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Ask Slashdot: Radiation Detection For Tokyo Resident?
An anonymous reader writes "I'm an American who is living in Tokyo. Stories have started popping up about 'radiation hot spots' in Tokyo and surrounding prefectures so I have begun to worry. I live on the first floor of my apartment building and right by our washing machine there is a gutter out there that is clogged with rain water and mud, which has me especially worried because my wife and I are planning to have kids soon. Obviously no one from the government is going to come by to check our gutter so I feel the need to take matters into my own hands. I have absolutely no idea so I'm asking you guys. What kind of radiation detector should I get? A Geiger Counter? If it measures Gamma rays is that enough? Are alpha and beta dangerous too? I know no one has all the answers regarding radiation but any advice you guys could give me would be great."
Ask Slashdot anything you want! No need for prior research or common sense.
Even the Setagaya hotspot, caused by a forgotten stash of highly radioactive radium, which was orders of magnitude worse than anything else found in Tokyo, was nowhere near the point where it would have posed any danger to the people in the vicinity.
This is just not something which is worth worrying about, much less spending money on. Save your money for the thing your kid actually needs.
When they talk about "radiation hot spots", they're not talking about anything that will be a problem unless you're standing on it 24/7 for a decade or so.
But, to provide more detail, alpha isn't a problem unless you eat the emitter (or inhale it), beta isn't a problem unless the emitter is in contact with your bare skin, and gamma can be a problem, assuming you live next to it for a while....
If the muddy spot bothers you, hose it off.
And good luck with the kids....
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Utter fearmongering nonsense. Neutrons occur naturally everywhere as secondary particles from cosmic rays.
There is an app for that: https://market.android.com/details?id=com.rdklein.radioactivity - and no, it's not one of those fake geiger counter apps, but instead a clever hack using the CCD of the internal camera for detecting beta and gamma radiation. All you have to do is cover the camera, so only radiation events will show up on the CCD. The app counts the events and checks against an established calibration table.
I don't know about a radiation detector, but I do have some entertainment suggestions for your music player, assuming of course that it doesn't get fried by the radiation...
"Christmas at Ground Zero" by Weird Al
"Hot Frogs On The Loose" by Fred Small
On a more respectful note, there is also Small's "Cranes Over Hiroshima".
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Fukushima-diary reports that a neutron ray was measured in Tokyo. Neutron ray is emitted from Uranium 235 wich came from MOX with Plutonium and can not be measured by most of the Geiger counters.
Neutrons come from fission, fusion or radioactive decay. All of these processes produce photons and electrons which are detected by geiger counters. If a significant neutron flux was being produced, whatever was producing them would be sending geiger counters crazy.
Perhaps you should educate yourself in basic physics rather than passing on the unfounded ravings of crazy people?
FWIW, in the week of the meltdown exactly one significant neutron flux was detected. This was probably caused by a prompt criticality in the melting core.
You should contact Safecast. I believe they will even lend you a device and the data will be incorporated into their map.
Oh, yeah, and you asking Slashdot this question is like asking PETA how to skin a deer. Hope you have the persistence to scan through all the highly modded posts insulting your intelligence to actually find useful answers to your question . . .
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
Rather than geiger counter, there are plenty of electronic pocket dosimeters which can also show accumulated dose. Your main concern is measuring gamma. These dosimeters will run from $200 to $600 for a basic model. Some even can show dose rate graph over time. http://www.dosimeter.com/survey-meters/digilert-100-survey-meter/
Well, what the best device is depends on what it is you want to measure. Alpha particles are not harmful if on the outside - they can't penetrate the skin - but can be exceptionally nasty if ingested. Beta particles can travel further and through more, but still aren't exceptionally dangerous at the kinds of doses you're likely talking about. Even radioactive particles that emit gamma aren't dangerous in low quantities.
The limestone caves in the Peak District are considered dangerous enough that guides can't go down them on consecutive tours and sections are off-limits to potholers. You should probably wait 10-15 mins after going on a tour before getting into a car if there's a group of you. The source of the radioactivity is a mix of uranium-containing ores and radon-bearing igneous rocks. If you were to encounter anything comparable in Tokyo, you'd be in serious trouble,
In reality, the biggest hot-spot reported to date was due to antiques. In all probability, uranium ore (a very popular mineral for adding a yellow tint to glazes and glass in the 1800s and early 1900s) would be what was found, although depending on the instruments used, radon-based paints (very popular for its glow-in-the-dark properties) is another strong possibility. Neither could be considered remotely a health hazard to your average citizen. In fact, given the volcanic nature of Japan, radon-bearing rocks are almost certainly your number 1 health hazard. For that, you'd want a Geiger counter (only if paranoid) and a decent extraction fan (radon is a gas).
If you're worried about fallout, then put a small plastic tray on the roof to collect rain and borrow a Geiger counter. If the rainfall contains nothing of significance now, then it won't do in the future. It takes a LOT to put something as heavy as dust as high up as the cloud layer.
If you are absolutely paranoid, take a roll of 35mm film into a pitch-black room and unroll it. Cut it into squares. Put each square between two pieces of cardboard that are just thick enough that absolutely no light will get through. Use duct tape round the edges to seal the sandwich up. Radioactive dust is the biggest problem and dust is worst in the corners of rooms, since they're hard to clean. Put a film sandwich in all the corners in your house. Leave them there for, say, about a week. Gather them up and take them to anyone with a darkroom to develop. If the squares are completely fogged over, THEN you can worry. And buy a better vaccuum cleaner. If the film shows little or nothing, then you can be absolutely certain that the only thing that you're in danger of is a heart attack from self-induced stress.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
You cannot do this at home. The equipment you can afford (and use) will basically be able to tell you when to run, but that is it. Radioactive substances have highly different toxicity and the direct radiation effect is often not what counts. Example: Plutonium is completely harmless unless ingested. You skin shields completely against its radiation. However when ingested, if comes close to cells and becomes the most deadly substance known to mankind. Also, air happens to shield its radiation! So measuring it requires a very, very thin layer of the substance to be measures, or better vacuum. And very specialized and expensive equipment.
I advise to invest the effort instead in healthy living. If you can, move far away from Tokyo. Other than that you best bet is to hope for the best.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
As others have noted, ingesting the material is hazardous. This includes inhaling the material. Wear a face filter if dealing with anything suspicious like that. Otherwise, consider putting on rubber gloves with the mask, and removing the gunk from the gutter to somewhere safely away from you.
If this were any other topic that required technology, the majority of highly modded posts would point to various resources on how to approach the technology. Some posts would even include first hand accounts. However, if it is dealing with nuclear power, which apparently the majority of Slashdoters are completely sold on, the highest modded posts are, "don't bother." Any ideas on the discrepancy? If you LIKE the technology, then shouldn't you be trying to get more people involved? What geek hasn't wasted $300 on some device they didn't really need? Why is it not worth it this time and who are you to judge that for a fellow geek?
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
From http://health.phys.iit.edu/extended_archive/9503/msg00074.html:
.
re: The Radiation Dose from a "Reference Banana."
Some time ago (when I almost had time to do such things) I calculated the dose one receives from the average banana. Here's how it goes:
On page 620 of the CRD Handbook on Rad Measurement and Protection, the concentration of K-40 in a "Reference Banana" is listed as 3520 picocuries per kilogram of banana. For those of us who are stuck in certain unit ruts, this is equivalent to 3.52E-6 microcuries of K-40 per gram of banana.
An average "Reference" banana weighs (masses) about 150 grams (I think.) So, the ICRP Reference Banana contains about 5.28E-4 microcuries of probably deadly K-40.
Federal Guidance Report #11 lists the ingestion dose (committed effective dose equivalent) for K-40 as 5.02E-9 Sv/Bq or (again, for those of us who are "unit-challenged," 1.86E-2 rem per microcurie ingested.)
Thus, the CEDE from ingestion of a Reference Banana is 5.28E-4 x 1.86E-2 = 9.82E-6 rem or about 0.01 millirem.
I have found this "Banana Equivalent Dose" very useful in attempting to explain infinitesmal doses (and corresponding infinitesmal risks) to members of the public. (Interestingly, the anti-nukes just HATE this, and severely critisize us for using such a deceptive concept.)
Would love to go into more detail, but have to get back to our DEADLY Human Radiation Experiments (i.e., eating bananas.)
The same table in the CRC Handbook lists 3400 pCi/kg for white potatoes and 4450 pCi/kg for sweet potatoes - so you could carry through the same sort of calculation for Reference Potatoes. Interestingly, raw lima beans come in at 4640 pCi/kg, "dry, sweet" coconut comes in at 6400 pCi/kg, and raw spinach (yum!) comes in at 6500 pCi/kg.
Considering the fact that the DOE has officially stated that "there is no safe dose of radiation" my advice to you all is to stop eating immediately.
Oh yes! Almost forgot. Regarding K-40, go into your local grocery store, buy some salt-substitute (there are two common brands, and the one in the white and orange labeled container works best) spread some out on a table and check it out with a GM survey instrument. There it is folks, deadly radioactivity in your grocery store!
Yours for healthful diets . .
Captain Internal Dosimetry
aka Gary Mansfield, LLNL, (mansfield2@llnl.gov)
Disclaimer:
Neither Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, the University of California, nor the Department of Energy recommends eating bananas.
-------
The point of course, is to make people realize that the notion that "there is no safe dose of radiation" isn't necessarily correct. Your granite countertops have trace particles of uranium in them. The Capital Building in Washington DC has so much granite in it that it wouldn't be qualified as a nuclear facility because it already emits too much radiation. We consume radiation all of the time from a variety of sources and our bodies rid themselves of it naturally.
I was in the park the other day wondering why frisbees get bigger and bigger the closer they get - and then it hit me.
Godzilla?
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
yes you are right this "background" radiation does occur naturally and no your are wrong their is reason to fear as their is no known safe level of radiation.
Utter BULLSHIT..
There is NO LINK between cancer and radiation in humans at below 100mSv/yr acute radiation dosage or 400mSv/yr prolonged radiation dosage or 4000mSv/lifetime (you can't exceed either of the limits). Period.
And now you are trying to spin this into "there is no known safe level of radiation"??? Seriously. Get a life. Radiation is a *stressor* like 1000s of other things that are far more carcinogenic that you choose to expose yourself to. WTF do you think formaldehyde does to you? Or gasoline? Or submicron dust from car breaks on the street?? All of these are far more dangerous than radiation because these target specific areas of your body.
There is NO KNOWN TOTALLY SAFE LEVELS OF BREATHING OXYGEN. Oxygen is the strongest free radical creator in our body. Now go, and deal with it.
You sound like someone that can't understand that they do not live forever. Hell, I hope you do not drive or get out of the house as that is far more dangerous than if you didn't evacuate from Fukushima and and proceeded to lived 2km from the reactor for next 100 years. But I guess sometimes it is futile to explain magnitude of danger if people have preexisting dogma about something.
"There is no totally safe level of radiation" just like it is not totally safe sitting on your ass typing this up. Yeap, nothing is totally safe.... Geez!
Here is a way to build your own radiation detector to check a sample.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVj69R66Agg The coolant used is an air duster can turned upside down. Any self respecting slashdotter should have one of these.
So basically what you need is isopropyl alcohol 99%, a clear sided container with the bottom painted black, a bright flashlight, a small rag or tissue, and an air duster can.
Should be able to build it in 10 minutes. If you have a hot source you will see many streaks of radiation. With background radiation you will only get the occasional streak. Maybe one every 20 seconds.
don't live in fearful ignorance, educate yourself.
The alpha particle from decaying u-235 can be stopped by a few centimeters of air, a sheet of paper or by your skin.
I've an even better one, I have sitting here two 10" uranium glass plates, of which of course 0.72% is U-235. The former owners, relatives of mine who gave it too me to make my geiger counter do something fun and interesting for my kids, ate meals off the stuff for decades since they were married. They are in their 80s, that U-235 must be a really slow poison! ha!
I dont know about the 700 million years part but I do know that all reactor fuel is made from U-235 and is very toxic and radioactive.
It is only highly radioactive AFTER it has been inside the reactor for a while. The radioactivity comes from the fission products which are neutron rich nuclei and so decay via beta decay. These are not produced in any significant quantity outside the reactor core because the U-235 neutron capture cross-section is ~1,000 times smaller for fast neutrons and so there is no noticeable chain reaction from a spontaneous fission event. Before the fuel is in the reactor it only poses a toxic hazard.
If you want proof have a look at this picture. It is someone wearing latex gloves and holding a uranium fuel pellet in front of a container of hundreds of fuel pellets. While this is safe for fresh pellets you would not do this after these pellets have been in the reactor core. Indeed when spent fuel rods (containing the pellets) are removed from a reactor they are stored at the bottom of a pool for a period so some of the radioactive fission products to decay because the fuel is so active.
First and foremost, as others have posted this is too late to worry about it, AND there is nothing to really worry about.
BUT, if you want to approach this as a fun sort of science-fair project that will only tell you 'IF' and not 'HOW MUCH', read on.
You have 3 dirt-cheap and easy ways to detect radioactivity:
1) take an unexposed roll of film (B&W might make it easier to see) and place it near to suspected source. Go develop the film. If you see alot of 'static' then there might be something there. (make sure the place that develops it does the whole roll and doesn't try to malipulate/enhance the image for you) Tell them you will pay for all frames including the 'blank' ones. *For bonus points, you make a frame that you can mount strips of unexposed film to and 'aim' the film at the suspect areas. (make sure you keep the film away from the light)
2) (must be done at night) grab an old phosphor screen (like from an old television), as radiation hits it you will see small flashes of light like static
3) Use a smoke detector. as beta particles pass through the detector, the alarm will go off
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)
If Mr/Ms Anonymous wishes to contact me, I can check the gutter etc for him/her. I've checked out friends' places in Chiba and elsewhere. Immediately after Fukushima, prices on detectors rocketed past $1200; now they're back down around $300 and in plentifu supply. The cheapest sensible devices available in Japan at the moment are probably one of the Soeks range. This is a detector, not dosimeter. It doesn't log data, and there's no PC connectivity, for example.It only runs 10 hours on a battery, though. For dosimeter, the DosRAE2 is readily available and, again, reasonably priced. It runs 400 hours between recharges and is designed to be worn as a badge. Lots of alarms. The PC software for logging data and managine multiple DosRAE2 badges is laughably bad, though. If you really want one of these things, I'd definitely go for the simple geiger counter (i.e. Soeks), because you get a very visual idea of what's going on around you. Many of the people using these things around Japan aren't capable of interpreting the results. Hotspots within Tokyo: not seen anything comparable to yer average granite lobby, and nothing anywhere near, say, Colorado.
There are three types of radiation you have to deal with when it comes to fallout. Alpha, beta, and gamma.
Alpha radiation can't even go very far through the air. Few inches give or take. It isn't dangerous to you at all unless ingested.
Beta radiation goes a little farther but isn't dangerous unless very concentrated and close, or is ingested.
Gamma radiation is what you would have to worry about the most, but significant levels aren't going to accumulate near you unless you're directly in the path of the fallout. In which case there would likely be much higher radiation readings between you and the plant.
As for alpha and beta, you won't be able to easily test for these. These are mostly rather transient in nature. Gamma rays you can easily test for, just buy a Geiger counter online and make sure it works. Your local university would probably be glad to help you calibrate it, talk to the physics or nuclear engineering department.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
I'll give you a good comparison: If you live in Mexico City (about 2km above sea level), you get more radiation then you got in Tokyo in any day during or after Fukushima due to having 2km less atmosphere buffering radiation from the Sun.
Fun part? There is no statistical cancer or child birth defect spike in Mexico City in comparison to any other city.