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$350 Hardware Cracks HDMI Copy Protection

New submitter LBeee writes "German Researchers at the Ruhr University Bochum built an FPGA board-based man-in-the-middle attack against the HDCP copy protection used in HDMI connections. After the leak of an HDCP master key in 2010, Intel proclaimed that the copy protection was still secure, as it would be too expensive to build a system that could conduct a real-time decryption of the data stream. It has now been proven that a system can be built for around $350 (€200) to do the task. However, the solution is of no great practical use for pirates. It can easily be used to burn films from Blu-ray discs, but receivers which can deliver HDTV recordings are already available — and they provide the data in compressed form. In contrast, recording directly from an HDMI port results in a large amount of data."

161 comments

  1. And with HDD prices these days... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    recording directly from an HDMI port results in a large amount of data

    With the high prices and todays HDDs, it makes recording from the HDMI even that much more economically unfeasible...

    1. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Because we all know once data has been uncompressed it can never be compressed again...

    2. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      exactry

    3. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by Animats · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because we all know once data has been uncompressed it can never be compressed again...

      Each lossy compression/decompression cycle loses data. For examples. see YouTube.

    4. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by cheetah · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, this device already costs about $350... and some quick and dirty math shows that an HDMI video stream is about 1.78 TB an hour. It's a lot of data, but the bigger problem is not the storage but the rate at which the data is coming out of the capture device. it's about 500MB/sec and to actually write at that data rate, your going to need quite a few hard drives to keep up. You are really going to need at least 6 drives at a minimum to be able to record at this data rate(without problems). So the amount of data is likely to fit on what ever array your recording the HDMI stream onto.

      My 8-disk array could handle this right now... granted it wasn't a low cost array(machine + disks for ~$1000) and it would be even more costly with current HDD prices. But people do have access to the disk space and speed needed to do this currently. I think you would find that a lot of the people the would think about ripping video directly from HDMI already have the data storage requirements taken care of.

    5. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by Kjella · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not losslessly, but heh... if you can spot the difference on a BluRay recoded to BluRay size, you're *good*, I mean even the DVD9 rips look very, very close to the original.

      --
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    6. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by grub · · Score: 5, Funny


      I store all my stuff as MD5 hashes. Why keep a 4.5 GB MKV file when it can be hashed down to 16 bytes? That's just stupid. Haven't watched anything yet, waiting for the holidays.

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    7. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by Anthony+Mouse · · Score: 5, Informative

      You lose data because the differences between the lossy version after decompression and the lossless version are compounded by recompression. If you have a sufficiently high quality original, even if it technically is not lossless, the differences are minimal. To the point that you won't really be able to see the difference after recompressing it.

      By contrast, YouTube is particularly bad because most people start with a low quality video and then YouTube recompresses it at a low bitrate.

    8. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by geminidomino · · Score: 5, Funny

      Gonna suck to be you when you find out that there's a collision between "Frosty the Snowman" and "Trans-Midget Scat Sluts XIX"

    9. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by Guspaz · · Score: 3, Informative

      You can do it with two SATA3 SSDs, although three is safe. But three sufficiently large SSDs aren't cheap. Then again, nobody said you had to rip it all in one go. Three small SSDs; rip a chunk, copy it to a slow big drive, rip another chunk, slow big drive. Regardless, the real reason that it's not useful for pirates is because it's rare that a pirate would even want to do this. bluray was thoroughly cracked ages ago, and OTA or satellite broadcasts (or itunes downloads) are probably going to have better quality than any streaming service you might want to rip.

      What I don't get is why this is even news. Devices to strip HDCP have been on the market for years; the hdfury people have a whole product lineup for stripping HDCP and converting to various analog formats, or even hdmi-to-hdmi (the "dr hdmi" product, I believe). Is this news because it's now DIY, rather than a commercial product that does it? I assume there are other similar devices on the market.

    10. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by EdZ · · Score: 1

      Existing HDMI Capture cards (e.g. £130 Blackmagic) seem to handle on-the-fly compression pretty well. If you really want to capture full-rate HDMI, it might be a lot cheaper to use two 512gb SSDs in RAID0 than a larger and probably more expensive HDD array.

    11. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by tibit · · Score: 1

      It's a matter of time now until someone gets a larger FPGA and puts the HDMI decryptor on it and, say, 6 or 8 SATA interfaces. That way you'd easily stream the data to hard drives, all on one compact board. This can be had on a board that's still probably under $500. The next step will be to put a video compressor on said larger FPGA, and leisurely push the data over a USB 2 connection...

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    12. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by amorsen · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Each lossy compression/decompression cycle loses data. For examples. see YouTube.

      If you use an algorithm similar to the original compression algorithm, you do not have to lose much (in the best case, nothing at all). E.g. a part of how JPEG works is reducing the number of colours in little squares. If you decompress/recompress with JPEG at around the same quality level, the algorithm will notice that it doesn't need to eliminate very many colours in each square, because they magically have just the right number of colours already!

      Similarly, most movie compressions try to detect if part of the next picture matches the previous, just shifted. After compression and decompression, those areas will stand out clearly to the algorithm and it is likely that similar parameters are chosen for the recompression. You can get unlucky that the second compression picks different I-frames than the first compression did, of course. If this kind of recompression becomes popular, someone will write a tool to guess which frames are I-frames.

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    13. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Yes, but you get about 3:1 lossless compression extremely cheaply, which means a much simpler storage solution will do. I'm actually aware of a person who did this before anyone managed to break AACS, it took a HDCP decrypter, a HDMI capture card - very rare indeed - and a fast RAID solution, but it was done like 2007. Today there's not much point but it could be done years ago already.

      --
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    14. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by omglolbah · · Score: 2

      You win...

    15. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by EdIII · · Score: 4, Funny

      Trans-Midget Scat Sluts XIX

      So?

      Frosty was a tosser and Trans-Midget Scat Sluts jumped the shark after the 14th volume.

    16. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by furbyhater · · Score: 1

      I'd be pissed, and rightfully so, .... been looking forward to TMSS XIX since I saw the trailer.

    17. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless the player does postprocessing, which it will probably do to reduce compression artefacts. There is a better chance that low-end decoders don't bother though. However there's a better chance they have crappy decoder doing the decoding math or numerics incorrectly.

    18. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by Trevorm7 · · Score: 1

      It's like when someone pulls the cereal bag out of the box, it gets all fat and you can't get it back in.

    19. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by MarcQuadra · · Score: 1

      This. If you can MITM and decrypt 500MB of HDMI data on the fly, you may as well do some basic video compression before dumping out to disk.

      Also, for high-data linear loads like video dumps, HDDs are still superior to SSDs.

      --
      "Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
    20. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by Karmada · · Score: 1

      a GTX580 can real time encode it to h264 (I know because I wrote an encoder which can actually handle such stream at 30fps),
      not with the best ratio, but quite still well enough to make it storable without loosing significant quality, recompressing it better h264 wouldn't decrease the quality more, just the file size.

    21. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Years of fishing toys out of cereal boxes taught me it's easiest to just fold over the top of the bag a little, turn it sideways and shake it gently to even out the contents. Then it slides back into the box pretty easily.

    22. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by savuporo · · Score: 1

      . If you have a sufficiently high quality original, even if it technically is not lossless, the differences are minimal.

      I know what you mean, but in practice it does not work quite as well as that. Problem is, most common video compression algorithms struggle with previously quantized data.
      A simple test, your high-res webcam probably outputs both VGA and/or MJPEG. Try compressing either with AVC at the same resolution and quality settings, and look at the results.

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    23. Re:And with HDD prices these days... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Somebody already has a chip that does this. It's not for public sale as it is used in their video mixing desks and it is rather large.

  2. vapid nonsense by sribe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...it would be too expensive to build a system that could conduct a real-time decryption of the data stream.

    Then how, exactly, is anyone supposed to be able to ever watch? Oh, yeah, right. Duh. Every freaking HDTV with HDMI input has to conduct real-time decryption of the data stream. Where do these companies even find these fucktard spokespeople???

    1. Re:vapid nonsense by westlake · · Score: 1

      Then how, exactly, is anyone supposed to be able to ever watch? Oh, yeah, right. Duh. Every freaking HDTV with HDMI input has to conduct real-time decryption of the data stream.

      The price quoted to LG, Samsung, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Sony, Toshiba, Vizio, et al., assuming they do not have the manufacturing capacity themselves, is not what you pay when you are a lone cellar-dwelling geek.

    2. Re:vapid nonsense by pckl300 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Then how, exactly, is anyone supposed to be able to ever watch?

      Isn't the whole point of DRM to prevent you from watching anything?

      --
      In the beginning, there was null.
    3. Re:vapid nonsense by sjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of course, none of those will ever be diverted into the hobbiest market or salvaged out of broken and obsolete hardware.

      Certainly, no inexpensive Chinese manufacturer would ever sell such a thing on the gray market, that would be disrespectful of IP!

    4. Re:vapid nonsense by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2

      BIG diff between on the fly decryption and display vs saving ALL that overly large data to disk. without spilling. ever.

      huge difference, there, mate.

      cue the:

      "won't someone PLEASE think of the disks!?!?"

      meme...

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    5. Re:vapid nonsense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't the whole point of DRM to prevent you from watching anything?

      I was going to say something like, "no, the point of DRM is to make you pay for the same content multiple times", but I decided to just give up and declare that you win the thread. Congratulations!

    6. Re:vapid nonsense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What that statement meant was that it would be too expensive/risky for anyone outside the HDMI cartel to build such a device. It's still wrong, but less so.

    7. Re:vapid nonsense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would be my experience with it. Which is why I don't buy stuff with DRM. I download it instead. Never have trouble there.

    8. Re:vapid nonsense by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      But the whole idea here isn't to store on disk is it? I thought it was to stream to devices that weren't invited to the DRM party.

    9. Re:vapid nonsense by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      Bravo. Fortunately I was able to swallow my coffee before LOLing.

    10. Re:vapid nonsense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fully decrypted average-length blu ray recoded with 24bit HUFFman lossless = about 300G, at which point you can recode using whichever codec tickles your fancy.

    11. Re:vapid nonsense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The price quoted to LG, Samsung, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Sony, Toshiba, Vizio, et al., assuming they do not have the manufacturing capacity themselves, is not what you pay when you are a lone cellar-dwelling geek

      Of course not. But if I can buy a $200 full HD TV, you can bet the equipment in it to decode HDMI costs less than $20. A factor of 15x higher price for FPGAs compared to large-run ASICs seems like about what you'd expect. Perhaps the source of the original comment thought nobody would be willing to spend anything beyond trivial money on the problem...

  3. It's a great thing for professional AV folk by Mononoke · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Maybe this will finally make HDMI manageable for audio/visual crews when faced with multiple HDCP encumbered HDMI sources that need to switched and/or crossfaded in real time. Right now it is damn near impossible to implement any form of HDMI switching due to the ridiculous handshake times needed when protected HDMI sources see changes in the destination. Currently the only way to handle it is with a black market HDMI to component converter which introduces often unacceptable video delays in addition to requiring multiple Digital-to-Analog and Analog-to-Digital transitions along the way.

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    1. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by johanwanderer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Since this is only a man-in-the-middle attack, it still requires an appropriate HDCP end point for each source, basically doubling the amount of gears they need to carry.

    2. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      Why would pros touch it in the first place?
      HDMI is for end-user suckers.

    3. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by billcopc · · Score: 1

      That's nonsense, if you have a switch that integrates two or more HDCP endpoints, there is nothing preventing you from mixing the decoded signals thereafter. The problem is a legal one, not technical. There just aren't enough HDCP-enabled pro devices on the market, because the consortium is excessively protective of its stupid-ass DRM scheme.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    4. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If you're a professional you'll be routing and mixing hd-sdi

    5. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by DreadPiratePizz · · Score: 3, Informative

      First of all, professional A/V folk don't use HDMI anyway. Cameras and decks all have SDI outputs, which is pretty much the standard, and there's no copy protection on it. Second of all, in the chance you do use an HDMI source, not a single camera or deck is ever going to set HDCP on, since well, you're the one shooting and editing the material. Copy protection is only an issue if you are trying to record off a PS3, TV broadcast, or copy a blu ray disc - i.e. something that's not yours. If you're running into copy protection issues, you need to get proper gear.

    6. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by Mononoke · · Score: 2

      There just aren't enough HDCP-enabled pro devices on the market, because the consortium is excessively protective of its stupid-ass DRM scheme.

      No, it's because the DRM scheme requires the HDCP all the way to the end device (projector or monitor). In the real world we're not using HDMI inputs on projectors because of cable length issues (among other things.) There is no practical way to get HDCP encumbered HDMI switched and then distributed amongst multiple projectors and confidence monitors in the typical corporate meeting environment.

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    7. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously you have never done pro a/v, or you'd realize that clients come in at the last minute expecting you to be able to play back anything they their at you...if it happens to be a protected bluray or something, this would be good to have

    8. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by Mononoke · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      That's funny, because I often legally project source material from commercial HDCP-protected BD-DVD sources. I do have the proper gear for this task. What I don't have is a graceful way to switch between pre-show PPT sources and the BD-DVD sources. You may live in a sandbox where HD-SDI is the standard, but most of us are still working with multiple clients in multiple venues where media distribution methods are far from standardized. "Cameras and decks all have..." was my first clue of that.

      --
      NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
    9. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Maybe you should look at the NeTV (http://wiki.chumby.com/index.php/What_is_NeTV), it's a small device which can overlay custom graphic/UI ontop of a encrypted signal (without decoding it).

      It might be possible to overlay motion video in the same manner, so you can mix in your 'unprotected' stuff before the main feature.

    10. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by Guspaz · · Score: 2

      hd-sdi is awesome (why are BNC connectors so damned rare these days? A connector that quickly and securely locks beats RCA or HDMI any day), but unless you've got pro-grade projectors, you're not going to have hd-sdi input on them. Even semi-pro multi-lamp projectors are lacking it. So you end up having to use hd-sdi to hdmi adapters, which work great, but cost a fortune. Not that an hd-sdi mixer doesn't already cost a fortune, although those can often be rented at somewhat reasonable prices, unlike projectors. I rented a Roland V1600-HD for three days for 7% of replacement cost, but projector rentals seem to be up to 25-50% for a three day rental, it's insane.

      Yeah, if you've got the budget, it doesn't really matter, but sometimes you need to do pro-grade stuff with a small budget (perhaps because the people holding the purse strings don't want to give you enough money to do it right), and the rental price disparities become an obstacle.

    11. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      What about existing HDCP strippers? They've been on the market for years.

    12. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I have a small A/V company (10 employees) and we fairly often get clients bringing in a bluray disc that they have made themselves and expect us to show with 10 minutes notice. Even though it is all material that they have shot and edited, the hdcp issues still usually bite us. We didn't think that this would be a problem for self made discs, but experience has shown that it usually is. We now tell clients that we can only accept video files or standard def dvd's.

      While the parent poster suggests that this is only a problem when pirating material, I can tell you for a fact that it happens all the time to non copyrighted material. I don't know if clients simply don't create the discs correctly or if the bluray players just assume that hdcp should be applied and cause a fail when connected to switching gear no matter what the content. Either way, it kills us on site.

      We do everything hdsdi, but occasionally still convert our output to hdmi for some of our older projectors. This is done at each projector because of issues with long runs of hdmi cable. Blackmagic has converters that only cost 4 or 5 hundred bucks and work fine. While hdmi is nice for your tv at home it is a terrible thing in pro applications. I really wish manufacturers would get off the bandwagon and make pro gear pro and amateur gear amateur.

    13. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      And as soon as they pop up, they get invalidated by newer hardware and newer media. HDMI/HDCP has the ability to push out key revocation to existing hardware and spread to other connected devices.

    14. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by Guspaz · · Score: 2

      I've read elsewhere that HDCP strippers are typically made from the chips pulled from displays themselves (perhaps they're desoldering them from broken displays). If this is the case, wouldn't HDCP revocations be rendering many random displays useless? Unlike on a BluRay player, there's no way to update the HDCP key on devices that tend not to have updatable firmware (like displays or TVs).

    15. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by guruevi · · Score: 1

      I simply use a Gefen DVI Detective for that little problem. Sure HDCP isn't supported but it seems most systems don't care and fallback on simply displaying the source.

      --
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    16. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by malkuth23 · · Score: 2

      There are a few devices that convert hdmi/dvi to hdsdi for a reasonable amount of money. Blackmagic makes one I think it dubs a dvi extender. The problem is sync and reliability. Neither of which Blackmagic is known for.

      The ultimate professional solution is an Imagepro. They run about 8k and work perfectly. They add about 2 frames of latency which sucks for live music events and lip sync, but they are reliable.

      We have talked to engineers at Nvidia for years trying to convince them to make a decent hdsdi card. There is just not a big enough market. The one they have now is terrible. It costs as much as an imagepro with the same latency and without the cool options that come with the imagepro. Also as graphic cards get better you can always move your imagepro along with the new card.

      Hopefully one day there will be a serious push for hdsdi. It runs huge lengths, has no stupid EDID issues, and locks in place.

    17. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by malkuth23 · · Score: 1

      This is completely true. But it is fun telling them that it is illegal and encrypted. I am certainly not going to build a box to get around copy protection for some client that does not have their content together in time.

      The real problem is EDID. DVI and HDMI are always a fight with EDID. It never works the way it should, especially when you bring in DVI detectives and fiber connections. It is a monstrous pain in the ass. HD-SDI woud be so much better. Copy protection is someone else's problem when it comes to professional AV. I have no problem drawing a line there as large corporations dropping hundreds of thousands of dollars on an event should be paying for content.

    18. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by mtmra70 · · Score: 1

      Crestron makes great HDCP switching equipment. But, what event are you doing where you need to cross-fade DRM'd content?

    19. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by Guspaz · · Score: 2

      It's the other way around that I have to go, though. I've got an HD-SDI source arriving at projectors that can only do HDMI. I don't remember which brand we rented, might have been AJA. They were reclocking HD-SDI to HDMI adapters; my rental invoice doesn't specify which brand we got. They worked well enough. It was IMAG for a variety of events, and there were a few concerts involved, but it was video-only, so sound sync wasn't much of an issue (other than just getting as little delay in the video path as possible was enough). We had hired a company to handle the stage/lighting/audio/etc.

      The HDMI to HD-SDI part was easy, because the mixer had HDMI inputs. I only used HD-SDI for the three cameras and the runs to the two projectors. I wanted to use it for distributing the signal to two other rooms, but the venue informed me at the last minute that they couldn't run HD-SDI over their distribution network, only SDI, so I just settled for composite; much cheaper and my budget was super tight at that point, so saving the money on converters was nice. It turns out that composite video downsampled from 1080p using a very high quality composite source looks pretty decent on a big screen, even after running a few thousand feet over a distribution network. I was pleasantly surprised; it was good enough for our needs.

      The ImagePro looks neat, and costs half as much as the mixer I used, but this was for primarily live video, so I needed a mixer that could do smooth transitions from five or six sources of varying types, rather than a hard switch between sources. I wanted something with a t-bar for the technician to be able to switch smoothly as fast or slow as he felt was needed. But I'll admit that I went into all this blind, knowing nothing about professional video or mixing. It was all "the supplier wanted $14k to do video with one camera. Here's a $4k budget to do it yourself with three cameras. Make it happen in." So after a hell of a lot of time and research, and a big of begging for a few hundred bucks extra, it did work out in the end. But I'm damned if I know how I'm going to pull it off next year, where I'll probably need to run distances farther than HD-SDI is rated for, and do it on bigger screens than require pro-grade projectors rather than semi-pro, and I really doubt I'm going to get much of a budget increase. I have a few ideas from experience doing it the first time about how to save a few hundred here and there (don't actually need HD-SDI on a fixed camera when it's only a few feet from the mixer, HDMI would do if the camera rental company still only has one less HD-SDI camera than I need, forcing me to pay five times more from a second supplier), but it'll be a challenge. The problem is there doesn't really seem to be any online community for professional video that I can go to for advice on this sort of stuff.

    20. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by makomk · · Score: 1

      In theory it should be possible to clone the identity of the HDCP sink and pretend to be it to multiple devices at once, not just one.

    21. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by Craig+Maloney · · Score: 1

      That's exactly what I was thinking. If $350 means I don't have to worry about two devices mucking up the stream, I'm sorely tempted to pick one of these up.

      It's not about copying the content, it's about being able to actually USE the damn content.

    22. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FWIW I run 1080p source to a HD display over a 75' run of HDMI in my hometheater, I can't imagine there are too many "corporate environments" that need hdmi runs longer than that and the ones that do can easily use hdmi repeaters to achieve distances well in excess of 100 meters.

    23. Re:It's a great thing for professional AV folk by billcopc · · Score: 1

      Yes, it "requires" HDCP all the way because that's how they wrote the spec. In practice, the only thing preventing a device from decrypting the stream and forwarding the result to an arbitrary number of devices, is the licensing agreement. God forbid people would use it to make digital copies of Blu-Ray movies, when it is far quicker and more convenient to decrypt the files right off the disc...

      Hollywood stupidity at its finest, as usual.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
  4. Am I missing something. by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Ok the data is encrypted... But the TV's and stuff use it are consumer devices. Many of them are below the $300 mark.
    So if some guy found a chip that decodes HDMI in a $100.00 device takes it out and wires a new device with a different function and sells it for $300.00 he may be making money without actually decryption the HDMI. I mean my TV is HDMI. and a digital single goes into the DLP chip It would be logical that the DLP data is unencrypted by the time those electrons get there.

    --
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    1. Re:Am I missing something. by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      You're right, that's just not legal or easy. If you're not afraid to mod your TV though, you can tap into some output lines of the HDCP decoder to get an unencrypted feed.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    2. Re:Am I missing something. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's not how it works in practice. The TV doesn't have a specific chip for decoding HDCP. And the STB does not have one for encoding. It's most likely built into a larg System-on-Chip which is orders of magnitude more difficult to tamper with...

    3. Re:Am I missing something. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To make a device that decodes HDMI, you need to get a key from whatever agency gives those out. They will want to examine your device, and will not give you a key if you are dumping the unencrypted data out the other side. If you re-use your key later in a device that does that, they will blacklist your key, essentially screwing over all of your customers for both devices. The bad press you'd get for doing that is meant to be the incentive not to abuse the key system.

      This device sidesteps the whole issue because it has no revokable key; it breaks the encryption entirely.

    4. Re:Am I missing something. by symbolset · · Score: 1, Insightful

      At some point the device has to decrypt the stream into "Frame begin. Scanline begin. red pixel, 12.43%. green pixel, 0.004%. blue pixel 48.32%. red pixel, ..." And that's the end of that story.

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    5. Re:Am I missing something. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The TV doesn't have a specific chip for decoding HDCP. And the STB does not have one for encoding.

      Actually, the STB does encrypt the signal with HDCP, and the TV does the reverse. The thing is, the ones behind HDCP tell TV and STB manufacturers that any uncompressed unencrypted signal needs to be buried, for example, by not using top or bottom layer of a PCB. Just imagine that - you can almost buy a TV, hook your 24/30/36 lines on a PCB and get uncompressed video. It is a pity that uncompressed video, normal 1080p, takes 4.5Gbps.

    6. Re:Am I missing something. by CyberDragon777 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That's not how it works in practice. The TV doesn't have a specific chip for decoding HDCP.

      This $8 chip disagrees with you.
      Load it up with some keys and you get the unencrypted audio/video stream on the output pins.

      --
      We both said a lot of things that you are going to regret.
    7. Re:Am I missing something. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So is there anything that can compress unencrypted HDMI on the fly? Pro equipment? Graphic cards? Connect the FPGA device and this with a HDMI cable and you have a realtime high-def ripping platform, future proof. FPGA's isn't something that a hacker or release group will have problem setting up, let alone organized crime.
      And Intel said it's not practical to break HDCP..lol..also ripping unencrypted HDMI stream is not practical, it didn't need protection.

    8. Re:Am I missing something. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That chip does not support HDCP

    9. Re:Am I missing something. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Not 'most likely.' It's a certainty. The HDMI licence requires it.

    10. Re:Am I missing something. by Stewie241 · · Score: 1

      That chip does not support HDCP

      I wonder why it says: The ADV7612 incorporates Xpressview fast switching on both input HDMI ports. Using Analog Devices, Inc., hardware-based HDCP engine that minimizes software overhead, Xpressview technology allows fast switching between both HDMI input ports in less than 1 second.

      In the information page then.

    11. Re:Am I missing something. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is this really true? I have a modified Oppo Blu-Ray player on my desk, with an unencrypted SDI output on it. The SDI mod is a small board that's soldered onto unencrypted video lines on the PCB. I'm not in the USA, this player was purchases legally from somewhere in Europe, it's totally region-free, outputs any Blu-Ray content in HD-SDI, and I believe it is fully legal where I am.

    12. Re:Am I missing something. by tibit · · Score: 1

      It does. It even, apparently, comes from the factory with keys in its OTP prom.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    13. Re:Am I missing something. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's only one variant of the chip. All others do.

    14. Re:Am I missing something. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The ADV7612 is offered in automotive, professional (no HDCP), and industrial versions. The operating temperature range is 40C to +85C.

      From the first paragraph of the link.

    15. Re:Am I missing something. by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      So, do not buy the "professional" version (ADV7612BSWZ-P), buy the one with HDCP.

  5. Great, now FPGA programmers will be illegal by IGnatius+T+Foobar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What our German friends seem to have forgotten is that in the United States, we have the awesome lobbying power of the MPAA. Now they're going to make it difficult to impossible to buy FPGA programmers. If that sounds ridiculous to you, remember how difficult they made it to obtain Smart Card writers once people started figuring out how to clone DirecTV cards.

    --
    Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
    1. Re:Great, now FPGA programmers will be illegal by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      I don't remember having any trouble getting smart card readers/writers/unloopers etc.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    2. Re:Great, now FPGA programmers will be illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Don't you thing that maybe, just maybe, we in Europe are tried of having to deal with American insanity? I realise its not your fault, but it is your problem.

    3. Re:Great, now FPGA programmers will be illegal by ThePeices · · Score: 1

      Oh I dont think that they can do that.

      How exactly are you going to stop people accessing a JTAG port on the FPGA? JTAG has been around for donkeys years, and there are many open source JTAG interfaces availiable for a low cost, or that you can build yourself.

      If you ban or restrict the sale of commercial programmers, you cant stop somebody building their own from current open source designs.

    4. Re:Great, now FPGA programmers will be illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why shouldn't you license such apparatuses?
      "Only trained professional electrician should wield such tools. What are ordinary people to do with them but burn their houses while trying to do something potentially illegal." Just a little good old fashioned American scaremongering and wonders happen.

      Hell, if this applies to laboratory equipment, a whole bunches of chemicals, guns, motor vehicles - retail of electrical components and tools is just a little addition to the list. Hell, in Soviet Russia they even had a register of typewriters, complete with sample pages.

    5. Re:Great, now FPGA programmers will be illegal by IGnatius+T+Foobar · · Score: 2

      Not to worry -- many of us in America are tired of having to deal with American insanity as well. We're on the brink of collapse due to the power held by special interests.

      --
      Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
    6. Re:Great, now FPGA programmers will be illegal by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      No, he's not saying it's a GOOD thing that the MPAA will do this. Trust me, we the people understand how tired you are of it. Sadly there ain't jack shit most of us can do about it.

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    7. Re:Great, now FPGA programmers will be illegal by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      MPAA vs FSF... I can see them somehow managing to get open source made illegal.

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    8. Re:Great, now FPGA programmers will be illegal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How exactly are you going to stop people accessing a JTAG port on the FPGA?

      I just assumed they were going to GBAG the FWEP onto the MSEL and FOOB it.

      are these acronyms supposed to stand for something? i didn't think that far

  6. Since when is €200 = $350? by LogistX · · Score: 2

    At no point in the entire history of the Euro has €200 been $350. The Euro peaked in 2008 at around $1.60 and is today at $1.33. At that conversion rate, €200 equals about $266.

    1. Re:Since when is €200 = $350? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Apparently 200€ is the academic price. 350$ is the normal retail price or so wrote heise.de a few day ago.

    2. Re:Since when is €200 = $350? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Unless you're Amazon, in which case €99 equals $79.

    3. Re:Since when is €200 = $350? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's $350 when you add in shipping, tax, and foreign exchange rate fees.

    4. Re:Since when is €200 = $350? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      At no point in the entire history of the Euro has €200 been $350. The Euro peaked in 2008 at around $1.60 and is today at $1.33. At that conversion rate, €200 equals about $266.

      Looks like a Digilent Atlys board.
      http://digilentinc.com/Products/Catalog.cfm?NavPath=2,400&Cat=10&FPGA

      The US price is 199.99 academic, or 349.99 for non-academic.

  7. Conversion rate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since when does €200 = $350 US? Even if we assume the "high" rate that the Euro used to fetch, it was still only worth about 1.4 USD, thus equated to approximately $280 US, not $350.

  8. Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This solution doesn't make too much sense given that tools are readily available to capture the source material before it is decoded/uncompressed and sent over HDMI. Many available tools can open up Blu-ray discs (with AnyDVD HD being the most prominent). As well, individuals that have the know-how can often capture the MPEG2/AVC TS streams from STBs via FireWire.

  9. Clarification by LikwidCirkel · · Score: 5, Informative

    Since some people seem confused as to why this is special and what it actually does.... I'll try to explain some things.

    Yes, HDCP happens right at the I/O chip, and you can extract unencrypted raw video bitstreams in a variety of ways. All involve actually opening up the receiver device and soldering on wires.

    Typical HDCP compliant devices use a ROM with a vendor key that's attached right to the I/O device. Industry standard devices such as the ADV7441 or AD9889 from Analog Devices fully support this, and interface to the rest of the system with a standard raw video bit stream. The contents of these vendor ROMs are typically unique to each vendor and their contents are not even disclosed to the vendor. They do not contain the master key, but are somehow related to it. This is cheap - the ROM's probably cost pennies, and the cost is more about registering as a certified HDCP compliant device. It's pretty much a plug-and-play solution for display device vendors - simply attach the vendor code ROM to the receiver chip, and the device just outputs unencrypted video to the rest of the system.

    There are various mod kits for adding SDI or unencrypted DVI/HDMI outputs to things like Blu-Ray players, but they all work just by connecting to the raw bitstream lines AFTER the decryption at the actual HDMI receiver chip.

    On an HDMI cable, the actual encryption that takes place is specific to keys on both sides, so can't generally be universally cracked. If a vendor key becomes compromised, future Blu-Ray players can blacklist it.

    What makes this solution useful, is that it's just about the only way to crack the encryption on-the-wire without having to open anything up or solder anything, and it can't be prevented by simply blacklisting vendor keys.

    1. Re:Clarification by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, HDCP happens right at the I/O chip, and you can extract unencrypted raw video bitstreams in a variety of ways. All involve actually opening up the receiver device and soldering on wires.

      Sometimes yes, sometimes not. There are plenty of devices these days (both sources and sinks) that use SoCs with an embedded HDMI interface, including HDCP. There are no unencrypted video lines to tap in those.

      The contents of these vendor ROMs are typically unique to each vendor and their contents are not even disclosed to the vendor.

      The contents are unique for each individual unit. Doing otherwise would be a violation of the HDCP licensing agreement. Each specific instance of a device has its own unique key set.

      They do not contain the master key, but are somehow related to it.

      They contain a randomly picked KSV (40-bit value with 20 zeroes and 20 ones) and the matrix product of the master key with that KSV (row-wise or column-wise, depending on whether the device is a source or a sink). That is how the master key works.

      FWIW, this device isn't a man-in-the-middle attack: it does not at all depend on the sink device supporting HDCP. It's an HDCP stripper, plain and simple. They used the master key to generate their own device key set (or maybe even randomly generate one on each time you use it, which is perfectly acceptable). The output doesn't use HDCP and the receiving screen has no idea that the content was meant to be encrypted. Of course, it's perfectly possible to man-in-the-middle an HDCP stream and dump it out to a third connection, but it's pointless because there is no need to have a real device to authenticate, when you can just authenticate yourself using a valid random key made from the master key. Once you have the master key you gain nothing by having an authorized HDCP device available on the receiving end.

      On the other hand, there is one use case for an actual man-in-the-middle attack that does not dump out or break the DRM at all: the Chumby NeTV. It snoops on authentication to compute the shared key used by the source and the sink, and then uses it to encrypt overlay content and merge it into the image. Since the original image is never decrypted, this legally does not break the DMCA, and thus the MiTM serves a legal purpose, not a technical one (it would arguably be easier to just strip the HDCP off of the source and have the output be unprotected and just merge the overlays with that, but that would not be legal).

    2. Re:Clarification by NJRoadfan · · Score: 1

      My HDMI capture card has a AD9889 on it. Best of all, its controlled by a software driver, the original revision of the device driver had a bug where after performing the HDCP handshake, it would allow capture from protected sources. Most people are using this workaround to capture the HDMI output of Playstation 3 game play, a legitimate use.

  10. It'll find a use. by jtownatpunk.net · · Score: 2

    Back when the key was leaked, I figured the only thing that would keep it from being put to use was the lack of a practical use. But now there's talk of releasing movies on PPV in conjunction with their release in theaters. A device like this could have 1080 BD-quality rips of movies available on the internet the same day they're in theaters. Just grab the stream via PPV, compress it, and seed it. Also applies to any other PPV event that normally wouldn't be available anywhere but thru the cable company.

    1. Re:It'll find a use. by wagnerrp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So someone comes up with a working product capable of keyless, real-time HDCP decryption, and the first thing you want to do is use it to throw content up on bittorrent. You see, this is why the rest of us can't have nice things...

    2. Re:It'll find a use. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have nice things....

    3. Re:It'll find a use. by cynyr · · Score: 1

      do you have a better idea of what to do with it?

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    4. Re:It'll find a use. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      do you have a better idea of what to do with it?

      Ambilight clones.

    5. Re:It'll find a use. by wagnerrp · · Score: 2

      Use it to bypass HDCP issues where two devices are unwilling to talk to each other. Use it to bypass ICT (image constraint token) or SO (selective output). Use it for DVRs that are incapable of complying with CableLabs' restrictions, or in other locales which have no conditional access mechanism. Use it for any number of other legitimate fair use reasons that don't involve content piracy or copyright infringement.

    6. Re:It'll find a use. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's funny that you think those "legitimate" uses you just listed are legal.

    7. Re:It'll find a use. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But you shouldn't need to spend any money on any additional equipment to do that. At the very least you should pirate enough content to get your money back.

    8. Re:It'll find a use. by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      No. We shouldn't need any additional equipment to do that, because there shouldn't be any DRM in place to require it in the first place. The DRM exists to control the legitimate user, and prevent them from using their own purchased content how they choose. If the average consumer knew that, there would have been a huge public outcry, and the DMCA would never have been passed in the first place. However, internet piracy, and street corner and back alley piracy before it, give a convenient smoke screen to allow them to shovel this crap down our throats under the guise of preventing theft.

      So back to the original statement, the complacent attitude about piracy is why the rest of us can't have nice things.

  11. Price by aplamon · · Score: 1

    I can't help notice the horrible exchange rate they get..

  12. Hell I might build one for home by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Right now I have a situation where I can't watch Blu-rays on my PC. I have everything you should need, an ideal setup even. I have a high end video card that does HDCP, I have Windows 7, I have a monitor that does HDCP, and I have a receiver that does HDCP. Everything works, looks, and sounds, great. However when I play a Blu-ray, it says "Nope."

    Why?

    Well because of the way my video and audio are hooked up. My graphics card is hooked directly via DVI to my monitor. No problems there. However it then has a second HDMI output to an HDMI soundcard, which goes HDMI to my receiver. The reason is HDMI requires a video clock to send sound and the soundcard doesn't generate one. No problem, the second out is just a mirrored output, just a dummy out to get video clock.

    However Blu-ray doesn't allow for that. No splitting the signal. Even though both devices are HDCP enabled, it won't allow it.

    So hell, I might build one of these (particularly since where I work, we have Xilinx ISE). Would solve the problem and mean any future HDCP problems are easy to solve too.

    1. Re:Hell I might build one for home by vux984 · · Score: 1

      Right now I have a situation where I can't watch Blu-rays on my PC. I have everything you should need, an ideal setup even

      My PC has HDMI out of the video card to the receiver, the receiver has HDMI up to the display. Bluray playback works just fine.

      Your setup sounds needlessly convoluted for no good reason.

    2. Re:Hell I might build one for home by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Or you could just go to TPB and download MKVs and be done with it. Its this endless bullshit that makes the MPAA companies an epic fail. All I want is an avi file, that's all. My dad has a little Nbox player that doesn't play copy protected bullshit so its of no use to me, also my netbook gets great battery life for playing avi files but i bet if i start playing DRM it'll go to shit.

      So why the fuck won't they sell me an avi file? Are they somehow gonna magically make all those HD rips disappear off of TPB? Nope, they are just fucking folks like me that WANT to hand them the money but whome they won't give any content without making us do a little dance. it reminds me of that old Python bit in Time Bandits where Robin Hood would have one of his men punch a poor person before they would hand them anything "just to make them feel they earned it".

      Well fuck you MPAA, if you won't accept my money for product thanks to piracy I can get the same product for free. you haven't stopped a damned thing, just pissed off people like me that would have happily handed you the money for a useful product.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    3. Re:Hell I might build one for home by tibit · · Score: 1

      You do know that splitting out an HDMI clock requires fairly simple hardware and you only need one HDMI output from your computer for that, right?

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    4. Re:Hell I might build one for home by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      Because AVI is a garbage container, that doesn't actually support even a quarter of the codecs and capabilities that have been shoehorned into it over the years.

    5. Re:Hell I might build one for home by RulerOf · · Score: 2

      It'd probably be cheaper and more practical for you to just get a copy of AnyDVD HD and play Blu-Rays to your heart's content.

      --
      Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
    6. Re:Hell I might build one for home by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So hell, I might build one of these (particularly since where I work, we have Xilinx ISE). Would solve the problem and mean any future HDCP problems are easy to solve too.

      The Xilinx ISE is basically given away free. It's a huge install, but I recall it taking less than a day to put it on my home computer back when I was using a CoolRunner-II for a project (ancient).

      We used the commercial ATLYS board from the company Digilent with a Xilinx Spartan-6 FPGA, which has the necessary HDMI interfaces and a serial RS232 port for communication.

      You wouldn't need the RS232 port, you'd need two HDMI interfaces (input and output). The Spartan-6 starts at $18, and if you wanted to build your own board you could probably make the whole thing for a fraction of what RUB spent.

    7. Re:Hell I might build one for home by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Why is it garbage? Because it works? Because it lets you do what you want? of because it isn't "free as in freedom"? because frankly i haven't seen a damned thing wrong with either avi OR mp4, they play anywhere and "just work" which is more than I can say for MKV which is rarely hardware accelerated and frankly uses around 30-40% more resources, at least in my own tests.

      So unless you can name another container that works with nearly every accelerator out there, doesn't put in a ton of overhead, isn't badly designed (ala Vorbis) and "just works" on everything I'm afraid we'll have to disagree. Frankly I don't care what runs good on your core i series, what matters to me is what runs great on netbooks, set top players, hell even those little $50 portable DVD players usually have support for DivX in an avi container. it "just works" which is why its still around.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    8. Re:Hell I might build one for home by sixsixtysix · · Score: 1

      can't you just out the audio via spdif or optical? it worked like that for me on vista. haven't tried on 7 as i now have a stand-alone blu-ray player.

      --
      ...
    9. Re:Hell I might build one for home by wagnerrp · · Score: 3, Informative

      AVI does not support variable framerate or variable aspect ratio content, so it cannot be used to record broadcast television, nor can it support such changes in recording from a DV cam.

      AVI does not support storage of aspect ratio, meaning it cannot be used for things such as anamorphic encoding.

      AVI does not support B frames, back-referencing P frames only. That means no MPEG4, no XviD, no DivX, no H264, and no other halfway modern codecs.

      AVI does not support variable bitrate audio.

      AVI does not support timecodes, so streaming is not a possibility. It must be a complete file with header and footer, meaning any player requires direct file access.

      Now sure, you can hack on all sorts of additional functionality that lies outside the AVI spec, but then you're not using AVI. You're using some abortive abomination of a file, with no guarantee of compatibility with other players. Why continue using it when there are better alternatives available?

    10. Re:Hell I might build one for home by steevven1 · · Score: 2

      The reason the companies won't sell you an unprotected AVI file isn't that they're afraid you'll put it on TPB (where they know it will be no matter what, as you pointed out). It's that they're afraid that people who have no idea what TPB is (ie most people) will be ble to share and copy those unprotected AVI files, and sales will go down because frankly, the people who don't know what TPB is are the HUGE majority of those people who are willing to pay for movies...Not people like you.

    11. Re:Hell I might build one for home by SeaFox · · Score: 4, Informative

      because frankly i haven't seen a damned thing wrong with either avi OR mp4, they play anywhere and "just work" which is more than I can say for MKV which is rarely hardware accelerated and frankly uses around 30-40% more resources, at least in my own tests.

      It's not the container that decides how much processing resources a file requires or if it can be hardware accelerated, that depends on the actual video inside it. You seem to be under some impression AVI, MP4, and MKV are all video formats.

      Why does MKV take 30-40% more resources than AVI? Because you're most likely playing h264 video instead of XviD, which has more complicated compression algorithms giving you better quality per kilobyte. Why do some MKVs get hardware acceleration and some not? Because they aren't all using the same video format, some may have XviD video inside, like your AVI files, some are h264, and even of those only certain types of h264 get hardware acceleration. Also, you need a video playback app on a PC to be set up in a specific way for hardware acceleration to happen or some files wont use it.

      Getting a playback device to use hardware acceleration means following some very specific rules when the content is encoded, also what you're playing them back on matters, as not all consumer electronics devices support the same formats.

      Your ignorance of all this shows you're a person who watches a lot of pirated content you grab randomly off TPB and don't encode any of your own, or even stick to specific encoders who have a methodology in what they do. You're subjected to a large number of files that behave differently on your devices, but only have a few file extensions that you base your judgements on -- causing all these flawed ideas about AVI vs MKV. This is because those files are all being encoded by different people and while some may be making them to play well on "stand alone players" (like those DVD players that support DIVX, or a Roku, Popcorn Hour, etc), many are aiming for highest quality compared to the source for the filesize, a goal that will generally put you at odds with playback on anything but a full-fledged computer.

      Btw, if your want a player that can handle MKV better look for the "DIVX HD" ones, as that format uses MKV for container instead of AVI like the old "DIVX" DVD players. But then again, nowadays you can get BluRay players that support all sorts of computer file formats.

      So unless you can name another container that works with nearly every accelerator out there, doesn't put in a ton of overhead, isn't badly designed (ala Vorbis) and "just works" on everything I'm afraid we'll have to disagree.

      Container: MP4
      Video: H264 codec: Main Profile, L4.1 or less. Limit B-frames to two. (might be other requirements for acceleration, but this is a good place to start)
      Resolution: 720p or less (maybe 480p depending on device)
      Audio: AAC-LC or MP3 audio stream, no vbr encoding (may have to limit bitrate to 128 kbps or lower, too depending on playback device).

      I believe this will work on any modern playback device that's not a PC.

    12. Re:Hell I might build one for home by 666999 · · Score: 1

      I'm just hoping they will be selling unprotected h264 mp4s by the time I want to replace my AVIs. I never expected it to happen with music, so I'll just keep bugging Amazon and Apple.

    13. Re:Hell I might build one for home by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      AVI does not support variable framerate or variable aspect ratio content, so it cannot be used to record broadcast television, nor can it support such changes in recording from a DV cam.

      I've been using AVI for broadcast TV recording for many years without issue. Frame repetition works, doesn't require variable framerate support (which fucks up many video editing and/or transcoding programs because it's a PITA to deal with), and isn't all that expensive in terms of storage capacity. Or you could simply ensure your setup is fast enough to capture *every* frame.

      AVI does not support storage of aspect ratio, meaning it cannot be used for things such as anamorphic encoding.

      AVI can support storage of arbitrary information, and determiniation of aspect ratio is the responsibility of the codec. IIRC, XviD supports aspect ratio storage perfectly adequately, although it may be the only one.

      AVI does not support B frames, back-referencing P frames only. That means no MPEG4, no XviD, no DivX, no H264, and no other halfway modern codecs.

      Funny. I've used MS-MPEG4, XviD, and DivX with AVI for years. I'm not aware of any H.264 codec that works with AVI, but as the technical issues with doing so are identical to those of the former 3 codecs (H.264 being only a minor variant of the same coding system used by the other 3) I don't think there's any reason it couldn't be done.

      AVI does not support variable bitrate audio.

      Are you being serious? Sure, this isn't supported by the original spec, but there are widely (almost universally) deployed extensions that allow for it.

      AVI does not support timecodes, so streaming is not a possibility.

      Here you actually have an important point.

      Now sure, you can hack on all sorts of additional functionality that lies outside the AVI spec, but then you're not using AVI. You're using some abortive abomination of a file, with no guarantee of compatibility with other players. Why continue using it when there are better alternatives available?

      Because these extended versions of AVI are actually more widely supported than WMV, MKV, MP4 and indeed any other container that supports the features you want. They're the only one that'll play out-of-the box on Windows versions back to '98 or thereabouts, on pretty much every major Linux distribution since 97, on almost every set-top media player box, and in a reasonably large proportion of DVD players. Sure, MKV and MP4 are making ground here, but there's still a lot of legacy hardware out there that won't play them.

    14. Re:Hell I might build one for home by antdude · · Score: 1

      Ditto, but I hate DMCA. I have seen people's Internet service get shut down for pirating. :(

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    15. Re:Hell I might build one for home by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      AVI does not support B frames, back-referencing P frames only. That means no MPEG4, no XviD, no DivX, no H264, and no other halfway modern codecs.

      What? Almost all .avi files on TPB are XviD/DivX.

      Now sure, you can hack on all sorts of additional functionality that lies outside the AVI spec, but then you're not using AVI.

      Oh, OK.

      I guess .mp4 would be better (though I had more problems with it, maybe my codec config is wrong or those files were badly encoded). I wonder why the releases are in .avi then. Maybe some players can play these non-standard files, but cannot play other containers (I know that only recent players support mkv)?

      Also, broadcast television is variable framerate? For some reason I thought that it is always 50 fields per second (60 in some other countries).

    16. Re:Hell I might build one for home by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      Also, broadcast television is variable framerate? For some reason I thought that it is always 50 fields per second (60 in some other countries).

      Sure. Some channels will always be 50 fields per second (25 frames per second), others will be 50 frames per second, and others will flip between progressive and interlaced modes at different resolutions. This only pertains to digital television (DVB). Analog (PAL) is always 50 fields per second, interlaced.

    17. Re:Hell I might build one for home by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Really? I didn't know that. Most likely because I use a DVB-C tuner, it outputs S-video, which goes trough my VCR to the capture card in my main PC (so I can watch TV on my monitor). So, I always get analog PAL and for some reason though that the broadcast format stays the same, 50 fields per second, even in digital TV.

    18. Re:Hell I might build one for home by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Actually I DO encode my own files and I'm afraid it is YOU sir whose ignorance is showing because only a handful of players will play MKV and NONE of them, not a single one, supports the entire spec for less than $200. Most support only the low baseline codec spec, including those "DivX HD" units you have mentioned. I have tried them and frankly they are shit. I can get a better picture with better file size with Xvid and the ONLY gain I have seen for MKV is the ability to have multiple subs, but since i don't watch fansubs I really don't care.

      Sure if you want to buy a $200 unit that is basically an ARM PC in a case it'll play, but at that point why not just get an HTPC? Hell its less than $50 more and supports more formats. until you can show me where you can get new units for less than $80 a pop that completely support the MKV spec I'm gonna have to say MKV doesn't cut it. I can buy sub $80 units all day long that support MP4 and AVI up to 1080p with ZERO skipping or dropped frames, again the only ones I've seen supporting MKV for less than $150 support baseline ONLY.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    19. Re:Hell I might build one for home by SeaFox · · Score: 1

      Actually I DO encode my own files and I'm afraid it is YOU sir whose ignorance is showing because only a handful of players will play MKV and NONE of them, not a single one, supports the entire spec for less than $200.

      Support for MKV in the PMP space is poor because MKV support in the stand alone player space was poor to start with. It isn't a commercially developed container format so I think manufactures treat it like a moving target. You might also consider AVI has been around for, what, an entire decade longer? That might influence support for it.

      I can get a better picture with better file size with Xvid

      H264 gives better picture quality than Xvid. That's not something you can really dispute, as the statement is based in mathematics (not to mention most encoders abandoning Xvid for that very reason, despite the lower system requirements for Xvid playback).

      the ONLY gain I have seen for MKV is the ability to have multiple subs, but since i don't watch fansubs I really don't care.

      Chaptering support is a frequent reason MKV is chosen, and I don't believe multiple audio tracks are supported in MP4, either.

      Sure if you want to buy a $200 unit that is basically an ARM PC in a case it'll play, but at that point why not just get an HTPC?

      Because a $200+ PMP fits in one's pocket significantly better than an HTPC? :-P

      Hell its less than $50 more and supports more formats. until you can show me where you can get new units for less than $80 a pop that completely support the MKV spec I'm gonna have to say MKV doesn't cut it.

      You're measuring technical superiority of the container format based on a metric that has nothing to do with the containers themselves. It's not Matroska's job to get $randomcheapmediaplayermaker interested in supporting their container format, that's the job of the market. It's users going "I want a player that supports High Profile h264 in MKV" that gets them to look for those components needed, and it's their complaining over the last five years that has gotten MKV to the point where its supported even at the level it is. We're gonna have to start bitching all over again now to get Hi10P support in a stand-alone, too.

      I can buy sub $80 units all day long that support MP4 and AVI up to 1080p with ZERO skipping or dropped frames, again the only ones I've seen supporting MKV for less than $150 support baseline ONLY.

      Only an idiot encodes 1080p into an AVI container, and that "overhead" you speak of is the reason why. Why would you put 1080p files on a PMP to begin with? None are going to allow you to see 1080p resolution (especially not a "sub $200" player). Might as well transcode to a lower resolution and save a few hundred megabytes of memory space for other files.

  13. No, not so much by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    They try and outlaw FPGAs they'll find themselves up against a massive backlash from companies far bigger than they are. People like Cisco, Intel, and so on. FPGAs get used in all kinds of commercial gear. They aren't a hardware hacker's toy (not that they can't be that just isn't what they are for) they are a device when it would cost too much to do a run of ASICs, but you need more specialization than a CPU can give you. Also they are for devices that need field updatability.

  14. Or you could just buy it today... by Palmateer · · Score: 1

    This guy's been selling a variety of products to allow your old component or VGA only devices play from HDMI sources. http://www.hdfury.com/buy-hdfury-now/ Some models are around $250

    1. Re:Or you could just buy it today... by LikwidCirkel · · Score: 1

      These do not decrypt HDCP. HDMI conversion does not imply HDCP decryption.

      http://www.hdfury.com/hdmi-hdcp/hdcp-converters-and-strippers-boxes/

    2. Re:Or you could just buy it today... by Palmateer · · Score: 1

      True, but for the end-user, for now, isn't the effect of stripping the encryption very close to actually decrypting it? I still get an unencrypted analogue signal that I can connect to either a display or capture device. Perhaps it will not work for every title, but without such a device no titles can be displayed from an HDMI port to an analogue device. Some BluRay players have both HDMI and component outputs but cripple the resolution to component. I'm thinking for example of my 57" Sony HDTV with only composite/svideo and component inputs (not even DVI or VGA). An upconverting DVD or BluRay player will only output 480p over analogue while my device is capable of 1080i. From the link: "As already noted earlier, there is no way a non-compliant HDCP device can become compliant. This means that there is no way you can use some ‘magical’ HDCP converter. (Except HDfury !)"

  15. bring an umbrealla by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you know: if everybody believes in dragons .. lo-and-behold: there are dragons! (same thing holds with rain)
    "the electron belongs to the people(tm)"

  16. You then need to say sod it by fireylord · · Score: 0

    And rip the bluerays.

  17. Already cracked long time ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All you need is a dual core cpu and 1.6GB of RAM
    http://www.cs.sunysb.edu/~rob/hdcp.html

  18. Blu-ray by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 2

    Blu-ray content can be ripped *exactly* using programs like MakeMKV and all the significant video media is released on Blu-ray these days. There's no need to try to capture this material from HDMI.

    1. Re:Blu-ray by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What if I want to record my xbox360 games in high def, and the game doesn't support this feature in software. HDCP doesn't allow for the video stream to be split, so a solution like this would be one of very few options.

    2. Re:Blu-ray by KeithIrwin · · Score: 1

      Well, there's lots of stuff which isn't released on any media. For example, late night talk shows. If you are a big fan of Conan or The Daily Show or The Colbert Report, those don't really get released on Blu-Ray. Also, less popular, but still awesome shows like Arrested Development or Community have never gotten Blu-Ray releases. And although I'm not a huge sports nut, it's not difficult to imagine people who want to record and save all of the high-definition games of their favorite team. Obviously, if it's broadcast unencrypted (like Community is), then it could be pulled down that way. But stuff which is only available over cable/satellite is usually HDMI'ed by the cable box.

  19. Three main reasons by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Informative

    1) My monitor is a professional display (an NEC MultiSync 2690WUXi). Among its other features is hardware calibration. It has internal correction tables to produce extremely accurate output, calibrated to any curves I like. To do that, the video card must be able to communicate with it via DDC/CI which it can't do through the receiver, since the receiver gets those commands, not the monitor. I didn't pay $1200 for a monitor and calibration hardware to not have it work to its optimum potential.

    2) Latency. I am a gamer, and I want as low a latency as I can have to my monitor, particularly since as a professional monitor its scaler already introduces a bit of latency (33ms). If I feed the signal through my receiver, it will introduce additional latency in an effort to perfectly synchronize audio and video. I would rather have less latency and a minor sync problem.

    3) I often operate the computer without sound. Right now, since I'm surfing the web, I don't feel the need to listen to anything. Thus the receiver is off. It puts out about 200 watts at idle since it is a fairly high power, high bias unit (a Denon 3808CI if you are wondering). I'd rather save the power, and more importantly not heat up my room, when it isn't needed. Can't do that if I feed video through it.

    My setup is designed to meet my needs, and it does very well. It has no issues with anything, except for Blu-ray. The only reason it has such an issue is a stupid artificial restriction.

    1. Re:Three main reasons by vux984 · · Score: 1

      1) My monitor is a professional display (an NEC MultiSync 2690WUXi). Among its other features is hardware calibration. It has internal correction tables to produce extremely accurate output, calibrated to any curves I like. To do that, the video card must be able to communicate with it via DDC/CI which it can't do through the receiver, since the receiver gets those commands, not the monitor. I didn't pay $1200 for a monitor and calibration hardware to not have it work to its optimum potential.

      Hmmm.

      2) Latency. I am a gamer, and I want as low a latency as I can have to my monitor, particularly since as a professional monitor its scaler already introduces a bit of latency (33ms). If I feed the signal through my receiver, it will introduce additional latency in an effort to perfectly synchronize audio and video. I would rather have less latency and a minor sync problem.

      I'm also a gamer, and the receiver introduces no discernible lag, provided everything is set to straight passthru with no extra processing "i.e. game mode" on both the display and receiver.

      3) I often operate the computer without sound. Right now, since I'm surfing the web, I don't feel the need to listen to anything. Thus the receiver is off. It puts out about 200 watts at idle since it is a fairly high power, high bias unit (a Denon 3808CI if you are wondering). I'd rather save the power, and more importantly not heat up my room, when it isn't needed. Can't do that if I feed video through it.

      My receiver passes hdmi up to the display in standby drawing minimal power just fine.

      This loops back around to #1... maybe your hdmi passthru issue with DDC/CI can be resolved via a configuration option on the reciever? Denon makes good kit after all... although i imagine you've already chased that rabbit down into its rabbit hole as far as you could...

    2. Re:Three main reasons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) My monitor is a professional display (an NEC MultiSync 2690WUXi). Among its other features is hardware calibration. It has internal correction tables to produce extremely accurate output, calibrated to any curves I like. To do that, the video card must be able to communicate with it via DDC/CI which it can't do through the receiver, since the receiver gets those commands, not the monitor. I didn't pay $1200 for a monitor and calibration hardware to not have it work to its optimum potential.

      2) Latency. I am a gamer, and I want as low a latency as I can have to my monitor, particularly since as a professional monitor its scaler already introduces a bit of latency (33ms). If I feed the signal through my receiver, it will introduce additional latency in an effort to perfectly synchronize audio and video. I would rather have less latency and a minor sync problem.

      3) I often operate the computer without sound. Right now, since I'm surfing the web, I don't feel the need to listen to anything. Thus the receiver is off. It puts out about 200 watts at idle since it is a fairly high power, high bias unit (a Denon 3808CI if you are wondering). I'd rather save the power, and more importantly not heat up my room, when it isn't needed. Can't do that if I feed video through it.

      My setup is designed to meet my needs, and it does very well. It has no issues with anything, except for Blu-ray. The only reason it has such an issue is a stupid artificial restriction.

      I'll just repeat what the guy above already told you - "Your setup sounds needlessly convoluted for no good reason."

      I can tell you have reasons for such a weird setup, but you do that to yourself. I mean you have a HDMI receiver for your PC... with no HDMI display attached to it?
      Stop the PC-think and trying to make one system do EVERYTHING. Nobody cares about one-off PC setups. If you can afford all that kit you've mentioned, a more reasonable thing to meet all your requirements is to buy standalone equipment. A $1200 25" display... buy a damn DB player.. good lord man.

    3. Re:Three main reasons by aintnostranger · · Score: 1

      This loops back around to #1... maybe your hdmi passthru issue with DDC/CI can be resolved via a configuration option on the reciever? Denon makes good kit after all... although i imagine you've already chased that rabbit down into its rabbit hole as far as you could...

      And this is how HDMI and all DRM is a bad thing... because it puts the burden of making HIS expensive equipment on the consumer. The consumer pays for the hardware, for the media, for the DRM development costs... and still he is the one that gets screwed with less functionality than we had in the 80s.

    4. Re:Three main reasons by vux984 · · Score: 2

      and still he is the one that gets screwed with less functionality than we had in the 80s.

      Yes because in the 80s he had a computer that could calibrated an HD flat screen display, and 6 channel audio connections to his receiver.

      I'm not going to disagree that there are DRM issues that are a PITA. But his setup has issues more from HDMI in general than HDCP and DRM.

      He essentially wants to split audio and video off a digital communications signal yet maintain two-way communication to one of the endpoints for DDC/CI.

      I'm pretty sure there are number of easy workarounds... like dropping audio off the hdmi entirely, and just using an optical out of the sound card.

      That's how I ran my previous system.

      HDMI from video card up to the display, optical from the sound card to the receiver.

      Frankly, I like the new hdmi passthru setup I have much better. But i don't need to color calibrate my display through DDC/CI like he apparently has to.

    5. Re:Three main reasons by BenJury · · Score: 1

      Or instead of having to buy all new equipment to play back BRs that his existing equipment should be able, just get 'em from the bay. If they are going to go out of their way to stop the consumer from using their product which they are willing to pay for, can you really blame people when they do?

      --
      Blatant Advert: Android Apps!
    6. Re:Three main reasons by toddestan · · Score: 1

      It's a bit odd the way it's accomplished, but basically he wants to be able to send the sound to one device and the video to another device. I don't see anything particularly odd with that given that's how I generally do things, and his set up would work fine if it wasn't for the DRM preventing it. Though working within the rules, my guess is that a sound card with a digital output going to receiver and disconnecting the HDMI cable would probably fix it, however, I can''t say for sure.

  20. Summary plagiarised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  21. How's bout this? by Paracelcus · · Score: 1
    --
    I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
    1. Re:How's bout this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boxes like that don't handle HDCP. They work with laptop outputs in certain modes and certain cameras only.

  22. I actually didn't look in to it much by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    Your suggestions might have merit, though the DDC/CI one is problematic because not only do commands have to get passed but SpectraView II (the NEC software) has to recognize this display.

    The setup I have now was done because it is easy and it works. Requires 1 extra cable and a simple setting in Windows. I haven't bothered to look at other ways around because playing Blu-rays on my computer isn't all that high priority. I have a home theater setup too.

    The reason a HDCP bypass device interests me isn't just because it solves this problem, I could solve it in other ways (an HDMI signal generator would do the trick, though they are costly) but because it solves this problem and any other I ever have caused by HDCP.

    It is one of those things that bites you in the ass when you don't expect it. Like with this. I never expected it would be a problem, after all: all devices in the setup are HDCP compliant and I can check to see the communication is working.

    So if I had a device to solve this problem, then if another one presents itself later, or at work or something, I can grab the device and solve it.

  23. Re:How's bout this? No. by JustNiz · · Score: 1

    Composite is analog so there's some loss of image quality.

  24. The chinese have been doing it for years by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have a $35 no-name chinese-made HDMI repeater that strips HDCP from anything you feed to it. Quite useful for watching BluRay output on my old non-HDCP TV. Doing it with an FPGA is a nice trick, but doing it with off-the-shelf parts selling for $35 retail is more convenient :-).

    1. Re:The chinese have been doing it for years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could you tell us what exact model you are using? I want one!

    2. Re:The chinese have been doing it for years by blind+biker · · Score: 1

      What would be some useful keywords to use, to search, say, eBay for a device such as that?

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    3. Re:The chinese have been doing it for years by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 1

      What would be some useful keywords to use, to search, say, eBay for a device such as that?

      The answer to that is a bit complicated because it's not an advertised capability of any HDMI switch/repeater but an inevitable consequence of forcing the cost of DRM onto manufacturers. If an HDMI device manufacturer includes HDCP then their product is less interoperable, slower, and less reliable than that of a manufacturer who doesn't, leading to customer dissatisfaction and lost sales. The economically rational thing for a manufacturer to do then is to not include HDCP (or more generally to pretend to do DRM but to not actually do so in practice). This doesn't work too well if you're a US or European manufacturer within lawyer range, but if you're a fly-by-night manufacturer in Shenzhen who won't be around (at least under the same name/shell company) in a week then it's perfectly OK to do this. So the one I have is a standard off-the-shelf HDMI switch made with standard parts used in endless numbers of devices globally that simply doesn't bother turning on HDCP in the output (I've looked at the data coming over the internal control bus, it clears the HDCP-out bits on the HDMI switch chips).

      So unfortunately there's no easy way to specifically locate something that does this. In my case the search criteria were "the cheapest HDMI switch from the closest place that's open at 5pm on a Sunday", and the HDCP stripping was a pleasant extra. One starting point would be Alibaba, but be warned that that's drinking from a firehose (a search for 'HDMI' gives 75,000 hits).

      .

  25. HDCP, not HDMI by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    Even the summary gets this right.

    This is about HDCP, which exists on both HDMI and DVI. I wouldn't be surprised to find something similar on DisplayPort.

    This is not about HDMI, which can deliver an unencrypted video signal, just as DVI can.

    Honestly, this makes about as much sense as saying "Reverse engineers crack ethernet copy protection" when talking about Ubisoft's DRM.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  26. Missed the point there didnja by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 1

    Using SlingBox or a variety of HDMI capture devices with built in H.264 codecs, you can capture the compressed stream. Those other devices are designed to function on HDMI but do not function with HDCP equipped devices.

    That being said... I managed to hack a board like this together months ago... it wasn't even complicated. Did it using a $149 FPGA board and a $299 HDMI In/Out adapter for it. I needed it not for copying, but for SlingBox.

  27. Re:How's bout this? No. by Paracelcus · · Score: 1

    It depends on your preferences, with my eyesight it really does not matter, nor would it to most older adults.

    --
    I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
  28. Re:How's bout this? No. by JustNiz · · Score: 1

    You'd probably call me an 'older' adult. Preserving full picture quality definitely (still) matters to me.
     

  29. Re:How's bout this? No. by Paracelcus · · Score: 1

    Actually I probably wouldn't based on your answer.

    --
    I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd