The Fjord-Cooled Data Center

1sockchuck writes "A new data center project in Norway plans to use a fjord-powered cooling system, drawing cold water from an adjacent fjord to cool data halls. The fjord provides a ready supply of water at 8 degrees C (46 degrees F), eliminating the need for an energy-hungry chiller. The Green Mountain Data Center joins a small but growing number of data centers are slashing their cooling costs by using the environment as their chiller, tapping nearby lakes, wells and even the Baltic Sea."

Comments

Queue the screams of hysteria

[ErikTheRed]

from environmentalists over warming the fjord water in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

Re:Queue the screams of hysteria

[girlintraining]

*screams of hysteria*

But more seriously, that is a problem with environmentalists -- they can't separate the forest from the trees (I'm only being slightly sarcastic here). From what I've been able to tell by talking to these 'greenies', any environmental impact is bad. It's not enough to be carbon neutral, or conserve energy, save the whales, or whatever else is currently in vogue in their movement. It is a political movement that is based on a sliding scale of "purity". I can easily see one of them extolling the virtues of living in a house that has no electricity, is built entirely out of clay, and they don't cook their food (because fire releases carbon). What's worse, they feel guilty about having any modern conveniences, and so they try to buy indulgences like "carbon credits" or "EVA cars" ... which when you look into the total lifecycle of the vehicle and it's total environmental impact, you don't wind up any better off than a conventional car. A lot of environmentalism is just a shell game... it's moving the responsibility around so they can claim they're "carbon neutral" or whatever while someone else (usually the government, or some corporation) are the bad guys.

The bottom line is, the problem with the movement is that they can't see that progress towards environmental goals are only achievable by being economically competitive. I mean, everybody right now is going crazy about living "grid free". But the problem isn't the grid. The 'grid' is just a collection of wires and transformers. It's the management and production of that resource that is the problem; If the environmentalists wanted to "save the planet", they'd come up with a way to transport electricity over very long distances with minimal losses. That, right there, is the kind of tech we need to reduce our dependence on coal, oil, etc. Until we can cheaply move energy to where it's needed on demand, we're stuck with dino fuel because it's the only thing with a high energy density that can be built right now -- you can't build a nuclear power plant anywhere in this country right now even if you wanted to... and even if you could, nobody wants it near a city, which is where it needs to be to be useful.

Re:Queue the screams of hysteria

[scotch]

Who are these environmentalists you know who hold these positions? Someone serious or some stupid cunt you went to school with?

Re:Queue the screams of hysteria

[NeutronCowboy]

It IS something to take into consideration. And it doesn't even have to be some enviro-nut who is tying himself to trees to save the endangered fern.

Here's how it works in reality: many fjords are home to commercial fishing and aquaculture. All those species are adapted to cold water and don't do well in warm water. What happens if a data center warms the water around the effluent by a couple of degrees? Cold-water fish, shrimp, clams move away and the people who depend on them have to move with them. It's probably fine if there's just one data center in the Fjord, and the warming is highly localized. maybe a few hundred square meter of surface area. But what if there's more? What if there are ten data centers in the Fjord? Or other industries in need of cooling? Suddenly the entire fjord warms, and it's not only the fish, shrimp and clams that are gone, but the livelihood of the people in the area.

Environmentalism isn't about building absolutely nothing anywhere near anyone. It's making sure that what you build allows others to still live in the area in the foreseeable future and without having to dramatically adapt their lifestyle. Sometimes, it means that a data center using fjord water is ok. Sometimes it means that a data center using fjord water is not ok.

Yeah, life is full of grey and subtilities and hard decisions that aren't black and white. Sorry to disappoint you.

Re:Queue the screams of hysteria

[EdIII]

You're grouping environmentalists all in to one bucket. It doesn't work that way.

I am an avid environmentalist. According to you, I don't support Nuclear power in my backyard. Yet, I actually support it. Newer technologies mitigate a lot of the safety concerns and we can figure out better ways to store waste and even better technologies that yield less waste.

As for the transport of electricity I think there already is an excellent method. Aluminum Gallium power sources produce hydrogen from water and all you would need to do is ship them back to a Nuclear power plant where it would be vastly more efficient to remove the Oxygen to recondition the power source.

That's a pretty progressive idea.

I am not against the whole cooling from the fjord idea, but you would have to be a complete idiot not to realize that an environmental impact study would need to be conducted if the hot water was being put right back in the fjord. Of course they don't have to do that at all. They can just use passive heat exchangers with the surrounding air instead. Better yet, use the heat for surrounding buildings, offices, etc. or even convert it back into energy. So many more options than just dumping it back in the fjord.

There is a difference between "screaming hysteria" and "gee what happens when we raise the water temperatures around the datacenter a couple degrees?".

Economically competitive is just a cop out. What it really means, is that you have a limited commitment towards change. In my personal view, which has had heated debates, we are fucked already. Leave economics out of it and make the hard decisions now. That does mean start building as many nuclear reactors as possible right now because they are the most immediate solution to massive amounts of power generation that can be used immediately for heating, cooling, industry, etc.

Short term pain == Long term gain. Problem is nobody wants to sacrifice and any environmentalist that proposes serious sacrifice is labeled a hypocrite (appropriate in some situations) or just plain crazy.

As for off the grid people, all you can really do in the end is control your own actions and voice your opinions and ideas cogently and passionately and hope it helps. Those people you are denigrating are doing the sacrificing because it is what they can do. I sacrifice as much as possible, and writing on a laptop does not make me a hypocrite.

P.S - It's not so black and white when you label people. I propose extreme austerity measures but also very aggressive and progressive changes.

Re:Queue the screams of hysteria

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, it's your standard straw man extreme environmentalist. It's pretty popular to refer to them these days, but it's extraordinarily rare to observe them in the wild. I'm sure they do exist somewhere, but I've never met one personally.

They remind me of white crows -- rare and not typical of the species.

Re:Queue the screams of hysteria

[AfroTrance]

Warm water of a data center won't change the temperature of the ocean at all.

Not the whole ocean, but as I said, it could affect the local environment.

But any way, what is the other option?

Did I say they shouldn't put warm water in the ocean?

What should be done, in all circumstances, is a study on the environmental impact. Such a thing may find (for example) that the original design releases the water in a secluded shallow bay where there is little circulation. As you said, a simple fix would be to make a longer pipe and release the water in deeper water, where there are stronger currents.

Environmentalism is not about doing nothing because well everything affects the environment. It is doing the optimal thing based on scientific evidence.

Re:Queue the screams of hysteria

[jhoegl]

I wonder if someone would calculate how much power/heat would be needed to raise the temperature enough to affect it.
I would be more worried about the marine life being affected more than the heat generated.
And speaking of marine life, remember how environmentalists were worried about such things as salmon and dams?
Remember how environmentalists are worried about eroding soil and hurricanes?
You know what... look at the history of what "environmentalists" have saved us from, and then come back and say something.
If it wasnt for them, we would be drinking firewater(literal firewater), sucking in coal ash, and dealing with randomly placed toxins.

Re:Queue the screams of hysteria

[ByOhTek]

The people in charge of designing and running the plants are not the problem. I've known a lot of people in that field. Very smart, very thoughtful.

The problem is the politicians who make the decisions don't have a fucking clue. They then decide to cut budgets, put things in bad locations, etc. The people designing, building and running them don't have the options or resources available to alleviate the issues. They can write reports and make suggestions, but the politicians and bureaucrats tend to ignore these.

Put a plant away from any place that's got an active fault line, and at least 20km from an ocean (with some adjustment for altitude), and you shouldn't have a problem. A modern plant least has triple redundancy and safety features that quash the reaction is they lose power (or are told to do so).

Re:Queue the screams of hysteria

[Anonymous Coward]

If the anti-environmentalists were in charge of overseeing human development, well, the Sahara would be a desert, Ohio would be a wasteland, and the Tigris/Euphrates area would be a salt-laden chain of abandoned cities.

Oh wait...

Re:Good thing it isn't California

[artor3]

Source? This sounds like the sort of heavily distorted (or outright fabricated) story that one might hear from Rush Limbaugh or some other professional liar.

Re:Why is this needed?

[necro81]

Heat capacity is a major reason: a kilogram of water can absorb a whole lot more heat than a kilogram of cave air. So to cool off the same load, you need to transport (i.e., pump) a whole lot less water than you would air. It requires energy to do either one, so using cold water is more energy-efficient than using air. Plus, the required water pipes would be a whole lot smaller than the equivalent duct work for air.

Using water has difficulties, though, which may have been the reason this data center you mentioned didn't use it. Unless you have a really exotic setup, you don't cool the processors directly using sea water; you use the cold water to generate cold air, and blow the air across the racks. That extra step requires a beefy heat exchanger, which adds costs. The infrastructure to get and transport the water is also capital-intensive compared to just having a lot of big air intakes. At some scale (i.e., X megawatts of cooling load), water will still win out because it is such an efficient heat transport fluid compared to air.