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North Korea Threatens South Korea Over Christmas Lights
K7DAN writes "North Korea warned South Korea on Sunday of 'unexpected consequences' if Seoul displays Christmas lights near the tense border, and vowed to retaliate for what it called 'psychological warfare.' From the article: 'The tree-shaped, 30 metre-high steel structure on Aegibong hill - some 3km (2 miles) from the border - was illuminated by thousands of small light bulbs last year. It could be seen from the North's major city of Kaesong across the border, according to media reports. Pyongyang has previously accused Seoul of using the tree to spread the Christian message to people inside the secular state.'"
what it called 'psychological warfare.'
Big words for a country that built an entire town on their side of the border, just for propaganda.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
King Jong Il is the grinch! What a twist!
To offset political mods, replace Flamebait with Insightful.
For the first time ever, the term "war on Christmas" is actually accurate.
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While the North's reaction sounds predictably paranoid, the article seems to hint that some sort of propaganda is the purpose of the tree, as evidenced by whether it's lit or not being correlated with thawing versus tension of relations. I'm not sure how effective it'd be at spreading a Christian message specifically, but maybe it's intended to spread a sort of generic, "look how awesome it is just across the border" message?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Because of Afghanistan and other places we ignored having a tendency toward biting us in the ass from time to time.
I'm also pretty sure that Japan is quite interested in what North Korea does, given the proximity of the two countries and the cruise missiles that NK has developed...
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
I know that North Korea is fashionably behind the times, juche and all; but seriously, this is a bit much.
The idea that Christmas trees are a symbol of Christianity, rather than some freaky pagan stuff, stolen for a while by Christians, and now firmly entrenched as a coniferous altar of Mammon for youth of all ages and faiths, is patently absurd.
Now, it is unlikely that pro-consumerist psychological warfare will be any more popular with our fabulously haired friend; but he needn't worry about the spread of any but the worldliest of indulgences...
'Cause they don't HAVE any light when the sun's not shining.
N Korea at night:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/dprk-dark.htm
Thats pretty wimpy psychological warfare, as decorating pine trees in the living room and shopping and fighting people on black friday and singing about red nosed reindeer is hard core capitalist worship, its not christian at all. I don't even know how you visually "do" christian christmas worship other than something like a 200 foot tall "nativity scene" which unfortunately makes no sense to someone not already versed in christian theology (my son, when he was very little, called it "the farmers", too little to know any better, yet +1 insightful as it was, after all, in a barn scene...)
Now real christian psychological warfare would be a larger than life Easter scene of the last supper with the table unbiblically piled with tons and tons of yummy food... most of the NK either are currently starving or recently were starving so a big food display is going to rile them all up to no end. Maybe they do that? Waving a bunch of food in front of a starving man with a gun is probably unwise, maybe its going too far?
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
I was stationed near the DMZ when I was in the ARMY. It's a very dangerous and volatile place just waiting to explode! The North Koreans are crazy; you never know what they will do. If a war breaks out between North and South, it will be the bloodiest and worse catastrophe in human history!
-- By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.
Finally shrug off that horrible regime and look back at history, they're going to be ultra, mega pissed off.
Dear leaders, my arse.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I have an easy solution. Just put up a giant menorah instead. Then you won't be spreading a Christian message.
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
It's a country in the grip of a deified leader cult. They worship their tyrant and his father in a manner that would have made L. Ron Hubbard or Jim Jones jealous.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Seriously, put the tree back up there.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
It is not Seoul or the South Korean government that display those Christmas trees.
They're 45% without religion and 23% Buddhist.
Those Christmas trees belong to Roman Catholics (~10%), who are allowed to have them - by the government.
I wish people would also distinguish more between a) Country, b) Population, c) Government (even though some still believe b) is responsible for c)
As someone else already pointed out, DMZ is an extremely volatile place. This is not the first time when a tree is a source of tension. See the "axe murder incident": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe_murder_incident
I have modpoints, but I'm just at a loss to know what to call this. There is no 'bat-shit insane' mod response.
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Christmas has been a religious holiday since the 4th century. The precise date of the event it celebrates was (and is) unknown, and several theories about why December 25th was selected exist, including, but not limited to, attempting to offset the Roman solstice celebrations that were occurring at around the same time of year. Even so, however, Christmas is definitely a religious holiday, even if the date itself does not have any historical significance tied to the event it celebrates, and its celebration as a religious festival far predates any of what you've described above.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I'm afraid that S. Korea (and the rest of the world) is between a rock and a hard place on how to del with this despot. I mean forget about the small chance of war between the Koreas; a conflict that while producing a very large number of civilian casualties would be over in a week or two with the modern S. Korea army aided by the U.S. quickly recovering from the initial bombardment and then demolishing the N. Korean army.
No I'm talking about the millions who for two generations have led short stunted lives due to starvation and extreme poverty. They have been deprived of any contact with the outside world and have been controlled to an extent that makes 1984 seem like a liberal's paradise. It's really chilling to watch a documentary such as the one made when western doctors went in to provide free critical surgeries to the populace only to see the ones who lives they've saved turn around and condemn their saviors.
One of the main reasons why I do not invest in China is because of their unbending support of N. Korea. Better (they think) to let millions of Koreans die than to let the Americans have an ally abutting them on their northern border. The other reasons include Tibet, Myanmar, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iran and basically all the non-democratic regimes in Africa who they prop up. I fully realize that the West is fully capable of rank hypocrisy but China doesn't even make a pretense of advancing the human condition.
I don't know what to do more than anyone else. Let this horrendous half-century holocaust continue or wage a war which would result on hundreds of thousands of casualties. I think the only way to decide on a firm course of action would be for S. Korea to have a national referendum as to whether or not to save the people who are literally their brothers. This makes planning surprise attack rather difficult though.
(Is "funnier" a legitimate word or not? I'm afraid I'm not a decider).
It would also make us universally-despised by just about everyone on Earth, and the moral equivalent of Genghis Khan. In case you've forgotten, we're supposed to be the good guys. We make occasional mistakes, and occasionally a psychopath slips through the chain of command, but for the most part, we do try to be a force for good. It might be mostly out of enlightened self-interest rather than genuine altruism, but at the end of the day, most of us can go to sleep at night with a fairly clean national conscience.
Team America: World Police is obviously satire, but it's a lot closer to the truth than most of us really like to admit.
It's amazing how even the most oppressive dictator is afraid of a simple Christmas tree.
Christmas just barfed all over my neighbor's front yard. I run my house like a dictator. Too bad I don't have a proto-nuclear arsenal to threaten them with.
and its celebration as a religious festival far predates any of what you've described above.
No, as you stated, Christians assigned their birthday celebration near the solstice so they could co-opt the Roman Saturnalia festivities, which already involved booze, parties, presents and shopping.
The Christian's strategy was generally successful, but they certainly shouldn't be surprised when it backfires because people continue their partying around the solstice for the same reasons they always have. If Christians really don't like it, they should move the birthday again to a more somber date.
Bin Laden wasn't trained by the CIA. (In fact, very little of the mujaheddin was trained by the CIA, as the CIA mostly provided intelligence, weapons, and funding.) It's been pretty well established that he brought his own funding and later relied on funding from places like Saudi Arabia. With very few exceptions, he neither trusted Western powers nor did he want their assistance, believing that to do so was to accept help from heathens. Interviews with him by those outside of Muslim circles were rare but telling in how they were approached and conducted.
The mujaheddin was a complex network of resistance forces, and bin Laden was but one very small part of it.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
I tried that with my neighbors too, and it didn't work.
If it helps North Korea, I can point you to a store that has pretty good curtains!
What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
I didn't know that we sent an "Ask Slashdot" questionnaire to Michele Bachmann...
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
Who invited Rick Perry? This isn't a Republican Debate!
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
I actually know somebody who thinks this way. They're not stupid. I think they're just ideologicly bent by hard-right elements in the Republican party. Note, I'm not painting the whole party with this brush. It's just that this element finds its home in the party, and once you start associating with people who think a certain way...
We geeks are not immune to this (Emacs, Ruby, etc... are the only true ways and all other ways should be suppressed).
It seems bloody obvious to a lot of us that if the US persued this course of action we would become the horror of the world, and a large portion of the world would unite to end the horror as it did with nazi Germany.
If you are immersed in hard-right culture, it's a lot less obvious. See also, the Milgram experiment.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
While what you say may be true, I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that a critical part of stopping the Soviets in Afghanistan was the anti-aircraft weapons provided by the USA. The mujaheddin were getting chewed up by helicopter gunships and negating that advantage was decisive.
God is imaginary
They were absolutely critical. Once the Hind started serious deployment, the mujaheddin were getting ripped apart because the Hind was much better at nap-of-the-earth flight and thus surprise attacks, and the Afghan rebels had to get something to knock them down. The US was eager to not only slow the Soviet advance but also to get parts from downed aircraft, and would reward those who came up with more salvage with more weapons. The missiles' effectiveness caused Hind pilots to learn to make their birds perform maneuvers that the designers never imagined, and in doing so earned the healthy respect (at least on the battlefield) of mujaheddin warriors. Engineers at Mil and other places started coming up with modifications to try to neutralize the advantages the Afghans now had, much like the US had to do with its various weapon systems in Iraq (twice) and Afghanistan.
The difference was that while the recent wars have perhaps dented the US economy, the Soviet economy was already shaky and the tactics and strategy did not evolve fast enough from a military or political standpoint to slow the losses to a level where it could be sustained, let alone won. Soviet popular opinion was also very much against the war (and had been for years), and contrary to popular belief about the USSR at the time, they could not simply round up a bunch of people and force them to fight. They tried to find a way to save face and end the war at the same time, but ultimately, the losses were too daunting and they had to retreat.
Looking back on some of the articles, the statements that the Soviets made sound a lot like those the US is making. The commanding officer, Lt. Gen. Gromov, made public pronouncements on how Soviet forces were turning over security to the government, slowly drawing down forces in anticipation of leaving the country capable of handling its own defenses. Over the course of a couple of years, the drawdown of 115,000 troops was completed, with Gromov the last to walk across the bridge leading out of the country. One can only hope that more stability comes out of it ca. 2014 than 1989.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.