NYPD Dismantling Occupy Wall Street Encampment

First time accepted submitter Red_Chaos1 was the first to write with news that, as of around 06:30 UTC, the NYPD appears to have begun removing the encampment of Occupy Wall Street. At 06:34 UTC the Mayor's office issued a tweet declaring: "Occupants of Zuccotti should temporarily leave and remove tents and tarps. Protesters can return after the park is cleared." Around 07:15 UTC the first of several large dumpsters were deposited and the police began throwing tents and other debris into it. Reports also indicate that a Long Range Acoustic Device is on the premises. The police are using helicopters and physical barriers to prevent news coverage, but the Occupiers are streaming the events (alternative stream; #occupywallstreet on irc.indymedia.org is also rather active for those who don't fancy flash or twitter.) As of 09:15 or so, the situation according to those near NYC is that the park has more or less been cleared.

Comments

Something not quite right

[mwvdlee]

I haven't particularly warm-hearted feelings for the Occupy hipsters, but...

The police are using helicopters and physical barriers to prevent news coverage

Seems a bit excessive and somewhat dubious.

Re:Something not quite right

[GPLHost-Thomas]

You think it's "a bit excessive"? Hell, in what kind of country news coverage is forbidden? Next time I'll hear about critics to China, I'll talk about this event!!!

Re:Something not quite right

[X.25]

I haven't particularly warm-hearted feelings for the Occupy hipsters, but...

The police are using helicopters and physical barriers to prevent news coverage

Seems a bit excessive and somewhat dubious.

Seems like that's happening in China. Or Soviet Russia.

Where is this happening, again?

Re:Something not quite right

[khallow]

In the USA, you can't just protest everywhere.

Recall that your rights should end when they trample on someone else's. I notice that the analogous movement, the Tea Party hasn't had a problem playing within the rules.

Re:Something not quite right

[drinkypoo]

Funny, the last time I looked. That park was private property and they were squatting after they were told to leave.

Funny, the last time I looked, the park was public property, privately owned, which is the entire reason you were in the park. Oddly enough, the first time I ever noticed you making a comment, you were being ignorant. And it's your parent comment that I'm replying to now.

Re:Something not quite right

[silentcoder]

The park is indeed private property - the owners have given their permission and support to Occupy all along. In their frontpage demand that the park be cleared the New York Post even tries to talk around "respecting the rights of the owners to allow the protests" and then declares that the right should be trampled ANYWAY.

Re:Something not quite right

[thryllkill]

"Really? Looks to me like they've made their point. Unfortunately, no one really knows what that point is. All I've gotten from them is 'Wah! Rich people have more than we do!' "

Lots of people got the point. They must have paid attention to the news, or maybe to the signs the protesters are carrying. Just because "you" and the "media" you consume are saying "no one really knows what that point is" doesn't actually mean no ones knows what that point is.

Maybe if you repeat it some more.

Re:Something not quite right

[Riceballsan]

OWS has made dozens of good points, if you actually read the signs, blogs, notes or anything of their movements they have quite a few things that are very specifically called for. End of corporates being considered persons, end to lobyism, allowing taxing on the wealthy, regulation of banks etc... If you look at the actual movement and the actual protestors, you see more or less a 50/50 of people carrying messages, and people trying to draw attention. The problem is the media likes to focus purely on the attention grabbers, and cut out the people with a message, and then make the statement "It seems like they don't have a message to give".

Re:Something not quite right

[apcullen]

I just watched the news conference. I'm wondering what the anonymous coward is smoking? The mayor explicitly said that reporters were kept out of the park "for their own protection". Isn't that interruption of news coverage? How is preventing reporters from filming the various arrests that went on not interruption of news coverage? How is taking people's tents and destroying them in any way legal? And they mayor said that there "may be" some kind of court order from some judge somewhere-- no details at all were provided (maybe they're still shopping around for a judge who can be bought?) -- that might prevent people from returning to the park.

Re:Something not quite right

[dave420]

Their issue is the wealthy are not taxed enough, banks aren't regulated enough, and lobbying tends to keep the powerful powerful and the poor poor. Protesting is not lobbying, and it's either intellectually lazy or dishonest to say it is.

Re:Something not quite right

[SlippyToad]

Also the owners of the park have received tens of millions of dollars of public funds. It is effectively a public park. Like most things the rich think they own, we actually bought it for them.

repeating a tweet: if just, why 1am

[Anonymous Coward]

If this is right and legal and just, why wait until 1am to do it? Why? And why bar press? And why the hell didn't you just leave them alone in the first place, ppl would be like: "ppl in the park, protesting, want something" and then "next". But instead, it's sure to backfire. People want to believe the stuff they were taught in elementary school about freedom, etc. *shrugs*

Re:repeating a tweet: if just, why 1am

[Hazel Bergeron]

The USSR was up front about the limits it put on freedom. The US understood that most people are ignored so it's OK to let them mouth off until they're actually listened to, at which point you abuse and restrict them.

The USSR also had job and housing security and good urban worker treatment. The developing system of internal identity checks and consequent restrictions on movement made it hard for all but the system faithful to gain the best positions in these cities, however. As in the USSR.

Re:repeating a tweet: if just, why 1am

[YesIAmAScript]

The USSR was up front about the limits it put on freedom.

No they weren't, the restrictions were enforced by fear and knocks on the door followed by disappearances. The USSR, much like China today claimed they were open and free. But woe to those who tried to test the limits of that.

Re:repeating a tweet: if just, why 1am

[argStyopa]

Because the goal of the police is to do their job with a minimum of risk to the public and property.

The fact is that the easiest time to do this is the middle of the night. Not just easiest, but safest.

People are more generally compliant if they're woken from a sound sleep. Further, even if they aren't asleep, they're tired, their thinking is muddled, and they are generally low on energy.

Finally, all the 'day-trippers' have gone home. I have no idea of the proportion of hardcore overnighters vs. the ones just coming down each day, but obviously there are going to be far fewer bodies to deal with/object to whatever the police are doing.

Of course, add to this that the street traffic is going to be lower at that time, and and the reduced number of 'innocent' bystanders - really there aren't many reasons NOT to do it at 1am or later.

Barring the press? I don't really believe there's any way to see that except cynically, although perhaps it's justified again by public-safety concerns: if the press were widely covering the event, more likely more people are going to rush downtown to try to stop it.

But to answer your earlier question: why don't they just leave them alone?
As justified as their protests may be, they're simply NOT entitled to occupy private property forever, and do whatever they want there. Personally, if the owner of the property wants them gone, I'd have firehosed them away day one if they refused to move on.

Re:good

[billcopc]

It's true that a bunch of pseudo-hippies are crashing the protests, for douche points or whatever scorekeeping is used in the rapacious subculture, but that does not invalidate the handful of actual protestors that started the movement and continue to stand vigil, nor the effect the moment has had in sensitizing the public to some of the more serious issues plaguing North America.

What's particularly ironic is that the NYPD is imposing censorship and using arguably anti-terrorist techniques and tools to squelch a peaceful protest. As if the NYPD needed any more bad press... The power of the Occupy movement is not so much in its stated message, but in the way the corporations and authorities respond to it. It is bringing much needed attention to these crooked organisations and reminding the everyman that the government and its corporate masters are conspiring against him.

Re:not too surprising

[SuricouRaven]

Do what? Politics isn't working very well - there are two parties and both serve the rich. There aren't the numbers or popular support for a revolution, and historically those things tend to turn out rather poorly anyway. The protestors want to do something, but there just isn't much they can.

Re:This seems to show the government doesn't care

[Ihmhi]

I've noticed that NYC has had the subtle guise of supporting them but selectively enforcing the law. Taking away the generators when it was *really* cold outside because they were a "fire hazard" was one of the standout things that comes to mind. I don't think anyone in the NYC government thought it would last as long as it already has and that these simple actions would break them.

Now that they're dismantling the camps, we'll have to wait and see whether or not the city will actually "let them back in" as they've said they will. Personally I doubt it, but the people who are organizing this thing seem to have their heads on straight.

Honestly, we haven't seen protests on this scale or for this duration since the Vietnam War. The difference is that we're in the age of social media - a time when any citizen can capture National Guard soldiers shooting at unarmed protestors, or police pepper spraying peaceful (but civilly disobedient) people. The city knows that it's walking a very fine line and if they take a misstep they're going to make things far, far worse for them.

I knew this would happen eventually at NYC - this didn't surprise me at all. What *did* surprise me was closing the airspace to news helicopters and shutting down all but 1 subway line as well as a major bridge. *That* honestly frightens me very much. The amazing thing - and one of the reasons I'm so very appreciative to be in my mid-20s during the digital age - is that despite all traditional news media being cut out there's citizen journalists on the ground now recording video and streaming it live to the Internet.

I feel a paradoxically equal amount of pride and revulsion at being an American tonight.

Campers

[soundguy]

No one has ever accomplished a goddamn thing by "camping out". You protest during business hours when you can get people's attention and when media bureaus are active and fully staffed, then you go home, take a shower, and sleep in a warm bed. In the morning, you go back and do it again. Rinse, repeat.

The only attention these knoblickers are attracting by sleeping in a New York park is from the rats and the homeless.

Re:Campers

[shutdown -p now]

More importantly, you protest the authority by defying it, not by obediently going where they tell you to go, and ranting there. They lost the moment they were restricted from, you know, actually occupying Wall Street - and headed over to the park, instead of saying "fuck you, we're gonna stay here".

Of course, this means being tear gassed, beaten up, arrested, and possibly paying a fine or even serving time. That's what civil disobedience is about. And that can actually change things, especially when people around become concerned about why their fellow countrymen are willing to go through such hardship. That's how it worked in Egypt and Tunisia.

Re:4th amendment issue?

[Billly Gates]

No issue. They do not own the land. I spoke with a lady this weekend from the movement and it turned into an argument. Yes, it is public, but there is a reason we have houses. We own them and have no rights under the 4th amendment for property.

It is publically owned, but the public has to vote to let someone use it. they are not 100% of the public as homeless people can not sleep legally at any public place in Las Vegas or Los Angeles. Same principle.

You can be searched because you are breaking the law and you do not own the land. I can bet the mayor did get a judges permit anyway to be clean. A tent is not a home or a dwelling so they can do this.

Re:The occupy movement is getting ridiculous.

[artor3]

So in other words, you're fine with protests so long as they're out of sight, out of mind, and have no hope of actually affecting anything. Got it.

It don't matter what he paints himself with

[SmallFurryCreature]

He is the 1%. The king and his court are hardly going to be advocating for the foundation of a republic are they?

Remember this next time you watch TV or any other media. How many of the people you see in media are making minimum wage or even an average wage.

For that matter, how many here on slashdot do a real days work? Hint, it is 10:30 in holland as I post this. Do you think a factory worker has the same luxury?

I am not the 1%, I am somewhere in the middle but I came from the bottom and know just how much you can expect from the 1% in caring even the tiniest bit about anyone else. Bloomberg can paint himself with a donkey or an elephant, in reality he is filthy rich and cares only for himself.

Re:The occupy movement is getting ridiculous.

[drinkypoo]

. As much as I'm happy to defend the right for people to peacefully protest it seemed to turn into more of a tent slum in the middle of our nice city parks, a park which is for everyones use.

It really stuns me that you don't think that so many people willing to live in a tent slum to make a point, no few of them because it's better than where they're otherwise living which is much the point they're making as letting things continue this way will put all of us in tent slums, points to a problem worse than the mild inconvenience of not being able to play frisbee in one of a town's several (I hope) parks.

While I'm all for their protest, in face of cancelling a major event that is hosted in the park annually I'm glad that our council gave them a move on order.

Fuck your event, and fuck everything else being disrupted by #OWS too. We have serious problems in our society which have made these people feel otherwise disenfranchised, something with which I agree very strongly and which is essentially provable if you examine typical election fraud, who writes legislation, who buys congress, et cetera. The only way to shake people out of their warm cocoons and remind them that there are other people in this country seems to be to inconvenience them. If it takes inconvenience to make you care, then not only are you a poor excuse for a human being, but it proves the validity of these protests.

Re:This seems to show the government doesn't care

[silentcoder]

You know, all their lives people told these kids "go to university, get a degree or the only job you'll get is flipping burgers."
So they went to university, spent a fortune and got in debt, studied and passed. Then they finished and tried to find work.
Now you call them "entitled" because they don't want to flip burgers.

Re:The occupy movement is getting ridiculous.

[DarkOx]

Fuck your event, and fuck everything else being disrupted by #OWS too. We have serious problems in our society which have made these people feel otherwise disenfranchised...

So you are angry that so many people are disenfranchised and you turn around and say "Fuck your event" to someone who has just as much right to use that park as you and the OWS protestors do.

This is the real problem with the OWS movement. For every one person in it who is honestly concerned that something has perverted, "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" There are 10 people who really just feel cheated, entitled, and angry but have no problem turning around and abusing others the very same ways they think they have been abused.

Re:Waste of Time

[PopeRatzo]

Because most Americans are actually pretty OK with everything he did and don't actually consider it as wrong.

I'm pretty sure that's not true.

Re:good

[PaladinAlpha]

Yeah, I can tell you're doing pretty bad; in your posting history you discuss your thousands of dollars worth of lenses and thousands of dollars worth of cameras, your $600 superphone, your recent relocation to Orange County, and conveniently failed to mention that your "BS and MS science degrees" are in geology, which was never a job field with any demand and therefore is irrelevant to the discussion of job availability.

Look, you seem like a nice guy. But what you're doing here is misrepresentation. When you use dishonesty to support a group, it makes the whole group look bad. Think about it.

Re:Waste of Time

[Hatta]

Is that really the tack you want to take? It's not that the American people are ignorant, it's that they are actually complicit in the war crimes of their leaders?

Re:The occupy movement is getting ridiculous.

[Hatta]

Inequality isn't going away just because you're tired of the protesters. If you want the protesters to go away, work with them to end inequality. If all you want is for them to shut up and go away, well that's what the 1% want too.

If you actually have some suggestions on how to better address inequality, everyone would love to hear them.

Re:This seems to show the government doesn't care

[silentcoder]

The definition of value you use is exactly the one that capitalism uses. But value is sometimes more complex than that. The most valuable paintings in the world was made by a guy who in his entire life managed to sell ONE of them, to his own brother, for about the price of a loaf of bread.
In the case of the arts (and sciences like philosophy) they have little capitalist percieved value because their output isn't really monetary. How do you put a price on an idea ?

But philosophers are the reason we have CONCEPTS like capitalism or socialism at all. They are the creators of our very ABILITY to have social discourse. How do you reward that ?

Poets (and their relatives like musicians - the vast majority who are not billionaires) are the expressions of our deepest desires, feelings, and "souls" (in a non-metaphysical sense).

These things have value beyond measure, societies that treated them well were longer lived, more stable, more peaceful and wealthier. Societies that didn't have consistently declined.

But how the hell do you work out what people will pay for that ? In fact the majority of people have no concept of the value of this (when last was a nobel-prize winning poet on the New York Times best-seller list ?)
Capitalism defines "value" as "what people are willing to pay" and with that extremely narrow definition - supply and demand works great, but when you consider the value of things like arts, philosophy and social discourse the glaringly obvious truth is that the definition is woefully inadequate.
They adjusted their definition to fit the limitations of their theory - they did not design their theory to fit the reality of a more plausible definition.