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Kodak Sues HTC and Apple

alphadogg writes "Here we go again with mobile industry patent lawsuits: 'Struggling Eastman Kodak is alleging that Apple's and HTC's smartphones and tablets infringe on its digital imaging technology, and has filed a complaint and lawsuits with the U.S. International Trade Commission and the U.S. District Court for the Western District of New York. The complaint to the ITC claims that some of Apple's iPhones, iPads, and iPods, and HTC's smartphones and tablets, infringe Kodak patents related to technology for transmitting images. Kodak also alleges that HTC's smartphones infringe on a patent related to a method for previewing images, which is already the subject of pending actions against Apple.'"

23 of 177 comments (clear)

  1. Kodak's Future... by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Perhaps this gives us a clue about Kodakâ(TM)s future plans to be solvent: Patent Troll? They have already sued Apple and RIM recently...

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    1. Re:Kodak's Future... by jank1887 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      businessweek article doesn't really detail the patents in question. 'previewing an image'. was 'on a camera' the re-patent everything catchphrase that only Kodak thought of? after generating the image, it's a computer file. it's on a really poor computer. the computer displays the image on a screen, as has been done for decades. transmission of images? again, after generation, its a file. sending a file via some already established protocol shouldn't be patentable for some types of files.

      of course, I'm assuming it's all software, not hardware. If anyone knows the patents in question, it would be interesting to see the claims.

    2. Re:Kodak's Future... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Given that Kodak did substantial amounts of actually pioneering work in imaging(I'm sort of saddened that some bullshit about 'preview' was the best they could dredge up for some trolling) and then managed to do for digital cameras approximately what Xerox did for PCs, I suspect that shaking down the people who didn't reach deep into the mouth of victory and grasp hold of defeat will be what their patent portfolio ends up being used for...

      The thing that surprises me, a bit, about Kodak's fall from grace is that being a film titan, at their prime, involved substantial chemical manufacturing capacity and expertise. Was that non-transferrable to some other area of chemical production, or did they somehow get rid of their boring-but-solvent departments in some strange reorganization scheme? Same question would go for any departments involved in optics, industrial imaging, etc.

    3. Re:Kodak's Future... by alen · · Score: 4, Interesting

      the camera screens have smaller resolutions than the photo so you will need an algorithm to downgrade the image, that part is patentable. icloud does something similar where the photo stream images are lesser resolutions than the original. so i guess apple could have ripped them off if they used the same algorithm

    4. Re:Kodak's Future... by russotto · · Score: 4, Insightful

      the camera screens have smaller resolutions than the photo so you will need an algorithm to downgrade the image, that part is patentable

      Or would be, if downscaling algorithms hadn't been known for decades. Of course, if you write "downscaling...on a mobile device", that's a new patent. Then you can write dependent claims like
      "method of claim X, where the downscaling is nearest-neighbor interpolation"
      "method of claim X, where the downscaling is bilinear interpolation"
      "method of claim X, where different downscaling methods are used on the luma and chroma components"
      (stop me if you've heard all this before)

    5. Re:Kodak's Future... by delinear · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You say that as though coming up with good original ideas and bringing them to market is the easy bit. That's kind of what the whole patent process should be there to protect, otherwise it's almost always better to be second to market, let some other chump do all the costly research and development, then you just bring out a shinier version of their product based on initial feedback. Companies that come up with ideas and put them into production are far more useful than companies who have zero interest in bringing a product to market and just patent the patently obvious so they can reap the benefits in licensing deals/court cases.

    6. Re:Kodak's Future... by Asmodae · · Score: 5, Informative

      If I recall correctly it had more to do with some arbitrary and insane insistence on 'Consumer Imaging' being the business focus, which is why you got cheap consumer cameras (easy share), printer docs (with attempts to cash in on printer paper consumables), but little pro-sumer stuff, and the occasional/rare super high-end imagers/gear (like those used in telescopes, etc).

      This is also why they sold off/spun off their profitable medical imaging groups, chemicals group, and they've tried to get rid of their profitable Document Imaging group (high-end, high-speed document scanners) several times. They've been constantly trying to push themselves into the most difficult and price-competitive market possible, cheapo consumer cameras. I think the ultimate goal was to maintain some kind of grasp of the photo printing business as their cash cow with consumable manufacturing/selling. To be fair, they still do a good job printing pictures, but people don't really want/need to do that anymore with rare exceptions. And people that still do prints do it in-house or have local labs that do the work.

    7. Re:Kodak's Future... by WankerWeasel · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Fast Company had an article last month about Kodak saying just that. The only way they're holding on is to sue others. They haven't innovated in years. The article also talked about how this guy in their labs invented a device that allowed you to take a picture and see it on a TV screen. They looked at it and said, who would want to take a picture and store it digitally? Throw that in the pile with all the other ideas we aren't going to pursue. Here is the article: http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/161/photography-digital-tech

    8. Re:Kodak's Future... by Smurf · · Score: 4, Informative

      1920*1080 which is the highest consumer resolution available is around 2MP

      Apple's Thunderbolt Display (and the 27" Cinema Display before it) is 2560x1440.
      Dell's 27" U2711 has the same resolution (I think they may be using the same panel), and the 30" U3011 is 2560x1600.

      2560*1600 which is the highest resolution available for individual displays in the market is around 4MP

      The Eizo RadiForce LS560W is 3840x2160. The RX840 is 4096x2160. And although most people would not want a monochrome monitor, you can get them all the way to at least 4096x2560, like the GX1030. And that is just sticking to Eizo monitors, I didn't check other high end brands.

      I get your point, but your numbers are quite off

  2. No worries, Apple has an ace in the hole by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Apple recently patented "methods of extracting monetary compensation by engaging in litigation over patent rights."

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  3. Re:Heh... in the 90s... by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 3, Informative

    And the QuickTake 100 and 150 were both rebranded Kodak hardware.

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  4. Re:When you can't innovate, by demachina · · Score: 4, Informative

    Kodak has been pretty capable on the innovation front. They pretty much invented the digital camera. Their problem has been the business execution to make money off their innovation.

    Though of late they probably haven't been innovating so much. Their current CEO has made two failed attempts to become a printer company and a TV company which are two markets which are completely dominated by incumbents and they've been bleeding money throughout the attempt.

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  5. Re:Death Rattle by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Informative

    maybe they can drag down some of those who helped put them in this spot in the process

    I'm sorry, but only Kodak put Kodak into this spot ... they've staunchly refused/failed to move forward, have rested on their laurels while the industry changed around them ... and to be honest, they've made abysmally low quality consumer stuff for years.

    My wife's parents now have their second Kodak camera ... truthfully, it's a POS, but they don't use it much and is simple for them to use. We bought a photo printer that died in a few weeks. The one we returned it for died a few weeks after that. Utter garbage.

    I have no sympathy for Kodak. I mourned the loss of Kodachrome, but that was more nostalgia. Seriously, Kodak hasn't made anything of value in years ... and I currently own something like 5 or 6 cameras, so it's not like I'm not in the market for things you'd think they'd be making.

    This is just the dying throws of a company who has failed to remain relevant in a changing environment.

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  6. Re:Heh... in the 90s... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Funny

    Kodak is the Xerox of digital imaging.

  7. Re:When you can't innovate, by Nursie · · Score: 4, Funny

    The landlord says the rent is late, you may have to litigate

    Don't worry, Beeeeeeeee Happy....

  8. Re:Death Rattle by Grave · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I don't know, I'd bet Google would be willing to give Apple a run for their money on the Kodak patents, given the patent acquisition spree they've been on recently.

  9. Kodak is not a patent troll by voss · · Score: 3, Informative

    It invented most of the stuff, and it licenses its patents to most everyone(some 30 companies at last count including LG Electronics, Motorola, Samsung Electronics and Nokia ). It just wants Apple and HTC to pay up. I would recommend they do because having a nice friendly little Kodak license your patents is better than having
    a competitor acquire kodak. Also the company is using the patents in its own products.

    1. Re:Kodak is not a patent troll by arkane1234 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Are you seriously going to say (with a straight face, we'll have no giggling or chuckling) that transmitting a digital image by reading a configuration file to know where to put a file and then transmitting it to that location is considered innovative?
      Or how about previewing a picture? I mean.. these are ideas that were out since MS-DOS was around. Using the idea in another product is not innovation.

      If I invent a hovering wallet, do you think it's innovative if I patent how to open that wallet? It's the same kind of thing... so obvious.

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  10. Re:Death Rattle by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not true at all, not when you have so called 'anti-trust' legislation thrown against you by the government

    I've read that article ... and, quite honestly, it sounds like a legitimate applilcation of anti-trust legistlation ...

    Kodak also asked the Court to rule that the market for a single brand of a product or service -- such as its own replacement parts -- can never be a "market" for assessing monopoly behavior under the Sherman Act.

    "We disagree," Justice Blackmun said, adding that "the relevant market for antitrust purposes is determined by the choices available to Kodak equipment owners," who must use Kodak parts.

    That's like saying that I can't legally have someone else service my car because GM has forbade it. It's my property, and I can employ who I like to repair it. GM doesn't have the right to restrict that, and neither did Kodak

    The only thing we know for sure is that when government interferes with market, it causes failure.

    Blah blah blah ... corporations would fuck us all over if someone didn't keep an eye on them. Don't believe me? Go feed your children some melamine laced baby formula.

    The all wonderful free market is a philosophical ideal to some people ... to the rest of us, it's a mechanism which if not controlled will lead to horribly bad results. And, quite frankly, even with controls it does.

    But, I can tell that you kneel at the altar and think it's infallible ... so, whatever ... I completely disagree with you.

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  11. Re:"low quality" flatters them too much by gstoddart · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Kodak were so intent on protecting their film business they never took digicams seriously and ruined their own business by crippling their own cameras. They deserve to die, no-one killed them, it was suicide.

    I think the word you want is hubris.

    It wasn't suicide, it was stupidity and arrogance.

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  12. The only way that anything's going to get made... by forkfail · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... is to either tear down the patent system, or just allow monopolies/collusion.

    Because otherwise, the way things are going, nobody will be able to manufacture anything given this circle of choke holds we seem to have.

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  13. Re:Death Rattle by gstoddart · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In free market monopolies don't exist, only economies of scale, only companies that provide good product at good price, otherwise others enter the market with new ideas, tech and better prices.

    See, there never has been what you term a truly free market ... so anytime someone says that is how it works, I am forced to conclude you're telling me about your religion -- there's no proof of it, only your assertion. You believe it, but I don't believe for a minute it's the natural 'fact' you seem to.

    Name one market that has ever existed in the world that was truly free, and didn't more or less devolve into the strong screwing over the weak? There have always been governments and rules, and people have always tried to be the only game in town.

    I think your free market is a myth, and I think the lovely outcomes people ascribe to it are pure fantasy with no real evidence.

    What I do know is that governments interfere with private individuals making private decisions and they end up destroying the markets.

    What I know is that the markets are inherently flawed, don't produce the optimal results people like you claim they do, and would have been abused by people trying to gain the upper hand. And they always have.

    They don't naturally arrive at optimal solutions, the freedom to choose with good information never materializes, and some greedy bastard will always lie, cheat, steal, and resort to violence to gain an upper hand ... but you seem to think that's the optimal method of how such things work.

    Me, I think it's just glorified anarchy that's been elevated to a status where people worship it as if it was the most morally perfect outcome we could ever hope for -- if you apply the morality of a free market to a society, you get a very bleak future of selfish behavior and sacrificing every body else for your own gain. 'Enlightened self interest' translates into "fuck everyone else, give me mine".

    Of-course governments created the moral hazard by removing legal liability from corporations

    That may be the only point we agree on ... of course, I don't think the solution is to remove the regulations. I think it's to remove the freedom from liability they enjoy now.

    If we magically went to an unregulated, free market tomorrow ... I'm betting it would take centuries (if at all) to reach any form of equilibrium in which the behavior of companies was regulated by the market. And, since no such economy has ever existed for that long, you will get the exact opposite results that people claim that system would produce.

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  14. Re:Death Rattle by gstoddart · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Take the banking fiasco. FDIC! Federal insurance that says that if you put your money in the bank we guarantee that you are not going to lose it.
    Take away that insurance and people are going to behave differently.
    With it banks can not compete on safety. They can only compete on rates and free stuff. Is it surprising what we got?
    Without the FDIC banks could compete on safety of your money. Those that do not want safety can not have it.

    And your lack of understanding of why FDIC exists in the first place doesn't make you correct.

    See, after the Great Depression when banks basically gambled away the money people deposited, people figured out that without some controls and regulations, it would just happen again.

    Unfortunately, starting with Reagan and going forward, people gradually removed the regulations on the banking industry. So, the junk debt which got passed off as AAA became everyone else's problem -- not just the people who had knowingly given risky debt.

    So, the exact same market failure occurred in the 30's as recently .... an unregulated banking industry is basically a ponzi scheme, precisely because all the market is interested in doing is maximizing short term profit, and making sure other people carry the risk. It is just an incentive to rip people off -- essentially the whole world paid for a bunch of greedy American banks to foist off their bad debt while pretending it was secured/safe debt. It was essentially like kiting checks, only on a global scale.

    A free market would never create a safer banking system ... you believe that, I'm sure ... but there is no actual evidence to believe that this wonderful unicorn you think of as the market arrives at good solutions. In fact, it's hard not to reach the opposite conclusion.

    Citing an example of why the regulations were put there in the first place, and showing why the removal of them led to the same abysmal failure isn't successfully defending your point ... it's using an example of failure to attempt to prove something else. That's like saying that murder laws don't serve any purpose, and then showing the murder rate would go up if you didn't have a law against it.

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