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Google's Patent Lawyer On Why the Patent System Is Broken

The San Francisco Chronicle features an interview with Google's patent counsel, Tim Porter, who argues that "... what many people can agree on is the current system is broken and there are a large number of software patents out there fueling litigation that resulted from a 10- or 15-year period when the issuance of software patents was too lax. Things that seemed obvious made it through the office until 2007, when the Supreme Court finally said that the patent examiners could use common sense. Patents were written in a way that was vague and overly broad. (Companies are) trying to claim something that's really an idea (which isn't patentable). There are only so many ways to describe a piston, but software patents are written by lawyers in a language that software engineers don't even understand. They're being used to hinder innovation or skim revenue off the top of a successful product." Porter is speaking in particular about the snarls that have faced (and still face) Android, based on Microsoft patents; he blames some of the mess on a patent regime where "you don't know what patents cover until courts declare that in litigation. What that means is people have to make decisions about whether to fight or whether to reach agreements."

18 of 260 comments (clear)

  1. yup by arbiter1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Most new products come out and they don't even know they violated patents for years in most cases cause companies that hold the so called patent even know they could claim anything til years later.

    1. Re:yup by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The system you describe is utterly ridiculous. It requires that anyone creating a new product broadcast detailed information to their competitors, while also requiring patent holders to maintain a constant vigil where they have to read the perhaps 10's of thousands of posts day to see if anything from there portfolio is being infringed. Do you realize the manpower that would take? For a company with a large number of patents they would require dozens or even hundreds of reviewers, each of which would have to have sufficient education to have the entire portfolio memorized, while also understanding the detailed technical specifications of myriad products.

      It would be far easier to simply modify the patent system so that obviousness and prior art is given much more weight patent examiners.

    2. Re:yup by bloodhawk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The current patent system is ridiculous, however your suggestion takes that ridiculousness to a whole new level, by some chance do you work for the patent office? that is the type of even more broken system I would expect to come out of there. You want companies to broadcast their plans to their competitors? you want people with patents to read through what would be thousands of product ideas a day? hell you would need a team dedicated 24x7 to read all of the intended product developments.

  2. Still is bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The issuance of patents is *still* bad, it wasn't just some period in the past.

    The problem stems from the core software patent problem, trade secrets work so well in software's case that no patent examiner can be aware of the body of prior art that exists. Likewise he can't know if it's an invention, or just an incremental change from what already exists.

    And he may be fooled that the patent office has changed its spots, it hasn't. It still defaults to issuing patents when in doubt.

    1. Re:Still is bad by billcopc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That is the fundamental problem. To the average human, a patent is total gibberish. To an expert, it is still gibberish. The only people who can "read" patents are lawyers, and they lack the subject matter expertise to make any real sense of it.

      I say patent writers need to "sell" the patent examiner on the merit of their patent. You want an exclusive license to extort the world with an idea ? Ok, prove to me that you've actually created something new. If it's a tech patent, it needs to be reviewed by an examiner with at least 5-10 years of experience in the field. That way they will be better equipped to tell if the patent covers something trivial.

      If the greedy hypercapitalist swine who support the patent system aren't willing to abolish it, then we should at least require that the patents be written in such a way that a novice can understand it. It's like usability testing. I don't expect my 80-year-old grandparents to understand (for example) FTP, but even a first-year CS student should be able to figure out from the first paragraph that it is a file transfer protocol that copies bits from one networked computer to another. By extension, an examiner with 5-10 years of applied experience should be able to identify which parts of a proposed file transfer protocol are painfully obvious, and which parts are innovative and potentially patent-worthy.

      I personally can't think of any such innovations over existing protocols, but that's why I don't hold any patents. To a one-trick tech wizard like me, everything is obvious, as it should be. Just like my father thinks I'm a retard for not knowing that light flutter in my car's hum is caused by a bad fuel line pump, because he's a freakin' mechanic - it's obvious to him. We need to ditch obvious patents once and for all so the lawyers can find something better to do, and leave us experts in peace so we can start innovating again.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
  3. When lawyers speak, they are advocates by mveloso · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Tim Porter may be a nice guy and all, but if it was Google with all those so-called bogus/lax patents he'd be up there talking about how the patent system is fine and the problem really is more that the enforcement process depends on endless litigation and how the determination of infringement needs to be more streamlined.

    He's a lawyer, his job is to be an advocate/mouthpiece for his employer's interests.

    1. Re:When lawyers speak, they are advocates by williamhb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Tim Porter may be a nice guy and all, but if it was Google with all those so-called bogus/lax patents he'd be up there talking about how the patent system is fine and the problem really is more that the enforcement process depends on endless litigation and how the determination of infringement needs to be more streamlined.

      He's a lawyer, his job is to be an advocate/mouthpiece for his employer's interests.

      They (and most companies) play both sides of the fence. At the same time as saying how bad patents are for impinging on their products, they are buying as many companies with far-reaching patents as they can get their hands on -- "Our acquisition of Motorola will increase competition by strengthening Google’s patent portfolio", Larry Page. It's a genuine tragedy of the commons -- many of the same people who think patents are bad news are also having to go out and register or acquire them at ever increasing rates so they are armed with them. And the first person to lay down their patents and walk away would be the big loser (as Android nearly found out with its previous strategy of not having many patents, and wound up on the wrong end of so many patent lawsuits).

    2. Re:When lawyers speak, they are advocates by kermidge · · Score: 4, Insightful

      True enough, but just because he's "got a dog in this race" doesn't preclude him from having a useful view, no?

    3. Re:When lawyers speak, they are advocates by Riceballsan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Agreed, but you also have to look at one thing. Google is not the company with tons of bogus lax patents, and from my observations that seems to be more or less by choice. Does it seem imposible that a company google's size with google's legal budget, that they could not have say squeezed through enough pattents to keep microsoft in court for years trying to fight to get bing across. Or say patented their circles following feeds etc... in a way that facebook would have had to wait a few months for a court to invalidate patents before facebook could match every feature of G+. I agree a lawyer speaks in the interest of the client, but I do have to point out, the client specifically chose not to be a patent troll. If someone asks for harsher sentances for serial killers, is your first response "Yeah but if he were a serial killer he'd probably think differently"

    4. Re:When lawyers speak, they are advocates by swillden · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Tim Porter may be a nice guy and all, but if it was Google with all those so-called bogus/lax patents he'd be up there talking about how the patent system is fine and the problem really is more that the enforcement process depends on endless litigation and how the determination of infringement needs to be more streamlined.

      He's a lawyer, his job is to be an advocate/mouthpiece for his employer's interests.

      They (and most companies) play both sides of the fence. At the same time as saying how bad patents are for impinging on their products, they are buying as many companies with far-reaching patents as they can get their hands on -- "Our acquisition of Motorola will increase competition by strengthening Google’s patent portfolio", Larry Page.

      You omitted the last half of that quote: "which will enable us to better protect Android from anti-competitive threats from Microsoft, Apple and other companies." What he was saying was that Google's new patents will increase competition by helping to prevent MS and Apple from shutting Android down, and I think his point is indisputable: Allowing MS and Apple to kill Android would reduce competition, so preserving android increases competition.

      I truly don't think Google plays both sides of this fence; everything I've ever seen from Google's leadership decries the patent mess as a problem, and explains Google's own focus on acquiring and growing patents as a necessary evil. AFAIK (and I have paid attention), Google has never asserted any patents against anyone, except defensively.

      I think Google really would prefer to change patent law and get rid of all these crap software patents -- or even all software patents, period. I think this is as much reflection of Google's arrogance as Google's altruism -- Google believes that given a level field they can beat the competition in any area they focus on. But I think there is actually a large dose of "good for society" thinking as well. You have to remember that fully half of Google's employees and nearly all of Google's management are software engineers, and the vast majority of software engineers think that software patents are bad for innovation, and software engineers love cool new technology. Google's engineers are no different all the way up to and including Sergey and Larry.

      (Disclaimer: I'm a Google engineer, but all of the above is based on public information plus my perception of general attitudes within the company.)

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  4. It's not just software... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 5, Insightful

    software patents are written by lawyers in a language that software engineers don't even understand.

    That's been true across many industries, at least since the 1970s (which is as far back as I ever researched prior art...)

    The real indicator of what's broken in the patent system can be read in the patent numbers themselves... in 1992 we were at 5 million and something, since the start of the United States Patent Office, now we're roughly double that number?!

    Sorry, everything useful hasn't already been invented, but something is just out of synch. I think an ex-CEO of mine (ex high school football quarterback too) summed up the problem in his own words: "Our competitors were granted 62 patents last year, while we got three, can anybody tell me what that means?" I'm told there was stunned silence in the boardroom. "It means that WE'RE 59 BEHIND, now let's get going!" Patents have been turned into fuel for lawsuits, and they're reaching a scale where even a crappy little $100M/year company can hire a small army of patent attorneys to stock their powder magazine.

    1. Re:It's not just software... by backslashdot · · Score: 5, Informative

      The best example of overbroad patenting is the fact that Apple got a patent for Mag-safe (the breakaway connector on their laptops). Magnetic breakaways had been invented in the 90s and were used on deep fryers. They took the existing work and added the words "computer or electronic device". And guess what now they have a 20year monopoly on magnetic connectors for laptops.

  5. Re:Isn't it ironic? by JoeMerchant · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think patents make a lot of sense, for some things and not for others.

    On balance, there are a lot of really bad software patents, simply because you can sit down with any one of a hundred people "skilled in the art" of whatever area of software and ask them "is this obvious?" and they will almost always say yes, though when you ask "why hasn't it been done before?" the answer comes back a little more murky, usually something about it just not having made sense before because of the user base or available hardware or whatever, and during the period of 1995-2005, the patent office seemed to be in rubber stamp mode for software.

    If you go back to something like barbed wire, there were probably a half-dozen wire manufacturers crying "oh, that was so obvious, we were about to do that" when the patents issued, but today with software, you literally have millions of individuals who are capable of implementing these things that are getting patented - it's a different scale, and the standard for obviousness and prior art should be equally higher.

  6. First to file does not abolish novelty by tepples · · Score: 5, Informative

    First to file affects only conflicts between one patent application and another patent application. It does not affect the novelty requirement, which is patent application vs. prior art.

  7. Re:Preaching to the choir? by jhoegl · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That thought did run through my mind, but I really do not care. I hate software patents because they screw over the "small business" everyone seems to be so worried about.

    Lets just say I write some code, this code turns out to be a part of a piece of software for a small company. The small company releases it and 5 years later are sued because the code infringes on a patent that no one knew about.

    The funny thing is, the code was simple enough that I could have written it a different way avoiding this issue. But because the small business didnt have lawyers out the butt to find this out.

    The question I wonder is, did the company reverse engineer the software to find out? Isnt that illegal as well? Why were they doing that?

  8. Re:Preaching to the choir? by RazorSharp · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Ah, the old Clockwork Orange argument: an action isn't good without good intent.

    When it comes to the patent wars, I think those on the losing end of things are bound to be the ones to petition for reform. We might as well support them, regardless of what drives them to this position.

    --
    "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
  9. Re:I'm glad to see concern by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Microsoft makes big money using its patent portfolio for lawsuits and FUD surrounding Linux and Android so it has no incentive to push for reform that makes those patents easier to challenge, harder to get or harder to sue with.

    You forget that Microsoft also pays licensing fees to other companies for the use of their patents in its products (IIRC, one of them is Oracle's patent on JIT compilation that they've used against Google). You need to look at the balance of those fees to see whether it is profitable for the company. Then also account processing fees on company's own patents - building up a portfolio of your own is not free, and it is necessary to be able to retaliate. Indeed, the latter is the biggest reason why no-one's really happy about it - it's not just about being patent trolled, it's also about all the time and money wasted to keep on par with everyone else in the patent MAD game.

    To the best of my knowledge, pretty much no tech companies that actually produce something are in favor of software patents as they stand. Most would prefer some reasonable middle ground (i.e. keep patents, but significantly raise the bar of what's patentable), but I think that many of them would ultimately prefer no patents to the current situation if those were the only two choices.

  10. Re:I'm glad to see concern by anubi · · Score: 5, Interesting

    < sarconal >

    Somehow, when I read of all this patent fury, I think of the kids who got to the playground first and "put dibs" on all the playground toys. They could extort other kid's lunch money to play. The kids who got there first liked this arrangement and bribed the teacher to let them do this, and the teacher would enforce their "rights".

    Problem is some of the other kids started building more stuff that wasn't under control of the kids who had the "rights" to the existing stuff. But how to you claim rights to keep other kids from doing it?

    Simple! Laws already exist for Property. Call it Property!

    Now, we have property tax, but we want to make sure that this new property can be claimed, yet we shouldn't be taxed on it because ... uh... why?

    With today's sore need of government revenues, why isn't this taxed? I own a house. I pay over 2% of the market value of my house every year for tax.

    Wouldn't this stop the patent trolls dead in their tracks if each patent was taxed on the value its owner assigns to it? In the event of an IP "violation", a property owner can sue up to the value he placed on his IP, at which case,upon paying the IP holder his valuation, the sue-ee ends up holding the so-called property and he is free to value it at whatever he thinks its worth.

    We love to privatize the gains and socialize the losses.

    Stuff like this will get the people benefiting from our method of protecting monopolies to help pay for the people deprived from building things. Think of it as one of the costs of living in a society where armed police will enforce highly profitable monopolies and keep competition at bay. The American Way. Just as pioneered by Al Capone.

    The American Way will work as long as we control the world's reserve currency, and can depend on the fruit of our printing press to exchange for our needs.

    < /sarconal >

    --
    "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]