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Senate Set To Vote On the Repeal of Net Neutrality
An anonymous reader writes "The United States Senate will vote sometime today on the bill that would repeal the net neutrality laws that the FCC has put into place. The bill passed the US House back in April, so it only has to be approved by the Senate before it is sent to the President's desk. President Obama says that he will veto the bill. The debate over net neutrality has largely been split on party lines, with the Democratic party mostly being for keeping net neutrality laws in place, and the GOP looking to avoid them."
If your ISP isn't neutral, just switch to one of the many, many other ISPs that services your area; surely one of them will have policies you agree with. And if you only have one ISP, all you need to do is start another one. It's easy! Trust in the dread god Freem'Arkhet to handle everything!
The debate over net neutrality has largely been split on party lines, with the Democratic party mostly being for keeping net neutrality laws in place, and the GOP looking to avoid them.
They aren't laws right now, they're regulations. In a conflict between laws and regulations, laws win.
I am officially gone from
The problem isn't equal treatment of all traffic. Nobody would complain about FTP traffic being slowed during busy bursts to avoid interfering with voice traffic. It is the stated aim of some ISPs to throttle back certain sites unless you pay a premium. So Microsoft could agree to pay certain ISPs to advertise bing while at the same time making google very slow and barely usable. They could also undermine free sites by charging the provider to allow customers reasonable access, meaning that they have a charge to pass on somewhere. The end result will be the end of the free to access internet.
This really grinds my gears.
I'll start my own damn internet... with hookers and booze!
Some despite the fact that private companies have pretty much destroyed our economy you are ok with them controlling the internet, too?
I know, right? That's why food contamination actually got worse after we passed the Pure Food And Drug Act.
Wait, did I say "worse"? Sorry, I meant "better".
You're taking "government will always handle everything worse than any private company" as an article of faith not backed by evidence. Sorry, I'm not religious in that particular manner.
In general I'm against the government adding senseless regulations, but in THIS case the regulation IS necessary. It's actually a requirement that all traffic be treated equal. How would you like it if the post office told you that from now on unless you put two extra stamps on each of your letters they would add a week to the delivery time of your first class mail?
To paraphrase, with network neutrality content providers win. Without NN, service providers win. Both win at the consumer's expense, but it's a lot easier to find alternate content than alternate infrastructure. The demise of NAT should make it easier for all of us to be content providers; I'm looking forward to it.
I admit to not being able to follow your example. I myself cannot come up with a clear example of how equal access to networks (or other infrastructure) could be a bad thing. I suspect you may have a different definition of network neutrality than the rest of us; I believe the most commonly accepted phrasing would be "traffic should not be prioritized based on endpoints."
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
I have two choices for ISP: ATT and Comcast.
Wasn't AT&T one of the ISPs that decided to cooperate with the NSA on traffic monitoring? That would make it a good, politically correct, provider for GOP supporters.
I'll take net neutrality laws as they have been written any day over letting the ISPs just do as they please. After all, the broadband ones are all old entrenched telecom and media companies that already do discriminate between content. At the very least they pretty much all throttle P2P which contrary to some people's opinions can and is used for plenty of good, non-pirate things.
On the other hand... why can't we have laws which distinguish between a provider's LAN services and the internet? When TV service comes through the modem on what is essentially a big LAN, usually a 10.x.x.x network and the internet comes through as a tunnel on that LAN then I think net neutrality laws should be applied to what comes through the tunnel, not the whole LAN connection. The LAN belongs to the ISP, the Internet does not.
In other words, when I connect to the internet I expect to be able to reach Google, Bing or some other competitior, NetFlix, some big corporate website or somebody's personal page all equally (as far as my ISPs connection is concerned, obviously they will each have different providers and capacity). If however the ISP has some kind of assurance in place that the other services on their LAN aren't being 'squeezed out' by the Internet tunnel that is fine with me.
Then again, with an ever faster Internet traditional TV and phone services become pretty obsolete. Using that whole LAN for Internet access and plugging my computer into my TV sounds just fine to me and I haven't had use for a landline in years.
Troll.
In most areas you have two regulated monopolies providing internet services. You might be lucky and have a third small player that is entirely beholden two one of the two big monopolies (thrid party DSL). Technically you have your cellular carrier as an option, but that will be expensive and limited.
So Yeah, you can go with the telephone company or the cable company. Lots of choice there, and both are and should be heavily regulated.
I sure don't want my cable company to have the option to limit or block Netflix and Hulu, or my phone company to limit or block Skype and Vonage and Google Talk.
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
Oh right, because private companies would do such a good job to ensure net neutrality. I mean, who's supposed to ensure that content gatekeepers don't create tiered services? ISPs? Uh huh...
Sometimes you just need to admit that government regulations are necessary. No FDA? You can go back to the days before Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" and Frances Oldham Kelsey. How about the EPA? Not sure why people oppose the Clean Air Act and Clean Water Act. And if the US government were a company, you might have been bankrupt long ago.
Yes, the solution is simply to switch ISPs- oh, wait, most people in the US have only two broadband providers available at most, and they both have abhorrent neutrality practices.
I can't start my own ISP because the barrier to entry is impossibly high and the current ISPs have state or city-granted monopolies on internet/phone/cable service.
Free market theory doesn't work when the market isn't free.
End of lesson. You may press the button.
And if you only have one ISP, all you need to do is start another one. It's easy! Trust in the dread god Freem'Arkhet to handle everything!
This would be insightful if many local governments weren't granting monopolies for cable/Internet service. Back when ISPs were modem based, there were start ups all over the place, and they were driving costs down while providing better service than the likes of AOL.
Net neutrality is about far, far more than some ISP's profits.
The death of net neutrality is the death of the last independent voice in U.S. politics. You doubt this? Remember the deafening shouts of "WMDs in Iraq !!!" from practically all the mainstream media channels. Where were the dissenting voices? Basically, only on the Internet.
If net neutrality dies, then companies like Comcast and AT&T will have the power to silence web sites they dislike. Since these are giant corporations, their agendas will of course align with those of the mainstream media, and all the protest sites will die. The U.S. media will have largely one voice, the voice of the one-percenters, and dissent will be silenced.
This outcome is undoubtedly the main intent of the one-percenters, especially in these days of the Occupy movement. The powers that be desperately need to kill net neutrality for the same reason that Mubarak tried to turn off the Internet during the occupation of Tahrir Square by the riff-raff. Our rulers know that good communication is essential to any successful revolution, and they are determined to cut off all possible channels of dissent.
Now perhaps you are one of the 1%, or work for them. Perhaps you like having a media landscape that rivals China's in its depth of censorship. But I don't.
Back when google was cool and actually believed in "do no evil", it supported net neutrality the way most people understand it.
Ask the common geek, I would assume many of them would agree the following should be defined as Net Neutrality:
* Treat all data equally, regardless of source. (e.g. data from Bob's Video Shack would be treated the same as Netflix)
* Do not block services (e.g. BitTorrent should not be blocked)
* Do not block web sites (e.g. Comcast/NBC should not block access to ABC/CBS/etc)
* and probably a few I'm forgetting.
If an ISP wants to charge more for bandwidth, that's understandable. It's a limited resource.
But I shouldn't have to pay more to visit netflix just because 75% of the traffic goes there. I already paid for the bandwidth!
The problem I see is that corporations who control content and access are trying to define "Net Neutrality", when really they are defining a set of policies to make them more money. Maybe before putting together regulations and laws, IETF can get together a RFC of what Net Neutrality should be.
We don't live in Shouldland.
Governments work by force "Do this or else". Corporations work by persuasaion "if you Do this for us, we will do something else for you". There is a major difference in kind there, even if the "something else" is the only realistic choice you have to live. People who think corporations can rule or enslave people without the explicit efforts of government haven't actually been paying attention. American slavery would NOT have existed without the government decreeing that you can have a property right over people.
"Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny! Free men pull in all sorts of directions" -- Havelock Vetinari
Have you ever dealt with a carrier who uses ATT lines? It sucks. Any line problem - and there are many - will get fixed when ATT thinks it will help THEM. Which means basically never. Cost is entirely dependent on what ATT thinks it should charge resellers - in other words, it is guaranteed to be more expensive than the ATT offering, even if the service is exactly the same.
The only thing you can hope for is that the reseller is actually good, and you get something extra for paying substantially more for the same bandwidth. I use Speakeasy, and at least I get outstanding service.
But you're kidding yourself if you think that Speakeasy is actually in competition with ATT. Speakeasy exists at the mercy of ATT, and will be killed off in many ways if it ever becomes a threat to ATT's residential service. Which it kinda has, because you actually can't get residential-class DSL from Speakeasy anymore: I'm only around because they haven't canceled my contract yet. But my terms don't exist anymore, and the terms that are available are fundamentally different.
So from a technical offering, I don't have a choice - it's ATT only. From a service choice, I could get Sonic, but they're significantly more expensive. And that's it. Not even Comcast is offering anything in my area. Beats me why, but they don't.
So go suck on your choice, because it doesn't exist for a lot of people. And the choices that do exist are far too small to create anything resembling market pressures.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
But that's what i wonder : why is there no competition ? You would think that, if a company screws it's customers for long enough, someone would see a the market opportunity to do things differently. Why is this not the case ?
Clearly no one explained natural monopolies to you. Here's how it goes: in certain markets, barriers to entry are so high that one of two things happen. One, people just don't bother entering it. Two, if they do enter it, the start-up costs are so high that they pretty much have to take out loans to enter it, which adds significantly to the initial running cost. During that time, the incumbent simply drops prices to their operating cost - or lower, depending on their cash reserves - waits until the competitor runs out of cash due to their inability to attract enough new customers, and then gobbles up the competitor for pennies on the dollar.
Which is exactly what is happening in the telcom industry. Even Google can't do a nationwide roll-out without bankrupting itself. ATT and Comcast, on the other hand, are operating on pure profit by now. So there's no incentive for anyone to enter the market, because the chances of even surviving long enough to make a profit are slim to none. The only reason Google is even marginally in it is because they understand the existential threat that the telecoms pose to it. Google only exists for as long as the telecoms, for whatever reason, cannot discriminate between their service and Google's service. As soon as they can, it's game over for Google.
Now it comes down to surrendering your Internet connection to either a large corporation ( no net neutrality ) , or to the government ( net neutrality ).
You really ought to not take your talking points from organizations that are actively lying to you. Net Neutrality explicitly means that no one, not even the government, has control over what services you can and cannot access through your Internet connection. The government regulating ISPs is not the same as the government telling you what you can do with your connection. It can be, but it doesn't have to be.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
it's a lot easier to find alternate content than alternate infrastructure
Not when Big Content sues those who make this alternate content, claiming unauthorized derivative works.
Not that far fetched. In Canada some years ago during a strike Telus (second largest telco in Canada) blocked the employee’s union's website. Telcos can never be trusted not to censor things they don't like.
I'm sure that your arguments make perfect sense within some definition of network neutrality. If you could, please reply to this stating what you think network neutrality means because I would like to know how you came to your conclusions. Unfortunately, the term keeps getting hijacked by companies with a political agenda. Network neutrality is supposed to mean that ISPs cannot modify or shape internet traffic. And based on that simple rule, your conclusions are not correct. Let me explain:
Pro NN: Netflix and Google Win.
Anti NN: AT&T and Comcast Win.
No one "wins" if NN is repealed. Currently, we have NN and everyone is doing just fine. If we lose NN, AT&T and Comcast can cheat by blocking a site then charging an extra fees to get it back. This is how they plan to make money off of it, without having to upgrade their infrastructure. I think calling that "winning" is a bad idea, since nothing good comes out of it.
Pro NN: The End User will end up paying more for service.
Anti NN: The End User will not have fair access to other services
This is really the same issue as the first point. If we retain NN, the end user pays exactly what they are paying now. If NN is repealed, it means that ISPs can provide unfair access, then charge a special fee to get fair access back. It means the end user pays more to get the same thing. Or they just get unfair access.
Pro NN: You cannot offer a service with a connection that included internet as a secondary option... I am breaking NN laws because I am offering my service faster to customers and internet access as a secondary service is slower.
Network Neutrality does not state that you cannot offer a service faster to customers and internet access as a slower service. *All* networks are this way. The internet network is always faster than the external network.
Anti NN: ISP can decide who they want to slow down or block just because they are in competition with them. So lets block Vonage or Skype because it Interfears with their Telephone business. Or netflix or hulu.
This a the big ticket, but you only hit the smallest piece of it. Some other examples: ISPs could change advertisements on pages. Imagine a mom and pop advertises their local toy shop, but WalMart pays an ISP to remove those ads and replace them with ads for WalMart. Or an ISP alters pages that are critical critical about the ISP. Or perhaps they redirect websites that are critical of their political agenda to sites that are in favor of their view. Or even if they don't go this far, they could slow down sites that they don't like.
Based on your statements, I think that you believe Network Neutrality places rules on how fast internet is, and how much ISPs can charge for it. I've heard that version of it a lot on various anti-network-neutrality sites. I can assure that that it does not mean that, except to those lobbyists who are trying to redefine the term to make it sound bad. The politicians have made it look like a debate between two approaches, when it isn't a debate, it is simply hijacking a common sense rule.
You could also say that "despite the fact that the government has pretty much destroyed our economy, you are okay with them controlling the Internet, too?"
When most of the damage that the government did was through removing regulations... yes. Especially since we're not talking about the government controlling the Internet, we're talking about the government imposing limits on how much private enterprises can control it.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Nope, can't do it. I tried, I failed.
I was looking a while back at the National Broadband Map, and it indicated that I had choices in my area. I currently have Comcast, but DSL is available. My big beef is over the Terms Of Service, and all that is implied there. According to the National Broadband Map there was service from a local CLEC available to me. I looked at their website, and not only were their TOS fine, they actually provide support services to people who want their own domains, servers, etc.
Enter the fiber loophole...
I emailed them, inquiring about availability of their service. I received a negative response. My response was asking if this was a matter of waiting for DSLAM availability, or if there was some more fundamental problem.
Their response was that my service, somewhere on the way to my house, went through some fiber. That mere fact meant that the ILEC no longer has to be an ILEC and provide for CLECs. They have a legal monopoly on any potential ISP service to me.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
And giving corporations more power is definitely a conservative concept. Which is the lesser evil?
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
Republicans are evil. Unfortunately the democrats are just plain incompetent. Sigh!
Of the two alternatives in your false dichotomy, giving corporations more power is certainly the lesser evil.
Why? Because Google, Apple, Microsoft, and Oracle don't have legal authority to kick in your doors and imprison you, or execute you if you don't like their policies and refuse to do business with them. Try arguing that line of reasoning ("I don't like your policies, and so I don't do business with you!") next time you're tossed in jail for having a joint on you during a traffic stop. The government most certainly does have the authority to kick in your doors and imprison you, and you're very unlikely to win your case on due process grounds.
Of course, this *is* a false dichotomy; one can be conservative without favoring giving more power to corporations. One can also be liberal without favoring giving more power to the government. Let's not conflate the terms "liberal" and "conservative" with "Democrat" and "Republican," because they're not the same.
You're seriously citing a Free Republic post and an American Spectator article called "EPA Jackboots" as sources? Rush Limbaugh is more reliable.
Oh, and that lovely conservative lie about Mr. Pozsgai is bunk. Here's the truth of what happened.
Mr. Pozsgai wanted to build a 12000 sq ft garage on some land near his business. He hired an engineer to survey the site. That engineer warned him that the site met the government's definition of wetlands, and he would need a permit before filling the land. He hired another engineer for a second opinion, and then a third. Each told him the same thing. Note that he had not yet bought the land. He could have just accepted the law at this point, and only been out the cost of the surveys.
Instead he purchased the site, negotiating a 20% discount because he wouldn't be able to build there. He then immediately began an illegal filling operation. The Army Corps of Engineers came out and warned him to stop, in writing and in person. He claimed that the site was already like that, and he had been fixing it. However, the Corps came out again the next month, and found even more landfill than before. They warned him to stop it, and gave him a cease and desist letter. They came out again the next month, and the month after that, each time finding more landfill and each time telling Mr. Pozsgai to cut it out. This went on for over a year, from April of 1987 to May of 1988.
In May of '88, witnesses living next door reported hundreds of dump trucks showing up to pour more landfill into the wetlands. The Army Corps of Engineers installed a video camera and captured footage of another 25 such dump trucks pooring landfill into the site, completely demolishing Mr. Pozsgai's claim that he was trying to clean up existing dumping. He was brought to trial, where he did not even bother to deny the dumping anymore. Instead, he claimed that since the phrase "wetlands" isn't explicitly mentioned in the Clean Water Act, wetlands must not count as water! This defense was understandably rejected, and he was sentenced to 3 years in a minimum security prison.
You overlooked point three about monopolies, and in my mind, the one that's most relevant to net neutrality: Cable & telephone providers are not "natural" monopolies - they are government-sanctioned monopolies given sole authority to provide service to an area by local government. These are the companies we are also relying on to provide us with internet service today.
Unfortunately, the government has screwed us into a scenario of limited choice; it now falls to the government to tell the companies they're forcing us to do business with that those companies may not throttle or limit our access to a service we are paying for. Imagine if your electric company said "Well, we're only going to let you draw enough current to operate a hair dryer because you run your dishwasher during peak hours."
Your argument seems to be based on the fact that the government is a static thing, its not, its a representative of the people elected by the people. Corporations are not representatives of the people and do not have the interests of the people in their interests. It doesn't often times conflict with their modus operandi to conflict with the people but their interests lie with their stock holders and we have seen time and time again that they will do very bad things in the name of making profit. The idea that "the market" will decide to buy their products or not is also a fallacy, with the size of corporations and the power they hold they often times leave consumers no choice.
In the United States especially, corporations are seen more and more as an individual and that is a very scary prospect. Private organisations should NEVER hold more power than the representatives of the people and anyone who thinks the other way around hasn't fully thought through what they are proposing
There is no -1 disagree
A *liberal* concept? Hast thou forgotten which President *created* the TSA and the DHS?
Citation please.
Just one contemporary example.
The false dichotomy comes from the fact that corporations currently run government. Every single law passed by the Federal legislature and every state legislature is written by lobbyists. Just look at Europe and the US to see that every government is putting the banks, which are all corporations, ahead of their people or their own sovereignty. When we hear about how the EU is going to "bail out Greece" what that means is that they're going to bail out the banks to whom Greece owes money. When they talk about "bailing out Italy" they're talking about bailing out the banks to whom Italy owes money. The reason these banks need to be bailed out? Because they played with the previous money governments gave them and blew it all at the roulette table. When you hear about the "TARP bailouts", it was bank holding corporations that got bailed out, and not just bailed out, but made whole to the tune of 100 cents on the dollar. It was unthinkable that a banker might have to take 90 cents on the dollar for the money they lost playing roulette.
No, because of three decades of increasing corporate power, there is not a government on earth that has as much power as that which is concentrated in the hands of transnational corporations.
And no, guns don't represent power when the people holding the guns are wholly owned and take their orders from corporations.
In theory, there is no false dichotomy between "government" and "corporations". Government is the only institution that can possibly be a counterbalance, a check, on the power of corporations, and now it's too late. The Supreme Court of the US basically said, "Corporations are super-citizens". Instead of being 3/5 of a citizen, a corporations is 500million/1 of a citizen And corporations are golems, virtual machines which share no properties with human beings, simply capital aggregated. What's good for them has nothing to do with what's good for human beings.
You are welcome on my lawn.