Slashdot Mirror


Bradley Manning's Court Date Finally Set

bs0d3 writes "Bradley Manning has finally been scheduled for a day in court. On December 16, he will have an Article 32 hearing (military pre-trial). Private Manning has been in jail for one and half years. The Article 32 hearing will begin at Fort Meade, Maryland. The primary purpose of the hearing is to evaluate the relative strengths and weaknesses of the government's case, as well as to provide the defense with an opportunity to obtain pretrial discovery. Further trial dates and locations are still unknown."

132 of 523 comments (clear)

  1. spin. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The primary purpose of the hearing is to instill fear into anyone else who might have access to sensitive information the public might want to know.

    1. Re:spin. by LordLimecat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Spin is when someone takes a military personel's violation of his oaths and betrayal of trust as something that should be ignored or lauded. Of course the public wants to know military secrets, that doesnt make it any less against the law, and any less deserving of a military trial.

      Mod me down, but ask yourself this-- if this were 1863, and manning has spilled military secrets to the papers, do you think
      A) he would have been given a medal
      B) he would have languished in a cell until after the war was over, given a trial, and hung as a traitor?

      This is neither new, nor surprising. When you get cleared to handle sensitive information, and when you are in the military no less, violating that trust has really serious implications.

    2. Re:spin. by Nadaka · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bradley Manning is a true American patriot and hero for exposing the malignant corruption infesting and perverting the great American ideal.

    3. Re:spin. by jkauzlar · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I wonder if the treatment he received in prison will play into the trial at all? I agree he should of course be punished, as the law is the law, but let's not forget these leaks were a catalyst for the Tunisian uprising, which lead to the revolts in Egypt and Libya, which is leading to the ongoing riots in Syria, etc. Some would argue the Arab Spring was furthermore a catalyst for OWS and the earlier protests in Wisconsin.

      Of course, by the looks of it, he leaked everything he could get his hands on and so had no particular motive in mind except to undermine the classification system, but wittingly or not, the man's a hero. I wish him the best of luck.

    4. Re:spin. by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 4, Informative

      What crimes exactly? Look a few posts below for one example.

      http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2537478&cid=38128690

      In a nutshell, US troops executed at least 10 civilians and then called in an airstrike to destroy the evidence.

      --
      :(){ :|:& };:
    5. Re:spin. by apcullen · · Score: 2

      sorry, but what information was that exactly? I still don't get what wrongdoing he was trying to expose. All the thousands of documents, and yeah, there was some embarrassing stuff there, but nothing that shouted "My God! The public needs to know about this!"

    6. Re:spin. by Spectre · · Score: 2

      There were plenty of cover-ups in those documents that needed to be exposed.

      Here's one: http://www.salon.com/2011/10/23/wikileaks_cables_and_the_iraq_war/singleton/

      --
      "Flame away, I wear asbestos underwear"
    7. Re:spin. by The+Creator · · Score: 5, Insightful

      violation of his oaths

      Against all enemies, foreign and domestic

      How would you interpret the bolded part? Do you think it means unconditional loyalty even when the state begins to commit atrocities?

      --

      FRA: STFU GTFO
    8. Re:spin. by apcullen · · Score: 2
      From the Salon article:

      this incident had been previously documented by the U.N. special rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions...

      The article seems to say that the wikileaks document just brought these allegations back into everyone's mind. So again, embarrassing, but not a smoking gun proving that this was true or revealing something unknown. I can't see anything good that came out of Manning's action. Given that he just dumped everything he could onto wikileaks, rather than just documents that revealed something in particular that he was concerned about, I wonder what motivated him to do this at all.

    9. Re:spin. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Obviously you do not understand the Oath. It is each soldiers right, duty and obligation to determine that for himself.

      That's why "just following orders" is not a valid defense.

    10. Re:spin. by martin-boundary · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What makes 1863 such a good time for comparison? Social norms evolve over time. In 1863, women didn't have the right to vote, and one hundred years later blacks still didn't have equal civil rights. What might have gotten a death penalty or even a simple shot in the back yard without trial response in those days is no longer acceptable today. Should Manning be crucified today, because it was good enough for Jesus back in Roman times?

    11. Re:spin. by unity100 · · Score: 2, Informative

      cia kidnapping people from in the middle of europe and torturing them in syria ? sufficient for you ?

    12. Re:spin. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      as far as I know, he hasn't been convicted which means the year and a half of torture and psychological abuse should be enough to throw the case out. Not to mention your president on public camera claiming you're guilty when you haven't even gone to trial... the US gov't should release him to show it still trusts and respects its people, but obviously it does not, and it is our enemy of free speech.

    13. Re:spin. by liquidweaver · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How do you know he violated his oaths?

      Oh shit, yeah - that's what a trial is for - my bad.

      --
      mov ah, 4ch
      int 21h
    14. Re:spin. by Java+Pimp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Neither is releasing 100K classified documents just because maybe there might be something in there that might be incriminating. If you got specific evidence of something illegal there are proper ways to handle that. Publishing hundreds of thousands of basically unrelated secrets because someone might find something not so nice in there is not a soldier's right, duty and obligation.

      --
      Ascalante: Your bride is over 3,000 years old.
      Kull: She told me she was 19!
    15. Re:spin. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually as someone who took the oath you are incorrect, the highlighted part is correct, but your logic is flawed.

      As a soldier you are required all LAWFUL orders, meaning that the government itself can be an enemy, therefore you it is not just who the government choses to be enemies, it can be the government itself you must sometimes fight.

    16. Re:spin. by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 5, Informative

      Not exactly:

      I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

      Later, of course, you swear loyalty to the President, your officers, UCMJ, etc., but I suppose one could argue that since this part of the oath comes first, if there is a conflict between the former and the latter, this part would be more pertinent.

      --
      SSC
    17. Re:spin. by GameboyRMH · · Score: 5, Informative
      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    18. Re:spin. by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      To LordStrawcat

      You're the only person so far who mentioned Collateral Murder. Someone else mentioned the summary execution of Iraqi women and children by US troops who then called in an airstrike to destroy the evidence. Another pointed out that we were pimping young boys to Afghani police recruits (it's called "bacha bazi", literally "boy play")

      --
      :(){ :|:& };:
    19. Re:spin. by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 4, Funny

      "Against all enemies, foreign and domestic

      I just bolded a few letters ;-)

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    20. Re:spin. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      there are proper ways to handle that

      such as?

      you might want to read this chatlog of him that was leaked. he tried to go through proper channels, nobody listened.

    21. Re:spin. by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      So you want Manning punished for publishing classified info.

      Do you want those who improperly classified info to be punished, as well? For had such info not been classified in the first place, Manning might not have been motivated to release everything.

      --
      :(){ :|:& };:
    22. Re:spin. by LordLimecat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And yet there remains a chain of command. Manning can take a risk and go by his own morality, thats true; but to expect the military not to try him in a military court is absolutely insane. A huge part of letting this whole thing work is the fact that their remains consequences if you choose to defy orders for what you see to be the greater good (otherwise, you could never try a soldier for anything, ever).

      And Im still a little fuzzy on what specific atrocities were unveiled by the diplomatic cables that he leaked; care to clear that up?

    23. Re:spin. by LordLimecat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So you want Manning punished for publishing classified info.

      I think thats what we're saying, yes.

      Do you want those who improperly classified info to be punished, as well?

      As that is neither a violation of oaths, nor military code, nor US law, I think the appropriate response is to determine who is at fault and hold them accountable through the normal democratic process.

    24. Re:spin. by Java+Pimp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What specific criminal activity was he trying to expose before he released those documents? Were all 100k classified documents supporting that specific criminal activity? How much of those secrets had nothing to do with the specific criminal activity?

      If you have evidence of a specific crime, the whistleblower act might protect you somewhat for only that evidence. (IANAL). However, if you just decide to release a bunch of classified documents because you are pissed off at the government and you think there might be something in there to give them a black eye, well, you're on your own.

      --
      Ascalante: Your bride is over 3,000 years old.
      Kull: She told me she was 19!
    25. Re:spin. by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      Its what hes accused of, and what people are defending him for. If youre arguing "if acquitted, Manning should be freed", I would wholeheartedly agree with you.

    26. Re:spin. by couchslug · · Score: 2

      The US wasn't built or expanded on ideals, but by war and conquest and political maneuvering. Any contention otherwise is a deliberate lie.

      If everyone stuck to their ideals they'd be as dead as the insane Nazarene carpenter who thought he was god.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    27. Re:spin. by Catbeller · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In 1863, he would have been instructed to kill runaway negroes and peaceful Indian villages. The past is not a moral high ground. If he had refused either one of those orders he would have been whipped and/or executed.

      His primary oath was to the Constitution of the United States of America, not to his superiors. If your superiors refuse to act on evidence of murder, and the chain of command knows damned well there was a murder, than what can you do? You can: 1) shut up, as three million others with the same clearance did, or 2) obey your oath to the people and the Constitution and expose the murderers and their abettor who are hiding behind the cloak of secrecy which was not intended for hiding criminals. Your choice.

      So who, exactly, are going to bring those who committed murder while representing us, and those who hid it, even with clear evidence, to their hangings?

    28. Re:spin. by Taty'sEyes · · Score: 4, Informative

      The reason the Constitution part comes first is because it is the foundation of the law. The orders you swear to obey, must be legal under the Constitution. If the order is illegal, you must NOT OBEY it.

      --
      We show geeks how to get their dream girl at EyesOfOdessa.com
    29. Re:spin. by Catbeller · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes. Read. You can google it. You can even watch the video, as it was released long ago by Wikileaks. He found evidence of US soldiers murdering a crowd - on camera. He tried for very long to get anyone in the chain of command to care. They did not. He did what he thought necessary when your command is hiding murders - he leaked it. You will refuse to look, as will his prosecutors and judges. This is a travesty.

    30. Re:spin. by Pseudonym · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As that is neither a violation of oaths, nor military code, nor US law, I think the appropriate response is to determine who is at fault and hold them accountable through the normal democratic process.

      The "normal democratic process", in this case, seems to be that nobody is condemned or punished for exercising an power which exceeds constitutional authority if the other side of politics might like to use that power themselves.

      While all of the options for institutional recourse haven't yet been exhausted in this case, there are plenty of recent examples where they have been exhausted and essentially nobody was held accountable. Nobody, for example, will do hard time for the torture of prisoners. My hopes aren't high.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    31. Re:spin. by cmdr_tofu · · Score: 2

      It is my understanding he found considerable evidence of abuse of power.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiLeaks#Leaks

      Someone who violates trust to expose illegal behavior is indeed breaking the rules, but to expose a bigger rulebreaker. The question that I think is relevant, is specifically, "Are the crimes that Manning exposed greater than the crime he commit?" If so, he should be exonerated.

    32. Re:spin. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Your missing a bit of the line which makes it much more clear

      I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic

      The oath isn't to protect the government it is to protect the constitution... who exactly do you think the domestic enemies of the constitution are?

    33. Re:spin. by the+linux+geek · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's expected that if a soldier determines that his orders are illegal, he'll face a court-martial to prove it. A junior enlisted man can't just say "No, Captain, I don't want to do that," and expect "Hmm. Okay. I'll ask someone else." as a response.

    34. Re:spin. by Nursie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      IMHO - routine classification of banal data.

      Governments (including the military) should not be hiding things from their people as a matter of course. It adds to the general picture of subterfuge and malice against their own people.

    35. Re:spin. by LordLimecat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Rather than railing about modding conspiracies and whatnot, can someone please give a specific, google-able example of what we were supposed to see in the leaks?

      Thats really all I was asking for. I have no vested interest in government corruption being hidden; I simply think that 90% of the people on slashdot are unable to simply let facts speak for themselves and instead have to resort to hyperbole, massive spin, and tenuous accusations to prove their point, reality be damned.

      Just a heads up, since this seems to bug you so much-- every time someone leaps to accuse the US government of something, and then it turns out their claim was 90% bullshit, all further such claims have their credibilty hurt. Years of seeing this crap on slashdot have made me realize that as messed up as the government might be, its still a sure thing that most of the accusations leveled against it are bogus and perpetrated by people who have an axe to grind and dont really care if reality is more nuanced than "government is bad" or "leaks are good".

    36. Re:spin. by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      You know, myself, I would have reserved the word "atrocity" for "jewish holocaust" or "rape of nanking"; Im not really sure that "classifying data that Nursie thinks should be public" really fits that category.

      If that is really all people were accusing the gov't of, they could have said so, and I simply would never have posted-- because I agree.

    37. Re:spin. by C0R1D4N · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When the US isn't divulging that information to the public, it is an issue yes.

    38. Re:spin. by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      Regardless of whatever else he found, he released 24,000 unrelated diplomatic wires that had nothing to do with any atrocities and basically just served to piss a ton of countries off and hurt relations with most of them.

      Specifically, Im still wondering why he released cables about Tsvingarai's discussions with the US. What atrocities were going on there that needed released?

      As for that mass murder, are you speaking of "collateral murder"? Because that wasnt a "mass murder", it was 2 reporters that were mis-identified (as can be confirmed by the soldier's chatter). If its NOT "collateral murder", then I have no idea what youre talking about, as noone seems to want to give a link, a date, a location, or anything else, and the wikipedia article on "mass murders" has nothing.

      So please, enlighten me.

    39. Re:spin. by anagama · · Score: 4, Informative

      Here's a cite for you Mr. Head-in-the-Sand:

      That cable was released by WikiLeaks in May, 2011, and, as McClatchy put it at the time, "provides evidence that U.S. troops executed at least 10 Iraqi civilians, including a woman in her 70s and a 5-month-old infant, then called in an airstrike to destroy the evidence, during a controversial 2006 incident in the central Iraqi town of Ishaqi." The U.S. then lied and claimed the civilians were killed by the airstrike.

      http://www.salon.com/2011/10/23/wikileaks_cables_and_the_iraq_war/singleton/

      Sounds leak worthy to me.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    40. Re:spin. by anagama · · Score: 3, Informative

      Your definition of "not troubling" is pretty fucking evil:

      That cable was released by WikiLeaks in May, 2011, and, as McClatchy put it at the time, "provides evidence that U.S. troops executed at least 10 Iraqi civilians, including a woman in her 70s and a 5-month-old infant, then called in an airstrike to destroy the evidence, during a controversial 2006 incident in the central Iraqi town of Ishaqi." The U.S. then lied and claimed the civilians were killed by the airstrike.

      http://www.salon.com/2011/10/23/wikileaks_cables_and_the_iraq_war/singleton/

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    41. Re:spin. by rtb61 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It is if just one document demonstrates evidence of criminal malfeasance that was being ignored. Apparently there were many more documents that demonstrated criminality and collusions to hide and commit more crimes.

      That the administration that purposefully hid existing and ongoing crimes was all to self evident. What is even worse is after the legitimate release of those documents and the evidence of criminal activity they disclose, virtually nothing has been done to prosecute those individuals breaking laws.

      The person who released those documents is entitled to make claim that they were adhering to the principle of law and the requirements of their oath to ensure justice was pursued. No one is ever a slave to the criminality of the temporary supervisor, every individual is always bound by their own sense of justice and morality.

      Also it is abundantly clear in this case that the US military did purposefully and wilfully deny Bradley Manning his rights as a citizen, did knowingly and with intent physically and mentally abuse him in order to criminally extend the case against others and made only token attempts to adhere to the law months after the arrest and detention of Bradley Manning during which time they attempted to manufacture a case. Based apparently on the unsubstantiated betrayal of "Wired Magazine" whose focus was on profits not justice and Adrian Lamo and known criminal employed by "Wired Magazine" for dubious reasons.

      So was Wired Magazine involved in a for profit attempt at entrapment. Did Adrian Lamo himself actual conspire to obtain and release the records (already having a record for criminal computer hacking. Did "Wired Magazine" and Adrian Lamo conspire to shift the charges from themselves to Brian Manning. So was Wired Magazine the betrayer of the worst order or did they collude in criminal activity and then seek to shift the blame to a pasty, either way "Wired" sucks ass' let them know what you think of them http://www.wired.com/about/feedback/.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    42. Re:spin. by mgf64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The other leaks are about torture, execution of civilians (I find the distinction between citizens and non citizens disgusting but yes, US citizens as well) without due process, involvement of the US in interference with due process and democratic processes of allies (in cases regarding mass murder and war crimes in which the US were involved), trying to rig justice, knowing (and condoning) pollution of poor countries in Africa (the kind of pollution which causes death), corruption, condoning of corruption, small things such as sexual child abuse during "peace operations" and "exporting democracy". Why did they decide to classify instead of PROSECUTE THE GUILTY?

    43. Re:spin. by rwhamann · · Score: 2

      I am a retired military officer, and yes, within the confines of the information available to them, even the lowest ranking military member needs to make legal judgments. In most cases they should listen to those appointed above them, but they are always responsible to avoid criminal activity.

      --
      seg fault
    44. Re:spin. by vux984 · · Score: 3

      Youre acting like I have an interest in not knowing these things.

      If you were interested, you could have done your own trivial amount of research.

      Why couldnt someone have come out 10 posts ago and just linked to an article like that or simply said "Ishaqi incident"?

      Because usually when someone on slashdot makes a big deal about there not being any credible specific information about things which are TRIVIAL to find out for oneself it means that someone has no interest in actually knowing the truth.

      I mean, i googled wikileaks atrocities, and the execution mentioned above was the first fucking result. If you are really so interested in the truth... perhaps try looking for it.

  2. Honer him! by dbasch · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Give his hero ass a medal!

    1. Re:Honer him! by anagama · · Score: 4, Insightful
      A peace prize is in order if indeed Manning is the leaker. Without the released cables, Obama would have been able to convince Iraq that our troops should have stayed longer. Because of the leaks, Obama failed in his warmongering:

      That cable was released by WikiLeaks in May, 2011, and, as McClatchy put it at the time, âoeprovides evidence that U.S. troops executed at least 10 Iraqi civilians, including a woman in her 70s and a 5-month-old infant, then called in an airstrike to destroy the evidence, during a controversial 2006 incident in the central Iraqi town of Ishaqi.â The U.S. then lied and claimed the civilians were killed by the airstrike. Although this incident had been previously documented by the U.N. special rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, the high-profile release of the cable by WikiLeaks generated substantial attention (and disgust) in Iraq, which made it politically unpalatable for the Iraqi government to grant the legal immunity the Obama adminstration was seeking. Indeed, it was widely reported at the time the cable was released that it made it much more difficult for Iraq to allow U.S. troops to remain beyond the deadline under any conditions.

      In other words, whoever leaked that cable cast light on a heinous American war crime and, by doing so, likely played some significant role in thwarting an agreement between the Obama and Maliki governments to keep U.S. troops in Iraq and thus helped end this stage of the Iraq war

      http://www.salon.com/2011/10/23/wikileaks_cables_and_the_iraq_war/singleton/

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    2. Re:Honer him! by anagama · · Score: 2

      And you're a tard if you think evidence of atrocities committed by US Troops had no impact on the Iraqi government or the feelings of the populace.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
  3. About fucking time by Aryden · · Score: 4, Insightful

    cause being held without due process is full of awesome in this country.

    1. Re:About fucking time by artor3 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm actually curious about this. Normally, the defendant can assert their right to a speedy trial, and at that point the prosecution has to take the case to court within a short window (like a month or something). Has it taken this long because Mr. Manning has been getting his own ducks in a row before the trial? Or does the military not guarantee the right to a speedy trial? If it's the latter, what's to stop them from just locking someone up and throwing away the key by never actually going to court? The military justice code can't possibly be that fucked up.... can it?

    2. Re:About fucking time by Aryden · · Score: 5, Informative

      Until a jury says he is guilty, he's fucking presumed innocent.

    3. Re:About fucking time by Scutter · · Score: 2

      It's usually (not always) a defense tactic. Delay, delay, delay. Delay as long as possible.

      --

      "Tell me doctor, with all of your defenses, are there any provisions for an attack by killer bees?"
    4. Re:About fucking time by dkleinsc · · Score: 5, Interesting

      cause being held without due process for 18 months under conditions that are considered torture by international observers is full of awesome in this country.

      You're right, you just didn't quite make the point strongly enough.

      One interesting question is whether the treatment of Bradley Manning is better or worse than the treatment of Yaser Hamdi, a US citizen imprisoned for 3 years and then (once the US Supreme Court said that was not OK) deported to Saudi Arabia, all without having been charged with a crime, much less convicted of one.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    5. Re:About fucking time by RingDev · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In the civilian world, yes. In the military world, he could stand before a general, or a tribunal, or a jury of his peers, which is to say, a bunch of active duty military guys who have been told over and over for the last year that this guy is evil.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    6. Re:About fucking time by skine · · Score: 2

      The military justice code can't possibly be that fucked up.... can it?

      You have heard about the Guantanimo Bay prison and the PATRIOT Act, right?

    7. Re:About fucking time by Smallpond · · Score: 2

      "Mr Manning has also been charged with "aiding the enemy", a charge that could carry the death penalty."

      Would you want a speedy trial in that case? I would like to see the government's definition of "the enemy" that was aided by this. The chief beneficiaries seem to have been news organizations.

    8. Re:About fucking time by Aryden · · Score: 4, Informative

      Having been active duty military, you are obliged to enter into any criminal proceedings, as a member (juror), with impartiality the same as in the civilian world.

      People are under the impression that the UCMJ is some oddball, ignores the constitution document. It isn't. The rules make less sense to civilians ,and it is harsher than the average civvy law, but it's also quite fair.

    9. Re:About fucking time by Aryden · · Score: 2, Insightful

      He was held as a prisoner of war / enemy combatant. He was not afforded the rights dictated by the constitution. The UCMJ treats him as a POW and revokes those rights that would otherwise apply to normal military personnel.

    10. Re:About fucking time by NetNinja · · Score: 2

      He is in the military court system. Been a part of it and cases usually take 1 to 2 years to even start to process. I love when people mouth off about speedy trials, they don't even have a remote clue as to how it works in the military.
      He had access to sensitive information. he became some sort of conscientious objector.
      When you serve in areas where top secret correspondences are being passed arround, just because you have a top secret clearence doesn't give you the right to read the communications. he barely left his whatever small town and now he has a top secret clearence and now he decides that the world is an ugly place and he is going to do something about it. As yoda said 'Ahh the inocence of a child" unfortunately what he did could have caused more damage than good. I suppose everyone wants him to run for the President of the U.S. because we all know his worldy experience and bleeding heart innocense will keep the world safe and secure. Stupid child.

    11. Re:About fucking time by ArcherB · · Score: 3, Informative

      In the civilian world, yes. In the military world, he could stand before a general, or a tribunal, or a jury of his peers, which is to say, a bunch of active duty military guys who have been told over and over for the last year that this guy is evil.

      -Rick

      Juries under the UCMJ are almost always high raking officers and NCO's. It's not a jury of your peers. You may request enlisted, but you'll probably end up with Master SGT and above.

      Note: I was on "Class-A Duty" right before my ETS, meaning I had to do all the details that required the green monkey suit. This included parade detail, charity poker night for the wives of generals, soldier of the month board (I won) and bailiff at court marshals. In the court marshal where I was a bailiff, the lowest ranking enlisted member of the jury was a SGT Major. The lowest ranking officer was a full bird colonel. Every one of those bastards stepped on my highly polished shoes on their way out of the jury box into the deliberation room as I was holding the door.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    12. Re:About fucking time by Aryden · · Score: 2

      You must have been a Marine, because in the Army, they taught us not to put our feet in other people's paths... ;)

    13. Re:About fucking time by Hentai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If the alternative was being held naked in a jail cell with no access to books, internet, human conversation, or anything other than standing at attention and sleeping?

      Yes, I think I'd rather they take me behind the tool shed already.

      --
      -Hentai [in vita non pacem est]
    14. Re:About fucking time by kiwimate · · Score: 2

      conditions that are considered torture

      Link please? I kept reading comments back in the original stories here on /. about all the torture, and they all seemed to revolve around the supposed sleep deprivation. Everything I read said quite clearly that he was allowed uninterrupted sleep throughout the night (between the hours of 11:00 pm and 6:00 am, or something like that).

    15. Re:About fucking time by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 5, Informative

      He was not afforded the rights dictated by the constitution. He was not afforded the rights dictated by the constitution

      Those rights are human rights which are protected by the Constitution, not granted by it. US jurisprudence does not recognize the right of a person to contract away human rights (e.g. you can't sell yourself into slavery).

      The UCMJ is subordinate to the Constitution, so Manning's constitutional rights still exist. It seems they've been infringed.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    16. Re:About fucking time by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      [Citation needed]

      Last I heard the official toll of people killed by Wikileaks was 0. If anyone had been killed as a result I'd think it would be headline news that I'd notice. Got a source?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    17. Re:About fucking time by DesScorp · · Score: 2

      He was not afforded the rights dictated by the constitution. He was not afforded the rights dictated by the constitution

      Those rights are human rights which are protected by the Constitution, not granted by it. US jurisprudence does not recognize the right of a person to contract away human rights (e.g. you can't sell yourself into slavery).

      The UCMJ is subordinate to the Constitution, so Manning's constitutional rights still exist. It seems they've been infringed.

      When you join the military, you take yourself outside of US civil law. The military is its own world, which is why it has its own judicial system. When you sign those enlistment papers, you limit your rights. You're beholden to the United States Government in a manner similar to the old indentured servitude role for the duration of your enlistment. You're told this upfront when you enlist. Courts have upheld this practice throughout the entire history of the country. If you have a problem with that, then don't enlist. But Manning knew what the rules were, and he flaunted them. And now he's paying the price.

      --
      Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    18. Re:About fucking time by dkleinsc · · Score: 3, Informative

      Here's the UN report. It should be pointed out that the UN investigator had to make this report without unmonitored access to Manning because the US government refused 'unfettered' access, which is what the UN expects of all cooperating states.

      Here's a Welsh MP expressing her concern about Manning's treatment, particularly relevant because Manning is apparently a Welsh citizen in addition to being a US citizen.

      Here's Amnesty International.

      If you haven't noticed that there's at least a serious question regarding whether Manning's been tortured, you've probably been limiting yourself to mainstream US media.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  4. He's still better off than Assange by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Funny

    At least the charges against him are real.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:He's still better off than Assange by orphiuchus · · Score: 2

      Couldn't the same be said about individuals who start national socialist and eugenics enthusiast sites?

  5. U.S.Awesome! by sgt+scrub · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In the U.S a 1.5 year prison sentence is just part of a speedy trial.

    --
    Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
  6. Idealy Idealist by gx5000 · · Score: 2

    Poor fool.... When you sign up you're supposed to understand what you're joining.

    --
    End of Line.
    1. Re:Idealy Idealist by orphiuchus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And when you get a clearance they make goddamn sure that you understand what happens if you misuse it.

  7. Good Luck by RobinEggs · · Score: 5, Funny

    And since it's a military trial, he pretty much has to prove not only that he's innocent beyond a shadow of a doubt but further prove who actually did do it. He also has to prove cold fusion using only a pack of gum, a microwave oven, and the complete MacGyver dvd box set.

    I'm being facetious, of course, but US military justice isn't famous for its fairness or friendliness to the accused. Just thought people should be aware that he's pretty much screwed whether or not there's any conspiracy to get him convicted.

    1. Re:Good Luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Having been a military paralegal, I have to say that the military actually offers many protections that civillian courts do not. Think of the article 32 hearing as a grand jury, but instead of the prosecutor running the show, the accused can actually bring evidence on his own behalf, has full representation by council, and the prosecution must give the defense all the evidence they will use. Full discovery rules apply here, not just at trial.

  8. The Sixth Amendment called... by gman003 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I shudder to think of a world where "one and a half years" qualifies as "speedy". Or have we forgotten the Bill of Rights?

    In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

    I know the government isn't the swiftest thing in the world, but I don't believe it's that slow. And I'm not sure courts martial qualify as "criminal" prosecutions. But I do know that if I were PFC Manning's lawyer, I'd definitely be bringing that up.

    1. Re:The Sixth Amendment called... by Aryden · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Court martial is very much a criminal prosecution. They got away with avoiding the 6th amendment by not filing charges against him until they felt like it. he's been kept as a prisoner of war for 1.5 years so that they could circumvent the rest of the constitution and federal laws.

    2. Re:The Sixth Amendment called... by oracleguy01 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Your assuming he tried to assert that right and was denied. The defendant doesn't have to assert that right if they don't want to. For all we know the defense has been getting their ducks in a row and have been using the extra time.

    3. Re:The Sixth Amendment called... by RingDev · · Score: 2

      by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed

      There's one rub - He commited his crime in Iraq.

      Thus the reason this is a military trial, not a civilian court trial. He enjoys the rights provided by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which differ significantly from the Bill of Rights.

      That is to say... he's screwed.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    4. Re:The Sixth Amendment called... by Aryden · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, it doesn't matter where the crime is committed, you are first and foremost covered by the UCMJ then any applicable civil laws. Usually, the military will defer prosecution until local/state/federal trials have run their course, THEN they will try you under the UCMJ.

    5. Re:The Sixth Amendment called... by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've seen you claim this POW thing elsewhere in comments. Got any evidence to support this?

      Because the UCMJ Article 10 also promises a speedy trial. In fact, the courts have found that Article 10's Speedy Trial is more exacting than the Sixth Amendment.

      United States v. Thompson, 68 M.J. 308 (when a servicemember is placed in pretrial confinement, Article 10, UCMJ, provides that immediate steps shall be taken to inform the accused of the charges and to either bring the accused to trial or dismiss the charges; Article 10 creates a more exacting speedy trial demand than does the Sixth Amendment).

      --
      :(){ :|:& };:
  9. Re:Leaking Secret documents... not OK by Hatta · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Some things are secret for good reason. Very little in what Manning released had any reason to be secret. On the whole, the country is better off having this information public than not.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  10. That's not the only thing by Quila · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I may have some sympathy if he knew of specific illegal acts and divulged the information about those acts in order to bring about justice.

    But that's not what he did. He just released a huge amount of classified information, some of which could get people killed.

    1. Re:That's not the only thing by del_diablo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I keep hearing people saying that. Can you at the least link me to a news story about some squad of soliders that has gotten killed DIRECTLY because of the leaks?

    2. Re:That's not the only thing by LanMan04 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But that's not what he did. He just released a huge amount of classified information, some of which could get people killed.>/b>

      [Citation Needed]

      --
      With the first link, the chain is forged.
    3. Re:That's not the only thing by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 5, Insightful

      some of which could get people killed.

      That sounds an awful lot like the argument used by the government during the pentagon papers trial (New York Times Co. vs. United States). How about showing us the innocent civilians, human rights activists, informants, etc. who have been killed as a result of the leaks?

      Meanwhile, Reuters has the video that shows its journalists being killed by a US helicopter strike. The people of the United States have been given a glance at their government's activities, which includes information on the enormous intelligence power that the DEA has amassed. In the middle east, the documents were a catalyst for revolutions that ousted tyrants from power.

      Manning broke the law, and it is hard to feel sympathy for someone who knew the danger and chose to leak the documents and videos anyway. However, the leak has been a boon for democracy and a reminder that the US government keeps far too much information secret.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
  11. Re:Leaking Secret documents... not OK by Larryish · · Score: 2

    Reporting murder of civilians... not O.K.?

    Wait, what?!

  12. Re:Leaking Secret documents... not OK by Nidi62 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Some things are secret for good reason. Very little in what Manning released had any reason to be secret. On the whole, the country is better off having this information public than not.

    Except, as a private in the US military, that was not Bradley Manning's job or duty to decide. 1 person never has the right to make a decision like that, especially one that had the possibility of costing other people their lives (Notice I said possibility, not did) And there was no way he could have known what was in those thousands of documents. If he did, then he was spending all his time reading them instead of his job, in which case he is still guilty of dereliction of duty. He is already guilty of accessing documents without authorization. These 2 charges alone probably merit forfeiture of pay and rank, as well as several years imprisonment and a dishonorable discharge. And he is probably lucky that he is being tried at court martial. Besides being supplied legal counsel that is an officer (and therefore bound by oath to the law, oath as an officer, and by honor to do the best job they can) and more than likely working solely on this case, a defendant in court martial can also bring in civilian counsel and assistance. Especially in a high profile case like this, his right are probably more protected in a court martial than in a civilian court.

    --
    The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
  13. Re:Leaking Secret documents... not OK by Sedated2000 · · Score: 2

    Did anyone else read the Manning/Lamo chat logs? After reading them you get a very different picture of Manning (and Lamo). In my view, Manning was revealed to be a troubled and hurt kid with really strong gender identity issues. He even expressed worry to Lamo that if he was caught, he'd be referred to as "He" instead of "Her". He had anger problems stemming from his confusion and a fight he had that ended in him being demoted (he punched a co-worker). He was definitely not stable and I just don't believe he released this stuff out any desire to serve the "common good". He simply made a grab for as many files as he could get, never actually reviewing them himself.

    Lamo came across as a selfish user, begging Manning to sponsor him so he can have a .mil account, even during the times when Manning was trying to share his worries with him. Clearly Lamo just egged him on, and he probably knew he was going to turn this all over in the end. If you haven't read them, you might find them informative.

    http://http//www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/07/manning-lamo-logs/

  14. Re:Leaking Secret documents... not OK by Nadaka · · Score: 3, Informative

    Loose lips also reveal war crimes.

    He did violate his oath. And perhaps he should face the death penalty.

    But his defiance of criminal acts suppressed through secrecy in spite of the risk also makes him an American patriot and hero.

    And the illegal treatment he has received, that as circumvented the lawful process of justice is also a reprehensible failure of the system and an act of treason against the United States of America.

  15. That's not how the law works. by mosb1000 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Of course the public wants to know military secrets, that doesnt make it any less against the law, and any less deserving of a military trial.

    Yes it does. Laws are written around public opinion. Also, there's whistleblower protection. If you are uncovering corruption, rather than giving aid to the enemy, your actions are not criminal. That may well be the case here. The information released was not of a tactical nature. It didn't disclose troop strengths and numbers, positions, weaknesses, or anything like that. Rather, it exposed a bunch of dirty laundry. Information that shouldn't be classified.

    1. Re:That's not how the law works. by ImprovOmega · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes it does. Laws are written around public opinion. Also, there's whistleblower protection.

      Not military law, which he is under. Military law lets you execute traitors and other fun stuff and it often very, very different than civilian law.

    2. Re:That's not how the law works. by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How about the video of the airstrike that killed two journalists in Iraq? Or the information on how the DEA has vast signals intelligence capabilities that it can use in both foreign and domestic operations (which other member of the law enforcement/intelligence community can do that?)? Or the information on the US army executing civilians in Iraq?

      At the very least, the citizens of the United States should be aware of what their government is doing. How can we decide who to vote for if we do not even know what our government is up to?

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    3. Re:That's not how the law works. by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Reuters had a right to know what happened to their journalists; the fact that they were killed in war is not relevant. They asked politely, and the US army refused to give them the video. This is not a matter of defending the army's actions, or comparing their actions to more barbaric wars, it is a matter of whether or not people have a right to know how two journalists wound up dead.

      As for the DEA, it is not just that the US government has signals intelligence capabilities -- which it has had since World War I, by the way. It is that until recently, intelligence agencies either operated within US borders (e.g. the FBI) or beyond US borders (CIA, NSA, etc.). Now we have the DEA, which can operate inside or outside of the United States, which has more sophisticated signals intelligence capabilities than the FBI, and which has been pressured by "cooperative" governments to assist in the surveillance of political opponents. This is made worse by the fact that the DEA is not charged with protecting our national security in any way, shape, or form; the DEA is supposed to enforce drug laws.

      At the end of the day, people in a democracy have a right and a need to know what their government is doing. This is not about what the US government does or can do, it is about what the citizens of the US are permitted to know.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    4. Re:That's not how the law works. by Rebestein · · Score: 2

      Who is the enemy?

  16. No timeframe is required by Quila · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Everything can be waived upon request. However, this is the period where the government conducts its investigation. A big, complex case would mean a long investigation.

    Here the soldier is at an advantage over a civilian, because he actually gets to be involved in the hearing and present and cross examine witnesses. A civilian prosecutor can (and often does) hold a grand jury without the interests of the defense being presented, thus the saying about indicting a ham sandwich.

    This is one reason why courts martial have a high conviction rate. Most cases that wouldn't result in a conviction don't get referred for trial after an Article 32 hearing. This is how our civilian grand jury system is supposed to work.

  17. And something people need to remember by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Military laws are different than civilian laws. When you sign up for the military, you agree to be subjected to the Uniform Code of Military Justice when you are on duty or deployed. It is related to US civilian laws, but not the same. So if you want to sign up to be a solider, you need to be aware you are held to a different legal standard. A simple example would be that insubordination is against the law in the military.

    Then there's the matter of revealing classified data. Military or not when you are given a security clearance, you agree to not reveal classified information. I don't mean they say "You agree to this," I mean you actually sign an agreement, an NDA. It is very much a full disclosure kind of situation in that you understand and agree not to reveal the things you'll be shown.

    So you can certainly say he did the morally right thing leaking the information, if you believe that (though I would then ask you to show what information leaked you believe was so important for the public to know) but you can't argue it was legal or that he didn't know it was illegal. Since it was done in military service, that also makes it a military trial.

    1. Re:And something people need to remember by copponex · · Score: 5, Informative

      Though I would then ask you to show what information leaked you believe was so important for the public to know

      After Disclosures by WikiLeaks, Al Jazeera Replaces Its Top News Director

      "CAIRO -- Al Jazeera, the pan-Arab news network financed by Qatar, named a member of the Qatari royal family on Tuesday to replace its top news director after disclosures from the group WikiLeaks indicating that the news director had modified the network's coverage of the Iraq war in response to pressure from the United States...

      In at least one instance, involving a report on the network's Web site, Mr. Khanfar said in the cable that he had changed coverage at the American official's request. He said he had removed two images depicting wounded children in a hospital and a woman with a badly wounded face."

      The fact that American officials are censoring the media, including Al Jazeera, may not be news to you, but it does further explain why the Iraq War looked nothing like Vietnam as far as news coverage was concerned. It wasn't because it was a good war. It was because reporting was limited to what American officials wanted Americans to see.

  18. Re:Leaking Secret documents... not OK by Java+Pimp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    People with clearance do not have the authority to just decide something should be declassified and released publicly regardless of their reason for doing so. It does not matter if you feel the country is better off or not, who knows, it very well may be. It is not up to you or a random PFC to make that determination.

    --
    Ascalante: Your bride is over 3,000 years old.
    Kull: She told me she was 19!
  19. I'd prefer a military jury by Quila · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Well, if I were innocent. You don't get a group where the two sides have tried to produce the most ignorant jury possible. They're not likely to be swayed by the pretty charts and rhetoric of the prosecution if they have no real basis.

    You get career military people who are generally well-educated and know the military laws themselves. The average officer on the jury is field-grade, and he'll have a military-oriented master's degree at minimum. Enlisted normally don't rise to the ranks that get put on juries without having at least a batchelor's.

  20. Speedy trial motions are extremely rare by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The defense generally wants as long as they can before trial for all kinds of reasons. As such you almost never see a speedy trial motion. The only time you'd be likely to see one is if an attorney was convinced his client was innocent and the state was dragging their feat. However that is fairly rare.

    Generally in a case where the defense would file a speedy trial motion the prosecution will drop the case rather than go to court and lose. I'm not saying it is always that way, but 99.999% of the time.

    In Manning's case his guilt seems to be pretty clear cut. Thus his lawyer is not going to be at all interested in pushing the trial quickly. He'll want as much time to pass as possible for a lot of reasons.

  21. Just to be clear, it's not his first. by blair1q · · Score: 2

    He's had days in court. Administrative matters relating to his basic rights rather than addressing of the larger issues of whether he should or shouldn't be there, but court nonetheless. He hasn't been denied counsel and a judge been in charge of his incarceration and care since shortly after his arrest. The spooks didn't disappear him. He's getting due process (unless maybe someone in the process screws up and he's getting technicalities his lawyer can exploit, but those are details, not a basic denial of any rights beyond his own signing away of anything but military justice).

  22. Re:Weak sauce by Darri · · Score: 2, Informative

    What were the "atrocities" anyway?

    What about committing the supreme international crime, a war of aggression against Iraq?

    Is that an "atrocity" enough for you?

  23. No one killed by mrops · · Score: 2

    Enough of that bullshit. Till to date no one has been proven killed because of the cable release. The only thing they have done is cast light on war crimes and other shit the US and their allies pull off. If anything the world is a little bit better knowing that all those conspiracy theories may not be as far fetched as the government would like you to think.

  24. Re:Weak sauce by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In the end it seemed like a big bowl of nothing

    How about the fact that the DEA -- supposedly a law enforcement agency -- has amassed such vast signals intelligence power that dictators are demanding DEA assistance in spying on political opponents? We knew that the war on drugs was out of control before the leak, but this gives a clear indication of just how out of control things are, and shows us why the government considers the DEA to be a member of the intelligence community. It is also a warning sign, because unlike the CIA, FBI, or NSA, the DEA is allowed to engage in both foreign and domestic operations, including intelligence gathering.

    --
    Palm trees and 8
  25. Re:Leaking Secret documents... not OK by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Except, as a private in the US military, that was not Bradley Manning's job or duty to decide.

    Whose duty was it to correctly classify documents? Why are they not being tried for dereliction of duty?

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  26. Re:Just a liar by blair1q · · Score: 3, Informative

    He believed there was one specific crime, and he actually did expose evidence of it.

    Problem is, that was illegal. Releasing every other document in the database was just piling on.

    There's a procedure for getting criminally classified documents declassified. In fact, it might not even be necessary, since all he had to do was show certain people within the system that they existed, and the crime would be dealt with without declassifying the documents.

    if for some reason he didn't like the result, his recourse was to take it another step up the chain. He's got a dozen commanders and a dozen Inspectors General (who checks-and-balances his associated commander) between him and the Commander-in-Chief, plus he can write his Congressmen (all three of them) or a number of officials in the Defense security apparatus whose sole job is to deal with illegal classification, and he's completely within his rights -- and encouraged -- to do those things, and told (probably on a poster in the classified storage area) that it is illegal for anyone to retaliate against him.

    Instead he decided he knew that there were no honest men or women anywhere in that system, so he was above the law, and glory would shine on him for his actions.

    I think he had help coming to that belief, and that encouragement constitutes a violation of law itself.

  27. Re:He's 23! by blair1q · · Score: 2

    yes they are. and he deserves whatever he gets as a result of that trial. no matter how old he is.

  28. What's happening to this country? by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 2

    I was watching an episode of Locked Up Abroad and laughing at some 3rd world country that took about a year to put the antagonist to trial while he sat in jail. So, in what version of Gestapo America is 1 1/2 years OK?

    --
    I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
  29. Re:Obama is the warmongerer??? by anagama · · Score: 2

    There is so much BS in your post I need a front end loader to get through it. Citations on my website.

    1) While the war crime happened in 2006, Assange's cache of cables was only decrypted this summer. So while the news is old so to speak, it is fresh to the public.

    2) Obama is a warmonger. For example,

    (a) Bush launced 52 drone attacks. Obama has, in a much shorter period, launched 254. You think the GOP twisted his arm to do that?

    (b) When Bush left office, there were about 30k troops in Afghanistan. Obama bumped that up to 112k at one point. That was Obama's choice?

    (c) Obama is working hard to undermine the Convention on Cluster Munitions even though we aren't even a signatory? You gonna blame that on the GOP?

    (d) And then there is Libya. Our founding fathers were well aware of the dangers posed by leaders who could both decide to go to war and then decide how to fight it. They all came from Europe which had suffered greatly under its kings. So they separate the war powers -- Congress got the right to declare it, the President the right to decide how to fight it. Since Korea, this has been ignored and then institutionalized in the War Powers Act. The crime in Libya is that Obama didn't even live up to his duties of the War Powers Act setting a precident that the President can unilaterally declare war. That is fucking huge. And no, his arm wasn't twisted by the GOP, but when future President Cheney arbitrarily attacks Iceland, remember to thank Obama.

    3) Recognizing Obama as a neocon warmonger has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with his behavior. Bush was, until Obama embraced and extended his policies, the worst piece of shit this country had had for a president. The fact that Obama is African American however, cannot excuse him for being worse than Bush. Racism is supporting Obama DESPITE everything he has done just because he's not white.

    --
    What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
  30. Re:So wrong... by microbox · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Well too bad for Manning then he uncovered NOTHING while in the meantime delivering the enemy all kinds of juicy intelligence

    You've got your blinkers on there.

    Let me guess, your a jingoist?

    --

    Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
  31. Re:So wrong... by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 2

    Well too bad for Manning then he uncovered NOTHING

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/26/world/26wikidrugs.html?pagewanted=all

    --
    Palm trees and 8
  32. Who was misusing it? by mosb1000 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Some people would say that much of the information he released shouldn't have been classified in the first place. So, who is really the one misusing it?

    1. Re:Who was misusing it? by DesScorp · · Score: 4, Informative

      Some people would say that much of the information he released shouldn't have been classified in the first place. So, who is really the one misusing it?

      And what "some people say" doesn't mean squat, because you don't get to decide that when you enlist. Just like you don't get to decide what uniform to wear or what targets to bomb or who to shoot at.The military is not a democracy.

      --
      Life is hard, and the world is cruel
  33. Re:If Guilty... by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 3, Informative

    If found guilty, putting him up against the wall and doing what you do to traitors up against the wall is fully appropriate for the damage he has done.

    Citation needed.

    --
    Palm trees and 8
  34. He is the enemy by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Not even fucking close.

    If he could have attached each one of those documents to a specific crime, he might have had some moral ground to stand on. But instead he released as many classified documents as he could get his hands on.

    In spite of his self-righteous grandstanding, I think he was really just pissed that he was demoted and going to get kicked out for assaulting an officer and thought, and probably still thinks, that he'll get away with it in the long run.

    --
    If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
  35. Don't let facts get in your way by Quila · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Here's something that will spin your brain: This is Bush's drawdown. Yep, agreed to in 2008 with the government of Iraq.

    The only possible way this had anything to do with the drawdown would be if Obama had been planning to keep the troops there despite the Bush agreement, but decided not to after this got out.

  36. Re:Weak sauce by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Would you people please READ instead of using talking points?

    US troops committed summary execution of Iraqi women and children, then called in an airstrike to destroy the evidence.

    DynCorp pimped young boys to Afghani police recruits ("bacha bazi").

    If that's a "big bowl of nothing", then I'd like a helping of "bullshit" to go with it.

    --
    :(){ :|:& };:
  37. Re:He's 23! by DeadCatX2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    People in Obama's administration have leaked classified info (bin Laden raid, anyone?)

    That info was actually TOP SECRET, and not just SECRET. So someone in Obama's administration is leaking more serious info than Manning did.

    Don't hold your breath waiting for that investigation, though.

    --
    :(){ :|:& };:
  38. Re:So wrong... by joss · · Score: 2

    > He leaked that information and is fully responsible for what happens as a result.

    I agree. This is the basis on which he should be judged. Did the release of this information on balance have a good or bad effect. He couldn't possibly have known the implications of all releasing all that he released, some informers could have conceivable ended up being executed (although, I'm pretty sure the powerful interests embarrassed by the leak would have highlighted any concrete examples had there been any). On the other hand, a vast amount of this information was not classified for any reason other than for political expediency. One cannot have a functioning democracy when people have no idea what their government is up to so there is a definite good that comes from bringing more information to light than the government is comfortable with. Its also true that diplomats cannot properly function without discretion. Tricky one this.. he's guilty, he'll go to jail, but he was right about something: a vast amount of this stuff was classified for the benefit of other guilty parties rather than for the good of the American people. He gets to pay the price of our increased liberty - he can't be let off completely but some compassion is called for

    --
    http://rareformnewmedia.com/
  39. Re:Weak sauce by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

    According to Wired Magazine, "WikiLeaks may have just bolstered one of the Bush administration’s most controversial claims about the Iraq war: that Iran supplied many of the Iraq insurgency’s deadliest weapons and worked hand-in-glove with some of its most lethal militias. The documents indicate that Iran was a major combatant in the Iraq war, as its elite Quds Force trained Iraqi Shiite insurgents and imported deadly weapons like the shape-charged explosively formed penetrator bombs into Iraq for use against civilians, Sunni militants and U.S. troops."[

    Thats damning stuff right there.

    Seriously, did you even read that list? The first 10 or so talk either about interesting statistics that may have been misreported, and several issues of the Iraqi security forces. The worst you can really pin on our military (at least from the first several bullets there) is that we classified the reuters reporters killed in the gunship incident as enemy combatants.

  40. Re:Weak sauce by Catbeller · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The war was a lie. The President and Cheney declared that Iraq had attacked us. We went there and slaughtered 60K+ people outright, destroyed their electrical generator plants, water systems, gas lines, highways and outright stole their only national resource, the oil under their feet. We did it against the advice of almost every country on earth. We've led to the deaths and torture of almost two million people. We've emptied the country of its people as they fled a 120+ degree hell that now has no jobs, no air conditioning, barely food, and has a government consisting of the son of a bitch, Chalabi, who told Bush and Cheney anything they wanted to hear. He is now in charge of the oil fields and is essentially the secret service. We have installed another bunch of thieves, and you want to "bring our boys home", like they just fought Adolph. That country could not, would not, did not want to attack us. but it had lovely oil, and we stole it.

  41. Re:Weak sauce by Catbeller · · Score: 5, Insightful

    1) Manning DID NOT release the documents, as you keep asserting. He transmitted them to Wikileaks, a trusted organization that kept secret whistleblowers secret.

    2) Wikileaks DID NOT RELEASE a blessed thing; the New York Times, the Guardian of London, and two other papers were given the block of documents, and they and they *alone* released what they thought safe to release after careful review, in which Wikileaks did not participate. If you have a problem, take it up with the newspapers, not Manning, not Wikileaks.

    3) The full documents got out after a reporter from the Guardian, I believe, idiotically published the password in an article. Go hang him.

    4) Manning and Wikileaks exercise due diligence and made sure that they released nothing harmful to the troops by giving control of the release to responsible reporters who were supposed to know what they are doing. That is precisely how responsible leakers have always done it.

    5) The reporters let us see that our troops had committed a savage murder, on camera, and the chain of command had refused to investigate.

    6) Large number of stories are now known to us about immoral and illegal acts committed by our government and others. One of those reports triggered the uprising called the Arab Spring. Perhaps you've heard of it.

    7) The US government in the past ten years has extended secret classifications to even mundane domestic reports. We even have secret laws that we cannot see, and no-fly lists that cannot be seen or contested. We have a country run in secret down to our police departments. A country that does not know, CANnot know, by law, what is actually happening in their name cannot possess the knowledge to govern themselves, making democracy itself impossible, even illegal. To become informed is to break the law. To break this blockade on truth is to spend 18 months in solitary without charge while they try to get you to falsely implicate others. To try to keep your country free and murderers tried for their crimes, they will lock you up for years without charges and then give you two weeks to get ready for trial after your mind is half gone and you haven't talked to a sane human for so long you can't construct sentences, let alone argue, against the full might of a national secrecy state that likes power and ain't about to give any up to lippy men with notions of right and wrong.

    This is not about oaths and laws. This is about what is right, and what is wrong. And knowing enough to understand the different.

  42. Re:Leaking Secret documents... not OK by Bob9113 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Except, as a private in the US military, that was not Bradley Manning's job or duty to decide.

    It is not his job until his superiors, whose job it is, fail in their duty. Then it is his obligation to do so. Our executive branch has chronically deprived the citizens of the information necessary for us to make informed decisions about how we wish our military to be employed. When those with standard authority are failing in their duty to keep us informed, it is only those without standard authority who can make the decision.

    It is a further failure to satisfy their oaths of office that we have ceased to recognize whistleblower protection. The authoritarians have decided that the notion of citizens as sovereigns is far too inconvenient, and that we can't handle the truth.

  43. What makes this case so interesting... by Co0Ps · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What makes this case so interesting is that he clearly broke the military rules and also clearly helped humanity through his actions and he never gained anything by doing it. He wasn't paid for doing it and he knew people would hate him and that he would be punished hard but he followed his ideals rather than doing what gains him the most personally. He believed in the right of the public to know what their country is actually doing and where their tax money goes.

    I see that some of you are angry with him and want him punished but when asked what he actually did wrong you can't argue further than him "breaking the rules" and "acting irresponsible". That he caused or will cause deaths is pure speculation. Maybe you are angry with him because deep inside you know you would never have the balls to pull this off by yourself? Because you know that you are that kind of person that curls into a ball when the authority beats you with a stick and tells you what to do and think. Because being told what to do and think follows naturally when you argue that the government has the right to censor and keep information secret from the public it serves.

    What makes this case so interesting is the reactions from people. It tells you a lot of what kind of person you are deep inside.

  44. Re:Weak sauce by Catbeller · · Score: 5, Informative

    2A) The NY Times and the London Guardian informed the US government, before publishing anything, that they were in possession of the documents. They invited the US to review what was to be published, and were given the power to edit the documents so that no soldier would be endangered by publication. The US government refused to cooperate. So, please, keep this in mind when you talk about Manning "releasing" documents. All the T's were crossed and the i's dotted.

  45. Re:Weak sauce by Pseudonym · · Score: 2

    Even if we were to assume your statements were 100% accurate, it STILL doesnt answer the question, "why release the other 99,000 documents?"

    For the same reason why the other 4000 pages of the Pentagon Papers were released, I would imagine.

    However, I think that you might be asking this question about the wrong person. A leaker/whistleblower is often not the best person to sift through the material that they have at their disposal and decide what is in the public interest to release and what isn't. That's the job of journalists.

    For what it's worth, Manning isn't accused of releasing anything to the general public. He's accused of releasing material to a press agency (in this case Wikileaks). You should be asking the press why the other documents were released, not Manning (even assuming it was him who did it).

    --
    sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
  46. Re:Weak sauce by Isaac-1 · · Score: 2

    Wow it must be nice living on the kinds of drugs you must taking to now to see that transmitting to a non authorized entity is RELEASING documents. It is not a matter of being trusted, I am sure lots of people trusted the KGB 50 years ago too, that did not make them authorized to view hundreds of thousands of cables, and getting caught transmitting to them would have almost certainly found you put on trial for treason.

  47. Re:Weak sauce by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Oil prices remaining high doesn't mean we didn't do it for "our" sake. It just means that you are not one of the "our."

  48. Re:So wrong... by scot4875 · · Score: 3

    The simple fact of the matter is: Bradley Manning is more of a patriot than you or I or probably anyone else on Slashdot could ever hope to be.

    --Jeremy

    --
    Jesus was a liberal
  49. Re:Weak sauce by LordLimecat · · Score: 2, Informative

    1) Manning DID NOT release the documents, as you keep asserting. He transmitted them to Wikileaks, a trusted organization that kept secret whistleblowers secret.

    Yea, see, that right there is releasing sensitive information. He is the one who had the original access to it, and he is the source of the leak. You might as well claim that, had he put it on bittorrent, it wasnt HIS fault that it was broken up into a zillion pieces and spread all over the internet.

    If you have a problem, take it up with the newspapers, not Manning, not Wikileaks.

    The newspapers arent being charged, last I checked, since they didnt break any agreements or violate any military codes.

    Manning and Wikileaks exercise due diligence and made sure that they released nothing harmful to the troops by giving control of the release to responsible reporters who were supposed to know what they are doing. That is precisely how responsible leakers have always done it.

    That might have held some water if he hadnt realeased such an incredible amount of stuff which amounted to basically however much he could get his hands on.

    This is not about oaths and laws.

    See, thats where youre wrong-- laws and oaths are precisely why Manning is on trial, and would have been at any point in US history. What he did has never been acceptable, and never will be. As for right and wrong, for him to take the moral high ground he would have had to exercise a great deal more restraint and specificity on what he leaked than he did.

  50. Re:Weak sauce by Xest · · Score: 2

    "As for right and wrong, for him to take the moral high ground he would have had to exercise a great deal more restraint and specificity on what he leaked than he did."

    This is retarded, there's no possible way he could've filtered through the information to separate the countless amounts of abuse documented within, so your argument is effectively that because he couldn't do this he shouldn't have leaked at all to avoid the more menial and irrelevant cables getting leaked.

    Your argument amounts to saying that if you can't separate all the evidence of an endemic attitude of turning a blind eye to breaches of various international standards on human rights, diplomatic laws, war crimes and so forth from the mundane then you should just keep it all secret.

    The story from the cables wasn't one specific incident or another, it's that the US was ignoring the very standards it preaches to the rest of the world and from the very top to the very bottom illustrated by everything from Hilary Clinton ordering the spying on of UN diplomats in international territory down to grunts on the ground murdering people and shelling civilian populated areas in the hope of randomly hitting militants.

    Sure not all of it was relevant to this story, but you just couldn't filter out the irrelevant cruft.

    Finally you're missing the GP's point completely, yes we all know that technically it's about breaking some arbitrarily (and often undemocratically) defined legal principle, but the GP's point was that just because something is law, doesn't mean it's just, doesn't mean it's moral, and doesn't mean it's right. Thus far for all the talk of putting lives in danger the leaks have not done so, they have led to a massive positive upheaval in global politics where the entrenched positions of vested interests were the very things that led to the complacency that allowed the abuses highlighted within the cables to be committed in the first place. The net effect of the leaks has been overwhelmingly positive across the globe and in the court of moral judgement Manning has been vindicated, it's just a shame the courts of American justice no longer align with what is right, or what is wrong, only with what the vested interests from large corporates to self interested politicians want to be the case. Really, the only people bitching about what Manning did are wrong are for the most part, the same right wing Republican types who allowed the likes of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq to turn into a such a shit storm in the first place, so no, the rest of the world doesn't give a fuck what you think, we just feel sorry for Manning being caught up in your poisonous grasp but thank him for the positive effect his actions have had in the world.

  51. Re:Weak sauce by Xest · · Score: 2

    "He released tens (hundreds?) of thousands of documents for basically one or two issues that might have been significant."

    Therein lies precisely the problem with people like you who feel the US is a nation who's evidence of wrongdoing should be kept secret, you just fob it off as "one or two issues" when there were, frankly, 100s of important issues all surrounding the same theme - American arrogance as a source of many problems in the world, from diplomatic spying to many many counts of killing of civilians.

    If a company suffers from systemic corruption and incompetence then yes, only a complete leak of their data will be enough to allow people to examine the depth of the problem. This is the fundamental issue unveiled by the cables Manning leaked - American corruption and incompetence was a major problem throughout pretty much every level of the military and government, and that needed to be exposed so that America can correct it's path of self-destruction based upon arrogance and the culture of secrecy that allowed such corruption and subversive practices to thrive in the first place.

    I don't expect you to understand this though, as first you would have to recognise that America has lost it's way as a force for good in the world, but I'll help you get started on that - extraordinary rendition and detention without trial and Guantanamo are an ideal start. You can follow up with the war in Iraq and exactly what that was meant to achieve and who profited from it (Hint: Bush and Cheney et al.) at the expense of many US service people's lives. When you start to recognise that America has lost it's way, you'll begin to understand why America has seen it's respect in the world plummet, and when you understand all of that you'll begin to recognise that America needs the kind of shake up Manning has provided to wake up from it's mindless sleepwalk towards it's own downfall.

    Perhaps you'll also then realise that people like me don't like seeing things like the Wikileaks leak happen because we hate America, but because we would rather see America return to being a force for good in the world - something it inherently can't ever be when the widespread practices exposed by the cables continue to be commonplace. The best defence against such a leak in future is the same solution required for America to return to being an important force for good in the world - stop merely pretending to be a beacon of democracy, liberty, justice, and freedom and actually start once again to act in the interests of those tenets. If America was doing that, there'd be nothing of note worth leaking.