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The Future of Protest In Panopticon Nation

Hugh Pickens writes "James Fallows writes that you don't have to idealize everything about the Occupy movement to recognize the stoic resolve of the protesters at UC Davis being pepper sprayed as a moral drama that the protesters clearly won. 'The self-control they show, while being assaulted, reminds me of grainy TV footage I saw as a kid, of black civil rights protesters being fire-hosed by Bull Connor's policemen in Alabama. Or of course the Tank Man in Tiananmen Square,' writes Fallows. 'Such images can have tremendous, lasting power.' We can't yet imagine all the effects of the panopticon society we are beginning to live in but one benefit to the modern protest movement is the omnipresence of cameras (video) as police officials, protesters, and nearly all onlookers are recording whatever goes on bringing greater accountability and a reality-test for police claims that they 'had' to use excessive force. 'What's new is that now the perception war occurs simultaneously with the physical struggle. There's almost parity,' writes Andrew Sprung. 'You have a truncheon or gun, I have a camera. You inflict pain, I inflict infamy.'"

111 of 566 comments (clear)

  1. This guy ever been beaten up before? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    First Post

    "There's almost parity,' writes Andrew Sprung. 'You have a truncheon or gun, I have a camera. You inflict pain, I inflict infamy.'""

    haha come on, parity?

    Has this guy ever been pepper sprayed or beaten up before?

    People shouldnt have to endure this to receive justice

    Its a sad day our society thinks this is some kind of achievement or "balance" of power

    1. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by causality · · Score: 5, Insightful

      People shouldnt have to endure this to receive justice

      No, they shouldn't, but this is the way it has always been.

      You can read the autobiography of Mohandas Ghandi (a really wonderful book) and see the same patterns. You can read some Henry David Thoreau and understand why he would have preferred to remain in jail instead of having a well-meaning but less-principled individual pay his poll tax for him.

      As long as the masses, the majority of people, are largely passive and indifferent to the injustice around them there will always be a need for exceptional individuals to take this kind of abuse to effect any real change. What people like Thoreau and Ghandi realized was the error of violence, the way it makes it so easy for those who control perception and use propaganda to make the violent (however justified) into evil bogeymen who will always be demonized in the popular mind.

      I heard this one time and I never forgot it. It is a saying of Ghandi's: "the good that violence appears to do is temporary; the harm that it does is permanent." I suppose there are a lot of low-brow, smarmy types with nothing to contribute so for them maybe I should add "within the context of protest and trying to change society" so the fact that war sometimes is quite necessary is irrelevant. There was a time before it became necessary and that's when peaceful change was possible. I'm tired of that small-minded crowd, so I don't consider it a total waste to deny them the slam-dunk "victory" they so desperately crave.

      At any rate, doing it peacefully means you absolutely must maintain the high ground. If you want to expose the establishment for the bunch of power-hungry thugs they tend to be, you cannot use their tactics. It provides no contrast. The unwise, reactionary, direction-less types who tend to attach themselves to any major movement are the biggest problem the Occupiers currently have. Do you not notice how the media reports with glee the rapes, murders, etc. that occur on the Occupied territory? That's exactly what they want -- for you to be no better. If you want to be effective, don't give it to them.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    2. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      History always repeats itself. Swords and pens have become guns and cameras. The balance between them remains the same.

    3. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by causality · · Score: 5, Insightful

      First Post

      "There's almost parity,' writes Andrew Sprung. 'You have a truncheon or gun, I have a camera. You inflict pain, I inflict infamy.'""

      haha come on, parity?

      Has this guy ever been pepper sprayed or beaten up before?

      People shouldnt have to endure this to receive justice

      Its a sad day our society thinks this is some kind of achievement or "balance" of power

      The balance of power has always been a slow, grinding play of justice against violent acts.

      You rob a convenience store, or ten, it profits you in the moment, but spending years behind bars is the price. If a cop beats a protester to death for no apparent reason and it is covered by several independent video cameras, he's a lot more likely to answer for his actions than if it was merely witnessed by 50 protesters who were also being beaten.

      Unfortunately the worst penalty the cop is likely to face is either a paid vacation known as "administrative leave" or maybe the loss of his job. This is a serious problem. A free society won't stay that way if the police have some kind of special status above the citizens they are supposed to be serving. Incidentally, a cop who beats someone basically has to also charge them with resisting arrest (or similar) or he's admitting he beat them for no reason, so there is both the assault and the criminal charge that may haunt the person for life.

      Even the idea that "assaulting a police officer" carries a higher penalty than assaulting a citizen might sound good but it's completely misguided. The cop is better able to respond to an assault, to have back-up, and carries an assortment of weaponry everywhere he goes. The average citizen is more likely to be unarmed and more likely to hesitate to use any available weapons for fear that a court will not consider it self-defense (we like victimhood and we like to encourage bullies so in many states you are expected to try fleeing first, nevermind this only emboldens the criminals). Even if there were not such an inequality, the cop is our servant, one particularly able to abuse his authority, and granting him equality alone is generous.

      You simply can't have "special" or "protected" groups and expect to remain an egalitarian society that cherishes freedoms. It has never happened before and it won't happen again.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    4. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by Anonymous+Psychopath · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Sorry to ask you, but what exactly Ghandy achieved? I am not saying that he is not extraordinary man, but, did he actually change anything at all???

      Other than India's change from a British colony to a sovereign nation, you mean? Are you serious?

      --

      Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

    5. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I love this post so very much. Thank you.

    6. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by Fjandr · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not to disagree with the outrage expressed, but:

      Has this guy ever been pepper sprayed or beaten up before?

      Yes, he has. It's part of the training in the use of pepper spray by police forces. He's been sprayed at least once in the face with it.

    7. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Informative

      Do you not notice how the media reports with glee the rapes, murders, etc. that occur on the Occupied territory?

      And don't report that the perpetrators were not associated with the OWS protestors?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    8. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Other than India's change from a British colony to a sovereign nation, you mean? Are you serious?

      India was going to become a sovereign nation regardless; the British couldn't afford it and the Indians wanted them gone. Gandhi's main 'success' was in bringing that forward a few years as a chaotic withdrawal where I believe around a million Indians died, instead of a peaceful handover of power.

    9. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You can read some Henry David Thoreau and understand why he would have preferred to remain in jail instead of having a well-meaning but less-principled individual pay his poll tax for him.

      Thoreau's essay (search for "Civil Disobedience" online) is excellent and should be required reading of every high school student in America.

      (Preferring to remain in jail is a little less impressive when it's only overnight, until Emerson comes to bail him out in the morning. Kinda like how his whole self-reliance theme is a little less powerful when he's squatting on land owned by Emerson. But still, considering the essay that came out of the overnight stay in jail, and its subsequent influence, it was pretty awesome.)

      --
      -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
    10. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The unwise, reactionary, direction-less types who tend to attach themselves to any major movement are the biggest problem the Occupiers currently have. Do you not notice how the media reports with glee the rapes, murders, etc. that occur on the Occupied territory? That's exactly what they want -- for you to be no better. If you want to be effective, don't give it to them.

      Your problem is, and I have this information directly from people who participated in this very same activity in the 1960s, is that the unwise, reactionary, direction-less types, as well as those looking to party, do drugs, and hook-up with the opposite sex, are 99% of your protest numbers. Without them, the true reactionaries would be seen as too small a group to even care about. So they have to invite everybody else in in an attempt to show numbers that they don't truly possess. Running a fine Kitchen and giving out lots of free stuff at the Comfort Tent gave OWS the appearance of numbers far beyond the true reality of the dedicated.

      --
      "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    11. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by boombaard · · Score: 3, Informative
      Not quite isolated..

      Video footage has emerged of a police officer beating an Iraq war veteran so hard that he suffered a ruptured spleen in an apparently unprovoked incident at a recent Occupy protest in California.
      The footage, which has been shared with the Guardian, shows Kayvan Sabehgi standing in front of a police line on the night of Occupy Oakland's general strike on 2 November, when he is set upon by an officer.
      He does not appear to be posing any threat, nor does he attempt to resist, yet he is hit numerous times by an officer clad in riot gear who appears determined to beat him to the ground.
      Sabehgi, 32, an Oakland resident and former marine who served in Iraq and Afghanistan, has since undergone surgery on his spleen. He says it took hours for him to be taken to hospital, despite complaining of severe pain. Police have told the Guardian they are investigating the incident.
      The footage was recorded by artist and photographer Neil Rivas, who said Sabehgi was "completely peaceful" before he was beaten. "It was uncalled for," said Rivas. "There were no curse words. He was telling them he was a war vet, a resident of Oakland, a business owner."
      Sabehgi has previously said he was talking to officers in a non-violent manner prior to his arrest, which the footage appears to confirm.
      The 32-year-old can be seen standing in front of a line of police officers, all of whom are in riot gear. The officers walk forward, chanting and thrusting their batons, and Sabehgi starts to walk backwards.
      Although the video is dark, an officer can clearly be seen beginning to hit Sabehgi around the legs with a baton, then starting to strike him higher up.

    12. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 2

      If a cop beats a protester to death for no apparent reason and it is covered by several independent video cameras, he's a lot more likely to answer for his actions than if it was merely witnessed by 50 protesters who were also being beaten.

      And just how many OWS protesters have been beaten to death so far by the cops? About zero maybe?

      --
      "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    13. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by Genda · · Score: 5, Informative

      I understand your question. The sad truth is that the world is a strange and chaotic place. How many millions have been slaughtered in the name of the "Prince of Peace". That doesn't make the conversation "Love thy Enemy" any less profound or moving. Gandhi freed nearly a billion people from the oppression of foreign rule. More important he is the father of peaceful revolution. The American civil rights movement owes almost everything to Gandhi. Since then the best of the work of Mandela, Tienanmen Square, and a hundred other peaceful revolution small and large owe their power, dignity and humanity to the road paved by Gandhi.

      He literally invented a new way for human beings to determine the future with complete responsibility and complete compassion. I can't remember a larger contribution to the species and it will certainly play a large part in what it about to happen to our government and our collective futures.

    14. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is that unions make it very difficult to fire people that really deserve firing.

      It was not unions that ordered the police to use force at the level that they did. And it should not be the officers, even the infamous Lt John Pike from UCDavis who will forever be known as the fat turd who strolled in front of peaceful protestors on their knees and casually sprayed them point-blank in the face with military-grade mace (and whose email address and personal information has been disseminated everywhere).

      Some of the photographic mashups of that famous photo are terrific, by the way.

      The people who ordered such over-the-top violence, the mayors and chancellors (I love that word, "chancellors") who thought they were being clever by coordinating their actions to neutralize the protests, those are the folks that should pay the price.

      But nice try, ShakaUVM, you sad fuck, to make this all a "union" issue or a "marxist" issue, instead of what it is, an issue of the overt militarization of municipal police forces. And an issue of an increasingly antsy elite who are starting to sweat in the cracks in their asses because there are just so many people who aren't rich out there who are starting to get pissed about being misused.

      I mean, when exactly did campus police start dressing like extras from an S&M production of The Empire Strikes Back, anyway? The funny thing about when you bring all that para-military drag and hardware into a small force, there are always a few who are just dying to get a chance to use it. And that sad, chubby little thug with the mustache who thought it was just so cool to show those oh-so-superior college students a thing or two about what it means to carry a badge, that little shit who probably never got the time of day from any of the hot coeds he tried to chat up on campus, who saw all those smart-ass college kids who thought they were better than him because they were going to get Masters Degree instead of his associates in criminal justice from a community college. Oh, Lt John Pike was going to show them what's what alright. And ShakaUVM who I'm sure identifies with Lt Pike shakes his fist and says, "Yeah, give it to them hippie bitches".

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    15. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The Davis situation has some important differences with other Occupy incidents.

      First and foremost, there is a strong presumption (strong enough to stand in any civil court in California) that the individuals involved had a legal right to be where they were. They were not being accused of trespassing, nor were they being accused via any specific form of due process of any crime at all. They were technically "in or near their domicile", the common area around a residential section of their campus. To some degree they have the same rights as you would have, on the sidewalk in front of your California home. Because of this aspect, there are as many Fourth Amendment considerations as there are First Amendment questions.

      Next, also somewhat important, is that the officer (Lt. Pike) was acting on his own initiative, contrary to orders to _not_ use force. At least this is according to official statements made today by people speaking for the university. While he may enjoy immunity from any _criminal_ accusations, he may not have _civil_ immunity because he was acting as an individual and not following orders of a law enforcement organization. He was using force against individuals who were not under arrest, not under suspicion of any particular crime, and certainly without any warrant or the will of any judicial magistrate. It remains to be seen if the departmental policy documents this procedure for the use of pepper spray and whether it was consistent with that policy, even if justified.

      But it does not matter. It will be a long road for the university officials to defend the premise that an order to vacate that particular area was lawful in the first place, because they cannot show that the individuals had no right to be there, whereas the protestors can show that they did.

      Perhaps most important of all, the UC Davis Board of Regents are not stupid enough to allow any civil cases to escalate, since it's easy to see how they could be forced into explaining all of this to the very same Ninth Circuit panel that decided for Lundberg vs. Humboldt. If they allowed it to get to that point, and then if it could be shown that anyone in a position of authority knew or should have known about that standing case law as it applies in California, the door is open to not only unlimited civil damages (think millions per victim) but also to conspiracy charges against the people who made the decision to do this attack.

      Smarter armchair lawyers than myself are obviously thinking about this, and are already doing damage control. I notice that soon-to-be-former Lt. Pike is wisely speaking to no-one other than his own lawyer, and that the people who speak for the university are making it clear that Pike was disobeying orders. If they fail to throw Pike under the bus, they have a HUGE problem in that orders were given which are not at all lawful in their jurisdiction. The school's directors are assuredly praying that none of these individuals have rich, well-connected, activist parents.

      This may not end as badly for Pike as some of you are obviously hoping. He might turn out to be a pinhead who didn't understand what he was stepping in. Ignorance I can forgive, to an extent. But if he was ordered to do what he did by someone who knew or should have known the things I outline in my post above, then release the hounds.

      My bet is that it will end quietly with undisclosed settlements offered to each victim. Like I said, the UC Davis board are not fools, and they know that trying to defend against civil litigation from any of these students will be a losing proposition. The Davis incident is quite unlike any of the other OWS protest violence incidents, primarily because none of those incidents can be construed to have occurred _where the protestors lived_.

      I doubt Lt. Pike will be held personally responsible for financial losses to the University but I do not believe he has any sort of total immunity, especially if the University admins are telling the truth about him being ordered not to use force. If they are lying, they are F'd. If they are telling the truth, Pike is F'd. Either way, the institution is F'd, and there are going to be some very happy lawyers getting a piece of the action.

    16. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by QRDeNameland · · Score: 2

      So then I ask you, name one war that has not done permanent damage?

      The Pig War.

      Well, not from the POV of the pig. Great reference, though.

      --
      Momentarily, the need for the construction of new light will no longer exist.
    17. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by causality · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "the good that violence appears to do is temporary; the harm that it does is permanent." I suppose there are a lot of low-brow, smarmy types with nothing to contribute so for them maybe I should add "within the context of protest and trying to change society"

      You could, but then you would just be making a fool of yourself for no reason at all. What good does violence do in child-rearing? In traffic?

      I suspect that you were trying to justify warfare with your statement. So then I ask you, name one war that has not done permanent damage?

      There is a time when war is absolutely necessary. People like Hitler and Mussolini couldn't have been reasoned with. How well did appeasement work again? The time for peaceful change within Germany was before he became such a powerful dictator. The fact that war does permanent damage makes it a thing of last resort. It does not mean you are obligated to lay down and allow a tyrant to walk all over you.


      Or for a less extreme example, have you ever been physically attacked in a completely unprovoked manner by someone you have harmed in no way? If you counter-attack and knock them out, are you not merely defending yourself against an aggressor? Do you not believe that receiving such a response might make the thug think twice about attacking the next innocent?

      But for a peaceful protest? No, there is no excuse for violence. I am sorry if you cannot distinguish the difference and attribute this failure of yours to some kind of foolishness on my part. I do not consider warfare justified when there are other options. Peaceful protest is one such option. So is voting (though not so effective in a two-party system). So is the soap box. There is simply no excuse for protestors to initiate violence. Likewise, there is no excuse for police to use violence against protestors who are peaceful and do not pose a threat.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    18. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by zolltron · · Score: 5, Informative

      One woman had a miscarriage as a direct result of being kicked in the stomach repeatedly by police. (And, yes, she told be police she was pregnant, and that she was trying to escape to protect her unborn child.)

      http://open.salon.com/blog/fingerlakeswanderer/2011/11/22/pregnant_protester_who_was_beaten_miscarries

      Is that enough violence for you? Or would you like more before you regard this as despicable?

    19. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by causality · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You can read some Henry David Thoreau and understand why he would have preferred to remain in jail instead of having a well-meaning but less-principled individual pay his poll tax for him.

      Thoreau's essay (search for "Civil Disobedience" online) is excellent and should be required reading of every high school student in America.

      (Preferring to remain in jail is a little less impressive when it's only overnight, until Emerson comes to bail him out in the morning. Kinda like how his whole self-reliance theme is a little less powerful when he's squatting on land owned by Emerson. But still, considering the essay that came out of the overnight stay in jail, and its subsequent influence, it was pretty awesome.)

      I especially loved and appreciated the part about the level of consciousness from which the State's response came. I don't remember the description exactly, but he wrote about the way it was his thoughts, beliefs, principles, and meditations that they found so intolerable, yet they took out their vengence on his body by locking it up. He said they did this just as boys who, unable to get back at their enemy, will abuse his dog. The jailor shut and locked the cell door, imprisoning his body, but his meditations went right through and out the door behind him.

      This was not someone you could intimidate by the usual methods and he did not need violence to achieve that status. This is what I admire.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    20. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by anagama · · Score: 4, Informative

      I mean, when exactly did campus police start dressing like extras from an S&M production of The Empire Strikes Back, anyway?

      Here's an interesting article by Norm Stamper, Seattle Police Chief during the WTO protests in 1999 ("Battle in Seattle"). Since then, he has professed great regret for his reaction and has unequivocally apologized for his orders and the actions of the police force. Anyway, he addresses the increasing militarization of the police in the US and explains why it is such a bad idea to stop being part of the community and start being the "them", as in oppressors, at least with respect to solving day to day crimes that actually harm citizens.

      http://www.thenation.com/article/164501/paramilitary-policing-seattle-occupy-wall-street

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    21. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Here's an interesting article by Norm Stamper, Seattle Police Chief during the WTO protests in 1999 ("Battle in Seattle"). Since then, he has professed great regret for his reaction and has unequivocally apologized for his orders and the actions of the police force. Anyway, he addresses the increasing militarization of the police in the US and explains why it is such a bad idea to stop being part of the community and start being the "them", as in oppressors, at least with respect to solving day to day crimes that actually harm citizens.

      I know Lt Wardanian of the UIC police here in Chicago. He's a very good man. Also somewhat uncomfortable about the militarization, but aware of the pressure to "professionalize" the campus police, which means "buy military hardware".

      The big military contractors see local police forces as an opportunity - a new profit center. The first municipal PD to get heavy into the military drag was Los Angeles, and there were demonstrated ties (money) passing from the big military contractors to LAPD brass after Rodney King. That disaster of a police chief Darryl Gates was the guy on the take, and no, as chief, he was not a union member.

      Can you imagine? The reaction of Gates and the LAPD brass after the Rodney King incident and its aftermath is to give its officers more deadly hardware? Also, to end any efforts to engage in "community policing" or for that matter, any involvement with the communities and their leaders at all. The tenure of Chief Gates is a blot on the history of Los Angeles, and so naturally has been emulated by police chiefs nationwide.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    22. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "A policeman is a civilian" - Sam Vimes.

      Keep the peace. That was the thing. People often failed to understand what that meant. You'd go to some lifethreatening disturbance like a couple of neighbours scrapping in the street over who owned the hedge between their properties, and they'd both be bursting with aggrieved selfrighteousness, both yelling, their wives would either be having a private scrap on the side or would have adjourned to a kitchen for a shared pot of tea and a chat, and they all expected you to sort it out.

      And they could never understand that it wasn't your job. Sorting it out was a job for a good surveyor and a couple of lawyers, maybe. Your job was to quell the impulse to bang their stupid fat heads together, to ignore the affronted speeches of dodgy selfjustification, to get them to stop shouting and to get them off the street. Once that had been achieved, your job was over. You weren't some walking god, dispensing finely tuned natural justice. Your job was simply to bring back peace. - Terry Pratchett, Night Watch

      I've long thought that Pratchett should be compulsory reading in every police academy.

    23. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

      The unwise, reactionary, direction-less types who tend to attach themselves to any major movement are the biggest problem the Occupiers currently have.

      Yep. Because the 'occupy' movement is quite thoroughly unable or unwilling to deal with them - thoughtful people are asking why. Not so thoughtful people are blaming the media.
       

      Do you not notice how the media reports with glee the rapes, murders, etc. that occur on the Occupied territory?

      Why shouldn't they? That the 'occupy' movement can arrange for generators to recharge their smartphones and ad hoc wireless access points, but not for safety and security patrols in their encampments is very telling about their priorities.

    24. Re:This guy ever been beaten up before? by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The rest of what? People use the labels "communist," "hippie," and "socialist" as meaningless insults. Don't like what someone is saying/advocating? Call them one of those three ("pedophile" or "terrorist" might also suffice) names!

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
  2. Unfortunately the reverse is also true... by infolation · · Score: 5, Insightful

    With the proliferation of video and photographic 'evidence', people seem much more ready to believe an event didn't happen nowadays if there isn't visual 'smoking gun' evidence to prove it.

    1. Re:Unfortunately the reverse is also true... by Aryden · · Score: 2

      [proof or it didn't happen]

    2. Re:Unfortunately the reverse is also true... by Hentes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Which is a good thing. The public being sceptical about what they hear unless shown proof is a huge step forward.

    3. Re:Unfortunately the reverse is also true... by Genda · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sadly or perhaps frighteningly, there is a growing movement among police departments and the law establishment in general to criminalize filming police under any circumstance including the police committing criminal acts of violence. One of the great dangers we're now encountering is our government indulging in dark and immoral ventures and it can only participate in these ventures if its not being watched. The last administration used our fear and rage to twist our government into something truly unholy. The current administration hasn't seen fit to dismantle what was created and put things right. It is time for the American people to demand from all its leaders that our nation be returned to us the people, and that unfair influence through wealth and power and greedy self interest be mitigated,

      In a vital move towards that future, Government must become COMPLETELY TRANSPARENT... I no longer trust my government to act in my best interest (not that I ever did, but now I'm certain they are working against us), and unless I can see both hands all the time, I am deeply concerned that it labors busily, stealing my future and perhaps all our futures.

    4. Re:Unfortunately the reverse is also true... by Genda · · Score: 2

      It took over a billion dollars for Obama to become president and you're absolutely right, he clearly went to the highest bidder.

      The answer is to redesign our political process from the ground up. Starting with education. It should be taught in every school that it is a citizens highest responsibility to serve both by voting and doing his/her civic duties, and by running for office if there is something important they see that needs to be addressed for the greater good of the people.

      The next thing that should exist is a online central information repository for candidates maintained and managed by a nonpartisan organization whose members are changed regularly and frequently. The repository should contain comprehensive biographies on each person running for office, a grade for their performance if they are incumbents and the particulars behind every proposition showing up on the ballet. We should know who a candidate is affiliated with (if anyone.) Who his largest supporters are. When monied interests go all over the country and try to get laws passed that feather their nest (as several oil companies in Texas recently tried to do in California) the public should be informed so they can see just who's benefiting and who if anyone is getting the browner end of the proverbial stick.

      Campaigning should cost little or nothing so a wide range of candidates can participate, and none have to answer to contributors later. The cost of campaigns should initially be covered by a tax on those who don't vote. Ultimately, once more than 80% of the population get's into the habit, we can set up a tax on lobbyists to make certain the good they do exceeds the bad. The same folks who manage the Central Information Clearing House on each candidate should have a team to report to the news media how the candidates are acquitting themselves as future representatives. Of course this should be a nonpartison appraisal, and there could even be an appraisal from a conservative perspective and a more liberal to give folks several views of the candidates. The point is that there should be an abundance of information available upon which to base an informed selection.

      Finally, we remove all the special exemptions that allow representative to get rich or live like the wealthy while in office. The current exemption that members of Congress can practice insider trading without criminal repercussions even if that trading puts the representative in direct conflict with the best interests of the American people would be my first target. That members of Congress should enjoy the same health benefits as all Americans (as opposed to the very best and among the most expensive health programs in the world.) There are so many double standards and duplicitous exemptions that our representatives have seen fit to vote themselves, its time to expunge them all from our body of law. Also, we need to make it illegal for ex-representatives to become lobbyist and/or work for powerful monied interests in or around their old stomping ground, its just another way our legislators are being bought by the wealthy and the powerful. Instead we should provide resources for ex-representatives to share what they learn and what they believe in to young up and coming students of politics so that wisdom and acquired information can propagate and be used to serve all our best interests.

    5. Re:Unfortunately the reverse is also true... by Jeremi · · Score: 2

      Though even then people can claim its shopped

      If it's just one or two photos, sure. But when you have three dozen people all filming the same event from three dozen different angles, the claim that all the evidence was fabricated becomes a bit less credible.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
  3. agents provocateurs by khasim · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Look for more incidents involving agents provocateurs in future protests. It's easier to "justify" whatever actions are taken if they can show footage of a "protester" acting in an "unreasonable" fashion.

    The public footage is having a huge impact right now because people are seeing people like themselves at the protests and NOT causing problems ... and hearing the official reports contradicting the footage.

    1. Re:agents provocateurs by Moheeheeko · · Score: 2
      Right because, sitting on the ground arms behind your back while the cop takes out his can of pepper spray, holding it up and walking with it, showing it to the entire crowd before spraying you in the face untill the can is empty, is totally provoking him.

      Those bastards and their damn sitting.

    2. Re:agents provocateurs by causality · · Score: 2

      Look for more incidents involving agents provocateurs in future protests. It's easier to "justify" whatever actions are taken if they can show footage of a "protester" acting in an "unreasonable" fashion.

      The public footage is having a huge impact right now because people are seeing people like themselves at the protests and NOT causing problems ... and hearing the official reports contradicting the footage.

      This is what bothers me about the average person. If it isn't undeniably smacking them in the face, they have no clue how much and how often their media lies to them on a daily basis.

      People need to seriously wake the fuck up and they need to stop waiting for some leader to show them how. It is and has always been an individual realization based on a real love of truth.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    3. Re:agents provocateurs by Saxerman · · Score: 2

      It's actually even more complex than that. Police are now basically being required to do their own recording merely to provide evidence of their own side of the argument, to prevent any 'provocateurs' from rabble-rousing.

      This leads to pressure in law enforcement to deploy even more invasive surveillance. We could have officers then being required to keep their own personal cameras running constantly merely to prevent them from self blatantly self censoring footage that is not advantageous to their own point of view. And while I'm not strictly against police officers being under additional scrutiny, I'm not sure how I'd feel if every officer showing up to a public or domestic disturbance call needs to be wearing personal video surveillance. How much public privacy are we willing to sacrifice in order to keep everyone honest?

      --

      A steaming cup of soykaf would be real wiz right now.

  4. They are brave, but there's a difference by Quila · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The blacks and Tank Man couldn't be sure the government wouldn't kill them on purpose. They faced down the very real threat of death for participating in their movements.

    For the OWS movement, any deaths caused by the government will be accidental.

    1. Re:They are brave, but there's a difference by Riceballsan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      True, but accidental in a horrendous way. "We only intended to hurt him by bashing his head into the pavement with the club, we had no intention of killing him". I agree the death toll will be negligible if it even exists, but at least a few people have taken some serious beatings that could cause permanent damage

    2. Re:They are brave, but there's a difference by Nadaka · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You have far to much faith in the system. As long as this massive inequity exists these protests will continue. As long as these protests continue those in power will become increasingly forceful in suppression of freedom.

      There really are Americans publicly saying that they should just roll over these protesters with tanks and shoot all the dirty hippies without any fear.

    3. Re:They are brave, but there's a difference by ClioCJS · · Score: 4, Insightful
      like when veterans are hit in the head with a tear gas cannister on video by a polieman firing at them while they are already on the ground receiving medical attention? Yeah, total accident.

      Fuck you, and take your bullshit out the door with you.

      --
      -Clio
      Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
      Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
    4. Re:They are brave, but there's a difference by Zaphod+The+42nd · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is that very clearly neither the Republican party nor the Democratic party will face these issues. They're both part of the same partisan shell-game that instills apathy and just gets more and more corrupt. Voting for either party is just a distraction, instead what is happening right now is an absolute no-confidence in government, and we need to ditch BOTH of the existing parties. Down with the two party system.

      --
      GCS/MU/P d- s:- a-- C++++$ UL++ P+ L++ E+ W++ N o K- w--- O M+ V- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5- X R++ tv+ b++ DI++ D++ G+ e++ h-
    5. Re:They are brave, but there's a difference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The blacks and Tank Man couldn't be sure the government wouldn't kill them on purpose. They faced down the very real threat of death for participating in their movements.

      Not sure about the blacks, but it's not true with Tankman, even though I understand your general sentiment.

      I grew up in China, and was a freshman in college when Tankman emerged, so in a sense I was his contemporary. For better or for worse, the CCP had maintained a very effective propaganda up to that point, that the army and the people were a family, hence the name PLA, or "People's Liberation Army". There was a popular saying and it roughly translates: the relationship between the army and the people is like fish and the water. And this relationship went both ways, in that your average Chinese citizens genuinely admired the army, and the army genuinely loved the people.

      With that historical backdrop, I don't think Tankman had any fear of bodily harm or death at that particular moment, standing in front of the tanks. At the same time, I don't think the lead tank driver had any intention to shoot or run over the man. As a matter of fact, if you watch the entire video clip, you'll see the lead tank tried to maneuver around and pass the man, unsuccessfully. Essentially, you have these two kids (Tankman and tank driver), young, idealistic, naive, nothing personal with one another, and completely oblivious of the horror that's about to unfold merely a few hours later -- much like myself at that point in time.

      But again, the Tankman image is so powerful and (unintentionally) heroic that I suspect all the nuances and intricate undercurrent are forever lost especially to the western audience, much like many other iconic images in history.

    6. Re:They are brave, but there's a difference by AHuxley · · Score: 2

      http://articles.latimes.com/2011/nov/06/local/la-me-fullerton-20111106
      Don't worry their pensions are safe even if its permanent damage.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    7. Re:They are brave, but there's a difference by fishbowl · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Even that incident is totally different from the UC Davis one. Main point: Those particular individuals were in a place where they had a specific right to be because it was their domicile. Orders to vacate could not be lawfully given in the first place, at least not without specific and valid reasons (they were not trespassing, they were not blocking ingress or egress, or creating any other specific hazard.) They weren't under arrest, and there wasn't a warrant for their arrest or even a judicial process through which their arrest was sought. If the police had authority to make arrests, they could have done so with the handcuffs and 45ACPs. It is exactly _because_ they didn't have this authority that got Pike upset enough to cease being a law enforcement officer and become a vigilante, disobeying orders, ignoring California law and the policies and procedures of his department, and take out his aggressions against these individuals. He treated them as though they were the same people as some group of Oakland rioters or whatever. When the lawsuits inevitably come, the university is going to have to settle them quietly because there are serious risks they face if they have to admit either that they lied about not giving orders to use force, or if they have to admit that Pike disobeyed orders. Either way, ugly.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    8. Re:They are brave, but there's a difference by anagama · · Score: 2

      Most of the money the government transfers to others for free, doesn't go to dirty long hairs sitting in parks, it goes to clean cut silk ties in Park Ave.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    9. Re:They are brave, but there's a difference by Nadaka · · Score: 2

      As noble as your libertarian ideal is, it has been proven to fail. It failed in the 19th century. Our government is not the only power in the world. Corporate interests, plutocrats, foreign nations and states usurping the rights of their own citizens require a strong but ethical federal govornment capable of mitigating the damage done by those entities against the people of the united states of America.

      The things you object to me "wanting" in the second paragraph? Someone else happened to want those things...

      "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." - The Constitution

      I am in no way proposing a wealth tax. They get to spend and use their wealth just the same that they do now. What I want is for them to pay a fair progressive income tax and eliminate tax exemptions that are nothing less than welfare for the wealthy.

  5. Explanation of the protest by fragfoo · · Score: 5, Informative
    --
    Sig? Heil
  6. Ooooo, Infamy. by Culture20 · · Score: 2

    You inflict pain, I inflict infamy.

    That's nice. I will never meet or deal with the police officer who maced those protesters. I've already forgotten his name. When 90% of the population sees these things, they think "huh, sucks to be them. glad they're out there fighting the good fight and not me. What's for dinner?" When the sadists and psychopaths see them, they say to themselves "wow, they take the punishment and stay put for more."

    1. Re:Ooooo, Infamy. by RobinEggs · · Score: 4, Insightful

      and I hope he has a problematic life for the rest of his life, too. I hope he can't get a job or gets made fun of by 'the other bullies in blue' until he dies.

      I do understand that pepper spraying someone without cause is a violent crime, an insanely painful assault with occasional adverse reactions and even rare deaths, but how can you possibly advocate such a punishment?

      Our theory of social wrong and our justice system are at least in theory based on reformation: people are punished in hope that they 'go forth and sin no more', to use the biblical phrasing. People are fired for gross misconduct at work and left to seek another job, not ostracized for life. Criminals are prosecuted, punished and then released under appropriate restrictions, not destroyed and left to suffer. If Lt. Pike is both a criminal and a bad employee why is it not sufficient to see him fired, bared from law enforcement, and prosecuted? Why do you want his life to be over? And what kind of sick bastard are you that you'd consider letting him continue working in law enforcement simply so he could endure the mockery of his co-workers? Leave a man who committed a violent crime in a position of physical authority, and then make his life steadily worse? Where do you think that's going to end?

      You're asking us to ruin a man's life rather than give him a second chance, to torture him forever rather than rehabilitate and restrict him. Your options are that he endure constant abuse at work or be unable to work at all? Why not just shoot him?

      How is this vengeful destruction of this man's dignity and potential any better than than what he's done to the protesters? How can you call yourself American when you advocate vengeance and lifelong suffering in the name of justice?

      If 'his type is what is wrong with America' then what are you? Do you believe you're what's right with America?!

    2. Re:Ooooo, Infamy. by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2

      but how can you possibly advocate such a punishment?

      cops have the power and ability to instantly end your life or even 'just' make it unlivable if they so choose.

      because they wield such high amounts of life-ruining (and life-ending) power, they should be held to a higher standard.

      if the thugs in blue would actually have to FEAR something above them (ie, the law) then they'd think twice about tazing, spraying, beating, even shooting. there is far too much cop-initiated violence and it mostly goes unpunished. since there is no punishment, the behavior continues.

      if they realized that they would get severely punished, they MIGHT think twice.

      zero tolerance is used on us, the citizens. lets finally have some parity; especially for those who have such special privs in the world.

      he needs to be made an example. I really have zero sympathy for him. bullies like him only learn the hard way.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    3. Re:Ooooo, Infamy. by sjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And then very quietly, a shift happens. They see a cop who seems a touch nervous and somewhere in the back of their mind, they think danger. Then they think they shouldn't have to think "danger" when they see a cop. After a while, they tell their kids to avoid cops entirely, even if they're lost. Slowly but surely, the population comes to think of the police as an enemy. An invading force they don't want in their neighborhood.

      Minorities are way ahead of the curve on that one for various good reasons, but the rest of the population is catching up.

      Even though I obey the law, the more stuff like this I see, the more I regard the police as a potential enemy.

    4. Re:Ooooo, Infamy. by TangoMargarine · · Score: 2

      *Sergeant Pepper

      Admittedly, it is a hard word to spell.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    5. Re:Ooooo, Infamy. by Lotana · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I wish to have mod points to mods to raise the parent post even higher. It is good to see that there are at least some people here who see the difference between justice and revenge.

      It is appauling to see to what height of bloodthirstiness people work themselves into. My opinion is that this is a result of very conservative culture and the sheer feer that Americans subject themselves to (Especially since 9/11). They are afraid of their government, corporations, foreign cultures and different religions. From what I read on Slashdot and elsewhere, quite a sizable percentage of the population own and train in the use of firearms because they fear to walk on the streets unarmed due to the perception that criminals are everywhere and house invasions to be commonplace. This gives me the impression that Americans are frightened of even each other.

      And the result of all that buildup of fear is disproportional lashing out at any perceived threat. An analogy would be like a person with mild arachnophobia finding a very scary, poisonous-looking spider in the evening in his bedroom. He can try to capture it to release it outside, but he is too frightened of the possibility that it might get back in again. So he would thoroughly kill it just to be able to sleep comfortably.

      When you are greatly afraid, why would you trust mental health facilities to rehabilitate the sexual offender, when permanently isolating, driving him to suicide or execution would bring a guaranteed removal of the threat?

      Very sadly even much less hideous crimes result in backlashes. Apperently even if you never hurt anyone but get caught in the act of using illicit drugs results in you being sent to prison. I also find it shocking how prisons are not viewed as a place of rehabilitation but as a way to inflict vengence. I base that on the attitude of how prison rape is viewed not a problem, but as a source humour and almost endoursement since it is people who are accused of crimes that are the victums.

      Of course everything above is just my personal opinion and how I explain to myself the reason for such harshness of the American justice system. Another explanation I found was in a freely available, easy to read book by Bob Altemeyer called The Authoritarians. Trouble is that you really can't tell if it is just another biased opinion.

  7. Transparency Ought to Go Further by Phoenix666 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We all know the 1% (or "powers that be," if you prefer) are tracking us now and will continue to expand the scope and depth of how they track us.

    But we in the 99% (or "little people/hoi poloi/peasants," if you prefer) have access to most of the same technology at an affordable price point. There is no technical reason we cannot track them as much or more than they can us, especially if we use our vastly superior numbers to crowd-source the most difficult part of tracking: making sense of the deluge of data.

    If we repeat what we did with searching for Steve Fossett's plane using Google Earth crossed with FoldIt and SETI@home we can develop a real-time picture of exactly what the 1% are doing, where, and when. That's a tremendous amount of intelligence we can leverage in many ways.

    So, for example, if we map radio transponders used by our friendly neighborhood shock troo, er, police then we can equal the spying they're already doing on peaceful protesters (Google "NYPD spying protest groups." What would they do if we knew exactly where they keep their LRAD cannons and pepper spray depots and stage sit-ins at the entrances before they can deploy? What if every single Lt. John Pike gets followed home by the protesters who surround his home, quietly sitting and linking arms?

    Or, more to the point, what if we made sure that the puppet masters never have a moment's peace and that they know we all know them exactly for the scum they are?

    That, I believe, is what needs to happen next to break the back of this beast.

    --
    Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
  8. One UCD Student's view by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am posting in anon-mode for reasons that will become obvious.

    As terrible as police brutalty is, and as unjustified as the pepper spray incident obviously was, many of us UCD students are still not really on-board with the protesters now occupying our campus. While there are many students, a large percentage of the protesters are outsiders who have come from Berkeley, LA and further. They are camping on our lawn and drumming up support for various causes that our mildly conservative campus is not fully in support of (Davis typically serves the people from the central valley of CA). Our quad is now a mesh of ragtag tents, a pipe-frame geodesic dome, and dozens of media vans. Personally, I just want to do my homework and hopefully graduate so I can move out of california and find a job.

    Is tuition high? Yes. Should taxes be more equitable? Yes. Is blasting reggae music till 11:30 PM right next to our library going to effect those changes? Probably not.

    To end on a quip; protesting for the right to protest is like having sex for virginity.

    1. Re:One UCD Student's view by petteyg359 · · Score: 2

      Your quip is bass-ackwards.

      Doing M for M
      is like
      Doing A for Z

      You're comparing two like things and saying they're the same as two opposing things. If you're really a UCD student, you need to go talk to your advisor about taking some courses in basic logic.

    2. Re:One UCD Student's view by jpapon · · Score: 2

      You say "socialistic" like it's a word, or as if you know what socialism really is. You seem to think that socialism and capitalism are mutually exclusive. They aren't.

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    3. Re:One UCD Student's view by erilane · · Score: 5, Informative

      I am a UCD almnus (class of 2007) and classifying the student body as "mildly conservative" is not accurate. Nor is the claim that most students come from the central valley. Most students come from the San Francisco Bay area or other population centers around the state, and most students, like college students everywhere, are liberal-leaning. I agree that most protests do not effect the changes they strive for, but I don't think the "right to protest" is something you should give away so casually. You pay the salaries of the people who assaulted your classmates and you don't seem to care. There is some form of protest on the quad virtually every week, and only recently have our campus police forces (across the US, not just Davis) started breaking them up.

    4. Re:One UCD Student's view by evanbd · · Score: 3, Funny

      To end on a quip; protesting for the right to protest is like having sex for virginity.

      Let me know when you find a better way of making new virgins.

    5. Re:One UCD Student's view by sco08y · · Score: 2

      In what way is OWS not part of the 99%? You're claiming the hippies are the top 1% earners in America?

      wut?

      Fortunately, since you have to fill out detailed information when you're arrested, and since OWS is basically a crime wave, we've got plenty of data. Turns out they're significantly wealthier, whiter and more educated than the average American. source.

    6. Re:One UCD Student's view by Zaphod+The+42nd · · Score: 4, Informative

      Turns out they're significantly wealthier, whiter and more educated than the average American.

      Do you understand percentages? Above average is still included in 99% ...

      --
      GCS/MU/P d- s:- a-- C++++$ UL++ P+ L++ E+ W++ N o K- w--- O M+ V- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5- X R++ tv+ b++ DI++ D++ G+ e++ h-
  9. Re:Moral equivalence not withstanding by jpapon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    because the cop used weak sauce pepper spray and casually doused them

    Cops shouldn't be "casually dousing" any group of students assembled in a park, no matter how "weak sauce" the pepper spray is. Perhaps the resulting video was a little melodramatic, but the fact that you think it is okay for police to pepper spray citizens in a park shows you for the fascist that you really are. I hope you enjoy your anonymity, you pig.

    --
    -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
  10. Video bites are no better than sound bites by DerekLyons · · Score: 4, Insightful

    From the summary:

    "'What's new is that now the perception war occurs simultaneously with the physical struggle. There's almost parity,' writes Andrew Sprung. 'You have a truncheon or gun, I have a camera. You inflict pain, I inflict infamy.'"

    No, what you inflict is spin - because all you have to is show a carefully focused video showing the police swinging their truncheons or spraying pepper spray, and those who believe video bites represent the entire truth will defend your interpretation, and forward it, and 'like' it, etc... You'll hang 'em in the court of public opinion, but that's much more important than reality.

    1. Re:Video bites are no better than sound bites by marcosdumay · · Score: 2

      You mean that, before the policeman took a while showing the spray can to the people, and spayed them on the eyes, without any display of violence from their part, something important happened that is not displayed on the video?

      Would you care to tell what is that important part of the truth that isn't represented on the video? I mean, how can the policeman be threatened if during the entire video there wasn't a single threatening movement from the students?

    2. Re:Video bites are no better than sound bites by itchythebear · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You make a very important point about how video bites don't always show exactly what happend, and can often appear to support the party who was actually in the wrong. However, this does not apply to this specific case.

      Many videos that show the event start well before the actual pepper spraying occurs and continue well afterwards. Additionally, the students who were sprayed were simply sitting down, not resisting arrest. The students should have just been arrested, pepper spraying was totally unneeded.

      --
      If what I just said sounded like a troll, it was probably just a failed attempt at humor.
  11. Re:of course, a little less moving... by RazzleFrog · · Score: 2

    Gandhi came from a wealth family, too. Their background and (sometimes flawed) methods doesn't change the validity of their complaint.

  12. I don't think you understood that. by khasim · · Score: 5, Informative

    Right because, sitting on the ground arms behind your back while the cop takes out his can of pepper spray, holding it up and walking with it, showing it to the entire crowd before spraying you in the face untill the can is empty, is totally provoking him.

    The point of the "agent provocateur" is that he works WITH the authorities while POSING as one of the protesters.

    So when the calm protesters are engaged in non-violent protests, the agent provocateur becomes violent. That "violence" is used to "justify" the violence against the non-violent protesters.

    And it is that one "violent protester" who is shown in the media as an example of how "unreasonable" the protesters (as a group) are.

  13. panopticon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The pervasive presence of cameras does not, by itself make a panipticon. The theory of the Panopticon is that the prisoners self regulate behavior because they are unaware of whether they are being observed, because the guard in the tower is hidden. While omnicient surveilance is a big concern, it is more often the visible presence of police at protests that keep people's behavior controlled.

    The interesting thing about this is that protestors' behavior is more beholden to their chosen audince than the authority figures. There are a mass of bystanders who could obviously physically step in and stop the cop from spraying their freinds. Its easy to do, but protestors are performing an act of nonviolence and no one wants to deviate from that performance.

  14. Father Shot History That Looks More Than Current by InitZero · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My father was a college student and newspaper photographer in Ohio circa May 1970. His photos of student protest and civil disobedience remind me of what I'm seeing with the Occupy movement.

    A year or more ago, I commented that I didn't think the Tea Party would have a long-term affect because they weren't motivated enough to burn down an ROTC building nor were the police scared enough of them to hit them with tear gas.

    Agree with them or not. Understand them or not. The Occupy movement is going to leave a mark upon this country because they are willing to have skin in the game.

    Cheers, Matt

  15. Re:Tiananmen Square not a good example by dargaud · · Score: 2

    the Occupy movement doesn't really have a tangible goal that is achievable in the short term

    Pray tell me why taxing Wall St transactions should be an unachievable goal ?

    --
    Non-Linux Penguins ?
  16. Re:Tiananmen Square not a good example by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 5, Insightful

    oh, you are so wrong!

    one very real thing that got accomplished: the world is seeing a new side of america.

    for the last 10+ yrs, america was the brunt of jokes and the poster child for anti-freedom in major world powers. we invaded, we killed, we were mercenaries for oil and big business. to be called 'an american' by someone overseas was getting to be an insult.

    things have now changed. or, are in change.

    overseas, I sense people are cheering us on. they see that its our LEADERS that are fucking us over. americans are not evil to the core (like many seem to want to believe and label us) but we, like so many other countries, have lost the war of control over our own government. but we are at least trying to get it back.

    the world is starting to give us a little tiny bit of credit for that. and they are showing support in their OWN occupy protests! that's proof, right there.

    we are [re]spreading freedom. from the bottom-up. and 'they' see that. it won't do a damned thing now; but we are planting seeds. the kids today who see this MAY think twice when its their turn to run things.

    I expect zero things to change in my lifetime. I'm old. but I'm somewhat hopeful about the future (for you guys) given this refreshing new spirit I'm seeing.

    --

    --
    "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
  17. Re:of course, a little less moving... by Riceballsan · · Score: 3, Informative

    Some not all, actually if I recall there was sort of an unofficial line with wealthier people on one side, and less wealthy on another, another thing to note, not everyone with a $400 phone is a self entitled ass, many OWS protestors are fresh college graduates (IE people who have racked up enough student loan debt to keep them in a position of paying off loans until there 40's IF they actually can get something better then a minimum wage job). I don't know the origin of the quote but someone said "I am angry with the previous generation, they continued to push me saying if I didn't go to college, study and keep my grades up I would wind up working at McDonalds, now that I've done all those things and acquired $15,000 of debt, they now say I'm a self entitled jerk because I don't want to work at McDonalds. In other words many of the protestors are just off of the free ride, last point where parents cover you, and hit the point where everything they have worked hard for, they finally could be independent, but the economy and job market are in such chaos, they have nowhere to go but down.

  18. Re:Tiananmen Square by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    [citation needed]

    Last I heard nobody is rolling tanks over protestors in Sweden or Denmark, to name two mixed capitalist-socialist countries of the sort most OWS protestors tend to favor as a model for a more equitable society. Stop believing the crap you're hearing in your echo chamber. The rank-and-file OWS protestor is no more a Mao-loving communist than the rank-and-file tea party protestor is a redneck racist.

  19. Re:Moral equivalence not withstanding by Professr3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you consider pepper spray to be "weaksauce", there are a few people who were still coughing up blood 45 minutes afterward who'd like to have a word with you. There are a few marines who might want to tell you about their war veteran friend who was shot in the head and almost killed, while the police tossed concussion grenades at the people trying to get him to medical care. The fact that the methods used "aren't as bad as X" doesn't make them any less heinous.

  20. The legitimate projection of force. by khasim · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Exactly.

    The general populace understands that the State is the only entity that has a legitimate right to project force. Whether via the military (hopefully outside the country) or the police (inside the country). I include the CIA / FBI / etc in those categories.

    Anyone else using force (particularly outside their social group) is IMMEDIATELY identified as a criminal. A threat to society.

    There may be problems in society. And the majority of the population may even AGREE with you about those problems. But they do NOT want to have to deal with non-State violence. They see enough of that (and its effects) from criminals.

    1. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by Genda · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Even from "State Authority" we demand that violence be tempered and that force be fair and proportional to the threat. When a Bull Conner unleashes attack dogs on people quietly walking or a National Guardman shoots an unarmed girl with a high powered rifle standing in protest on a campus lawn or Police assault people up to and including deadly force for no apparent cause, we are rightly dumbstruck and appalled. Because they have the charge of using force, they must be all the more responsible for using it as the last possible way of managing a circumstance, and at that in strict measure according to the threat.

      Mayor Bloomberg had terrible force unleashed on the Occupy protestors. He knew this is his last term and he would have to return to Wallstreet after his term was over, so we can all clearly see whose interest he protected and protected savagely. This is exactly the kind of misuse of power, that makes good Americans want to take their government back from from death grip of the 1%. Sadly some are willing to use violence, and sad as that may be, it too is something that is sometimes justifiable.

    2. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by blackest_k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Pepperspray is not the minimal level of force. The minimal level of force would have been to pick the protesters up and move them arrest them whatever. The use of pepper spray was to instil fear into the protesters.

      Now if this was one officer getting out of hand then his colleagues should have restrained him on the other hand if that behaviour is state sanctioned then perhaps it is a crisis of democracy.
         

    3. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by Genda · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You have to put this into context... Students around the country are being priced out of an education, while banks are getting filthy rich enslaving entire generations of young people with crushing debt attempting to chase the American Dream. All this happening while School Chancellors are retiring on multimillion dollar pensions and salaries that are growing astronomically every year. When such a vanishingly few seem to grow wealthy on the backs of those they should be serving how can you honestly say students shouldn't exercise their fair and legal right to protest publicly.

      Simply blasting children with pepper spray not only did not solve the problem, but the video of the event so inflamed public opinion that all involved will either lose their jobs or face criminal prosecution. The use of force in this circumstance is completely unwarranted, and people will do hard time for using it. By your logic, we could start macing j-walkers and parking violators. I'm certain you'd only need to be maced once to forever find committing that crime unpalatable. How about children being unruly in the classroom, forget the Ritalin, let's just mace the little buggers, that'll make them behave. Have you ever been pepper sprayed? Do you actually think that is an appropriate response to people quietly sitting down?

    4. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 4, Informative
      --
      Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
    5. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by rastilin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Did you see the video? They were very scary weren't they? Sitting down on the ground like that with their arms pinned and not moving. So scary that the officer felt the need to prance around spraying them while his mates turned their backs to the protesters.

      It's a problem because in a first world country, people expect better than to have violence used against them for not running scared when the officers arrive. Police are supposed to work together with people to keep the community together; not come when those in power call them to put the hurt on people who're being difficult.

      That's the crisis. What makes it worse is that the officers involved were so relaxed that they don't appear to be worried about the protesters at all; they used pain just because it was easier.

      --
      How do you kill that which has no life?
    6. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by dougmc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      but the video of the event so inflamed public opinion that all involved will either lose their jobs or face criminal prosecution. The use of force in this circumstance is completely unwarranted, and people will do hard time for using it.

      Are you talking about the same video? The cop who pepper sprayed the sitting protesters?

      Hard time, really? The protesters who were arrested will probably have their charges dropped. The cop is likely to get some sort of discipline applied -- he might even lose his job, depending on how badly they want to scapegoat him. The people who gave the order will receive no official punishment at all. And nobody involved (except maybe the protesters) will be charged with any actual crimes.

      This isn't the first time police have used excessive force and it was caught on video. How such cases are handled has been worked out already -- and it only involves criminal charges in the most extreme situations (and this isn't one of them. Nobody was killed or raped or robbed, for example.)

    7. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by EdIII · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Sadly some are willing to use violence, and sad as that may be, it too is something that is sometimes justifiable

      Justifiable violence is my fear. Passive resistance, civil disobedience, and jury nullification are all wonderful examples of making your point without violence and exposing the tyranny and rationale of those in power.

      However, I can fully admit that if it came down to it, I would kill another human being without a seconds thought if it was required to protect me, my friends, or my family. If rational discourse is not possible, and the environment so extreme that conflict resolution requires deadly force, I am going to survive.

      I do truly admire those that have the courage to be passive and forgiving even while dying painful deaths at the hands of others. I just don't have it.

      Sadly, I think we are heading towards justifiable violence as the only means to take back control of our countries and our lives. Protests and legislative bodies are accomplishing next to nothing and the situation is getting so bad, that my only choice will ultimately be violence or incarceration.

      As for leaving the US, just where would I go? Every country seems to be getting progressively worse and worse for their citizens, or is in economic slavery to the 1st world super powers.

    8. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by pluther · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I see a lot of people claiming that the students were breaking the law by not moving when they were told to.

      They may have been, but it's not clear that they were. Students at a University are not breaking the law by being on the grounds. There may be a school rule about erecting tents (though, at the time the pepper-spraying incident occured, all the tents had already been removed), but it's unlikely to be a law.

      Is disobeying a police officer's order to surrender your first-amendment right to peacably gather and petition the government for a redress of greviences against the law in Davis, California? I doubt it.

      But, even if they were, how come these same people who always pipe up with the claim that the protesters deserve it because they were breaking the law never also point out that the police were breaking the law by using pepper spray on them? California law is quite clear about when an officer can use force: To stop a fleeing suspect who is subject to arrest, and to eliminate a threat.

      At the incident in UC Davis, Lt. Pike was neither eliminating a threat (there was quite obviously not threat of violence by anyone other than the police), nor was anybody fleeing.

      So how come the approbation over the students who may or may not have been breaking a law, but none over the police who quite definitely were?

      Assuming New York's laws are similar to California's, Anthony Bologna was also breaking the law when macing protesters when they were corralled and contained.

      --
      If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
    9. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by skine · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, there is precedent in case law that pepper-spraying nonviolent protesters is assault.

      http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1332957.html

    10. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by Nadaka · · Score: 4, Informative

      There is now at least 1 person murdered by the police use of brutality against OWS.

      http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/22/pregnant-seattle-protester-miscarries-after-being-kicked-pepper-sprayed/

    11. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by bpkiwi · · Score: 2

      What happens (hopefully) is that next month when there is another peaceful sit-in and the university staff call the police and say "hey I don't like how those poor students are complaining in public, it makes me look bad to my wealthy friends, get rid of them for me", the police say "sorry no - if I do that I will lose my job".

    12. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Pepperspray is not the minimal level of force. The minimal level of force would have been to pick the protesters up and move them arrest them whatever. The use of pepper spray was to instil fear into the protesters.

      Isn't there a term for the act of using violence to instill fear in a group of people?

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    13. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by reg · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you watch the videos, you see that Lt Pike instructs the students (who are blocking his exit with detainees, i.e obstructing the police - but they were trying to get arrested because they wanted to force the cops to arrest everyone) that if they don't move when the police car which they are bringing gets there, then he will shoot them.

      That is not a legal order. He can only say "I will arrest you, and I might hurt you if you resist". He also doesn't keep his word: he pepper spays them instead of shooting them, and he does so before they have an opportunity to move out of the way of for the police car. Moreover, he prevents the other officers from trying to move/detain them.

      Regards
      -Jeremy

    14. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 5, Informative

      Did you see the video? They were very scary weren't they? Sitting down on the ground like that with their arms pinned and not moving. So scary that the officer felt the need to prance around spraying them while his mates turned their backs to the protesters.

      Here is the video.

      He even shows the pepper spray can to everyone (including the cameras), and he goes back and forth along the chain twice as he sprays them. And then he goes around once more and sprays individual people who didn't get the full thing on the first go one by one. Interestingly enough, even though the guys at the other end were already seeing what's coming for them, only one guy tried to move away...

      Of course, this was completely and utterly pointless. Pepper spray is a tool given to police to subdue violent people without resorting to lethal force, or to make the crowd back off; it's not there to make their job easier when dealing with non-violent law-breakers. Furthermore, in this case it didn't even make the job easier - if their goal was to move the people aside so that the walkway is no longer blocked, pepper spraying them from all sides while they are sitting is not going to achieve this; what you end up with is a bunch of sitting people vomiting because of pepper spray, only contributing to the mess. Finally, as seen on video, after pepper spraying, the cops just come there and pick them up and drag away one by one - which they could do just as well from the get go.

      It is clear that the use of pepper spray was not in any way, shape or form to stop those people from breaking a law, but was an arbitrary extra-judicial punishment imposed by the cop in question on the protesters for ignoring his command to move away. The very theatrical way in which it is delivered only makes it this much more evidenced.

    15. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by dougmc · · Score: 2

      Reading the ruling, it would seem that what really happened is that the court said that the officers are not entitled to qualified immunity, which isn't quite the same as charging (and convicting!) them of the criminal charge of assault (and/or battery.)

      Indeed, the link you gave doesn't even include the word "assault". I'm no lawyer, but it sounds like the case in question was a civil case, not even a criminal case against the police.

      The reality is that it's very unlikely that anybody is going to even be charged, let alone convicted, of pepper spraying (or giving the order to do so, or supporting it) the protesters there. Juries really don't like to convict police officers of what could be seen as simply doing their job, and DAs only want to pursue cases they think they can win -- and rarely do they want to go after police anyways except in the most egregious of cases -- and the only really egregious aspect of this case is how many video cameras were on the guy. (It was bad, don't get me wrong -- but nobody was killed, beaten to near death, robbed or raped, and those are the sorts of things that tend to get cops nailed if there's enough evidence -- and by some strange coincidence (since the evidence is often controlled by the police themselves), there rarely is.)

    16. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by Amouth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      which reinforces one law for the rulers and one law for the ruled.. i can assure you that if the person the officer sprayed had done that to the officer or even retaliated in the exact same manner (pepper spraying the officer) that person would be doing jail time and there wouldn't be any questions about it.

      by not prosecuting the officers and not punishing them for the crime you are giving other officers a very real affirmation that they can get away with the same actions.

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    17. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by dougmc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      which reinforces one law for the rulers and one law for the ruled.. i can assure you that if the person the officer sprayed had done that to the officer or even retaliated in the exact same manner (pepper spraying the officer) that person would be doing jail time and there wouldn't be any questions about it.

      by not prosecuting the officers and not punishing them for the crime you are giving other officers a very real affirmation that they can get away with the same actions.

      If it was up to me, officers would indeed be prosecuted for things like this. I'd be inclined to give them some more leeway than normal citizens when they are clearly doing their job -- but that leeway would have limits, and this would have passed it.

      But it's not up to me.

      Pointing out what is likely to happen and explaining why is not the same as supporting it.

    18. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by wikdwarlock · · Score: 2

      Yes, two types in fact, depending on whether the government supports them (i.e. "patriot", "freedom fighter", "revolutionary") or the government does not support them (i.e. "terrorist", "enemy combatant", "extremist").

      --

      "I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer." -Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
    19. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      This is the problem with arming the police, rather than the tool of last resort it becomes the default way to handle a situation. Not just in the US either, in the UK we recently saw a policeman put his hand through a barrier and fire a tazer pretty much blindly at a group of people standing a couple of meters back from it and not attacking the police in any way. Fortunately he missed, although it didn't stop him pressing the trigger over and over again.

      Someone could easily have died there, but the police don't get many opportunities to play with their toys so whenever they are allowed to take them out there is a frenzy of random violence. A couple of years back PC Simon Harwood murdered a random person innocently walking home from work by hitting him with a metal club. Despite the fact that it was all caught on camera, Harwood had his face covered, ID number hidden and attacked the guy from behind with no warning and for no apparent reason* it took years of legal wrangling and multiple enquiries to get him charged with manslaughter.

      * (other than that he enjoys clubbing people, which seems to be a prerequisite for joining the police these days)

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    20. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by SirGarlon · · Score: 2

      The use of force in this circumstance is completely unwarranted, and people will do hard time for using it.

      Methinks you have too much faith in the "justice' system. For example, the National Guardsmen who fired on unarmed protesters at Kent State (Ohio) in 1970, killing four, were all acquitted. Rodney King's attackers were acquitted of assault charges, as another example.

      In practice, while I wouldn't say police and other authorities are totally above the law, there is abundant evidence that the law has much less force when applied to them than when applied to "little people" (citizens like you and me). Police get away with murder all the time.

      And people wonder why I don't trust authority.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    21. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by Toze · · Score: 2

      Only if you hold that the fetus is human. Which /I/ do, but many don't. Afaik, the federal government doesn't, which is why abortion is legal in America. She can claim assault, maybe, but not murder.

      --
      No OS on the planet can protect itself from a user with the admin password. - Yvan256
    22. Re:The legitimate projection of force. by EdIII · · Score: 2

      No you won't. I would kill to protect my family and perhaps my friends, but I would not kill to protect my own life. Everyone has to die, not everyone has to kill.

      Yes I would.

      Like I said, I don't have the strength to let somebody kill me without fighting back. There is a difference between cowardice and resolve. If you can really allow yourself to die without taking that person's life, you are a better human being than I.

  21. Sheep for Vegetarianism by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 2

    In the present, police departments are already arresting people for video tapping them.

  22. Yes, accident by Quila · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No intent to kill.

    The Chinese shot them, drove over them with tanks. The Democrat KKK killed civil rights activists with impunity under the tacit approval of local governments, even having victims handed to them by the police (who were often KKK themselves anyway). Khadaffi used snipers and helicopter gunships to kill dozens of people in just one protest. The protesters in Syria know full well their protesting is very likely to be deadly, with thousands dead so far.

    An OWS protester has no real fear for his life in comparison to them.

  23. Re:Tiananmen Square not a good example by bolthole · · Score: 2
    What has changed? what is "in change"?

    Protests like this change nothing , in the big scheme of things. They dont threaten the status quo politically,and they dont threaten it physically.

    Replace "damn hippies" with "useless hippies", and it would be more accurate.

    There are only two things that really effect change:

    1. When "the person in charge" decides to do things differently

    2. when a large group of people decide to bring their guns to forcibly change who "the person in charge" is.

    Look at all the various regime changes lately in the middle east. How many happened through "peaceful demonstrations"? How many happened because weapons got involved?

    How did the soviet union change into what it is today? By force.

    People think that's because "that's the East, and we're the West". But it's actually the same here as well. Politicians only do big changes, when their power is threatened. A bunch of people "protesting" does not do that in any way.

    The US is held captive by a duopoly of regimes. They are basically "frenemies", taking turns in keeping power for "the 1%". They will never willingly "vote in" changes to take away power for themseles. So all these idiotic "Protests" accomplish pretty much nothing. Especially due to the fact that they pride themselves for having "no organization" and "no goals".

    In contrast, the tea party could theoretically attain some significant level of regime change, if it kept momentum, by gradually replacing more and more "career politicians", with real people. However, it will most likely never achieve enough of a percentage to seriously change anything either, given that it would require a majority of voters, to vote in a majority of tea party candidates, and half the voters are Democrats who seem to be against anything but Democrat candidates.

    "My party, right or wrong", has become the new "My country, right or wrong".

  24. Re:Father Shot History That Looks More Than Curren by w3woody · · Score: 2

    It also helps that the protesters are playing an asymmetrical game with reporters who are sympathetic to their cause.

    Meaning the various transgressions taking place in the Occupy movement (the rapes, the thefts, the public masturbation, shitting on cop cars, lobbing human waste at street vendors who don't give them freebees, etc) are all being ignored and will be ignored because they don't play into the story of the downtrodden standing up to The Man. But the handful of cops who lose their cool and snap, or the frightened police officer who suddenly discharges his weapon when it wasn't called for--that is what will be reported ad-infinitum until it becomes the only reality that anyone remembers.

    The panopticon won't matter, simply because with more information we don't get more truth; we just get a flood that more people will tune out. Oddly in the flood of information it will become easier, not harder, for the spinmeisters to weave a tale that their target audience will eat up without question.

    Worse, because each of us have conformation bias, we'll tend to throw out the ten thousand images that don't confirm our bias, while clinging onto the one image that does as the grain of truth in the flood of lies.

  25. HEADWATERS FOREST DEFENSE v. COUNTY OF HUMBOLDT by maxx_entropy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The Ninth Circuit has already ruled on this sort of situation.. the courts will and must revoke the police's qualified immunity against claims of excessive force. Let the lawsuits begin: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1332957.html

  26. Re:Wrong by rahvin112 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They were committing a misdemeanor by blocking a SIDEWALK. You're argument is akin to arguing that it's OK to pepper spray someone for Jaywalking. What the officer did was assault under the color of authority. That he warned them before he indiscriminately sprayed them and the crowd doesn't change the fact that he assaulting individuals who were not a threat. Pepper spray and Tasers have their place, unfortunately, but it's not to spray a bunch of protesters engaged in a non-violent misdemeanor. The purpose of Pepper spray and Tasers is to replace the truncheon and gun in violent situations where the VIOLENT suspect can be subdued rather than shot or beat into restraints.

    Unfortunately the effectiveness of these weapons and that they don't generally cause long term damage has caused police to begin using them as payback weapons. Used to inflict pain for disobedience rather than to stop a violent situation where life threatening measures would be called for. What that officer did was nothing short of assault. They could have pulled those people apart by hand, it would have taken time and been tiring but if they wanted them gone that bad they could have done it. Not a single protester threatened those officers with violence and the use of pepper spray only constituted assault. It was used to punish the protesters for refusing to comply.

    I'll point out that in 1997 some protesters chained themselves together (with hardened steel pipe to make it even harder to separate them) and the cops selectively( as in not indiscriminately) dabbed their eyes (only the eyelids) with pepper spray swabs, the courts later ruled it was a violation of the 4th amendment. I'll say it one last time, the reason people are outraged is that the cop assaulted under the color of authority every protester there and he should be charged with the upgraded assault charge that carries for every single protester and bystander that got sprayed. Under no circumstance should he ever be allowed to be a peace officer in the state of California again.

  27. Re:We will repeat ourself once for your benefit: by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

    They don't like the tuition hike, go to another school

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  28. Re:Moral equivalence not withstanding by Burning1 · · Score: 2

    weak sauce pepper spray

    Law enforcement grade pepper spray ranks from 500,000 to 2,000,000 on the Scoville heat scale, meaning that it's detectable by taste in a solution of 1 part pepper spray to 500,000+ parts water. For comparison, your average Habenaro pepper ranks 100,000-350,000 on the same scale. The spiciest Chili ever grown ranks at about 1,200,000 on the scale.

    Being a bit of a spice lover, I cook with Habanero peppers on a pretty regular basis. I can say that 4 hours after cooking a dinner, washing my hands multiple times, and rinsing with a sterile saline solution, the resedue from the Habanero peppers is usually enough to cause severe pain and temporary blindness when I remove my contact lenses (blindness is induced by watering of the eyes, and pain caused by opening them. I can still see light if I keep my eyes open.)

    Weak-sauce Tabasco ranks at about 3500-8000 on the scoville scale. So, if you're the kind of person who finds Tabasco to be at all spicy, I want you to imagine having a solution 250 times stronger than the tabasco applied directly to your eyes, nose, and mouth. Then tell me how weak that stuff is.

  29. Re:of course, a little less moving... by Burning1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    You may be thinking of the Cracked.com article: "5 ways we ruined the occupy wall street generation." Good article, and definitely worth a read.

  30. Maybe. by khasim · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Your problem is, and I have this information directly from people who participated in this very same activity in the 1960s, ...

    Maybe. But I think the situation may be a bit different today.

    ... is that the unwise, reactionary, direction-less types, as well as those looking to party, do drugs, and hook-up with the opposite sex, are 99% of your protest numbers.

    There are probably better places to "do drugs" that a place with, literally, dozens of cops standing around you. Who can come in at any time and knock your tent over.

    The same with "hook-up with the opposite sex". Not to mention that the ratio is rather slanted to males. Unless you're a woman looking for a guy ... in a cold tent ... in a public place ... with lots of cops around. And while I'm sure that those women do exist, I think we've wandered into fantasy territory.

    The party people, sure. As long as there's a party. But there are other parties out there. In warm places. With a lot lower police presence (because the cops are all at the protest).

    Running a fine Kitchen and giving out lots of free stuff at the Comfort Tent gave OWS the appearance of numbers far beyond the true reality of the dedicated.

    Again, maybe. They've claimed that the cops were pushing the homeless and regular vagrants to the protest. So there is at least some people there who would not be called "dedicated" to the general cause.

    On the other hand, not many people would choose to live in a cold tent in NYC if they had any other options. So those who aren't "dedicated" are indicative of the overall problem.

  31. Re:Pepper Spray IS 'non-violent' law enforcement by Holi · · Score: 2

    Pepper spray is NOT non-violent law enforcement. it is Non-Lethal, A very big difference.

    --
    Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
  32. Re:Moral equivalence not withstanding by couchslug · · Score: 2

    It your expectation that those students should be allowed to set up permanent camps there? Yes or no?

    If not, describe your ideal peaceful human relocation protocol.

    --
    "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  33. Astonished by wdef · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The amount of belligerent, right wing disgust for people trying to assert their democratic right to protest astonishes me. Yet I suppose these right wind nut jobs are the same people who keep ranting about the right to bear arms to defend oneself against the government.

  34. Re:of course, a little less moving... by RazzleFrog · · Score: 2

    I can make it very easy for you to understand. Forget specifics - the general argument is this:

    A very small percentage of the population has an inordinate and unfair control of the government, corporations, and the worldwide monetary system. This small percentage then reaps most of the benefits of their good decisions and bears almost none of the consequences of their bad decisions.

    Does that make sense?

  35. the banks aren't to blame for educations costs by Shivetya · · Score: 2

    in no shape or form. Big Education is to blame. They simply keep raising their prices to soak up available financing and then market to the same that if you don't have a degree your not going to get the bling. You got part of it right with the chancellors of the school, but its the whole structure of BigEd that is wrong, if not a horrid copy of public ed.

    People are kept and paid based on seniority and nothing else, it doesn't matter if you suck or use stand ins all the time. They they lard up with extras like counselors and such so they can hire their whole family.

    Students are simply guided by the same people who are the problem to focus instead on another bogeyman. It is no different than some petty 3rd world dictator declaring another nation the "big satan". Best to give the populace an enemy OVER THERE so they forget the one with the boot on their neck.

    When you resolve it all it still boils down to the real problem in the US and elsewhere, the political establishment, the truest one percent. They decide the winners and the losers and use your money to make you the enemy of one group or another.

    I am not excusing the banks but they are only empowered by the politicians and they return the favor. The US Congress is being nailed now for insider trading and you can see the hilarity as they find excuse after excuse.

    Yet come next year people will vote for D or R on the ballot and we lose yet again.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.