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Hamburg To Fine Facebook Over Facial Recognition Feature
An anonymous reader writes "Johannes Caspar, data protection commissioner for the German state of Hamburg, today declared he will soon fine Facebook over its use of biometric facial recognition technology. He said 'further negotiations are pointless' because the company had ignored a deadline he set for it to remove the feature. German authorities could fine Facebook up to €300,000 ($420,000)."
Most european countries can fine facebook if they want.
I could do without ym face being recognized as well.
It's silly for one state/province/city/school board to try to regulate the activites of an international website.
The situation is different from, say, a company actually setting up a location or conducting physical sales somewhere.
How is a site even to know whether or not it's sending packets to a particular locale?
If it's so intolerable to Hamburg for Facebook to "do business there", they can always just block Facebook.
Lol yeah Greek debt is the problem when Germany has more than three times the debt of Greece.
Germany actually has industry. It's like how if a homeless bum owes $1000, he's never going to pay it, whereas an upper-middle-class guy with a job can owe $300,000 on a mortgage and another $20,000 on a car and still have a future ahead of him.
Facebook's even going to notice that?
I'm a nature photographer.
Americans are too endepted to shake down :-(
Of course typical social euro mentality....
Excuse my ignorance, but isn't Facebook an american corp?
Why are they somehow held to the law of a different country. More to the point who is going enforce the German law?
Shut down the 'German headquarters' or branch if there is one and just go on with life? Why is the a problem, Is there some kind of treaty that will force them
to pay the fine in the U.S.?
I'm not being a wise cracker. Can someone answer these questions? I'd like to know.
So what will you whine about when Canada does the same thing? The privacy commissioner launched a similar investigation into this as well, though our fine could be in the several million dollar range.
Om, nomnomnom...
In other news, Facebook tells Hamburg where they can stick it and Casper disappears under mysterious circumstances.
Silly goose, only the government can use facial recognition!
No European travel any more for any of Facebooks senior management.
Even if they're just "passing through"
It'll be the same treatment as meted out to the management of European gambling/poker websites who got snatched whilst visiting the US.
I don't understand - yeah, 420k is like nothing to facebook, but why would they ever pay? I.e., what can germany do to facebook? Boycott it? So what? Ask the US government to hold up their ruling? It hasn't been declared illegal in the US.
Paying would imply some agreement that this would, could or should be illegal, so facebook clearly has an incentive to fight it. I'm wondering what incentive they have to not simply ignore it. (I assume I'm missing something.)
Thanks!
Not enough cash from the high taxes? No problem, just start shaking down the Americans.
I am sure someone can come up with something better.
That works fine until this upper-middle-class guy's job is shipped over to some third-world shithole nation where the work is performed at a small fraction of the cost by somebody with an even smaller fraction of the skill doing a very horrible job at it. Now the upper-middle-class guy is $300,000 in debt and jobless. Since he was a manager for a few years, he no longer has any technical skills, and there are no management jobs available, so he's shit out of luck. Even if he took that job at Burger King, it'd still take him over 20 years to pay down that debt, and that's without spending money on anything else, and without taking into account the interest! Furthermore, thanks to "Free Trade" and their outsourcing blunder, the company he used to work for will go under in a few months, so he has no chance of ever going back there. He can't even start up his own business, because nobody is willing to lend him any more money given his current $300,000 debt load. Even though he's making absolutely no income, and the interest on his debt grows daily, he still needs to provide food and shelter for his family. He can't sell his house, because nobody else is financially sound enough to purchase it. Even worse, he can't sell his car because he lives in the suburbs where there is absolutely no public transit and the only way to get the basic necessities of life is to drive 20 km into the city. Welcome to America, circa 2011.
Will Facebook gladly pay on Tuesday for an open faced Hamburger today?
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Obviously. Taxes are indeed high, though as long as you keep buying our resources, we won't have any shortage of money.
Om, nomnomnom...
Facebook pulls out of Germany and suspends all German accounts. Johannes Caspar is removed from office when the Facebook-deprived masses start rioting in the streets.
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When do companies ever make a stand like that?
Oh right, never. Facebook will just adapt their service.
So what will you whine about when Canada does the same thing? The privacy commissioner launched a similar investigation into this as well, though our fine could be in the several million dollar range.
Don't worry, your southern neighbour will invade you in the near future.
Fallout wasn't so off the mark it seems (American annexes Canada to keep the peace).
That works fine until this upper-middle-class guy's job is shipped over to some third-world shithole nation where the work is performed at a small fraction of the cost by somebody with an even smaller fraction of the skill doing a very horrible job at it.
That's more of an American thing, sell out your countrymen - and to a degree, your customers - for higher profits. 'Made in the USA' used to a hallmark of quality, it's now been replaced with 'Designed in the USA. Made in China.'
not enough domestic oil left at a price to keep the 'natives' happy no problem lets just invade and takesome one else.
Besides Greece and Italy can allways borrow off the Chinese it's not like any one else is borrowing that money.
No problem, just start shaking down the Americans.
Yeah, they have plenty of cash
Exactly. Germany figured out how to have a first-world country that can still make things. They're still #2 for exports worldwide. The USA, on the other hand, is going to get worse before it starts to get better.
Yep. Mind your own business.
This is why you rent a house, lease a car, and learn chinese. $300 on rosetta-stone and you can live like a king as a cab driver in shanghai!
the cost of using biometric facial recognition technology on facebook in germany is about 300k euros.
insensitive clod overlords obligatory xkcd car analogy russian reversals whoosh pedant fanbois ftfy in 3...2...1..PROFIT
Who do you think you are, Johannes Caspar? Facebook doesn't respond to anyone else complaining about their high-handed actions, so why should they respond to you?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
They've already tried that two or three times and failed miserably at it.
If they want to do business in Germany, they comply with German law. Not sure what's so difficult to understand on that point... wouldn't be the first time Facebook has had to adjust its practices to stay on the friendly side of the law. Actually, it wouldn't be the first time they've had to adjust their practices to comply with German law, at that. The reason you can hide your profile from search, among other privacy features you've been granted, are because of the orders of the German and Canadian privacy commissions....
Have you ever wondered why can someone get paid less and do OK with it? This in my opinion is the true turning point, WE as a whole should be thinking as one. Forget the borders and nations and whatever. WE need to figure it out. Hell, if half of Africa isn't hospitable for harboring so many humans, maybe the science should make forward for making it hospitable. WE want to go to Mars? If WE are thinking WE can make that place livable, maybe WE should start here on Earth first? Is it normal for anyone to think that the current time period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_time_periods) we live in is the end of the list ultimate one? Frak that. I'm sure change is coming and for me rather then turning to a God I'm starting to believe the 2012 predictions. NOT the paranoid ones, but the original ones: Beginning of the new age. Still I'm not even sure I can last a year to wait for it. I'll do my best, but shit is dire. WE seriously need an intervention from the higher power (be that God or Alien - I'm picking Aliens on this one). In the end just think about this for a moment: money is a universal currency and is equivalent by the power (be it brain or labor) a person gives. If that translates to an UNIVERSAL currency, if a job in America and an job in India is paid the same... would it matter? Of course not.. It's US ... the HUMANS that made it that way. Borders make us separated... Borders make us get that living somewhere else is a good idea... This is a problem in it's root. WE need to UNITE. - imagine this:
Aliens come to Earth. That shit is kinda new to us, but whatever, TV style.
1: They lend in America - "Howdy ho" guns pointed at them, because American are generally scared of everything going on in the World.
2: They lend in Serbia (that's where I'm from) - "De ste rodjaci" - (translated: "Welcome cousins" - lousy translation) hugs all over, thinking "Get us out of this mess, we are now the link to the higher power"... "Jackpot" would say the most. But still the reaction is the CURRENT one. Thinking "We'll stick it to the World, we got our diplomat and his on OUR side, not anyone else". Still thinking about the difference between nations and countries.
3: Anything goes... A lot of envy I sense in everyone's eyes, a lot of WTF going on.
Bottom line... WE are still divided. WE still live in multi-national world. The problems WE are having right now are pathetic at least.
And still after all those thoughts, it comes back to this: Do your job better then others and live good OR do your scams better then others and live good.
PS. I'm veeeeeery drunk.
Peace and love, whoever you are.
PSS. How do I make the (Enter/Break/Return) - also known as next paragraph here? Blah. block of text. TL;DR. I get it. :*
x kepa x
No. We never levied fines. We gave ultimatums, including blocking and seizing their assets in Canada, and the changes went in.
Om, nomnomnom...
You have it backwards. If German users want to use a US service, they can deal with how the service works as constituted in its home country. If the Germans don't want to use some service, they always have that option. This is legal fuckery, no more. Typical mommy government idiocy.
I'm no fan of Facebook -- quite the opposite, in fact, I outright despise them -- but again, my answer is not to use Facebook, not to try to tell them what they can or cannot do.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
and you will understand why Germans have a stick up their ass about this sort of thing.
How does Facebook do business in Germany? Simply because Germans use it is not enough.
If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
Because people are different, people are individual, but by all means let's force everyone to think and act alike, great idea you totalitarian dickhead.
If you run a site that is accessible internationally, how can you ensure that you're always abiding by all nations laws? At what point can a country up and decide you're breaking one of their laws and they can start fining you?
Need any dad jokes?
Ignoring the arguments around Facebook "doing business" in Germany, why is this facial recognition feature actually an issue?
It only provides suggestions for people YOU ARE ALREADY FRIENDS WITH. It's not like it's identifying faces for some drunken J. Random who was walking past your house one night.
This was addressed in the Steve Jobs biography. When asked why he didn't build factories in the US by Obama, he replied that even if he could get all the permits and stuff sorted out, he wouldn't be able to find 30 thousand or so engineers he'd need to keep the thing running.
he wouldn't be able to find 30 thousand or so engineers he'd need to keep the thing running.
Gees you really swallow whatever he gives you, surely it's not a CEO trying to spin some bullshit to justify his company's enormous profits thanks to offshoring, nah CEOs are way too honest for that. What makes you think they need 30,000 engineers? And even if they did you're saying America isn't capable of educating that many engineers? The US has around 70,000 engineering graduates per year (look it up). How do you think Germany (with its much lower population) manages its enormous manufacturing operations?
He's not talking about engineers with 4 year degrees, he's talking about people with the technical training to operate and maintain factory equipment. You don't get that kind of training in college.
You're advocating essentially a "if you build it they will come" mentality. While it may work, it's not something a lot of people would bebt tens of billions of dollars on. That said, Apple could undertake the effort of training people themselves. I suspect they'd rather get their products made as soon as possible, however.
Also, the US has higher industrial output than germany, by a significant margian. It was only recently overtaken by Cina. The problem is that it's mostly in airplanes and chemicals and cars. Not computers. And there are now significant barriers to entry for building new factories. To the extent that it rarely happens anymore.
Facebook has fewer guns than the Nazis did - and the Nazis may have been enabled by information but they executed their plans by force, which is what one of the parties here (not Facebook) is doing.
But, anyway, I were Facebook, my response would be to disable the accounts of the Hamburg users and apologize for not having the desire to customize the platform to every locality's unique laws. Facebook could potentially be up against tens of thousands of micro-customizations here which would be hell to QA.
Let the people sort out with their government how important this sort of prosecution is to them, and let the local networks take back their old job.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
uh - just for the record.
lehman brothers *a us bank* started this whole crisis in 2008.
goldman-sachs *a us bank again* helped greece to mask their debt.
so - pay up for causing all this trouble.
Of course typical social euro mentality....
You say that like its a bad thing. :)
You are simply ignoring the simple fact that Americans are still buying Apple products, nevertheless your arguments.
If the Americans were so concerned with their jobs, they would agree to pay a bit more for Made In USA products.
Lisias@Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Local.Virgo.Universe.org
Getting into debt has a risk attached to it. You played, you lost.
Next time don't take debt as a certainty or as the single way of living a life.
Is 420,000 even enough? What's that number based on?
I hate facebook but the idea of national governments existing, or that privacy is a rational concept, makes me even more angry.
Lol yeah Greek debt is the problem when Germany has more than three times the debt of Greece.
I think that's a bit like saying to your bank manager "why worry about my $5,000 loan when Bill gates has loans many times that size.
"the German state of Hamburg"
Actually Hamburg is a so-called "free city" inside Germany (i.e., is not part of any state / land) due to its history as a free city since 1189. While technically it is a self-governing entity at the level of state, its name and real status is that of a "free and Hanseatic city".
Catalin Braescu
Ofaly.com
I have friends who have exactly this plan in mind. One is currently a secondary level science teacher, the other an Eastern Bloc / Asia specialist for a high-class tourism company. They plan on moving to China to teach English. You get paid UK-level wages, but pay China prices for everything. You're effectively a local millionaire.
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
He's not talking about engineers with 4 year degrees, he's talking about people with the technical training to operate and maintain factory equipment. You don't get that kind of training in college.
You mean the sort of training that companies used to pay for their employees to get, back when America and other Western countries were less fucked?
Of course there's a flip side to this. Facebook lawyers could just say " You can want money in one hand and shit in the other hand, then see which hand fills up first. Go ahead and BLOCK FACEBOOK if you don't like it, then we'll see how long it takes your massive crowd of users to make your life bitter hell."
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
He's not talking about engineers with 4 year degrees, he's talking about people with the technical training to operate and maintain factory equipment. You don't get that kind of training in college.
Not in America you don't, that's part of the problem.
You're advocating essentially a "if you build it they will come" mentality.
Of course, you think people are going to train for jobs in factories that don't exist on the hope that once they are trained someone will build factories for them to work in?
While it may work, it's not something a lot of people would bebt tens of billions of dollars on.
Actually it's exactly the kind of thing people would bet tens of billions of dollars on, because that's how it works, that's certainly how the industry thrives in Germany.
That said, Apple could undertake the effort of training people themselves.
And that's what they should do, but of course they get higher profit margins by not doing it, sure they are selling out their country, but hey it's higher profits.
I suspect they'd rather get their products made as soon as possible, however.
Rather as cheaply as possible.
Also, the US has higher industrial output than germany, by a significant margian. It was only recently overtaken by Cina.
No, no they don't. Germany is the one recently knocked off the top by China, the US is in 3rd place.
1 People's Republic of China $1,581,000,000,000
2 Germany $1,337,000,000,000
3 United States $1,289,000,000,000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports
And there are now significant barriers to entry for building new factories. To the extent that it rarely happens anymore.
No there aren't, it's just that it's cheaper to offshore that manufacturing so that's what the shareholders prefer.
You are simply ignoring the simple fact that Americans are still buying Apple products, nevertheless your arguments.
I don't think he's ignoring that, Americans are just buying things made by the chinese.
If the Americans were so concerned with their jobs, they would agree to pay a bit more for Made In USA products.
Except that most things aren't 'Made in USA' anymore not because of consumer price choice but because making them offshore provides the company with better profit margins, just look at the enormous profit margins on Apple gear, they own ~7% of the PC market yet make ~35% of the profit, just google it. They also make the lion's share of the profit in the smartphone market despite having a comparatively small marketshare.
Unfortunately, Zuck can probably find 420k $ between his sofa cushions, so it's not much of a deterrent.
~Syberz
This was addressed in the Steve Jobs biography. When asked why he didn't build factories in the US by Obama, he replied that even if he could get all the permits and stuff sorted out, he wouldn't be able to find 30 thousand or so engineers he'd need to keep the thing running.
Yeah, maybe if your definition of engineer is "someone who assembles an iToy".
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
And there are now significant barriers to entry for building new factories.
And, oh let me guess, it's all the government's fault?
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
1) Office in Hamburg
2) Work with German advertisers
THats two reasons right there.
You are simply ignoring the simple fact that Americans are still buying Apple products, nevertheless your arguments.
If the Americans were so concerned with their jobs, they would agree to pay a bit more for Made In USA products.
But Americans don't get the choice between "made in China" and "made in the USA" iPhones. The problem is that companies have outsourced their manufacturing to China almost wholesale, there isn't anything much a consumer can do about that.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
I have friends who have exactly this plan in mind. One is currently a secondary level science teacher, the other an Eastern Bloc / Asia specialist for a high-class tourism company. They plan on moving to China to teach English. You get paid UK-level wages, but pay China prices for everything. You're effectively a local millionaire.
The downside being that you have to live in China.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
PSS. How do I make the (Enter/Break/Return) - also known as next paragraph here?
Use the P (for paragraph) tag?
Is this a trick question?
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
They fully understand that. They're more interested in having their government openly opposed to personal liberty instead of clandestinely eroding freedoms under flimsy and transparently vacuous premises, and having a very comfortable life of reasonable luxury.
This is why I'm not joining them, as enticing an idea as it is.
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
There are lots of culprits. New development projects are often tied up in litigation for a period of time as local communities oppose them for various reasons. Existing buildings can be difficult to demolish because of historic structures. Comprehensive environmental impact reports must be prepared and show no negative impact or else litigation can completely torpedo the project (and honestly, it's pretty damn hard to build anything with absolutely no environmental impact, you're essentially limited to replacing and upgrading existing facilities). On top of that, getting necessary permits takes time, which delays projects and costs money.
Obviously, if you're in the tech sector, you can't afford to wait years to get these legal considerations worked out.
In China, the government gets on board and promotes new projects. They don't care about negative environmental impacts, destroying historic structures, or what kind of impact a development will have on the local community. While their approach is far from perfect, you have to admit that the US approach does a lot to stifle new development.
Perhaps the US could overcome this if there were some alternative protocol businesses could use to avoid litigation as long as certain standards for environmental/community impact were met and independently reviewed by a government body in a timely fashion. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Thank you Hamburg!
You're listing exports, I'm talking about actual production.
The industrial sector in the US produces 3.2 trillion dollars worth of goods, while in china it's 2.8 (China comes out ahead 4.7 - 3.2 when you're measuring by Purchasing Power Parity rather than a straight currency conversion). Germany does not even produce 1 trillion (your numbers include "re-exports").
Nobody wants to look at my ugly mug anyway.
I used my cat "Wiki" as my avatar until he died and now I'm using "Ixie" for as long as she lasts.
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Facebook unfriends Hamburg...
cpghost at Cordula's Web.
Is everyone in Germany a weird aspie?
The glasses they wear, the fashions, the shoes. Their rules. It seems the most officious place in the world!
What is wrong with Germans?
You're listing exports, I'm talking about actual production.
The industrial sector in the US produces 3.2 trillion dollars worth of goods, while in china it's 2.8 (China comes out ahead 4.7 - 3.2 when you're measuring by Purchasing Power Parity rather than a straight currency conversion). Germany does not even produce 1 trillion (your numbers include "re-exports").
But that's effectively a meaningless comparison because when you compare that to their populations that's accurate in terms of sustainability, the US population is around 310million, whereas the the German population is around 81million. So of course the local industry differential is matched with the population differential, the difference is that Germany has enormous exports for its population, the US has a comparatively tiny amount of exports for its population even though both countries match on population to local industry ratio.
That's just the cost of doing business. Even if one state actually believes they can fine a company in a completely different part of the world, this will not make a dent. It's a token, at most, and not a very good one.
Move sig!