Slashdot Mirror


The Myth of Renewable Energy

Harperdog writes to this "Excellent piece by Dawn Stover about what renewables can and can't do. The sun and wind may be practically inexhaustible, but 'renewable' energy isn't. Solar, wind, and geothermal power are not fundamentally different from other energy technologies that consume finite natural resources. Good reading for anyone who thinks they know how to combat climate change."

26 of 835 comments (clear)

  1. Renewable or infinite? by jtoj · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Renewable doesnt mean infinite.

    --
    Jose T Oliveira Jr.
    1. Re:Renewable or infinite? by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You can argue that making and charging EV's just shifts the problem downstream to the power plants, many of which are coal-fired, but having all of the pollution more localized still makes a difference in the environment and quality of life.

      Just sucks to be you if you happen to live near a coal plant or an unsafe nuke plant.

    2. Re:Renewable or infinite? by scamper_22 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Almost everything is renewable. It's the cost of renewing it.

      I'm sure we could burn fossil fuels, capture the emissions from the air, send it to some plant, combine with energy and other things, and recreate the fossil fuel.

    3. Re:Renewable or infinite? by jackspenn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I would argue nuclear is the best solution. It has the smallest impact and the greatest potential for recycling and reusing materials. The problem with nuclear power is the fear people have about it.

      --
      Respect the Constitution
    4. Re:Renewable or infinite? by siride · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think the real point is that we're fucked. Yes, fossil fuels and nuclear are worse, but wind/solar/biomass/geothermal won't save us either, for the same reasons. Although each individual installation may not be as environmentally or economically detrimental as a fossil fuel or nuclear installation, the fact that you have to have so many more "renewable" installations to meet the same energy needs counteracts that.

      The takeaway from this article is that we have to change our energy needs and growth model. There's simply no way to continue down this path, no matter what "green" technologies are developed. Energy isn't free. Energy production has side-effects. The only real solution is to use less and less of it.

    5. Re:Renewable or infinite? by multimediavt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The argument being made is that expensive and potentially hazardous materials are required to make wind turbines and solar panels.

      Yes, I got that from the article too, that using current technologies for renewable energy we will be using, potentially, a lot of non-renewable resources. The whole fallacious article is about how current technologies, unimproved over years of research and development YET TO COME, will do these horrible awful things. Indeed they will, if newer and more efficient ways of providing two megawatts of wind power aren't found, or better than 30% efficiency from solar panels and internal combustion engines, or maybe even less expensive ways to get power from rivers and the ocean than big dams. So, yeah, if nothing advances and no further research is funded then this guy's fantasy world of doom will come to pass. Let's hope others aren't as narrow minded as the author seems to be and that we will have some tremendous breakthroughs in renewable energy technologies with continued funding.

    6. Re:Renewable or infinite? by Luckyo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is a bit of doomsaying more then anything else. Burning technologies (for large plants, talking around 200MW per boiler) have really advanced with modern automation. Did you know that one of the biggest annoyances when burning things, SO2 has been largely eliminated in most modern plants that burn... pretty much anything by extreme control over the burning process? In other words, you don't even need complex filters on those anymore, the advances in the burning process itself due to computerization have made processes much less harmful to environment. This is why we talk so much about CO2 and so little about other products of burners - when we used to talk about those other products all the time before. Because the new plant technologies have virtually eliminated most of those, and those that remain are usually rendered harmless by solidifying them on the plant and not allowing them to spread into environment.

      Add to this the fact that we can in fact burn what we grow (biomass), then consider that nuclear is pretty efficient and safe and we have enough uranium and thorium for at least a millenium... we're not so fucked anymore. At least as long as we can develop fusion into workable system in a few hundred years. The only real problem that remains is upgrading the existing burner plants before they shit all over the environment with really toxic stuff (which is what is happening in China at the moment) as well as upgrading nuclear to more efficient and safe plants.

    7. Re:Renewable or infinite? by ElrondHubbard · · Score: 4, Insightful

      On the contrary, I would argue that the problem with nuclear power is that, as is becoming increasingly clear, people's fears about it are *justified*. The current installed base of nuclear tech represents an enormous and unsolved long-term problem to produce what are, on a historical scale, very short-lived benefits. We should not be creating any additional problems for our posterity to deal with.

      --
      "The deep-fried Mars bar is a symptom of a wider crisis." -- Nutritionist Ann Ralph, on the Scottish diet
    8. Re:Renewable or infinite? by Pieroxy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I didn't even click on the link. But comparing a Hummer and a Prius is completely insane and can only lead to biaised results.
      I mean, come on ...

      I could compare my motorcycle to a Prius and deduce that the Prius is worse. Now, could I conclude that hybrids are worse than pure gasoline vehicles?

    9. Re:Renewable or infinite? by Canazza · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I like Nuclear Power, but it has a massive problem if it's poorly managed. Even just one cock-up can cause a major problem.
      The fear is justified, since If I know anything about the Human Race, it's that we can grossly mismanage things.

      --
      It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for being subtle.
    10. Re:Renewable or infinite? by ccool · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And it is much easier to have one good centralized filter/catalizer than many small one on a great many cars.

    11. Re:Renewable or infinite? by Hentes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nuclear power is the best intermediate solution. It's a finite resource, so the best we can do is to use it to buy some time until we develop effective renewable alternatives.

    12. Re:Renewable or infinite? by slim · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Really, the question is, are we ready to adapt to a more expensive, less available energy future? I suspect that we won't have a choice, but that people will cling to the old ways as desperately as people always have.

      We already are doing that, in a small but increasing number of ways.

      We insulate our houses, to save heating bills.
      We look at the fuel economy when we're choosing a car.
      We use energy saving lightbulbs.
      We have showers instead of baths.

      Really, I feel that if governments stopped striving to keep the cost of fossil fuel down, this natural adjustment would accelerate. Whether it's ways of reducing our energy usage, or better ways to get clean/renewable energy, or somewhere inbetween, I don't really mind.

    13. Re:Renewable or infinite? by newbie_fantod · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unfortunately the article glosses over the fact that far more of those expensive and [s]potential[/s] actually hazardous materials are required to make carbon and nuclear based power generating stations.

      Unfortunate but not surprising in an article published by the Bulletin Of the Atomic Scientists.

    14. Re:Renewable or infinite? by DM9290 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      thermal plants have better efficiency than explosion engines in car.

      Although the thermal plant might have more efficiency, depending on the level of NIMBY, the transmission losses and the overhead of maintaining base-load for the electric grid may make the actual net efficiency closer than anyone may like... Sadly, reality is a must-satisfy condition in this analysis...

      And driving massive tanker trucks full of gasoline all over the the country, tearing up roads, to deliver fuel to gas stations is efficient?

      --
      No one has a right to their *own* opinion. They have a right to the TRUTH.
    15. Re:Renewable or infinite? by TWX · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's also much easier to verify that the filter/catalyzer is actually working when there aren't hundreds of millions of them to monitor.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    16. Re:Renewable or infinite? by pla · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When the batteries fail on them, they will end up [snip]

      I believe the word you wanted looks more like "recycled". People don't just toss 99% recyclable $3000 batteries like they do with a pair of dead double-As.


      A 67 Camaro is better than a Prius, even 44 years later it is still desirable, people will still fix them

      A 67 Camaro gets 15MPG. A Prius gets 50MPG. After 10 years of typical (1k miles/month) use at today's gas prices ($3.50/gallon), keeping that "desirable" Camaro on the road will have cost you literally the price of a new Prius ($19600) more.

      The word "better" can mean an awfully lot of different things to different people. I can't, however, find a way to use it to describe something more expensive, less safe, and with fewer features - Other than the dumb nostalgia of "I wanted one as a kid and can finally afford it 40 years later".


      And for the record, I don't own a Prius. I most certainly will, however, as soon as my current car dies.

    17. Re:Renewable or infinite? by higuita · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Fine, but nuclear is NOT environmentally neutral!! you forget that nuclear generate nuclear waste that take thousand of years to read safer levels and even in a mine are dangerous, water can enter, spread to the floor to the water fields and back to the human contact...

      Also, a single big nuclear "leak" might produce more "pollution" than any of the other options... as history shows, nothing works without problems, accidents or evil doing can happen.

      --
      Higuita
    18. Re:Renewable or infinite? by Surt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But the fear and NIMBY are directly caused by the nuclear industry's crying of 'no-wolf' turning out to be untrue. Now they are crying 'no-wolf' again, and asking us to trust them. They have a credibility problem so sever it likely cannot be solved until the impacted generation passes on.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
  2. Hot tip: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Did you know that things like coal and oil came from the capture and processing of Photons, just like wind/PV/hydro does?

    Coal/Oil only seems cheap on a photon processed basis because Man didn't spend the effort and time converting biomass into the coal/oil.

  3. RTFA and reached a conclusion by DontBlameCanada · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The author, by failing to mention the current oil-based energy strategy at all, while vilifying the alternative energy sources leaves the reader with a sense of, "the alternatives are bad, lets keep using the current infra until we come up with something better." Interestingly, nuclear energy is *not* mentioned either, positive or negative - it's completely omitted.

    I'd not be surprised if the author was either a shill for the oil and gas companies or the nuclear energy affiliates.

  4. 600 acre-feet, WHAT? by buglista · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's really time to go metric guys, unless anyone can explain to me what that means?

  5. The piece is arguing for by Stirling+Newberry · · Score: 5, Insightful
    A great deal more austerity. However, it makes a rather weak argument about a very real trade off problem, that problem is the water-energy trade off problem. In almost all forms of energy generation, it is not usable energy that is created directly, instead, heat is generated, the heat is used to do work, and the work is used to store the energy. So, the classic steam turbine has water heated to gas, and the resulting steam spins the turbine, and that carries wires through a magnetic field, which generates a corresponding electrical current, and that current is sent down wires. Another water energy trade off is to have wind turbines pump water up a shaft, which then is allowed to fall, spinning turbines, when power is needed. Bio-fuels, the same way: water is used to grow plants, the plants fix sunlight into hydrocarbons.

    The solution to the water energy problem is more energy, because energy can be used to get water. This, however, lowers the Life Cycle Output of the energy system. LCO or LCA is the expected usable energy out, divided by the expected usable energy used to create and run a system. So if a system produces 10 watts for every watt it takes to build, run, and dispose of it, then its LCA is 10. The 20th century got by on a miracle: namely petroleum has a high LCA, and its its own storage mechanism. Gasoline has great power to weight storage capacities with internal combustion. And internal combustion engines can be built of very cheap metals. There are many quandaries in replacing hydro-carbon energy, and the water energy trade off that the piece mentions is one of them, but it is one of scale. Once there is a large enough renewable base, then the low LCA that getting the water to run it has, is not a problem. It is at the beginning, when the return is eaten through by the water problem, because there are competing uses for water that have much higher economic returns in the short run, such as airconditioning and agriculture. None of these uses want to pay much higher rates for water so that people not yet born can have the advantages.

    Where the article falls down is pressing an agenda, and making sloppy equivalences. The first is equating capital requirements with expendable requirements: we don't burn the rare earths we use in kinetic energy extraction – that is water, wind, and geothermal – and in fact, rare earths, are not, as a percentage of the earth's crust, all that rare. For example, wikipedia has this chart. It shows that all of the Lanthanide rare earths, plus scandium and yttrium, are more common than either gold or silver, many are more common than tin, and some more common than lead. The problem with them is that they tend to be found near the Actinide rare earths, particularly Thorium. If you have seen a press for "Thorium reactors" it is because exploitation of rare earths leads to Thorium by product, and reactors which burn it would be fantastically profitable, for the people who sell the rare earths. In reality, they have the same problems, only more so, of actively cooled salt reactors. Namely, they work until they blow up. The Chinese dump their Thorium in a holding lack, which, should it break, would contaminate large areas of land and volumes of water.

    Side note: how is it that a browser's spell check doesn't know Actinide?

    But for all of that, rare earths are not burned, the way for example Lithuium is not burned in a battery and can be recycled. These are recyclable, which is different from consumable. Hence moving from consumption of hydrocarbons, which really are burned, to using rare earths in capital energy, is a positive step, and while the author of the paper implies that there would be rare earth shortages, the reality is that this is not the case, and substitutes in the form of ceramics and active magnets (See Rare Earth Prices Plunge as Manufacturers turn to substitutes

  6. I've never understood this line of argument by Nicolas+MONNET · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Coals plants also need to be built, they also need generators that require rare earth elements, they also need plenty of steel and concrete. And not only do they obviously spew shitloads of CO2, you also need to build the roads, railways or ships and ports to carry the coal around, as well as mine the damn thing.

    So what is the argument? That since it's just merely much better, and not simply perfect, we should just give up on them?

  7. Are you dreaming? by Framboise · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "It has the smallest impact" ???

    Fukushima and Tchernobyl come to mind of course. Do you realize that making an area like (40 miles)^2 unusable amounts to not a small cost on the economic point of view, or ruining the lives of 10'000's of displaced people is not a small nuisance?

    Presently nuclear energy is the energy method having the largest impact in the far future (~100'000 years), as the nuclear wastes will require to be watched for a long time. Do you realize that such a timespan is comparable to the total time homo sapiens existed on Earth? (The salary of a single engineer over 100'000 yr corresponds already to the total building cost of a nuclear plant).

    Can you imagine what will happen when the next global war occurs? And it will occur well before a century for sure. Each nuclear power plant will be an easy target, at the least a serious menace for those countries foolish enough to have forgot how stupid and nasty human beings may be.

    1. Re:Are you dreaming? by dodobh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As opposed to all those coal mines you don't see?

      --
      I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.