Slashdot Mirror


Does Open Source Software Cost Jobs?

jfruhlinger writes "John Spencer, a British blogger and tech educator, is convinced that free and open source software, which he's promoted for years, is costing IT jobs, as UK schools cut support staff no longer needed. But does the argument really hold up? It turns out that the services he's focused on are actually cloud services that are reducing the need for schools to provide their own tech infrastructure. Of couse, it's also true that many of those cloud services are themselves based on open source tech."

21 of 530 comments (clear)

  1. Translation: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Efficiency is evil.

    1. Re:Translation: by ThosLives · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I can't remember the exact source (and because I'm really a secret Luddite I won't search for it) but this reminds me of the saying about the public works project where one overseer says that in order to increase employment they should take away the workers' shovels and give them spoons, and the other one says "why give them spoons?"

      --
      "There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
    2. Re:Translation: by syousef · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Efficiency is evil.

      It's more insidious than that. If you do a job that can be automated, you are already redundant. Automation will only increase. On the flip side we have ever cheaper labour due to globalisation. The idea of earning your living doing an honest day's work is coming under severe pressure. Artificially retricting the automation is a band aid at best. Imagine what would happen if we were to suddenly have robots with human like abilities but not wants and desires - if that sci fi dream is ever realised the idea of having a job is going to become rather antiquated.

      So if we don't destroy ourselves we will eventually need a change to our economic systems and our ideas on earning - that will be a huge and devasting change to make - unlike any other in history. Earning a living is an idea deeply ingrained into most societies. Our entire economy will need to be reworked if the vast majority are not to starve. What's more it must be done sustainably with the finite resources we have. The change isn't going to be pretty..

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    3. Re:Translation: by hedwards · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's only a good thing if the standard of living is improving. Back decades ago it was commonly believed that by the 21st century people would be working only a few hours a day to provide for themselves and having a large amount of time off.

      That didn't happen primarily because they underestimated the willingness of a willfully ignorant subset of the population to vote for class warfare against the lower and middle classes and for the wealth to accumulate at the top even at those at the bottom suffer.

  2. Cotton Spinners by Stargoat · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There isn't much need for cotton spinners or candlemakers any more either. Are we to mourn those jobs as well?

    --
    Hoist Number One and Number Six.
  3. Clouds don't fly by themselves... by skovnymfe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There are jobs in the cloud too. They're just smarter jobs, not I-run-a-server-in-my-spare-time-so-I'm-qualified jobs. And who says you don't need support staff for open source software anyway? Hell if anything you probably need more when people can't find that button that does that thing in Word but isn't there in open office.

  4. The way I see it by 3arwax · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The way I see it, technology helps us get machines to do the mundane so we can spend our time exploring and creating.

  5. You know what costs jobs? by nine-times · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You know what costs jobs? Efficiency. Economic efficiency always costs jobs. Often, it's creating other jobs elsewhere, but maybe not. Maybe it just means that job doesn't need to be done anymore.

    You can create jobs by paying people to dig ditches and then fill them back in. Or you can create jobs by hiring support people you don't need, building infrastructure that can be handled more efficiently elsewhere, or paying people to write software that you don't need because an open source alternative is already available. It's the same as digging useless ditches.

    Do you really want to create jobs? Great. Hire people to do something useful that can't be handled more efficiently by open source software. Or hire them to improve open source software-- god knows there's work to be done.

    1. Re:You know what costs jobs? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Indeed. TFA is just a thinly veiled broken window fallacy.

    2. Re:You know what costs jobs? by PeterM+from+Berkeley · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, but what you need to realize, is that's 85% of people working on NONESSENTIAL things. If people stop having the means or will to buy NONESSENTIAL things (read, the middle class is eliminated by eliminatng their jobs, so they can't afford gadgets or entertainment or health care), then 85% of people will be out of work and will starve or revert to subsistence farming (if they can get land!), because while there's food for everyone, well, we can't force that productive 5% to feed everyone who has no means to pay them, now can we?

      People don't seem to realize how dangerous this cycle of concentrating more and more wealth in the hands of the rich is. The rich don't generate enough demand to drive an economy. Why should a rich guy, whose factory is at 75% capacity, invest in more factory capacity? THIS is the current situation--too much wealth with the rich, not enough with the poor and middle class, who generate demand. And this is the fallacy of "supply side" economics right now. We have capital, there's just no reason to invest the capital in increased capacity because there's no demand. Tax cuts for the rich are horribly misguided right now. If we had factories at 95% capacity or more and no capital to invest, then yes, tax cuts for the rich so they can invest in capacity.

      --PM

  6. Of course it does. by mcgrew · · Score: 5, Funny

    Electric lamps cost jobs when they were new, all those candlemakers in the street! The horrors! And the car companies put the buggy makers out of work, the whip manufacturers kaput, the ferriers all bankrupt.

    Look at all that open source water that falls from the sky, depriving honest water sellers from making a living. Damn it, this is terrible! Nothing should be free, right?

    Someone is complaining because Joe will do for free what Jim has been paid for? *sigh*. What a load of bull-oney.

  7. Quote Investigator to the rescue! by XanC · · Score: 5, Informative

    http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/10/10/spoons-shovels/

    At one of our dinners, Milton recalled traveling to an Asian country in the 1960s and visiting a worksite where a new canal was being built. He was shocked to see that, instead of modern tractors and earth movers, the workers had shovels. He asked why there were so few machines. The government bureaucrat explained: "You don’t understand. This is a jobs program." To which Milton replied: "Oh, I thought you were trying to build a canal. If it’s jobs you want, then you should give these workers spoons, not shovels."

    1. Re:Quote Investigator to the rescue! by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There are two San Francisco bridges - among the most used and photographed in the world - built within 6 years, during the 1930's.

      The Golden Gate was a WPA project - approved and built in 4 years. The Bay Bridge, not formally WPA, benefited immensely from the large-scale mobilization of labour and planning that WPA enabled.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    2. Re:Quote Investigator to the rescue! by Moryath · · Score: 5, Insightful

      1) The WPA prolonged the Great Depression by about 7 extra years.

      Show me one respected source saying so. And no, Gingrich and Palin's books don't count.

      2) It wasn't something that really was within the mandate allowed by the Constitution.

      Really? National, cross-state-border infrastructure would seem to be firmly in line with Section 8 of the US constitution.

      3) At least for the debt, pain, etc. we GOT that standing infrastructure. The same can't be said for Obama's Stimulus, which seems to have produced LITTLE.

      "Obama's Stimulus"... you mean the Bush Stimulus? Are you referring to the ERA of 2008, or the ARRA of 2009? If it's the latter, Obama signed it less than a month entering office. All the work on it was done months before by Congress, under the BUSH regime.

      And in any event, the criticism of more than 90% of economists (read: any real economist that isn't a CATO Kochsucker) isn't that the ARRA was too large, but that it was too SMALL to have the desired effect and included too many bad tax breaks trying to get Republicans to sign on to the deal.

    3. Re:Quote Investigator to the rescue! by Moryath · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Indeed. Where I live, there's a ton of crumbling infrastructure. A good portion of it is roads that are 50+ years old. I've driven on WPA-produced roads through a neighboring state where the road - poured concrete - has literally turned itself to gravel over the years through neglect. Republican leaders of the state don't spend anything on maintenance, and their "solution" to the road becoming unsafe is - I'm not kidding - to just keep reducing the posted speed limit to something that's "safe for conditions" on an unmaintained road.

      A frightening concept, given that the US interestate system (formally, the Dwight D. Eisenhower National System of Interstate and Defense Highways) was originally pitched to Congress under the military provisions of Section 8 of the Constitution, to provide for a network of roadways capable of moving military equipment from base to base. These days, it's basically a bare-minimum subsidy for the trucking industry, which has caused our national railway infrastructure to decay in ways that are completely unreasonable and results in far more smog output than there otherwise would be from cross-country freight.

  8. Egg Analogy by CanHasDIY · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Putting all your eggs in one basket is never a good idea.

    Putting all your eggs in someone else's basket, one that is hosted God knows where, is an even worse idea.

    Something tells me this cloud fad is just that; a passing trend. Oh, sure, non-technical management might love the idea of being able to cut staff and equipment costs by putting all their eggs in the cloud basket, but the first time said non-technical management is unable to access their remotely-stored eggs, for whatever reason, the shiny luster will fade and they'll come to the realization that the sysadmins they let go were far more valuable than previously thought.

    Remote backups are always a good idea, but remote everything is not a winning strategy, IMO.

    --
    An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  9. Re:Um, wrong cause for the effect. by Hatta · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This isn't a problem with the software, it's a problem with the economic system. Humans don't exist merely to fill jobs. On the contrary, jobs exist to fulfill humans.

    If we've invented a technology that lets 1 person do the job of 2 people, then we've freed one person from the need to work. We've literally saved his life, or at least 40 hours a week of it. This is a good thing. The fact that this guy has to go supplicate himself to yet another capitalist in order to eat is simply indicative of the perverse incentives inherent in capitalism.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  10. Re:Duh by Culture20 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Paid for = jobs
    free = no jobs
    not really a hard concept

    Actually, it is kinda hard. HTML and Apache are free and open, and yet they provided an explosion of jobs and practical use for businesses, mostly _because_ they're open.

  11. Re:Duh by mattventura · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A common misconception related to piracy, foss, etc (anything where you are not paying) is that not paying = reducing the number of jobs. In reality, money doesn't just disappear, but rather it is spent elsewhere. Pirating software or using FOSS instead might cut some jobs in the software industry, but, for example, I might spend the money on more/better food, thus creating jobs in the food industry. Of course, the effect is largest with businesses which will almost always choose to spend money rather than save it.

    Saying that FOSS or piracy or whatever is killing some industry or costing that industry jobs isn't necessarily false, but it doesn't hurt the economy. It's like when cars became popular. Sure, the horse-drawn carriage industry suffered, but the jobs and economy lost were made up for by the auto industry.

  12. That's the problem with TFA. by khasim · · Score: 5, Interesting

    He's blaming Open Source for automation.

    But it doesn't matter if the "cloud" vendor is running Apache or IIS or whatever. Services will be consolidated and automated. It's about the economies of scale.

    He talks about being "an Open Source apologist". Fuck that. That's all you need to read to know that that article is going to be worthless.

    He's confusing:
    #1. Open Source (Free) Software.

    #2. Consolidation / Automation.

    #3. The recession / depression / economic restructuring / whatever.

    #4. Hardware / software / services (his example of Apple).

    And then he complains about the loss of "fat profits". But he doesn't understand that someone has to PAY those "fat profits".

  13. Re:Duh by Fri13 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Professional == You are paid what you do
    Amateur == You are not paid what you do

    Skilled == You have learn to do well what you do
    Talented == You are fast learner or adapt quickly what you do

    Someone can be a amateur, but still skilled programmer.
    Someone else can be professional but still bad programmer.

    And on what point did we really turn out that ranking of people is based their wealth and not to what they do?
    I rank a school teacher higer than a CEO of big company.
    I rank a worker higher than a CEO of that company where that worker works.

    After all, technology should help people, allow people to enjoy the life. Not work harder or longer. People should have less working time, more free time and we should have already taken care of poor and other people who can not get their life working so they do get their life working. We have technology, we have way to do so. But we do not do so if CEO do not profit from it so much that you can buy a few airplanes and fifth house. And we rank those people so high that people coming after them, are ready to do anything to get their positions before them.

    Competition does not help anyone, alternativies does.

    Competition != Alternativies
    Alternativies != Competition

    We can have alternativies without competition.
    Prise the alternativies and freedom, not competition and suffering.