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Why Economic Models Are Always Wrong

mayberry42 writes "Did you ever wonder how and why professional economists often seem to get it wrong in terms of predicting consequences or policies accurately (or even at all)? Or how very few even saw the current economic collapse? This article provides an interesting, if obvious, reason as to why economic models are effectively always wrong."

33 of 676 comments (clear)

  1. Obvious really by BeerCat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Most economic models are based on "how we would like people to act" rather than "how people actually act". Much of the time, the model works, but they fail when people act in irrational ways.

    Simples.

    --
    "She's furniture with a pulse"
    1. Re:Obvious really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yep, most economic models do not take actual human action into account. There are some economists that do consider human action, though (and even consider it the foundation of economics). Interestingly, those economists were the ones that did predict the current economic collapse, but were pooh-poohed and marginalized for their views.

    2. Re:Obvious really by mikael_j · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Ah, to quote an economist acquaintance of mine "Economics isn't about numbers, it's just psychology on a mass scale" and "In school they teach us that everyone is a rational actor but everyone is completely irrational and refuses to admit it because then their models wouldn't be accurate".

      --
      Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
    3. Re:Obvious really by janimal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just ask Derren Brown if people are predictable. If you think people cannot be modeled, you are deluding yourself. Adam Smith saw it, and came up with a revolutionary theory that worked. Amazingly enough, his model assumes that all people act in their own self interest.

      Of course, the way you interpret the 'self interest' is what varies, but I am pretty sure that for the majority of humans self interest is fairly narrowly defined.

      Saying that every human is unique and special is like saying you're immune to commercials. It's just wishful thinking.

      See comments below. The crash was predicted. People acted in a predictable way.

    4. Re:Obvious really by Arlet · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Nice analogy, but physicist don't have to worry that the CEO molecule in an apple might die.

    5. Re:Obvious really by trout007 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Here is the book you want to read if you want to learn economics that makes sense and has real predictive powers.

      http://mises.org/Books/humanaction.pdf

      I've been reading about Austrian Economics for years and it has made me much better at understanding what is going on.

      I have also saved myself quite a bit of money. While everyone was using their home like an ATM I was paying off that debt and buying gold. I wasn't able to convince my wife to sell the house and rent for 5 years but that is mostly because where I live the rental homes were not very nice. The brilliance of this book is that it takes the fact that humans act as the given. It doesn't try to push a moral code on how they act or judge them for not behaving the way the author thinks they should.

      --
      I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    6. Re:Obvious really by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I do have considerable problem with the claim that seems to be made that even with perfect data one can't precisely compute the parameters defining a simple model like a straight line or exponential curve.

      Real world data is not going to be an exact fit to any arbitrary type of curve. It might be part of a sine wave, but it could be a quadratic or a quartic; there might even be an odd power with a small coefficient. Which do you choose? It might not be important within the range of data that you have, but once you move outside it might.

      Even if you could have "perfect data", you're only taking into account some of the variables involved. Your model would be perfect but partial. One of the factors that you ignored might not have had an effect in the past, but it might be precisely the one that makes it different next time.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    7. Re:Obvious really by khr · · Score: 4, Funny

      The way I'd heard it phrased is "to an economist, the real world is a special case."

    8. Re:Obvious really by digitig · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It assumes that individuals [1] act to maximise personal gain, and rejects anything done, for example, for the benefit of one's community.

      No, sometimes your personal gain also benefits the community.

      If it does then the standard economic model will see it as rational because of the personal gain.

      Plus, there are always altruists who get a warm fuzzy (personal gain) from doing good (helping the community).

      Yes, and I consider that to be rational, or at least possibly rational. The standard model of human behaviour used by economists, on the other hand, judges that to be irrational behaviour. That's my point: economists use a specific definition of "rational" that doesn't match very well to everyone else's.

      But, in large, it's fairly safe to say that everyone is more interested in things that IMMEDIATELY benefit them than they are in things that IMMEDIATELY harm them but benefit others. Hence our general aversion to taxes, tariffs, etc.

      Not as safe as you might think. At very least, you can't limit it to material benefits. Research has shown pretty consistently that (in market-based cultures) most people are willing to take a modest financial "hit" on a transaction in order to spite somebody who has treated them badly. Economically that is described as "irrational" behaviour, but all it actually means is that spiting the offender has value. What's more, that behaviour can be shown to be adaptive at the group level, because punishing "bad" behaviour discourages such behaviour, which is to the benefit of the overall community even if those two individuals never do business again.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
  2. Economics... by blahplusplus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... is not a science. The legal structure of money, the way prices work in a one way fashion, and private ownershp are all political all the way through. Now this may piss off Americans but there are alternative ways to organize society whether they like it or not. Human beings tend to be people of their era and they often have a profound lack of imagination, the black and white right/left thinking I see from people already disqualifies them for not even having the courage to analyze or think about the structures and societies in which they find themselves, the false notion that it is either THIS/THAT, BLACK/WHITE is having given up critical thinking and analysis for good.

    1. Re:Economics... by Hognoxious · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually plenty of economists did predict the crash. It's just that the only way to prevent it would have been to stop the party, and any politician who'd done so would have been replaced by someone who'd allow the credit-fueled binge to continue.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    2. Re:Economics... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 5, Informative

      Not entirely true. Ron Paul, who until now has always been pushed aside as irrelevant to the party, predicted it clearly and concisely. He predicted what would happen, approximately when, and exactly why. And all three of those came to be. ("When" was of course inexact... nobody is claiming clairvoyance here.)

      More to the point, he predicted what would happen afterward, which has also been coming to pass.

      Peter Schiff, who is also of the Austrian school of economics, publicly predicted the same, back in 2006-2007. There is a great YouTube video of him arguing with Keynesians who were all basically saying "The economy is fine!"

      But of course, he's not a politician. Yet.

    3. Re:Economics... by ErroneousBee · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, economists predict crashes all of the time.

      • Some are perma-bears, they always predict a crash. They do predict the crashes that happen, but they also predict loads that dont.
      • Some are perma-bulls, they always predict a crash, but not just yet.
      • And some try and give useful forecasts, but get it wrong most of the time because markets go through chaotic phases, and politicians make random moves.

      For instance, right now there are some people predicting a UK housing market crash of about 20% in the next year. If theres no crash this year, they'll just move forwards to next year. Eventually they'll be right, and will parade their insight for all to see.

      --
      **TODO** Steal someone elses sig.
  3. Wow by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Funny

    So small changes in inputs can produce big, unpredictable changes in the output of complex systems? It's almost as if a butterfly flapping its wings could affect the weather!

    They should find a snappy name for this marvelous discovery. Something like "chaos theory".

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  4. Many people saw the economic collapse by mbkennel · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Many, many, many people saw the economic collapse.

    I was reading plenty of blogs on the housing bubble, housingpanic.com, et etc, describing the preposterousness of "liar loans", subprime this, and idiocy that, and the crazy valuations.

    The New York Times even had a plot of the inflation-adjusted Case-Schiller price index which was enormously above any prior peak. During 2006 and 2007 and 2008.

    The notion that "nobody" saw it is simply propagandistic truthiness baloney. I personally didn't profit, because I was much too early shorting the mortgage companies & home builders and got stopped out---the bubble was too powerful.

    The real crime is that a small number of very powerful people had an exceptionally lucrative interest in NOT stopping it, because they were getting ginormous paychecks from the continuation of the bubble. And now the notion that nobody could see it is used as excuses for the powerful to excuse themselves from responsibility from fraud and crime.

    Down in the guts of banks, there were both risk modeling quants in the fancy banks, and the traditional "ladies with a bun" in the retail banks who processed the paperwork who saw how much outright fraud and insanity there was. Their jobs were threatened when they attempted to speak up and stop the madness, because the business side executives were making shitloads of shekels on volume.

    1. Re:Many people saw the economic collapse by antifoidulus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The notion that "nobody" saw it is simply propagandistic truthiness baloney. I personally didn't profit, because I was much too early shorting the mortgage companies & home builders and got stopped out---the bubble was too powerful.

      Which actually brings up the real problem, bubbles are actually pretty easy to spot, but almost impossible to time. Like you said, a lot of people saw the bubble, but almost nobody predicted when it would actually burst(a couple did, but the % is so low that it can be chalked up to random chance). You short too early and you end up in a bind as your trades are called in, too late and you missed all the fun.

      For a current bubble, look at the Japanese yen. There is no way the yen should be as high as it is right now, there is obviously a lot of leveraging going on keeping the currency much stronger than it should be. The currency will snap back, and probably pretty violently due to the massive amount of leveraging, but every single "prediction" I have read of when this will occur has been wrong.

    2. Re:Many people saw the economic collapse by argStyopa · · Score: 3, Informative

      Bush's budget issued in 2001 warned that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were overleveraged, and said that they needed tighter controls, oversight, and a host of reforms because "their failure could cause strong repercussions in financial markets, affecting federally insured entities and economic activity".

      D Senator Chris Dodd threatened to filibuster to block it.
      D Congressman Barney Frank (who was sleeping with a senior exec at Fannie Mae, coincidentally) claimed the subprime system at Fannie Mae was "fundamentally sound" and the idea it needed reforms "inane".

      Nobody saw this coming? No, it was pretty clearly that some people saw it coming but the system is so totally politicized that anything anyone is predictably responded-to according to the following algorithm:
      1) who said it?
      2) how is he affiliated?
      3) are my affiliations in opposition?
      4) if they are, I oppose whatever was said.

      Really, that's all that's left of intellect inside the beltway.

      --
      -Styopa
    3. Re:Many people saw the economic collapse by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Even of you do accept the ludicrous notion that small number of people *could* have stopped it.

      Actually, the notion is that, if a relatively small number of people had not prevented it, a somewhat larger group of people could have acted to ameliorate the consequences of the bubble popping.
      The people who should be held accountable for the bubble and the negative consequences of it popping are not (at least for the most part) the bankers. The politicians who started the bubble inflating and then when other politicians tried to let some air out of the bubble used their positions to prevent that are the ones who should be held accountable. There are, also, bureaucrats at Fanie Mae and Freddie Mac who should be held to blame as well. Most of the bankers, while they were happily raking in the profits from the bubble, were not in a position to change the dynamics of it.
      What I find most interesting about those who blame the bankers for the situation is that they tend to favor Democrats, just like the bankers most involved in the financial meltdown.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  5. Even rational models are unstable by Mathinker · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Even if everyone acted rationally, you would then have the instability which is generated because all of these rational people would then change their behavior based on ... the model. It's unclear, and in my eyes rather unlikely, that a "fixed point" exists where all of these rational people start behaving identically and predictably.

    The unpredictability doesn't only come out of irrationality. If you look at game theory, you see that many optimal (i.e., rational) strategies are "mixed" strategies where the rational party necessarily behaves probabilistically, not deterministically.

    1. Re:Even rational models are unstable by fremsley471 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If you look at game theory, you see that many optimal (i.e., rational) strategies are "mixed" strategies where the rational party necessarily behaves probabilistically, not deterministically

      I prefer:

      ...in formal experiments, the only people who behaved exactly according to the mathematical models created by game theory are economists themselves, and psychopaths

      Adam Curtis, The Trap: What Happened to Our Dream of Freedom, Part 2.

    2. Re:Even rational models are unstable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      actually, there were a lot of people talking about the future mortage crisis way before it became apparent.

      the problem is that there will always be biased economist with an agenda, whether they are supporter of the status quo or naysayer, the same way there are biased climate scientist both in the pro warming and negationist crowd.

      the problem are the we can't distinguish between unbiased and biased, we can't truly understand their models and thus we cannot discriminate between genuine models and biased ones.

      we can only catch blatant lies, but while it easy on hard sciences, it's quite hard on social models.

      we can just make sure to avoid blatantly biased studies, but it's not enough to find out who is who, specially because most economist work is known by news and not by papers, specially works that tackle the situation at hand instead of the general situational trends.

    3. Re:Even rational models are unstable by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If everyone had listened to the economists talking about the future mortgage crisis, the crisis would have been averted. And those economists would have been called frauds for predicting something that didn't happen.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    4. Re:Even rational models are unstable by Tacvek · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Even if everyone acted rationally, you would then have the instability which is generated because all of these rational people would then change their behavior based on ... the model. It's unclear, and in my eyes rather unlikely, that a "fixed point" exists where all of these rational people start behaving identically and predictably.

      Hell, even if it were the case that there were a point when people acted in a totally predictable fashion, despite or because of the existence of the model, there is still another issue. Any sufficiently high quality economic model will be modeling a chaotic system. By definition chaotic systems are extremely sensitive to initial conditions. Even if your model has the parameters perfect, if you are even slightly off in your initial conditions the output can differ enormously. This is actually made worse by the fact the the chaotic portion of the model often has minimal impact on the output most of the time, but other times it becomes a dominant factor.

      For example, chaos becomes a dominant factor during a catastrophic market collapse, since the exact order of events (what company's go out of business in what order, whose stock prices drop the most before regulators freeze trading, etc) is extremely sensitive to initial conditions, and the order of events determine whether certain events occur at all. If the order of events allows one of the big players in said market barely managing to remain in the game vs them going out of business can make an enormous difference in how quickly said market can recover.

      --
      Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
    5. Re:Even rational models are unstable by timeOday · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If everyone had listened to the economists talking about the future mortgage crisis, the crisis would have been averted.

      Maybe, maybe not. Many lenders knew very well that their loans would go bad - they called them "liar's loans" even at the time! And many bankers knew the derivatives they created from those bad loans (which they sold back and forth to reach a leverage of about 30x) were not worthy of the AAA rating the ratings agencies gave them.

      But here's the thing - a race to the bottom is not averted by knowing it's happening! If you don't think the other guy will stop even if you do, then your best option is to get while the getting is good, before the sh*t hits the fan.

      Plus, the outcome wasn't disastrous for those at the top - at worst, they lost their jobs, and walked away keeping the millions they had "earned." They need never work again.

      So, even perfect knowledge would not guarantee a good outcome.

  6. Models aren't equal to models by rmstar · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Models aren't equal to models, and even rough models of chaotic phenomena can be very useful and predictive, if they are the right ones. Read this for some acknowledgement of which brand of economics has been right during the last few years. Here is another account, including some pointers to predictions of the current crisis reaching as far back as 1999. Krugman even has a "model" of how good models get out of fashion.

    Economics suffers from the manipulation by political interests, and by the wish of many practitioners to project their moral ideals onto the world. Many economists simply go and try to prove that the world works however they want it to work, and find funding for that from rich supporters. That makes the endeavour biased.

  7. Economy is a religion, not a science by captainpanic · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In a religion, you just tell people what is the Truth. In science, you try to observe and learn.

    The models are self fulfilling prophecies.

    The high priests of the Economy tell us the Truth. The lower priests spread the word. And the people believe. Without the belief of the people, the system would instantly collapse. And if reality turns out differently, then they/we just invent a New Truth.

    I mean, is it really necessary to give trillions of euros/dollars to banks to bail them out? In which pockets is that money disappearing? The bailouts are presented as "The Only Way"... but nobody actually knows.

  8. Adjusting gravitational constant by maxwell+demon · · Score: 3, Funny

    From the article:

    "If you had to readjust the constant in Newton's law of gravity every time you got out of bed in the morning in order for it to agree with your scale, it wouldn't be much of a law But in finance they just keep on recalibrating and pretending that the models work."

    Wait ... you are saying the growing number on my bath scale isn't because the constant of gravity is growing? :-)

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  9. All models are wrong by Bud · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "Remember that all models are wrong; the practical question is how wrong do they have to be to not be useful." (George E.P. Box and Norman R. Draper, Empirical Model-Building and Response Surfaces (1987), p. 74)

    "One of the most insidious and nefarious properties of scientific models is their tendency to take over, and sometimes supplant, reality." (Erwin Chargaff)

    I think that says it all, really.

    --Bud

  10. Re:Could psychohistory be the answer? by janimal · · Score: 4, Informative

    Yes.
    1. The economists, who were correct were not listened to. (just look up Peter Schiff's predictions and how he was ridiculed)
    2. The economists, who were wrong were listened to, because that's what everyone *wished* were true.
    3. If anyone was in a position to personally gain from what was going on, they would most likely not have stopped it. So even if there were potential whistleblowers among the bankers and brokers, their incentive structure made whistleblowing a dumb move. If everything is going to s**t and you know it, but are in a position to set yourself up for life from the situation, or risk your job and your retirement saving a train that you probably couldn't stop anyway... what do you do? Be honest with yourself.

  11. Some economics professors saw it coming ... by drnb · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Many, many, many people saw the economic collapse.

    A newsletter from an economics professor and CNBC financial commentator:
    "Thursday, February 28, 2008 ... Any talking head who tells you that this market is a buying opportunity has his/her head screwed on backwards. The only buys are the kind of value plays that the likes of Buffett are pulling off. That is, it is very much a stock picker’s market. Recession plus inflation plus a credit crisis plus a softening European economy plus an inflation-plagued Chinese economy plus Russian strong-arming in natural gas plus two leading presidential candidates who are ignoramuses on economics plus a rising long bond in the face of Fed rate cuts does not a bull market make." http://www.peternavarro.com/2008.02.01_arch.html

    That is his oldest newsletter but I understand he was telling his economics students to "get out" of the market in fall 2007. Plus he was showing them a whole bunch of historical indicators that were all pointing in the wrong direction.

  12. In many cases It still made no difference by voss · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Quite a few people who had good savings still lost jobs, burned through their savings and retirement funds and in the end lost their homes anyway.

    The idea that only bad or irresponsible people lost their homes in foreclosure is magical thinking. You can be a responsible person and still get wiped out
    during a deep recession.

  13. Re:Could psychohistory be the answer? by Vaphell · · Score: 5, Insightful

    watch his speech for mortgage bankers he gave in 2006.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj8rMwdQf6k
    He said that:
    - implied government guarantees made dirt cheap loans for ninjas possible because they take risk out of the equation
    - interest rate much below supply/demand value doesn't help either because there is too much money in search of fat profits
    - nobody cared about sustainability when prices rose, if guy defaults, lender would make a profit either way
    - slicing and dicing, creating MBS introduced an incentive to give as much loans as possible just to resell it to wallstreet -> lending standards being taken care of by traditionally cautious lenders went out the window
    - bullshit rating assessment of MBS (lowest tranche made of the worst subprime mortgages, rated BBB- needed only 5% loss to channel the damage to higher layers)
    - bubble can't go on forever, soon everybody will have a house and nobody will want to buy - price ceiling and subsequent drop is inevitable, MBS will blow up, people borrowing against their appreciating home will be soooo SOL.

    Everything he said was common sense, no elaborate equations, aggregate demand and other bullshit.

    Schiff was wrong pretty much about one thing (assuming narrow time horizon) - countries of the world are much more dedicated to keeping the dollar and the US afloat (by destroying their own currency nonetheless) than he thought. In the long run he is right though, you can wipe your ass with your own currency only so long (printing, excessive borrowing), especially when you have nothing to show for. Also current eurozone troubles bought the US some time.

    another Austrian follower: Ron Paul
    In Sept 2001 Ron Paul said that thanks to passed legislation housing bubble will form only to pop later as all bubbles do. Common sense: make borrowing cheap and subsidize housing on top of that and there will be a bubble of epic proportions.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KONpt9a6HrI

  14. WTF are you talking about? by Sloppy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Consider the idiot that flies past a line of cars waiting to take an off ramp, and cuts in at the last minute. An act that is completely irrational (and risky) but he gets in ahead of the line, doesn't he?

    Game theory always does account for things like that, primarily because the behavior you're describing is not irrational. The very fact that you are predicting that "he gets ahead" is what makes it rational.

    Same for your "when they zig, you zag" idea: I have never heard of anyone using game theory that doesn't account for (and in fact, predict) that sort of behavior.

    If you want to come up with an example where game theory doesn't work, you're going to have to try a few thousand times harder than that.

    The reason game theory tends to disappoint, is that peoples' intuitive hunches for the payoffs of certain actions don't match the theory, but those hunches are what they act upon -- and that in turn changes all the payoffs, sometimes toward causing the hunches to becomes true (!) and sometimes toward causing the hunches to be more false. And that itself can be analyzed and predicted, but only if you just happen to know what other people's hunches are going to be -- and that is never predictable.

    Game theory is about finding optimum equilibriums for behavior; it can never tell you what people believe.

    BTW, back onto GP's subject.. a few months ago I went on an AdamCurtis-athon with some high expectations. It was a letdown, and not nearly as serious a criticism of the targets as I had hoped, especially since I just assumed some of them (e.g. the neo-cons) would be shooting fish in a barrel. I won't say watching all his docs is a waste of time -- it's not -- but don't get your hopes up. You'll find some good anecdotes, carefully selected interesting trivia, and great quotes like the one about economists and psychopaths .. but that's all.

    --
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