Ask Slashdot: Is E-Learning a Viable Option?

An anonymous reader writes "My spouse, who is an elementary school science teacher, has had some experience in e-learning, since her school gave iPads to all the students. She found that students used these devices, not for school purposes like note taking, but for gaming, etc. It got to the point that she banned them from her classroom. Do technology aids help, or hinder, education? Is the idea that students can be home-schooled electronically realistic, or absurd?"

Comments

Like teacher, like student

[Anonymous Coward]

Well from my experience with those electronic "white boards," they just distract the teacher as much as the students.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[daem0n1x]

If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

We seem to have done a pretty good job educating people in the last century or two. In most developed countries, most people are educated to the limits of human capacity.

All the innovative devices may have a role in education, but they should be considered carefully. Education systems are under attack right now. They're being pressured by the neoliberal shitheads to sharply lower costs and by corporations (usually the same guys) that want to make big money selling expensive toys to governments.

Blackboard and textbooks have worked for long, why such a rush to replace them? IMHO, the ability of a country to educate its population depends more in factors outside the school. like:

1. how families value education
2. how families stimulate critical thinking in kids
3. if kids are well fed, safe, happy
4. etc.

If a kid wants to learn and has a competent teacher, blackboard and textbook is more than enough.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[Anonymous Coward]

"We seem to have done a pretty good job educating people in the last century or two. In most developed countries, most people are educated to the limits of human capacity."

You don't talk to people on the streets much, do you?

Re:Like teacher, like student

[daem0n1x]

Yes, I do. I find stupid and ignorant people everywhere. But the numbers of ignorant people have been noticeably decaying, at least in my country. Could you have done better? Please step ahead, we'd all love to know how.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[jrminter]

I could not agree more with the importance of the "other factors" you listed. I think they are more important than technology. Technology is simply a tool - and like any tool it can be used well or abused. Consider the work of Salman Kahn of Kahn Academy. He started tutoring his cousins in math. Because he was doing this long distance, he started making you-tube videos. He reports that his cousins preferred the videos to "live sessions" because they could pause them and fit them into their own schedule. His work has grown into Kahn Academy that many schools are using effectively. At a higher level, I would point to the on-line machine Leaning class by Prof. Andrew Ng of Stanford. This uses technology very effectively but requires a self-directed and self-disciplined student. These same tools are abused by those who make poor choices.

At the elementary and secondary level, I view education like a three leg stool - where the parents, teachers, and administration are the three legs supporting the student (the seat.) If any part fails to perform, the whole system suffers. Parents must value education and require respectful, disciplined behavior from their children at all times; teachers must use all the tools at their disposal to create instruction plans that effectively communicate the material to the student. Technology is only one of many tools. The administration must make sure that teachers have the needed tools and help enforce discipline. When rowdy, disrespectful, and non-performing students are kept in the classroom, it ruins the environment for everyone. if the state must educate these problem students, they need to be segregated to a boot-camp like school that deals with their special needs. At some point, you cut your losses. It is a question of return on investment. The ultimate objective is to turn the student into a self-directed, life-long learner who takes responsibility for their own education. We now have unprecedented access to information - more than at any other time in history. Ignorance is the result of a string of bad choices and the individual bears significant responsibility.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[Anonymous Coward]

"most people are educated to the limits of human capacity."

That's rubbish. If you spent a moment thinking about it you'd see that statement can't be true.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[vtcodger]

I worked for a number of years in a K-8 school. My opinion. Computers aren't useless, but for the current state of things, there are plenty of things for which they are not an answer. First of all, the teachers need computers as do the administrators. As a practical matter, teachers are tied to their classrooms for much of the day. They need a networked computer and a printer.

Students? Computers are somewhat of a challenge to kids who do not know their alphabet and can not read. OTOH computers can be very useful in 2nd-4th grade. There are a gazillion little programs (Many of which are MSDOS or Windows 3 based and will not run on "Modern Computer Hardware" without an incredible amount of tinkering) that teach basic stuff like arithmetic, English grammar, some basic science, some history. Allowing students to spend part of their day exploring this stuff at their own pace is probably a good idea.

Older students? With rare exceptions, the only thing computers provide is word processing, spell checking, and a refuge from reality. Nothing wrong with any of that -- within limits.

And for the one student in 10 or 20 with exceptional skills/interest in some specific area -- computers, chemistry, physics, art, literature ... anything but playground skills -- computers can be (but often aren't) a gateway to knowledge. That's especially true I think in schools systems with large class sizes and limited resources. I don't think this is being adequately explored.

But handing everyone an ipad or kindle or whatever and expecting technology to work miracles. That's ludicrous.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[carvalhao]

What got you here won't necessarily get you there :)

Re:Like teacher, like student

[uniquename72]

If the teacher doesn't know how to use a smartboard, all involved will suffer. Having a teacher using tech products who doesn't know anything about technology is like having a teacher using textbooks who can't figure out what a book is. A good teacher is an expert not only in the field they're teaching, but in the tools they're using to teach. That doesn't mean they need to know everything about the technology -- they just need to know what it does so they can use it effectively, and how it works so they can troubleshoot if something goes wrong.

I went to grad school almost entirely online. It was very challenging, but I learned just as much as if I'd been in the classroom (not least because, in many cases, I was -- just virtually). I also had a few professors who had no understanding of the technology -- their classes were usually just a waste of time. Some of them had to have WebCT sites, and they'd do such a piss poor job of creating a functional information architecture that actually doing the work meant calling them at home and walking them through using the software (that was 8 years ago, btw. Today every professor at my university has to have an online presence, and it's the same. Some get it and some refuse.)

So to the OP I say this: If ALL the kids did was play games, the fault is with your wife. She wasn't using the tool effectively, and had no control over her classroom.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think you know which side of the argument you're on. The conservative Republicans are the ones trying to reduce costs by cutting public spending. They argue they are not getting value for money, which might be true. But cutting costs isn't necessarily the right way to get better value for money.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[cdrguru]

Popular culture in the 1950s showed very clearly the value of education - you got good grades, got a good job and were successful. In the late 1960s and 1970s the popular culture turned and hasn't turned back. Today the idea of getting good grades in school marks you as a "nerd" and a social outcast. The value of education today is far, far lower than it was 60 years ago and the estimation of that value is purely from popular culture.

It doesn't matter how much is spent on educating children if the children view the entire process as a waste of their time. They want to get out and play video games and chat on the Internet. You might think that textual communication would reinforce good grammer and spelling - but no, modern text communication eschews all grammer and spelling in favor of "new rules". The end result is that if they can string some words together it is good enough.

The other problem is that to a certain extent the children today are right. There are no high paying jobs waiting for them all if they get good grades. They have college to look forward to at either a massively overcrowded state school that is simply interested in processing them in and out or a private school where they (or their parents) will likely never pay off the massive loans. If they are accepted, which isn't a given. The state schools are still tossing out 25-35% of the student body during the first year because they can't function in a college environment. There is no sure guarantee of employment even if you are successful in college.

But the worse tragedy is the students that get suckered into the "knowledge economy" when they are mentally incapable of dealing with high levels of abstraction. You know that somewhere around 40-50% of people really do require something to hold in their hands, right? That for them trying to deal with abstract concepts is the same as most Westerners trying to learn Chinese. We used to have good paying factory jobs and skilled tradesmen. Today there are few factories and the idea of someone trying to learn to be a sheet metal worker, a plumber or an electrician is almost a cruel joke. Schools aren't set up to teach these people, even the US President thinks everyone should go to college and be a "knowledge worker", and where there were programs for leaning to be a skilled tradesman today there is ... nothing.

We have tried to remake society in an image that is a false reflection of where we want to be. Sorry, but people aren't wired that way. We are clearly headed for a major shift. Maybe everything will collapse in 2012 and we won't have to worry about it anymore.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[cdrguru]

Today in inner-city schools in the US the majority of the students would be moved to a boot-camp like school in your view. That is unrealistic.

Out in the suburbs it is almost as bad with many of the students not being distruptive or violent but just not caring about what is going on. They are going through the motions, pretending to be involved. End result is they are going to go nowhere but their expectation is that they would go nowhere anyway.

We have created a culture that views education as a waste of time, teachers as enforcers of authoritarians bent on subugation of the children and that the future for most is rather bleak. The only escape from this is luck - like winning the lottery - or some slim chance of success in a very rarified environment. Success in life can be had by the lucky criminals that stay out of prison, by million-dollar sports figures and just about nobody else. Nothing is gained by education or hard work - it is all the luck of the draw. We have spent the last 50 years or so promoting this view of life in the Western world and it has certainly taken root.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[Paracelcus]

"most people are educated to the limits of human capacity"

The problem with the idea of higher education for everyone is that it falsely assumes that everybody is college material! You really short change someone by forcing them into indentured servitude for twenty years to get a degree that you can use to get a job a Starbucks (Oh right, you don't need a degree for that), instead of a technical school for the medical technology field of heavy equipment repair or plumbing or.... And make a good living.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[Anonymous Coward]

Frankly, any electronic device given to children will be used for things other than it's intended function.

Give a kid a calculator and time how long it takes them to write "Boobless" on it.
We got given TI-83's for our Higher Maths class (16-17 y/o) and myself and a couple of friends learned to programme for it, got a C for Maths, but got an easy A for Computer Studies.
With something like an iPad, which is designed purely to consume information, children won't learn anything from it unless it's locked down even further and disallow the installing of applications entirely.
If all you're doing is giving the child an iPad to take notes, then it certainly isn't E-Learning in any way shape or form.
E-Learning should actually be a piece of software or hardware that actually teaches something. Not just as a glorified notepad.

As someone who develops E-Learning software, we are rarely called to actually build something for children. I think in the 4 years I've worked here I've done two projects aimed at children and both were on the subject of Environmental Awareness and Renewable Energy (Although slightly more involved than just Solar Panels Good, Fossil Fuels bad), as opposed to any of the core subjects. It was incredibly difficult to make it engaging for them. There's been a few times when the clients who've commissioned these projects don't actually understand how boring their subject matter is. The project brief essentially consisted of vomitting walls of text at children in between mini-games. We had to explain to these people - those people who actually *teach* children - that Kids can't learn like that. We convinced them to turn their content into a free-form exploration game, where a) the content was simplified and all the complicated words were removed, b) kids got points for discovering things, c) kids could choose things for themselves, engaging them in the process.

These are the same people trumpeting iPads as the solution to all their problems. I was shocked at how disconnected some of these people are from the kids they're teaching.

I honestly believe that E-Learning-as-games work quite well if done right, especially for children.
I remember when I was a kid my mum bought some E-learning software for the Commodore 64, Fun School and I loved it. It was done really well and I enjoyed alot of the games in it.

Nowadays, since children grow up with games, and tend to see anything cheap, or graphically inferior as unworthy of their time, makes developing E-Learning software for kids harder. In some ways, the rise of Facebook games is bringing the expectation bar down for the next generation, so my job might actually get alot easier. Since teaching core-skills like Mathematics, English, Science, History etc to children takes alot more work and alot more thought than classroom teaching. Which also equates to alot more development time and thus, alot more money to pay. So if you want to come under budget, or to run on the archaic school hardware, the first thing to suffer is normally the graphical quality.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[Beeftopia]

People have differences in their intellectual abilities as surely as they have differences in their athletic abilities. Intelligence is the result of physical processes. Intelligence is not magic. Just as speed or endurance or strength are not magic.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[Anonymous Coward]

I love it when someone complains about grammar but spells the word wrong when doing so.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[datavirtue]

We have a few at our college. The IT department is ALWAYS working on them. I have also discovered that "mobile labs" (carts full of laptops) go underutilized but politics and an untested and unmeasured perception of need fuels constant expenditure on them. When they are finally retired they look brand new. There is little need for fancy interjections of technology into education (I haven't even encountered a need for a graphing calculator). The best way to implement technology into education is to enhance collaboration--the whole reason and root of the Internet. I think in class live quizzing with instant feedback is beneficial though. iPads are a joke unless the cost comes WAY down ($100 a pop).

Re:Like teacher, like student

[cheekyjohnson]

If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

And nothing ever improves...

Re:Like teacher, like student

[cheekyjohnson]

you got good grades

Which, in my opinion, doesn't prove much (since getting a good grade doesn't prove that you truly know anything). I think there's simply too many mandatory filler classes in the first place.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[cheekyjohnson]

Frankly, any electronic device given to children

I suspect that applies to just about anyone.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[Anonymous Coward]

As a teacher, myself, I have see that many teachers do now actually know how to utilize technology. Don't get me wrong, many are very proficient in the use of computers but many have no clue how they could be utilized and fear their use. To a teacher like this, the computer will be a hinderance in the classroom and a distraction because it will not be utilized propperly. To the teacher who knows the content, it is an amazing tool that can be integrated into the curriculum and lessons.

This post is asking if e-learning is viable though... In the United States, this has become distance learning or E-classes. To this extent, there are several ways in which this is being done: 1) Classes are done on the student's own time from home or 2) Classes are done in a class with the student sitting behind a computer being supervised while the teacher is not on the school site. The problem with both of these settings is the same problem with the first environment. If the parents aren't active participants in the learning and don't understand the technology, then it is useless and a waste of time/money. If the class is being taught in a classroom and there is a supervisor who is in charge of making sure the students are working, the same holds true.

In the earlier grade levels, things become even more dependant on supervision. As with every other case I listed, if the people moderating and supervising the technology don't know anything about it, it will be misused and a waste of time/money.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[wanzeo]

When I want to remember a concet from Physics 1/2, I imagine Walter Lewin from MIT Opencourseware explaining it with visible enthusiasm.

I do not remember the tedious power point that my "real" teacher used to explain the same concept.

So yes, if it ain't broken, don't fix it.

Re:Like teacher, like student

[daem0n1x]

So, in order to have an opinion, I must first choose which herd I belong too? So much for the critical thinking part...

NO.

[tomhudson]

This question has been answered MANY times. NO study has shown that students benefit - and many have shown that the diversion of resources hurts them. It's a dead horse. Stop flogging it and move on.

Re:NO.

[Ethanol-fueled]

Yes, indeed.

It also doesn't help that the discipline in schools is relaxing to an all-time low, and kids can wear hats and have cell phones and text and game all day and then tell their teachers to fuck off - and not a damn thing will happen to them once their parents threaten a lawsuit.

Re:NO.

[Praedon]

Then you need to look at ECOT.

Re:NO.

[Trepidity]

If you mean recent studies on iPads, yes, but there was some successful use of computers in the classroom in the 80s. Of course, it also depends on what you care about. Using Logo increased procedural literacy, but whether Number Munchers increased mathematical literacy is more questionable. Iirc, the most positive effects generally came around long-term motivation rather than short-term imparting of facts; stuff like an oil-drilling simulation or Logo could help get kids interested in technology.

Re:NO.

[ackthpt]

Only works when the student has the aptitude for it. There are students who do better in the classroom with interaction with the teacher. Can't expect same results for the whole population.

Re:NO.

[tomhudson]

You missed this part - their very first point:

One-on-one attention from 100% certified and highly qualified teachers.

That's not "e-learning".

Re:NO.

[ackthpt]

Yes, indeed.

It also doesn't help that the discipline in schools is relaxing to an all-time low, and kids can wear hats and have cell phones and text and game all day and then tell their teachers to fuck off - and not a damn thing will happen to them once their parents threaten a lawsuit.

Where I work we expel them. Can't have the nasty buggers spoiling the greatest gift people will receive in their lifetimes, because their parents know fuck-all about raising them.

Re:NO.

[Praedon]

You missed the entire point of ECOT all together, you didn't read how the vast majority of the time, the student is all on their own following the curriculum. Those with learning disabilities spend a little more time obviously with a teacher.

Re:NO.

[wwphx]

Clif Stoll, author of The Cuckoo's Egg, wrote a book called Silicon Snakeoil about the over-promise of computers and their failure to deliver. He had a teacher friend, I don't remember what grade of elementary school was involved. Every year the teacher would split the room in to two groups to do a report on the same subject. One group used the library, the other group whatever they could use online. The library group, year after year, produced the better quality report.

Problem is, the book is rather dated now and I don't think Stoll has done an update, so I don't know if this little experiment is still trending that way.

Re:NO.

[Wovel]

How would you like to be refuted? Government or University research? Do you prefer research from public or private universities? US, Canda, or even Europe for fun?

You should really watch extremist statements. They bury your point (the question over scarce resources may be valid) under a pile of your own nonsense.

Re:NO.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't you give us some evidence that e-learning does NOT work? So far we have anecdotal evidence that students use their iPads for playing games. And yet I can remember when I went to school, children used their tree-based text books to doodle.

On a personal level, I have found that independent study was much better than sitting in a class room listening to an overpaid teacher trans-code their textbooks into a lecture. Of course independent study isn't e-learning either, but traditional learning only ensures that people with educated, middle to upper middle class parents thrive at class.

I'd like to see some actual evidence that e-learning does NOT work instead of Trolls like Ethanol-Fueled who think that kids today are spoiled (do you remember ever hearing THAT ONE before?).

Re:NO.

[EdIII]

That's why the technology is not the problem.

We could take this even further and imagine a complete MS Surface desk that allows full interactivity, test taking, etc. Something like out of Serenity.

The problem is the teachers. Without supervision a child is going to do what comes naturally to them, which is poor decision making. That's why they need supervision and guidance. Teachers walking around, giving a course lecture, asking questions, etc. is how real learning happens in a child's life. Real learning does not happen by multiple choice either, but critical thinking and actually evaluating not just retained knowledge, but knowledge that has been understood in context.

If you just hand them a piece of technology and tell them this is what will teach you and walk away you have to be pretty foolish to be surprised when you check in a couple hours later and they did not use it for that purpose.

Home schooled? That is completely absurd beyond all measure. ADULTS have problems telecommuting. I am a very disciplined person, but even I must admit that when working from home it is far easier for me to get distracted and take longer breaks. Being in an office environment with people walking in to my office, me walking around and checking in with people, I get more done myself.

You cannot expect a child to have a device, even totally locked down, and then use it in a disciplined fashion to educate themselves.

There is no magic answer, no magic pill, no magic technology that will allow adults to walk away from their children and then expect learning and growth.

You hit part of the problem too. Teachers being underpaid, not respected, and having their hands tied when it comes to discipline. Adding technology that can be abused without fixing that fundamental problem is stupid and wasteful at this point.

Re:NO.

[joocemann]

Actually, the parents are responsible for preparing the child to learn. The teacher is there to teach, not to motivate crappy kids from disinterested parents.... I will not hold that job to a teacher. Thats like expecting the police to be patient and guide punk brats to be good lawful kids... No. The cop is there to enforce the law, and if he goes out of his way to help guife in a lesson, thats a bonus.

Re:NO.

[Praedon]

I think I remember now, why I marked you as a foe a long time ago. You have nothing insightful to say about anything. Nor do you have anything intelligent or constructive to add to any conversation. If you would of read my post, you would realize it's about electronic home-schooling and not "swishy gadgets" in the school system. Self-modded down for troll and fail.

Re:NO.

[Anonymous Coward]

And where is today's LOGO equivalent for young kids to get into elementary programming? Pick any language and look how much background knowledge you need to have to merely create a trivial program to put a pixel on a screen and draw a few lines.

Re:NO.

[sootman]

There is no single answer. Many things work well for some people and not for others. And as with many things in education, it is NOT the tool (laptop/iPad/smart board/fancy new books) but the teachers and the structure that makes the difference. Bad teachers = no learning. Good teachers, hamstrung by a bad system = no learning. I know some people who have done horribly with nontraditional education and some people who have thrived.

That said, this guy has had great successes with iPad deployments.

Re:NO.

[Anonymous Coward]

advantage of home-schooling is that you have 1 or 0.5 teachers per child (1 parent for 1 or 2 kids) and in school 1 kid has only 0.05 teachers (1 teacher for 20 kids or even less),

off course there is disadvantage-reason why it (home schooling) is not done ALWAYS

first it can be used only in first 7-11 year of schooling ( when you start learning some more specific things pre-university/university level you need someone with experience in specific subject like medicine/law/etc

second even for those first 11 years kid WILL have better education but kid will be
1.) less social and
2.) we as society will have 20% better educated kid with 10 times more resources (10 times more man/hours spent per kid) so it is question is it really worth it, you would have to have 10 people (parents) teaching kids instead 1 (teacher) teaching them all, and 9 working in factory making new-west Ford car or as police officers or whatever, it might be worth it getting 20% better educated kid with ten times more resources, but it is hard to know without better statistics (currently very small number of kids are home schooled, and even them are not that detailed compared to average kid

Re:NO.

[supercrisp]

Let's see the refutation. I'm in education and constantly am on the lookout for information on this topic. I've yet to see any studies demonstrating lasting benefits. But this isn't my particular field, so, despite my intense interest, I don't have time to do thorough research. So, if you know something, let's see it. It would do me a world of good.

Re:NO.

[theshowmecanuck]

You should really watch extremist statements.

And similarly, you should provide a couple of links otherwise it looks like you guys are just shooting bullshit canons at each other. My gut feeling based on your two points goes to the other guy; but gut feeling is all we have to go on since neither of you cites anything. However, whatever study you cite I think it behooves you to also find out who funded it. There are a lot of studies espousing the benefits of technology that we end up finding were funded by the companies selling the technology, or at best by "non-profit research institutes" that are just sock-puppets for the companies selling the technology. And even 'government studies' sometimes use their money too.

Re:NO.

[TheRaven64]

And where is today's LOGO equivalent for young kids to get into elementary programming?

Here it is, a complete pure object-oriented development environment where even the pixels are objects and can be introspected just by clicking on them and poking their properties.

Pick any language and look how much background knowledge you need to have to merely create a trivial program to put a pixel on a screen and draw a few lines

Nope, those are trivial tasks with Squeak. The one-hour demo lesson that VPRI does ends with the children drawing cars, writing programs to control them, and creating an event-driven object oriented system without realising that they're doing any more than playing.

Re:NO.

[boristhespider]

Unfortunately there's a very quick end to that process, in the UK at least - if all but one of the schools in an area expel a child, the last school have to take them on and try and teach them, and will face extreme pressure not to expel them. You end up with dumping grounds for the pupils no-one else wants, or at least you did where and when I grew up (East Midlands of UK, at school in the 90s).

Re:NO.

[TheRaven64]

I've only seen one variable consistently correlated with pupil achievement over a variety of studies: teacher enthusiasm. Interestingly, even teacher knowledge did not show a strong correlation - an enthusiastic but ignorant teacher will motivate the students to do their own research. That said, computers are tools, just like blackboards. A teacher can make effective use of them, ignore them completely, or use them to hinder learning. Some teachers used to write things on the board for pupils to copy down - I doubt any study that looked at classrooms like this would show that the blackboard improves learning. Others use them to draw diagrams to illustrate important points, helping the more visual learners in the class. When I was 7, a teacher used a BBC Micro connected to a big TV to use logo to show us basic trigonometry. We then had a teacher cover the same material a few years later, but it stuck a lot better the first time because he'd ask us for suggestions, we'd propose sequences of angles and lengths, and the computer would immediately come back with the shape.

Re:NO.

[Anonymous Coward]

THIS !!!
i mean is it really that hard to provide more natural progression to more intelligent of us with professors that can actually commit their time to us,

is it hard enabling students that are good at math and biology option to work on advanced/several years higher education in those classes only, and still have normal (for our age) tutoring for classes like languages, history and such ...

also if i am in class with 30 kids of which 10 have difficulty with subject/barely pass professor has to spend his/her time mostly on them and does not have time to actually teach more advanced/out of scope of lesson subjects to few more intelligent kids, i am sure it would be advantageous for country to actually make dedicated "advanced" classes that cover lessons faster/more broadly/more advanced and have less kids per class (10 instead of 30 for example) because we will more than make up for extra cost when we grow up by being able to make more things/make more money/give more for taxes/indirectly give more to school

special schools are not good solution to this problem because while my science intelligence might be much higher than average kid, on social/language intelligence scale i am normal, or even maybe a bit lower than them, maybe some additional school where i go only for specific subjects, and "normal" school adjusting to plans/requirements of that special school for math/biology.

we are not all same, some of us need different environment to reach our maximum, but that accommodation would be more than worth resources spent for society as a whole

Re:NO.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the parents are responsible for preparing the child to learn. The teacher is there to teach, not to motivate crappy kids from disinterested parents.... I will not hold that job to a teacher. Thats like expecting the police to be patient and guide punk brats to be good lawful kids... No. The cop is there to enforce the law, and if he goes out of his way to help guife in a lesson, thats a bonus.

Your statements are so ignorant and Right Wing that I will be surprised if you don't get Moderated Insightful (based on the current trends of the agenda-based moderation system).

I will give you a clue: most parents will not have a degree in psychology, education, marketing, or anything else. It is the teachers who are there to teach. And yes teaching means motivating and making sure that children understand the instructions. Teaching means having the training and resources to, for example, understand that some children may need to have more attention because of attention deficit disorders, dyslexia, etc. Parents unfortunately don't usually have the training or resources to realize that their schools will not help their children learn, but rather that the parents are responsible.

You're statement and attitude do provide evidence why e-learning is important, because the human element in teaching will always be the weakest link: whether it be parents, teachers, or the ignorant public that help decide policy.

If the parents are responsible then who is going to teach the parents how to teach and motivate their children? How can parents motivate their children when they are at work and their children are at school? This is the type of irrational, right wing logic that is causing children to fail.

So yes, intelligent people may not be popular and we may not have Karma, but at least we can spot Bullshit when we see it.

Re:NO.

[Hognoxious]

if all but one of the schools in an area expel a child, the last school have to take them on and try and teach them, and will face extreme pressure not to expel them.

The solution to that would be to ensure that every area has at least one Borstal.

Re:NO.

[daem0n1x]

Maybe you should force the parents to attend school together with the children, then.

Re:NO.

[aurizon]

e-learning needs the proper method and programming. The method that uses short modules to teach a concept and then quizzes the student to measure comprehension is best. Is the comprehension shows a lack, the student is re-looped into a variant with another explanatory approach, and again, if needed. 3 failures can trigger human intervention to assist the student. Success can be rewarded with a choice of games for a short interval.

There are a number of these out there, such as the MIT site http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2011/mitx-education-initiative-1219.html and the Khan Academy http://www.khanacademy.org/, these are among the best

Apple and the schools need to re-think the lockdown on the educational ipads so that only teaching apps and reward games are allowed. Surfing to a school site with solution sources will work. Unrestricted surfing on safe sites for an interval can be one of the rewards.

Being a retired teacher, I was conscious of the fact that the unions feared computers would reduce the need for teaching staff in the same manner as in the office and industry, so they opposed it. In addition, the incremental pay scale here in Canada means that new teachers start at $35,000 or so, and ramp up to $80,000 after 10 or more years. This means you can not get engineers, chemists, pharmacists, doctors, and many other college grads going into teaching because they can start at $60,000 or more on day 1 and never look back. The ranks of teacher input is filled with arts people and immigrants of various types who can not get their higher degree recognized here. A great levelling is needed, more to start and less at the end!!!

Re:NO.

[tomhudson]

No, the studies in the '80s also came to the same conclusion. Not a single case where there was a long-term benefit, and MANY cases where it resulted in less less learning.

Computers are not a "magic bullet" to fix the problem of teachers who can't teach and parents who don't give a ****.

As far as "getting kids interested in technology" - for what? So that by 35 they're "too old" and have to find another career, or their jobs have been outsourced (If it's in an O'Reily book, it's going to be outsourced).

Re:NO.

[Anonymous Coward]

NUMBER MUNCHERS TAUGHT ME PRIMES AND OREGON TRAIL TAUGHT ME DEATH.

I am a product of the systm, (and that system used 5 1/2"s)

fffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

Re:NO.

[tomhudson]

And how iis that any different from what was done in the Australian outback decades ago, over ham radios? They both need three things that the VAST majority lack today - parents who will actually pay attention to their kids' needs, teachers who can teach, and students who are motivated.

elearning does nothing to fix this problem.

Re:NO.

[tomhudson]

Sure - cite ONE study that was not funded by the people supplying the equipment. Just one. When I went to teach computers in an elementary school, the FIRST thing I did was unplug the computers. They got in the way of real learning, and the kids had a lot more fun (and learned more) by actual human interaction than sitting in front of a screen.

Re:NO.

[broken_chaos]

We need to teach everyone how to use computers. We don't need to teach everyone with computers.

Re:NO.

[Hognoxious]

You're statement and attitude do provide evidence why e-learning is important

Indeed.

Re:NO.

[EdIII]

You're wrong, and being simplistic.

Raising and teaching a child is a cooperative effort on the part of the teachers and the parents. Teachers are there to motivate students, to inspire them, and to figure out where attention is needed. That is the mark of a great teacher.

Parents cannot teach as well because they don't have the time if they are working two jobs, and teaching is not so easy. A great teacher is not only educated themselves but understands *how* to teach a child.

Where parents fit in is discipline and respect for the teacher, as well as a well rounded upbringing where morality and ethics are instilled in the child. If the parents are doing their job, then the teachers job is much easier.

When I said the problem is the teachers, I did not mean to denigrate teachers at all. I meant that teachers are vital to teach children, and that equipment will never be a substitute for an adult in a child's life.

There are a lot of teachers right now that are a problem, but I can hardly blame them when they face uphill battles everyday worse than any IT grunts day.

If things are going to change, regardless of technology, it is both parents and teachers that need to change.

Re:NO.

[Anonymous Coward]

I work at ECoT (The Electronic Classroom of Tomorrow, an Ohio-based public K-12 school) and our current enrollment is at 13,000 and we graduated about 2,000 earlier in the year. That was a national record that no other singular school has been able to do. Our school is geared toward students who either prefer to not participate in a traditional classroom or can't due to various reasons. Our students do well and can pass any standardised state exam and those are administered in person, if I recall correctly, and not online. They can choose to use their own computer or one provided by ECoT and most choose the latter and we take measures to lock down the PC so they can't goof off. At any rate most kids do their work, turn in assignment, pass tests and graduate. We have social engagements on average of 1 every other day at some grade level. I would call this a success and enjoy my work immensely.

Re:NO.

[budgenator]

Right Here

Re:NO.

[betterunixthanunix]

e-learning needs the proper method and programming

I would say that e-learning needs to be about programming. We give kids computers that require no real thought on the part of the users, and then wonder why the kids are spending more time playing games written by other people than they are learning using the computers.

Instead of starting with the premise that millions of lines of code need to be written before kids can benefit from computers in schools, why not start with the premise that kids should be challenged to think? Give them computers that include just enough software for them to start writing their own programs, make computer programming part of the curriculum, and give special extra credit to kids who have an aptitude for computer use. When you see a kid who managed to get a popular Windows or iPad game to run on a Minix system, the kid should give a presentation to the rest of the class about what they did, rather than have their computer taken away.

Or we can continue to make thinking a secondary goal in our education system.

Re:NO.

[Trepidity]

I suggest you read some of Seymour Papert's studies then. Nobody argues that they're a magic bullet, merely that technology of many types, whether "pencil" or "computer", can be used successfully in education.

Re:NO.

[misexistentialist]

I imagine software that activates an electric shock collar when certain metrics are not met.

Re:NO.

[EdIII]

That won't work on children you sick bastard.

Although, I am implementing such a system in our cubicle farms starting in January.

Re:NO.

[White Flame]

What we need to do is not "integrate" tech into a classroom setting, but replace the classroom setting with tech. Then we can use the classroom for group work, question/answer or discussion sessions, and demonstrations. Learning a lot of the core materials solely through reading, watching videos, and automated quizzing can get you a long way through the tedium normally found in the classroom; then you can use the face-time of the school facilities for better purposes.

But just throwing shiny toys in kids' hands is a recipe for disaster.

Re:NO.

[tomhudson]

We need to teach everyone how to use computers.

Why? Is there some kid who DOESN'T know how to use a computer by the time they get to grade 3? Really ... we do NOT need to teach kids how to use computers any more than we need to teach them how to use a TV remote control ... sheesh!

Re:NO.

[bcrowell]

NO study has shown that students benefit

A good counterexample is software developed at MSU called LON-CAPA, which is used to help math and science students check their answers to homework problems. Here is a list of publications about the system. For an example of a study that shows there is a benefit, try D. A. Kashy, G. Albertelli, E. Kashy and M. Thoennessen, Teaching with ALN Technology: Benefits and Costs, Journal of Engineering Education, 89, 499 (2001).

Another example that I've heard about recently, although on a purely anecdotal basis, is that handheld devices are turning out to be extremely helpful for working with autistic kids. I know someone who works with severely autistic children, many of whom have no language. They have ipads in the classroom, and she says it really helps a lot. For instance, if the kid wants fish sticks for lunch, they have an app where the kid can pop up a picture of fish sticks and show it to the person serving the food. This is way better than having the kid screaming or biting because he wants fish sticks but can't express that desire. I don't know if there is any peer-reviewed research yet on the effectiveness of the technique -- it sounds like it's fairly recent. However, if you google "ipad autism" you'll turn up a ton of material.

So maybe what you meant was that you didn't know of any studies that showed a benefit, or that there is probably no benefit from throwing a bunch of hardware at the kids without doing all the hard work of finding the right software and making sure it's used in an effective way.

That would be a completely different statement.

Re:NO.

[jrminter]

Let me answer your first objection. if done poorly, you are correct. We home schooled our children from grades 3-8. They went to public high school from grades 9-12. We augmented home lessons with group lessons, church youth group, and scouting. When our children entered high school, they were already well-socialized and made new friends easily. Their teachers were pleased that they were already self-directed learners. This enabled our daughter to take a second year of calculus in high school as independent study under the direction of their most senior math teacher. The decision of whether to choose home schooling, private schooling, or public schools is a decision that needs to be carefully considered by parents. I would note that the optimum choice may be different at different stages for any specific child.

I will address your second point by noting that a parent's primary responsibility is to see to the needs of their own children. When feasible, this is done in community because we are interdependent. That said, there are times when our neighbors make choices - such as not enforcing sufficient discipline in schools or forcing values that a parent finds repugnant, that the parent must vote with their feet. I agree that we are a multicultural society and there are benefits to learning about other value systems We always taught our children to treat others with different views with courtesy and respect, trying to truly understand the position before deciding whether to agree or disagree. That did not mean that we needed to embrace every belief and accept that all beliefs were equally true or valid.

Re:NO.

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as "getting kids interested in technology" - for what? So that by 35 they're "too old" and have to find another career, or their jobs have been outsourced (If it's in an O'Reily book, it's going to be outsourced).

Oh noes we better not teach our children anything that a Chinese or Indian kid could learn and do for half the price! Lets not teach them how to do basic math or read either, that might get outsourced too!

Re:NO.

[modmans2ndcoming]

exactly.

My kids have consequences for bad grades, I tell them what grade I expect from them after every progress report, I teach them how to study, and that "no homework" does not mean they have no work to do for school.

My oldest son had reading problems when he was young due to an diagnosed eye tracking problem. He fell 3 years behind. I taught he how to work hard for school and now he is going into High School with a 4.0 in standard curriculum. His life was reading, and homework for the last 3 years, but he achieved a level of success most people would never have expected from him because I taught him to work hard and expected that level of engagement from him.

a student's success in education is impacted so much by the parents for most children, that disinterested parents will kill a child's future.

Re:NO.

[modmans2ndcoming]

do you really believe a parent needs to know the material that the student is learning in order for a student to be successful? The parent's job is to teach good work ethic and study habits. they teach good behavior and provide expectations of performance... that is 75% of the effort needed for a normal student to perform well in school. Without that parental involvement, then I would put my money on that child failing miserably.

Re:NO.

[modmans2ndcoming]

when it comes to religious beliefs... all are equally true and valid... when it comes to opinions, you are correct... not all are equally true and valid.

Re:NO.

[Stormthirst]

So the parent loses their job? Way to go.

Re:NO.

[boristhespider]

Haha. That might be an entertaining proposition. In the current political climate it may even get through...

Re:NO.

[Anonymous Coward]

Kids also doodle and write notes to each other with pencils and paper. Ban those from the classroom, too!

Re:NO.

[boristhespider]

It's a nice idea that gets suggested but it's a seriously bad one. In many cases these are not nice people. You'd be at risk of as much shit from the parents as you'd get from the children - and with even less prospect of control over them. I'd not be comfortable unleashing a lot of these parents on teachers who lack the means to deal with them.

Re:NO.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not entirely correct. Yes, parents need to emphasize the importance of education, make sure their children do their homework, and not lawyer up and exempt their child from every punishment the school gives out for disrupting class.

However, it is the job of teachers, to some extent, to make their subject interesting. The most boring teacher in the world will hinder students' performance in even the most interesting classes. If a teacher stands up and the board and drones on about some subject for an hour and a half and expects a class full of 10th graders to sit there, take notes, and not fall asleap then that teacher is a fucking moron.

Re:NO.

[i.r.id10t]

Especially with the wacky ways some things are taught. I got in trouble a few weeks ago with my daughter's math teacher - they were working on ratios, and finding different ways of showing the same ratio. Daughter was expected to use a ratio table, and go thru 3 different sets of values to arrive at the 4th set. I showed her how to do it with algebra. I thought it was easier, daughter thinks it is easier (and even fun! cool, i'm learning algebra) but the teacher called me in for a conference....

Re:NO.

[i.r.id10t]

Lets go back a few hundred years. Should classes that use printed books (Thanks Gutenberg!) be about book binding and press plate preparation?

Re:NO.

[cdrguru]

Today, you have the parents actively working against the schools. They aren't telling their children they have to do their homework. They aren't helping. They are telling the children they are "special" and above all this. And this attitude comes right back at the school - how dare the schoold administration do anything that might damage their child's ego.

The "it takes a village" philosophy is part of the problem. You seem to have some grasp that the problem is the parents and an anti-school culture but at the same time you want to remove responsibility from the parents and put it on the schools. If the school teaches "do you homework" and the parents say "come on, let's watch the game!" who is going to win out in the end? We have seen 50+ years of it and let me tell you, it isn't the child that wins.

The parents do not have to know the material thatt their children are being taught, although if they think about it they probably do somewhere in the dark recesses. This isn't the parents of the 60s not coping well with experimental "new math" programs. Today's parents aren't just not helping their children with homework - they are telling them to blow it off. They are saying in words and by example "look at me, I didn't get good grades in school and I'm doing just fine." This only leads in one direction and for the most part it is something only society and parents can fix.

Of course, there is the "other" approach. Read Brave New World - no, not the movie actually read the book. At least the beginning. See that in the 1930s the idea of moving the children into a total immersion educational environment outside of any sort of home life was actually thought about and considered one possible way of the future. Understand that it is certainly one way out of this mess.

We are certainly looking at maybe one or two more generations of students that are mostly anti-learning. There will be a few that persevere in spite of cultural influences and they will go on to be all we have in science and engineering. Where do we go then? I don't know, but we certainly will not have people with the talents to go to the Moon or Mars ever again.

Re:NO.

[Anonymous Coward]

...do you really believe a parent needs to know the material that the student is learning in order for a student to be successful?

No not at all. It is this ignorance and the prejudice of "reading between the lines" where most people fail in their extremist views.

Right Wing propaganda will not make a child successful. Ideology, no matter how morally righteous you may think it is, is not going to educate a child. So you can smack a child around all you want to at home to instill discipline in them, but in the classroom the parent has no influence. That's where the teacher takes over. If the teacher finds that a child isn't paying attention because he is constantly looking out the window, all of the yelling and hitting in the world won't make the child pay attention (or whatever other "good work ethic and study habits" you people decide to instill into your children).

If the teacher can't make the lessons engaging, or spot ADD issues, etc, then hiring teachers is just a waste of time and money, isn't it? According to your mentality teachers are no better than parents, so anybody should be able to be a teacher regardless of training.

It's interesting and coincidental that some teachers always seem to graduate successful students and other teachers don't, regardless of the child's background. I'm not sure what the agenda is with wanting children to fail just because they don't have educated parents. And yes, the degree of education a parent has directly determines how well a child does at school. Most stupid but educated people don't realize how hard it is to learn algebra (for example) when they can't ask their parent's for help because they may have no high school education (my dad has a grade 2 education: which is probably why people always referred to me as "stupid" and "loser" most of my life). But it doesn't really matter.

You people are correct, if a person is unlucky enough to be born with the wrong parents then they've basically lost at life. I don't expect the teacher or the school system to be of any help whatsoever. Which is one reason why I don't view school shootings as evil or surprising; it's just another part of fate.

So yes ideally parent's shouldn't rely on the school system, unfortunately sometimes when they get home from working a 12 hour shift they don't have time to learn how to do algebra: instead they have to go shopping, mow the lawn, do the laundry and all those other lower-class things. And yes sometimes they have to sleep. But that doesn't fit into the ideal Conservative lifestyle.

Re:NO.

[Anonymous Coward]

Technology like any tool can be both useful and detrimental. When Ti Calculators were introduced to schools it was thought they would be helpful in education, but eventually some students began installing games on them and other began to rely on them. Some even figured out how to use them to cheat on tests. However to some students these aids were very helpful. A tool's value depends on how it's used, for example you wouldn't use a hammer to cut glass, or a glass cutter to drive in a nail. What i mean to say is how is an electronic device going to be useful if you cant tell how it's being used. A computer can display a graph, record an instructor for audio notes, allow searching for a topic in the textbook, allow look-up of information on the web (Wikipedia was often useful in my CS classes, Red-Black/AVL trees make much more sense when you can watch step by step the manipulation of the data.), and allow for unique methods of displaying information (such as 3d graphs). Or they can simply be used for games. (Runesape was common for some CS students.) So, how do you separate the good from the bad? Well that is up to the user, you can guide them but in the end a student who does not want to learn wont learn no matter how many tools you give them. You can guide them, limit resources (EG block offending web sites), prevent instillation of material that isn't orientated towards learning, or as your wife has done just remove the tool that is causing the failure. Sadly the last is the cheapest and easiest solution.

Re:NO.

[ILongForDarkness]

One could add though that most teachers do not have a degree in psychology either. The fact that one or two courses in 200 level undergrad psych magically makes a teacher an expert in psychological issues is unproven, but if true perhaps we could add that to the lamaze classes. I agree with you though the beauty of elearning is its fairness. Everyone has the opportunity to interact with the device/lesson in exactly the same way, there isn't the teachers pet, there isn't the difficult student that distracts everyone, the kid can play the lesson back rather than having to rely on notes etc. That is the key lesson of the internet I think: if the access to information is leveled so will be the power/opportunities for advancement. That is what bugs us in the west we now have to compete with a kid in India, a grandmother in the Ukraine and guy in a wheelchair in China.

Re:NO.

[ILongForDarkness]

I agree with you to some point about the outsourcing. I think IT is becoming an additional skill. For example my current job is as a physicist. However the fact that I have a software engineering and IT background helped me get the job. It wasn't in the formal job description but it probably helped put me at the top of the pile. Similarly for other science jobs, engineering, healthcare, heck to be a small office manager now you need to know how to set up the offices router.

There is a whole class of work with problems but no money to solve them having someone that has the knowledge to solve them and can do that on their spare time is invaluable and not easily outsourced. It is highly unlikely a kid in India is going to have the experience on multimillion dollar healthcare equipment and understand physics well enough to code things for the domain I work in. Nor can my work pay even $20/hr for that work as they'd have to have a financial reason for it where as it might just be a time savings reason (with salaried employees in small numbers you don't really care about there time in money sense just in quality of life).

Re:NO.

[tomhudson]

Checking your homework answers is NOT eLearning. Sheesh, are you THAT desperate to prove a failed idea? Next you'll be trying to say that 2012 is NOT going to be the year that everyone realizes that there never, ever, in a million years be a "year of the linux desktop."

Re:NO.

[modmans2ndcoming]

That is complete BS and you should go talk to the principal. The teacher should be encouraging the students to get the correct answer by what ever means they can, not forcing a particular methodology upon them.

Re:NO.

[tomhudson]

Red-Black/AVL trees make much more sense when you can watch step by step the manipulation of the data

If you can't visualize it independently of someone showing you pretty pictures and holding your hand every step of the way, you have not yet developed the aptitude to create new stuff - only implement that which you've seen before.

Extending that to all education, it's a poor education that relies so much on such aids that the student cannot "imagine" anything in their head first.

We really need to get back to basics - things like reading a book and using your imagination to "visualize" the abstract words - instead of everything being the same thin gruel. The real problems, of course, are parents who are SO stupid that they can't even beat a kid at the board game "Can you beat a 5th Grader?", and teachers who are SO stupid that they also can't beat their students at the same game, so they "teach to the test."

Re:NO.

[modmans2ndcoming]

you assume too much about me. I am no right winger... I am perhaps to the left of President Obama.... The fact that a student's success in school and life is dependent on the parents is not a right or left wing issue, it is a fact of life. I expect results from my children, I do not hit my children, but I do provide appropriate consequences that gives them an incentive to behave well and perform to my expectations.

Re:NO.

[Anonymous Coward]

One could add though that most teachers do not have a degree in psychology either. The fact that one or two courses in 200 level undergrad psych magically makes a teacher an expert in psychological issues is unproven, but if true perhaps we could add that to the lamaze classes.

The point is that teachers DO have enough education to know when to send the kid to a specialist (for example I remember when I was a kid the school sent me to a speech therapist, probably because I learned to speak from parents who were ignorant peasant farmers from another country). I can guarantee you that my parents would have never realized that anything was unusual about my vocal articulations.

As an aside (and an example), I just finished reading Ozzy Osbourne's autobiography (an interesting read). According to Ozzy he learned next to nothing in school, and people thought he was an idiot because he was a class clown (saving face by being funny instead of admitting he didn't know the answer). It wasn't until he became a multi-millionare and went into 500 dollar a day drug rehab facilities that he realized that he was dyslexic and had Attention Deficit Disorder. His parents, employers, school, and parole officers just thought he was an idiot. Lucky for him he knew how to sing.

Today, teachers are trained to spot issues like Ozzy's and send them to experts (and get expert advice) on how to cope and be successful in life. To my knowledge there is no parental manual or license that adults have to obtain before becoming parents, so it is generally best to leave these things up to the professionals (I'm not against home schooling, but that is a different issue). Teachers may not be experts in psychology, but at least they have the education, training and experience to know when a student needs intervention. That is something nobody should expect a parent to have the ability to do.

I do find it sad however that I have to spend so much time defending and explaining my answers when the OP of this thread can get +5 Insightful for stating some vague, unarticulated position with no evidence, explanation or citations. It's not the Karma (specifically) that annoys me, but the general attitude of people:

This question has been answered MANY times. NO study has shown that students benefit - and many have shown that the diversion of resources hurts them. It's a dead horse. Stop flogging it and move on.

Re:NO.

[93 Escort Wagon]

No, no, no, no, NO.

When talking to a foe, you are supposed to start with: "So we meet again, Mr. Ethanol-fueled".

Re:NO.

[wmelnick]

It depends on what the teacher wants to say. It might be that the teacher is purposely teaching them this way then moving on to algebra and wants the student to know the hard way before learning the easy way. That is how I learned and while I do not know if they still teach kids that way today (my kids did not learn that way) it is possible.

Re:NO.

[jrminter]

Sorry, but human religious beliefs/assertions make contradictory claims. They cannot all be equally true and valid at the same time. A and (not A) cannot be true at the same time. It is possible that all could be wrong simultaneously, but all simply cannot be equally true and valid at the same time.

In a multi-cultural society - especially one with unprecedented access to information - the solution which provides individual liberty and responsibility for choice is to have free and open discourse among willing participants. Truth does not fear scrutiny. This requires listening and not talking past one another. No one is served by strawman arguments. A Christian professor, Gordon Fee, put it like this, "I cannot say, 'I agree,' until I can say, 'I understand.' " For Fee, the test was that one party could express the other party's argument in their own words with the result that the second party agreed this accurately represented their belief. Fee's position (and I agree) is that then and only then, could one have meaningful dialog. By the way, I think Fee's standards work in any venue prone to disagreement.

That said, one should be able to opt out of those conversations by choice.

Re:NO.

[wmelnick]

I did hot my kids - I think twice each. After that they knew that I would consider it and I thought that it would no longer help. I do fall quite to the right of Obama, but I do not view this as left or right. Parents do not have to be educated. Parents need to let kids know that they expect them to do well - that they expect homework to be done before anything else gets done. The reports sent home from school can tell you if the student is doing well and doing homework - you do not need to know the subjects. In an extreme case a kid that was doing badly in school but was a naturally talented athlete was brought into my cousin's house (left of Obama) and treated as a son. When the expectation of good grades was established the child started working harder to get good grades and took pride when he did better. When he went back to visit his real parents and told them of his success with the grades they did not care at all. Fortunately that kid got his grades up high enough that with his athletic ability he was able to get into the local state college on an athletic scholarship and is doing well in both athletics and academics now.

Re:NO.

[supercrisp]

This matches my experience with "computers" in the classroom. I use the scare-quotes because there are so damn many ways to use the things. One of my more effective uses of them is teaching library research. When the actual library database is on the overhead, and students are throwing out search terms for an actual topic, or discussing actual database entries, the whole process is a lot more engaging. Students see the environment they will use, see how different terms are more effective, etc. ad nauseum. I've also used multimedia a lot. But I haven't had as much luck with individual use of computers in classrooms. More often that not, students start farting around on Facebook or something. I can't blame them. The same thing happens to me, which is why pull the plug sometimes in my office, or block addresses of places like Facebook. I need to get the temptation out of my face. One thing I have found--and I'm talking about found in a small study with a sample size of about 300--is that all this talk about the digital divide and digital natives is more or less a lot of hooey when it comes to actual useful skills. The "digital natives" can text like Gutenberg in heat or plagiarize like Ben Franklin on weed, but they can't insert a header in Word or set up a useful Google search.

Re:NO.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're such a retard.

Re:NO.

[grantspassalan]

------ Home schooled? That is completely absurd beyond all measure. ----- Before our modern era, children were home-schooled for centuries, long before modern regimented group learning by "education professionals". Even in the so-called dark Middle Ages, there were many skilled people building cathedrals, castles and palaces, all of which were built without fancy technology or even a calculator. People who could afford to do so, hired a tutor whose job it was to educate and watch over their children. People who could not afford a private tutor, educated their own children, by involving them in whatever activity they were involved in. My father learned the basics of being a baker and maker of fancy pastries from my grandfather. After my dad had learned all he could from his dad, he went away at the age of 14 to be an apprentice in another city. At the age of 20, my dad took over the baking business of my grandfather. Now, modern technology has made homeschooling easier than ever. Even the richest people in the days of old likely did not have a library of more than a few hundred books. Today however the entire Library of Congress and much more can be accessed by an iPod or an inexpensive laptop computer. A parent who decides to take the time to interact with their children on a one on one basis, can use these resources. In today's world, taking the time means living on a considerably lower economic level than our modern commercialized advertising-based society pressures all of us to live. My wife and I decided to make this trade-off by moving to an area where living expenses were very much less than in the big modern city environment. Our family income dropped to about 20% of what it had been before, but the chance to homeschool our children was more than worth it. My wife who had been a professional school teacher spent about 2 to 3 hours a day teaching our children to read and write. I would spend additional time teaching the mathematics not with dry, rote exercises, but real life problems involving horses which they loved and various agricultural math assignments. They learned to write real letters to their grandparents in both English and German, informing them of their adventures and they reported to them what they were lerning. They often had to read out loud to both of us and then we would discuss whatever they had read. They also had all kinds of animals to take care of which taught them responsibility and consistency. When we finally decided to put them into the public school system after 8th grade, they were well ahead of their age mates in academic skills and knowledge. In 9th and 10th grade they won 1st and 2nd place in the school district wide spelling contest. Home schooling can be done, but it requires draconian economic sacrifices of the entire family. Most of our things, including the kids clothes were purchased in thrift shops or garage sales. Unfortunately, most people today are oriented way too much toward the materialistic lifestyle which prevents them to make considerable sacrifices required. For us and our children it was well worth it.

Re:NO.

[EdIII]

I would suggest adding the "recent" advancement of paragraphs to your curriculum :)

That aside, you misunderstood me. I meant that home schooling is completely absurd beyond all measure, with electronic devices only.

Your hands approach is exactly what is required, which is to say actual parental involvement. I honestly don't think that kids left alone with electronic devices, even with very creative and innovative ways to present the material will succeed. If children had that much discipline, they would be adults. I say that while walking past a persons office today several times where all they did was play minesweeper. I'm chalking that up to the day after Christmas and they did not want to be in the office.

Education is a difficult thing to accomplish and we are doing it extremely poorly as a society right now in the US. I commend your sacrifices, which is the single most important ingredient to our success as a people right now, which is sorely lacking. Your children sound like they will be very well rounded adults.

You prove my most salient point in my post. Parental involvement in a child's development beyond just simply being there.

Re:NO.

[gnalle]

You need to look at the consequences one at a time.

• If students use e-books they they don't forget their books.
• If the teacher distributes a pdf then the students don't throw it away.
• Many students cannot type fast enough to take notes on an ipad.
• You lose some students to Facebook, but at least the horizontal screen make it easy for the teacher to see what the student is doing.
• The students need access to a real computer if they need to work on a long report or essay in class.
• The students probably need access to a real computer if they need to work with spreadsheets.
• If you install a browser with flash then you can use interactive websites to add variation to the lessons.
   

I am a high school teacher so some of these points may not ne relevant to young children.

Re:NO.

[ollini]

Can you please give the references for these studies?

Re:NO.

[daem0n1x]

I dont't think they have one, to begin with...

Re:NO.

[Anonymous Coward]

A Right Wing Troll gets +5 Insightful, and my educated and thoughtful post remained at moderation level zero. My prediction was correct (when I said):

Your statements are so ignorant and Right Wing that I will be surprised if you don't get Moderated Insightful (based on the current trends of the agenda-based moderation system).

Unfortunately this says more about society than it says about YOU.

Re:NO.

[bcrowell]

Checking your homework answers is NOT eLearning. Sheesh, are you THAT desperate to prove a failed idea?

OK, so what's your definition of e-learning? The OP seems to think of it as including note-taking. So you're saying it includes note-taking but not checking your answers to homework problems? Do you claim that yours is a widely accepted definition?

Re:NO.

[modmans2ndcoming]

since they are all false, then they are equally true and valid.

Re:NO.

[modmans2ndcoming]

It is all about the parenting. Teachers simply provide a path for the students to take for their education.... parents have to make the kids walk the path.

Re:NO.

[tomhudson]

1. Or they could just leave the physical textbooks in school, and have access to copies electronically at home - best of both worlds.

2. Students shouldn't be taking notes during class - if they're taking notes, that's a sign that either the teacher doesn't know how to engage them, is poor at preparation, or is "teaching to the test". You're not learning when you're just sitting there taking notes. Might as well just replace the teacher with powerpoint slides - after all, in both cases, you're just making the student dumber.

3. Most classes won't be working with spreadsheets.

4. Let them play with interactive websites on their own time.

Re:NO.

[tomhudson]

Can you please exercise your google-fu instead of expecting to have everything handed to you on a plate? This isn't school, where the teachers are so bad at teaching that they hand you the answers so that they won't have TOO many students failing. (also note that many of those studies were reported in dead-tree media well before the internet was invented, so good luck with that).

Re:NO.

[tomhudson]

Learning does NOT include sitting there like a stooge taking notes. That's the first sign of a terrible teacher and students who are not learning. That it's "expected" so much is a sign of a broken system.

Sure, you can replace THOSE teachers with a powerpoint presentation - after all, powerpoint makes you just as dumb.

If you want to fix the system, you don't do it with iPads - you can start by testing the teachers and firing those who fail.

Re:NO.

[antdude]

Oregon Trail! ;)

Do schools still use LOGO these days? When I was a kid/student back in the 1980s/80s, my learned LOGO and others. My six grade teacher, Mr. Mangel (I wonder if he still around and reads /.), was radical/rad. He was a family man aged geek/nerd and even had one of those robotic LOGO turtle that plotted/drew from Apple 2 computers on big paper on the floor. LOGO helped a lot in geometry, art, drafting/architecture, etc.

Re:NO.

[bcrowell]

Learning does NOT include sitting there like a stooge taking notes. That's the first sign of a terrible teacher and students who are not learning. That it's "expected" so much is a sign of a broken system.

Sure, you can replace THOSE teachers with a powerpoint presentation

You've wandered off the point. You made an extremely broad assertion about "e-learning." I gave a counterexample. You then claimed that my counterexample didn't fall within your definition of "e-learning." I then asked you to define your terms. You still haven't defined your terms.

Re:NO.

[ahodgson]

There are lots. Sadly they go to the schools that also can't afford to buy computers.

Re:NO.

[tomhudson]

... and what happened before computers - nobody learned anything? Judging just by the grammar and spelling mistakes that people still make despite having a spell checker, I'd say that computers have definitely had a major negative impact on the basic skills of the population at large.

Re:NO.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's me again. I didn't bother to reply (initially) because I thought the parent (of this post) was very apropos:

you assume too much about me. I am no right winger... I am perhaps to the left of President Obama....

Being left of the extreme Right does not make yourself "left". Do you support state ownership of all (or most) businesses? Do you support caps on business oriented income (lets say anybody that makes over 100K needs to redistribute their wealth to the less fortunate)? Do you believe that the Earth that you walk upon cannot possibly be "owned", and that it is an inherent right for everybody to have access to land, shelter, food and water?

Let's face it, just because you are not ultra-orthodox in your political beliefs does not mean that you are "left" of anything.

So I notice you didn't even bother to condemn the Right Wing poster who admits to child abuse (yep, lets not full ourselves, Right Wing people think that physically and psychologically hurting children is an acceptable form of discipline).

Notice how the simple and less thoughtful posts in this thread get up-moderated. Notice this.

I'm not asking you to change your politics. I'm just asking you to have intelligence. Quite frankly I don't really give a shit if people abuse children. It doesn't really bother me. I just wish that people would be honest about it.

And yes, neglect is abuse. And this rather middle-class rant (in this whole topic) against lower class children is really disappointing. Again: not because I am against child abuse, but because I am against hypocrisy and stupidity.

Re:NO.

[modmans2ndcoming]

If you are claiming that in order to be "left wing" you have to be an extreme Marxist, then no..... I am NOT left wing I guess..... Do I think that there needs to be a greater amount of wealth redistribution? hell yeah... Do I think that poverty is an unavoidable symptom of capitalism? absolutely. Do I think the rich should pay out the nose in extra taxes for unearned income? yes yes yes..... They should even pay a lot more for earned income because they are exploiting the country's resources, services and infrastructure more than others thus, just like a use tax, they should pay more to maintain those resources, services and infrastructure. Is it in a country's best interest to provide free access to healthcare? absolutely. a healthy population is a productive one, it is one that does not spread disease and lowers the costs of operating the economy.

All those positions make me a lefty.....I am NOT a far lefty because I do believe that in a competitive market (different than a free market) the best outcomes can be had for MOST needs....I think that someone who earns their way to becoming rich should be allowed to be rich (Not a fan of inheritance of the riches), and I guess since I believe in private property and am generally a social libertarian, I must be too right wing for your arbitrary choice of where the political center is.

Not really, no

[Anonymous Coward]

It's very easy in PR and political terms to throw hardware at the problem. Providing teachers the time and expertise to integrate the technology into the lessons is much harder. The only cases of this I've seen work are when the demand for tech comes bottom-up; from the teachers.

Control the devices

[CFBMoo1]

Lock them down, you need to assert control over school electronic property. This should go beyond what walled gardens like Apple does and if Apple can't provide that kind of control to individual institutions then you need to look to other tools instead of iPads and such. Just because a student can take it home doesn't mean the student should have complete control of the device since it's still school property.

Re:Control the devices

[MickyTheIdiot]

How come every I.T. manager turns into a fascist?

Re:Control the devices

[vlm]

How come every I.T. manager turns into a fascist?

Its just a reflection of our fascist culture. It shows up well in policies for control of electronic devices; more so than, say, a pool lifeguard or a bartender, but its in there, if it could only break thru its shelf and get out like it does for IT managers.

Re:Control the devices

[Xugumad]

Pain avoidance. It's challenging to be constantly faced with self-inflicted problems on the part of the users, and not want to restrict them until they can't do any damage.

(We dealt with this by auditing everything, and all "Delete" buttons actually just hide the entity in question :) )

Re:Control the devices

[lennier1]

It's not exactly hard to have some fun with school IT nowadays.

During my niece's graduation year their classroom was upgraded with modern computers. Wanna guess how long it took for them to discover that the classroom's web filter didn't apply to systems with an IP above 255 in the respective subnet?

Re:Control the devices

[ScentCone]

How come every I.T. manager turns into a fascist?

How come everyone who's never been responsible for the consequences of not having a handle on those issues is so unable to use the word "fascist" correctly? Red lights in traffic are fascist! Banks that won't cash your checks when you have nothing in your account are fascist! Dogs that bark at squirrels are fascists! Government agencies that provide books to students for their education, but then discipline the students for tearing out the pages in order to make paper airplanes are fascists! Teachers that expect their students to pay attention in class: total fascists!

Re:Control the devices

[lennier1]

Correction: above 200

I really shouldn't be configuring routers while I'm posting on /.

Re:Control the devices

[CFBMoo1]

Before my university instituted a software lock down kit and group policies on their Windows machines we had a major problem keeping computers running software wise because students would stick all kinds of junk on lab PCs. Once our plan was put in to effect the devices were used more for what they were intended. The lesson is no different for devices like the iPad if it's school property. Lock it down or deal with the consequences.

Re:Control the devices

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are you still plugged into the matrix?

Re:Control the devices

[Dragon Bait]

How come every I.T. manager turns into a fascist?

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. There's usually a perfectly rationale explanation for fascism which always boils down to "I know better than you do." Ultimately the same reason that most politicians want to tell you how to lead your life.

If I, as the IT guy, am responsible for the network, anti-virus, updates, etc., I don't want you installing an app that may be a new virus attack vector and seek to restrict your ability to add apps. If I'm a socially conservative politician, I don't want you killing your unborn kids and seek to restrict abortion. If I'm a progressive politician, I don't want you killing yourself or your kids with second hand smoke and seek to restrict smoking.

Re:Control the devices

[Anonymous Coward]

i don't see the problem with that they learned some valuable it skills figureing that out :3

Re:Control the devices

[Dr_Barnowl]

Because they can? Absolute power (root / Domain Admin) corrupts absolutely.

On a more sensible note, amateur users cause problems with their computers, and IT aren't given enough resources to deal with that, so they turn into lockdown nazis. Unfortunately, this nullifies the main advantage that a computer has - that it's a tremendous general-purpose tool that can be reconfigured to work in the way that's most efficient and helpful for each user.

The root of the problem is that people don't know enough to get their computer where it needs to be to make it work better for them, without taking one or more fatal missteps along the way. Most of us will have spent many hours, and made our own fatal mistakes, gaining this skill.

Perhaps the answer is to hire people to specifically be "superusers" and help other users in a positive way with their computer, instead of only hiring people who's job it is to react to the negative. Somewhere between a software developer and a normal user.

Re:Control the devices

[Surt]

Agreed on all but the dogs who bark at squirrels. Anyone who has spent time interviewing such dogs about their political ideologies will have discovered the truth of that.

Re:Control the devices

[TheRaven64]

Dogs that bark at squirrels are fascists!

It starts with barking, but the next thing you know the dogs will have the squirrels in death camps and then you won't look so clever...

Re:Control the devices

[theshowmecanuck]

Correct. They are actually socialists which explains their running in packs, groups raising children, sharing food gathering, etc. They are highly idealistic even allowing humans into their packs.

Re:Control the devices

[uniquegeek]

For the same reason we're pessimists - professional experience.

Let a group of kids (especially once they've discovered hormones) get their hands on an iPad, and see how often you're re-imaging those machines. Let them get their hands on a laptop, and see how often you're looking for pieces of keys, or epoxying the case back together.

Re:Control the devices

[wwphx]

We used Deepfreeze in a university computer lab that I worked in, we'd do updates during semester and mini-breaks or as needed. Worked fine until one jerk installed a *nix and the computer would no longer boot Windoze. In another university computer lab the PC's were open and we had all sorts of fun with them. Even though the students didn't have admin access, they still were quite successful at mucking them up.

Re:Control the devices

[theshowmecanuck]

You reminded me about when a couple of us were talking to an instructor in his office which he shared with someone else, a very uptight, very proper female instructor with an old school sense of propriety. This was very shortly after the www/commercial internet came into being. She was searching the web for something personal at lunch when we heard her gasp in horror. You see, she owned purebred great danes and liked to show them. She was searching the web for great danes and show. We turned around to see her frozen in horror at a picture of some chick and her great dane showing everything (for the less subtle, she was letting the great dane fuck her brains out). She (the instructor) couldn't even move for a few seconds just gasping like a fish out of water and finally kept repeating that "it just came up," "it's not my fault," "gabba gabba gabba." When we cracked up she changed the page got all indignant and stormed out of the room. Higher learning indeed.

Re:Control the devices

[ponraul]

So, you are advocating the Lower Lower Merion approach to school IT?

Re:Control the devices

[EdIII]

Appropriate that we are talking about children here.

How come every user turns into a whiny snotty little child every time they can't get their way and walks around stomping their feet with screams of "fascists!"?

Child is appropriate too. It indicates poor decision making skills, naivete, and a lack of sophistication to understand the true dangers.

Child: But.. But.. Why can't I hook up my iPad to the corporate wireless and use it for printing, Internet, and neato stuff like remote desktop!
IT Manager: Well you see sweetie we have a hub and spoke configuration with MPLS back to our datacenter and it's dangerous for unknown equipment to have such access. It could be infected and hurt everyone else and then we would have to shut the playground down for a whole day to fix it.
Child: What's MpeeLSSS's? Are the hubs and spokes like my tinker toys?
IT Manager: No, it is not like your tinker toys. It allows us to connect a whole lot of playgrounds into one big playground.
Child: I don't understand. I want to play with my SHINY!!!
IT Manager: I'm sorry sweetie. It's too dangerous.
Child: I hate you! *sniff*.... fucking fascist!

That's essentially how it goes down. Except for the really unlucky IT Managers and CTO's that have to deal with you Children of the Corn motherfuckers. That would be executives that don't care, read some articles on their plane trips to the executive retreat, and force you to make it happen and if anything bad happens it was because you could not do your job right.

Allegories aside, IT locking down corporate equipment to protect the company is not fascism. That is not to say that IT Managers don't have some character flaws as well. Poor social skills, inability to balance security and usability, and religious support of a single platform (MS fluffers).

However, and this has been brought up in the recent BYOD debates, IT exists for some very simple purposes.

1) To enable other workers to do their jobs by keeping equipment and platforms functioning at optimal levels.
2) To design and implement solutions that allow other workers to perform needed functions efficiently.
3) To protect the assets of the company, including the equipment and corporate data from being misused or falling outside of corporate control where it could cause damage to the company.
4) To minimize any downtime of the other workers through well thought out and balanced strategies for data backup, data integrity, data security, and plans for the implementations of new technologies and replacements of the old.

Now IT cannot do its job without exerting some measure of control over the device to prevent unsophisticated users (or worse those sophisticated enough to be arrogant and dangerous) from causing danger to the company.

BYOD is out of the question. Fundamentally, it cannot be allowed and will never be able to coexist with corporate equipment without allowing an unacceptable level of risk to data security and uptime.

You can scream fascist all you want. At the end of the day, it was never your equipment to begin with. It amazes me how many people on Slashdot don't get that. I understand there are a lot of people represented here that don't have a firm grasp on what security really *is*. The developers that just want it easy, don't want to understand the sysadmin side of things, and have to contend with overbearing IT dictating their tools. Not understanding the difference between personal property and corporate property is astonishing to me.

If it is your equipment, you are fully free to do with it as you like on your own terms. That does not mean you get to bring it into the company and make it part of the corporate ecosystem, make it IT's responsibility, and then tell them they have no control.

If it is corporate equipment that you get to take off premise, then you don't get to install whatever apps you want, connect it to whatever you want, do whatever you want.

It really is not that

Re:Control the devices

[EdIII]

LMFAO.

I knew I was not the only one doing that :)

We disable the data records and prevent them from being counted in reports, processes, etc. 30 day recycle schedule.

A user calls up and tells us they accidentally deleted something and please help!. We just wait 5 or 10 minutes and call them back and tell them it was very difficult but we located it on a drive scheduled for destruction this afternoon. It was really hard to get because the disk was spinning so fast. But we got it and be more careful next time :)

Re:Control the devices

[betterunixthanunix]

Lock them down, you need to assert control over school electronic property

So we are going to condition our students to think that they cannot have control over their computers, and that some higher authority is supposed to be the ultimate arbiter of what is or is not allowed?

Make the kids financially responsible for any physical damage to the computer, and give them detention if their software winds up in such a corrupted state that the IT staff needs to reimage their system. With those simple measures, the kids can be trusted to manage their own systems, because screwing up will result in unpleasantness. The best part is that kids will learn how to repair their computers and not be helpless: when the choice is between detention and learning how to reimage your own hard drive, I think a typical middle or high school student will learn how to reimage their hard drive.

Furthermore, the solution to the kids playing games is to give them a computer that cannot play games -- make it a computer with the wrong software or hardware configuration (e.g. Minix OS/ARM processor). Yes, some kids will figure out how to get popular games to run on such a system...and they should receive high praise for having such aptitude and inventiveness, and should be given the special honor of presentation their technique to their classmates.

Why go for a fascist approach, when you can be constructive and turn computers into a tool that promotes thinking and education?

Re:Control the devices

[budgenator]

Payback for every time you tripped us in the high school cafeteria.

Re:Control the devices

[colinrichardday]

How long have you been writing for InfoWorld?

Re:Control the devices

[colinrichardday]

So we are going to condition our students to think that they cannot have control over their computers,

Their computers? You even quoted the part where the GP siad they were school property.

Re:Control the devices

[bdo19]

Because any competent IT manager realizes that a computer that's locked down yet works consistently for it's intended purpose is clearly better than a computer that's not locked down and is virtually non-functional.

Re:Control the devices

[betterunixthanunix]

Much in the same way that "their" books, "their" desks, and "their" lockers are likely school property. Students generally feel some sense of ownership over school property that has been assigned to them.

Re:Control the devices

[colinrichardday]

Students may feel it, but how much does IT owe them? On the other, school officials may be overbearing enough as it is.

Re:Control the devices

[betterunixthanunix]

What difference does IT's feelings on this make? Students are in school to learn, and IT staff are there to facilitate that. If school officials instruct the IT staff to impose draconian controls over student computers, then the students will grow up thinking that computers are machines controlled by some higher authority. Once those students are all grown up, would you expect them to be opposed to SOPA/PIPA (or more subtly, would you expect a lack of opposition to stem from a logical, reasoned-out argument, or from years spent being taught that computers are controlled by "higher up" authority figures)?

There is also the matter of what to do with those students who find ways to defeat the school's security system. If we accept the premise that the school should be controlling each student's computer, should we also accept the premise that students who take control of their computers should be punished for doing so? Right now, most American schools would do just that: punish students who are smart enough to figure out how to defeat computer security systems. Such students may be a minority, but we do them a disservice by punishing them for exercising their own intelligence.

Re:Control the devices

[colinrichardday]

That might be why I put an "On the other hand . . ." in my response. And what of students who prefer Linux to iOS, or LaTeX to word processors? Or who want more compilers/interprets on what they carry?

I prefer that they be opposed to SOPA/PIPA, but I suspect that's not what Bill Gates wants (he donates to charter schools). Just a hunch.

Re:Control the devices

[Anonymous Coward]

Your problem is that you think schools are actually for learning. Schools are for teaching children how to function in industrial society in a way the government desires. That is, to show up, work in regimented ways for a set period of time, and obey all the rules. To become good little taxpayers and consumers.

No

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no evidence e-learning is beneficial.

Anecdotal evidence has shown me that e-learning is a huge hindrance with anything related to math.

Hinder

[Anonymous Coward]

Technology breaks concentration because it offers a variety of distractions in one small, portable package. There is not much else you can do with paper, pencil, and a Maths textbook than study.

Re:Hinder

[Neil_Brown]

Technology breaks concentration because it offers a variety of distractions in one small, portable package. There is not much else you can do with paper, pencil, and a Maths textbook than study.

Currently in the second year of a distance-learning, Internet-centric, course, I agree entirely about the minimisation of distractions - this is absolutely critical (for me, at least). I don't agree that there's nothing one can do with a paper and pen but study, though - doodling, writing something else, making airplanes / blow darts and so on are all very easily done...

Re:Hinder

[TheRaven64]

There is not much else you can do with paper, pencil, and a Maths textbook than study.

Seriously? If you think that, then I can only assume that you never went to school...

I'm not convinced

[Xugumad]

Others claim to see improved student engagement with technology, and my feeling is that with enough resources you can get an improved experiences. I lean towards the opinion that for now the technology is not good value for money in terms of projects running now. On the other hand, now is a good time to be running small pilot projects in expectation that costs will come down, and software will improve.

Re:I'm not convinced

[ThunderBird89]

You don't even need a lot of resources, you just need to utilize what you have effectively. Electronic aids are highly useful in most subjects, except for the most abstract ones, such as literature. Even in history, you can display a timeline of events, show tactical replays of battles, etc. When it comes to mathematics, the pros shine: projection allows the teacher to present a visual anchors for abstract concepts, such as functions and equations, so students can memorize methods much better.

Re:I'm not convinced

[Xugumad]

Okay, so I'm focusing here on the iPad example given in the story, which is fairly clearly making use of technology they had to buy in...

Also, where does all this content come from? Are there rapid development tools that are suitable for most teachers to make this content with (in which case, please do tell me where!)? If not, are you suggesting an in-house content creation team (not too uncommon), or buying in external content (which is fairly thin on the ground still)?

Re:I'm not convinced

[ThunderBird89]

The Promethean group of programs used for the Promethean Planet whiteboards comes to mind (which also includes tools for collaboration and student polling, that you may or may not use), or even Microsoft PowerPoint. Granted, they won't be a science-fiction movie-style 3D projection, but even such an anchor would be helpful to students.
If the school (district) has money to burn, an in-house team of graphics designers and coders/specialists may come into play too (though I have yet to see that), or they could buy pre-made content like you suggest. But in the first round, teachers would likely have to improvise with PowerPoint or proprietary software for the hardware (Promethean Planet, in my case). Which is a problem in itself: they lack the knowledge and skills to fully utilize the systems, leading to lower impact and efficiency, and less interest in using them. I suspect once a big investment is made, and skilled specialists brought on board, the impact of these systems would rapidly improve as teachers begin to use them...

Home Schooling depends on parents

[Dragon Bait]

I know 6 families that have home schooled with over half the kids now in college (other half still in high school). From my observations, electronics has very little impact or success or failure. Nearly all the success or failure is based on the parents: how serious they are about educating their kids, how connected they are with home school cooperatives, how much time their willing to invest. The complete failures that I've seen were easily predicable before the home schooling began (poorly educated parents, doing it for the wrong reasons, etc.)).

Re:Home Schooling depends on parents

[Wovel]

I agree. However, like the classroom, electronics can aid any competent and motivated instructor.

Re:Home Schooling depends on parents

[zz5555]

All success in schooling (public, private, or home schooled) depends primarily on the parents involvement. I think there was a chapter in the Freakonomics book concerning this.

Re:Home Schooling depends on parents

[Anonymous Coward]

It goes as far as using the mother's highest level of diplomation as the biggest indicator for the child's diplomation chances (specifically the high school diplomation rates, here in Quebec).

We used to play boxes on the grid paper

[nedlohs]

in our math class.

That didn't really say much about whether grid paper and pens were aiding or hindering our education.

It possibly does say something about the quality of the teacher...

Re:We used to play boxes on the grid paper

[artor3]

There are things you can't easily learn without graph paper, and it's dirt cheap. There's nothing that you can't learn without an iPad, and they're expensive.

Re:We used to play boxes on the grid paper

[Anonymous Coward]

So are college text books, for very much the same reasons, actually...

Re:We used to play boxes on the grid paper

[Calydor]

There's nothing that you can't learn without an iPad, and they're expensive.

The value of non-walled gardens, and how to program iPad apps.

Technically you could learn the latter, I suppose, but with no way of actually finding out if you're learning the right thing or misunderstood something.

Re:We used to play boxes on the grid paper

[Anonymous Coward]

....or the student.

Re:We used to play boxes on the grid paper

[nedlohs]

That's a given obviously. But the teacher's job involves getting the students to do the work and they are paid for that - the students on the other hand are required by law to be in the class and aren't being paid to do so.

Of course in that particular case one of the students ended up in the top 1% of the country in their final school exam and got a degree in pure mathematics afterwards, while the other merely ended up middle of the pack in the advanced math course and went on to do IT sysadmin work.

Re:We used to play boxes on the grid paper

[fermion]

When one gives a first grader a pencil and a workbook, without instruction, many of them will just go through all the pages and scribble all over the book. When one gives the AP exam, many free response questions are returned with unrelated drawing and scratches. This tells us two things. One is that all tools must be taught. The other is that unmotivated students must either be motivated or simply allowed to be unproductive.

Most of the time when we talk about new teaching techniques we are really talking about three distinct issues. First, we are talking about how to make teaching cheaper. This often involves giving teachers more students, or lessening the need for highly credentialed teachers. Second we talk about teaching concepts to younger students. For example, Leopold Mozart arguably wrote the book that allowed the teaching of violin to children. Third we talk about motivation, how to teach reluctant students. Much of the current problem with computers in education is the result of the promise that the iPad, just like every other previous technology, is a magic bullet. It is not. It can help with a qualified teacher.

So what does this mean for things like the iPad. First, it is critical that we teach these tools in early grades. Most children are only going to know these tools as a gaming device, so schools must intentionally teach them as productivity tools. A pen, pencil, or paper is not magical. It is simply a tool that allows us to keep track of more things that we can in our head. There is nothing magical about an iPad, it simply allows us store a lot of information and process in a small space. The students who know how to effectively use this tool are simply going to be more productive in school, life, and work. The students who were never taught to use the tools are simply going to be behind everyone else. For example, many of my colloquies in college has never used a mainframe for programming, and spent much time learning what I already knew. Many people my age do not know how to configure a printer to a computer. They end up paying other people to do that work. Everyone I knows how to hook up game console to the TV and play, but really, that does nto help productivity in the least.

ll this leaves then is motivation. Assuming that we teach the use of the iPad, can we convince students to use it productively instead of jut for games. The iPad is new, so using it for not games is a challenge. All new technology is first used for games, as sure as cars are used to race. One way is to shift learning methods from traditional methods to new methods that are consistent with current technology. What Kahn Academy is doing is an intermediate step, but more work will be required. In terms of science, peer reviewed journals have shown that simulations can be an effective teaching tool when running an actual experiment is not practical.

What is left behind in all these discussions is the advance student. Advance technology is critical to the advancement of advance students as such students often require tools to learn that teachers who motivate them to learn.

Re:We used to play boxes on the grid paper

[colinrichardday]

Can you actually program iPad apps on an iPad, or does it require a Mac?

Re:We used to play boxes on the grid paper

[Zaphod The 42nd]

Bingo. Everybody always looks for things to blame as excuses (violent movies, videogames, technology, the internet) when in reality those responsible are the ones failing (teachers, parents). Children NEED a certain amount of attention. You cannot teach without spending time. You cannot teach your child without taking the time to be aware of his/her life. Parents often neglect children in this country, and Teachers are underpaid and often underskilled, or even if they're a good teacher, they have a classroom of 40 students to take care of, so they're too busy wrangling the problem children to focus on actually helping make a difference.

I had a laptop in elementary school (early 90s, it was a pilot program). I played games on it, but I also learned a great deal using it.

I had a graphing calculator in high school. I put zelda and wolfenstein on it and played them in math class all the time when I got bored. It wasn't that I was a bad student, actually I was usually a chapter or two ahead of my calculus class. The graphing calculator wasn't distracting me; its that the class was just simply boring. I wasn't slacking off, but one size fits all teaching required the teacher to move slowly along with the slowest of the class, and I wasn't allowed to press on ahead. So I was forced to sit in a room doing nothing going over things I had a very good understanding of already.

Stop freaking out and stop blaming children, they're children. Stop scapegoating technology, we'll always have more and more technology, get used to it.
Children are complicated. Learning is complicated. Any attempt at a quick-fix is going to have unforseen consequences.

That said, technology in of itself won't do everything either. It isn't the problem or the solution, it is merely a tool to be used.

YES it is, and here's proof

[Praedon]

My sister, when she lived in Ohio, had a learning disability. It wasn't until my family discovered ECOT that she finally had the fighting chance to graduate. They sent her a locked down computer, and gave her all the help and support she needed over the phone for all her lessons. Electronic home-schooling should seriously be considered all over the United States.

Re:YES it is, and here's proof

[morari]

Ohio has always been ahead of the game in terms of online charter schools. I was traditionally homeschooled for the better half of my academic career. My brother went through junior high and highschool using various online solutions. From my understanding, no one was a big fan of ECOT. They provided severely underpowered machines, which were in fact locked down too much. At the time, their bureaucratic setup was confusing and stifled learning. It may have gotten better in the years since, but I can't recommend it based on what I've seen.

Following up on that, my brother also did two years with OHDELA. They had their act together much better than ECOT, but again, issued terrible hardware. This time however, it was a crummy iMac locked down even tighter than the Compaq mini towers ECOT gave out. Furthermore, OHDELA relied far too much on trying to simulate a traditional classroom. Mandatory chatrooms and timed virtual blackboards just got in the way of the original promise of working at your own pace. It may have benefited those that needed the help, but making it compulsory did more to slow my brother's progress than anything.

His final time was spent with an organization called Buckeye Online. They provided a fairly decent laptop computer (completely open!) and relied more on bookwork. This was exactly what my brother had wanted all along. He wasn't chained to a desk or required to participate in some simulated blackboard environment. All he had to do was read the chapter in his text book and then submit the corresponding lesson electronically. He blew through the material and graduated one year earlier than he would have otherwise.

Now again, a lot has probably changed since I watched my family work with these different organizations. Some may be better or worse than they were. Some of the points of contention that my brother had may be the exact thing that your child would prefer. The point is to study up on them before just blindly signing up. Most of them do offer seminars leading up to the traditional start of the school year. Go and listen, ask questions, discuss your concerns. It has been my experience that you'll usually have the ear of some of the more important people within the organization.

So can students be home-schooled electronically? Absolutely. I would say that the benefits far outweigh any negatives. Most of the perceived problems that people have with homeschooling can be quickly and easily remedied if you're not a lazy parent. Having an online support system, as provided by these institutions, definitely makes things easier. It's still not something you can just throw and your child and expect to happen. It's a framework for the parents to work within, to help out, to expand upon, and to monitor. Of course, any parent who takes their job seriously would be doing that anyway, even if their child went to a physical school.

Re:YES it is, and here's proof

[Praedon]

That was a very insightful reply. ECOT in the beginning, from what we heard before my sister came in, was really in shambles. By the time my sister started though, it was her answer to dealing with bullies, lack of public education attention, and she could work on things at her pace. Every once in awhile, she did have some issues getting a hold of teachers, but they were bombarded for the longest time. She was really proud of herself, for being able to accomplish her work using ECOT though, and it really improved her self-esteem.

I do agree though, that it could be very situational to the child. ECOT worked for her, whereas it may not of, for your brother. I just wish I could of had ECOT when I was that age. I always found public education to be the most boring waste of time in the world. Never challenged, horrible environments, and hated all my peers.

Dreadful idea

[cohomology]

The kids who need help often have chaotic home environments. They need role models, not electronics. There is no technical fix.

Re:Dreadful idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not stick them in boarding schools? That's a technical fix for a bad home environment. Sure it's expensive, but it's an investment in people, and maybe that's exactly the sort of investment that states should be making.

Absurd

[pijokela]

Judging by my kids, the idea of home learning is absurd. Or at least it will require one parent to constantly supervise the home learning. Kids lack discipline and tenacity, they only learn those after growing up. So, if we are going to teach them boring stuff while they are growing, they need an environment that helps them focus on the matter at hand. I-products do not.

I actually find it quite interesting how many different schools around the world try something like this. Wonder if any of these projects are working out well. From what I've heard from teachers, even though kids nowadays know a lot about computers, it's all gaming and entertainment. They might not even know how to write a letter with their computer.

Re:Absurd

[iamacat]

Homework/learning is absurd, therefore I am planning on sending our older daughter to a private school with 3-6 "homework club". By the time me and my kids are both home and have eaten dinner, it's 7pm. They need to go to sleep at around 9. We all need a break from work/study and general time together for at least two frigging hours per day. I am not surprised that kids fail in the environment where teachers are not able to educate them during 9 hours of school and after care.

Re:Absurd

[immaterial]

Even that three hours of "homework club" is an absurdity. Your child would likely benefit far more from using those remaining daylight hours to socialize, run around outside, and have an opportunity explore her own interests. See Alfie Kohn's "The Homework Myth" for a very well-cited exploration of the research and a discussion of why the vast majority of homework is totally without merit.

Re:Absurd

[uniquegeek]

The teachers buy into the shiny packaging of the iPad becuase of its marketing. Teachers don't make content, the school has no budget for developers to make content, so they use the iPad to play cutesy little games on the Internet. Some of these are educational, some are not. Most of them are infested with adware of spyware (which even the teachers don't understand). Some of the external content is decent, but you have to do some research. It, too, is not without its flaws (wants a certain browser, certain versions of flash...) I work in IT at a school.

My sister-in-law is a teacher, they don't have iPads yet. She gets essays with "LOL" in them. Thankfully, she's a teacher who will go toe-to-toe with a principal to fight to fail a kid in school (they still won't let her, but that's another issue).

I spend more time than I'd like dealing with panicked teachers for gathering "evidence" from Google chat sessions or Facebook.

That being said, we do have the Adobe Creative Suite, and some of the kids do some really neat stuff. I do wonder about "the three r's", though.

Re:Absurd

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm... home learning is absurd?! Yeah all those almost 3 million kids in the U.S. aren't learning at home. No they don't score in high 80% on standardized testing.

What is ridiculous is we accept forcing children into "schools" against their will. Then expect they learn obsolete and inefficient curricula. I never get how the problem is always with the kids. Seriously?! Only about 2/3rds of kids in the U.S. graduate high school and about 2/3rds are functionally literate.

We homeschool and have I-devices etc, we have kids willing going to educational resources. My 2 YO knows the alphabet, counting to 20 and she knows how to read some words. My 5 YO can read most things. They mostly taught themselves using starfall and other resources. The idea that someone has to stand over and constantly supervise is probably why kids hate school and then learning.

It Can Work Well for Adult Education

[DERoss]

My daughter has a master's degree in education. Her master's project studied distance learning for adults over the Internet. She found that Web-based courses can indeed be effective. HOWEVER, she also found that such courses are far more effective if the students and instructor meet face-to-face as a group about once each month.

Distance learning can be very important for adults. For example, in some areas, doctors are required to pursue ongoing education in order to retain their licenses. For a doctor in a rural area where he or she is the only health provider, leaving the community to take a two-week course would mean that the community is left without any doctor.

Distraction is the new education

[AndronicusRhodos]

Content consumption of widgets, and assorted eye candy along with advertising is the new education practice that teaches us the most important lesson of the 21rst century. How to consume content. Just sayin.

Well..

[Wovel]

The answer to your questions is yes it is a viable option in the classroom and for home schoolers. Your wife apparently is in need of in service training on classroom management. She is doing her students a disservice. They are all suffering because she does not have control of the class room.

Technology is an excellent tools in the hands of any competent teacher.

Wrong tool.

[ieatcookies]

Giving a young student a device they can play games will result in young students playing games. The ipad seems like the wrong tool for the job with young students. Also, taking notes on a iPad???

Re:Wrong tool.

[TheRaven64]

Can you think of any device a young student can't play games on? If so, you may be so old that you've forgotten what it was like to be a child. We could play games on anything...

Re:Wrong tool.

[uniquegeek]

Simple and correct. The iPad is a consumer device in more than one respect - it's suitable for a home environment that consumes. The point of school is to experiment with producing.

To be a student.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the knowledge itself that's useful, but learning how to apply the knowledge.

However, there are always keys needed in order to unlock more knowledge, and before you have a key you can't evolve and open the door to more knowledge. And a computer is merely a telescope through you can find the doors.

School is learning to learn, not a fact accumulation process.

However many teachers fails to have that insight and just feeds the students with information that has to be sorted out by the students.

Implementation, implementation, implementation

[The Stranger]

The problem with many (maybe most?) attempts to put technology in schools and even home learning environments is that people don't think through the implementation. Technology is not magic. You cannot expect to get good results simply by dropping a chunk of technology into a classroom without spending a lot of time and energy rethinking how teaching and learning is going to work in that classroom. For example:

What, exactly, is the technology going to be used for? No hand-waving general answers allowed here (e.g., "enrich content with interactive multimedia presentations" is a useless answer).
In what specific tasks will the technology allow you to do something that would have been cumbersome or impossible without it (e.g., using graphing or numerical methods to approximate solutions to equations that are not amenable to the usual algebraic techniques)?
What more interesting or more engaging problems can you now attempt to solve (that address your learning goals) that you would not have been able to attempt without the technology?
Will you want to change or expand your set of learning goals now that you have this piece of technology? If so, how?
How much instructional time will be needed to get the teacher and students working comfortably with the technology? Is the potential benefit worth that amount of time?
How do you implement the technology in ways that do not detract from the learning you are trying to do (i.e., what are the unintended consequences)? How might you plan ahead for negative unintended uses?

Almost every case I've ever seen or read about where technology was just dropped into an educational setting without painstaking planning and thought about curriculum and implementation, not to mention extensive training of teachers and staff, resulted in mixed results at best, and failure and rejection at worst. To answer the original questions directly, technology aids can help or hinder education- it's all in the amount of time, thought, sweat and tears that get put into the implementation. I won't comment more on the home schooling part of the question, as I really have no experience there (aside from supplementing my own kids' educations).

Re:Implementation, implementation, implementation

[james_van]

if i had mod points, i would mod you up. i couldnt have said it better myself. i spent some time working for a company that sold educational supplies and was part of the product development group. i was amazed when i first started at how much hardware was available to teachers, but how little software there was. and most teachers didnt have a clue how to effectively use what they had. we spent more time helping teachers develop processes and effective ways to use the technology then we did developing software. it really was sad, i would go into a classroom and ask the teacher what they used their whiteboard for, or how they used technology in teaching and usually it amounted to showing power point. occasionally a teacher would show us something a little interactive (usually a science teacher), but most of it was very basic. worse yet, my boss had these grand ideas of turning the classroom into an "educational arcade" and thought that we needed to produce nothing but games. so it was an uphill battle from multiple sides. it wasn't until we developed some interactive textbooks and showed a few teachers how to use them that we got any decent results. really, the more we studied the situation, the more we found that the average teacher needs nothing more than a projector for some powerpoint, and (for the slightly more advanced ones) a "blackboard" style homework/assignment tracking system.

Re:Implementation, implementation, implementation

[thephydes]

As a teacher I cannot agree with you more. Simply dumping technology into the classroom is worse than useless. Who tries to pick up the pieces and then gives up? The teacher! Who gets blamed for the "project" not working? The teacher! Who is given no training? The teacher! This is typical of most of the educational "innovations" that I have seen in 31 years. Show me a computer program that can teach Calculus/Trigonometry/Matrices better than I can and I'll resign tomorrow. Having said that I recommend Khan to my students because they can get another look and rewind as many times as they need to AT HOME with the support of their parents.

WhyTF would you want this in a classroom?

[Anonymous Coward]

I just finished the ai class. And the db class. And the ml class. That's "e-learning", right? Involved an old box booted off usb with just enough linux to run opera and flash for the videos, and (for ml class) octave. And an editor to take notes. Did that at home, on a different continent than stanford is on.

Why you'd want to give kids ipads and expect them not to take full advantage of it is a bit beyond me. What's wrong with books? You're in a classroom setting, everybody is there already. No need to go all "e". In fact, that schooling approach with "no computers!" is quite popular in silly valley. And I can see why.

The thing is not to focus on the technology. It's an enabler, but so is a nearby teacher, so are places to sit and learn, so are books, so is pen and paper. Focus on teaching the kids stuff, already. All the rest is gravy.

game-based learning

[azzy]

If gaming is the distraction, perhaps the better way to hook the kids would be through game-based learning - see http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=155852

E-learning is still learning

[rbowen]

I am perplexed by equating "e-learning" with "give every kid an iPad". If you give a kid a screen and make it under their control they will find the games. If someone is unaware of this, they probably dont have kids. But this is not unique to electronics. If you give them a stack of text books and no supervision, they'll make paper airplanes. Education requires supervision at that age. Putting an e- in front of things doesn't change human nature.

Re:E-learning is still learning

[dianelizabeth]

If gaming is the natural conclusion of giving kids these kinds of resources, then why not teach through games? There's a lot of material suggesting that games could be used in that way and be even more engaging than traditional learning tools. Gabe Zichermann touches on this point starting at 7:38 http://www.ted.com/talks/gabe_zichermann_how_games_make_kids_smarter.html Like he says, "not just are the kids going to be alright. Frankly, the kids are going to be awesome."

Re:E-learning is still learning

[sandytaru]

Some of the early educational games from the 80s were fantastic. I learned how to differentiate between "their, there, and they're" partly because of the game Word Munchers back on Windows 3.x and early Macs.

Re:E-learning is still learning

[Anonymous Coward]

I am perplexed by equating "e-learning" with "give every kid an iPad". If you give a kid a screen and make it under their control they will find the games. If someone is unaware of this, they probably dont have kids. But this is not unique to electronics. If you give them a stack of text books and no supervision, they'll make paper airplanes. Education requires supervision at that age. Putting an e- in front of things doesn't change human nature.

This.

It wasn't until I was in high school that assignments I turned in stopped having drawings all over the margins.

School is boring -- if you're intelligent, it's not stimulating; if you're not intelligent, its a distraction. I have a very difficult time recalling a single thing I learned *in* school before upper division college courses -- everything I learned came either from my parents or from the huge number of encyclopedias/reference books/etc they had in the house. Eventually school would start covering those same topics, but by then I had moved on to other things.

The whole of mass-producing education in 1-year "batches" is so antiquated and ineffective, it boggles my mind. Until we alter our fundamental approach to education, all the iPads, student-teacher-ratios, etc., aren't going to make a jot of difference.

Re:E-learning is still learning

[Anonymous Coward]

Putting an e- in front of things doesn't change human nature.

I agree, very well summarised.

Automatic notetaking is nice

[rsilvergun]

Especially since kids don't get textbooks anymore (thanks to Republican backed funding cuts). My kid often comes home with homework that I have no idea how to help with, because there's a particular answer / way of doing it they're using. More than once I've had my kid doing twice as much work solving a math problem because we did more than what the teacher wanted. With the white boards I started getting the teacher's notes, so I can see what the heck they actually want.

So yeah, in a properly funded school electronic whiteboards aren't needed. But in today's run down hell holes that we pass off as schools they're a life saver.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[Anonymous Coward]

"Especially since kids don't get textbooks anymore (thanks to Republican backed funding cuts)"

Tiresome.

Get the government and unions out of education, and watch achievement return to what it was in the '50s and '60s.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[Anonymous Coward]

Couldn't resist throwing in some unsubstantiated, politically motivated BS in there, eh?

I'm going to go with, eBay those iPads at $600/ea and buy all the books these kids could ever want.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[Anonymous Coward]

snicker snicker

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[NEDHead]

Actually, one could make a case that public education started its downward spiral as a result of the Women's Liberation movement. Not blaming, just saying that the system was built on bright capable women working at low wages in a field where their participation was acceptable. When the best and brightest noticed the greener pastures, and the system did not compensate by offering competitive wages and status, well, you see what we got.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in a school district in a red state. All the kids have textbooks. Quit spreading incorrect information to further your political ends.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[ponraul]

Why don't you buy your kid textbooks then? If your kid was going to a private school, the purchase of textbooks is not included in tuition and generally required.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[pspahn]

(thanks to Republican backed funding cuts)

Maybe they got tired of paying ridiculous prices to Democrat backed textbook publishers?

Shit slings both ways.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[jellomizer]

If you are going political. Why are those liberal educators wasting money on digital boards when the kids needs text books?
Because they don't want the republicans to be right. So when they say we are spending too much money and it isn't effective so we will cut your budget. The school then in turn spends what they have on the wrong stuff at the expense of the kids education, just to show the public how evil those republicans are.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[modmans2ndcoming]

is that a joke?

Huge government investment in education in the 50's and 60's is what gave us the high achievement we experienced at that point in time.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[modmans2ndcoming]

like those damn publishers who are putting creationism into science text books.... those Democrat backed publishers? Shit only slings both ways when there are two ways to sling it.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[Stormthirst]

Unlikely, otherwise we'd see Republican backed textbooks instead, reasonably priced or otherwise

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[wrencherd]

. . . watch achievement return to what it was in the '50s and '60s.

What evidence do you have of high achievement during those decades?

I'm not being argumentative, I am just interested in what evidence there might be towards proving that point.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[jbengt]

Get the government and unions out of education, and watch achievement return to what it was in the '50s and '60s.

First, government was just as involved, if not more so, in education in the 50s and 60s as it is now, and unions were prominent in education during that time (at least in Chicago, of which I'm most familiar with in the 60s)
Second, if you were aware of reporting about education in the popular press in the 50s and 60s, and even the 30s and 40s, you would be aware there have always been alarming stories about how bad public education is and how it's going downhill.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[wmelnick]

Ah I get it - that's the joke! Government investment helping education. LOL!

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[datavirtue]

Kids don't want books. I've heard "I hate reading" more times than I can count at the college this year alone.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[Anonymous Coward]

The demise of education in America began when it was federalized in ~1974, when they formed the department of education. like most government agencies they kill that which is good.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of the textbooks where I was teaching were printed in Texas by companies that are subsidiaries of larger Conservative corporations and in many cases are run by members of the Bush Family... those damn liberals!

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[spiffmastercow]

As a non-education government employee, I can tell you that public employees generally do not take politics into consideration when it comes to the budget. If you're wondering why we tend to vote Democrat, it's largely because it's the party that doesn't slash our budget without taking the time time to figure out what we actually do. Believe it or not, we feel pride in serving the public, even if a large portion of the public (i.e. teabaggers) doesn't appreciate it.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[modmans2ndcoming]

Considering the fact that government investment is EXACTLY what helped propel the US passed teh Russians in education in the 50's and 60's, I think you need to reevaluate your position.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[lsatenstein]

Your comments make no logic. I can tell you that taking your example to extreme, there should be no song writers, or painters or skulpturers, or musicans in orchestras as their remuneration is way to low and sometimes negative.

A teacher in our school systems needs a bachelors degree (arts or science) and a teaching diploma/certificate. That means 4 years of university and as well, training on how to teach individuals of differing ages.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[Sarius64]

No, actually I think they mean the asshole Democratic controlled California Teachers Association that forces students to buy union-back new editions of college text books each year with a chapter change for an easy $200 per book. Seriously, WTF does Spanish need a different college text each year?

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[ahodgson]

School teachers here make way more than an average salary and public education isn't all that hot, either. Although way better than most of the US.

Public education went downhill because parents don't care about their kids education. They show up with no breakfast and a terrible attitude. Half of them are on behaviour-modification drugs. A good portion of them have brain damage from their mothers drinking or doing drugs during pregnancy. It only takes a few of those in any classroom to make teaching a full-time babysitting job, at which point no one else learns anything, either.

I'm not a fan of teachers or teacher's unions, but you put a roomful of hard-working Korean kids in almost any of those classrooms and they'd do just fine. The problem isn't the schools.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[ahodgson]

The publishers do it. The teachers require new editions because students can't buy the old ones and they can't realistically teach to 10 different versions.

There's a really good argument to be made for open-source textbooks and e-readers, at least for subjects that don't change much.

Re:Automatic notetaking is nice

[modmans2ndcoming]

If I was a math professor, I would go online, find one of those wonderful 10 dollar Classics text books that are in paper back and use those. Unless you are teaching something that happened in the last 20 years, the stuff published in the 50's and 60's or earlier will suffice....it would actually force the students to think more since modern text books are like baby books compared to those damned books from the middle of last century.

The Military's Demonstrated Failure

[Anonymous Coward]

The US Military has demonstrated the failure of electronic learning, and continues to pour millions of dollars into it. There are really only 2 things relevant to teaching; the students, and details. I click through 200 sylabus hours of CBT's a year, and learn damn near nothing from them. Being uninterested in human trafficing, that CBT went as fast as I could click. The annoying ones make you "listen" to each video segment. They get muted and backgrounded and take twice as long as scheduled because I forget to click the next button while doing somethign else mind-numbing. Fortunately, the DOD ones require good accessibility, so almost all of the course material (for ones with non-obvious tests) is available in PDF so you can search and click.

That being said, my 4 year old is obsessed with books and has pretty much taught herself to read with starfall.com. It's all about the students. Your wife's experience with computers in the classroom is like mine. They're absolutely useless. She taught calculus and honors algebra, and found taht the computers were a net negative because they were an authorized distraction to the students who didn't want to learn. Fortuantely, she quit teaching before she became bitter and jaded. There are a few people who have done well with the ECOT system, but that's not a strength of ECOT, it's a weakness of our public schools and a testament to parents of kids (who in my limited experience are all have a spectrum disorder). However, there's nothing magic about a computer.

My cynical opinion is that we should accept that there are motivated kids and useless kids, and give the motivated kids a good education and not let the rest of them prevent our good students from getting an education. And yes, that's all about parenting, but will never fly in the US, because it will discriminate horribly. Given the state of our education system and it's interaction with society, though, the only chance is that, forced sterilization, or punishing parents for not caring (instead of paying them per kid)

Re:The Military's Demonstrated Failure

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm with you (USAF). CBTs in our shop have to be completed annually. After going through them the first time, no one actually bothers to read them. They just click through them as quickly as possible, print the certificate, and get on with life. They are a complete joke. Oh, and many of them have audio components, and none of our computers have speakers on them.

I would say no

[koan]

Unless it's a locked down device because too many distractions exist on a standard platform, however the real measure of how effective this sort of teaching is is how the students fair later on down the education road and how they compete in the work place against the rest of the World.

It's really too early to tell.

Depends

[bleedingsamurai]

I think the current state of technology in the classroom is: "lets just throw money at it" instead of figuring out what is really out there. If there was more thought and planing and effort put into it by the schools it would be great, perhaps even better then a traditional classroom. At college I usually take a couple on line classes each semester, and they take advantage of the medium. It isn't just "here, read this and do 1-20 for homework" there is embedded content and interactive assignments that would just be cumbersome or not possible in a traditional classroom. Where I work, we do tech support for K-12 and districts just blow money on iPads and smartboards and other du-dads, some of the teachers don't even have room in their curriculum for this stuff. And the iPad thing is really stupid, they spend 600 dollars on the thing, then another 80 on a keyboard and mouse with a case that props the iPad up...buy a laptop, for less money and more functionality. Again, if there was more thought put behind the purchases, it would make things so much better.

Works but not yet a panacea

[EmperorOfCanada]

Oddly enough if you hand out a device that happens to be an excellent toy to a bunch of kids things won't go as well as you might expect. Yet I have a simple solution. Move your desk to the back of the classroom. Unless your educational software looks like angry birds one glance will tell you if little Johnny is screwing around.

I am the creator of Learn French by LessonStudio (shameless self promotion) which is a singleminded app that teaches basic French vocabulary and Grammar;. It follows some pretty basic modern educational science and personally I believe works rather well. Handed out to a class of kids they could probably absorb some French pretty quickly as compared to an equivalent textbook. But again I wouldn't hand the app out to the kids and leave them to their own devices(ha ha).

At the same time I don't think that there is any complete end to end teaching system out there. Moodle is a mess for teaching. It does what it does well but it certainly is far far away from being some replacement for teachers. It is really only for administering a classroom. But great administration does nothing to improve the teacher. I pick on Moodle but all the systems that I have seen are aimed squarely at the bureaucrats that run the schools with only a nod to actual improvements in teaching. So based on the state of the art right now if I were a teacher I would not look for something where I could go home but a series of tools that enhance individual lessons.

Paperweights?

[vlm]

I'm related to a couple elementary school teachers and there are some universal problem with i-devices:

They come out of fed-grant or state-grant or capital budget to get the physical boxes. If you're extremely lucky you Might get grant / capital funds to buy tough cases and/or charging cradles. The kids will eventually destroy the charging cables by shoving them in upside down. Spend the money now, or later, your choice. The political types get more "points" by a press release that you have purchased 100 devices, than you have purchased 50 devices and all the wasteful accessories which are the only thing that make them useful, so you're not getting cradles or tough cases or spare charger cables. So soon you won't be using them at all.

Then you have no wifi inet access in the classroom. If you had wifi inet access the kids would spend most of their time surfing around aimlessly, even theoretically the "cool" ed sites like starfall are or at least were flash-based only, or they want a subscription, for which of course you have no money. You could probably afford website subscriptions if you didn't buy ipads, that is how the suppliers set their supply/demand curves. So you probably won't be doing "internet" stuff with the ipads.

Assuming you shake the parents down for itunes gift cards like you shake them down for other school supplies at the start of the year, you still have to find a freaking app. There are like 75 cruddy rote addition apps, then half that for subtraction, then half that for multiplication, pretty soon to do anything specific you end up with nothing. So you either have dozens of shovelware, or nothing at all. The teachers grapevine helps a little for the stuff in between, but pretty much there's nothing out there. Then you get to fight the local IT people about software installation onto school property, or cave into them and wait six months for them to hire an intern to enter the gift cards and do it on ITMS for you, to "save your valuable teacher time". Meanwhile the ipads sit in the box.

The final killer, in all honesty, at elementary levels, you'd like to think the kids spend three hours a day doing calculus but realistically the majority of the school day has no purpose for an ipad. Could you use an ipad for 30 minutes one time using an electronic instrument synth app? Yeah. Once. For 30 minutes in music class. The rest of music class is spent singing and learning about other physical music instruments. Not sure what you'll be axing from the district mandated curriculum to fit the ipad in.. All that is not compulsory is forbidden and all that is not forbidden is compulsory is the motto no a days. Ditto gym class, art class.

The academic classes have strict no child left behind curriculums decided mostly at the district level. In this district on day #34 we will watch Bill Nye Volcano episode and discuss. Where does the ipad fit into the district curriculum that is only updated every decade or so? It doesn't. In 10 years, instead of the curriculum containing mandatory 20 year old VCR videos, it'll contain mandatory 20 year old technology requirements (so you must run Oregon Trail on a genuine original Apple II to meet our NCLB goals...). The 20 year old tech at that time, is currently 10 years old, so in about 10 years you can expect intense demand for Palm Pilot III models on ebay, sony clie era palm pilot clones, etc.

So... paperweights?

Re:Paperweights?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is so funny you talk about oregon trail on apple ii systems. I actually have that at our school. When I came in a couple years ago, I dumped the emacs and brought in 3ghz imacs and dual quad core i7's this year. But we still have teachers who claim they HAVE to have the apple iie in their classroom for oregon trail to work with their sped students. I actually blame teachers and parents for the failures of students in the districts I have managed as tech dir.

  Teachers who are light speed fast to shove kids onto lab systems to give them busy work and provide the teacher quiet time so they can work on their masters degree and get a lane change in pay on the taxpayers dime and parents who are so inept that they cant be expected to help their kids at all with their home work.

    We see parents of failing kids going into and out of the bars and liqueur stores and vfw's, legions, moose clubs, etc... when they could be helping their kids. They then whine when their kids dont make the grade and we have to bit our tounges when the parent actually asks "why isnt my kid making it?"

Ipads and such are pushed for by a lot of teachers because it is just another way they can get away with not teaching. At our district, we could fire 3/4 of the staff and the tech crew could provide the same level of teaching since we are the ones asked for help and instruction on everything that involves a computer screen anyway.

I blame the commercials from the 80's that expressed how important teachers are to the future. Many of our teaching staff expect everything given to them. When they dont get $$$ for extra supplies they make up for it by acting passive aggressive and sending their kids to the library or dumping them on a lab worker and they sit in their rooms watching tv, or working on their masters, or having a prelunch lunch, etc...

Great for distance learning ... mostly

[Neil_Brown]

I can only speak for myself, but I am enrolled on a distance-learning taught masters degree, which is taught solely over the Internet, and, on the whole, it has been a great experience.

Without physical classes, I've been able to study whenever I have wanted - the term has a structure, with deadlines to be met, but, around those, I can work during times which suit me. Lectures are delivered in the form of podcasts, in 30 minute slots. These I tend to listen to when I am driving or ironing - sufficient to get the gist of the topic. I avoid taking notes, since I just want to soak up what is being said.

The text book is delivered as a Word document, but quickly and easily converted to .pdf; other reading comes in whatever form in which it was originally provided (could be a link to a web page, or a .pdf download and so on) - again, all easily converted to pdf. These I read on my iPad (in iAnnotate) and mark them up accordingly; all synchronised back to my computers, to become searchable when it comes to thinking, and writing essays.

Essays are written - unsurprisingly - on a computer, and are submitted electronically; I tend to use .pdf, but I am not sure what others use. These are all run through TurnItIn software - I'm undecided whether I think that this is a good practice or not, but, since I have no say in the matter (short of quitting the course), I can live with it.

On the whole, a very positive experience indeed - I've studied on trains, planes as well as sitting at home, and have written essays in four different countries. The flexibility is great.

There are some downsides, though - particularly around student camaraderie and discussion. Despite there being some great tools available, I don't feel that we've quite cracked the discussion / debate side of things yet. I've chatted with some of the students around the world via Skype, which has been very interesting, but, having encouraged mailing lists, real-time text chat, and now blog posts / responses and (*shudder*) a Facebook wall, nothing seems to have attracted critical mass which, for me, is a real shame - I value the ability to discuss and debate very highly, and I don't feel we've got this quite right yet.

(It may, of course, be that few of the students actually want to discuss, and the distance-learning nature means that people can studying without feeling a pressure to discuss - if this is the case, the course is probably suiting them very well, and I could indeed see the value of this form of study for those who do not want to be in a classroom environment, or required to make conversation. Personally, I think that discussing and critiquing of ideas amongst peers is very valuable, but I appreciate that others may think differently.)

On the whole, though, it works very well for me - I find it easy to be motivated to study something I enjoy, in an environment which suits me.

Re:Great for distance learning ... mostly

[Hognoxious]

You're an adult, doing the course because you want to. TFA is about kids, most of whom would be rather doing something else.

Re:Great for distance learning ... mostly

[Neil_Brown]

You're an adult, doing the course because you want to. TFA is about kids, most of whom would be rather doing something else.

Absolutely - I was thinking of the general question (whether eLearning is a viable option) rather than the specific situation in the article, but I fully agree that *wanting* to learn / study makes one heck of a difference, irrespective of technology.

Re:Great for distance learning ... mostly

[wallydallas]

Neil, Thanks for the amazing personal story. You're in a masters program, and you travel to 4 countries. You're from a privileged class and this post was about k-8 schools, Where 1 in 5 kids live in poverty, and most classrooms are getting more crowded. Neil, like you I took hybrid and web only classes where most students printed out the PDF readings. I put them into google docs. I can search, and I wish I could highlight the PDF and annotate in docs. My master's research is focused on this topic: Is technology in education a form of salvation or sedation. I invite people to join me in editing something I'm throwing together today. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1umIJ_XanBrF4PAvPiB6EGGCBQ1Jxilsy3MzrXnQvr8I/edit?authkey=CKGo06sE

Re:Great for distance learning ... mostly

[Neil_Brown]

You're in a masters program, and you travel to 4 countries. You're from a privileged class

I'm definitely aware of this - I am very thankful for where I was born (England), and to whom.

this post was about k-8 schools,

Although I'm not actually sure what a k-8 school is, I did know that I was responding based on a very different situation - for me, I study because I want to do so (I enjoy it), and am fortunate to have the spare time to be able to commit to it, as well as to be able to pay the costs of the program. As another poster highlighted above, my circumstances are very different to those in the original post; I'm in no position to help on that point, but I can feed it to a wider discussing on distance learning.

I invite people to join me in editing something I'm throwing together today

I try to minimise my logged-in use of Google, but I've downloaded the file, and will take a look. Are you the first named author on the paper currently?

If I had a hammer

[Anonymous Coward]

If the school gave all the children hammers, I suspect that in all the other classes beside shop, kids would be hammering their desks and each other and the teachers would ban hammers in their classes. A hammer is just a tool, it doesn't lead to learning unless it is applied to a skill.

A Crutch or a useful tool?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have some experience in this area.
I tell parents only allow computers where it will really aid their child. If its being used as a crutch to get them over something they are deficient in such as writing spelling or math, Then its not being used properly.
Computers and related devices are wonderful tools. In the education field the can really help or hinder depending on how they are implemented.

Locking them down is one option, but kids always find a way around this. I find the best way is just not to make available, Don't allow the kids to take them home, set up a centralized server to store the information and turn the tablets into dumb terminals. Each day before the kids leave for the day collect all the tablets, dump any information into the kids account then wipe and reload them. Redistribute them when they comb back to school.
Now this may limit What teachers can set for homework. But this is probably a good thing.

The Cold, Hard Truth

[InfiniteZero]

Well, here is the cold, hard truth: Learning is HARD. Period.

Some kids, for one reason or another, are more interested and motivated in learning than others, but they are a small minority. (Nerds are among them, but that's another story.) Even so, they are mostly only interested in learning a subset of the subjects offered as the general education. Most other kids couldn't care less and are in school only because they have to.

Electronic gadgets are not going to help much. Short of the invention of a knowledge serum (e.g., a shot for advanced physics, another for Greek history), or a Matrix-style interface, there is no easy way out.

it already works

[emilper]

e-learning works, it's the brick and mortar schools that became babysitter replacements and they won't perform better no matter how much "e-" you add in front of it.

Would it be e-learning if the textbooks and practice quizzes would be distributed in an electronic format ? Would it be still e-learning if the reference materials would be available in an electronic format ? Would it be e-learning if the teachers would use Skype/YM/GTalk/forums to interact with the students after classes ? I guess it would, but then the "e-learning" solution providers would gain less.

The best e-learning tool is wikipedia. It's not perfect, or accurate or neutral, but in itself is a learning tool and the schools are stupid not to embrace it.

Wise technology

[minstrelmike]

Using technology correctly shows improvement. Well-written learning games are immensely useful on game devices.
Taking notes on paper as opposed to electronics is just as useful/useless either way. It depends on the teaching itself.
The other aspect of e-learning is the distance stuff. Folks learn a lot better in interactive groups and anything that diminishes the interactivity diminishes the learning.
This principle doesn't mean e-devices are bad, just that they need to be implemented properly.

Aristotle thought reading would spell the death of civilization (because students weren't memorizing poems the way Ari did as a child).

As a parent with a kind who got a school laptop:

[eagee]

It's a tremendously stupid waste of resources. If you want kids to learn about technology give them a crappy low power device (like a Pentium 1 equivalent) running a low end unix variant. This way, you can give them access to wifi, but the laptop can't do a heck of a lot more than check email and slowly load simple articles. The Internet at large combined with modern distractions is too enticing when you're supposed to be learning geometry. While there are myriad distractions in any learning environment, they'll at least have to learn something to get to 'em.

Heck, the whole reason I learned to program is because I only had access to an older computer no one was writing software for anymore.

Amusing how many oppose technology for education

[youn]

this is slashdot... a good 99.3% of you were geeks as kids and it got you to where you were. chances are you learned complex technology despite the fact most people around you sucked at it (sometimes even teachers) and often tried to distract you or discourage you from these endeavours... willpower kicks ass when you are motivated and technology is a knowledge enablers.

Technology can be helpful but you have to teach the children boundaries and focus them - and this is as much a responsability of the teacher and the students. Yes, technology can be a distraction, so can a bee be one too. Students are easily distracted.. at all ages.

Even playing can be a learning experience... it can be argued some people get paid to play games they played as a kid under different settings (sports, singing, ...)

Don't blame the distraction, blame the distractee (the student) and the distractor (the teacher failing to focus the attention of its student)

Yes, but not for kids

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, adults benefit greatly from E-learning overall. Whether it is doing courses through Open-University, Khan Academy, or even just learning through the sources of Wikipedia articles at random.

Kids, however...
Most kids will tend to want to play games, go to Facebook or whatever else.
If you lock these things down, then they might get some more work done.
If you lock the places wi-fi down, more if you have no control over the devices in question.
And to be honest, this is equally a fault of the system itself rather than the fact that games exist.

Education "should be fun", not boring. Coursework should make you excited to work with it, should make you genuinely interested in learning.
Education shouldn't be "here, go to page 12, this is how you do this, practice it on the next 10 pages with slight variations, you have till half-past to finish."
My school took the former approach after years of "the standard" and actually engaged students, our year helped them get after-school clubs setup which actually really worked well, there was a remarkable turn-up for Maths, Computing, Art, English and many others.
Then sadly had to close due to huge structural damage, pipes on their last legs and asbestos. (I still think it is a conspiracy to keep people a certain level of stupid)

Elementary School?

[gallen1234]

I would be very reluctant to use almost any kind of technology at the elementary school level. In my experience, computers are a great tool for expressing your imagination but they're not so great for helping to develop one which is what students should be doing at that age.

Bad Experiment leads to Expected Results?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure that the experiment in the original question (or the question itself) makes a lot of sense. How is giving all the students an iPad an "experience in e-Learning"? If the base assumption was just "give them tablets, and they'll use them for note-taking and stuff...", that's just idiotic. That's not "e-Learning" at all. It sounds like the teacher in this case didn't by any means adapt her teaching methods or course content to use the tool effectively; is it any surprise that it failed? (Though, in fairness, this is likely a failure of the school district for implementing such a poorly-conceived plan without adequately preparing and equipping the teachers to succeed.)

Technology itself is neither the problem nor the solution, but it can be part of a solution if you know what you're trying to accomplish and have a way of measuring success. Homeschooling is the same; technology makes learning more accessible outside of the traditional classroom (both through access to information, and through tools to help present, explain, and interact with that information), but it's not just going to magically happen for everyone just because technology is there. Like any tool, you have to know how to use it effectively in order to reach the desired outcome.

a wheel may be a weapon, too

[znrt]

someone asking such a question should definitely not be concerned with education whatsoever.

Short answer, Yes.

[aitikin]

"Do technology aids help, or hinder, education?"

Short answer: Yes!

Long story: When I was in college, I would often bring my laptop (my good ol iBook G4) to classes with me. I'd use in just about every class I could get away with it (couldn't in music classes, science labs, etc) and I'd often spend time reading a new book or catching up on facebook. That being said, there were also a number of courses I was enrolled in that I brought it to and used it to take notes. I'd still end up reading a book, but I'd find I'd get about two chapters done and about two pages worth of decent notes written, whereas in the other classes I'd be closer to five or six chapters (and no notes).

Interestingly enough, even when I would get absolutely no notes taken, my mind was still active enough to catch much of the class discussion and chime in when appropriate, surprising everyone around me (who saw what I was doing) with (mostly) useful insights on the matters. The thing is, when my iBook was battery-less (couldn't get to an Apple store to bitch about it still being under AppleCare), I was so far out of it that when the professor called on me I had to ask her to repeat the question more often then not. Never had that issue when my laptop was there, even though I was not paying the slightest bit of attention...

So my point is, they help, and hinder, but they really help when:
A. The student is interested.
B. The student is able to learn.
C. The topic is important (I paid far more attention in my courses directly correlating to what I wanted to do).
D. Most important of all, the professor/teacher/educator knows what they are doing.

Without point D, you can't expect a student to have A, making C less than likely and B difficult to develop.

Re:Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

Haha

YES - ymmv

[Anonymous Coward]

Bottom line: The students can get a lot more experience and learn a lot more.

It depends on what you are teaching.

I have had success teaching graphic design to high school students. The computer makes some things incredibly easy. Consider balance for instance. You can make an element larger or smaller, darker or lighter. How about repetition. You can have as many of something as you want. You can make them get bigger or smaller. You can make them rotate as they repeat.

The students lose out on hand skills but the advantages outweigh that by far. I painfully remember a disaster with an inking pen that ruined a week's worth of work when I was a student. The computer brings graphics closer to writing. You can edit and perfect a design rather than having to go back to square one. The teacher's suggestions can be included in this design, right now. You don't have to give a student a crummy mark and tell her to do better next time. You can say: "Try these changes and re-submit." The students get a lot more experience and learn a lot more.

Wrong question

[Anonymous Coward]

Around the world, adult literacy classes need 90 hours in the classroom to prepare an illiterate adult's mind to use books to finish high school. In 2 or 3 years, depending on the motivation and intelligence of that adult mind, they can continue to college. Clearly, most of what happens in standard schools is merely maturation of the brain, and the image of 'learning stacked on learning' is bogus, something schools put into our minds to justify their existence.

So, why would I put my kid in a prison for 10 years at $5K / year? Up to $25K / year if I put him in a private school.

Public schools lose 30 - 50 % of their students to dropout and a significant portion of their former students hate everything about education. They are especially bad at dealing with intelligent boys with independent minds. Why would I expose him to that risk of failure?

Kids love learning real skills : cooking, carpentry, auto repair, spreadsheets, gardening, ... They absorb languages like sponges, read adventure books, exciting historical novels, ... As they get older, making beer, growing mushrooms, ...

Kids learn to read without effort when they have computers and other kids to play with. They learn arithmetic, computers, ... Google 'unschooling movement' and 'hole in the wall experiment'.

Every one of you knows that you learn 10X as fast when you are interested in something compared to when the teacher is trying to drill it into your head.

At age 16, it is time to do academic work, as they have adult minds. Plenty of material to make that work on the net, tests to self-check progress and a GED system to certify that they are HS grads, SAT to certify they are ready for college.

Our son is doing fine, the major stress is having the faith to believe in the educational research supporting the above while he continues to be interested in this, that and the other. He has tutors for languages, we clearly see that progress. His piano teacher is happy with his progress (Bach's Toccatta and Fugue, Maple Leaf Rag recently). Also, his writing ability improves without any practice that I see, his mental sophistication, range of knowledge, ... ditto. He has read all of Cornwall's novels, lots of other historical novels, is watching TED talks every day, so we have a lot to talk about. Soccer and other activities keep him in touch with a wide range of friends, and he spends a lot of time in online games with them.

Meanwhile the other parents brag about how many hours their kids spend in after-school classes for math, ... and our son is automating his farms in MineCraft, downloads EE texts to understand logic gates.

So the experiment isn't done yet, parents are a bit nervous, but kid is happy, interested and interesting. Best of all, the beer he makes is completely outstanding and he is very popular with his older friends 8).

No different than computers at work.

[ToasterTester]

People at places I've work think of their work computers like their home computers and spend a lot of time on personal email, surfing net, chatting and other non-work computing. Some places I've worked address this restricting what can be loaded and content monitoring. That helps but people find way to waste time on non-work (and bitch they have to stay late to get work done.)

Then I've been places and gone toe-to-toe with management over all the non-work activity and typically non-work software installed. Management starts justifying it saying people work had "they deserve their diversions". They only time management will complain is when the network start slowing down or I tell them I need more storage. Then they slap employees on the wrist and the cycle start anew.

So I can fully understand the youth of today who live their lives on social media getting a tablet and doing everything but school work. Tablets and other devices will only be a distraction unless they are restricted to education related app's and tools.

Humanity is acquiring all the right technology
for all the wrong reasons - Buckminster Fuller

Fear, Distractions and Instant Gratification

[petes_PoV]

People are simple organisms. They react to immediate threats to their lives, after that they prioritise their next meal, their next dose of "fun" and whatever bodilly functions cause them discomfort.

Now, try to persuade those people to stop doing things they like doing and address some abstract concepts that may, but almost certainly won't, become important to them at some distant point in their futures. That's what education tries to do. it only succeeds because the teacher (for want of a better term) is able to induce or threaten their pupils to PAY ATTENTION - or at least not blatantly ignore them. Then, if the teacher is lucky, a small percentage of the wisdom they impart will be retained - for a few days, at least.

Once you remove the teacher from the scene, and replace him/her/it with a device that gives the pupil access to an almost infinite source of "fun" the chances of them stumbling upon the information they are supposed to be learning is indistinguishably close to zero. [ Although it's still perfectly possible that they will learn stuff that WILL be useful to them in later life, that's not what they will be tested and their teachers' success assessed on - so it doesn't count. ]

Interesting...

[rsilvergun]

taking that a step further, you can argue that the decline in middle class wages is a bigger part of that. Women can't afford to work for low wages as school teachers because their husbands no longer bring home enough money to maintain a middle class standard of living.

Re:Interesting...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the ridiculous redefining of "a middle class standard of living".
I make $16.50 an hour, and my wife stays home with our four children. We're not hurting financially.
We don't own any Apple products, but that's really not a problem.

Re:Interesting...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, you could go the other way and suggest that the influx of women into the ranks of the employable virtually doubled the supply of workers without increasing consumption to compensate. The middle class wages dropped because there is a glut of workers on the market, and they'd rise again if a sufficient number of women (nearly all of them) stayed home to tend the hearth and children.

Re:Interesting...

[wonkavader]

Or we just stopped reproducing in numbers sufficient to increase the population.

Re:Interesting...

[realityimpaired]

It's the ridiculous redefining of "a middle class standard of living".
I make $16.50 an hour, and my wife stays home with our four children. We're not hurting financially.
We don't own any Apple products, but that's really not a problem.

That depends in large part on where you're living, though... $16.50/hr is a very good wage in some parts of the US (where the minimum wage is $7/hr). It's barely enough to make do as a single person living in a bachelor apartment in other parts of the country, and it's less than minimum wage in Australia. The fact is that in different areas, the cost of living is different. I'm making more than $16.50/hr here, and it's barely enough to cover rent, food, utilities, and my car payments, and I'm single. My balance of payments is such that I don't have a home phone (cellular only), and I don't have TV... I wouldn't be able to afford them while staying in the black. I could not support a family on that wage while maintaining my current balance of payments, and would have to get rid of the car to break even if my spouse wasn't working.

Re:Interesting...

[rsilvergun]

Moreover, I would ask:

How much do you save every month for retirement?
How much do you save every month for your 4 children's college fund?
What would you do if your car was wrecked by someone with no insurance and no ability to pay?
What would you do if you were out of work for 6 months due to an injury?

Being middle class isn't about where you are right now, it's about how secure you are in that position. This is the point most people miss. For the record, studies show you need about $65,000/yr average in America to be secure in your middle class standard of living.

Re:Interesting...

[FatLittleMonkey]

How does that help? Reducing the population doesn't reduce the proportion of that population competing for jobs. All you're doing is changing from children being the non-working part of the population, to the elderly.

Re:Interesting...

[93 Escort Wagon]

What would you do if your car was wrecked by someone with no insurance and no ability to pay?

Uninsured/underinsured driver coverage is a standard part of most people's auto insurance, and is very inexpensive - so this is only an issue if you, yourself, are not adequately insured.

I have no issue with your other points, though.

Re:Interesting...

[xelah]

It's not implausible that large numbers of two-income households might have increased the level of competition for adequate housing in space constrained areas and pushed the prices out of reach of most of those without two incomes.

Re:Interesting...

[wmelnick]

Must be nice to be in an area where you can do that for $65k. Here on Long Island, you need about $200,000 to hit that mark. That is not a number I made up, nor is it a scientific study, but rather based on that exact question put forth on a morning radio station a couple of years ago. The decision was that the definition of true middle class was the ability to own am average house (4 bedrooms, 1/4 acre), pay bills, put away for college, for retirement, be able to take a one week non-exotic vacation yearly and get one new car every 3 years (on LI you need one car per working adult - crappy public transit so this mean replace cars every 6 years) and have a few months reserve in case of job loss, etc. Those under $200k/year were unable to do this.

Re:Interesting...

[diamondmagic]

Women can't afford to work for low wages? As compared to what? What is the opportunity cost of working as a school teacher here?

Re:Interesting...

[Anonymous Coward]

You are living on the cusp of failure also. Anything happens to you and your whole family descends into abject poverty. That is not enough money to save and build wealth. At that level you are trapped with a shitty car if you happen to buy a lemon and your mobility is severly limited without destroying your credit. The cusp of failure.

Re:Interesting...

[datavirtue]

As a single person you are paying about $700 a month in taxes MORE than the person with a family of four (at the 16.50 rate). In fact he is given $4000 a year on top of not paying those taxes.

Re:Interesting...

[stu72]

This is a problem of expectations, not economics.

Nobody needs a new car every 3 years, nobody needs 1/4 acre and nobody needs 4 bedrooms unless you have about 12 children, which no one on LI has.

Adjust your expectations and I suspect you could live well on 65k, even on LI.

Re:Interesting...

[dbcad7]

Just as there is no ultimate safe place to live.. there is no real "guaranteed" security.. Saving, whether or not it is for retirement, is a good bet. As the other poster said, uninsured motorist is pretty standard.. As to the 6 month injury, it's a good idea to add the supplemental to disability to your insurance. It's cheap.. Actually if I got injured like that, I would make even more than I do working as I had the option to boost it higher. (had a motorcycle accident years ago, so I am for covering the bases).. As to the college fund, the parent poster said he was single.. but, as people with kids get some awesome tax breaks, there is no reason for some money to be put away for college for them.. A better gage of "security" would be.. If you lost your job and did not get unemployment, how long could you survive without increasing debt, before you would be in serious threat of being on the street ?

Re:Interesting...

[realityimpaired]

This is a problem of expectations, not economics.

No, that's economics. You don't need a new car every 3 years, no (you can take the bus), but 4 bedrooms would be 3 kids, maximum. (try doubling up a pair of teenagers in the same room without their killing each other, I dare you....). But the cost of the house is the big one... in a city like Dayton, OH, you can rent a 2BR apartment for about $500/mo. You can expect to spend more than $2000/mo for the same 2BR apartment in the Bronx, NY, and that's one of the cheapest neighbourhoods in the entire city. And there's other commodities that are more expensive in bigger cities, too... food is more expensive, utilities are usually more expensive, the list goes on. On the whole, you *need* a much higher income level in an area like Long Island than you do in other areas in order to maintain the same quality of life. That is simple economics and supply/demand.

And 65k/year in LI? You can expect to spend $1500/mo in rent in Long Island, for a one bedroom apartment. $1500 * 12 comes out to $18k/year just in rent, not counting the sales tax, condo fees, and insurance. Add food and other expenses on top of that, and subtract the government's share from the 65k/year, and a single person might be able to live comfortably in LI for $65k/year, as long as he's not saving that much money, but a family of four? Not a chance.

Re:Interesting...

[CycleMan]

A quarter acre? What are you doing with all that land? Most of the people I know find that too much work to care for. With your quarter acre, you have to hire a gardener or dedicate precious free time upkeep -- do you want lawn, trees, gardens, or bare ugly dirt and weeds? Of course, Long Island was where Levittown was built -- and those first suburbs featured 2br/1ba homes that took all of 750 square feet, and that was considered middle class back then. Someone who calls into radio stations has expectations and entitlement ideas that may not comport with reality.

Re:Interesting...

[simcop2387]

Even when "adequately" insured it can still be a nightmare. I've got a neighbor that spent about 4 months fighting with the insurance company to get the money to fix a car when they got hit by an uninsured driver. This was because even though they were stopped at a stopsign the insurance company still wanted to claim that they were at fault and not pay anybody at all. It can still be a huge imposition due to the nature of some of the stupidity of the insurance industries.

Re:Interesting...

[rhsanborn]

I grew up with three teenagers in a room, as did generations before.

Re:Interesting...

[Whorhay]

"try doubling up a pair of teenagers in the same room without their killing each other, I dare you"

I did it, as did many of my friends growing up, one family had 4 sons all in one room together. It might mean instilling a better sense of discipline and self control in your children but it is not impossible.

It's my understanding that in the US we have a much higher square footage to resident ratio than many other countries. Unless you want to argue that the average US genome has a built in requirement for more space I'm just not seeing this as a valid issue.

So far as the main topic though I would say that the definition of Middle Class is going to vary by geographic region. Because as you have observed a family in Dayton, OH, can live in a mansion for the cost of a small apartment in LI.

Re:Interesting...

[g0bshiTe]

Seriously parent must have disposable income to replace the car, or must be leasing, which is even worse. There's about $200 - $500 depending make model you could be saving.

A well maintained car should last you 10 years or more, if you feel you need one every few years then you have drank of the cool-aid.

Re:Interesting...

[g0bshiTe]

What awesome tax break?

Re:Interesting...

[ResidentSourcerer]

Years ago I was a sysadmin working for 35K for the University of Alberta. I got an offer from NeXT to work in redwood city. My mom lived near San Jose, so I asked her to send me a copy of the San Jose Mercury. (Pre world wide web)

Here, I was able to live in a small lake cottage 40 minutes commute to work. The mountains were 3 hours away. My house payments were $500 per month. There I couldn't rent a one room apartment for a thousand a month. Comparing other prices it would have cost twice as much to have a comparible life style, and still end up with a longer commute. I told them that I wasn't interested unless they were offering at least 120,000/year, and explained my thinking. I didn't hear back.

Re:Interesting...

[ResidentSourcerer]

You are so right -- it depends of location.

They're stuffing houses 7/acre hear, and that includes the street access.

An average 6 years per car seems a bit quick. I figure that a car is pretty reliable for the first quarter million kilometers. (160,000 miles)

I consider 4 bedrooms larger than average. Square feet would be a better measure however.

As another data point: I consider myself lower middle class or perhaps upper lower class now. My wife and I have a combined pre-tax income of about $40,000 per year.

We have a 2500 square foot house on 80 acres of land that we paid 180K for 12 years ago. It's paid for. (We used to be upper middle class with combined income of about 120K) We have a 2006 Silverado bought used and a 2010 Subaru Outback, bought new. They get about 5000 and 30000 km usage annually.

Minimum wage here is $8 per hour. Industrial wages start at $15 per hour. First year apprentices get $18/hour. Journeymen get $30 per hour. If you have the strength to work in resources you can get 60-80K a year working on the rigs or in the mines.

Re:Interesting...

[dbcad7]

The average dependent (who is not paying taxes btw) increases the tax return well beyond what the average single person gets,, multiply that by each one, and it's some nice cash.. It's a strange system in which those that use more of the government services pay less than single people.. Don't mean to start another inequality debate or "occupy daycare" movement.. just the way it is..

Yeah, right

[Type44Q]

Is E-Learning a Viable Option?

In a word, no.

Motivation

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I'm out of school now and am learning on my own. I spend most of my days interacting with computers learning 5 languages, helping me in my musical aspirations and accessing general information on topics I'm interested in.

This isn't even an issue of whether technology is good or not. It obviously is. An uninterested student will learn little, regardless of the source. Schools are best at turning off learning and pumping out mediocrity. If everyone could find out what they like and were in an environment where they could pursue it, then a bit of game playing wouldn't be frowned upon.

Maybe such antics...

[forkfail]

... wouldn't be a problem is teachers were still allowed to fail students.

Sure, little Johnny can play Skyrim all day - but wait till Mommy and Daddy discover he's flunked the seventh grade....

It works, just not the way you think

[iamacat]

Children learn all the time and, for those with inclination, having access to boundless information pays off. They might start from gaming, but will eventually progress to wikipedia and so on. The rest are just hopeless no matter what you do. However, as a teacher you are obviously responsible for giving direction.

• Does your homework include use of specific apps - say iMovie for film projects and GarageBand for composing music?
• I hope you thought of giving each student a bluetooth keyboard? Learning is not supposed to be one way.
• Did you setup and teach of the use of VNC sessions to school Linux server for programming/scientific tools and other educational software not available on App Store?

Other than that iPad is not a bad choice. While there are cheaper/more ruggedized netbooks, iPad is a magnet for kids of all ages and you can be sure it will be actually used. It's up to you to channel that for educational purposes.

Re:It works, just not the way you think

[rwa2]

Sounds good.

My wife also works for one of these school systems that recently issued iPads to students and teachers (P.G. County, MD). I was surprised that they actually did a good job of it... they actually budgeted for teacher training and for some course materials to be loaded onto it. The student iPads are locked down, so they can't install games and crap, but her iPad is relatively open (but probably somewhat monitored).

She's much more technically savvy than most teachers, and she's been able to put the iPad to good use, but not really for the way it was intended. She uses it to differentiate instruction so some of the kids in her room can work at a different pace.

The other big thing it helps her with is setting up a paperless work environment, where she can email instructions and worksheets to her students for completion. The administration is pretty stingy with photocopier paper quotas for teachers (when the copying machines work, that is :P ), so she pretty much appreciates having the iPads as an expensive workaround to not having other resources readily available :-P

All in all, she manages to use it as another (non-essential) tool. If the money was spent on lowering the student:teacher ration, that would be better. But in the hands of a teacher who knows how to use it as a labor-saving device, it's decent. :-D

P.S. The playing games as a distraction thing is just a classroom management issue that subby's wife has to deal with... kids would turn *anything* into a toy :P

depends

[RandomAvatar]

so long as the students and teachers actually make use of the tools provided, even elarning can be better than in person depending on the person and the material being taught.

eLearning and the iPad - what I use

[Neil_Brown]

(I'm not claiming that the iPad is the only, or even best, tablet for eLearning. But it is the one that I have, having moved to an iPad from a Sony eReader (and a COOL-ER eReader before that), and I've had a good experience of using it for eLearning, hence my comments here.)

iAnnotate PDF: an outstanding application for reading and marking up PDFs. I make a point of converting all my materials to PDF (primarily so that everything opens in one application on my Mac, rather than whatever is assigned to the format of the original piece, and also to make it easy to mark up / annotate on the iPad. I use this for pretty much all my reading, other than published books (below) - for me, it has been most definitely worth the cost. I had a problem with synchronisation, and the support team could not have been more helpful - they invested a considerable time in trying to help me solve the problem, and did not curse me when it finally dawned on me that I had messed up the permissions on the directory on the Linux filestore which holds all my materials... I offered to buy them a pizza or two for their time, to say thanks, but they declined - if you happen to read this, the offer most definitely still stands, guys (and gals). The latest version seems pretty good - minimising distractions when studying is particularly important (and is one of the reasons why I study with Wi-Fi switched off), and the cleaner reading mode and the ability to mark up with fewer taps is very welcome.

PenUltimate: a very simple (to the user - it may be very complex under the surface) notebook-style application - coupled with a Bamboo (Wacom) stylus, it's great for scribbling down thoughts and plans. (I use this in my "day job" for taking notes in meetings - less intrusive than a laptop screen between me and the person with whom I'm talking, and no annoying key taps.) The addition of handwriting recognition (even at additional cost) would be great - I've tried various other notebook applications (including NoteTaker HD), and found PenUltimate better for my needs.

iBooks: I love reading, and thus read a huge amount; frankly, for reading books (where I do not tend to make annotations), a device with an eInk screen is still better, but, since I've moved the iPad for the annotation support and do not want to carry yet another device, I've used iBooks a lot. Clean, simple and I can add my own copies of books, and not just those bought through the iTunes book store (which I've never used, actually) - very pleased with it indeed. I must have read thousands of pages on it, and, whilst it tires my eyes (the iPad screen, not iBooks, really) far more quickly than reading on an eReader device, I'm still happy with it. Calibre (on the PC/Mac/Linux machine, not the iPad) for "liberating" eBooks to be read in iBooks is rather handy, although I don't use it for eBook management.

Bamboo (Wacom) stylus: I used an AluPen stylus for a while, but found it became less and less easy to make a positive mark on the screen; whether the tip was wearing down, I'm not sure. I initially baulked at the idea of spending £25 on a stylus but, once I'd tested the Bamboo stylus, I decided (on the spot, as it happens) that it was worth the money. I find it very fluid, and easy to use to write on the screen,without needing to worry about making a stroke - I can focus on the thinking, and not the physical act of writing.

What I have used less:

Pages: hardly worth the money, in my opinion. I use it on the Mac, and am a fan, but not so much on the iPad, since I don't find typing on the on-screen keyboard very easy. I've used Pages on the iPad a couple of times for making minor changes, but never for the creation of substantial pieces of work - a physical keyboard works better for me, and, since I tend to have a computer with me if I think I might want to do some writing, I'll reach for that every time.

MindNode: bought because it syncs with the desktop version, which I've used on and off for brainstorming. However, on the iPad, I just find it less useful - I've reviewed the occasional brainstorm on it, but a PDF version works just as well for me.

abide app

[Anonymous Coward]

Make an app that restricts their use during class. After class finished lift the restrictions. Bad students don't get the restrictions lifted as punishment.

I know kids will hack it and bypass it, but at least they have to try a bit harder to get away with it.

Good Homes

[glorybe]

I mean to offend no one but simply stating my belief will upset many people. A good child in a good home can -learn easily. Two parents with solid incomes are needed. One must be able to pay close attention to the child constantly. Single parents or income challenged families or families with a child with issues or even homes with too many children will make e-learning a poor choice. As usual this will become almost racial in its perception. What we have already are classes that have what amounts to a guard observing the class while media and computers educate the kids individually. Spanish classes in some schools are already automated. This will also mean the elimination of teaching as a career or source of livelihood. And finger pointing is going to take place. The only reason for that classroom and guard to exist are the troubled families. More fortunate families can have pure e-learning at home which will pretty much eliminate the cost of education. Even college can be done this way for almost no cost at all. Old Ivy may be in deep trouble. What about our teachers? And then there is school staff to consider, cleaners, lawn workers, cafeteria workers all vanish and the construction trades used to build and repair schools will also suffer. Yet when a quality education can be provided almost free of tax dollar input just how can we justify traditional schools tom serve only troubled homes? It is almost like declaring lack of affluence and stability to be some sort of crime against society.

feedback

[Tom]

There's a lesson from NLP: There's no failure, only feedback.

If the pupils use the iPads for gaming during class, that is a very strong feedback that the games are more interesting than school.

Maybe that is the root cause, not the technology? If they don't have iPads, they'll go back to playing games on paper, like pretty much every generation of school children since the invention of the pencil.

Re:feedback

[forkfail]

Of course games are more fun - they're designed to be fun.

And unfortunately, you can't make all learning into a game. At some point, there is grind and rote. Be it learning the muscle memory of playing musical scales to get your chops or the process of doing one math problem after another, at some point, you gotta pay your dues.

At some point, one has to crack down and work. And the work ethic is also something that needs to be taught along with reading, writing, math and technology.

Re:feedback

[Tom]

Of course games are more fun - they're designed to be fun.

Watch more children. They are intensely curious, and something new and interesting will take their interest off any game in a second.

At some point, one has to crack down and work. And the work ethic is also something that needs to be taught along with reading, writing, math and technology.

There is no ethic in work, and if you believe there is, you have been brainwashed.

And there is no work in basic skills. Most kids actually want to learn to read by the time they enter school.

Our education is seriously fucked up because it is built on the mental model of a factory - generating a continuous stream of output of identical units. It's no surprise the units disagree on the idea and rebel against it in their own little ways.

It is a tool not a solution

[haus]

Having a chalk board in a rrom does not cause education to take place, but if it is well used it can be helpful to the process.

Giving a kid a computer is only slightly better than giving them a chalk board. If you provide tools and guidence and use the tool well then you have a chance an real learning.

I was homeschooled online...

[Anonymous Coward]

Before online homeschooling was cool. I also currently take both online and offline (real life, whatever you want to call it) university classes for my degree. There's a bit of a discrepency in timing, I graduated highschool in 2004, because of my rather extended higher education career.

As I like to say, you get out of it what you put into it. If you have a kid who can't sit still and learn on their own, or even learn on their own running around like a maniac, then they're not going to get anything out of homeschooling. If you have a kid who's a naturally great learner, even if they're like me and a terrible student, then they'll be perfectly fine.

Trying to boil down the problem to "Is the idea that students can be home-schooled electronically realistic, or absurd?" is itself absurd as it all depends on the motivation and dedication of the student. =)

Learning is internal, not external.

[Anonymous Coward]

Learning happens inside the brain, regardless of the external tools used to trigger neural connections.

"E-Learning" is often a euphemism for online testing, which has less to do with the process of learning than with the administration of grades.

Proven to work in the 60's

[meburke]

Programmed instruction, computer aided instruction and the like were very successful in the 60's and 70's, but most educational environments couldn't afford it.

One of the most successful was the PLATO project sponsored by CDC. Using touch screen technology and programmed instruction, students were able to learn advanced mathematics and other subjects like chemistry in a client-server environment.

Texas Instruments had a "Talking Typewriter" that taught 3- to 6-year-olds how to touch type. (The keys were different colors. The teacher painted the student's fingernails colors to match the keys, and a programmed instruction course on the terminal would teach them to type.)

A key element was that children couldn't fail. They would become completely engrossed in learning when they were immediately successful and immediately rewarded for it by getting immediate feedback.

Programmed instruction was developed by B. F. Skinner and Norman Crowder. (Your history may vary, but i'll stick by it.) Programmed instruction was more expensive to develop because the information, presented in "frames", had to be tested so that over 98% of the time the student picked the right answer. This required much testing and re-writing. Also, programmed instruction presented in books usually resulted in books twice or three times larger than regular textbooks. Even though a student would finish the book in one-third to one-sixth the time for reading a comparable textbook, the publishing costs were much greater.

B. F. Skinner fell out of favor first, because it turned out that his theory of Operant Conditioning and Behaviorism didn't explain the learning of language in young people, and second, for political incorrectness during the late 70's and early 80's.

You can't just give children a device without the proper tools to accomplish your task. Giving children computers and game consoles without goals and direction is a case of "jumping to solutions" without adequate requirements analysis. Given the choice, children will automatically gravitate toward those things that are more like play than study, but children love to learn; they will spend hours on projects that they find rewarding.

What works? Montessori methods work, but this is a whole environment. If you have money, send your kids to a Montessori school.

Directed study works, but the teachers have rebelled.

Deer Park, Texas started a TQM project for their schools, and increased student competency by 20-44%. Teachers don't like it for the same reason they don't like directed study; they think they are the experts. (In spite of huge quantities of evidence to the contrary.)

An example of modern programmed instruction, pretty well done, is The Logic Cafe ( http://thelogiccafe.net/PLI/index.htm ). TLC is a hybrid site that uses the principles of programmed instruction with additions. To me, this is an example of how good programmed instruction could be developed. If someone designs a programmed instructional website they can automatically pinpoint and revise frames that don't get 98%+ positive responses. IMHO, most CAI fails because they just record boring, un-goaled lectures and present it as "instruction."

Programmed instruction in books was used a lot by CDC, IBM, Jeppson, Xerox, Fereal Electric, Phillips-Ford, and many others. Ken Stroud's book, "Engineering Mathematics" is still one of the most popular Engineering Math books available.

Yes, technology and e-learning could be real good for kids, but there has to be some content.

It depends

[augi01]

As it stands, your question yields by default the answer, "it depends." With no restrictions, minimal training and supervision, the use of iPads (or whatever) in the classroom can hinder greatly students' performance. On the other hand, with restrictions, training and adequate supervision, there's no (immediate) reason why iPads (or whatever) cannot benefit students greatly. Without any additional information about how and within what framework the technology is being implemented, a more definite answer cannot be reached.

Damn Printing Press, Too Many Comic Books

[retroworks]

For speed and access to composition, technology is great. Many, many people will use it for games and porn, instead of X, and X is rarely "read collective works of Charles Dickents". But the yellow press helped pay off printing press investments in record time, and in the end it doesn't matter why 99 people use the technology if it lowers the cost of production for the 100th. Snail mail is the same way, without junk mail the cost of sending a check would be much higher.

Re:Damn Printing Press, Too Many Comic Books

[Anonymous Coward]

Charles Dickents is one of my favorite authors.

Why not give them computers?

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, real computers, with a keyboard. Not big phones that aren't even good for making phone calls. In any case, they shouldn't be used in the classroom, except in a programming class. Don't try to compete for attention with a blinking screen.

Technology is useful for E-Learning if used right

[Rtarara]

This is actually my field. Basically, it all comes down to teacher training. There are many very valuable ways to use iPads or netbooks in a classroom. Interactive instruction IS more effective than the traditional lecture model. Teachers just need to learn how to design interactive instruction. An iPad should never be used as a note-taking device in an elementary school classroom. It can be used to access the internet for webquests and interactive project making. There are a lot of great apps that teach a large number of spelling or math skills. There are more for younger children that deal in shapes and colors. These can be used at home and are fun, that is one of the areas where an iPad shines. A lot of the time homework is just a way to grade how good of parents a child has. If a great piece of interactive instruction has been designed, then students won't need help on it. I am trained to design such things (there really is a lot to it), but teachers only get one course in how to use technology and older teachers likely had none. It takes a lot of time and teachers don't have have the time or knowledge to do it themselves. They will get the funding to get iPads, but no money to buy useful apps. There would be great learning taking place with these devices, if the infrastructure was in place. It isn't. You have to have the hardware, the software, the training AND the time to make it work. It is rare to see of of those things come together.

It's the pads

[bytesex]

Pads are a gimmick in search of a serious application. If your class plays angry birds instead of taking notes, then it's because the game was made for touch-screens, while typing (real, productive typing, I mean, like the one you would use when taking notes) isn't.

Useful tools, just like a blackboard

[oh2]

Im a teacher and IT IS a useful tool just like many other things. As several intelligent people in this thread has pointed out, the most important factor for learning is the teacher and the way the students work is organised. Feedback and feedforward, formative assessment and engaged and enthusiastic teachers are the best way of improving learning. Computers are a good tool both for me as a teacher and for my students. Im not a fan of the 1-1 projects that pop up everywhere, a computer is in my experience best used as a collaborative tool where two to four students use it for writing, making presentations and doing research. I work with kids in 3rd, 4th and 5th grade (9-11 years old here in Sweden). Its not the technology in itself, but what you do with it that has an impact.

Lock it down

[Anonymous Coward]

Why wasn't the device locked from installing apps with a password only known to the teacher....We use ipods for point of sale table side ordering where I work and we face the same problems. We lock them down.

You can't teach something you don't know

[Hentes]

First of all, if you give the kids a toy, of course they will play with it. Tablets are overpriced toys, give them real netbooks. What's important to understand, that technology is just a tool, it's not going to educate the kids (outside a small number of nerds) just by itself. If you want to teach using technology, you first have to learn how to use technology yourself. You need complete control over the stuff, the ability to set any privilege on and off remotely, to transform the machines to a dumb terminal or even a dumb monitor when it's needed. You need to plan your classes around the devices. You need to have the material in digital form. You need to have programs that can help learning a subject. But, most importantly, you need to learn technology yourself.

As for home schooling, while I can't speak for all of us here, I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one who gained most knowledge from the iInternet instead of the school. It's completely feasible, there are tons of knowledge on any topic, along with the requirements that are needed in school. It only requires the will, or a supporting parent. Even better, nowadays there are many video lectures that someone can just watch and learn abot any given topic.

Didn't work for my son...

[billybob_jcv]

When my son was in high school, he took an online community college course. It was a disaster. He didn't read the material, didn't do the work, and basically just blew the whole thing off. I think it's like anything else - if the kid is self-motivated, interested and wants to learn, it will work - if not, it won't.
 

Supervision

[YetAnotherBob]

For students younger than College age, supervision is needed in the classroom. What was told here was that the Teacher had trouble monitoring the students, and so avoided the problem by removing the tool. For teachers without the proper background or without the proper tools, this would be a good approach.

What the tablets (or netbooks or whatever) need is to have the teacher able to monitor what programs are running, and shut down any non-educational ones. That vital piece of the puzzle was apparently lacking. Letting the kids just use the tablets without any monitoring is going to be an epic FAIL. The problem came from up the IT food chain in the School District.

This problem is not really a new one. When I was in school, it was common for a student to slip a comic book into his/her textbook to read during study time. A simple blank piece of paper also works, if you have a pencil or pen. (Remember passing notes in Jr High and High School. It hasn't stopped, just gone more high tech.) My Wife, a remedial reading teacher in a Jr. High school, confiscates several cell phones each semester for texting in class. The phones are turned into the office, and the parents have to come and pick them up.

Tablets are really just one more distraction if they are not locked down.

Already there

[rsilvergun]

US birth rates are hovering at 1.9, and that's before the introduction of several new contraceptive solutions.

we need to stop tech the test in learning at all

[Joe_Dragon]

levels tech the test is bad for pre College and even in College many classes are all about the test as well.

The only important number is student:teacher ratio

[rbrander]

When you talk about changing modern education, you first need to understand how unprecedented and cheap it is.

All education before it had a student:teacher ratio of at most 5:1, with the average under 2:1. The majority was 1:1 - parent-child and master-apprentice (Even Sith Lords understood the importance of the ratio!)

"Modern" education, with its 30:1 ratio, made it affordable to all by dropping the cost of teaching a remarkable order-of-magnitude, but at the cost of regimentation and a wide spectrum of outcomes, from the left-behind to the racing-ahead. Any teacher will tell you that it's all about the parents, ie the direct-contact with the child, encouraging and expecting learning. The teacher has about 200days * 5 hours/30 =33 hours per year per student; the parents, about 365*12 = 4380. Google "30 million word gap" for an especially depressing take on how handicapped some kids are by their parent's behaviour.

The mistake with e-learning is imagining it to be the 'electronic teacher' (as TV was called the "electronic babysitter" when I was little). But until we get AI - and computers allowed to *make* the kid mind with punishments or something, they will remain just a passive tool that requires MORE, not less, supervision. The teacher here *could* have made use of iPads, if they'd had another teacher assigned, well-prepped with iPad experience and software. But they had no more time to supervise iPad use that they would have had to supervise the kids being given their own LHC to help them learn physics.

The big deal when I was a kid (60's) was TV in the classroom. That was going to free up teacher time because we could just watch our education on TV. Alas, we required closer supervision with the TV on; kids werre more likely to talk and giggle than when watching a live person who kept making eye contact.

I suspect a majority of the population could qualify for the Ivy League if they were raised in homes full of stimulation and good example, then educated at a 5:1 ratio that gave the educators time to use and supervise the use of modern technology.

My parents, educated in the late 1920's and most of the 1930's, were the first generation to all get 12 years of 30-kid-room public education; my Mom's coal-miner Dad went to the mines at 12. If the overall rising wealth of society since those days had been expressed with shrinking class sizes rather than , say, an increase in home size from 500 to 2000 square feet, we'd have at least 8:1 classes by now - a return to old traditions, as it were, you'd think that would be popular with conservatives.

And then there'd be time to think of something to do with those iPads.

Minimising distractions - what I wish I'd known...

[Neil_Brown]

One of the greatest meta-learnings from my course was that my life, and my work habits, were full of distractions which kept stealing my attention and focus. I don't claim to have the ideal solution (and spending time on being less distracted is, in itself, a distraction, so there's a clear cost-benefit exercise to be done), but I've found the following things very valuable. I am enjoying the journey of discovery but, at the same time, I wish I'd thought to implement some of these before I had started my formal eLearning - although they are useful to me for far more than just the formal studying.

1.) Use my head for processing, not storage. Even without a computer around, I found I was distracted, simply with too much going on in my head. I've tried very methods of solving this but, so far, the one which has worked the best is David Allen's "Getting Things Done" approach. My implementation is very simple and, so far, has proved very effective; crazy though it sounds, it just feels - physically feels - that my head is less crowded. This alone has had a massive impact on my focus and productivity.

2.) I am not connected to the Internet unless I need it for the task at hand. I find that, if I have the Internet available, I can be distracted quite easily - just by disconnecting, I can concentrate on the task at hand, without email pinging in, temptation to browse the web etc. - for me, it's about minimising the temptation. (William Power's "Hamlet's BlackBerry" made me think more about this, as did Nicholas Carr's "The Shallows.")

3.) Taking regular breaks. I can do a task for about an hour before my productivity starts to dwindle. A five minute break gets me back up and running, although there is a slight lead time to getting back to full productivity again. But, overall, there is a definite gain by having that break.

4.) Minimise computer distractions.

As a first step, this involves switching off any form of notification which does not relate to the task at hand, with the exception of a warning about battery life. If I want to see if I have email, I can check, for example; I don't need it pushed to me, or automatically notified to me.

If I cannot switch off Internet access (perhaps where I am researching online) I will switch off / do not open my email application, turn off Skype and the like. I switched off incoming email sounds and on-screen notifications quite a while back, but I realised, after I had stopped to think, that email was still distracting me. If I had the email application open on one screen, when an email came in, I was drawn to it. If it was not visible, I had to switch to it every few minutes, to check.

Now, I work with my email client either closed, or else offline. When I want to deal with email - either where there is a logical end of a task / some free space in my head - I log in and check; if there's something there, I apply the "Getting Things Done" principles. I don't feel guilty that I am not constantly monitoring it, and am less stress and more productive as a result.

I've tried to avoid particular software solutions, but I have found DoublePane on the Mac very useful: if I am typing corrections / annotations on a PDF document into the word processing copy, I will have the two applications on screen, side by side. Having to alt/cmd-tab between applications increases the chances of me getting distracted, and this is an easy way of minimising that risk.

5.) One task at a time. Perhaps just part of the "Getting Things Done" approach, but I get much more done if I focus on one thing at a time. If I'm reading a document, I'm reading a document - I am not checking my email, or browsing the news, or drinking a cup of tea. At the end of it, I can go and get that drink, and, if it's really stopping me from concentrating on the reading, then I'll go and sort it (no point trying to read and understand if not concentrating), but if I can wait, I do.

6.) Waves / rain soundtrack: stupid though it may sound, I find it easier to concentrate when having waves / rain soundtrack playing (through headphones preferably, but speakers at a pinch) then having music or no sound at all - it helps my focus hugely.

Real issue

[Anonymous Coward]

The real problem lies not in the technology, but in the culture. Even in this age where "nerds" like Jobs and Gates reigned...we still have a negative stereotype of people who do well in (public) school. While it may now be cool to carry a gizmo and use it, the stigma remains that the A student, unless also a sports star, is to be mocked and ridiculed.

I blame the compulsory (forced) nature of our system, where morons cannot readily drop out to pursue demeaning work.....and I blame the capitalist/hereditary nature of our higher education, where a mediocre high-school student with a million dollars to blow, or a successful parent (legacy) can get a degree from a prestigious school while better minds are left to rot for lack of funds.

If it were clear at all ages that dedication to schoolwork almost always paid off, and yet that it was not a "or jail" requirement to pursue scholastic excellence...we might see a far more motivated youth.

Instead we have a culture of "school sucks" whereas many other nationalities have a culture of "school is the best thing ever" Is it any wonder they excel?

Yup - we sure done good these past too centurys

[Anonymous Coward]

My son is gunna be the best buggy whip maker in the whole state!

Wrong question

[Anonymous Coward]

The right questions are :

Are schools a good use of your educational dollars and your child's life?

Around the world, adult literacy programs require 90 hours in a classroom to prepare an adult mind to use books to continue their education, self-taught. Depending on the mind, the motivation and time, adults can be ready for college in 2 or 3 years. Read O'Neill's 'Summerhill' for examples of kids. Google 'un-schooling' and 'hole in the wall experiment' for more on this.

US public schools routinely cause 30 - 50% of their students to drop out. They produce a high proportion of functional illiterates who hate everything about education. Even good schools, where the parents are serious about the children doing well, have a high 'hidden' dropout rate, e.g. kids who go to college and flunk out, start drugs, ... School is very hard on even good students, as the technology of lectures and testing that most schools use for teaching is very ineffective.

Why should I expose my child to those risks?

Given the Internet and WWW, it is really hard to raise an ignorant child. Kids love to learn practical skills, new projects, and absorb languages as easily as breathing.

So go with what the kids love, provide a very wide practical background, and start academics at age 16.

Our 15-year-old son watches TED talks, reads adult books, automates his MineCraft games with information he gets from downloading EE books to learn about logic gates. Except for language lessons, music, soccer and dance, and suggestions about books, he is entirely self-driven. About the only rules in his life is that he can't play games during the week.

He knows a lot, writes well (when I can get him to write something), makes really good beer. His last 2 big pieces of music were "Toccata and Fugue" and "Maple Leaf Rag", both of which he started playing by ear before his teacher gave him the music and started helping.

We all know that we learn about 10X as fast when we are interested in learning. Kids have interests, which school systematically crushes.

( hope this isn't a repeat, couldn't find an earlier version of this that I tried to post.)

Wrong question.

[Anonymous Coward]

The correct question is "how should I spend educational dollars and my child's time?"

The answer is certainly not "in school".

The public school system, and most private schools, use sub-optimal educational technology (lecture and test). That plus the one-size-fits-all approach and the standard controlling environment is exactly wrong, couldn't be worse.

The result is that 30 - 50% of students drop out and the public school system produces functional illiterates that hate education. It is very difficult to recover from that experience, while it is very easy to recover from illiteracy.

So, why expose my child to those risks? Instead, allow them to do what they like up to age 16 or 17. Projects of all kinds, languages, ...

Our kid speaks, reads and writes (still haltingly for one) 4 languages. Plays soccer, dances, makes great beer. Watches TED talks, reads historical novels, downloads EE texts to learn logic gates so he can automate his farms in MineCraft.

In a year or 2 he will have to rush through Khan's Academy, then learn Sage to start real science and math. Will have to find a math tutor who can use Sage, but there are plenty of people on the net who will do so, in one or another of the languages he can use.

The public education system is organized for the benefit of the Administrators and teachers, not for students or their parents. Don't do that to your kids.

Sex ed eLearning...

[Anonymous Coward]

is how most ./'ers acquired their "skills"... Learned it as a solo sport...

Get them interested

[Xanny]

The problem with modern public education is that from a young age any child going through school is disenfranchised from it by having to do things they already know, dont know, or having difficult social circumstances with classmates, etc.

Whatever it is, the problem is that 90% of kids dont want to be there. They dont care, they dont want to learn because they dont care to learn. That is the massive gaping wound in public education. It is also a factor of the factory like public schooling we have - in this "information" age, students should be learning what interests them from a young age. If you foster creative sparks and teach what the student wants to know, they will actively participate and things like ipads become accessories to learning to help promote it, not the other way around.

Real world example. At my high school we had macbooks when I graduated. Standardized test scores dropped by 30%, 60% of students grades dropped, 20% stayed the same, 20% went up. The 60% whose grades declined were using the laptops to ignore the classroom and not engage in something they didnt want to do. The 20% whose grades went up used the laptops in class to accelerate learning. The other 20% did some of both. The net result is that a huge fraction of a student body doesnt want to be there, and has no interest in learning, and you try to force feed them material that wont stick or have lasting impact but then try it again the next day, the next year, and for 13 years straight. It is a broken system by that mark.

You need to get every young person interested in education, get them something that they would want to learn, and move away from the factory farm public school system we have today. Technology allows more specialized per child education, and it really needs to happen. The technology has encroached everywhere else in their lives except in schools in any meaningful way - just throwing ipads at a disenfranchised populace only gives them more tools to ignore the class.

elearning: the next generation

[CoderFool]

An advantage of a tablet is less weight than carrying around textbooks. Web access is great for submitting assignments and getting help. The next generation ought to be releasing the elearning courses under some kind of creative commons like license to some variation of wikipedia so that all students and teachers can find the best lessons that explain a particular topic. Then you wouldn't be as limited by a local crappy teacher if you could find the best of the best in a national repository. Just like there is differing quality of teachers, there is differing quality in textbooks and elearning courses. If we had a best of the best repository (with user ratings), then we wouldn't have to waste as much time plowing through a crappy lesson. I know in looking at technical books there are few genuinely useful gems and a lot of mediocre to crappy one that do no more than repeat the basics and each other. Thats one reason I went exclusively to safari books-online so after I have read a crappy book I have only wasted some time, not $60. I wish there were more electronic libraries.

Re:Amusing how many oppose technology for educatio

[Anonymous Coward]

Computers need to be available, as they are the best way to motivate a budding geek. But let's behonest, we're not representative of the way the general public learn. A computer isn't a substitute for good teachers though. Children learn best by doing things, and the abstraction caused by using a computer hinders this.

Re:As a parent with a kind who got a school laptop

[cowtamer]

Mod parent up. I also got into programming because all I had access to was a hand-me-down Apple II in 1993. It probably got me into the field single-handedly.

That being said, there is something to be said to provide technology for the sake of learning the technology itself. Logging onto the web and finding your own games IS a skill. The second part of my computer education was getting through the school's pathetic security (FileMenu=0 in Windows 3.1's win.ini) to run my own programs. Sometimes I think the whole thing was set up as a sneaky way to teach kids about computer networking.

(Downloading Doom on a 2400 baud connection and running it on a 25 Mhz Pentium with 4MB of RAM was also quite a learning experience)

Wrong question.

[Anonymous Coward]

The correct question to an entire class of questions is :

"What is the best use of my educational dollars and my child's time?"

Around the world, adult literacy programs require 90 hours in a classroom to prepare adult minds to pursue their education on their own, using textbooks. Depending on the mind, motivation and opportunity, those adults can enter college in 2 or 3 years. Clearly, most of the 'progress' that parents and teachers brag about are the result of mental maturation, and skipping the first 10 years of school would be an economic benefit.

In every country's public educational system, lectures + testing are used as the main teaching methodology. This does not match the impednce of most children's minds. Likewise, the one-size-fits-all approach that tries to lockstep children through the 'educational process'.

The result, here in the US, is a dropout rate of 30 - 50%. Even in the best public schools, where parents make sure their kids' developing personalities don't get in the way of homework, the hidden dropout rate is high : drugs, games, or a failure to deal with freedom when they get to college.

Kids have interests. Learning from interest is 10X as effective as having a teacher try to drill knowledge into you.

So our kid has nearly no constraints on his time and attention except tutors and a prohibition from playing games during the weeks. We make suggestions about books he will like, some of which he ignores. He is learning languages, does a lot of projects (makes great beer), watches TED talks, reads a lot of books, watches science and history programs from Netflix and Youtube, so we have a lot to talk about. Plays MineCraft, where he is the engineer automating their farms and games. Downloads EE texts to learn logic to do this. His 2 most recent pieces learned for the piano were "Toccata and Fugue" and "Maple Leaf Rag", both of which he started to learn 'by ear' before getting his teacher to help. Soccer, dance, ... lots to keep him busy and interested.

His writing abilities continue to improve, as shown by the few pieces I can get him to write. Reading is nearly adult speed and comprehension.

In a year or 2 he will have to start academics. Khan's Academy, and I will have to find a tutor somewhere on the net who is willing to build a curriculum around Sage. Kid speaks, reads and writes (haltingly for one) 4 languages, so we shouldn't have too much problem with finding that tutor. Everything else is reading and discussing it with one of the adults in his life.

GED to prove he has a HS background, SAT to prove that he is ready for college, a year in junior college while living at home, and then a year abroad in each of 3 countries, GRE to prove that he has the ability for graduate school, ... No worries, our kid is doing very well, has a huge headstart over the kids who are imprisoned in public schools.

Remote control and white listing.

[Fri13]

When you give pen and paper to kid, they do draw things on it even when taking notes and so on. They play tick-tack-toe games and send notes to each other.

When you give a computer to kid, they search its functions and exploits them, they play games or send messages to each other.

The computer like iPad can be very powerfull tool, but it demands that teachers and especially school IT admins knows how to limit the access to it.
Instead with paper and pen, you really can limit what applications can be installed to device and what can be ran. You can set every message to be sended trough school servers. You can even have a remote control to them so you can turn them off or just turn the screens off, or even see what every kid is doing with their computers.

My college has made school E-learning systems using Linux. And one of the features is that every file is stored to school servers and systems anyways use remote logins, and teachers has full remote control capabilities if needed. One of the most important features is to turn students screens off until teacher release access again. It is really a important thing as it really moves kids attention to teacher much better way.

Teachers can as well see who is doing and what on their computers. They are not allowed to run any programs what IT-admins have not admitted, every URL/IP is whitelisted and teachers can give specific timelines when students can have a access to other sites than what is already given.

Teachers work is to guide and rule kids, slow down their access to information and teach how to use it to get full potential from it.
Computer does never replace parenthood, neither does TV.

The iPads what schools gets, should have whitelistings, remote control and controlled lists of installed applications. If not, then school has made first mistake in the beginning.

Learning requires effort.

[Beeftopia]

Learning requires effort. It requires concentration and forcing glucose through the brain. If using a gadget can make that easier (e.g. word processing), use it. But don't expect the gadget to reduce the core effort. But that is what some wish these gadgets to be - a method to effortlessly upload knowledge.

Trying to learn without effort is like trying to build muscle without working out. For the freakishly genetically endowed, like Herschel Walker or Bo Jackson, they are freakishly strong and powerful and have massive endurance without having to do much work at all. In the intellectual arena, there are kids who are able to upload vast quantities of knowledge with little effort.

I applaud people for trying to reduce the effort required to uptake knowledge. Just like I'd applaud someone who came up with a system which could increase our strength and endurance with less effort. Computers are powerful devices. But I don't see their use reducing the effort of learning, especially in the earlier grades.

An Encyclopedia Britannica subscription will make it much easier for an interested child to access that knowledge, than requiring a parent to take him to the library. A math game could speed up a child's uptake of multiplication tables. Perhaps electronic games could be used to motivate children. The Economist had a fascinating special report a couple of weeks ago on the "game-ification" of the world.

I think we should continue to look for solutions to make education easier and more accessible. We should think outside of the box to look for optimizations. But, on some level, learning will always require some effort and discipline. Just like strength or endurance training.

Re:Learning requires effort.

[Dr Max]

just wait till we have learning drugs, matrix style data absorption, and the ability to let robots exercise our genetically enhanced bodies while we watch tv. Jokes aside what you say is very true.

Honestly . . .

[Toddlerbob]

Stories like this are kind of like saying, "Pencils - are they really good for writing? Look what those junior high school kids did with their pencils !!!!!! Can they possibly be any good for anything?"

Sheesh

e-learning == e-diets

[andrewlivi]

There is only one way for a fat person to lose weight. They have to want to it. The same thing is true for e-learning. Student's won't learn unless they want to or they are made to. Also don't forget parents that enable bad behavior. I have personally witnessed a mother take an online test for her son so that he would not fall behind.

i told you so

[Anonymous Coward]

i'm not one to "i told you so" but "i fuckin told ya so"

Train kids on modern tools.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong, wrong, wrong, a little bit right, and wrong again.

A blackboard is a great way to teach arithmetic, but a terrible way to teach use of advanced mathematical tools, such as Excel, Matlab, etc. We should be introducing advanced topics and methods at as young an age as we can, because kids have powerful minds and they should be employed in the service of [themselves and] their species ASAP!

Kids need muscle-memory, practice and inculcation with the tools of their day, not just the timeless academic principles, which can be transmitted through speech, chalk-board or interpretive dance.

You're right in that outside factors have a HUGE impact; atmospheres of pro/anti-intellectualism, possibility of a stable, nurturing home life, the presence of hope for a child's own sovereignty in her life, etc. But if all those things line up, and the kid has full support and focus to dive right into school, and they're NOT supplying relevant modern skillsets? Wasted.

There was a time when chalkboards were new-fangled. Would you have banned them then?

e-learning is a lot more than just the devices

[mschuyler]

In my opinion, it can work well. My grandson is homeschooled through an e-learning program that has resulted in his gaining two years academically last year alone. He also gets one-on-one speech therapy (He has some burned out brain cells and a resulting Elmer Fidd kind of accent). He also gets plenty of interaction, so it's not as if he sits home isolated.

The key, I believe, is a school system that does not resist this and helps parents get the tools they need to make this work. It's inevitavable anyway....

"E"-Learning? "E"-InterNet or "E"-Device?

[Anonymous Coward]

Using computers as communication devices for teaching and learning from internet distribution of educational matter and e-mail one-on-one communication between teacher and student works. It works via the same principles correspondence-course teaching and learning worked, but works better, where implemented properly (teachers maintaining regular e-mail 'office' hours for question-answer with students) because of e-mail's immediate communication capability.

providing students computers (and, until complex math, science and engineering levels of education, where calculation is used as a tool and is not the subject being learnt, even calculators), before education is advanced enough they are tools (or, themselves, subject, e.g., being programmed) is counter-productive. This is because education is training of the human mind, and training the human mind requires making the human mind do work.

The problem of counter-productive introduction of convenience devices is not a computer-age problem. It has been around since the Industrial Revolution introduced mass manufacture of ready-to-play-with toys and since television and movies began producing ready-conceived story presentations. Its physical counterpart is the wheel and beast-of-burden, transportation devices of all kinds and even computer-games, which displace human personal physical activity. Children with nought but raw materials, who, for toys, must imagineer and fabricate for themselves, and who for stories must imagine the scenes and characters themselves, learn to learn from doing those things. They, not the engineers and designers, who do the inventing and translating to fabrication of such things as Transformers (tm), and the directors, set and props constructors and actors, who generate the presentations of film and video presentations, do the inventing, designing, characterizing, setting, costuming and so forth. From doing they develop abilities to intellectually conceive, instead of only receive pre-digested and regurgitated (party-line) information and entertainment.

PostScript: The question of the original post would be a good question for a slashdot poll.

Online schooling works for my kids.

[Anonymous Coward]

Both of my two girls are now in their 3rd year (9th grade) of electronic 'schooling from home' (this is not 'homeschooling') and both are scoring above the 95th percentile on their yearly national standardized tests (English, Math and History) - so yes ("Is the idea that students can be home-schooled electronically realistic, or absurd?"), it's not only realistic, but works wonders for the kids who are self-motivated and ready to school themselves and move ahead at a faster pace. I keep an eye on what my kids are doing throughout their six hour workday, but I don't need to hover, and their online teachers stay in contact with me through email throughout the week. See the k12.com website; they have online charter schools in most states that'll cover the costs for you. It won't work, however for the parents of younger children who don't have a parent ready to help them stay on track throughout the day (someone will need to be the stay-at-home 'mentor'), and for high school age kids who are having motivation problems. Of the 500 or so kids in my daughters' virtual school, roughly half are excelling and half are having problems of various sorts - there doesn't seem to be much middle ground in this type of schooling.

I agree...but

[Roger W Moore]

Where parents fit in is discipline and respect for the teacher

While, as a parent, I completely agree with that statement it is not easy given some of the teachers my kids have had. For example we've had primary school teachers who thought that "opaque" was spelt "opague", thought the french for 1,000 was 'cent' (which is 100) etc. These were not one-off accidents of writing but repeated multiple times on handwritten sheets or graded work.

It is exceedingly hard to instill respect for the teacher when you are having to correct what the teacher has told your kids all the time. Afterall, to correct an error we are effectively telling them to ignore what the teacher says because it is wrong and, as kids, the eventual logic is "if we can ignore the teacher for X perhaps we can also ignore them for Y".

As a result I'm always reluctant to correct what the teacher has said (or more often written down since kids are not always reliable at reporting what was said). Fortunately the large majority of the teachers our kids have had have been good but the odd one here and there have been somewhat problematic. However when there is something clearly wrong I feel I have to correct it regardless of the consequences and it is worth noting that generally the less than competent teachers are the ones who have had more trouble maintaining class discipline.

What the heck is wrong with you people?

[dafing]

I graduated from my high school in 2005, and I *still* remember the nightmare of our school "computers". They were locked down, pieces of crap which were expected to last forever, and they were HORRIBLE to use. And guess what! Students hated the machines, hated the chores, and hated the class. I am sure most of them hated the subject, and will continue hating everything to do with using computers for work the rest of their lives.

I'm talking about old ass IBM's with CRT monitors running Windows NT, until FINALLY being upgraded to Windows 2000 around 2005 or so. The actual Windows desktop was in some way disabled, so all we saw was a heavily locked down gray startbar (ugh!), with a blue background, and that was it, you saved to your personal drive on the server.

As many functions as possible were disabled, "oh, we cant have the children slacking off!", so what did we do? We spent all our time finding out what was left, ways to tie into the inbuilt messaging system, in some way manually writing little scripts to send a message to a designated computer, you'd open the file in Notepad, look around the room and count computers, "ok, so Jimmy is sitting one, two, three, four.......FIVE computers down, so thats CR23", you'd type in what you HOPED was the correct computer ID, save the file and then "run" it. A second later, a Windows prompt box would pop up on that computer, do be dismissed with an "ok" button. "I think you're fat and smell bad, ha ha!", "hey, lets skip Science next period" etc, poetry it was not!

When I left in 2005, we were still expected to save on school floppy discs, you know, because floppy discs were not exactly a household item in 2005! ;-) Being a nerd, I had a personal 128MB flash drive which I'd saved up to buy, and other students hated me for using it. One class involved my "special" group having to burn a CD, using the single computer with a 1X CD Writer.......it took literally the best part of an hour, to copy over ~600MB.

Have some damn faith in students! Work *with* them, not against, dont treat them like convicted murderers (I'd also be in favour of rehabilitative work in prisons, treating everyone with respect, but thats another story).

Yes, the computers have since been updated somewhat, but they are no doubt still a joke compared to what most students use at home. Some schools in my area are using iPads, handed out to every student, and they seem to be very successful. The was a trial of multiple devices, notebooks, netbooks etc, and the iPad won for ease of use, battery life, cost, "coolness" *and* usability.

We are days away from 2012, every student has an entry level smartphone, an iPod, perhaps an iPad at home. They have gaming consoles, they use Skype, they use iTunes, YouTube.....so why plonk them down at some ancient, yellowing beige plastic box, with a frigging ball mouse connected via Serial, and do everything you can to make school work miserable?

The best teachers in the world cant work well with crap tools, would the janitors want to only have access to toothbrushes? Its not a matter of "blowing out the budget" on every student, but christ, cant they at least have *functioning* computers, perhaps allowed to use their own netbook/iPad, for schools to have lease programs on standardised netbooks/iPads (including 3G access) for X dollars a week?

Many of the school computers we were expected to use were broken, and the "working" machines were usually vandalised in anger, once a kid booted out of the best school in the area was introduced to "the resident nerds". Within a week, the kid had bought "napalm" to school in an ice cream container, had lobotomized several ancient computers of their hard drives and CPU's, and that left our class with even fewer working machines.

Who you want to teach in this environment? Each hour, to tell the same nonsense to a new class, "ok, we're missing some decade old computers, so share with your neighbours", to have *three* people watching one flickering old CRT, while Excel spreadsheets were used, and classes ending in "ok everyone, turn out your pockets, someones been stealing mouseballs again" ?

"Technology aids"

[ToddInSF]

If the tech being used isn't properly managed, then it's going to be a problem.

So, yeah, some school districts are better off without iPads, because they can't do ANYTHING right.

Other districts will excel, because they have realistic expectations, and properly managed systems.

It really is that simple, it isn't an issue of "is technology bad for Our Kids".

Western myth...

[blahplusplus]

... of progress. The whole idea you can just 'educate' people who have various abilities and traits due to human bio diversity is a bit ludicrous. The real issue is that everyone is in denial that we've made a society that out-strips the average human beings ability to deal with it. So we see the explosion of depression and a denigration of intellectual culture in pop culture because - people want things they can manage without suffocating themselves or their enjoyment of life. They want to enjoy life before they are dead.

Most people end up being wage slaves in our modern capitalist society at boring soul killing jobs. We've made a society that is for all intents and purposes centered around the puritan concept of 'work is good', 'play is lazyness/bad'. People are limited beings and not machines.

I submit it's because the enlightenment's view of the universe as a machine mixed in with american protestants cult of the 'work ethic' has made a deeply anti-human society where everyone just wants to escape drudgery to get those things that nourish their enjoyment of life outside of the anti-human grind of work and toil we all face daily.

The enlightenment was wrong about human reasoning and many ideologies descended from the enlightenment are riddled with erroneous thinking, especially in regards to the way modern society is structured.

http://bit.ly/dYaWUc

Mini-Games

[Anon8---)]

There are hundreds, thousands maybe millions of mini-games out there. I believe what you need are mini-games for different areas of education, that will help students use what they are learning and understand what it's good for.

For example a physics game that has objects which all have standard properties and which are put into different situations. Easiest one could be you have the ground with a gravity constant (maybe the earth's or the moon's), a propulsive device with a customizable force, an object with properties like weight, size, etc. Goal is to input a formula that uses the right properties and that let's the ball fly into a target.

I find it would be especially helpful in math to see the applications of that you're learning.

So yes, if done properly e-learning is a viable and valuable option.

Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

...Duh. Kids are, as it turns out, kids. Film at 11.

home schooling

[Anonymous Coward]

It can be done as long as there is a responsible parent or guardian to monitor the child's studies and progress.

The Carpenter knows less about the tools than...

[Dharkfiber]

the apprentice. The problem here is that the children have it right. The best way to learn through electronic means is to 'gamify' it. You can build your class to be very much like an IT project. This means you can give a clear objective but allow them many ways to the end point, but ultimately, through a points/milestones/leveling system, you can have them accomplish a task. The other thing the kids (and IT people know) is that you must allow some. cyber-loafing for some creative and personal exploration. If you want this to be useful, the teacher must make it a way for the kids to have fun and stay within the bounds of the classroom. I say this be because my sister-in-law in Katy Texas is already doing this in her classroom with a positive feedback loop in progress.

Kids ALWAYS want to learn ...

[guus_deleeuw]

I think it doesn't really matter what tools you use. Kids always want to learn, but it has to on subjects they are interested in or that fit into their world (not yours). The same is true for adults, by the way. We're wired to learn, but only what we need. If you want somebody to learn something other you have to bend their interest slowly (so you don't lose them) towards the topics you want. For some that may go fast for others it may take years. Computers are an excellent way to provide individualized education, but it needs to be tailored for each student. And that is the problem, it's easy to give every student an iPad, but very difficult to give him/her the contents he/she needs. So usually it stops with giving the iPad. And that doesn't work, surprise, surprise. Like everywhere in society nowadays people want a quick fix. If that doesn't work they try another quick fix. But that doesn't work with a long-term goal like education.

Your doing it wrong!

[LoRdTAW]

I honestly don't understand this big push towards expensive electronic "learning aids" in the class room. They are just handed out with the magic notion that they will somehow help a student learn better. The problem I have with computers/tablets in the class room is simple. First, they are shoe-horned into the existing class room to supplement text books or note books. That is the wrong approach and is doomed to fail. Why? Because today's teacher is teaching using the same methods they have for centuries. The classic teaching method is what our parents, grand parents and great grand parents went through. You sit while a teacher recites a lesson, and take notes. Its not a real interactive lesson. Its almost static with the slight chance that there might be a discussion but that rarely happens. Typically the teacher drones on for about an hour on a particular subject while students write down notes. Now introduce a tablet into that environment, what happens? Its simple, the tablet now becomes a distraction to the droning of the teacher. Why? Because it sure beats sitting there writing notes about something that a kid does not care about. The average 13 yo today doesn't really give a shit about the revolutionary war algebra or frog guts, they want to play with their friends or play video games. Put a tablet in front of them and they have two choices, play games or take boring notes. What do you think they will do?

If they want tablets to succeed they have to reinvent the classroom teaching methods to match the technology. Note taking is static, why force a student to write down notes when they are fully aware that electronic devices can download stuff. Throw note taking in the trash, it does not belong in the electronic classroom. The lessons should be "pre-compiled" and when a student walks into biology 101, there should be a lesson ready to download onto the students tablet. The content should be pushed so the student has no choice but to see the lesson, they can go back if necessary but for all intents and purposes, the content should be static unless an interactive lesson is necessary. It could be a web page so its easy to distribute and access from home. What the teacher has on the "black board" should also be on the students tablet. If the teacher writes something down, it should pop up on the tablet for the student to take home.

Home work, Quizes and testing should also be done electronically using the same device. Teachers could very quickly grade home work, tests and quizzes that are in electronic form (multiple choice questions are the devil but could be automatically graded as soon as it is submitted.) The lesson from that day is available for the student to research and answer homework questions or write papers. Text books should be web pages or better, a wiki so a student can easily search for the relative subject matter.

Immerse the student in the lesson! Throw some animations or video clips in if possible. A quiz can be snuck into a lesson by introducing a question at certain points during a lesson with a time limit. Example: your teaching kids about geography (a subject that Americans are lacking in). Say you are showing them a map of Europe and are naming some of its countries. As the teacher is going over the countries, their teaching app will highlight the country on the students app. Then after 10 minutes the country names are removed and the students are asked to tap on Belarus. Give them just 10 to 20 seconds to make their choice. Students who have not responded in the time allotted can them be flagged as possibly having problems learning or paying attention. As long as you keep their eyes on the lesson, they should be able to answer quick questions. And present a few questions throughout the lesson. Lessons like this will keep kids in focus. And tablets can bring the lesson strait to the student There should be no worrying whether junior in the back of the class room can see the black board or not. Maybe my example is crappy but it gives you an idea of how the lesson should be i

Think differently (and teach differently too!)

[WileyC]

All the technology COULD work better, but not the way it's being used now. You can't throw one of the coolest toys around at kids and say, "Okay, now only use this for schoolwork."

My wife's a teacher and I'm a tech guy and we are both passionate about this subject (pros and cons). Here's how an effective model could work:

1) Lock out almost ALL functionality during school hours. Specific functionality (perhaps to research a paper online) could be enabled on a 'as needed' basis.
2) Make teacher monitoring of usage integral to the 'in school' experience.
3) Offload rote activities (on the devices) to homework and have automatic tracking and reporting of usage for (perhaps) automated evaluation/grading.
4) Only use technology in-class for things that are enhanced by the technology (quizzes/test with automatic grading...heck yes!).

You notice that turns pads on the school grounds into basically glorified e-books+pencil+paper. This is the RIGHT answer... for now. Sure, some novel apps will be invented that could enhance certain topics but the vast majority of those could be used as easily off-campus. School time should be about talking with the teacher and getting specific 1-on-1 help as necessary. And I can easily envision some fun stuff that could be done in a teacher-directed environment, but those programs haven't been invented yet.

E-Learning viable

[Don Philip]

E-learning is not only viable, but rapidly becoming essential. Many upgrading courses for adults, and these are becoming essential to any professional occupation, are conducted online. As a result, schools are going to have to teach children the skills needed to successfully work in online learning environments. It's no longer a frill, but as I say, an essential.

I am an instructor at a university in Canada, and I find it frustrating sometimes that I have 3rd- and 4th-year students who have never had any experience with online learning. It makes my job more difficult when I have to teach basic skills instead of the courses I am supposed to be teaching.

I currently run my courses in a hybrid manner, part traditional, and part online. This allows the students to feel comfortable with the traditional part of the course, and makes the online portion less intimidating. Here's a link to a paper I recently wrote about my class, and which describes the approach I take. The same approach with hybrid classes and software has been used in elementary and secondary schools.

The real problem with technology in schools is not the technology itself, but a lack of clear pedagogy on the part of the teacher. Just throwing technology into a class and waiting for a miracle to happen is ineffective. The teacher should decide which technologies support their teaching objectives and use those. The UNESCO Towards Knowledge Societies report (2005) states,

"Teacher training must therefore extend beyond the bounds of competency in a particular discipline and must include, as components in their own right, training in the new technologies and study of the ways and means of stimulating the students’ motivation and personal commitment. What they will need to learn, then, is not so much a technical skill as the ability to choose from among the increasingly abundant array of teaching and other software and educational programmes on offer, those that are most appropriate. Face-to-face tuition to learners, remains nonetheless essential in basic education. " (pp. 82-83)

Reference:

UNESCO. (2005). Towards Knowledge Societies. UNESCO World Report (p. 220). Paris: UNESCO Publishing.

Don't blame women's lib.

[ResidentSourcerer]

I disagree. Many of the teachers in the current system are reasonably smart, and talented. However:

A: Streaming. Put the behaviour problems in the classroom with the normal kids. Put the genuinely stupid, the spinal bifida kids, the Fetal Alchohol kids in the classroom. Don't give the teachers any help dealing with them.

B: The parent is always right. Teachers can't keep kids after school if they act out. My sister in law got raked over the coals for keeping a grade 4 girl in over lunch break for 10 minutes to talk to her about her behaviour.

***

Addressing the original topic of this post.

Smart boards have their place. So do computers. Educational software generally sucks golf balls through a garden hose. But internet access beats the hell out of a school library with 6 30 year old sets of encyclopedias.

So far there is no good reader program I've run into that allows you to easily bookmark and annotate multiple books, and switch easily between them.

There is no good intuitive math entry software program I've run into that allows you to type math as fast as a pencil.

Drawback of E-Learning

[Anonymous Coward]

When I first heard of E-learning in the high school/Middle school, I thought it would be the perfect tool for advanced kids. Let them work through the material at their own pace. If they completed all the subjects to graduate in say, 12 months, terrific, get them into college and on with their life.

Sadly, this isn't what is happening. In many places, California for example, Teachers unions have forced things into the contracts that prevent improvements in E-learning from doing anything to affect the number of teachers in the work place

If 10% of your student body is self-paced and graduates early, they don't need as many teachers. Unions are trying to prevent this

What this has led to in my State, is State-approved E-learning curriculum is hobbled. It contains a lot of busywork to force the students to spend as much time working on the material as if they were in a real classroom. They are tied to strict schedules of when they can test and are prevented from finishing a course early. If a course is scheduled for 6 weeks, by golly, you are going to finish it in 6 weeks and no sooner. Even if they have no questions, they are required to submit at least 2 questions, daily, to the classroom forum so that the teacher has questions to answer. They are required to comment on the questions of at least 4 other students ever week. At least once every two weeks, they are required to attend a one hour live, video, question and answer session with the teacher.

My son did it for two days and quit. He is a straight A student and perfectly capable of completing the required material in the class in a short amount of time, but the amount of busy work and forced interaction with other people "To create a learning environment" ticked him off. He would rather attend a traditional classroom where he can get his homework done while the teacher is talking and have his free time at home uninterrupted.

Salvation or sedation - join the dialog

[wallydallas]

Technology often sedates students and harms learning. Without excellent planing and implementation it decays into chaos or becomes masked as success because child and adult learners show fewer negative symptoms. Should we be following the lead of parents who install screens in the minivan?

Please join me. I'm researching technology and education. Does the prize of technology hide the punishment? More screen time and web only courses are not really building learing or relationships. There's very little agreement that technology boosts k-12 state test scores, even if you believe in them.

Please read or help me edit this draft google document: Sedation or Salvation - Education & Technology

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1umIJ_XanBrF4PAvPiB6EGGCBQ1Jxilsy3MzrXnQvr8I/edit?authkey=CKGo06sE

There's a huge technology & education trade show that rivals the size and hype of macworld. The ISTE conference is full of people who ignore the pitfalls noted by such reports as "Let them eat data" and "Fools gold". I want to collect more research on all sides of this topic. Contact me if you or people you know are questioning the myths of technology in education.

my short bio: After working at Adobe & HP I managed IT for six years at a technology high school in San Francisco. ( the 2nd Cisco academy ) I've taught middle and high school for 6 years full time in low income schools. I was once a proponent of one-one computers and laptops, but I've now changed sides after my first hand experiences with the wide array of symptops ignored by most educators. This includes but is not limited to the massive costs, and quickly growing mounds of obsolete computers thrown out by schools.

Here's a great cartoon that says it all:
http://www.claybennett.com/images/archivetoons2/theaters.jpg

Technology can help...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Do technology aids help, or hinder, education? Is the idea that students can be home-schooled electronically realistic, or absurd?"

Technology can aid education, far better than any old paper solution! The problem is that the technology used MUST be locked down!

It is a natural habit for every person to get distracted, looking out the window day-dreaming, looking at your pretty neighbour in the next isle, etc. etc. If the technology used is not locked down and the user has a choice to look at something else, or do something else, they most likely will!

Tablet PC's would be a fantastic educational aid, but not with the current OS's that allow any and all apps to be run. Once they bring out an Education OS, which allows the teacher to control which app is running on each device, then great - no more distractions and more fun learning...

Nothing is good when implemented wrong

[Mondor]

You gave students iPads and thought that this is e-Learning? And now, when this tactics obviously failed, you are blaming e-Learning for your own failure.

For e-Learning to succeed, you need to have what is called LMS, or Learning Management System. e-Book is not e-Learning, iPad is neither. It's much more complex solution which has to be done right and tested on small group of best students before implemented in mass.

This article explains much better what e-Learning is: http://www.kirsanov.net/post/2011/12/23/Why-e-Learning-Is-Better.aspx

It will be when I am finished.

[GrantRobertson]

Warning: Shameless Self-Promotion ahead. But read it anyway.

The Distributable Educational Material Markup Language (DEMML) is both an XML format for marking up educational material in a highly structured yet incredibly flexible manner and a system for authenticating and distributing that content for independent or shared use throughout the world, even where there is no internet connection. This material is organized and classified to a degree never before attempted, using what turns out to be a rather simple system of encoding the hierarchical tree of all possible educational material right down to the paragraph - or even sentence - level. This allows anyone to easily contribute any amount of material to what will quickly grow to be a vast library of vetted content for all to use. In addition the format facilitates a new level of flexibility in computer based learning by allowing educators to specify what material the student should study while still allowing the student instant access to additional, alternative material as their needs require. Multiple different explanations or presentations can exist for any one fact within any very specific topic. This allows any student at any level to quickly find just the right explanation that helps them most efficiently understand the topic at hand.

To be clear, DEMML is not yet another Computer Based Training (CBT) system. Instead, it is a way of creating a library of educational material in a standardized format which all compatible CBT systems can instantly draw from, with no manual editing whatsoever. Existing CBT software can be modified slightly to make use of this content or modified even further to employ the rich functionality that only DEMML provides - facts, multiple alternate explanations, questions and answers, problems and solutions, multiple alternate explanations for each of those, prerequisites, etc., with very rich metadata about everything. Just as hyperlinking existed long before Tim Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web and HTML, CBT has been around a long time before DEMML. Before HTML all hyperlinking systems were proprietary and only worked within limited confines. Similarly, current CBT systems are all either proprietary systems or are relatively unavailable to the public. DEMML will be to CBT what HTML and WWW have been to hyperlinking. It will open up a world of possibilities by making education easily available to everyone, everywhere.

“Only when students can easily obtain and master all the material necessary for a course of study entirely on their own will they be free of the barriers that stand between them and knowledge. Only when everyone in the world has free and easy access to all the education they want or need will we be able to overcome the suffering created when the uneducated are left to fend for themselves against the unscrupulous.”

Learn more at www.demml.org

Remote learning

[Anonymous Coward]

Approximately 30 years ago I was asked to attend an IBM class and I was happy to go. I got there only to find out that the class was a lecture done remotely and you had buttons to ask questions. I doubted the set up but went through a day of lecture to see how it worked. To be blunt it didn't. I had many questions (so did the other students) but after a while of pressing the button and then getting a so so answer. I went to see the person in charge and explained that the course description did not mention the vital piece of information that it was a remotely taught class and I could not see spending the same amount for a remotely taught class as it was for a real person in the classroom. I then went on to critique the instructor as not answering questions fully. At the time the company was about 4 blocks away from the IBM ed center and went back to work. I caught my boss and explained to him the situation. I asked him if I should return to the class or drop out. He suggested that I drop out and we would find a class with a real instructor. The person in charge called me later the next day and said that IBM would not charge the company and in the future disclose the class was remotely done. From what little I heard over the next few months the classes were almost empty.

What I didn't explain at the beginning was that this was a highly technical class and it was the type of class that the instructor had to be able to see the class and get the feeling if the students were understanding subject being discussed. I have taught these type of classes and you have to be present to really get the feeling if the pupils were understanding the subject. You can only get the feeling by the expression on their faces if you are in the same room. The questions being asked are only part of the issue. Often when a student asks a question you can see nods of other students as to they were thinking of asking the same question. Sometimes the students are reticent in asking questions so it really is a combination.