

      Then you will find enough hackers to really get an interesting result.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    27. Re:Lesson learned by houghi · · Score: 1

      That would depend. He was very clear about the intentions. He gave back my TV and he clearly made his point. So I would be thank full.

      I have had neighbors who saw that I forgot to lock my bike, took that bike and put it in their garage and then left a not to tell they took the bike.

      Should I be sueing them for theft or thanking them from keeping my bike safe? I somehow tend to go with the second one and that is what I did.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    28. Re:Lesson learned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah how do you differentiate the shithead anon wannabe from Mr. Security Consultant? Cause anyone that gets busted will claim they're "researching potential vulnerabilities".

      You know what would solve this? Don't attempt to break into anyones stuff unsolicited. That's a pretty simple demarcation between legit and shady.

    29. Re:Lesson learned by MrNthDegree · · Score: 1

      Sod the "ethical circles", they keep changing their minds about what is right and wrong. Is full disclosure best or keeping things a secret? They change their mind on that 24/7.

      It's a public website, so it's not straight up unauthorised access from a legal perspective as he had legitimate access to the site for a valid reason.

      Section 308H requires an access control system to be in place. If there wasn't anything naturally stopping him from gaining access when he discovered the flaw, then the data was not "restricted" legally and thus he is not liable.

      Section 478 appears to be repealed, so they appear to be full of bullshit in some of their legal threats..

      Did he have the intent to gain any form of unauthorised access when he discovered the flaw? If the answer is no, he has a valid defense in court in terms of intent when it comes to most of the sections. Is he a security professional? Yes, therefore the argument of producing a proof-of-concept is also a valid defence based on intent.

      [Disclaimer: IANAL.]

    30. Re:Lesson learned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

    31. Re:Lesson learned by lastx33 · · Score: 2

      Exactly. Regardless of how the vulnerability was exposed, the researcher did the right thing and handed the information to the owner of the system. The result was the right one and the intent was honest even if the method of discovery may not have been strictly legal. Any good and fair legal system should judge someone on intent and outcome. Computer security relies on the willingness of well intentioned individuals who sometimes use illegal methods to reveal vulnerabilities. I can't see how it is productive to scare people from revealing what they find by prosecuting them when their intentions are not malevolent, in fact, precisely the opposite. The resources of law enforcement should be directed at those who have malign intent instead.

      --
      "You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead!" - Stan Laurel
    32. Re:Lesson learned by Loveless62 · · Score: 1

      The neighbor may not be guilty of 2-7, but the neighbor is guilty of trespassing, and you are within your rights to press charges. The choice would be totally up to you. However, you wouldn't normally make the choice to press charges, because:

      - It would damage your relationship with this neighbor.
      - Your other neighbors would probably disapprove of your choice and view you as mean-spirited. You would be punishing someone who was trying to be helpful.
      - If the neighbor didn't actually damage any property, it's probably not worth the effort.

      To go back to the subject of this thread, the company may be within their rights to press charges, but they may not understand the bad PR that it will generate. They should take the more civil action and let it go.

    33. Re:Lesson learned by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      Ethics are relative.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    34. Re:Lesson learned by slackbheep · · Score: 1

      Does his neighbor read /.?

    35. Re:Lesson learned by WNight · · Score: 1

      You'd make a lousy neighbor. I've spent much of this year literally testing our neighbors' fences (and our own) - destructively even - kicking at posts as hard as I can, etc, to find even signs of weakness. Then we trade lists of weak spots with them and cooperate on fixing the fence.

    36. Re:Lesson learned by arth1 · · Score: 0

      I have the best fence there is - surveyor's marks with no fence. You can see where the limit is, but nothing prevents you from crossing it.
      It's the equivalent to open source - it won't stop you, but don't trespass on my copyrights.

    37. Re:Lesson learned by WNight · · Score: 1

      I've seen people who wouldn't believe their fence was down. And people who won't believe their information security systems are broken.

      In both cases you have to grab someone by the nose and make them look before their cows (metaphorical or otherwise) eat your (likewise, metaphorical if appropriate) garden.

      The researcher probably can't countersue to be paid for pointing out this vulnerability, but it's a shame. One bogus lawsuit deserves to be answered with a bigger one.

    38. Re:Lesson learned by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      BugTraq and Full Disclosure are probably the best options, using a disposable email address and Tor or course. BugTraq in particular is guaranteed to get the word out quickly to reputable news sources (and Slashdot).

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    39. Re:Lesson learned by MntlChaos · · Score: 1

      Is it ethical to, having enough knowledge to suspect there's a vulnerability, to withhold that knowledge from those in a position to fix it? You're keeping many other innocent people at risk with our silence. Software developers make mistakes all the time. There are lots of other people in the world skilled at finding those mistakes. Some of these will use those to attempt to profit, while others want to protect innocent people. It seems strange that you attempt to discount the work of all of the people in that second category. These are the guys that keep the number of 0days down. If they win, you get a monthly security patch from your vendor. If they lose, you get services taken down for weeks due to break-ins and lots of ugly work arounds.

    40. Re:Lesson learned by Joe+Mucchiello · · Score: 1

      Why not just call it a chain-link fence and go from there?

    41. Re:Lesson learned by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Had a neighbor do this with my cat not too long ago. Cat got out, it was raining, they took care of her overnight and let me know the next day (I think they noticed that cat late at night). I was very appreciative, I can't imagine anyone getting mad over so little.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  2. Obviously by nedlohs · · Score: 2

    If you are going to access 500 accounts you don't then report the problem with your name attached. Even if said access is just changing a number in a url because they have a retarded system.

    1. Re:Obviously by Synerg1y · · Score: 2

      The "right" thing to do as per the old internet standard is to publish it as a 0 day hack and then let the company fix it themselves.

      1. It's the companies systems and they are responsible not you
      2. Hacking is illegal
      3. This is what happens when you try to reason with sheep who just don't get it

      If this was a 0 day currently, it would have probably been patched already and no legal action threat would occur.

      Also, at least in the states there are no circumstances a private entity can look at any of my information, it can contact law enforcement, and they can seize the computer, but otherwise SOL and that's the way it should be.

    2. Re:Obviously by Mathinker · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > said access is just changing a number in a url because they have a retarded system

      I wonder just how many of us have come across such idiocies. I know I have, and yes, I didn't report it because the probability that I would get into trouble by doing so was greater than the damage of email addresses being leaked or having a few people getting their bulk email subscriptions erroneously canceled (it was a company which took care of mass emailing for quite a few clients, including a prestigious scientific journal).

    3. Re:Obviously by jamstar7 · · Score: 1

      The "right" thing to do as per the old internet standard is to publish it as a 0 day hack and then let the company fix it themselves.

      1. It's the companies systems and they are responsible not you 2. Hacking is illegal 3. This is what happens when you try to reason with sheep who just don't get it

      If this was a 0 day currently, it would have probably been patched already and no legal action threat would occur.

      Also, at least in the states there are no circumstances a private entity can look at any of my information, it can contact law enforcement, and they can seize the computer, but otherwise SOL and that's the way it should be.

      Just goes to show, no good dead goes unpunished.

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    4. Re:Obviously by hawguy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I wonder just how many of us have come across such idiocies.

      I came across one long ago, back when the internet was more open and trusting - a discovered that a remote server had its root filesystem opened to the world via an NFS export. I emailed the administrator for the server and he said "No worries, you may be able to mount it but file permissions prevent you from doing anything unless you have an account on that server". So I emailed back and said that *any* root user on any server could get full access (this was before the root user was routinely mapped to uid nobody). He said "No, if you're not root on my server you can't get access". So I mounted it read-write from my computer, did a "touch /etc/i_have_access" and told him to look at the file I just created.

      He thanked me and stopped exporting the filesystem. If I did that nowadays, I'd likely be facing charges for hacking.

    5. Re:Obviously by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      Just goes to show, no good dead goes unpunished.

      Zombie joke?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    6. Re:Obviously by arth1 · · Score: 1

      I wonder just how many of us have come across such idiocies. I know I have,

      I took a look at my cookie hive one day. Not just who set what cookies, but what they actually contained. There were several that "authorized" (if you can call it that) by a simple and relatively low number. No hash, no corresponding key, nope. Just a number in a cookie to bypass a login. Change it, and Bob's your uncle.

    7. Re:Obviously by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

      I still run into Unix and Linux admins who don't understand how NFS (non-)authentication works. It's a retarded system that blindly trusts the user to state their identity and group membership (uid/gid) and there are no credentials involved at all. These guys usually have norootsquash enabled which makes it even worse.

    8. Re:Obviously by HappyPsycho · · Score: 1

      You do realize what this company does right???

      These guys claim to be in charge of the retirement accounts of 1 million+ people... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superannuation_in_Australia

      Ethical morality comparison:
      Researcher > Company

      I understand your case where the potential loss is small but that clearly isn't the scenario here.

    9. Re:Obviously by SpaghettiPattern · · Score: 1

      I wonder just how many of us have come across such idiocies.

      remote server had its root filesystem opened to the world via an NFS export

      Ah, the good old days of SunOS 4 / Solaris 1.

      --

      I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
    10. Re:Obviously by DrVxD · · Score: 1

      Just goes to show, no good dead goes unpunished.

      Zombie joke?

      Can't speak for GP's intent - but in my experience it's a fundamental law of physics.

      --
      Not everything that can be measured matters; Not everything that matters can be measured.
    11. Re:Obviously by Mathinker · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of the time I found out that the email address uucp@the_company_where_I_worked was mapped to pipe directly to uucp. After the admins told me it was OK to pentest, I sent an email which created a file called /bin/this_could_have_been_called_ls and notified them. They figured out pretty quick that that wasn't a good idea...

    12. Re:Obviously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      been there, done that.
      Things have changed in 25 years. Back then I went looking for broken shit so I could email the admin and have them fix it.

      Today, it's not that I don't give a fuck, it's that finding the right person to contact is such a pain in the ass.

    13. Re:Obviously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'd have to ask him for permission: "can I demonstrate the vulnerability to you in a harmless way?"

      Asking is not hard.

    14. Re:Obviously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, I stopped that kind of activity in the mid 90s, when lawyers convinced companies that they didn't need to listen to people who told them they were insecure, all they needed to do was sue everyone they found, and the problem would go away.
      Now, very few people altruistically tell corporations they have a flaw (and largely, they get set on if they do). So the flaws that exist just get used by people who aren't going to tell the corporations, and get to make money out of it.
      Well done. That's such an improvement!

    15. Re:Obviously by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Frankly, I'm still amazed that no unix-like OS that I'm aware of has come up with a networked filesystem that is both actually secure and which supports all the unix-y permissions/attributes/etc. It seems like the closest options I can find are:

      1. Samba - which is about as unix-y as vfat.
      2. OpenAFS - which is crufty and VERY painful to set up.
      3. 9P, which is obscure and not well-implemented on unix, or anything else but Plan9.

      This shouldn't be so difficult to do...

    16. Re:Obviously by fluffy99 · · Score: 2

      There is NFSv4 with RPCSEC_GSS support. I never actually got it to work, nor have I read of anyone successfully getting it to work with a Windows client. Personally, the unix user-group-world permissions are very limited and pale in comparison to the fine grained permissions and inheritance that you can do under Windows. Sure you have the extended attributes under ext3, but linux doesn't expose them very well (need to set via command line) and there still is no means of changing them via file sharing. Perhaps the Samba can start focusing on getting permissions to work smoothly between windows and linux?

  3. As the old idiom goes: by magsol · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No good deed goes unpunished.

    Being punished for doing the right thing tends to bias people towards hiding this sort of information, which would imply that your vulnerability isn't made public until someone slightly less kind happens upon it. Which is apparently the way these folks would prefer it be made public.

    --
    "I'd just like to emphasise that taking a million years isn't a metaphor here..." -Rich Bradshaw
    1. Re:As the old idiom goes: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't understand it from their position. If nobody notices, no issues. Since its brought up, they actually have to do something about it. If it is used for badness, its the EVIL HACKERS and not our incompetence. Since he sent in the evidence, they have to do something about it, and can't blame anybody.

    2. Re:As the old idiom goes: by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      You don't understand it from their position. If nobody notices, no issues. Since its brought up, they actually have to do something about it. If it is used for badness, its the EVIL HACKERS and not our incompetence. Since he sent in the evidence, they have to do something about it, and can't blame anybody.

      ~ He could even be charged with performing a scapegoat-otomy without a medical license! Oh, the humanity! /~ :-)

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    3. Re:As the old idiom goes: by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      Exactly. If some hacker or something abuses the exploit and harms the company (and perhaps all of its customers), then too bad for them. If they're going to act like this, just let it happen to them (the customers will love it).

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    4. Re:As the old idiom goes: by HappyPsycho · · Score: 1

      Do you care about the security of your bank?

      Said company is in charge of this guys money...

  4. Full-Disclosure by gellenburg · · Score: 1

    If you find a vulnerability, disclose it. Publicly.

    And yes, I work in Information Security. Vulnerability Management even. Go figure.

    1. Re:Full-Disclosure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, you can't manage vulnerabilities unless you know about them :D

    2. Re:Full-Disclosure by Hatta · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you find a vulnerability, disclose it. Publicly.

      and anonymously.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:Full-Disclosure by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

      If you find a vulnerability, disclose it. Publicly.

      And yes, I work in Information Security. Vulnerability Management even. Go figure.

      At least be ethical and anonymously tell the company first and give them a chance to fix it themselves. If they ignore it, then consider a public announcement. Otherwise you're no better than the criminals, legally or ethically.

    4. Re:Full-Disclosure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In a perfect World that would work, and Companies would notify their customers of the threat and come up with a game plan to mitigate the vulnerability.

      In the real World Companies aren't going to do Jack Schitt unless their hand is forced.

      And for me, as the Customer, I'd much rather know that a threat exists so *I* can be proactive and try to mitigate the threat than rely on some Company sitting on a vulnerability for months and years while they devise a patch or hotfix all the while I — the customer — am in the dark, and the bad guys have an opportunity to exploit the vulnerability.

      Ethical Disclosure is a fallacy.

    5. Re:Full-Disclosure by gellenburg · · Score: 2

      Re-posting because I forgot to login:

      In a perfect World that would work, and Companies would notify their customers of the threat and come up with a game plan to mitigate the vulnerability.

      In the real World Companies aren't going to do Jack Schitt unless their hand is forced.

      And for me, as the Customer, I'd much rather know that a threat exists so *I* can be proactive and try to mitigate the threat than rely on some Company sitting on a vulnerability for months and years while they devise a patch or hotfix all the while I — the customer — am in the dark, and the bad guys have an opportunity to exploit the vulnerability.

      Ethical Disclosure is a fallacy.

    6. Re:Full-Disclosure by HappyPsycho · · Score: 1

      If that scenario stood a stand a chance of working, the need for anonymity would be zero.

      What happens if the company is unable to recreate the flaw and as such can't fix it, they can't reach the researcher to get more info so are they are they being malicious by not fixing the issue? Nope.

      Hence as you see with almost all other responsible disclosures you know who found it, are they being sued for finding the flaw? Nope.

      Good luck to any company that lacks a public policy on how these matters are handled, the behavior of this one most likely will lead future exploits to remain hidden as no one will report until they explode as 0-days when someone does a full disclosure.

    7. Re:Full-Disclosure by oursland · · Score: 1

      You'd think so, right? There's still no guarantee they'll address the problem, inform their customers and not go after the researcher. The only thing that forces them to do the right thing is pressure from their customers and/or regulatory organizations.

  5. Yes. by unity100 · · Score: 2

    Next time leave the whoresons to get fucked through their vulnerability by ill-intentioned black hats rather than warning them.

    they deserve it. really.

    1. Re:Yes. by Pseudonym+Authority · · Score: 1

      I concur. People like those are why you have to ask before saving someone from choking. Fuck 'em. And honestly, what's the point or informing them that their code is shitty. It isn't as if they are an OSS project. They are a private company, and they should either pay you, or get hacked and lose customers. The is the free market. Only a filthy socialist would do it for free.

    2. Re:Yes. by deniable · · Score: 1

      Except he's a member of the fund and they've already admitted that they use money in the fund to fix these things. Unless the members file a suit for negligence (good luck) he'll be out of pocket when they get violated.

  6. shades of Randal Schwartz by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The well-known author of O'Reilly's Learning Perl was caught testing an open source password cracking package on Intel's intranet while doing consulting work there in the '90s. Intel didn't find it interesting in the same way Schwartz did, and a nasty legal battle ensued.

    IIRC one of the harvested passwords was "Pre$ident", from an ambitious Intel VP.

  7. Good Samaritan Laws by bmo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In meatspace, there are Good Samaritan laws that say that if you help someone who is in danger, you are not to be sued. Pulling someone from a burning car is not something that should bankrupt the rescuer.

    We need this for e-space.

    If you find a flaw and report it to appropriate people, you should not become a target because you made someone look bad.

    The alternative is to never report a flaw. And no, the argument that you can do it anonymously is bullshit too, because people will fuck that up like they already do.

    --
    BMO

    1. Re:Good Samaritan Laws by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      The problem is legislation written by idiots, abused by lawyers (but I repeat myself), and then the dance of arbitrary abuse performed by the judiciary. There is nothing so dangerous as poorly written law, and in my experience, almost all law is poorly written.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    2. Re:Good Samaritan Laws by bmo · · Score: 0

      Good Samaritan laws already work in meatspace. They are a proven concept.

      You're an idiot.

      --
      BMO

    3. Re:Good Samaritan Laws by arbiter1 · · Score: 1

      No one would looked bad if they didn't sue the guy, since this story wouldn't even been published but when they filed that suit against him now everyone knows how much of A-holes this company is to a person that saved them a massive PR nightmare.

    4. Re:Good Samaritan Laws by Relayman · · Score: 1

      Ironically, Good Samaritan laws in Ohio don't apply to health care professionals because they're supposed to know what to do.

      Translating to e-space, a security consultant could be liable to malpractice. However, this consultant still did the right thing, so there are no grounds for causing him trouble.

      --
      If I used a sig over again, would anyone notice?
    5. Re:Good Samaritan Laws by bmo · · Score: 2

      >No one would looked bad if they didn't sue the guy,

      You misunderstand what I meant about who is looking bad. This is the result of someone within the organization attempting to cover his ass by blaming the messenger and convincing the lawyers that it's not his fault.

      Because if he didn't, he'd look bad to his bosses.

      That's why all this is happening, and since shit rolls downhill and there is no protection for people like the researcher, guess who gets squashed like a bug by the corp?

      >Flaw
      >Researcher points it out
      >Blame researcher
      >Everyone happy but researcher. He twists in the wind.

      --
      BMO

    6. Re:Good Samaritan Laws by MechaStreisand · · Score: 0

      Below, someone pointed out:

      "Ironically, Good Samaritan laws in Ohio don't apply to health care professionals because they're supposed to know what to do."

      Who's the idiot? You are. Fuck off and die.

      --
      Disclaimer: IANAL. This post is, however, legal advice, and creates an attorney-client relationship.
    7. Re:Good Samaritan Laws by MatthiasF · · Score: 1

      They shouldn't even consider Good Samaritan laws or unlawful access to a computer system.

      The company seems to have offered all of it's users access to other user's information. The guy didn't hack through any security, the company gave him access indirectly.

      It's like he received a retirement package for another person but had his name on the label, or a bank using the same key for every security deposit box and you just on whim tried your key in someone else' box.

      You didn't know you would be exposed, you did something out of curiosity that seemed obvious and wouldn't amount to anything.

      So, it seems the onus is on the company, not the user, even though the company seems to think it has the right to bully the guy to keep their snafu hidden from it's other customers.

    8. Re:Good Samaritan Laws by shentino · · Score: 1

      They're not idiots.

      They just don't work for the voters that supposedly are supposed to decide whether or not they get into office.

      It's an issue of loyalty, not competence.

    9. Re:Good Samaritan Laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      your fucking retarded. prick

    10. Re:Good Samaritan Laws by cshark · · Score: 1

      Sometimes, it really seems like no good deed goes unpunished.

      If one of the good guys gives you information to help you fix your systems when they're obviously broken, and you bite their hand... the consequence is that fewer good guys will be willing to do it. So, if you follow this slippery slope argument to it's conclusion; you're pretty much left with the bad guys being the only people who are willing to break into your obviously broken server. And, then there are no warnings. There are no second chances. There is no help.

      The researcher may have broken the letter of the law by doing it, but I don't think the law was intended for people who are trying to help. You apply it to them, and you really screw yourself. It amazes me that anyone could get free advice from a random person who found a problem, and take legal action. What the fuck was FSSTS thinking?

      --

      This signature has Super Cow Powers

    11. Re:Good Samaritan Laws by bmo · · Score: 1

      How about you take your "HURR GUBMINT CAN'T POSSIBLY DO ANYTHING GOOD WHATSOEVER" and shove it squarely up your ass, you psychopath.

      I've heard assholes like you my entire life and I prefer civilization instead of warlords.

      Go fuck yourself with a glass shard.

      --
      BMO

    12. Re:Good Samaritan Laws by ATMAvatar · · Score: 1

      That's not entirely true. Rendering CPR to an unconscious victim can and has gotten people sued.

      --
      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    13. Re:Good Samaritan Laws by kqs · · Score: 1

      So, the government passes a law making hacking illegal; a company designs an insecure web portal; the company sues a researcher who tips them off about their insecurity; and you think it's the government's fault? Huh? How does that make any sense at all?

      Sure, the law is likely imperfect (though I have no idea how to write a law to punish hackers and absolve researchers 100%), but I somehow think that the company may bear a wee bit of responsibility for this.

      "Squirrels built a nest in my chimney again. Damn government!"

    14. Re:Good Samaritan Laws by geekoid · · Score: 1

      where? hmmm? where? cite?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    15. Re:Good Samaritan Laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that there is a law or saying that there ought to be a law about "Good Samaritan", what is basically a common sense measure to be left alone, is a sign that lawyers have infiltrated the society to make money no matter what anyone does/doesn't.

    16. Re:Good Samaritan Laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a reason we have good Samaritan laws.

      Good Samaritan laws are laws or acts protecting those who choose to serve and tend to others who are injured or ill. They are intended to reduce bystanders' hesitation to assist, for fear of being sued or prosecuted for unintentional injury or wrongful death

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law

      Ive read your posts before. You're better then this.

    17. Re:Good Samaritan Laws by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Does that apply to the US too? In a first aid lesson I was taught not to help Americans because the US doesn't indemnify helpers in the same way Germany does (where anything short of gross negligence is protected in a first aid situation, as long as you try to help you can't be sued).

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    18. Re:Good Samaritan Laws by Loveless62 · · Score: 1
      I don't have citations for ATMAvatar, but, in the United States, Good Samaritan laws vary from state to state. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law:

      The details of good Samaritan laws/acts in various jurisdictions vary, including who is protected from liability and in what circumstances. Not all jurisdictions provide protection to laypersons, in those cases only protecting trained personnel, such as doctors or nurses. [emphasis added by me]

    19. Re:Good Samaritan Laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that medical professionals are specifically exempted by good Samaritan laws exposing them to wrongful death lawsuits if anything happens to said patient regardless of equipment availability.

    20. Re:Good Samaritan Laws by bmo · · Score: 1

      You were told wrong.

      If the person is unconscious, the consent is implicit.

      >Told not to help Americans

      Give your instructor a slap.

      --
      BMO

  8. so a typo is now unlawful access? by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    He had increased a numerical value in a URL used to access his statement by one digit and was granted access to a former colleagues' account.

    but any ways that is just like having a open door and all you need to do is to go though the door next to the that is your door.

    1. Re:so a typo is now unlawful access? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So if I follow your analogy (and ignore your inability to form a coherent sentence) if my neighbor leaves their door open and I wander into their apartment and rifle through their stuff, I'm not trespassing?

    2. Re:so a typo is now unlawful access? by blair1q · · Score: 2

      Accidentally walking into a neighbor's apartment is an accident.

      Doing it repeatedly because now you know they leave the door unlocked is a crime.

    3. Re:so a typo is now unlawful access? by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      It's not even that it's more like if a hotel had a view a bill system and my miss keying it you where able to see others bills.

    4. Re:so a typo is now unlawful access? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not when they regularly leave their apartment unlocked with the intention of having all the world browse on through to whatever they leave unlocked.

    5. Re:so a typo is now unlawful access? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Australia had such weak computer security laws in the past that they had to make any attempt i.e. URL rewrite equal to more creative attempts.
      Add in the reality that Australian lawyers are well trained, the old trespass like laws did not really hold up well in court.
      So federal law is now very clear- don't play with other peoples computer, data, url ect.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    6. Re:so a typo is now unlawful access? by DarwinSurvivor · · Score: 1

      Or like the hotel giving you your room key and you going to the wrong door and the key works. Further testing shows ALL the locks are the same. I'm honestly wondering how many hotels/motels might actually be vulnerable to this...

    7. Re:so a typo is now unlawful access? by doesnothingwell · · Score: 1

      Accidentally walking into a neighbor's apartment is an accident. Doing it repeatedly because now you know they leave the door unlocked is a crime.

      It's more like every room can be unlocked with its room number. Security like that is priceless, dare them to take you to court.

      --
      They can have my command prompt when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.
    8. Re:so a typo is now unlawful access? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Poor example.

      This is more akin to trying to walk into every neighbor's apartment to see if they lock the door, then letting the building management know so they can take care of the problem.

      You're example is trying to insinuate he did this repeatedly to the same party and with malicious intent.

    9. Re:so a typo is now unlawful access? by Col+Bat+Guano · · Score: 1

      If I was in his position I would say that I was showing someone how secure First State Superannuation's service is - "Look you can even change any of these digits and nothing will happen!...Hmmm.... that's strange!". I would mention looking at many of them.

    10. Re:so a typo is now unlawful access? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Not many, the room access is programmed on the mag stripe. If they gave you a master key by accident though, then it would be possible. But even here, he opened the door, said "oh shit", took a picture of the opened door and brought it to the front desk. He didn't go in and poke through the person's stuff except to point out that the door was wide open.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  9. Turn a White hat into a Black hat.. by Moheeheeko · · Score: 1

    .. just add unnecissary litigation!

  10. information source? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The linked article only states that one account was accessed in this way, nothing about a batch file or 500 accounts....

  11. Welcome to Wonderland by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 2

    “Whilst you have indicated that your actions were motivated by an attempt to show that it is possible for a wrongdoer to obtain unauthorised access to Pillar's systems, your actions may themselves be considered a breach of section 308H of the Crimes Act 1900 (NSW) and section 478.

    What the hell kind of logic is that? If this stands then every independent security researcher ought to leave Down Under at once and leave them to find out that White Hats != Black Hats through direct and painful experience. What a bunch of jokers.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    1. Re:Welcome to Wonderland by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or they should start researching on demand instead of attacking random servers. Then they might even get paid (without having to resort to extortion).

    2. Re:Welcome to Wonderland by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Typical conservative new jerk. How abut you educate yourself? naw, facts will be contrary to your belief.

      "Google may say Don't Be Evil, but how do such flaming Liberals define Evil to start with?"

      http://www.google.com/about/corporate/company/tenthings.html

      fucking troll asshat.

    3. Re:Welcome to Wonderland by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      That is an insult to all trolls. Trolls, like eh...., are a necessary evil. They liven up many a staunch forum, a good troll can be a real asset. Where do you get your best belly laughs, especially in a languishing forum? Trolls.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    4. Re:Welcome to Wonderland by deniable · · Score: 1

      I wonder if NSW does the 'accessory / facilitator' thing where if you help the criminal you get charged with the same crime. The provider can be a co-defendant.

  12. Critical information missing in TFA by Beerdood · · Score: 1

    The summary says that he "run a batch file to access 500 accounts", but there's no mention of that in TFA. According to that article "Webster notified his colleague and contacted Adam Jarrett of Pillar hours later and informed them of the vulnerability and that he had not accessed other accounts or retained customer data."

    So which is it? This is a pretty critical part of the story that seems to be missing. The linked article seems to indicate that the researcher simply found the one issue and quickly reported it to them. Summary says "the researcher had run a batch file to access around 500 accounts". Well did he did he do it or not? And how would the company have found out about that anyway? I doubt he'd disclose that information, and his computer wasn't seized.

    --
    Global warming and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking number of pirates - Gospel of the FSM
    1. Re:Critical information missing in TFA by julesh · · Score: 1

      And how would the company have found out about that anyway?

      Theoretically, if he had, his requests would be in their access logs...

    2. Re:Critical information missing in TFA by RichMan · · Score: 1

      "run a batch file" and simply modifying a URL likely means something like a simple script around wget or something equally trivial

      for (i=0;i500;i++)
            wget -O dump${i} http:///url/long/user=${i}
      end

    3. Re:Critical information missing in TFA by ark1 · · Score: 2

      The PDF has a sentence which hints that he may have submitted a proof of concept that accessed approx 568 statements.

    4. Re:Critical information missing in TFA by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

      568 accounts to be exact.
      http://i.haymarket.net.au/News/20111014034645_FSS-Solicitors_Redacted.pdf

      Try clicking a few of the links in TFA next time. Or were you surprised that the summary actually included more than just a paraphrasing of the original article?

  13. plausible deniability by buybuydandavis · · Score: 2

    Companies don't want to know. Literally. If they know, it increases their liability for doing nothing in the event of a problem.

    1. Re:plausible deniability by Joe+U · · Score: 1

      After the first letter, kindly explain that you're going to take out a full page advertisement explaining how company doesn't care about user data. Make sure to mention identity theft.

    2. Re:plausible deniability by greg1104 · · Score: 1

      Make sure you're ready for some time in jail for blackmail, too, if you follow that route. The only thing worse than reporting this sort of data the nice way is to report it in a way that's threatening.

    3. Re:plausible deniability by deniable · · Score: 2

      No need for advertising. Just copy ASIC, the privacy commissioner and some MPs into the correspondence. If that goes nowhere get a bored journalist to ask the government bodies what they're doing about this issue. Cheap, effective and puts the heat on people with legal protection.

    4. Re:plausible deniability by Joe+U · · Score: 1

      Make sure you're ready for some time in jail for blackmail, too, if you follow that route.

      Last time I checked, blackmail involves money. 'I'll tell lots of people about your horrible security record if you threaten to sue me' is not blackmail.

    5. Re:plausible deniability by greg1104 · · Score: 1

      You should check again. Blackmail is threatening to release (normally true) information if a demand is not met. The nature of the demand doesn't matter; just because it's only "fix your security" doesn't make it not blackmail.

      Never forget that there are far more laws aimed to jail criminals who threaten people than there are ones to protect honest security people. Given the small number of boxes activity is placed into by the courts, the odds you're going to end up in one of the criminal ones far exceeds the odds you'll be recognized as someone helping them. Talk with Randal Schwartz one day if you think otherwise.

  14. As they always say.. by mewsenews · · Score: 1

    No good deed goes unpunished

    1. Re:As they always say.. by Relayman · · Score: 0

      Dup. Mod down.

      --
      If I used a sig over again, would anyone notice?
  15. When did Australians turn into Americans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought Australians were no nonsense people that didn't put up with (or use) bullshit like this.

    1. Re:When did Australians turn into Americans? by harvey+the+nerd · · Score: 1

      Aussies have their own regulatory Wonderland. Some even greatly exceed US agencies' foolishness. Perhaps the larger percentage of convict content more recently :)

    2. Re:When did Australians turn into Americans? by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "I thought Australians were no nonsense people that didn't put up with (or use) bullshit like this."

      Everybody thinks they are "no nonsense people that didn't put up with (or use) bullshit like this". Many are mistaken.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  16. Service Guarantees Citizenship by mounthood · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The rule should be: Disclosure Guarantees Immunity

    This would lead to some abuse, but it would also lead to disclosure, which is the only way we're going to develop a secure internet. A federal agency could take the reports to keep both sides honest. Immunity could be granted only for what's reported so if people leave something out to hide their malfeasance it wouldn't be covered under immunity. Reports could even be done anonymously if there's an intervening agency.

    --
    tomorrow who's gonna fuss
    1. Re:Service Guarantees Citizenship by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is there a reputable organization you can send vulnerabilities to that will act as the middle man to avoid these types of situations? If not, why isn't there?

    2. Re:Service Guarantees Citizenship by giorgist · · Score: 1

      So if I disclose all your bank password, would that make me immune ?
      I agree in part, but it is a problem.

      If as a delivery dude, I find your key under the front door mat, can I make a 1000 copies and drop them off all over the city with your address to teach you to be safer ?

      I am genuinely asking, I don't have the answer.

      If I simply return your key, and you keep putting it under the mat, then what do I do.

    3. Re:Service Guarantees Citizenship by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      No, it should be this:

      "Unauthorised access, with full disclosure, and without intent to illegally make use of accessed data, should not be illegal."

      Say for instance, somebody pen tested sony before the PSN hack-a-thon, pulled some demonstration data to prove the exploit was live, and forwarded it to sony's IT staff, asking them to inform the impacted users of the breach and to please fix the exploit.

      That should be legal.

      If they did the above, but neglected to mention that they vacuumed up 10,000 credit cards and identities and sold them on the internet, and then reported-- THAT should not receive any form of legal protection.

      Criminal intent MUST be required.

    4. Re:Service Guarantees Citizenship by blizz017 · · Score: 1

      So if I disclose all your bank password, would that make me immune ? I agree in part, but it is a problem. If as a delivery dude, I find your key under the front door mat, can I make a 1000 copies and drop them off all over the city with your address to teach you to be safer ? I am genuinely asking, I don't have the answer. If I simply return your key, and you keep putting it under the mat, then what do I do.

      That's not what he meant; If you disclose the vulnerability that exposes his passwords, you're immune. If you exploit the vulnerability and disclose the passwords than you're not immune from the action of disclosing data improperly. You don't have to disclose the passwords to prove the vulnerability. In your little example, the vulnerability would be the key under the front door mat. The exploit would be using that key and/or making copies of the key. Proper disclosure would dictate that you notify him that his key is under the front door mat and give him time to respond and remedy the situation after a period of time (say 30 days) if he ignores the vulnerability or the vulnerability is remedied, than disclose the vulnerability. Improper disclosure would be letting the public at large know the day you found the key; you don't need to make copies of the key to prove or disclose the vulnerability.. it adds nothing and just makes you a dick. In the reality of this case; the guy didn't disclose any customer data to the public at large (at least from what I gather), and he stated that he will delete any data resulting from the breach and would even allow the company to verify as such. Following the whole "Disclosure Guarantees Immunity" philosophy this guy should be in the clear. Data access is going to occur at times in vulnerability research, what you do with that data is what should determine whether you get immunity or not.

    5. Re:Service Guarantees Citizenship by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This situation is significantly altered if it's not the key to your own house, but the key to the bank vault with everyone in town's money in it.

    6. Re:Service Guarantees Citizenship by Rennt · · Score: 1

      Bad analogy. If I choose to leave my key under my door mat, that is none of your god damn business.

      Now, if I am a locksmith and I leave copies of all my client's keys just lying around unsecured, that's a different story.

    7. Re:Service Guarantees Citizenship by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is like finding the key and returning it, and being charged with breaking and entering for your trouble.

  17. My letter to Maged by gavron · · Score: 1

    It took a lot of work to delete all references to "ass" and "douchebag".
    Ehud

    Dear Maged,

    I read with interest your letter to Patrick Webster copied at
    http://i.haymarket.net.au/News/20111014034645_FSS-Solicitors_Redacted.pdf

    Mr. Webster informed your client of a security flaw in their software that allows
    access to members' confidential and financial information. He did so in accordance
    with accepted business principles of Full and Open Disclosure.

    Your response shows that your law firm clearly lacks an understanding of the law,
    the facts, and of technology. I'll use an analogy to make these complicated
    ideas seem simpler. If I spot your garage door is wide open, and I enter, say
    "hello," and let you know that you left it open... that is not trespassing. It is
    a good Samaritan effort to inform you. Your bullying email is not the right
    response.

    Your bullying letter to Mr. Webster strongly suggests that you need to get an
    expert who understands the technology.

    That way you won't come across like a ludite, and have yourself, your law firm,
    and your client, show yourselves to be total head-in-the-sand ostriches. Your
    client was notified about a security flaw, and now wants the security researcher
    to pay for them to fix it? Absurd.

    It's one thing to be uneducated. That can be corrected. It's quite another
    to be uninformed and open one's mouth and prove it. You've done the latter.

    Best and kindest regards.

    Ehud Gavron
    Tucson AZ USA

    1. Re:My letter to Maged by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might want to correct the spelling of "ludite" before you send that.

    2. Re:My letter to Maged by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't a ludite be someone who takes Quaaludes? That might apply.

    3. Re:My letter to Maged by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

      You might also want to read the law before you accuse them of being ignorant of it. They are absolutely correct that his actions violate the law. I doubt the police will pursue it unless there is some malicious intent shown.

      http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s308h.html

    4. Re:My letter to Maged by ark1 · · Score: 1

      There is certainly a great number of important details we are missing in this story but as much as I would like to defend this guy it appears to me he clearly stepped the line if he indeed tested with 568 statements. Your analogy in this case is not accurate as he didn't had to access 568 different accounts to prove his point. A better analogy could be something like this. If you find a way to access all hotel rooms without proper keys, do you have to physically open 568 rooms to prove the owner that you know how to bypass his door security? I don't know the law in Australia but it is possible that this institution will now have to contact each affected account and inform owners about this unauthorized access even if the offending party had no malicious intentions. That is not good for your PR and will cost them $$$. Without having more details it is difficult to say more but it looks to me like both sides could have handled this in a better manner.

    5. Re:My letter to Maged by gavron · · Score: 1

      You make a very good point, as does the PP. My thinking is "he made a database query" and got back 568 results, and shared the availability of that data with the Fund (the lawyer's client). I don't suspect he automated a system to do "568 queries" as that number is not only overbroad, but not a rational number to choose.

      All analogies are flawed. They analogize the real part to a false part. They all break down somewhere :) I recognize mine is not perfect. The point I was making, which the analogy was meant to bolster is that the researcher (Patrick) did them a favor by noticing them of a failure in the security model. That he got access to data [that he shouldn't] in the process is clearly not the goal nor relevant.

      However, I'm sure we'll hear from lawyers and Australian lawyers as this plays out. I REALLY HOPE it doesn't get hushed up and settled quietly. This has the obvious possible ramifications of CHILLING future open disclosure of security flaws, and THAT is worse than any of this issue.

      Regards,

      Ehud

    6. Re:My letter to Maged by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "ludite"?

      That would be pronounced l-you-dite, presumably, but what does it mean?

      The word is "luddite". Spellcheck motherfucker, do you use it? (You should, when writing a formal email of such a nature.)

  18. Sounds like a job for the EFF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Ask the EFF to write up an internationally-binding contract, in which a company would make a legal commitment not to harass, annoy or otherwise harsh the mellow of any security researcher who provides them information in good faith. It should be written so as to side-step any possible laws to the contrary. I.e., commit the company to indemnify & hold harmless, choose not to prosecute, etc.

    Any company who signs this is likely to get security assistance. Those who do not sign, could not expect such assistance.

    Now, who the counter-party would be I can't tell you.

    1. Re:Sounds like a job for the EFF by shentino · · Score: 2

      Unfortunately statutes trump contracts.

    2. Re:Sounds like a job for the EFF by Dogtanian · · Score: 2

      Ask the EFF to write up an internationally-binding contract, in which a company would make a legal commitment not to harass [etc] any security researcher who provides them information in good faith. [..] Any company who signs this is likely to get security assistance. Those who do not sign, could not expect such assistance.

      With respect, this is naive and assumes that such companies *want* your assistance. I'm sure that a significant proportion would rather that you STFU about any inconvenient vulnerabilities which would cause them a lot of hassle to fix, probably make them look bad (people do *not* like being made to look incompetent, even when they are) and I suspect, from a legal point-of-view, be all-round more convenient to not (officially) know about.

      If you persist in trying to get them to do something about this (regardless of whether or not it would help their customers), they *will* find a way of getting back at you and dissuading others from doing the same thing. To be honest, that would appear to be the most likely explanation in this case, and going by some of the comments posted here, it seems to work.

      Of course, such dissuaded responses appear to forget that the people you're really helping are more likely the innocent customers of this company (who have no idea how lousy the company is) as much as the company themselves- who would probably rather you kept quiet. So saying "fuck 'em" and letting the company reap the rewards of their own incompetence misses the point.

      The primary aim is to address the problem and get them to fix it. While ideally this would be done in a way that minimises harm to the company/people responsible (as "punishing" them isn't- or shouldn't- be the aim), one *has* to assume that their response may not be positive, and make the #1 priority to protect oneself from a potentially hostile response.

      This may not be natural for geek-types who see fixing the problem as most important and think they are doing those involved a "favour"- and being more rational- by being more direct, but it is *not* your job to risk being crucified and smeared by some company whose toes they think you stood on. If that means doing things anonymously and less directly then that has to be the way you do it.

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    3. Re:Sounds like a job for the EFF by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      And if the company breaches this contract, who is going to sue them? The researcher who isn't a party to the contract, and thus has no standing to sue for breach of contract?

      The idea is a nice thought, but not really enforceable.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    4. Re:Sounds like a job for the EFF by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      "With respect, this is naive and assumes that such companies *want* your assistance. I'm sure that a significant proportion would rather that you STFU about any inconvenient vulnerabilities which would cause them a lot of hassle to fix, probably make them look bad (people do *not* like being made to look incompetent, even when they are)" I found a vulnerability in a web portal that would shut down an entire line of business for a certain "company," and because of the dynamic you mentioned, it is still unreported to this day. Oddly enough as coincidences are, I was put in charge of installing a major security appliance for that system shortly after discovering the vulnerability. To this day, with the vulnerability still in tact (and the security appliance is still not in place because of the difficulty in actually switching systems), and after gaining notoriety and the trust of the people responsible for the system, I still have not reported it. The security appliance is capable, in theory, of curtailing the problem but it would take significant testing and development since it lies outside the domain of the said security appliance. Long story short, blatant and absolute incompetence is the reason for the security hole. For me to document and report the problem to the appropriate people would risk my political standing, so I opt not to report it. In government institutions when you report things like this they will leave it as it is, and you will soon afterwards find doors closing on you. To be honest, I have reported it verbally to others not directly responsible for the system, but they choose to the let the other department hang itself (they enjoy seeing that). Witness government in-fighting 101, frankly, I'm tired of it.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    5. Re:Sounds like a job for the EFF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had this happen at work, a vulnerability that would literally risk lives. Of course the shark (malignant management type) in charge of that system wanted to try to dump on me for reporting it even though I had done so discreetly. So, I went to one of the other sharks that likes making big stinks about other manager's problems and let her know there where points to be scored. She spread the word to the others. The feeding frenzy ensued. And, now not only is the problem fixed. But, I am not catching any more crap for doing my job from her and her toadies.

      Yeah, the games suck. There are often people's lives, their family, and well being at stake. But, people from all walks will bend you over and fuck you if you try to ignore or shut down the power games and do things the right way. I do not like these fuckwits. But, the majority of the population seems to think that abusive game playing dumb-asses in charge are _the_ bee's knees. Thank god not all management is like that.

    6. Re:Sounds like a job for the EFF by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      I found a vulnerability in a web portal that would shut down an entire line of business for a certain "company," and because of the dynamic you mentioned, it is still unreported to this day.

      If it's something that would affect their customers, then it may still be wise to report it *anonymously* and untracably (*) in a way that gives those responsible a chance to correct it but leaves open the possibility of informing those higher up and/or other authorities or news sources if this doesn't happen.

      OTOH, if the consequences would primarily be on the business, you have to decide whether it's worth your time and risk.

      (*) Clearly this would have been easier for you *before* you were personally involved with the company, though there would still be the risk of them identifying you through (e.g.) weblogs, so you would have had to mitigate that risk, e.g. by waiting long enough that they couldn't reliably associate you with it, etc.

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
  19. What is needed... by TimothyDavis · · Score: 1

    What is needed is a proxy organization. Something like Wikileaks, who can take from the white hats, and manage disclosure to the outside (company affected, etc). This way a white hat can report issues to the proxy with less risk of being prosecuted or sued by idiot entities.

    1. Re:What is needed... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This will work very well if they allow black hats to bid against the company and keep proceeds from the winner.

      The company takes a cut, passes the rest on to the researcher.

      True, it blurs the distinction between black hat and white hat, but it also provides a lot of incentive for current black-hats to become whiter-hats.

    2. Re:What is needed... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      or, simply:
      Go to a library computer, create a new hotmail account, and send all the information to the IT staff, CIO, CEO. of the company.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:What is needed... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have that, it's called anonymity.
      Use tor or some kind of proxy to email them or whatever. Bonus points for spoofing the "from" field so that they think it's from their own security people.

    4. Re:What is needed... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry to reply to my own post, but

      The key here is putting a fair market value on the information.

      As we have read many times here on /., the problem is that companies do not value security high enough. A few 'fines from the free market' may be the incentive they need to properly value their security group.

      This is much better than an insurance scheme, as it is more dynamic than any insurance company could be in keeping up with the current state of security research.

      It also scales well : more data online, more security researchers with incentive to find security flaws. As those flaws become harder to find (utopian thought), the lesser skilled people find other ways to spend their time, as the security business is less profitable for them.

      This must have been proposed here many times before ...

  20. Phone company by woodsbury · · Score: 1

    Reminds me of a phone company that we looked into for a security class at university (I'm Australian). They allowed access to anyone's account balance simply by calling a number and entering their mobile number. The system provided no other means of verifying your identity. They were investigated by the Privacy Commission and were found to he in breach of the Privacy Act. I can't imagine this company cannot also be.

    1. Re:Phone company by bmo · · Score: 1

      That's probably why they want the actual physical computer, to make the evidence go away.

      --
      BMO

  21. No good deed goes unpunished by ipv6_128_lgwb · · Score: 1

    No good deed goes unpunished.
              - I wish I would stop finding this to be true.

    1. Re:No good deed goes unpunished by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Confirmation bias.

      There are millions of good deeds that go one every day; however since nothing is newsworthy about it you don't hear about it.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  22. Virtue has no reward, only punishment. by couchslug · · Score: 1

    If I were a "security researcher" I wouldn't offer anything to anyone unsolicited. Fuck 'em. Fuck ALL of 'em.

    The only way to punish these cocksuckers is to NOT look for any credit, expose their vulns, then laugh quietly as they are exploited.

    --
    "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    1. Re:Virtue has no reward, only punishment. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disagree. Even the most diligent programmers will believe they have discovered flaws in their work, look at some of the more persistent problems in your favourite *nix kernel for examples.

      A bounty system administered by a combination of a professional association and government leglislation covering all on line banking, financial services and all government services holding personal data (pretty much every government section) is my preferred option.

      The occasional redacted wikileaks style disclosure to keep above group on their toes, especially when the exploited service is not fixed promptly.

      The issue I am most interested is the name of the fund. I will pull my funds, that will send the greatest message.

  23. Suppose you live in an appartment. by Chirs · · Score: 1

    You discover that the lock on your apartment door is broken, so you check your neighbour and his is broken too, then you check everyone on the hallway and find out that they're all unlocked because the locks are broken, so you report it to the landlord.

    Would you expect to be sued for trespassing on all of your neighbours?

    1. Re:Suppose you live in an appartment. by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      well the landlord can sue you to cover the costs so it's blame the person who found the broken locks.

    2. Re:Suppose you live in an appartment. by blair1q · · Score: 2

      Why would I check my neighbor's lock because mine is broken?

      Let's make it a closer analogy:

      I walk up to my door, open it, and discover it's not my apartment. Oops. It's my neighbor's and it should have been locked.

      Then I think, what about the others? So I start jiggling knobs, and a cop walks around the corner and catches me at it.

      You think he'll believe me when I say I was just checking locks? And was I right to try to find all the unlocked doors on the floor just because my neighbor's is unlocked?

    3. Re:Suppose you live in an appartment. by fluffy99 · · Score: 2

      You discover that the lock on your apartment door is broken, so you check your neighbour and his is broken too, then you check everyone on the hallway and find out that they're all unlocked because the locks are broken, so you report it to the landlord.

      Would you expect to be sued for trespassing on all of your neighbours?

      If you just turned the knob and didn't open the door, then no. If you entered the apartment and wrote down descriptions of their furnishing to prove you'd been there, they'd probably charge you with trespassing. No different here. He should have just reported the vulnerability instead of writing a script to download personal information from other accounts.

      Under many US laws, he committed a crime. If the info he downloaded was subject to HIPPA or other regulatory laws, the company has the right to subpeona the computer he used so they can assess and properly report the information that he compromised.

      Here is the link to the law which he broke:
      http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s308h.html

      The stipulations to delete all the compromised data and a pledge to not attempt to gain unauthorized access again is pretty appropriate. The statements about reserving the right to inspect his computer or seek damages are in the letter simply to make it clear that they have not absolved him of responsibility and may want proof that he indeed deleted all the data. With all that said, I think it's silly for them to ask to access his computer to verify the data has been deleted. They have no way of knowing if he made copies or even if that's the computer he used.

    4. Re:Suppose you live in an appartment. by Onymous+Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's your idea of a closer analogy? I daresay you are biased and painting things with deceptive license.

      Let's make an honestly closer analogy:

      When opening my apartment door I notice that my key has the apartment number written on it in a special way. Being a locksmith, I get an idea: Does the fancy lock just read the number to determine if the key's good? Because that would be bad. In the same style, I write a different number on my key, the number of my neighbor's apartment, and try it there. It works. We have a problem. I check the whole floor -- all vulnerable to this silliness.

      I call up my locksmith friend and tell him how stupid this is. We have a good laugh and talk about what I should do. The next day I call the apartment manager, explain we've got a real problem, and I tell him what I did. I even walked his handyman through the steps so they could clearly understand. The manager has the problem fixed the next day. Job done, right?

      The thing is, the super sends the cops to talk with me. With my having been a locksmith contractor to the same police force, it went okay, but it left me shaken. I mean, I talked with the super directly and gave him all my contact info. He knows who I am. Why send the cops?

      Later on, the apartment manager sends a notice to everyone in the building, telling them there was a security problem, but it's fixed, and he sincerely apologizes. In particular he says:

      It has come to our attention that a resident of our building devised a way to open your door. Access to your apartment was limited and rectified immediately.

      Please note: This incident was not the result of a targeted attempt to access your apartment. This resident alerted us to the ability to open your lock and advised that your door was only opened when testing the security of his own apartment. The member advised that he has not taken pictures of your apartment or taken any items.

      And now they've sent me a letter telling me they had to inform the police about how I got into the other apartments because it could be a criminal act; that tell me they've locked me out of my apartment; they say they had to spend money to fix this whole lock problem because of me — the nerve! — they say they have the right to get the money it took to fix their problem from me — what! — they say that they want complete access my keys, pens, desk, and tools; and they say that they want me never to look for security problems in the building again.

      Your darn tootin'! If this is the thanks I get! Some people!

    5. Re:Suppose you live in an appartment. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I would. That doesn't make it right, but unfortunately I would EXPECT to be sued.

    6. Re:Suppose you live in an appartment. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      This is a good example of why anonymity is important in any society. For there to be real freedom to legally research and to speak there must be a way of doing it that does not expose you to negative social repercussions. The best thing in this situation would be anonymous disclosure of the flaw to everyone as soon as possible. For all you know someone else might know about the problem and be exploiting it already.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    7. Re:Suppose you live in an appartment. by Onymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      The best thing in this situation would be anonymous disclosure of the flaw to everyone as soon as possible.

      Everyone? What about anonymous (or pseudonymous) communication with the people who should fix the problem, determining a reasonable time line for a fix, and setting a date for public disclosure?

      In this situation, maybe just report the problem to First State Super and tell them they have 5 days before you leak the problem to the security lists and press.

    8. Re:Suppose you live in an appartment. by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      If you just turned the knob and didn't open the door

      Well, to be really sure of the vulnerability, you would have to push just a little bit to show that not just the knob is turning, but door opens too. What if the lock (and latch) is designed in such a way that in some cases of wrong key, knob turns but door doesn't open?

      Similarly, to be fully sure that personal information is accessible in this way, he would have to get the information. No way to prove vulnerability otherwise. E.g. maybe the web server allowed access but at database level there might be a VPD which will not give you the data?

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    9. Re:Suppose you live in an appartment. by blair1q · · Score: 1

      No, we don't have a problem other than that you think you're the building super all of a sudden.

      By deliberately altering your key and opening your neighbor's lock, you have committed a crime. It doesn't matter that you were "just trying to help."

      Unless there's something in your state's law that says that "just trying to help" is a defense, it's not.

      The right thing to do when you noticed the properties of the key was to bring them to the attention of someone who had the authority to test your hypothesis.

  24. Utter lack of understanding the real problem here by cdrguru · · Score: 2

    The problem is, the guy admits to accessing their system and obtaining documents that he should not have been able to get. He says "Here are 500 samples".

    What is the first thing that should occur to someone? Well, how about if he accessed 1000 and is planning on ransoming off the information of the 500 he didn't tell anyone about? Why do you think they want to see his computer? Unfortunately, anyone clever enough to do this would have moved the other 500 somewhere isolated that they would have to tear his house apart to get. Like on a microSD card sewn into a stuffed animal.

    See, he has zero credibility here. He can say "But I only took 500! I swear it!" and it does no good. Even searching his house doesn't generate any credibility, it only says they didn't find what they were looking for. Checking his computer only proves that if he has criminal intent that he isn't stupid about it. Since many (most?) criminals are stupid, not finding something on the computer actually does say something ... just not much.

    The real question is how much would other records be worth to the subject of those records and how much would it be worth on the open market? If you could take a record and turn it into some cash - presumably by drawing on the assets of the subject of the record - then you have a pretty clear idea of the worth. Even if the value was only privacy there might be some monetary value that you could get from the records. Then you have to either make the records irrelevant or you have to watch this guy for the rest of his life to see if he suddenly comes into a lot of money.

  25. Re:As the old idiom goes: rule 285 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Rule of Acquisition #285 I believe.

  26. Pissweak Legislation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The New South Wales Crimes Act clearly states that "Unauthorised access, modification or impairment" requires "intent to commit serious indictable offence" (Part 6, 308C) however it could be argued that he accessed "restricted data" because "restricted data means data held in a computer, being data to which access is restricted by an access control system associated with a function of the computer." (Part 6, 308H) but when it comes to court there are so many loopholes to get out of that it's very ineffective (Eg: No Published Data Access Policies to define "unauthorised", whether or not it was communicated properly and whether or not simply changing a number in a URL even constitutes executing an unauthorised computer function) even then, "Unauthorised access to or modification of restricted data held in computer" is a summary offence. Pillar can go suck his balls.

  27. Public disclosure by Charliemopps · · Score: 2

    This is why you make your findings public. Stupid companies like this deserve the result.

  28. Making one rethink their good deeds. by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Less than a year ago I found a similar (though not quite as grievous) flaw in a Kickstarter-like website when I mistyped the URL to my own profile page. I grabbed a handful of info with it; just a few random accounts to proof-of-concept automated grabbing, the technique for which I made note of in an e-mail to their support address. Also, I got the e-mail address of user #1 (unsurprisingly, the implementer), whom I CCed the support e-mail. After a few e-mails of discussion about the precise nature of the flaw, I received a very grateful thank-you from the owner of the company and the head of IT, and the flaw was fixed within the hour despite it being the dead of night in their HQ's time zone. When I see stuff like this, though, it makes me wonder if the next time I trip across something like this I should do the same thing.

    1. Re:Making one rethink their good deeds. by isilrion · · Score: 1

      I had a similar experience. In high school, I managed to get the /etc/shadow file of one of my ISPs servers (it was a misplaced backup). Not believing what I just found, I decoded a few passwords, tried them, and immediately emailed them (the file, where it was, and the list of passwords I decoded) + my account and phone number. A couple of hours later I got a call from the CEO[1] thanking me for the report and telling me that they fixed the issue. And then he invited me for a tour of their offices to meet the IT staff and to a dinner party they were having.

      But now that I'm no longer in Cuba... I fear discovering/reporting a vulnerability and finding myself in the wrong end of a lawsuit.

      [1] We don't really have CEOs there... he was/is the top official.

  29. Should Know Better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The line between a cracker and an amateur "security researcher" is very thin indeed.

    This is why security professionals always obtain a service contract as the very first step.

    A service contract is an agreement between you and the other party; it details what services are to be performed, what disclosure (if any) will take place, who is responsible for damage in case that SQL injection goes horrifically wrong, how much you will be paid for your service, etc.

    It's one thing to haul somebody in front of a court and say, "He broke into our system!" when your defense is, "But, I was just trying to do a good deed!"
    It's another thing entirely when that defense is, "We agreed in advance that they would pay me to break in and write a report!"

  30. Better do a cavity search, for good measure. by FyberOptic · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Oh thank you sir for finding my wallet! Now please let me search your house to make sure you didn't take anything of mine."

    1. Re:Better do a cavity search, for good measure. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not only that, you must now follow me around in perpetuity to make sure I don't drop my wallet again!

  31. Re:Utter lack of understanding the real problem he by fluffy99 · · Score: 2

    They can't simply look at their server logs and see what pages were served up to his IP address?

  32. Businesses don't like rogues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Personally, I wouldn't try exploiting someone else's system without getting their permission in writing first, but then I couldn't exploit my way out of a paper bag so I guess it's a moot point.

  33. Re:Utter lack of understanding the real problem he by wierd_w · · Score: 2

    I can clearly see a need for the researcher to collect "unauthorized data".

    Say for instance, white hats had to pen test only their own systems. A whitehat determines that XYZ corp's client accounts package exhibits a vulnerability when $Foo conditions are true. He sends this finding to XYZ, and also to $MultinationalCorp who uses XYZ.

    $MultinationalCorp responds to the private disclosure, thanking them for the effort, and "affirming" that their implementation of XYZ client portal is not configured $Foo, and so does not have that vulnerability.

    Without directly testing $MultinationalCorp, and pulling some "secret sauce" as proof, $MultinationalCorp can simply deny, and do nothing. (Which is what they usually do.)

    This is why pulling some secret sauce is necessary, because it indisputibly shows that they are vulnerable. (Else, how would you get the secret sauce?)

    Then there is the issue of "how do you locally pen test your own copy of $ClientSoftware, when $ClientSoftware is not available for purchase because it is a totally homebrew solution that is not distributed outside of $MultinationalCorp?"

    The ONLY way to test the security of such a system is to test the live system. For the same reason above, you need to collect some secret sauce, otherwise they will just ignore the report and pretend you are a crank.

  34. And this by geekoid · · Score: 1

    ladies and gentlemen is why you put the vulnerability on the internet, anonymously.

    At least the fear of being exploited will put proper security in peoples mind...then eventually maybe we can get people who actually understand security in charge of security.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  35. Wrong.. sheeesh by geekoid · · Score: 1

    it's the age of the internet. There is no reason to be wrong about facts.
    http://www.ohiobar.org/Pages/LawYouCanUseDetail.aspx?itemID=477

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  36. Flaw demand come back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Next time I find a flaw and there will be a next time you will be the last to know not the first.

  37. Superannuation lawyer talking trash by fenris60 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In a previous life I worked for an Australian law firm in their financial services division (not Maged's firm thank god). From Maged's profile you can clearly see he is an expert in superannuation law http://www.minterellison.com/People/maged_girgis/. I can say, with 99% certainty, that he has no practical experience in how section 308H of the Crimes Act and section 478.1 of the Criminal Code Act work. I don't claim to either. But the modus operandi of these law firms is that when a big client comes in with a weird request they get a junior lawyer (or crack team of junior lawyers if the billing is low for that month) who doesn't know much about anything to do some "research" and draft a threatening letter based on a few hours of reading some textbooks and legal databases.

    It is possible that the fund does have a right to recover "costs incurred" under pure contract law, although you would have to read the terms and conditions of whatever product Mr Jarrett has with the fund very carefully. But I would think they should be more worried with Mr Jarrett reporting them to the Australian Privacy Commissioner for breach of the privacy principles in relation to the funds obligations to keep personal information secure. I also wouldn't rule out a breach of standards set by APRA (Australia's banking regulator).

    Another funny thing to note is that at the rates which Minter Ellison charges, the cost of getting Maged's junior lawyer to write that letter is likely to be far more than the cost of any actions the trustee of the Fund actually needed to take to deal with the problem!

    I could go on, but I'm worried they might track me down and start sending me random threats and try to access my computer.

    1. Re:Superannuation lawyer talking trash by fenris60 · · Score: 1

      Re-reading my post, its probably a little harsh. I should clarify that the above is entirely my opinion, based on my personal experiences working for other partners in another firm (albeit in the same field). I have no personal experience of how the lawyers or firm mentioned above operate.

      I should also add that, on re-reading the letter, its probably less threatening than it sounds. Most of the language suggests that they are just covering their bases and not waiving any rights, rather than signalling an actual intent to recover costs from the researcher. Hopefully his good deed does in fact go unpunished, and this all blows over.

  38. large numbers != big evil by Onymous+Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Hm. The URL has my account number in it... I wonder if all accounts are accessible by that param alone? Nah. Well, let's see... I'll just increment the number.

    ACCOUNT=1234
    while true; do
        ACCOUNT=$((ACCOUNT+1))
        wget -nv url://site.with.FAIL.security/showstatement?acct=$i > log.$i 2>&1
    done

    By the time I press Ctrl-c I've hacked over 500 accounts!

  39. Send them an email to tell them to stop the sillyn by Lothsahn · · Score: 2

    Perhaps if they get enough negative feedback, they'll drop the threatening postures and lawsuits...

    http://www.firststatesuper.com.au/EmailEnquiries

    --
    -=Lothsahn=-
  40. He had a vested Interest in advising them. by OzTech · · Score: 1

    Strange how most people seem to be forgetting this very simple yet very pertinent fact.

    This fund had been making his personal and financial details publicly available!

    1. Re:He had a vested Interest in advising them. by Loveless62 · · Score: 1

      Hence the solution: countersuit!

  41. Proper Security Disclosure Protocol by X86Daddy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You go to a web cafe and post it on 4chan, as Anonymous of course. That is what the system has encouraged.

  42. Learn from Mitnick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The difference between going to civil/criminal action and getting paid can be summarized in one word: authorization (or authorisation if you're outside the USA).

    If you as a security researcher are going to practice full disclosure, be familiar with the laws of the land and consider retaining counsel. It's just too damned easy for a corporate entity to impoverish/imprison you. This statement of itself is fucking tragic.

    I'm not a lawyer. Just applying some common sense.

  43. Patrick Webster email to IT staff by aushack · · Score: 5, Informative

    Hello, I am Patrick. I cannot reproduce the email their staff replied with, except it says something along the lines of thank you for raising this matter for our attention and that is was fixed within an hour or two. Below is my email to them, with certain parts redacted, which includes the heavily debated script. The email was a follow up after a lengthy discussion with staff and they were most thankful for the call. I'm publishing this just so that you are better informed and can form your own opinions based on this. From: Patrick Webster [mailto:patrick@osisecurity.com.au] Sent: Thursday, 22 September 2011 1:26 PM To: [REDACTED] Subject: Privacy breach in pillar.com.au website Hello [REDACTED], Thanks for taking the time to speak with me today. As mentioned, I am a FSS member from my time a NSW Police Force. My personal background is in IT Security and I am the owner of OSI Security (www.osisecurity.com.au). You're welcome to see my personal history at http://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickwebster - the past 10 or 11 years I have been working in securing information systems etc, which is how I came across this bug. Yesterday, I received the FSS email notification to download my member statement. So I logged in to the pillar / FSS members portal and went to statements and clicked to download the statement, which is in PDF format. My *personal* statement is at https://services.pillar.com.au/FSSMembers/secure/Statement.aspx?documentId=107/1388-%5BREDACTED%5D8&page=0 You're welcome to have a look (I have [REDACTED] in super, yay). So after I saw my statement I noticed the 'documentId' number and, based on my security background, I have natural concerns my information is stored securely. So I incremented the number to see what happens (expecting to be rejected); I.e. https://services.pillar.com.au/FSSMembers/secure/Statement.aspx?documentId=107/1388-%5BREDACTED%5D8&page=0 becomes https://services.pillar.com.au/FSSMembers/secure/Statement.aspx?documentId=107/1388-%5BREDACTED%5D9&page=0 Amazingly (and coincidentally I might add) the statement I downloaded is my former colleague at [REDACTED] (if you look at my LinkedIn profile and see my connections you will see that we are connected). I then did a random spot test to see if it worked for any number, which indeed it did. I quickly wrote a linux bash script to enumerate documentId numbers and discovered it worked. Script source is below: #!/bin/bash #[REDACTED] for i in {[REDACTED]..[REDACTED]} do echo $i wget "https://services.pillar.com.au/FSSMembers/secure/Statement.aspx?documentId=107/1388-$i&page=0" --no-cookies --header "Cookie: [REDACTED]" done You can see the script runs from [REDACTED]..[REDACTED] in member numbers (just a guess on my part) and then tells the wget software to fetch the documentId with the 'for loop' number which is $i. I was then able to download every member statement, including my own of course. Naturally I find this extremely concerning so contacted you today (I found this around 9pm last night). All the data I obtained has been destroyed / deleted but validated my concerns. Ideally the pillar website should generate some kind of hash (such as member ID + unique salt = 'documentId') instead of a direct object reference. See: https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Top_10_2010-A4-Insecure_Direct_Object_References That is about it... if you have any questions please contact me via email or details below. Kind Regards, Patrick Webster ...

    1. Re:Patrick Webster email to IT staff by Xacid · · Score: 1

      Just a hunch but I'm going to say the panic stems from this single line right here: " I was then able to download every member statement".

      Probably better off just doing only spot checking in the future - not sure what benefit was gained from automating it to grab everything it could. It only takes one example of accessing something you shouldn't have access to show there's a hole somewhere.

    2. Re:Patrick Webster email to IT staff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      dont sign it and tell them to fuck off and that anything else you find on their site will be made public without notifications... simple as that. oh, they granted you access to their system by giving you a login account... Im not sure "unauthorised access" applies.

    3. Re:Patrick Webster email to IT staff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Having read this story, I sent the following email to the contact posted on the Pillar website.

      Dear Mr. Blair,

      I am writing to inform you of a serious security flaw within your organization. Please forward this email appropriately.

      Given the letter of 12 October 2011 from Minter Ellison (acting for FSS Trustee Corporation) to a Mr. Patrick Webster (who has previously alerted you to another, less serious, vulnerability in your systems' security), I regret to inform you of the following deficiency: Your organization is apparently staffed by morons.

      This is a serious issue.

      My understanding of the first security flaw suggests that anyone who was capable of pouring water out of a boot was capable of accessing other accounts via your systems. When brought to your company's attention, the reaction to this knowledge was to threaten the security researcher who provided the warning, shooting the messenger as it were.

      Furthermore it was suggested in the letter of 12 October 2001 that Mr. Webster has somehow volunteered to take the place of an apparently absent Information Technology Department Security Office, or its equivalent, completely without salary or compensation for this further service to your organization.

      The only reasonable conclusion under the circumstances is that Pillar Administration, First State Super scheme fund, FSS Trustee Corporation, and Minter Ellison have a combined I.Q. south of a warm bowl of yogurt.

      I do not, by bringing this to your attention, in any way volunteer to re-staff your organization with competent, capable, or otherwise sentient beings.

      I have honest sympathy for the challenges your organization faces. Since news of its shortsightedness has reached around the globe, it should be painfully obvious that the original "flaw" in security (read: complete absence of), could have easily been broadcast by Mr. Webster, who instead only tried to help.

      I, and others, will continue to monitor this situation with great interest, in the hopes that the spark of intelligence will somehow ignite.

      Personally, I give it 50-50.

      Yours Truly,
      Grant Austin

  44. Where is the gratitude ? by indaba · · Score: 1

    They should get down on their knees and thank him for disclosing this appalling security hole.

  45. Useful advice. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Step 0. Stop using that computer. Unplug it and keep it in a safe place. You'll need to buy or borrow another computer in the meantime.
    Step 1. Hire a lawyer with backgrounds in computer forensics.
    Step 2. In the witness of the lawyer or its legal representative, allow a forensics technician perform a exact clone of your hard drives. The original harddisk will be put into escrow.
    Step 3. Have the lawyer notify that company that they'll need to file a subpoena to access that clone. Arrange for a lawyer's meeting and delivery.
    Step 4. in the presence of forensics technicians from both parties, examine the data on the harddisk, and remove the data deemed necessary. The company's lawyers may have to conduct additional analysis to make sure the data had not been misused during the researcher's work.
    Step 5. The cleaned harddisk clone is returned to the researcher, and the researcher will test if the operating system is still functional, that his own personal data are intact.
    Step 6. If so, the escrow harddisk may be safely and securely destroyed.
    Step 7. Have your lawyer send a freaking bill to that company.

    The escrow harddisk is used in case an unresolvable dispute happens during the Step 1 - 7.

    The lesson: Samaritans need Samaritan lawyers. (Samaritan lawyers always send their bills to the party responsible.)

  46. Only in Australia... by Tasha26 · · Score: 1

    No wonder we shipped those thickos out of the UK and in droves...

    1. Re:Only in Australia... by WillKemp · · Score: 1

      Funny that half the population of the UK would like to live here. And at least half of the rest would like to live somewhere else - anywhere except Britain. Funny, too, that there are 50,000 British illegal immigrants in Australia. The only people who actually want to live in the UK are the immigrants.

      Nobody in their right mind would want to live on that cold, grey, and dismal little island - particularly as it's filled with a bunch of whining no-hopers. I'm eternally thankful that i managed to escape from the hellhole myself!

    2. Re:Only in Australia... by Tasha26 · · Score: 1

      I like my Winter-wear, so much more elegant than your Hawaiian-style clothes and flip-flops... but i digress. Wouldn't u agree that only thickos would punish a guy who's trying to help them? Must be a quite thick govt to enact such a stupid law, and even more thick population to put such govt in power.

    3. Re:Only in Australia... by WillKemp · · Score: 1

      It sounds like you've been watching too much Home and Away (or whatever that Aussie soap is that's set near a beach...)! I don't wear Hawaiian style clothes! (But i do wear flip flops!)

      If Australians had a monopoly on stupidity i might be inclined to agree with you, but they don't. The British do plenty of stupid things, just like the yanks and everyone else in the world. And, judging by the summary, it hasn't really got anything to do with Australian law or the government - it's the stupidity of a particular company in trying to pursue this guy. All they've done so far is send him a typical threatening solicitor's letter. I doubt the threats would stand up in court.

      At least this guy's not faced with extradition to the US, like British hackers Gary McKinnon, and Ryan Cleary, or to Sweden and then the US, like Australian Julian Assange. All three of them are fighting the British legal system.

      And talking about thick populations putting governments in power... Who in their right mind would allow slimy scum like Cameron to run any country, even a third world one like the UK?

    4. Re:Only in Australia... by Tasha26 · · Score: 1

      Maybe i have my own other reasons to dislike Australia... lets leave it at that. Also that guy criticised our beautiful grey and cold weather. Am sorry but this is the best time to dress in tights, high boots etc,,, I hate sweaty warm places.

      Your examples of flawed British legal system aren't solid:
      - Gary McKinnon did hack into NASA, FBI and other US servers for what he claims "to find evidendence of alien cover-up." Then he gets assburgers syndrome, so he can avoid getting judged for hacking crimes? Please! I know there are different levels of hacking but in the end, hacking is hacking.
      - Julian Assange has an unresolved criminal case with Sweden, that's the only reason he's being sent there. Who is Britain to tell the Swedes: "No! You guys are liars and only re-opening this case to extradite Assange to the US!" The UK will need some serious proof before making such accusation.
      - I haven't kept up with Ryan Cleary case. But from a quick online search, it would seem that Serious Organised Crime Agency (Soca) has evidence on his Lulzsec involvment and we all know Lulzsec attacked major US corporations (not that am in disagreement with what LulzSec did). So if this Ryan guy is really guilty, then he has to answer for his crimes. Just like I would if I participated and got caught.

      All the above don't compare to a techy highlighting security flaws and getting slapped in the face with a legal letter.

    5. Re:Only in Australia... by WillKemp · · Score: 1

      (From the link)

      Scratch an Australian to find a racist.

      Scratch any human and you'll find a racist! Sadly, racism is a universal part of human nature. We're all racist to some extent - even you! I live in the NT and i've experienced Aboriginal people being racist towards other Aboriginal people.

      If you think Australia is more racist than Britain, you must live in London (or possibly some other big multicultural city). If you get out of the cosy multiculturalism of Hackney or Brixton and into the real Britain, you'll find it's rife with racism. The enduring victims of British racism are Gypsies and the Irish, but British people are quite partial to being racist towards any ethnic minority that comes to their attention. They're also extremely racist towards people who come from other parts of Britain than where they come from themselves. Shit, they even hate the people in the next village!

      The problems Aboriginal people face in Australia (and they're massive problems) are the result of colonization, rather than purely racism. And (originally, at least) Australia wasn't colonized by Australians - it was colonized by the British.

      I'm quite convinced that the majority of Australians are sympathetic towards Aboriginal people and would support any convincing moves to fix up the problems that colonization has caused them. However, it's not simple or straightforward - and Aboriginal people don't have a unified voice or a clear set of demands, which tends to perplex their passive supporters.

  47. Relevant case law on s308H by indaba · · Score: 2

    From SALTER v DPP [2008] NSWSC 1325 (5 December 2008)
    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/nsw/NSWSC/2008/1325.html

    13 Counsel appearing for the defendant drew attention to a number of prior decisions, albeit on different statutory provisions, those cases including Gilmour v Director of Public Prosecutions (Cth) (1995) 43 NSWLR 243, The Director of Public Prosecutions v Murdoch [1993] 1 VR 406 at 409,410. In that last mentioned case Hayne J said:-

    “... Where, as is the case here, the question is whether the entry was with permission, it will be important to identify the entry and to determine whether that entry was within the scope of the permission that had been given. If the permission was not subject to some express or implied limitation which excluded the entry from its scope, then the entry will be with lawful justification but if the permission was subject to an actual express or implied limitation which excluded the actual entry made, then the entry will be “without lawful authority to do so.” ...

    In my view the section requires attention to whether the particular entry in question was an entry that was made without lawful authority. In the case of a hacker it will be clear that he has no authority to enter the system. In the case of an employee the question will be whether that employee had authority to affect the entry with which he stands charged. If he has a general and unlimited permission to enter the system then no offence is proved. If however there are limits upon the permission given to him to enter that system it will be necessary to ask was the entry within the scope of that permission? If it was, then no offence was committed; if it was not, then he has entered the system without lawful authority to do so.”

    14 The passage has direct application to the situation here.

    15 Authorisation to use a computer or authorisation in an entirely different field of law may be general or it may be limited or it may be subject to conditions, and I do not believe that s 308B should be given an operation so as to set at nought that aspect of the general law. As Hayne J said in the passage to which I have referred:-

    “If there are limits upon the permission given, it will be necessary to ask was the entry within the scope of that permission?"

    ------- So, much will depend on the terms that governed the access to the website. Can these be posted ?

  48. Correction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    this is the best analogy yet but it misses out on one thing:

    In the penetration the movable panel gives access to the valuables. So better analogy would be a voice activated door that doesn't check if the voice is allowed to enter the premises. And if you installed such a thing and are not aware that it doesn't check if the person at the door is allowed to enter then you don't deserve to be paid back anything. (At least not under my law)

    And on that other thing about paying for the repairs:
    Direct object access vulnerabilities are usually remedied with one line of code. Now I don't usually put a price on that but if I had to I would say it's about 100£. Unfortunately to make me write that line of code you will have to contract my company for an initial screening 12000£ or much more if you want a full scale research. So yes, I'll pay you a hundred bucks if you do that ;-)

  49. Oops - probably was uudecode by Mathinker · · Score: 1

    Now that I think about it more, I think it was an address which piped to "uudecode" rather than "uucp" .... sorry!

  50. Legal document by WillKemp · · Score: 1

    Legal document, my arse! It's a trying-it-on letter from a dodgy solicitor.

  51. Full disclosure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They're vulnerable to SQL injection in the login page at https://services.pillar.com.au/FSSMembers/static/Login.aspx

  52. Absolutely the wrong way of handling this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I getting tired of reading stuff like this... ...being a good Samaritan is the wrong approach. Depending on the local laws I would perform the following:

    1. Assume that the Software Owners (SO) (there's probably a legal term for this) are fully cognisant of the functionality
          and vulnerabilities of their product.
    2. If you discover something, like a criminal entering you home, you don't politely ask them to leave - you assume
          they're there for an evil purpose and you immediately (as soon as possible) involve the police, make a complaint
          provide as little details as possible to satisfy the statuary execution of the complaint and wait for the trial.
    3. You have to honestly believe this as your aim is not to be accused of malicious behaviour.
    4. Despite what is said, the burden of proof is always on the accused (keep in mind if the roles were reversed). At the
          trial (try to avoid a hearing) present your side - prosecution goes 1st. Again you believe that they already know about this
          issue, and by it's existence purposely allowed it to continue unchecked to to place you in some sort of risk/evil path
          (legal term needed). Again, this is how you would be treated if the roles were reversed. They have to demonstrate that
          wasn't/isn't the case. Remember, they hold the bloody knife (the vulnerability), they have to prove that it was an accident -
          nobody's going to believe someone repentantly walked into it, i.e., you had access to and reason of to bring this vulnerability
          upon yourself - you have absolutely no control over it - in point of fact.
    5. These things are best handled at the local level - but some state prohibit citizens from filing criminal complaints so it may
          be a hard sell to a prosecutor. Keep in mind, too that you only know this exploit works for you; you have not tried to access
          anything beyond your account, but you mis-entered your # (or whatever) and saw that you did not receive an error but displayed
          someone else's account (in which you immediately exited). You did not explore it further; that is the job of the police.

    As sad as this seem, even though you may be acquitted (if you did not follow this approach), you still have a criminal record
    that you have to explain until the end of your life, the outrageous expense of defending yourself, and probably the loss of
    you job and its income.

  53. So the take away is report it as a hypothetical? by donheff · · Score: 1

    Someone who did the checks Patrick made could write to the IT staff describing everything he did in hypothetical terms: "it looks like it might be possible for me to increment the number and download other account holders' statements. In fact it looks like I might be able to run the following linux bash script and download hundreds of statements... If you try this script and validate my concerns, ideally the pillar website should generate some kind of hash (such as member ID + unique salt = 'documentId') instead of a direct object reference. See:...Please let me know what you find. If my fears are validated I would hate to see this vulnerability appear on public sites thus jeopardizing my information."

  54. Uh... by TheSpoom · · Score: 1

    Don't you think publicly disclosing the vulnerability, as you have done here, might not be the best thing to do in the face of a potential lawsuit? If I was your lawyer, I would slap you upside the head. You just increased your liability by several orders of magnitude.

    --
    It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
    - E. Debs
    1. Re:Uh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The solution he posted is as fail as the problem. The problem, clearly, is failure to authenticate access before serving the resource. Changing the document id is not the solution.

  55. Breaching the Law on Data Security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You know what that threatening letter is? It's Pillar's managers shitting themselves.

    They've exposed all their clients to fraud and identity theft, they are in violation of all the laws on data protection, plus some on Financial Services regulation. Superannuation is regulated pretty heavily, they could and probably should have their licence to be a fund yanked by the Financial Services Authority. This is mud to hide from their incompetence, I'm surprised they haven't called you a Hacker in the media yet. Email to your ombudsman, they are in the wrong here.

  56. Canada less stupid by mandelbr0t · · Score: 1

    The Passport Canada website had a security flaw discovered by a user. They took the website down, fixed the problem, and kindly abstained from pursuing legal action. If a government can behave civilly, surely others can too.

    --
    "Please describe the scientific nature of the 'whammy'" - Agent Scully
  57. Re:Utter lack of understanding the real problem he by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He is a famous INDIPENDENT SECURITY RESEARCHER, a role that you probably don't know of.

  58. Robots take note. by IronLight · · Score: 1

    maged.girgis@minterellison.com needs to appear as plain text. Just because.

  59. At fault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The ones that published the information were the affected company, the prosecutor.

    Honestly if we put it as an analogy, the persecutor is a messy person that puts all his documents into your table and tells you to simply search for yours. You can still take picks at other of course. Who is responsible for the privacy breach?

    I really have no clue.

  60. my story by Nyder · · Score: 1

    When I was a kid, about 5 i think, I found a key hidden in something in the backyard of our part of an apartment complex. It was obviously left by the previous renter as a way to get into their place if they forgot their key. (well, that's my assumption). Being a 5 year old kid, i of course, tried it in my apartments lock. It worked.

    Then I tried my neighbors lock, and sure enough, it unlocked their door also. I went on to try all the locks, which it didn't unlock any other door, but i did piss off some people living there.

    This was the early 70's, and of course, no one would call the cops on me. Today? I'd probably be some sort of terrorist if I did that.

    But the point? My doing that, showed that our apartment and our next door neighbors apartment had the same key, or one so similiar that they both work on each unit. So we got a new lock.

    I wasn't trying to break into anyone's apartment, i just found a flaw, and was trying to see how far it extended before telling the proper authorities (which in this case, was my mom).

    Thought I'd share, probably doesn't have much do to with the article, but hey,i tried, right?

    --
    Be seeing you...
  61. Re:Utter lack of understanding the real problem he by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They couldn't secure the server, so it isn't unlikely they hadn't thought of checking the logs.

  62. Others Aussie companies may be affected ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apparently the FSS company relies upon http://www.pillar.com.au/ superannuation administration services to handle its online functions. And Pillar have a list of all their customers here: http://www.pillar.com.au/links.htm One would hope all customer installations have fixed this issue.

  63. Hypothetical killer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not to end this incredible hypothetical.... but I'd say its just big wig words from the law firm.... especially, given this...

    http://www.firststatesuper.com.au/SecurityOfMemberInformationUpdate