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Which OSS Clustered Filesystem Should I Use?

Dishwasha writes "For over a decade I have had arrays of 10-20 disks providing larger than normal storage at home. I have suffered twice through complete loss of data once due to accidentally not re-enabling the notification on my hardware RAID and having an array power supply fail and the RAID controller was unable to recover half of the entire array. Now, I run RAID-10 manually verifying that each mirrored pair is properly distributed across each enclosure. I would like to upgrade the hardware but am currently severely tied to the current RAID hardware and would like to take a more hardware agnostic approach by utilizing a cluster filesystem. I currently have 8TB of data (16TB raw storage) and am very paranoid about data loss. My research has yielded 3 possible solutions: Luster, GlusterFS, and Ceph." Read on for the rest of Dishwasha's question. "Lustre is well accepted and used in 7 of the top 10 supercomputers in the world, but it has been sullied by the buy-off of Sun to Oracle. Fortunately the creator seems to have Lustre back under control via his company Whamcloud, but I am still reticent to pick something once affiliated with Oracle and it also appears that the solution may be a bit more complex than I need. Right now I would like to reduce my hardware requirements to 2 servers total with an equal number of disks to serve as both filesystem cluster servers and KVM hosts."

"GlusterFS seems to be gaining a lot of momentum now having backing from Red Hat. It is much less complex and supports distributed replication and directly exporting volumes through CIFS, but doesn't quite have the same endorsement as Lustre."

"Ceph seems the smallest of the three projects, but has an interesting striping and replication block-level driver called Rados."

"I really would like a clustered filesystem with distributed, replicated, and striped capabilities. If possible, I would like to control the number of replications at a file level. The cluster filesystem should work well with hosting virtual machines in a high-available fashion thereby supporting guest migrations. And lastly it should require as minimal hardware as possible with the possibility of upgrading and scaling without taking down data."

"Has anybody here on Slashdot had any experience with one or more of these clustered file systems? Are there any bandwidth and/or latency comparisons between them? Has anyone experienced a failure and can share their experience with the ease of recovery? Does anyone have any recommendations and why?"

52 of 320 comments (clear)

  1. Repeat after me: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    RAID is not a backup solution!

    1. Re:Repeat after me: by NFN_NLN · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Parent currently is marked as "0" but is dead on. His opening statement talks about a data loss (x2), is "very paranoid about data loss" and his closing remarks talk about "ease of recovery". Your statements suggest you are primarily concerned about data loss.

      Clustered filesystems are complex software that specialize in concurrent server access, not increased redundancy.

      You need to research backups and/or remote replication. Or buy an enterprise file server that does everything including call-home when it detects a hardware issue.. not waste time on a CFS.

    2. Re:Repeat after me: by NFN_NLN · · Score: 2

      And don't forget about RPO. If you want synchronous file replication over any useful distance we're talking $$$. If asynchronous is acceptable then decide what an acceptable RPO is, along with your data change rate. With those you can decide if you can afford offsite replication. Most business decide nightly tapes are acceptable at that point.

    3. Re:Repeat after me: by NFN_NLN · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Except when they do support redundancy:

      http://www.gluster.com/community/documentation/index.php/Gluster_3.2:_Creating_Replicated_Volumes - Replicated volumes replicate files throughout the bricks in the volume. You can use replicated volumes in environments where high-availability and high-reliability are critical.

      RAID is still NOT A BACKUP!

      I have a 500 node replicated filesystem... and I just overwrote the wrong file, or a virus infected a file, or the file got corrupted...

      The good news is my 500 replicated nodes are all consistent. The bad news is... wheres my fucking file!

    4. Re:Repeat after me: by afabbro · · Score: 2

      Clustered filesystems are complex software that specialize in concurrent server access, not increased redundancy.

      Bingo. Spot on perfect answer.

      --
      Advice: on VPS providers
    5. Re:Repeat after me: by rwa2 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yeah, subby just needs to:

      • delete some porn. Sure, it's a good feeling to know it's all there, but you really just watch the top 1% over and over. "The redyouwankjizzhutdb Cloud" will do when you just want some random fix.
      • compress the rest. There's no reason you need lossless 1080p masters of all your home videos of your kids spitting up. A nice h264 compressed archive can be enjoyed more often, is more portable to all your mobile devices, and you'll barely notice the loss of quality when someday you might get to run it through an upsampling 3D holodeck reconstruction algorithm
      • Once it's a bit more manageable than 8TB, sort and periodically rsync the "important" stuff (i.e. the stuff you created yourself and can't re-download from someone else) to a backup server, preferably offsite at a friend/relative's house. You can start it with a 2TB "sneakernet" and just do incremental updates over the net thereafter.
      • don't worry about the unimportant stuff, random movies/mp3s. Let go of the hoarding, gotta catch 'em all mentality. Your time is much better spent elsewhere than collecting and organizing other people's crap for some false sense of "completion" achievement.
      • Here's a nice goal to keep in mind, if some burglar breaks into your house and swipes your file server and holds it for ransom (more than the cost of the hardware), you should be able to just say "meh, I can just restore from the offsite backup"
    6. Re:Repeat after me: by houghi · · Score: 2

      When I hear people talk about backup, the first thing I start to do is start talking about restoring. To me restoring is much more important then the backup.

      Many people think that a backup is a copy of files. Partly: if I overwrite a file I still want the original and not the overwritten file when I notice it after a month, so incremental is a must.

      Most (ok, till now all) restores I do is because of human stupidity. I delete or overwrite the wrong file. So I want to be able to do an easy restore. For my home directory that would be something like "cp backup/file file" or with any file browser as a GUI for the latest version available.

      So when I started looking for a backup, started to look how I wanted my restore to behave and then looked what the best backup solution was to achieve that. So besides the easy restore my parameters were:
      No programs needed for restore, except for standard stuff like cp and mount
      Running from cron
      no GUI
      Workable over a network
      Incremental

      This excluded already a lot of programs.

      At this moment I use storeBackup without the compression. I understand that other people will have other requirements and will get to something else (including writing their own program).
      What I took away from all this that the important part is restore, not backup. When you start looking from that angle, many things are already a lot easier to decide.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    7. Re:Repeat after me: by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      So you revert to the last snapshot. Or you mount the last snapshot and recover that file (you are making regular snapshots of your volumes, right?). That is not the problem with RAID. The problems that RAID does not address are:

      • What happens if there is a bug in the filesystem driver that causes the disk to be slowly filled with nonsense? Or the machine is compromised and malware overwrites the existing data.
      • What happens when thieves steal the server? Or when lightning strikes and fries all of the disk controllers?

      The second point is addressed by distributed filesystems - they may steal the server, but they (probably) won't steal the servers in both data centres at the same time. The first one can only really be addressed by off-site backups onto write-only media, or at least onto media that are removed from any machine that can write to them and stored safely.

      RAID is not a complete backup solution, but RAID and snapshots do provide most of the benefits at a fraction of the cost. If you want the other benefits, you need to be willing to spend a lot more money.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  2. Re:You Should... by RobDollar · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If ever, this article is the case for your comment. Dishwasha, what the living fuck are you doing with your life. Answer that and then maybe, just maybe, coherent answers will abound.

  3. Obligatory: RAID is not a backup by Anthony+Mouse · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is the only reason you're looking at a clustered filesystem that you don't want to lose data? Because if it is, it's probably not what you want. The purpose of a clustered filesystem is to minimize downtime in the face of a hardware failure. You still need a backup in the case of a software failure or in case you fat finger something, because a mass deletion can replicate to all copies.

    1. Re:Obligatory: RAID is not a backup by chrb · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you have more than one server then it's pretty easy to set up rsync with rolling backups (rsnapshot or rdiff-backup or whatever) which is more of a proper backup solution. It's also probably a bit easier to administrate than a clusterfs.

      Having said that, Hadoop's HDFS looks quite good. AFAIK it is pretty robust, and it runs on top of an existing FS so you won't need to repartition, which is useful. FUSE file system driver, and Java, will be a bit slower than in-kernel, but probably not an issue for bulk data storage.

      Oh, and another option is the Distributed Replicated Block Device. Though this is basically network RAID and not replication on a per file basis.

    2. Re:Obligatory: RAID is not a backup by Enfixed · · Score: 2

      Totally agree, the clustered approach doesn't seem to solve the problem posed. It's simple, buy a bunch of 2TB drives and set them up with ZFS. Configure a nightly snapshot job to another similar machine and call it a day. You can have a larger storage area with a fully redundant backup for less than 2K in parts.

      --
      Sigs are bad for you...
    3. Re:Obligatory: RAID is not a backup by allenw · · Score: 2

      The fuse support has likely gotten worse since no one on the core dev team really spends any time with it. I'd be surprised if it still compiles.

    4. Re:Obligatory: RAID is not a backup by Doc+Hopper · · Score: 2

      Mass delete.

      ZFS with a snapshot schedule. Sorted, as long as you catch it within the reach of your oldest snapshot.

      Overwrite with bad data.

      ZFS with a snapshot schedule. Sorted.

      Silent filesystem corruption.

      ZFS. Sorted.

      Batches of disks at one end of the bathtub curve.

      ZFS verifies the data, and when your disks poop out the data is rendered read-only long before just about anything else would have realized there's a problem.

      Trees going through your roof.

      ZFS scheduled remote replication to a second array at your buddy's house. All your data remains intact, including snapshots to protect against all the above issues.

      Bets are off if the tree hits you, though.

  4. PronFS by igny · · Score: 2

    Where is PronFS when we desperately need one?

    --
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. - Yogi Berra
    1. Re:PronFS by Jeremi · · Score: 2

      Where is PronFS when we desperately need one?

      It's widely available... these days it goes by the name "the Internet".

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
  5. I know this isn't what you asked but... by KendyForTheState · · Score: 5, Interesting

    20 disks seems like overkill for your storage needs. Seems like the more disks you use the greater the risk of failure of one or more of them. Also, your electricity bill must be through the roof. I have 4 3TB drives with a 3Ware controller in RAID5 array which gives me the same storage capacity with 1/5th the drives Aren't you making this more complicated than it needs to be? ...Maybe that's the point?

    --
    ...I just came for the free beer.
    1. Re:I know this isn't what you asked but... by doodleboy · · Score: 2

      I also have a 3ware card and four 1 TB drives in RAID 5 in my 10.04 desktop PC at home. Some of that space is exported via iSCSI to a couple of Windows boxes. Then I back the RAID array up with a couple of external SATA drives. My wife thinks this is excessive, but I lost a lot of data, once, nothing critical but stuff I cared about, emails and papers from college, pics of friends and family, etc. But when the drive started throwing SMART errors I thought, yup, better go pick up a new drive soon... 3 days later, it was dead.

      The irony is that one of my main responsibilities at work is backups, mostly with shell scripts I wrote myself.

      Many of you probably have most of your important stuff on one drive that you don't back up. At the very least, pick up an external USB drive and schedule backups for anything you care about.

  6. ZFS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    LVM, mdadm & Ext4 or ZFS seems like it would be more then adequate for this. A 2U server can hold 36TB of raw data with software raid and consumer disks. 2.5" would be preferable for home use considering power usage unless your a fellow Canadian; in which case servers make great space heaters.

  7. Re:ReiserFS by KendyForTheState · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Uh... he DID confess to the crime AND lead the cops to his wife's body. I know...sarcasm, right?

    --
    ...I just came for the free beer.
  8. You still need to make a decision by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You ask about the technical specifications; but, when commenting regarding the three likely candidates you found, you've put philosophical objections first and foremost. I think you first need to figure out which factor is more important to you - specs, or philosophy. Otherwise you're probably going to waste a lot of time arguing in circles.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:You still need to make a decision by SoupIsGood+Food · · Score: 2

      Philosophical objections are valid. It's why people decided to go with Open Source solutions in the first place... chose the right philosophy, and you're buying into a system that will have developer and user support for a long time, and pay off in more features implemented in satisfactory ways.

      If a tech has the right vision, it will go a long, long way, where pure technical excellence on its own is no guarantee the tech will grow with the user.

  9. No ZFS? by theskipper · · Score: 4, Interesting

    How about ZFS with your RAID controllers in single drive mode (or worst case JBOD)? Let ZFS handle the vdevs as mirrors or raidz1/2 as you wish. ZFSforLinux is rapidly maturing and definitely stable enough for a home nas. Or go the OpenIndiana route if that's what you're comfortable with.

    My 4TB setup has actually been a joy to maintain since committing to ZFS, with BTRFS waiting in the wings. The only downside is biting the bullet and using modern CPUs and 4-8GB memory. Recommissioning old hardware isn't the ideal way to go, ymmv.

    Just a thought.

    1. Re:No ZFS? by hjf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ZFS isn't free anymore. It's all commercial and proprietary and no bugfixes or anything get released outside a big bad support contract with Oracle.

      If you want the free version you can still use v28 on FreeBSD and Solaris Express (no upgrades in over 1 year). Works great, the only thing you don't get is ZFS crypto (transparent encryption).

    2. Re:No ZFS? by Zemplar · · Score: 2

      Go read that "new" Oracle license and you'll realize Solaris isn't nearly as free as it once was.

      Too bad, Solaris was gaining more momentum while it was available for free for any purpose, not just "...only for the purpose of developing, testing, prototyping and demonstrating your applications, and not for any other purpose."

  10. Thoughts on OCFS by trawg · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We have been using OCFS (Oracle Cluster File System) for some time in production between a few different servers.

    Now, I am not a sysadmin so can't comment on that aspect. I'm like a product manager type, so I only really see two sides of it: 1) when it is working normally and everything is fine 2) when it stops working and everything is broken.

    Overall from my perspective, I would rate it as "satisfactory". The "working normally" aspect is most of the time; everything is relatively seamless - we add new content to our servers using a variety of techniques (HTTP uploads, FTP uploads, etc) and they are all magically distributed to the nodes.

    Unfortunately we have had several problems where something happens to the node and it seems to lose contact with the filesystem or something. At that point the node pretty much becomes worthless and needs to be rebooted, which seems to fix the problem (there might be other less drastic measures but this seems to be all we have at the moment).

    So far this has JUST been not annoying enough for us to look at alternatives. Downtime hasn't been too bad overall; now we know what to look for we have alarming and stuff set up so we can catch failures a little bit sooner before things spiral out of control.

    I have very briefly looked at the alternatives listed in the OP and look forward to reading what other reader's experiences are like with them.

    1. Re:Thoughts on OCFS by afabbro · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Thank you, this is one of the few valid answers to my primary question which is of actual experience with clustered file systems. I don't think most of the responders got the clue that I'm looking for a solution that will hopefully scale over a decade's worth of time.

      There is a question of missing clues, but I don't think it's in the responders. You either asked your question poorly or you don't understand your problem. Your question centers of being "paranoid about data loss" and yet you're discussing technologies designed to manage concurrent access to a filesystem. Do you put in gigabit ethernet when you want faster USB performance?

      I'll likely be upgrading to a Super Micro 2U Twin with QDR Infiniband

      Give me a break...

      --
      Advice: on VPS providers
    2. Re:Thoughts on OCFS by Macka · · Score: 2

      How is this an answer to your question? You identified 3 cluster filesystem types that protect against hardware loss by distributing the data over a cluster of systems - but OCFS2 isn't like that. It's a filesystem that's designed to provide concurrent shared access to a filesystem by a cluster of servers, which in combination with a HA framework can provide a platform that applications can use to protect against node failure, not disk failure. With OCFS2 you still have to make the storage highly available with a RAID solution plus manage concurrent connectivity via a SAN, iSCSI, etc. So unfortunately this is not an answer to your question at all. The filesystem types you've identified would do what you want, but they're also expensive for a home solution because you have to throw more computers at the problem to increase redundancy and performance.

      Have you considered using software RAID (mdadm) on Linux instead of a hardware RAID controller? It has a useful feature that allows you to grow existing raid volumes by adding more disks. Maybe combine that with a small UPS to allow your system to shutdown gracefully in the event of a power failure. Alternatively, if you want to stick with a hardware solution have you taken a look at Drobo? I have no personal experience with Drobo, but from what I've read their proprietary RAID solution allows you to grow your array by just popping new disks in or increase capacity by replacing existing disks with larger ones on the fly. They have a couple of different models that can scale to 16TB. Best of luck with your search.

  11. I was going to say Lustre, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I was going to say Lustre, but then I saw that you only have 16TB. 15 years ago that would have been impressive, but these days, those supercomputers you mention probably have that much in DRAM, and their file storage is in the multi-petabyte range. Lustre is optimized for large scale clusters, in which you have entire nodes (a node is a computer, here) dedicated to I/O - bringing external data into the in-cluster network fabric, while other nodes are compute nodes - they don't talk to the outside world, except by getting data via the I/O nodes.

    That's why you'll see all this talk of OSSs and OSTs, as though they'd be distinct systems - on a large scale cluster they are.

    For only 16TB, what you want is a SAN, or maybe even a NAS.

    If you want open source, then go with openfiler. It supports pretty much everything. I haven't stress tested it, but it seems to work well for that order of magnitude of data.

  12. Bad Dog. Wrong Tree! by SmurfButcher+Bob · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You will spend all this effort to build this solution... and then your house will catch fire.

    On the good side, the fire department WILL manage to save the basement by filling it with 80,000 gallons of water at 2,000GPM per fire engine.

    Or, you'll be wiped out by a flood. Or a drunk will drive through the side of your house. Or you'll have a gas leak and the house will detonate. Or carpenter ants will eat away the floor joists.

    Raid is not a backup solution. Neither is replication... if you whack the data, it'll likely be replicated. If you get a compromised machine somewhere, files they touch will likely be replicated. They only thing you're creating is an overly complex hardware mitigation. If THAT is how you define "data preservation"... you're doing it wrong.

    Look more for a solution to move stuff offsite - a cheap pair of N routers running Tomato or OpenWRT, to a neighbor's house, and you reciprocate with each other. Bonus points if you use versions, transaction logs, journals, etc.

    --

    help me i've cloned myself and can't remember which one I am

  13. Re:You Should... by slaker · · Score: 2

    As someone with considerably more than 8TB of porn (and a similarly vast quantity of non-porn content, handily digitized and indexed), until recently I used paired servers each holding 12TB of drives in RAID6 with 2 drives as hot spares (64 physical drives on four machines). I used rsync to maintain a second copy of all my data. I've decided that's insane, and I've moved to using a single 36TB FreeBSD server (running zfs for my storage pools) that has enough internal expansion to accommodate another 36TB without getting into external expanders. I've paired that with an LTO4 changer that I bought off Craigslist for around $1900. At the moment I have just enough tapes to have two complete copies of my data. I'd like to get another hundred tapes so I can comfortably manage grandfather-father-son backups and have some spares in reserve.

    I really don't have any confidence in common RAID with large arrays of large drives, since the possibility of a hard error during a rebuild or resync is too high for comfort. Large data sets really need to be mirrored and if at all possible stored in some offline fashion. That's really the only path to reliable storage.

    --
    -- I wanna decide who lives and who dies - Crow T. Robot, MST3K
  14. Re:AWS EBS by Enfixed · · Score: 2

    Why are you spending your money like that? Sneaker-net your drives to AWS EBS. It's a no-brainer.

    AWS EBS = $0.10 per allocated GB per month or $102.40 per TB..... I doubt power and hardware is costing him > $819.20 a month.

    --
    Sigs are bad for you...
  15. Lustre by JerkBoB · · Score: 3, Informative

    Lustre is pretty cool, but it's not magic pixie dust. It won't break the laws of physics and somehow make a single node faster than it would be as a NFS server. It's for situations when a single file server doesn't have the bandwidth to handle lots of simultaneous readers and writers. A "small" Lustre filesystem these days usually has 8-16 object storage servers serving mid-high tens of TB. The high end filesystems have literally hundreds of OSSes and multiple PB served. The largest I know of right now is the 5PB Spider filesystem at Oak Ridge National Labs.

    One nice thing about Lustre on the low end is that you can grow it... Start out small and add new OSSes and OSTs as you need them. This often makes sense in Life Sciences and digital animation scenarios where the initial fast storage needs are unknown or the initial budget is limited (but expected to grow). But if you're never planning to get beyond the capacity of a single node or two, Lustre is just going to be overhead. I don't know much about the other clustered filesystem options.

    --
    A host is a host from coast to coast...
    Unless it's down, or slow, or fails to POST!
  16. Fix the machines first... by k9mach3 · · Score: 2

    Lustre - no replication (it's on the roadmap for sometime in the next few years), and it relies on access to shared storage (read: FC/iSCSI disk array, and if that fails you loose your data.). OCFS - no replication, designed for multiple servers accessing one array. Ceph - has replication, but still in active development, and somewhat complex. Good if you don't mind loosing your data (it's in alpha... if it breaks, you get to keep both pieces...) GlusterFS - I have no experience with it, but it seems to be pretty stable at this point. And has some degree of replication with is a plus. If all you're going for is replicated storage across two systems I'd recommend just setting them up separately and rsync'ing from one to the other. Otherwise, one filesystem crash will take out all your data - parallel filesystems can buy you some reliability, but still can't be considered "backup" strategies. And you still need to pay attention to things like RAID (at least RAID6! RAID5 is likely to fall apart after one disk failure with >2 TB disks),

  17. Performance by speedingant · · Score: 3, Informative

    What kind of performance are you after? If you're not after anything over 40MB/S, I'd go for unRAID. I use this at home and it's brilliant. I've replaced many drives over the years, and I've had two hard drives fail with no massive consequences (data isn't striped). Plus, many many plugins are now available. SimpleFeatures (replacement gui), Plex Media Server, SQL, Email notifications with APCUPSD support etc etc.

  18. Re:Drobo? by speedingant · · Score: 2

    Slow as molasses though. Way slower than any other solution out there..

  19. Re:You Should... by JWSmythe · · Score: 2

        I have to ask, what the hell are you going to do with 8TB of porn? What's the total runtime of all of that?

        Consider, the whole Doctor Who series. 202GB is almost 11 days, 20 hours of runtime. Assuming roughly the same size, which may allow for higher resolution video with better compression, and rounding 202GB at 11 days 20 hrs down to 11 days (giving you bigger files per hour) you'd be looking at roughly 435 days.

        If you beat your meat for an hour a day, ever day, you'd have 10,455 days (or 28.6 years) of masturbation material.

        If you're just a perv, and for some reason like to have porn playing to enhance the ambiance of your home (which may be a bit funky with the aroma of semen and lube), assuming you sleep for 8 hours a day and don't need to have the porn playing while you sleep, you could leave it playing for every waking hour for 1.8 years before you ever watched the same smut twice.

        Based on those numbers, you haven't viewed all the videos to even ensure you downloaded what you think you did. You most likely you have a significant number of malware invested decoy videos. Well, unless you believe that all those DRM signups and codec suggestions are legitimate.

        So, based on this, why the hell do you need, or think you need, all that stuff and storage? There is a word for it. "hoarder". You should consider asking your shrink about disposophobia, and hypersexuality through masturbation. You can get help. It will save you a fortune in lube and unnecessary computer gear.

       

    --
    Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
  20. Re:Two servers using ZFS by drsmithy · · Score: 2

    I'll have to look more deeply in to ZFS as I keep hearing it thrown out there. I should have probably qualified my statement as "thereby supporting live guest migrations".

    Well, you still don't need a clustered filesystem for that. Or are you using file-backed virtual disks and using your data storage servers as virtualisation hosts as well ?

    If you are, my advise would be to split out your data storage to a separate set of machines. So:

    Two data storage servers, software RAID6 (or RAIDZ2 if ZFS), replicating, serving NFS, CIFS, iSCSI, etc. You can set them up as a failover pair as well if you really want HA, but you'll need to either a) be prepared for slow NFS performance (sync mount) or b) get some hardware that will let you make a caching SSD visibile to both hosts.

    X virtualisation hosts, mounting the data store via NFS. You will be able to live migrate VMs between them regardless of whether the NFS sever is a pair of HA machines, standalone, or requires manual intervention in case of a failure. Obviously in the latter two cases there is the potential for data loss within the VMs for the data they keep on virtual disks, should the storage server suffer a hard failure - but your need to store important, up-to-the-minute data on those VMs should be fairly low, if it exists at all.

    This is basically the system I have at home, and also nearly identical to the production system at my last employer (albeit with a much higher-end, fully redundant NetApp NAS rather than DIYed).

  21. Re:You Should... by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I have to ask...

    I'll go out on a limb and say it is just hoarding behavior. I wouldn't be surprised if slaker (53818) has a whole bunch of other stuff, besides data, but at least the data hoarding takes up less room than books, and isn't as sick as animal hoarding...

    Having observed some hoarders, first hand, I think something goes off in their head that is like a "gotta collect them all" flag. It usually is concentrated on a favorite subject, but it could even be set off with garbage, like tearing open a package and setting down the wrapper... one is trash, but, if it is not discarded, the second one is the "start of a collection", and off they go.

    --
    This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
  22. Not a viable solution by pavera · · Score: 3

    If you're looking to have any kind of decent performance in your VMs this just won't work.
    I've worked with VMs on all different kinds of storage (fiber channel SAN, local disk, iSCSI SAN (over 1Gb and 10Gb ethernet), Local hardware raid, NFS file shares, GFS2 (as in the RedHat cluster file system), and MooseFS and GlusterFS) All of these have been either in large test labs or in production cloud deployments. I've never had a cluster file system get close to passing muster as a storage medium for VM usage. IO is the number 1 bottleneck in virtualized environments, and these schemes just add completely unacceptable latency and bandwidth restrictions.

    The only way to really run VMs is fiber channel SAN, local disk (or hardward raid), or iSCSI with 10GbE (on the storage server side). Even iSCSI with 2GbE (2x1GbE bonded) is not speedy enough to support more than 5-10 VMs running concurrently. You'll start to see problems at 5 VMs if the VMs are windows... For whatever reason Windows really likes to write to the disk. Currently I have 4 servers in my basement, a single storage server (6 2TB drives in a raid6, giving 8TB of usable disk) and 3 VM servers (2 2TB drives each, in hardward RAID1). I run the VMs locally and back them up to the storage machine over iSCSI nightly. I also have a shared volume on the storage system that all VMs and my household computers can access. I use openfiler for my storage system, if I had the money it would be nice to get a second storage server and replicate it (which openfiler supports), but I don't have that cash just sitting around right now

    Backing up 8TB of data (ok, so I have about 5TB used), is basically impossible offsite, so we have a "special" folder on the shared drive that is backed up using crashplan, its about 600GB, and the first backup took nearly 3 months over a 5mbps upload.

    The above setup is the only one I've found that is both a) somewhat affordable, and b) performs well enough to do actual work in the VMs. It provides for some mobility in the event of a hardware failure (if a VM server crashes, I can run the crashed VMs via iSCSI on another server (from the day old backup), If the storage server crashes, the only "important" data is the 600GB in the special folder... which would take 2 months to download over my home connection... But could be downloaded in stages, IE get the most important stuff immediately). If both a vm server and the storage server crash, I'm out the VMs that were running on the vm server, but again the important data is off-site, and the VMs can be rebuilt in a day or less.

  23. Re:Drobo? by Ralphus+Maximus · · Score: 2

    Stay away from Drobo. I just bought a new unit, and the only way to see how much "real" free space you have is to use their windows based dashboard program. I have five 1TB drives in mine, the dashboard reports 3.5tb, while the filesystem mounted on both windows and linux report I have 17TB of space on the drives. I contacted their support, and they say it's as designed.

    Cheers,
    RM

    --
    Nobody's as dumb, as I appear to be
  24. response to OP, please read parent as well by dutchwhizzman · · Score: 2

    You don't seem to understand a few basics about storage, so let me explain them briefly:

    Backup is a method of storing your data in a safe place, so if you accidentally or purposefully delete it, or if you have a (severe) hardware failure, you still have your data. This automatically means you'll want to store your backup data on a totally, physically separated medium. If someone wants to destroy your data, a distributed filesystem won't do you any good. Taking one way snapshots over a network link to a remote location, for instance using rsync and a remote filesystem that supports snapshots, can be a viable solution for short term backups, but if you want longer term retention, "old hat" backup equipment still is a viable solution. How are you planning to restore from data corruption that happened 2 weeks ago? How do you protect against single sector failure? I have yet to see consumer grade raid controllers that actually do a read-verify on every read, so you're depending on raid-scrubbing to detect failures, with the setups you're looking at. A backup is for recovery of data lost on your primary storage system. You can make your primary storage system resilient with distributing and snapshotting it to an inch of it's life, but it's not a backup. If you don't make backups, your data obviously isn't worth it, so why bother making your primary storage resilient in the first place?

    A "Super blahblahbla" or whatever hardware you are planning to buy now, will not give you "a decade's worth of time". Look at 10, 20 and 30 years ago. Would you honestly say you'd want to store all your data on a state of the art 7*40GB RAID5 system, as was the bees' knees in 2001? Or how about a pristine 40MB IDE hard drive, the best you could buy in 1991? I think 1981 was still cassette or single sided floppy disc territory.... Seriously, never look forward more than 3 years with setups like this.

    --
    I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
  25. He did not ask for a backup solution, calm down. by Barryke · · Score: 2

    Stop bashing on the Raid!=Backup thing, we all know and its irrelevant to the question.
    I believe his main concern is having one giant volume (say 30 TB) to store data, and not about using it as a backup solution. (he did not even use the word)
    A backup for that volume would simply be duplicating the setup offsite, possibly offline archiving the cloned disks or (what i'd do) the complete hardware setup.

    I once investigated GlusterFS too, was impressed and descided that its for larger scale projects and for me only overcomplicates things.
    I ultimately solved this by buying several cheap QNAP TS410's and giving up on single volumes over 6TB of size, and mounting those seperately on the machines that use that data.

    I'm still interested however in the possibility of running GlusterFS on QNAP products however.

    --
    Hivemind harvest in progress..
  26. Re:You Should... by Sparx139 · · Score: 2

    You can't mention as a passing fact that you have 8TB worth of porn and not expect people to respond with "wait, what?"

    --
    Our culture doesn't get smarter, it just finds new ways of being retarded.
  27. Also ACFS (next generation of OCFS...) by Meetch · · Score: 2
    Firstly, no I don't work for Oracle, and never have, and I know how hard it can be to justify using their products, especially the ones you pay for(!) considering some of the things I've seen, but credit where credit's due...

    OCFS was originally designed specifically for storing Oracle datafiles, in a cluster, in a non-POSIX fashion. After that came OCFS2, which is POSIX compliant, but can deadlock when NFS exported due to the way NFS handles locking, in a way that can be worked around with the "nodirplus" NFS mount option (not available on all OSes, but Linux is ok). They since developed ASM (Automatic(ed?) Storage Management) which threw away the traditional filesystem presentation of your oracle datafiles, and subequently bundled that into the release of 11gR2 clusterware and extended the functionality to give us ACFS - ASM Clustered Filesystem.

    11gR2 clusterware is designed to be clustered with shared storage, and depending on the options when created will happily give you a POSIX compliant clustered filesystem for any occasion - datafiles, regular files - whatever. It is Oracle's implementation of their "best practice" Stripe And Mirror Everything methodology with the aim of not only high availability, but consistently high performance, through spreading all your data across all your disks, and implementing mirroring in a sane way too (split your disks into two (or three!) failure groups, and the software will ensure there are 2 (or 3!) copies of each block. All you do is add disks to the pool(s), and if you have the space you can dynamically remove disks from the pool too. You can fsck, mkfs, mount and unmount it, take snapshots (!), and the lead-up to all that is all not much of a stretch from LVM. Google for Oracle ACFS and see the "Basic Steps to Manage Oracle ACFS Systems" section.

    OCFS was only ever available for Linux, but ACFS now supports other platforms... probably doesn't matter to you. The one catch I've found so far is the ~1Gb RAM overhead to run the clusterware PER NODE. There's other reasonable stuff, like you need the network layer to be up in order to start the ACFS supporting services, so you can't put anything related to the basic boot process on those volumes.

    The cost of 11gR2 clusterware? ... nothing. I think it's one of very few "free" (as in beer) products they do. It will work on anything they've compiled it for though - generally means your Enterprise OS like RHEL5 (and should be easy to shoehorn onto CentOS), a recent SuSE release, and of course their own Oracle Enterprise Linux - which I believe is also free to use, but pay through the nose if you want them to support your implementation. Remember that this system is the platform for some very expensive Oracle products, but at the same time it is perhaps a younger product than some you'll have already looked at.

    As for the fencing method, it all works via heartbeat to disks in your ACFS pool. If the clusterware can't "ping" the disk within the threshold, it forces the system that's having the issue to reboot. Such is the nature of ensuring sanity when using shared disk. I suggest looking at it if your boxen can spare the RAM and you're happy to accept their OTN license agreement, as it really does seem to be one of Oracle's better products at an amazing price for what you get.

  28. Re:The Cloud, obviously. by jareth-0205 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I would be grateful if this bit of 'humour' could not be posted to *every single vaguely cloud-related post*.

    http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2356014&cid=36928876

    http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1683582&cid=32542918

    http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2499970&cid=37882212

    http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2489600&cid=37805882

    Christ. It was only mildly amusing to begin with, let it go.

  29. xtreemfs by marcello_dl · · Score: 2

    http://www.xtreemfs.org/ is a distributed fs with no single point of failure (i guess, depending on the configuration), for high latency networks, if you want to put nodes on WAN. It's fairly easy to set up, now it replicates also mutable files, I dunno about its performance or reliability.

    --
    ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
  30. Ill fit... by Junta · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Those filesystems are not designed primarily with your scenario in mind. If you want a hardware agnostic support, use software RAID or a non-cluster filesystem like ZFS.

    Distributing your storage will probably not enhance your ability to survive a mishap. In fact, the complexity of the situation probably increases your risk of messing up your data (I have heard more than a couple of instances of someone accidentally destroying all the contents of a distributed filesystem, but in those professional contexts they have a real backup strategy. You'll be pissing away money on power to drive multiple computers that you really don't need to power.

    If you care about catastrophic recovery, you need a real backup solution. This may mean identifying what's "important" from a practical home situation. If you don't mind downtime so long as your data is accessible in a day or two (e.g. time to get replacement parts) without going to your backup media and without suffering the loss of non-critical data, then also having a software raid or ZFS is the way to go. If you want to avoid downtime (within reason), get yourself a box with basic redundancy designed into it like a tower server from Dell/HP/IBM. If Intel, you would sadly want to go Xeon to get ECC, on AMD you can get ECC cheaper. In terms of drive count, I'd dial it back to 4 3TB drives in a RAID5 (or 5 in RAID6 if you wanted), safe on power and reduce risk in the system.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  31. Something Else by Nite_Hawk · · Score: 2

    Hi,

    I work for a supercomputing center and am the maintainer of our 1/2 PB Lustre deployment. I also hang out on the GlusterFS and Ceph IRC channels and mailing lists and have spent some time looking at both solutions for some of our other systems.

    For what you want, Lustre isn't really the right answer. It's very fast for large transfer (though slow for small ones). On our storage I'm getting about 12GB/s under ideal conditions and that's totally uninteresting as far as Lustre goes. There are very few other options out there that are competitive at the ultra-high-end (ie PBs of storage at 100+ GB/s). On the other hand you *really* need to understand the intricacies of how it works to properly maintain it. It doesn't handle hardware failures very gracefully and there are still numerous bugs in production releases. A lot of progress has been made since the Oracle acquisition, but it's going to be a while before I'd consider Lustre mainstream. I wouldn't use it for anything other than scratch (ie temporary data) storage space on a top500 cluster.

    GlusterFS and Ceph are both interesting. GlusterFS is pretty easy to setup and has a replication mode but last I heard there were some issues simultaneously enabling striping and replication at the same time. Now that RedHat is backing it I imagine its going to pick up in popularity really fast. Also, having the metadata distributed on the storage servers eliminates a major problem that Lustre still has: A single centralized metadata server. Having said this it's still pretty young as far these kinds of filesystems go, and it's not immune from problems either. Read through the mailing list.

    Ceph is also very interesting, but you should really run it on btrfs and that's just not there yet. You can also run it on XFS but there have been some bugs (see the mailing list). Ceph is really neat but I wouldn't consider it production ready. Rumors abound though that dreamhost is going to be making some announcements soon. Watch this space.

    Ok, if you are still reading, here's what I would do if I were you:

    If you are running on straight up gigabit ethernet you basically have no reason to bother with distributed storage from a performance perspective. 10GE is a cheap upgrade path and a single server will easily be able to handle the number of clients you'll have on a home network. From a reliability standpoint I've personally found that something like 70-80% of the hardware problems I have are with hardware raid controllers. I'd stick with something like ZFS on BSD (or Nexenta if you don't mind staying under 18TB for the free license). Then export via NFS or iscsi depending on your needs. If you want HA across multiple servers, here's what people are doing on BSD with ZFS:

    http://blather.michaelwlucas.com/archives/221

  32. Keep it simple, stupid. by jimicus · · Score: 3, Informative

    Two issues here:

    1. You're approaching the problem from the wrong angle. IMV, the angle you take should be "how long can can I afford to be without this data and how much money am I prepared to throw at a solution?" rather than "what technology exists that I can use to make the system more reliable?". Taking the former approach allows you to plan exactly how you'd deal with data loss - whether it's through human error, software/hardware failure, fire, theft, flood or what have you. Taking the latter approach tends to result in some whacking great Heath Robinson (or if you're American, Rube Goldberg) of a solution that still has a whacking great hole in it somewhere.

    2. 8TB of data is not an enormous amount by any modern standard. You can buy a NAS box off-the-shelf today that will take 12x3TB hard disks for 36TB (18TB if you've got the good sense to run them in a RAID 1+0 configuration) of storage; at this level they typically have replication built right into them so you can buy two and replicate one to the other (though like all replication-type solutions, it's not a form of backup and you mustn't treat it as such). If that doesn't appeal, simply put a couple of SATA controllers in a cheap box and run OpenFiler. Anything you cobble together yourself based on the latest clustered filesystem du jour will suffer from one huge flaw - a system that's designed to be highly-available is frequently less reliable than one that isn't, simply because you're making it that much more complicated that there's a lot more to go wrong.

  33. Re:Drobo? by LoRdTAW · · Score: 3, Interesting

    STAY AWAY FROM DROBO!

    I had a client ask me to set one up for them. You don't partition it like a standard raid array, you format it to some predetermined size that may be larger then the physical disk space in the machine (through their drobo dashboard). If you have three 1 TB disks you will have around 2TB of actual storage but you can format it for 16TB under Win 7. This is achieved via their "beyond raid" technology which fools the OS into thinking there is more disk space than there actually is. This lets the user make one large volume now and then add disks in the future, even disks of different sizes can be mixed and matched. If you start to go beyond the physical capacity, the array degrades and goes offline until you add another disk and wait hours or days for the disks to reorganize. My client was consolidating her photography library to the drobo when it just crapped out. Turns out she ran over the physical limit.

    Then if your lucky, your computer be it Apple or Windows will take upward of 30 to 45 minutes to boot and shutdown if the fucking thing is plugged in and powered on during either of those two procedures. Drobo recommends you move your data to another set of disks and re-format your drobo. As if people have a few spare TB of disk capacity just sitting around, that's the reason they bought your shit box to begin with, assholes. Its a known issue.

    I have personally used hardware raid 5, software block level raid 5 and ZFS. If you ask me id rather have the file system do the RAID work at the file system level, not the block level where the file system is ignorant of what lies beneath. ZFS is the way to go until BTRFS is fully stable and feature competitive with ZFS. Then you do incremental backups offsite, either to a family or friends house or to a commercial off site backup provider.

    And what is your 16 TB consist of? If its movies and the like then don't bother spending money backing it up. If its self make video and other personal large files then that makes sense. I know of people who spent oodles of cash to backup silly crap like downloaded movies that can easily be replaced or rented from Netflix.

    With the way things are going in the storage world, SSD's will eclipse mechanical disks at the desktop level and mechanical disks will be relegated to backup duty where they far outstrip SSD's in capacity. It reminds me of when tape drives were the king of capacity, often tapes were several orders of magnitude larger than current hard disks and tapes were cheap. They were slow but my god did they have capacity. Now it looks like SSD's will assume the role of desktop storage and to some degree server storage while mechanical disks will be used for large backup systems and file servers. Mechanical hard drives of today will be tomorrows tape drives and then obsolete when SSD's begin to overtake then in capacity. By then we might have something even higher in capacity like holographic or some other sci-fi sounding storage.

  34. Performance, not recovery by riley · · Score: 2

    Clustered filesystems are not designed to make your data safer, or to provide ease of recovery. In fact, they make both of those things a bit more difficult. In the case of Lustre, the point is performance -- I have N servers that I am willing to dedicate to serving the filesystem, I can therefore get N times the throughput for large distributed jobs.

    File systems that provide replication help, but unless it is copy on write (COW), it does nto take the place of backups.

    If you are paranoid about data safety, invest in a backup solution. The only reason to use a distributed file system is for increased performance.