Senate Set To Vote On the Repeal of Net Neutrality

An anonymous reader writes "The United States Senate will vote sometime today on the bill that would repeal the net neutrality laws that the FCC has put into place. The bill passed the US House back in April, so it only has to be approved by the Senate before it is sent to the President's desk. President Obama says that he will veto the bill. The debate over net neutrality has largely been split on party lines, with the Democratic party mostly being for keeping net neutrality laws in place, and the GOP looking to avoid them."

Comments

Another Kink

[masternerdguy]

Another kink in the armor of American freedom.

Re:Another Kink

[Anonymous Coward]

If your ISP isn't neutral, just switch to one of the many, many other ISPs that services your area; surely one of them will have policies you agree with. And if you only have one ISP, all you need to do is start another one. It's easy! Trust in the dread god Freem'Arkhet to handle everything!

Re:Another Kink

[masternerdguy]

I have two choices for ISP: ATT and Comcast.

Re:Another Kink

[jellomizer]

Which way? For or against Net Neutrality?

Pro NN: Netflix and Google Win.
Anti NN: AT&T and Comcast Win.
Pro NN: The End User will end up paying more for service.
Anti NN: The End User will not have fare access to other services
Pro NN: You cannot offer a service with a connection that included internet as a secondary option... Lets say I am a Small provider and I am offering TCP/IP Streaming of services to customers using my infrastructure, my Infrastructure allows up to 1000mbs transfer and my internal network can handle it. But my Internet connection to the outside is more limited say peaking at 10mbs per customer (we need to keep the users balanced) Now I am breaking NN laws because I am offering my service faster to customers and internet access as a secondary service is slower.
Anti NN: ISP can decide who they want to slow down or block just because they are in competition with them. So lets block Vonage or Skype because it Interfears with their Telephone business. Or netflix or hulu.

Now without Net Neutrality a lot of companies wouldn't go too far to block too much just because it will piss off the customers and they switch. Only Comcast hates it customers so much to do this. For other companies they may be doing this for good reasons such as blocking or slowing down traffic to some sites that isn't evil or greedy.

Re:Another Kink

[Tenebrousedge]

To paraphrase, with network neutrality content providers win. Without NN, service providers win. Both win at the consumer's expense, but it's a lot easier to find alternate content than alternate infrastructure. The demise of NAT should make it easier for all of us to be content providers; I'm looking forward to it.

I admit to not being able to follow your example. I myself cannot come up with a clear example of how equal access to networks (or other infrastructure) could be a bad thing. I suspect you may have a different definition of network neutrality than the rest of us; I believe the most commonly accepted phrasing would be "traffic should not be prioritized based on endpoints."

Re:Another Kink

[Anonymous Coward]

I have two choices for ISP: ATT and Comcast.

Wasn't AT&T one of the ISPs that decided to cooperate with the NSA on traffic monitoring? That would make it a good, politically correct, provider for GOP supporters.

Re:Another Kink

[swv3752]

Troll.

In most areas you have two regulated monopolies providing internet services. You might be lucky and have a third small player that is entirely beholden two one of the two big monopolies (thrid party DSL). Technically you have your cellular carrier as an option, but that will be expensive and limited.

So Yeah, you can go with the telephone company or the cable company. Lots of choice there, and both are and should be heavily regulated.

I sure don't want my cable company to have the option to limit or block Netflix and Hulu, or my phone company to limit or block Skype and Vonage and Google Talk.

Re:Another Kink

[telekon]

At the duty-free shop on your way out of the country. Unfortunately, it's not available to U.S. citizens.

Re:Another Kink

[Culture20]

And if you only have one ISP, all you need to do is start another one. It's easy! Trust in the dread god Freem'Arkhet to handle everything!

This would be insightful if many local governments weren't granting monopolies for cable/Internet service. Back when ISPs were modem based, there were start ups all over the place, and they were driving costs down while providing better service than the likes of AOL.

Re:Another Kink

[Olorion]

Net neutrality is about far, far more than some ISP's profits.

The death of net neutrality is the death of the last independent voice in U.S. politics. You doubt this? Remember the deafening shouts of "WMDs in Iraq !!!" from practically all the mainstream media channels. Where were the dissenting voices? Basically, only on the Internet.

If net neutrality dies, then companies like Comcast and AT&T will have the power to silence web sites they dislike. Since these are giant corporations, their agendas will of course align with those of the mainstream media, and all the protest sites will die. The U.S. media will have largely one voice, the voice of the one-percenters, and dissent will be silenced.

This outcome is undoubtedly the main intent of the one-percenters, especially in these days of the Occupy movement. The powers that be desperately need to kill net neutrality for the same reason that Mubarak tried to turn off the Internet during the occupation of Tahrir Square by the riff-raff. Our rulers know that good communication is essential to any successful revolution, and they are determined to cut off all possible channels of dissent.

Now perhaps you are one of the 1%, or work for them. Perhaps you like having a media landscape that rivals China's in its depth of censorship. But I don't.

Re:Another Kink

[kdemetter]

No, he seems to have a good grasp of what net neutrality stands for.

Net neutrality has advantages to the customer, but it also has disadvantages for service providers.

However, the point that companies won't go so far as to piss off customers, only works if there is a viable competition. If there isn't, then they will not think twice to screw over customers if it improves their profits.

But that's what i wonder : why is there no competition ? You would think that, if a company screws it's customers for long enough, someone would see a the market opportunity to do things differently. Why is this not the case ?

Now it comes down to surrendering your Internet connection to either a large corporation ( no net neutrality ) , or to the government ( net neutrality ).

Re:Another Kink

[need4mospd]

I dream of the day I'll actually have a second choice.

Re:Another Kink

[morari]

It's really not. Selling out areas to cable and telecoms hurts your population in the long run, as evidenced. Not having decent internet nowadays is more socially and economically crippling than not having telephone service. The government itself should be laying that cable for anyone to use. Cthulhu knows the cable/telecoms aren't doing it, despite having tons of subsidies literally thrown at them for decades. Infrastructure in general would be a great use of tax dollars. A lot better than any number of unwinnable, unethical wars for example. Then once you have this open platform for ISPs to work off of, private competition would [i]most[/i] likely take care of everything else. It seems to work throughout Europe, and it even worked here in the States for dial-up prices and service.

Re:Another Kink

[mcgrew]

Me too, but I think the GP was being sarcastic, especially with his nod to the Great American God Freem'Arkhet (described in the anti-Freem'Arkhet bible as "mammon").

The +5 funny might have tipped you off, as well.

Odd how the "free market" US has one or maybe two ISPs in any given town, while the "socialist" EU cities have multiple choices. But try to convince the T(ard) Party that maybe there are a few problems with their little green god and see how successful you are at it.

We're screwed, dude.

Re:Another Kink

[NeutronCowboy]

Have you ever dealt with a carrier who uses ATT lines? It sucks. Any line problem - and there are many - will get fixed when ATT thinks it will help THEM. Which means basically never. Cost is entirely dependent on what ATT thinks it should charge resellers - in other words, it is guaranteed to be more expensive than the ATT offering, even if the service is exactly the same.

The only thing you can hope for is that the reseller is actually good, and you get something extra for paying substantially more for the same bandwidth. I use Speakeasy, and at least I get outstanding service.

But you're kidding yourself if you think that Speakeasy is actually in competition with ATT. Speakeasy exists at the mercy of ATT, and will be killed off in many ways if it ever becomes a threat to ATT's residential service. Which it kinda has, because you actually can't get residential-class DSL from Speakeasy anymore: I'm only around because they haven't canceled my contract yet. But my terms don't exist anymore, and the terms that are available are fundamentally different.

So from a technical offering, I don't have a choice - it's ATT only. From a service choice, I could get Sonic, but they're significantly more expensive. And that's it. Not even Comcast is offering anything in my area. Beats me why, but they don't.

So go suck on your choice, because it doesn't exist for a lot of people. And the choices that do exist are far too small to create anything resembling market pressures.

Re:Another Kink

[mcgrew]

• Pro NN: Netflix and Google and YOU Win.
• Anti NN: AT&T and Comcast Win. You lose.
• Pro NN: The End User will end up paying more for service? Prove it; I simply don't believe it. They're not fighting against giving you extra for what you pay now, they're for giving you less for what you pay now. The statement "Pro NN: The End User will end up paying more" is utter bullshit.
• Anti NN: The End User will not have fare [did you mean "fair?"] access to other services? Why not? That makes no sense whatever; and in fact is the opposite of reality.
• Pro NN: You cannot offer a service with a connection that included internet as a secondary option? Bullshit. It doesn't say you can't offer tiered speeds at different prices, it says you can't throttle Google (or cut it off completely) and let Bing stream full speed. It doesn't say Comcast can't offer both internet and cable, and it doesn't say AT&T can't offer two speeds at two prices.

Now without Net Neutrality a lot of companies wouldn't go too far to block too much just because it will piss off the customers and they switch.

To whom? Without NN I'd have the choice of AT&T without Skype, or Comcast without Hulu. Both choices are completely unaceptable. NN favors the end user, non-NN only favors ISPs.

Re:Another Kink

[NeutronCowboy]

But that's what i wonder : why is there no competition ? You would think that, if a company screws it's customers for long enough, someone would see a the market opportunity to do things differently. Why is this not the case ?

Clearly no one explained natural monopolies to you. Here's how it goes: in certain markets, barriers to entry are so high that one of two things happen. One, people just don't bother entering it. Two, if they do enter it, the start-up costs are so high that they pretty much have to take out loans to enter it, which adds significantly to the initial running cost. During that time, the incumbent simply drops prices to their operating cost - or lower, depending on their cash reserves - waits until the competitor runs out of cash due to their inability to attract enough new customers, and then gobbles up the competitor for pennies on the dollar.

Which is exactly what is happening in the telcom industry. Even Google can't do a nationwide roll-out without bankrupting itself. ATT and Comcast, on the other hand, are operating on pure profit by now. So there's no incentive for anyone to enter the market, because the chances of even surviving long enough to make a profit are slim to none. The only reason Google is even marginally in it is because they understand the existential threat that the telecoms pose to it. Google only exists for as long as the telecoms, for whatever reason, cannot discriminate between their service and Google's service. As soon as they can, it's game over for Google.

Now it comes down to surrendering your Internet connection to either a large corporation ( no net neutrality ) , or to the government ( net neutrality ).

You really ought to not take your talking points from organizations that are actively lying to you. Net Neutrality explicitly means that no one, not even the government, has control over what services you can and cannot access through your Internet connection. The government regulating ISPs is not the same as the government telling you what you can do with your connection. It can be, but it doesn't have to be.

Re:Another Kink

[tepples]

it's a lot easier to find alternate content than alternate infrastructure

Not when Big Content sues those who make this alternate content, claiming unauthorized derivative works.

Re:Another Kink

[gmack]

Not that far fetched. In Canada some years ago during a strike Telus (second largest telco in Canada) blocked the employee’s union's website. Telcos can never be trusted not to censor things they don't like.

Re:Another Kink

[MobyDisk]

I'm sure that your arguments make perfect sense within some definition of network neutrality. If you could, please reply to this stating what you think network neutrality means because I would like to know how you came to your conclusions. Unfortunately, the term keeps getting hijacked by companies with a political agenda. Network neutrality is supposed to mean that ISPs cannot modify or shape internet traffic. And based on that simple rule, your conclusions are not correct. Let me explain:

Pro NN: Netflix and Google Win.
Anti NN: AT&T and Comcast Win.

No one "wins" if NN is repealed. Currently, we have NN and everyone is doing just fine. If we lose NN, AT&T and Comcast can cheat by blocking a site then charging an extra fees to get it back. This is how they plan to make money off of it, without having to upgrade their infrastructure. I think calling that "winning" is a bad idea, since nothing good comes out of it.

Pro NN: The End User will end up paying more for service.
Anti NN: The End User will not have fair access to other services

This is really the same issue as the first point. If we retain NN, the end user pays exactly what they are paying now. If NN is repealed, it means that ISPs can provide unfair access, then charge a special fee to get fair access back. It means the end user pays more to get the same thing. Or they just get unfair access.

Pro NN: You cannot offer a service with a connection that included internet as a secondary option... I am breaking NN laws because I am offering my service faster to customers and internet access as a secondary service is slower.

Network Neutrality does not state that you cannot offer a service faster to customers and internet access as a slower service. *All* networks are this way. The internet network is always faster than the external network.

Anti NN: ISP can decide who they want to slow down or block just because they are in competition with them. So lets block Vonage or Skype because it Interfears with their Telephone business. Or netflix or hulu.

This a the big ticket, but you only hit the smallest piece of it. Some other examples: ISPs could change advertisements on pages. Imagine a mom and pop advertises their local toy shop, but WalMart pays an ISP to remove those ads and replace them with ads for WalMart. Or an ISP alters pages that are critical critical about the ISP. Or perhaps they redirect websites that are critical of their political agenda to sites that are in favor of their view. Or even if they don't go this far, they could slow down sites that they don't like.

Based on your statements, I think that you believe Network Neutrality places rules on how fast internet is, and how much ISPs can charge for it. I've heard that version of it a lot on various anti-network-neutrality sites. I can assure that that it does not mean that, except to those lobbyists who are trying to redefine the term to make it sound bad. The politicians have made it look like a debate between two approaches, when it isn't a debate, it is simply hijacking a common sense rule.

Re:Another Kink

[dpilot]

Nope, can't do it. I tried, I failed.

I was looking a while back at the National Broadband Map, and it indicated that I had choices in my area. I currently have Comcast, but DSL is available. My big beef is over the Terms Of Service, and all that is implied there. According to the National Broadband Map there was service from a local CLEC available to me. I looked at their website, and not only were their TOS fine, they actually provide support services to people who want their own domains, servers, etc.

Enter the fiber loophole...

I emailed them, inquiring about availability of their service. I received a negative response. My response was asking if this was a matter of waiting for DSLAM availability, or if there was some more fundamental problem.

Their response was that my service, somewhere on the way to my house, went through some fiber. That mere fact meant that the ILEC no longer has to be an ILEC and provide for CLECs. They have a legal monopoly on any potential ISP service to me.

Re:Another Kink

[SirGarlon]

On the other hand, giving the government more power is definitely a liberal concept.

And giving corporations more power is definitely a conservative concept. Which is the lesser evil?

Re:Another Kink

[MobyDisk]

It would seem far fetched if it hadn't happened already, and if they weren't asking for this ability. When someone asks for a law granting them some power, it is reasonable to assume they will use it. I have been meaning to compile a list of network neutrality violations for a while now, but we have had cases where ISPs have blocked or modified content. They come-up on Slashdot on occasion. We had common carrier laws long before the internet because historically freight carriers and phone companies did stuff like this. So this is not far fetched, it is history, it has happened.

Allowing government to regulate the Internet will do exactly the same thing

This extreme oversimplification has to stop. We aren't "giving the government the ability to regulate the internet" we are "restricting the ability for corporations to interfere with the internet." You are oversimplifying things so far that they actually mean the opposite. If we oversimplified every law to "giving the government the ability to regulate X" then we could argue against every single law. We shouldn't have laws telling companies that it is illegal to sell poisonous foods because that would be giving the government the ability to regulate food, and I don't want the government to tell me what food I can eat! We shouldn't have laws that make trespassing illegal because that would be giving the government the ability to regulate where I can go!

Also note, that we are talking about monopolies here. So the argument against government interference doesn't apply. The government has created this mess by screwing up telecommunications law to the point where no one could switch to a neutral ISP even if they wanted to.

The reality is that ISPs are trying to control the flow of content over the internet for their own profit. We have had network neutrality protections in place since before the internet existed (they were called "Common carrier" laws) because of historical violations of the same type, and they have served us well. We should not allow the protections to be removed under the guise that no one would bother to violate them.

Re:Another Kink

[Americano]

Of the two alternatives in your false dichotomy, giving corporations more power is certainly the lesser evil.

Why? Because Google, Apple, Microsoft, and Oracle don't have legal authority to kick in your doors and imprison you, or execute you if you don't like their policies and refuse to do business with them. Try arguing that line of reasoning ("I don't like your policies, and so I don't do business with you!") next time you're tossed in jail for having a joint on you during a traffic stop. The government most certainly does have the authority to kick in your doors and imprison you, and you're very unlikely to win your case on due process grounds.

Of course, this *is* a false dichotomy; one can be conservative without favoring giving more power to corporations. One can also be liberal without favoring giving more power to the government. Let's not conflate the terms "liberal" and "conservative" with "Democrat" and "Republican," because they're not the same.

Re:Another Kink

[Curunir_wolf]

Yes, the media is entirely compromised, there's no denying that. Why, just looking at all the made-up PR they generated to drum up support for carpet bombing and droning Libya makes it obvious.

But as far as cutting off access to any network, only governments have done that, and there is plenty of it going on. Yet somehow you're willing to go ahead and provide the government with even more control over it. That really seems to defy common sense.

As hard as you try, you cannot ignore the evidence.

Well, you did. Must not be so hard.

Re:Another Kink

[Americano]

Clearly no one explained natural monopolies to you.

You overlooked point three about monopolies, and in my mind, the one that's most relevant to net neutrality: Cable & telephone providers are not "natural" monopolies - they are government-sanctioned monopolies given sole authority to provide service to an area by local government. These are the companies we are also relying on to provide us with internet service today.

Unfortunately, the government has screwed us into a scenario of limited choice; it now falls to the government to tell the companies they're forcing us to do business with that those companies may not throttle or limit our access to a service we are paying for. Imagine if your electric company said "Well, we're only going to let you draw enough current to operate a hair dryer because you run your dishwasher during peak hours."

Re:Another Kink

[c0mpliant]

Your argument seems to be based on the fact that the government is a static thing, its not, its a representative of the people elected by the people. Corporations are not representatives of the people and do not have the interests of the people in their interests. It doesn't often times conflict with their modus operandi to conflict with the people but their interests lie with their stock holders and we have seen time and time again that they will do very bad things in the name of making profit. The idea that "the market" will decide to buy their products or not is also a fallacy, with the size of corporations and the power they hold they often times leave consumers no choice.

In the United States especially, corporations are seen more and more as an individual and that is a very scary prospect. Private organisations should NEVER hold more power than the representatives of the people and anyone who thinks the other way around hasn't fully thought through what they are proposing

Re:Another Kink

[Olorion]

> Yet somehow you're willing to go ahead and provide the government with even more control over [the Internet].

False. To me, net neutrality means nobody controls the Internet, and that is as it should be.

Why are you so anxious to kill net neutrality, giving Comcast and AT&T almost dictatorial powers over what websites their customers can see? If net neutrality dies, the Great Firewall of Comcast will rival the Great Firewall of China.

Re:Another Kink

[Anonymous Coward]

Some conservatives are in favor of privatizing prisons, traffic stops, and even the kicking in of doors. When people mention "giving corporations too much power" nowadays, examples such as Blackwater quickly come to mind, where a corporation was given the authority to use violence with no due process. "It isn't horrible yet, so it isn't a horrible idea" isn't a very good argument.

Re:Another Kink

[Americano]

Your argument seems to be based on the fact that the government is a static thing, its not, its a representative of the people elected by the people.

Certainly elected by the people. Representing the people? That's debatable.

Corporations are not representatives of the people and do not have the interests of the people in their interests.

This would explain the massive proliferation of companies whose sole business is murdering innocent civilians, right? Corporations are made up of people - often the same people they do business with, and who live right alongside customers of that corporation. And any corporation without the interests of its customers (the people) at heart is not going to remain in business long, barring government force (e.g., granted monopoly status, or restrictive regulations which raise barriers to entry into a market.)

Corporations are responsive, as well. A small-but-vocal minority of people have been lobbying for marijuana legalization for years. A small-but-vocal minority of people have been lobbying for tuna companies to require dolphin-safe fishing practices for years. Who achieved their aims first? If you hit a corporation in its pocket book, it adjusts its policies, or it dies. Try not paying your taxes, let me know how that works out for you when they toss you in a federal prison.

What you're doing is arguing that a few large multinational corporations going rogue undermines the very concept of the free market, when in fact the vast majority of those corporations went rogue because people trusted the government (Hello, SEC!) to regulate, monitor, and oversee these companies and ensure that they weren't doing anything too risky, or corrupt. The government failed in that responsibility, and a few large corporations were caught with their pants down. What about the - literally - millions of small and mid-sized corporations that make up the bulk of the economy, and who have largely run their operations ethically and honestly? If the market was as inherently dangerous and corrupt and inhuman as you seem to think, then it would be newsworthy only when a business operated ethically - not when a few business behave badly.

The idea that "the market" will decide to buy their products or not is also a fallacy, with the size of corporations and the power they hold they often times leave consumers no choice.

Give me an example of what you mean by this. What products, specifically, are you unable to find an alternative for?

Private organisations should NEVER hold more power than the representatives of the people and anyone who thinks the other way around hasn't fully thought through what they are proposing.

I agree - but I answered your either/or question as it was posed - either the government, or corporations, get more power - then pointed out it was a false dichotomy. I'm all for power (and thus freedom) residing where it should: with the people, and with as-local-as-possible government where appropriate. But given the choice between giving power to the government, or leaving the power up to the "free market" to work out a practical solution to... I'd choose free market in many (perhaps even most) instances, because the "free market" can't (legally) deprive me of life and liberty if I disagree with its solution. The government can.

Re:Another Kink

[rpresser]

A *liberal* concept? Hast thou forgotten which President *created* the TSA and the DHS?

Re:Another Kink

[JasterBobaMereel]

You have a free market, anyone is free to install their own copper or fibre to your property, and charge you accordingly (they won't because it would maker thier service prohibitively expensive), anyone is free to use your current line provider's lines, and your current provider is free to charge what they like for them

This means in practical terms that you are stuck with whoever provides your lines ...

Regulation in the EU means your line provider has to let other use their lines, only charge a "reasonable" amount, and gets a fixed reasonable fee direct from the customer for doing so (which means they actually maintain it)

The Free Market only works if you have a choice, but companies know the best way of maximising profits is to remove your choice ...

Re:Another Kink

[Curunir_wolf]

False. To me, net neutrality means nobody controls the Internet, and that is as it should be.

It should, but the Feds are already interfering with it too much. This rule-making by unelected bureaucrats is just the foot in the door. Next up is PROTECT-IP, and E-PARASITE, then ACTA, then more and more control. What good is it to prevent the ISPs from blocking content when the the big content providers can take out whoever they want, practically at will.

Why are you so anxious to kill net neutrality

Actually, I want real network neutrality. I don't trust the government to provide it, they have proven to be entirely untrustworthy in that regard. I don't trust the ISPs, either, but every time there has been a problem with them blocking or throttling anything, it didn't last very long once people started complaining. When was last time a Federal agency was that responsive? And if this 155 page rule from the FCC turns out to cause problems, how long before anything is done about it?

Re:Another Kink

[NeutronCowboy]

Good point. To some extent, I see it as a combination of the two: the current telecoms are monopolies both through the nature of their market and through government fiat. My main beef is that people who don't have a clue about how telecoms operate think that all it would take is to remove the government from the market, and everything will be rainbows and unicorn farts. Instead, it will be even worse, because the government would then have officially said that it has no business regulating telecoms.

Re:Another Kink

[Vancorps]

I'm sorry, how does saying that ISPs can't throttle based on the end point giving the government MORE control? It sure sounds like it gives them less control. When DPI tools are no longer in place it becomes increasingly difficult for the government to control who has access to what. You might want to check on your definitely of net neutrality.

Re:Another Kink

[LearnToSpell]

Because Google, Apple, Microsoft, and Oracle don't have legal authority to kick in your doors and imprison you

Careful with that one.

Re:Another Kink

[Grishnakh]

So you're saying you need government regulation to ensure a free market for consumers? Watch out, you're going to make some Teabaggers' heads explode.

Re:Another Kink

[Grishnakh]

Citation needed. The only "chemical weapons" recovered in Iraq were some old, non-functional munitions that Saddam's army had forgotten about.

Re:Another Kink

[Shatrat]

The USA has similar regulation.
http://transition.fcc.gov/telecom.html
The company I work for sells thousands of circuits on Incumbent Local Exchange Carrier (ILEC) facilities (lines).
The prices are regulated and they are required to provide the same level of service, and the FCC can and frequently does fine them if they do not. The actual level of service is generally more dependent on how good you are at gaming their ticketing system than who is leasing the line, in reality.

Re:Another Kink

[osu-neko]

No, conservatives want personal freedom to choose ISPs.

No, conservatives give lip service to the concept, while promoting policies to ensure it won't be an option. The Republican Party in particular favors policies that lead to a centrally-planned economy, the only difference between their concept and the Soviet one being that the central planning occurs in a boardroom instead of a committee room. Both of these extremes deny people the free market freedom that most liberals favor, but conservatives see everything in black and white, so if you don't take it to their extreme, you must be a "socialist" advocating the opposite extreme. They can't even tell that you're arguing for a different position than either of the idiotic extremes.

Re:Another Kink

[PopeRatzo]

Of course, this *is* a false dichotomy; one can be conservative without favoring giving more power to corporations.

Citation please.

Just one contemporary example.

Of the two alternatives in your false dichotomy, giving corporations more power is certainly the lesser evil.

The false dichotomy comes from the fact that corporations currently run government. Every single law passed by the Federal legislature and every state legislature is written by lobbyists. Just look at Europe and the US to see that every government is putting the banks, which are all corporations, ahead of their people or their own sovereignty. When we hear about how the EU is going to "bail out Greece" what that means is that they're going to bail out the banks to whom Greece owes money. When they talk about "bailing out Italy" they're talking about bailing out the banks to whom Italy owes money. The reason these banks need to be bailed out? Because they played with the previous money governments gave them and blew it all at the roulette table. When you hear about the "TARP bailouts", it was bank holding corporations that got bailed out, and not just bailed out, but made whole to the tune of 100 cents on the dollar. It was unthinkable that a banker might have to take 90 cents on the dollar for the money they lost playing roulette.

No, because of three decades of increasing corporate power, there is not a government on earth that has as much power as that which is concentrated in the hands of transnational corporations.

And no, guns don't represent power when the people holding the guns are wholly owned and take their orders from corporations.

In theory, there is no false dichotomy between "government" and "corporations". Government is the only institution that can possibly be a counterbalance, a check, on the power of corporations, and now it's too late. The Supreme Court of the US basically said, "Corporations are super-citizens". Instead of being 3/5 of a citizen, a corporations is 500million/1 of a citizen And corporations are golems, virtual machines which share no properties with human beings, simply capital aggregated. What's good for them has nothing to do with what's good for human beings.

Re:Another Kink

[Trogre]

I mostly agree with what you say, but we are now seeing governments effectively bought by corporations who are writing laws to benefit only them. So you can right now be slapped with ludicrous fines for copyright infringement. How long until imprisonment is on the cards too? Then there's the business laws, that make small computer programming businesses so difficult as to be unfeasible.

Re:Another Kink

[PopeRatzo]

How do corporations achieve power of any sort? There are two mechanisms:

Man, you left some out.

For example, corporation can achieve power buy purchasing its competitors, something only government can prevent. In that case they have produced nothing. A corporation can achieve power through purchasing intellectual property. In this case, they have produced nothing. A corporation can achieve power through marketing. Again, without producing anything.

Of course, this requires that voters & consumers be educated, and that elected representatives possess a shred of integrity; if neither is willing to develop or exercise those faculties - with voters penalizing candidates who have whored themselves out to special interests by not voting for them, and politicians not whoring themselves out to special interests - then as Thomas Jefferson reputedly opined, we get the government we deserve.

It's more complicated than that, Americano. They system as it stands, propelled by the Supreme Court decisions, allows for unlimited financial involvement in elections by corporations (something that does not exist for individuals). By having elections that are entirely financed through contributions, where money equals speech, you have a situation where anyone who wants to achieve elected office has to first court powerful corporate entities (with very rare exceptions). Then, like it or not, you have elected officials who are completely beholden to their financial benefactors. By creating an environment of the year-round campaign, there is never a time when an elected official does not need to ask his benefactors for money. Again, government is the only entity that can solve this problem, by campaign finance reform, public financing of elections, and constitutional amendment stating that money does NOT equal speech and corporations are NOT people.

Jefferson, who you quote, and the other founding fathers were pretty smart guys, very good writers. Very specific guys. If they had wanted money to equal speech, they could have easily have put that into the constitution. It is not intuitive that money should equal speech. Second, they could have easily have stated in the constitution that corporations are people. They were very specific about enumerating which rights could not be infringed by the government, and no where did they mention any "right" of corporations to do or have or say anything at all. And yes, there were examples of powerful corporations around in the last part of the 18th century.

Slight problem in summary

[dkleinsc]

The debate over net neutrality has largely been split on party lines, with the Democratic party mostly being for keeping net neutrality laws in place, and the GOP looking to avoid them.

They aren't laws right now, they're regulations. In a conflict between laws and regulations, laws win.

Re:Slight problem in summary

[roninmagus]

Thank you. I came here to say just that. It's more than a "slight problem" also, as to me it represents the complete misunderstanding of the issue at hand. It's not that those "evil GOP want to take over your internetz" as is usually framed. It's that "those evil GOP want lawmakers to make the laws and not more FCC decrees." That's not to say they're for or against it, IMO. They want to stop un-elected bodies from making judgements such as this. While I am for net neutrality, Obama should call this for what it is instead of using a populist tactic to fool people into thinking he's looking out for their good. I do not support beurocrats making up laws we all have to abide by.

Re:Slight problem in summary

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's see...
Regulator aka bureaucrat familiar with the industry (supposed to be an expert) he or she is regulating

Law maker aka at best a laymen having their opinion on matters formed by 22 year old legislative aids and lobbyists

I can see why law makers are the vastly superior option here

Re:Slight problem in summary

[jthill]

And laws Congress writes aren't supreme right now. You might as well say things the Lieutenant tells you to do aren't orders right now. Regulations have the force of law. Agencies have the authority to write them because Congress handed them that authority, and Congress had that authority because we handed it to them. Your daddy didn't teach you this? Didn't care enough to check whether the schools did?

Re:Slight problem in summary

[dkleinsc]

Agencies have the authority to write them because Congress handed them that authority, and Congress had that authority because we handed it to them.

And authority that Congress giveth, Congress can taketh away. That's my point. Even if Obama vetoes, if Congress had the votes, they could override the veto and force Obama and the FCC to comply. Or they could defund the FCC entirely.

Re:Slight problem in summary

[Baron von Daren]

That’s ludicrous. You actually expect legislators have the time to personally attend to every facet of governance? Even if they randomly voted devoid of any knowledge or research on the subjects they would never have the time. Regulatory bodies are extensions of the representative process. In other words, elect competent and ethical politicians, and ideally they appoint competent officials to aid them in the process of maintaining a stable society.

People need to remove their fantastical ideological blinders and take a good look at the real world. As I’ve probably said on /. before, the nations with potent governments and strong regulatory infrastructures are the nations that have the most prosperous markets and offer the most personal liberty. Nations that have impotent and ‘small’ governments (e.g. Afghanistan, Hattie, Somalia, etc.) are not gardens of personal liberty and commerce.

The government may be flawed, but it is, regulatory bodies included, pretty much your only advocate against amalgamated, self-interested power. The invisible hand is a fantasy and it will not save us. When you take the referee out of the game, people and corporations cheat. Competition alone, even where it actually exists, is insufficient to keep massively powerful entities honest. We aren’t talking about two ice cream venders on either side of the street in a small town. We are talking about titanic multinational conglomerates enmeshed in a complex global economy and enshrouded in a labyrinth externalities. In this kind of global economic environment it’s pretty unrealistic to place the burden of regulating markets solely on the back of consumers. Consumers certainly have power, but not nearly enough, and this doesn’t even broach the issue of visibility into a staggeringly complex marketplace.

Re:Slight problem in summary

[MobyDisk]

That's not true. Common carrier laws have been in place for *hundreds of years*. The US actually inherited them from British commonlaw, back when they were concerned that freight carriers could mess with cargo. This only became a problem when the courts ruled that voice calls sent over the internet is not a voice call.

Re:Slight problem in summary

[Palshife]

They aren't laws right now, they're regulations. In a conflict between laws and regulations, laws win.

True, but in a conflict between a bill and the president's veto, the veto wins (unless Congress overrides, like that'll happen).

The problem isn't equal treatment of all traffic

[Chrisq]

The problem isn't equal treatment of all traffic. Nobody would complain about FTP traffic being slowed during busy bursts to avoid interfering with voice traffic. It is the stated aim of some ISPs to throttle back certain sites unless you pay a premium. So Microsoft could agree to pay certain ISPs to advertise bing while at the same time making google very slow and barely usable. They could also undermine free sites by charging the provider to allow customers reasonable access, meaning that they have a charge to pass on somewhere. The end result will be the end of the free to access internet.

noooooo

[Anonymous Coward]

This really grinds my gears.

I'll start my own damn internet... with hookers and booze!

Re:Please repeal!

[RazzleFrog]

Some despite the fact that private companies have pretty much destroyed our economy you are ok with them controlling the internet, too?

Re:Please repeal!

[Anonymous Coward]

I know, right? That's why food contamination actually got worse after we passed the Pure Food And Drug Act.

Wait, did I say "worse"? Sorry, I meant "better".

You're taking "government will always handle everything worse than any private company" as an article of faith not backed by evidence. Sorry, I'm not religious in that particular manner.

Re:Please repeal!

[scharkalvin]

In general I'm against the government adding senseless regulations, but in THIS case the regulation IS necessary. It's actually a requirement that all traffic be treated equal. How would you like it if the post office told you that from now on unless you put two extra stamps on each of your letters they would add a week to the delivery time of your first class mail?

Re:If you don't like Net Neutrality,

[mlingojones]

That's not how it works. The reason they can do that with this Internet is that they were the ones who invented it in the first place.

LAN vs Internet Neutrality

[morgauxo]

I'll take net neutrality laws as they have been written any day over letting the ISPs just do as they please. After all, the broadband ones are all old entrenched telecom and media companies that already do discriminate between content. At the very least they pretty much all throttle P2P which contrary to some people's opinions can and is used for plenty of good, non-pirate things.

On the other hand... why can't we have laws which distinguish between a provider's LAN services and the internet? When TV service comes through the modem on what is essentially a big LAN, usually a 10.x.x.x network and the internet comes through as a tunnel on that LAN then I think net neutrality laws should be applied to what comes through the tunnel, not the whole LAN connection. The LAN belongs to the ISP, the Internet does not.

In other words, when I connect to the internet I expect to be able to reach Google, Bing or some other competitior, NetFlix, some big corporate website or somebody's personal page all equally (as far as my ISPs connection is concerned, obviously they will each have different providers and capacity). If however the ISP has some kind of assurance in place that the other services on their LAN aren't being 'squeezed out' by the Internet tunnel that is fine with me.

Then again, with an ever faster Internet traditional TV and phone services become pretty obsolete. Using that whole LAN for Internet access and plugging my computer into my TV sounds just fine to me and I haven't had use for a landline in years.

Re:Please repeal!

[jellie]

Oh right, because private companies would do such a good job to ensure net neutrality. I mean, who's supposed to ensure that content gatekeepers don't create tiered services? ISPs? Uh huh...

Sometimes you just need to admit that government regulations are necessary. No FDA? You can go back to the days before Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" and Frances Oldham Kelsey. How about the EPA? Not sure why people oppose the Clean Air Act and Clean Water Act. And if the US government were a company, you might have been bankrupt long ago.

Re:The problem isn't equal treatment of all traffi

[Verteiron]

Yes, the solution is simply to switch ISPs- oh, wait, most people in the US have only two broadband providers available at most, and they both have abhorrent neutrality practices.

I can't start my own ISP because the barrier to entry is impossibly high and the current ISPs have state or city-granted monopolies on internet/phone/cable service.

Free market theory doesn't work when the market isn't free.

Re:Please repeal!

[deathguppie]

Net Neutrality is about stopping companies from being able to regulate Internet traffic. Thus many would contend that in effect NN is de-regulation.

Re:Please repeal!

[RazzleFrog]

And what's your point? You think that just because they "ARE" the economy they can't self-destruct and take us with them? The problem is when they self-destruct the captains don't go down with the ship. Do you really think Corzine is going to have problems paying his mortgage after driving MF Global into the ground? Or Richard Fuld from Lehman Brothers?

Unless you are one of those obscenely overpaid executives I don't understand why you would ever take their side.

Net Nuetrality Laws?

[Bartles]

There are no net neutrality laws in place. Calling it a law implies that it was passed by the legislature, and signed by the executive. Net neutrality "laws" are nothing more than a decree issued by a federal agency that has too much power.

Lacking is a common definition

[sohmc]

Back when google was cool and actually believed in "do no evil", it supported net neutrality the way most people understand it.

Ask the common geek, I would assume many of them would agree the following should be defined as Net Neutrality:
* Treat all data equally, regardless of source. (e.g. data from Bob's Video Shack would be treated the same as Netflix)
* Do not block services (e.g. BitTorrent should not be blocked)
* Do not block web sites (e.g. Comcast/NBC should not block access to ABC/CBS/etc)
* and probably a few I'm forgetting.

If an ISP wants to charge more for bandwidth, that's understandable. It's a limited resource.

But I shouldn't have to pay more to visit netflix just because 75% of the traffic goes there. I already paid for the bandwidth!

The problem I see is that corporations who control content and access are trying to define "Net Neutrality", when really they are defining a set of policies to make them more money. Maybe before putting together regulations and laws, IETF can get together a RFC of what Net Neutrality should be.

Re:Please repeal!

[DarwinSurvivor]

That's a stupid analogy. First of all, the post office already DOES that. The more you pay, the faster it gets there. Second of all, ISP's also already do this. The more you pay, the faster your connection.

Re:Please repeal!

[phlinn]

Governments work by force "Do this or else". Corporations work by persuasaion "if you Do this for us, we will do something else for you". There is a major difference in kind there, even if the "something else" is the only realistic choice you have to live. People who think corporations can rule or enslave people without the explicit efforts of government haven't actually been paying attention. American slavery would NOT have existed without the government decreeing that you can have a property right over people.

Bill number?

[OhHellWithIt]

I wish TFA or the people who post articles about pending legislation would include the @#%^ bill number! It looks like this one is H.J.RES.37, in case any of you feel like writing your senator. (It would be delightful if we could slashdot Congress.)

Re:Please repeal!

[MimeticLie]

Except that puts the burden of enforcement on individuals. I know I certainly don't have the resources to stand up to a major corporation in court, do you?

Under the system you're suggesting, environmental enforcement would only happen if the victim was tremendously wealthy or the damage was so egregious that a lawyer could smell a massive payoff (which, of course, would be eaten up almost entirely by attorney's fees). I can't really think of a way your proposal could benefit massive polluters more.

Re:Please repeal!

[TheRaven64]

You could also say that "despite the fact that the government has pretty much destroyed our economy, you are okay with them controlling the Internet, too?"

When most of the damage that the government did was through removing regulations... yes. Especially since we're not talking about the government controlling the Internet, we're talking about the government imposing limits on how much private enterprises can control it.

Re:The problem isn't equal treatment of all traffi

[Miamicanes]

The problem is that the whole issue of net neutrality is misframed. We don't necessarily need or want "net" neutrality. What needs to be absolutely sacrosanct is LAST MILE NEUTRALITY. We should all have the absolute, inalienable right to have our network traffic handled with absolute neutrality between our endpoint device (router, phone, whatever) and the nearest peering point where access is available on open, equal, and neutral terms to all (ie, not "free", but if AT&T pays $N per month for a 1U rack slot and the right to run a single fiber to it, anybody else should be able to do exactly the same thing for exactly the same price.

To keep carriers able to blur the line between last-mile and "internet" service honest (say, a carrier like Verizon that bundles "free" internet access with 2gb cap with the cost of monthly wireless service, but charges 1c/meg wholesale costs to anybody who peers privately with them), VPN traffic should be the one exception that enjoys special protected status and by law can be neither favored nor throttled relative to traffic of the network's most favored provider. In other words, Verizon would be perfectly free to throttle Netflix in favor of Blockbuster, or Google in favor of Bing, but if they did, VPN traffic would have to be given exactly the same priority as their otherwise-favored Blockbuster and Bing traffic. This would empower consumers to do an end run around the carriers by purchasing VPN service from some thirdparty with traffic policies they happen to like better. In the long run it probably wouldn't matter much, but like legislatively-mandated equal access to landline phone networks, it would nevertheless create opportunities for niche (if expensive) services that otherwise wouldn't exist at all.

The truth is, hardcore last-mile neutrality isn't necessarily about lower prices for Joe Sixpack -- it's about enabling services for Slashdot users that otherwise wouldn't be available because they don't neatly align with the business plans of AT&T, Verizon, or Comcast. It's about being able to do an end run around them and enjoy services they aren't themselves necessarily interested in selling you, or allowing you to buy from others.

(example: if you're moderately wealthy, live in the middle of Georgia farm country or exurban Dallas "Horse Country" and want broadband, a company like Covad will happily twist AT&T's arm and force them -- at slightly exorbitant cost -- to provision wholesale dry copper between the nearest central office and your house and give you what you want, even if AT&T itself would tell you it simply can't be done and broadband isn't available in your neighborhood).

Re:Please repeal!

[mcgrew]

I'm all in favour of net neutrality, but I'm sorry, no private company could possibly screw up things as bad as when the government gets involved and starts "regulating".

You want government vs "free" market? Let me tell you about Illinois electric companies. My provider, CWLP, is government owned and operated. Ten miles away they have the corporate Amerin.

My electric bills are half of Amerin customers. Amerin's customer service is abysmal, CWLP's is excellent. CWLP has the best uptime in the state, the lowest rates in the state, and is not only completely self-supporting, but eases our taxes here because it makes a profit that goes straight to the city government.

In March of 2006 two F2 (almost F3) tornados ripped through here and completely destroyed the electrical infrastructure in the southern part of town. My neighborhood didn't have a single pole left. My power was back on in a week. It was a couple of years before all evidence of the tornados was gone.

In June of that year an F1 passed through Cahokia, 100 miles south, where I used to live. They have Amerin. I visited my friend Jeff a month after that tornado, and the only evidence a tornado had been there was that he still didn't have any electricity, a FULL MONTH LATER. The poles and wires were up, but had no power.

See, Jeff has no recourse. He can't just switch to a different electric company and he can't vote against Amerin's CEO. So Amerin can fuck him over any way it wants; the only thing that keeps Amerin in check at all is the (how you put it) "regulating".

If I get bad customer service, frequent outages, or high bills the Mayor will lose his job next election.

Sorry, son, but you've swallowed toxic corporate bullshit. You believe a lie. Wake up.

Re:Please repeal!

[mcgrew]

Who would have ever thought that people who swallow bullshit corporate media propaganda that completely opposes reason and logic would have slashdot accounts? Anyone earning less than $300k per year in the tea party is, IMO, a complete moron.

No question about it...

[cpotoso]

Republicans are evil. Unfortunately the democrats are just plain incompetent. Sigh!

It does not matter

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no economic orientation, nor government structure, that can protect people from corruption.

So long as humans are capable of attaining any measure of power over other humans, that power will be abused. Humans are like that.

Carry on.

Socialism, but forget Net Neutrality

[Kamiza Ikioi]

Yeah, it's bold faced socialism, but having subsidized guaranteed Internet for as many as possible is the best plus for people. The other issues matter, but the access issue, even to a heavily regulated connection, is better than nothing. This is why I think the change from rural telephone access to rural broadband access is the real win for everyone.

I've long since abandoned the idea of "Neutrality". Net Neutrality is all about dividing up never increasing pie into larger and smaller pieces. It's about market share of something artificially set up as a limited resource.

I'm behind the idea of an Internet policy of "no person left behind". I'm less concerned about Comcast giving preferential treatment to Netflix than I am to rural school children and their parents having competitively priced broadband in the first place. We also need a national policy standard on speed the same way we have a national policy standard on gas mileage.

We are falling drastically behind other countries that have fiber as their last mile. At 1000Mb+, throttling for most services approaches irrelevancy. The highest total bandwidth service currently, Netflix, is insignificant traffic on fiber.

Rather than arguing over dividing up low bandwidth, we need to push to increase bandwidth by upgrading aging last mile networks.

Re:Please repeal!

[artor3]

You're seriously citing a Free Republic post and an American Spectator article called "EPA Jackboots" as sources? Rush Limbaugh is more reliable.

Oh, and that lovely conservative lie about Mr. Pozsgai is bunk. Here's the truth of what happened.

Mr. Pozsgai wanted to build a 12000 sq ft garage on some land near his business. He hired an engineer to survey the site. That engineer warned him that the site met the government's definition of wetlands, and he would need a permit before filling the land. He hired another engineer for a second opinion, and then a third. Each told him the same thing. Note that he had not yet bought the land. He could have just accepted the law at this point, and only been out the cost of the surveys.

Instead he purchased the site, negotiating a 20% discount because he wouldn't be able to build there. He then immediately began an illegal filling operation. The Army Corps of Engineers came out and warned him to stop, in writing and in person. He claimed that the site was already like that, and he had been fixing it. However, the Corps came out again the next month, and found even more landfill than before. They warned him to stop it, and gave him a cease and desist letter. They came out again the next month, and the month after that, each time finding more landfill and each time telling Mr. Pozsgai to cut it out. This went on for over a year, from April of 1987 to May of 1988.

In May of '88, witnesses living next door reported hundreds of dump trucks showing up to pour more landfill into the wetlands. The Army Corps of Engineers installed a video camera and captured footage of another 25 such dump trucks pooring landfill into the site, completely demolishing Mr. Pozsgai's claim that he was trying to clean up existing dumping. He was brought to trial, where he did not even bother to deny the dumping anymore. Instead, he claimed that since the phrase "wetlands" isn't explicitly mentioned in the Clean Water Act, wetlands must not count as water! This defense was understandably rejected, and he was sentenced to 3 years in a minimum security prison.

Re:Please repeal!

[MobyDisk]

I get your point but your example could be improved. How about:

How would you like it if the post office told you that from now on unless you put two extra stamps on letters that go to certain recipients of their choosing, that each of your letters they would add a week to the delivery time of your first class mail?

The issue is largely about *unequal* treatment. And the issue is also on the receiver's end:

How would you like it if the post office told you that from now on, unless you paid them a fee, letters that came from certain recipients of their choosing, would add a week to the receipt time of your first class mail?

And it still isn't as gripping as network neutrality, because I can send letters through other means. There are other mail and freight carriers.

Re:Because "chink" means something else

[mcgrew]

chink 1 (chngk)
n.
A narrow opening, such as a crack or fissure.
tr.v. chinked, chinkÂing, chinks
1. To make narrow openings in.
2. To fill narrow openings in.

"Chink in the armor" has nothing whatever to do with the Chinese. You would refuse to use the word "spade" because it can also mean a black person, besides a certain type of digging tool?

Ever heard the phrase "call a spade a spade?" That phrasee has nothing to do with black people, just as "chink in the armor" has nothing to do with Chinese people.

Re:The problem isn't equal treatment of all traffi

[dkleinsc]

In addition, thanks to the problem of peering, it doesn't even have to be your ISP causing the problem. It can be the ISP controlling any link in the chain between me and whatever I'm trying to communicate with.

For instance, if I get my Internet access via Fabulous Inc (who is net neutral, cheap, fast, etc), and I'm trying to reach, say, slashdot.org, to do that I might connect to Fabulous who connects to BS&S who connects to slashdot.org. I didn't choose to make use of BS&S's lines, Linux.org did. So if BS&S decides to not play fair, it doesn't matter what ISP I choose, because the only way to get to slashdot.org is to go through BS&S, and BS&S is throttling or blocking slashdot.org.

Re:Please repeal!

[phlinn]

So, someone wouldn't have been accused of theft for freeing a slave and running away with it? Maybe the federal government wouldn't have gotten involved, but there were sure as hell governments actively protecting slave owners.

Re:The problem isn't equal treatment of all traffi

[CCurzon]

No you wouldn't, at least not the way parent is meaning. A few extra milliseconds between packets in an FTP connection aren't noticeable. Do that in a VoIP call and you get jitter and echo. Get the packets out of order and your FTP download will still be good, while in a VoIP call will they will be dropped and you won't hear the other person. I have seen that only a few missing or late packets will cause a lot of hassle in VoIP, and I believe there are other applications and protocols that would be affected.

Slowing traffic that doesn't care to make way for traffic that does is good. Slowing down traffic "just because" is, as you very rightly pointed out" really bad.

Re:No surprises here

[CrimsonAvenger]

Not really surprised; after all, this is the same US House of Representatives majority that believes the reason we don't have more jobs is that businesses aren't allowed to poison us as much as they'd like.

Actually, this isn't about the House of Representatives at all. It's about the Senate.

You remember, the one controlled by the Democrats....

Re:Please repeal!

[iluvcapra]

Terms like "always" and "never" impose very heavy burdens of proof.

Re:Please repeal!

[Black Parrot]

I'm all in favour of net neutrality, but I'm sorry, no private company could possibly screw up things as bad as when the government gets involved and starts "regulating".

So, did California get Enron'd before you were born?

Or are you just jerking your knee to the tune of a political mantra?

Re:Please repeal!

[wolfemi1]

Good explanation! I feel though that it should be noted that his neighbors reported Pozsgai because THEIR PROPERTIES WERE FLOODING as a result of him filling in the wetlands: http://www.epa.gov/owow/wetlands/facts/fact15.html

Re:Please repeal!

[Alsee]

If I may contribute to your post, here's a link to the Third Circuit United States Court of Appeals ruling which explains Mr. Pozsgai's behavior in detail.

There are a few more details from the case I'd like to point out. Mr. Pozsgai himself stated in that the police came to his property in August 1987 and showed him the EPA order to cease and desist dumping landfill on the property. In December 1987 the EPA sent Mr. Pozsgai an umpteenth letter which, aside from yet again informing him his activities were illegal, also informed him that he could remedy the situation and get permission to proceed with his landfill if he merely obtained a Water Quality Certification from the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Resources.

But my favorite part is how on August 26 1988 a Court issued a temporary restraining order explicitly ordering him to cease. And how Mr. Pozsgai flagrantly defied that court order two days later, when he was videoed dumping 25 additional truckloads on the property and personally driving a bulldozer leveling the fill.

But of course only a wildly biased treehugger commie liberal would pay any attention to "facts" from the court record. A true conservative will go by the FreeRepublic account.

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