Slashdot Mirror
New Hampshire Passes 'Open Source Bill'
Plugh writes "In a victory for transparency and openness in government, and saving tax dollars, New Hampshire has passed HB418. State agencies are now required by law to consider open source software when acquiring software, and to promote the use of open data formats."
And just how much consideration is required? "Yeah, we looked at it but didn't trust it, so it was immediately discarded" is technically a consideration.
"Didn't meet our requirements."
With that statement, any choice can be made. It is impossible to legislate what people "should" do, particularly when dealing with large bureaucracies.
Advice: on VPS providers
It's interesting to see how a government defines what "open source" means. Some of the wording might actually restrict certain packages, for example:
As a professional open source developer myself, I have to admit that documentation isn't often a strong point of open source, and internal file formats are no exception.
There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
How is it "nanny-state" that the legislature are requiring state offices to consider open source? They aren't requiring it of the citizens.
ctrl-c, ctrl-v
ctrl-c, ctrl-v
ctrl-c, ctrl-v ...
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
So, if you're NH IT, pre-law, you do due diligence when selecting software, and don't pick open source because it doesn't do what you need.
Post-law, if you're NH IT, you do due diligence when selecting software, and don't pick open source because it doesn't do what you need. Then you do a few rounds with state attorneys (probably writing a useless white paper along the way) to make sure you're in compliance with the law.
How exactly does that save money? And when did slashdot start liking lawyers so much?
The entity is forcing itself to do something. The government wants the government to do something. It's hardly what you're implying.
How about we just get rid of government and let everyone decide what to do with their own goddamn money.
Because most of us like having things like sewage systems, streets, and someone to get the drunk drivers off the roads. Of course, with no roads, I guess the drunk drivers wouldn't be a problem.
And if you think people would band together to pay for basic infrastructure without any government-style coordination, you're out of your mind.
Open source is great. I use it for all kinds of things, but I don't have much faith that government can make it work to anyone's benefit.
Why not? They make proprietary software work for people's benefit. What's so different about open source software?
Let people keep their earnings and decide what solutions are best for themselves.
Most people would be more concerned about basic security than software solutions if you were to remove the government.
Otherwise, you might as well just have them at least support real business that actually employs someone.
Government is real business. Seriously. They provide services for their customers in exchange for money. Sure, the people who receive services and the people who pay aren't necessarily the same people (i.e. I pay road tax, but my street hasn't been repaved since it was built in the 1930s, since apparently no one knows how to rebrick a #*$%ing street anymore), but the concept is the same. You even get to vote for the officers, which is more than an shareholder does.
The government employs people, just like a business. It pays those people in real, actual money - which is more than many business do, what with stock options and whatnot. Government can't run without government employees. Those employees are regular people, just like you and me. I've met quite a few very competent sysadmins who were GS rated government employees.
Get rid of the government, and you'll find yourself needing to solve a lot of problems. Every solution to those problems will evolve into government. It's the way of the world. Don't like it? Build a shack in the middle of Idaho and live off the land.
Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
I've literally never seen any non-trivial problems with word docs when I open them in OO or LO, despite reading horror stories like yours. Could you post a link to a word document that gets "mangled to the point of unusability" by OO?
The main difference with government, is that there is no correlation between the work they perform, and the money they receive. Most of the people who suggest doing away with government are frustrated by this. For instance, my state government recently spent 10 million dollars on a failed infrastructure project. If companies were mismanaged as badly as my state government, they would have been sued out of existence by their share-holders, and failed to generated any profit. But because it's government, it can just keep taking its tithe and doing diddly, as long as it's prepared to split it's pay-out with the other party in the running whenever people get sick of it.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
I'll answer any questions people have about the bill... post comments below.
This will be the FIRST Open Source and Open Data bill in any of the 50 states.
I'm very happy... And yes, I'm a geek. I've got a slashdot UID of 5 digits, have contributed to the Linux kernel and other project, tech edited a book on Drupal, and been doing techy things for over 25 years now...
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
Considering that I'm a libertarian (and member of the Free State Project, so not just a iffy libertarian, but one who packed up and moved his life to New Hampshire, and eventually ran for office, won, and got this legislation passed...), this is FAR from Nanny-State.
Government needs to be accountable on how taxpayer money is spent. Individuals can buy whatever they like, but I want the system to buy only the best choice for the least money, and if open source is considered, it'll often win. Not always, but more than it does now. (NH does use some open source now... FYI, including Apache webservers, for example, for some things)
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
Havent we had enough of this nanny-state rubbish? Affirmative action for software... Political correctness gone mad.
You haven't seen anything yet!
While I believe in a smaller government and "letting everyone decide what to do with their own goddamn money," the 'big red button to end government' doesn't exist. So what to do NOW?
I moved to NH, and work for smaller and more transparent government. I'm an elected State Representative, and bring my principles to the State House, and get stuff like this bill done. And I get paid $100 a year for doing so. Yes, $100 a year. Not $100k, $100 dollars in total.
So I'm not doing it for power, or for money, I'm doing it because it's the right thing to do.
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
Uh... yes, it is necessarily free choice. At least, in as much as collective organizations ever engage in free choice. This "entity" that is being "forced" is also the entity that is forcing.
Ever run a marathon? Well.. you probably haven't, but maybe. But I guarantee you that your legs will not want to finish a marathon. Your mind may want to and "forces" the legs to do it anyway. No one would argue that free choice is being rescinded because you forced your legs to keep running.
I've got a slashdot UID of 5 digits, have contributed to the Linux kernel and other project, tech edited a book on Drupal, and been doing techy things for over 25 years now...
But have you ever (and I'm quite serious about this) worked on a government project where acquisitions are made, to understand the kind of "We'll get what we want, it's just a matter of the right amount of paperwork" shenanigans that go on? And as such, do you honestly think the CIO of any agency will actually care?
I'm also curious -- the legislation that others quoted doesn't make any mention of the size of the acquisition. Does this mean that every credit card purchase of software will require such justification to be sent to the CIO? And if so, do you honestly expect anything other than copy and paste boilerplate explanations that will be so numerous and repetitive as to be essentially meaningless?
Perhaps those issues are addressed, but to be honest, it seems like one of those "sounds like a great idea" measures that will increase the amount of paperwork that people have to get their jobs done, and at best will only provide some technical person a little bit of fodder to demonstrate to management that his suggestion to use some sort of free software to accomplish the task isn't completely off the mark.
I've been (currently 'iffy', passively-)interested in the free state project, and NH in particular. So if I'm reading what you said properly, that you're one of the officials who voted for this legislation, maybe you can tell me:
Are we talking empty-headed randroid anarco-capitialist type "libertarians," or the sane "don't mess with people who aren't messing with you" brand?
Open Source software can be astonishingly good (Handbrake, LibreOffice, Latex, Gimp, the list goes on...), but forcing a government to consider OSS over established, albeit proprietary, standards will only end in disaster. So say, for example, LibreOffice gets chosen over MS Office, 10 years pass and the LibreOffice project dies/forks (as has happened with so many OSS projects) and MS no longer exists (this is a fantasy, after all). Now we have a government using a possibly orphaned, obscure, 'open', word processing tool. Great. Does the government now maintain this software...is that still open? It won't be free, 'cause now your contracting someone to build/maintain it. Since I've seen Commercial software go this way in government, I see no reason why OSS projects wouldn't too. The measure of Perpetuity and Access is not cost or (gasp!) proprietary formats, it is perpetuity and access. Period.
The problem with community developer projects is not quality, cost, or even timeliness...its responsibility, which is ALWAYS the users in OSS projects. This legislation makes the government responsible for its own software (itself an interesting idea), but would probably not lead to the Open Source Paradise many here imagine. It may lead to bizarre end-of-life software outcomes and will irritate and delay countless government employees who don't care about software but do want to get something done. I would think government adopting Common Open Data formats and selecting the software based on performance makes more sense.
You seem to be under the impression that if the government stops providing some services then those services won't be provided by other institutions. This is certainly _not_ true for all government activity.
Some services, yes. Not all. I'm well aware there are portions of the government that could be privatized successfully.
You seem to be under the impression that other institutions would provide all useful services provided by the government. That's certainly not true as well.
The idea that streets would not be built if it were not by the government is ridiculous.
Your street maybe. I'm probably the second wealthiest person on my street, only after a guy who inherited his mother's slumlord properties. I bring in around $2k/month. My street would be a loss.
Street maintenance could certainly be privatized, but someone has to hire and pay the company to do it, and someone has to make sure the poorer areas are maintained. Only a government is capable of this.
I'm not a hardcore socialist. I don't believe the government should own and control industry, outside of necessary regulatory duties (i.e. keep lead paint out of our food, make sure 1lb is really 1lb, etc.). I do believe the government is required to act in places where capitalism fails. Basic public infrastructure is one of those places.
The key difference between a government and a regular business is that a government extracts payment under the threat of violence, or in some cases, by using actual violence.
Companies would do the same if they were not prevented from doing so (by - you guessed it - the government). The government is a company who has a monopoly on violence against the populace.
I once lived somewhere where the electric and gas services were provided by a private company. If I didn't pay, I was under the threat of freezing to death in the winter. I don't see much difference.
Also, a share holder in a public company can trade his shares if he does not like how the company is run.
And you can squat in a shack in Idaho. Or you can move to somewhere where there is no government, like Somalia. Have fun with that.
Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
Excellent. Government should be required to save every penny it can. The efficient use of government money is a goal worth pursuing. Another worthy cause is _preventing_ government from taking too much money in the first place.
I agree with you. Checks and balances aren't perfect.
There is no perfect system, and I certainly don't claim government is perfect. My point is that I can't see a better system that wouldn't involve government.
Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
Some of both... and every shade between, and some new flavors you have heard of... like female libertarians... yes, they exist, really.
Come visit NH, meet all kinds of folks, and see for yourself.
Feb 23-26th: http://freestateproject.org/libertyforum
In June: http://freestateproject.org/content/porcfest
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
I Just wish they could do all that without the multi-trillion dollar price tag. I don't hate government I just hate most of ours.
I want this account deleted.
Can you move to Wisconsin and run for governor?
We have the best government that money can buy.
No, you don't understand the bill...
It doesn't REQUIRE them to use Open Source over other solutions, but to consider it, using cost benefits answers. And all of your objections are moot then, since this bill essentially DOES what you want it to do: "government adopting Common Open Data formats and selecting the software based on performance makes more sense." (performance and price = total cost benefit analysis, right?)
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
The CIO of NH (ie the Commission of NH DOIT) supported this legislation, because it will enable them to track and review purchases for EXACTLY that sort of reason. And in State Government, nothing is ever 'credit card purchase' of software, or shouldn't be.
So I'll reverse the question to you: Have you ever worked at State Government?
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
The key difference between a government and a regular business is that a government extracts payment under the threat of violence, or in some cases, by using actual violence.
Yes, of course. And without the government to stop them, there's no way the now unchained private business would ever think of using violence...
Or am I in a parallel universe where, say, the whole 19th century never happened?
No, NH is much nicer. Come visit us!
I was in Wisconsin last year, for a 10th anniversary party celebrating Neil Gaiman's American Gods novel, at House on the Rock. Neil was dressed as Doctor Who (4th Doctor), I was dressed as a Neil Gaiman audio book. Fun times were had by all.
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
Seriously, I live in New Hampshire, and I emailed RMS about this bill last year. He said that if the bill called it Free Software instead of Open Source, he'd get behind it.
I think a state government is well within its rights to dictate how best to save and spend its money. If a person works for a state government he or she is agreeing to work within the confines dictated by government policy. Similarly, a corporate IT department dictates what can and cannot be run on its network. Are you suggesting that an employee should be free to make those decisions without regard to what corporate or government policy dictates?
Besides that, the NH legislature isn't telling government offices that they are required to use OSS. It is telling them to consider it as part of the decision-making process in order to best evaluate the options in order to find the most cost-effective choice. Your argument is off-target.
Some of both... and every shade between
That's a little worrisome, I have to admit, depending on the distribution. :) I'm not sure a Meet-n-greet will answer most of the questions, like the FSP web site, it seems mostly to read like a travel brochure with a lot of "liberty" talk sprinkled liberally (No pun intended) throughout the text. No offense to them, but after the past 16 years, you'll have to pardon my wariness. Still, I suppose a bit of poking around isn't out of the question. And, I will admit, an elected official with a 5-digit slashdot UID is an intriguing possibility...
So I'll reverse the question to you: Have you ever worked at State Government?
No, I have existed solely at the Federal level, although from what I can gather by friends who have and do work in state government, it's not all that different, at least in my state (MD).
I'm surprised that there aren't any provisions for small-value credit card purchases that can be approved at a lower level. *shrug*
I really do hope it works out well, in all sincerity. I have my doubts, but like R2D2, I have been known to make mistakes... from time to time...
In addition, to the links from the parent post, there is a pretty good documentary about the FSP. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEPLUQNwU6w Not really a cross section of all/most Free State Project participants but worth a watch. I am not an FSP participant, but I am glad they are here.....Even Seth ;)
--- Liberty in our Lifetime
Code Free or die;
("Live Free or Die" is the official motto of the U.S. state of New Hampshire, adopted by the state in 1945.)
First of all, thank you! :D :)
This seems like a great idea, and it's good to finally see a logical decision regarding technology in politics
Some are probably going to criticize here, but I'm definitely just glad to see bills of this nature instead of ones like SOPA.
A step in the right direction for sure, so the tech world thanks you
Perhaps those issues are addressed, but to be honest, it seems like one of those "sounds like a great idea" measures that will increase the amount of paperwork that people have to get their jobs done,
There does seem to be one potential advantage. If they go with open source, they don't have to fill out the paperwork, right? Seems like they shouldn't have to, anyway, since there's no point. If that's the case, call it a benefit that plays the lazy nature of your usual bureaucrat against themselves. You can get 10 machines running Fedora tomorrow, or you can file the paperwork to get your Windows boxes next month. Might make them think.
This is how to do things - beat the bureaucrats with their own damned paperwork.
Yeah, I'm visible for a split second in this... about 2 minutes in.
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
Follow link and down-vote. You will want to, unless your a cunt.
A couple of questions and a couple of comments
1. Is the CIO an appointed position, and who appoints the CIO?
2. How big is the IT budget for the state of New Hampshire?
3. Does this apply to projects that the state bids out for which software selection is a piece of the whole project? Meaning, if you issue an RFP for a large project, of which software is a component, does that trigger this evaluation of that component of the RFP? What happens when you have a half dozen responses to the RFP that do not suggest open source as a solution?
4. Was there much opposition to this bill, and what was the opposition based on?
Comments:
1. I see the third question there as the biggest obstacle. If a state agency simply wants to acquire a new piece of software, clearly open source would be considered. However, if the state wanted to issue an RFP for "the implementation and deployment of a new system to manage CHIP accounting reconciliation", then the responses are going to be a complicated mix of software and services. There's nothing to force third party vendors who are looking for state business to consider open source.
2. Your website in which you explain why you voted on things is outstanding. I wish my rep did that.
Your street maybe. I'm probably the second wealthiest person on my street, only after a guy who inherited his mother's slumlord properties. I bring in around $2k/month. My street would be a loss.
Sorry to hear that. But what you are saying is that, given your limited resources, you'd prefer to spend money in things other than improving the quality of your street. That is totally reasonable.
Street maintenance could certainly be privatized, but someone has to hire and pay the company to do it, and someone has to make sure the poorer areas are maintained. Only a government is capable of this.
Poorer areas don't have to be maintained. It would be nice if they were, but people might want to user their money for other things.
Companies would do the same if they were not prevented from doing so (by - you guessed it - the government). The government is a company who has a monopoly on violence against the populace.
Agreed. I believe this is the primary function of government, although I'd call it an enterprise instead of a company.
I once lived somewhere where the electric and gas services were provided by a private company. If I didn't pay, I was under the threat of freezing to death in the winter. I don't see much difference.
If you regard the company as violent for cutting your services, you'd have to regard your neighbors/friends/family/coworkers in the same way for not helping you pay the bill. Why are the gas company owners any more responsible for your wellbeing than your neighbor or your friend?
And you can squat in a shack in Idaho. Or you can move to somewhere where there is no government, like Somalia. Have fun with that.
I don't think I'd like Somalia at all...
Carly Fiona? Stephen Elop?
I seem to recall a fair few CEOs working for wholly private and "free market" corporations getting tidy sums for running their companies to the ground.
Do you have a twin brother we can steal for Canuckland?
Well, I helped build the current (and previous) version of the FSP website (It's running Drupal), and it's Meant to read like a travel brochure: come visit!
The 2 events are merely good times to meet lots of folks, here and from elsewhere, listen to speakers, hang out, and just see what happens.
But really visiting most anytime, you'll be able to meet lots of people. Coordinate a visit using the Facebook group or website forum (both is good, and often other related sites will help too), and pretty much any time of year, you will find people to give you a tour and answer questions, pre, during and post visit, and then help you to move easier (with info and advice, and often if you provide pizza and beer, emptying your truck of belonging into your new NH home. Pay it forward.)
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
And I'm NOT the only elected official with geek-cred. There are a small group of us. NH has 400 State Reps... so the geek crowd isn't just one or two...
One Rep has authored a number of Windows certification training books you might have on your shelf, for example.
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
Even if Google Chrome is prohibited, another company's respin of Chromium Browser isn't. That's the beauty of free software: you're free to hire anyone to make it work the way you want.
You didn't answer the question. Have you worked in the government?
You fail to see the scale of the nation we live in.
Seriously. I'm a truck driver. This country is _big_. We have the third largest population of any country in the world. We have the largest economy in the world. Trillions are certainly appropriate.
Even if you were to cut government services to the bone (by anyone this side of Ron Paul's definition*), you'd still have a multitrillion dollar budget. It's a big number. This is a big country.
Personally, I think it's a (mostly) non-issue. We've been in deficits before. You get those when you have a recession. The people screaming about it now are the same people who had no problem deficit spending during the Bush era. It's a political pony show. If people weren't so up in arms about this, they'd be up in arms about something else (maybe something important, like Obama's refusal to do away with the PATRIOT ACT and other nonsense).
* Ron Paul wants to slash the responsibilities of the federal government. This doesn't mean you keep more of your paycheck. You don't get something for free. The states would have to raise taxes to compensate by paying their own way (an example is highway funding, which is part federal and part state responsibility). You'd have to pay for what services you want that aren't government supplied out of your pocket. Spending would still be in the trillions.
Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
Reading quickly through the bill, seems pretty good; hope it works out. If nothing else I think it's a good start. I particularly liked the open data stuff; anyone who's had to deal with files through different versions of various word-manglers and such, or changing storage media, should appreciate it.
One thing that stood out, though: Why is the judiciary exempted?
The key difference between a government and a regular business is that a government extracts payment under the threat of violence, or in some cases, by using actual violence.
Yes, of course. And without the government to stop them, there's no way the now unchained private business would ever think of using violence...
Or am I in a parallel universe where, say, the whole 19th century never happened?
I didn't say that the government was not needed... Or that people would behave morally in its absence...
1) Yes, appointed, by the Governor, and approved by the NH Executive Council (essentially 5 lieutenant governors - unique system we have to check and balance the Governor).
2) total NH budget for 2012: $5,244,850,965 ($5.24 billion)
IT share of that: $67.5 million (roughly)
http://www.nh.gov/transparentnh/where-the-money-goes/index.htm
http://www.nh.gov/doit/internet/
3) Yes, and they don't have to submit open source as a solution, for example, but the requirements of open data still apply, for one thing, and for another, the total cost analysis will still have to happen... so an proposal submitted that didn't use open data, and used a proprietary solution would have to show that it was the only answer, and why it was cost effective, and couldn't meet the open data requirements. Remember that the principles are listed, and more specific guidelines for RFP and the like will be generated, by the CIO.
4) I tried (as a non-legislator) to get even a study of open source through in previous years. Killed it each time. This time, I was ready, I knew the opposition's issues, and had answers... plus Open Source is no longer a geek thing. People know Linux, Android, Google, etc. Opposition hinged on FUD mostly... It wasn't anything beyond that... So being able to address the usual FUD, and do education the entire time for non-geeks was the biggest factors needed.
comments: The Open Data elements are the key piece here. 3rd party vendors who fail to meet those are unlikely to get the business anyway. And no, this isn't perfect, nor will it guarantee open source is always the answer. Because it isn't. But it should put it on a level field for the first time.
And my website is SO outdated... I need to update hundreds of votes since. But thanks.
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
Of course the point is that if you use Microsoft Office and Microsoft goes bankrupt, then you're left with your documents in a closed, proprietary format (and even Microsoft's "open", "standard" format is pretty damn closed).
But if LibreOffice forks/dies, then your documents are in an open, documented, internationally recognised ISO-standard format.
Which documents would you rather attempt to recover.
Good eye.
In order to get the bill passed.
They are in the midst of rolling out an E-Court system, and they felt this would get in the way... and besides which it was a turf war (Legislative versus Judicial)
I wanted the bill to pass, so I said 'Ok, you guys are exempt'. Such is politics.
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
Actually, this is why the Secretary of State's office, via the State Archivist, came out in favor of the bill:
They have punch cards they legally must retain, and no way to read them. Data without the code/hardware to read it is useless, but we have to keep it all.
So the above is really true. Open formats are vital for data to be historically useful.
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
Those poor souls now sent off to Hell have none of the requirements:
1. Knowledge re experience with computer programming languages.
2. Knowledge or experience with electronic components, I.e. being able to solder the components on a motherboard.
3. Knowledge or experience with anything related to "Internet Technology" aka IT.
4. Knowledge or experience related to communicating complex thoughts, English language or grammatical composition structure such as contained in "Cantebury Tales"!
Such a proclamation as New Hampshire HB418 asks too much from its nobel citizenery as well as those of the United States of America, in the particular the Executive Office of the Pesident and Cabinet Offices and Legislature and Judiciary in that, the "language of the bill" is a foreign language and thus ... far removed ... from the knowledge or expertice of even the most knowledgable of citizenery of New Hampshire or the United States or America in their ability to comprehend both spoken and written English Language.
Seth, thank you for doing what you did. I'm not American, but I really appreciate you moving there, *and* winning.
testing out my trending skills
Proprietary 0 /throws confetti in the air...yippy weeeeee
Open Source 1
Sorry to hear that. But what you are saying is that, given your limited resources, you'd prefer to spend money in things other than improving the quality of your street. That is totally reasonable.
My street doesn't get improved (it was a WPA project from the 1930s - the city won't rebrick it for some reason, and they can't pave over the bricks because the historical society won't let them), but that's besides the point. If I were to go out and rebrick the part of the street I own, it wouldn't do any good for the part of street in front of the vacant lot two houses down, or the part in front of the old woman down the street who gets $300/month on social security.
The city, on the streets that it actually does improve, improves streets all at once, to the same quality, with the same materials. And no, there's no way the people on my street would come together on this. The old woman can't pay, the drug dealer across the street wouldn't be interested, the drunk dude on the corner would just want to start a fight, etc.
Poorer areas don't have to be maintained. It would be nice if they were, but people might want to user their money for other things.
Thus increasing the class disparity in this country. Think about the consequences of that kind of thinking for a while. Look at countries where it prevails.
Places like India, where some people make good money and live in nice houses, while other people literally live in dumps, recycling garbage to buy enough rice to stay alive. Places like Nigeria, where the population lives in squalor, except for the people making money hand over fist in the oil trade.
A large class disparity makes for a dissatisfied, bitter populace. That breeds security problems. I don't know about you, but I like not living behind a barbed wire fence.
If you regard the company as violent for cutting your services, you'd have to regard your neighbors/friends/family/coworkers in the same way for not helping you pay the bill. Why are the gas company owners any more responsible for your wellbeing than your neighbor or your friend?
I never said I regarded the company as violent, or that the company was somehow responsible for my well-being. I was pointing out that I would suffer potentially fatal consequences if I failed to pay my bill. Not paying taxes is actually safer - the most they'll do is garnish my wages or put me in jail.
I don't think I'd like Somalia at all...
Somalia is what happens when you have an ineffectual government. People are people - regardless of religion, culture, whatever - we as a group are greedy bastards who look after ourselves and those we care about first. We don't organize well, and when we do, it's usually as a special interest group or a mob.
To keep a people calm and peaceful, they have to be satisfied with their situation (or at least satisfied enough that they won't risk losing what they have). First, you need security - you have to feel safe in your home and about on your business. The government provides that. Next you need a standard of living that isn't disgraceful. Most people here have that - including most poor people. That's provided either by the government or by the economic system it supports. Next you need the people to feel they have some control over their lives. We have democracy and the government prevents most monopolies from forcing themselves on the populace.
When you don't have these things, the people don't stay peaceful. Where do gangs form in this country? Places where the standard of living is the lowest and security is lax.
This is out of order, but it shouldn't hurt the context:
Agreed. I believe this is the primary function of government, although I'd call it an enterprise instead of a company.
I believe the primary function of government is to fill in the spaces where capit
Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
No, but I've worked at a variety of companies with IT depts, and both created RFPs and proposals in response as a vendor.
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
I don't have a problem with you.
I have a problem with the fact a bill is even needed--it's straight up Problem, Reaction, Solution.
Common sense ought to be to use what gets the WORK DONE. The platform doesn't matter.
I have a problem with calling this "transparancy" also. There isn't a god damn thing transparent with government anymore.
The next thing I'll be hearing how fucking internet voting is a good thing. - it isn't, it's fucking domestic terrorism!
Doing techy things can both help and kill people. Lately techy things are KILLING people, DESTROYING the monetary system, and STEALING private information in DIRECT FUCKING OPPOSITION with the mother fucking US Constitution!!
But I repeat, I don't have a problem with you. Fire can both heat or turn everything to ash, it's all how it's used. God bless you for even having a fucking mind which can think outside the box.
Consider that New Hampshire's motto is Live Free or Die. They have never taken kindly to government regulation in the state of New Hampshire.
In the bill it provides a cost estimate. With a net positive effect, including this line, "The Department also estimates, based on a review of the FY 2012 and FY 2013 budget, state expenditures could decrease by approximately $300,000 in FY 2012 and each fiscal year thereafter through the implementation of open source software. "
There is a breakdown of the estimate for the cost part, broken down into possible new employees/time. Is there any breakdown of the estimated $300,000 in savings?
Awesome bill. How long have you been working on it?
My next question was about previous versions of the bill, (interested to see if there was an upstream health provision/contributing back), and it seems like the system does support that...
Unfortunately: http://www.nhliberty.org/bills/view/2012/HB418/2012-01-04
I love this line: "Go to Microsoft Product Support Services and perform a title search for the words HTTP and 404."
He claims to be a member of the NH congress. That's not the same view of government a middle level government employee would have, but it is part of the government, yes.
There is a Seth Cohn listed on the Wikipedia page for the New Hampshire House of Representatives. I'm assuming this is the same guy (otherwise it'd be pretty bizarre). In another post he said he was Libertarian, although Wikipedia lists him as a Republican.
He doesn't have his own Wikipedia page, but you can google for him as easy as I can if you want more info.
Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
One Rep has authored a number of Windows certification training books you might have on your shelf, for example.
No need to be insulting about it! (Just kidding.)
I'm poking around the FSP forums now to see if it looks reasonable to go through the trouble of the trip at all. You've certainly got some colorful types on there. :)
You're still off-target. You need to realize that the government is allowed to dictate the rules under which it operates. Or perhaps you'd consider that the ethics bill that the US Senate just passed is out of line because Congress shouldn't be regulating itself.
How the bleep did you get this thing passed? I'm imagining swarms of lobbyists emerging from the shadows, as soon as it appeared on their radar...
Don't let the forums scare you aware... all of the real people tend to be too busy to spend much time on the forums.
Facebook is slightly better (search for Free State Project group and page)
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
I'm a former Libertarian, and remain a libertarian (small l), and yes, I'm an elected Republican.
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
Actually, most lobbyists remain in the shadows. But you can smell them. NH has them, but it's far cleaner than most places. Lots of Reps (400), and we only pay $100 a year for Reps and Senators (24 of them), and we elect everyone every 2 years.
The best line of the entire fight was the one lobbyist in a subcommittee meeting who said "I think we can replace the entire bill with one line" as a way to try and kill the bill.
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
I get paid well by the gub'ment to write 100% LGPL software. =)
That net positive was the result of political work. This was originally 2 bills, one Open Source, one Open Data... Both bills had high price tags on them, and it was clear both were fairly bogus numbers (IMHO).
I removed language that caused some of the estimates, and got them to agree that the positions needed for one could be met by the 3 positions in the other bill, and that cost savings of $300k were a bare minimum. (Originally, due to 'Consider', not a requirement, the cost saving was $0, plus 10 people to implement...)
That $300k is a guesstimate and likely low.
So merge the 2 bills together, for a sum total of net neutral/positive, and get it passed in a year where we cut $1 billion dollars from the State Budget. If it was fiscally costing anything, it would have been toast.
There was no upstream/contributing back in previous bills, as I was careful to not add lots of requirements. This bill is like steering the rudder on a big ship that takes miles to turn.... so it's high principles, low on specifics. The specifics will come from the CIO, and his staff, who 'get it'
It's been over a year.... I submitted the bill Fall 2010, post election. Previous work in 2006 and 2008 to get even a study committee to look at Open Source in Government died quick deaths (I was not in the House, just an citizen activist) but all of that work and others taught me how the system works. So really, I've spent about 7 years or so learning how to get stuff like this done.
details: http://gencourt.state.nh.us/bill_status/bill_docket.aspx?lsr=741&sy=2012&sortoption=&txtsessionyear=2012&txtbillnumber=hb418&q=1
And HB310 was the OpenData bill that contained the original other half.
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
That doesn't sound good to me. The requirement for paper work should not be based on the price tag. It should be done no matter what to show the cost of the entire product, including the quality of it, and including the technical service required.
testing out my trending skills
I'll do that. And thanks for the reassurance. ;)
And one more thing. No more god damn graphic scanned PDF's. Put the plain ascii text into the DOCUMENT! Especially on CAFR docs. Out in california we couldn't even read our fuckin dox - until I bitched about it.
I've also noticed even more docs at saccounty.net that are those piece of worthless shit tif scanned pdf, you can't SEARCH or grep through them!!
WHAT THE FUCK!? They fixed some CAFR docs (Those one's I POINTED OUT) then left many of them in anarchy. (pdf is not just used in CAFR) Problem with PDF format is it IS ANARCHY!
They also love to use share point and it has errors until you repeat your search OVER AND OVER AND OVER.
The filenaming convention was RANDOM.
Someone on a dial up, would be COMPLETELY screwed trying to navigate what was currently happening say in the local city council tomorrow.
That's not transparancy, that's domestic terrorism.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
No search indexes of PDF files in Seperated Directories/Agencies in website layout. (ahh the better to hide that motherfuckin pdf in plain sight and have plausable deniability since you probably can't find it unless you know the filename, and google has cached the path to it!)
The use of motherfuckin GOOGLE as their website search engine--in some places! Seriously! What the fuck.
No alphabetical organization . .
No alpha-numeric organization . .
No attempt at all to name files anything meaningful - e.g. 2006 Comprehensive Annual Financial Report.pdf vs 08324883498alkdslkjasdj.pdf
Many people (officials, contractors, and others who can't be identified, with access to a confusing system, with questionable security . .
Yeah motherfuckers. SEE SOMETHING SAY SOMETHING.
I just SAID it.
Treason!
They are also connected to the ELITE GLOBALISTS right down to the local city council level.
TYPE IN
http://www.iclei.org/
click MEMBERS
display the fucking list you fucking retard or type your city name and search you fascist sockpuppets!
Yeah while your oath breaking officials use NED to spreads teh democracy, while you get entertained watching people like Lance Armstrong get punked by the Government for 20+ years, or Watching Lindsay or Paris. They could have been indicting banksters, or talking about how to replace all the damage after the default, but NOW.... Cause You did nothing all this time, WE are headed off the cliff. It won't be voting in Senators who will obey their oath of office and restore the US Constitution, regulate the monetary system, and either declare a fucking war or STOP this us constitution fucking psychopathic bullshit.
I withdraw my conscent.
if you call me terrorist, You are my mortal enemy
I served this nation USAF, that's my oath
No corrupt judge or piece of shit globalist p3wned senator will change that.
You can only kill me.
But I don't fear death.
Not really. New Hampshire is the closest thing you can get to a libertarian state. While this may give financial relief at times, what is essentially happening is extra government regulation. You forget that New Hampshire defies the federal government in regards seatbelt laws because they disagree with regulation. The voters didn't vote on this legislation, and it's not something you would expect from New Hampshire because it increases the very thing they're typically against, which is increased regulation.
They also care about cost, and transparency, and lots of other things. This is NOT regulation of indviduals, but only self-regulation...
And while I love NH, and it's the free-est of the 50 states, it's far from perfect, and it's not yet the closest thing you can get to a libertarian state, just the closest right now in the US.
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
How about a challenge?
If I can find an error on saccounty.net or I can find more tif scanned pdf's or if I can find more un-indexed, random filename pdfs.
Then SacCounty.Net FIRES it's entire IT Team.
How about that for a challenge Jerry Brown?
actually, my bill did have only buying proprietary with a a requirement for doing the analysis, at first... but I agree with you, and the final version is neutral: all purchases require a TCO report to compare apples to apples.
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
You just don't get it. They defy the Federal government seatbelt regulation, not themselves. New Hampshire citizens put their faith in the state to take care of the necessary bits (think infrastructure). Yes, they are as close to a true Libertarianism as any state has reached. However, they also recognize that government is there. If it weren't it wouldn't be Libertarianism. It would be Anarchy. Libertarianism is about freedom of individuals, not self-regulation of the government.
Carly Fiorina was given the boot from HP after what she did there. It remains to be seen what happens with Elop; he hasn't been there long, and it's not long enough to say if his strategy will work. Personally, I doubt it, but I'll wait till the results are in before I lynch him. Yes, CEOs often get inordinately large pay-packets, but at least they lose their job (albeit, often with a pretty penny) when they screw up. Political parties can't even lose their job except for every 4 years (depending on the electoral cycle where you are), and even then, there's usually only one other candidate. Chances are they'll keep it.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
So really, I've spent about 7 years or so learning how to get stuff like this done.
Pay attention to Seth here, folks. I was with him at the State House in 2006 when we tried and failed, and I testified for his bill as an open source entrepreneur this time around when we won.
Others have tried and failed to get something like this through. At least in the US, this is a prime and major success. You guys should be taking notes and seeking to replicate his success in your local jurisdictions.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Thanks. Yeah, 'politics'; I saw some of that years back at local level. Getting stuff done beats failed clean sweep.
Hope the court system works out well for y'all.
Belated congrats on the bill, btw; it's readable and seems well laid out.
It's the way of the world.
Just like slavery and female repression!
Get rid of the government, and you'll find yourself needing to solve a lot of problems.
Heaven forbid we work those things out. Governments only killed a half-billion people last century, that's not too high a price, is it?
my street hasn't been repaved since it was built in the 1930s
And you're against fee-for-service roads....
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
This bill is largely thanks to the Free State Project. The prime sponsor and one of the co-sponsors (Rep. Pratt) are both Free State Project participants who were recently elected to the State House.
Liberty in your lifetime
"In the Year of Our Lord ..."
Fucking Americans.
How exactly did you go about getting a bill like this passed? How do we expand it?
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
This is a good bill, and appears to be OSS done for the right reasons. Previous stories here about how governements in Portugal, Munich and Extremadura were just going Linux for price-tag reasons alone, but your bill seems to go into all the TCO ramifications.
I don't know if you've already mentioned it in the bill or not, but an added selling point of considering open-source would be built-in obsolecense proof software - if the original source code, as well as the tools needed to build it, are available, companies going out of business ain't gonna force a complete overhaul of the infrastructure.
In future, @ some point, it would also be good to have all software that uses Internet Protocols IPv6 compatible, so that the state doesn't find itself negatively impacted by the IPv4 address exhaustion.
Agreed, the arrogance is thick in government bureaucracies. EVERYTHING is political, nothing is done on merit or because it is the most efficient. It is really tiring to watch this day-in and day-out when you come from the business world or a non-profit where you had to make choices based solely on efficiency or merit. Having worked in one of these government environments I can safely say that any lifer (employee of ten years or more) is sucking down tax payer money, floating jobs to their friends, and trading favors on a constant basis. This reality is also openly talked about as these people feel immune from accountability.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Wouldn't storing them in Web standard formats, like XHTML/HTML, XML, etc be the way to go? As opposed to even formats like .doc, .xls and so on? Stuff defined by W3?
In such a case, such documents would be even more standards compliant
Isn't this one of the standard arguments made in 'The Cathedral & the Bazaar?'? If a project dies, its source code is still with the people who got the software, and they are free to continue working on it and custom develop it to suit their requirements. Yeah, the code would be orphaned, but the government could either get in-house programmers who could read that source code as well as the documentation, and work on any required improvements or bug fixes. And not just that - let's say a new computer platform is introduced from a vendor who passes their audit, which doesn't support legacy software, like Windows: in such a case, the source code could be used to compile the existing OSS code to the new platform, get all the data imported, and be off to the races.
I'd also argue that one of the reasons projects die is that nobody is interested in them b'cos beyond a point, if they have no customers, there's no reason to continue w/ the project. But in this sort of a case, let's say software project P gets bought into and used by a whole bunch of NH offices. Chances are more likely than not that they'd contract the developers of the project for maintenance (the same way people have service level agreements w/ MS or RH), and if developers are paid, they'd continue to work on that project, even if it becomes a single customer solution and thereby ends up becoming a custom solution for a single customer. The reason one sees forks go dead is that nobody is interested in their product and the developers do have to make their ends meet somewhere. In this case, where they have users who are willing to pay a reasonable amount for a service contract, chances of the project dying would be less likely. The IT offices too might just hire them to maintain the stuff on a full time basis, while the users focus on actually working off the databases.
Even if there was a Federal law that ALL government documents had to be saved in an open format it would still take 23 years for Human Resources employees to learn to read resumes ( CVs for the Britsish ) is something other than Microsoft Word.
I think it is either ironic or that Maddog's number plates have influenced this 8^).
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maddog)
Truly excellent stuff -- congratuwelldone!
Actually.. I might prefer a lot of the transfer of spending responsibility (and consequently tax revenues) from federal to state government.
Because that reduces a lot of the federal leverage to get state laws passed by dangling stuff like transportation and education funding in exchange for laws on the books. It also will decrease the number of federal pork projects. It'll still happen at both levels, of course, but those state projects will be within the state that funds them, at least.
Also.. it is easier to move to another state than another country if the one I'm living in starts spending on projects I don't believe in.
I am impressed; well done!
I read the bill (gasp!) and saw procedural mechanisms to encourage the adoption of open data and software... not just a "thou shalt", but rather feedback steps to hold people accountable for the decisions they make. Kudos!
I also noticed in one of your replies in this thread that you are a geek and contributed to the kernel. So, I would appreciate your thoughts on what kind of open source licenses would be acceptable under this legislation. BSD? GPLv2? GPLv3? MIT? Apache? Obviously, you needed a *specific* definition of "open source software" to work from. Here is the bill's definition of "Open source software":
It seems to me that there would be no problem using BSD-licensed software. The wording is quite nuanced, though, and a careful reading suggests it was intended to also allow GPL software.
Okay, one more question: Electronic Voting Machines -- What impact do you see this law having on their design and selection?
Thank-you for your efforts to get this law passed; I look forward to your responses!
So finally a guy in office passes a good bill, including the very wise and ESSENTIAL choise of using open document formats which is particularly important for data provided to the citizens
and all /. does it complain about it and poke holes where are all the congratulatory messages?
Seth did a great job! Support!
About 8 years ago, my employer adopted a policy which favored open standards and open source software. Today the site license for Microsoft products like Office and Exchange continues to rule as one administrator's secretary adopts a new version of Office and proceeds to distribute data in the new default format which is incompatible with previous versions so everyone upgrades because its easier than learning that Open/Libre Office can handle .docx and .xlsx files or using a Save As to ensure backward compatibility. Acess remains a problem as the stand-alone "database" file continues as the default.
The increasing number of Mac and *nix users learn to deal with the new file format but the new version virus always spreads because no one will enforce the policy and damn few people understand that there are alternatives.
Because XHTML/HTML was designed as more of a presentation format, not as a word processing or spreadsheet document storage format.
And ODF, which is the default file format for LibreOffice, is XML-based.
ODF is an official ISO/IEC standard. The International Organization for Standardization (ISO) and the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC) are the granddaddys of international standards. They don't come more standards compliant than that.
Yes, another excellent example of the potential here. And if other states adopt similar laws, the likelihood goes up of this happening... This is only good for open source developers, especially those in NH.
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
Answered in other bits and pieces already...
The key to getting this passed elsewhere is to contact your state officials, and get them working on copying this... State Legislators like copying other states, they prefer not to innovate, just to make tweaks to existing items.
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
Mr. Cohn, a question for you sir.
I know New Hampshire takes the whole "Live Free or Die" motto very seriously and I think that's awesome. I have three questions for you, little nagging things that are sort of holding me back on advising friends who are considering leaving New Jersey (the polar opposite of NH) for anywhere else to go to NH.
1) What's your Internet infrastructure like down there? Any plans to get a municipal system going, or something akin to power/telephone where the lines are public and the ISP provides the service?
2) How's the whole "cops don't like getting recorded by videos" thing going? Has there been any recent acknowledgements of the citizen's right to record police actions in public?
3) What's the downside to NH? It's cold, sure, and there's loads of Bostonians moving in towards the South/Southeast area, but aside from that I don't know what it is. So in the sense of an interview question, what's New Hampshire's greatest weakness?
The more informed I am, the more willing I am to advise people to move there and to move there myself eventually.
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
Opensource, at least on the desktop, is NEVER going to take off. People are WAY too addicted to MS Office. People can argue with me, but it is just the culture of government employees.
I'm using the latest LTS version of Kubuntu, with OpenOffice.org 3.2.1, and I figured that I would have LibreOffice when it would be ready. It's not in the package manager.
Updates to applications in an Ubuntu LTS, such as the Lucid (10.04) that you use, primarily consist of backported security bug fixes. You need to enable a backports repository to get the sorts of newer versions of applications under LTS that you'd get in one of the six-month releases or a rolling release distribution. As of 11.10, the way the installer configures the backports repository in apt has been revamped, and it should become easier to add newer applications starting with 12.04.
Try this: KMenu > Muon Package Manager > Settings > Configure Software Sources > Updates and turn on "Unsupported updates".
Why do people post worthless "lazy comments" asking for examples when Google already provides them?
Because not everybody knows how to construct a Google query that will return relevant results on the first page. For one thing, words have synonyms, and you don't necessarily know which synonym was used in a given. For another, Google often digs up results of tests of obsolete versions of computer programs, and there is no obvious indication as to whether the test result has improved in a newer version.
Then demand embedding rights from your font vendors, or establish a house style with freely licensed fonts.
I always complain that the software market should be more regulated to stop some abuses. Not only in favor of open source, but instead in favor of the consumers. I think that if should be a law that says:
1) All source code of commercial software should be published under any license that the author want, to allow security inspection of the source code and avoid backdoors.
2) Every software that is no longer supported by its manufacturer (reached End of Life) will be released as open source or public domain with its source code.
Sure, there most be a detailed rules about each one and put more examples on different scenario (games, console software, mainframe software) to understand its impact.
As a long-time New Hampshire resident, I think you raise an interesting question. The state public utilities commission really screwed us when Verizon decided to pull out of northern New England. They handed over the keys to the telecom kingdom to Fairpoint, a tiny utility that many said couldn't handle the job. Turns out they couldn't handle the job. Those of us in the more populated parts of NH saw Verizon rolling out fiber only to see those trucks cut and run. A portion of that is kept running by Fairpoint, but to the poorest possible level. The last ice storm showed us that their system had a single point of failure where it ties into the world.
The state is too interested in providing DSL service to the sparsest areas of the state while completely ignoring the areas where most of its residents live. What choices would you have as a NH resident? The same you'd get pretty much anywhere there isn't fiber: painfully slow DSL or overpriced you-must-buy-a-bundle cable. It's a sad state of affairs considering how many high tech workers there are here. Heck, you can't even register your vehicles online in many places because the towns don't want to pay anything extra to the state to provide the service to its residents. I don't disagree with those towns, but I do believe the state restricts them from running their own system.
All that aside, there's nowhere else I'd rather live. New Hampshire, by far, gets more things right than it gets wrong.
What do you mean by "disagree with regulation"? NH isn't a state full of anarchists. Our folks are generally against pointless and/or nanny-stating regulations. We don't need a law to tell us to buckle up. We either will, or we won't. Same thing with helmet laws for two wheeled vehicles. You want to take stupid risks? Go for it! You can even drive here without auto insurance. The law only requires that you be "financially responsible". Add "pointless" before regulation, and I think you'd be right on the money.
I do agree that this legislation is somewhat odd. If there were no laws barring the government from considering open source, why demand officials to consider it? If a tech company here in NH wanted to provide a solution to the state for $1 that was desirable in every way, this law would force the state to waste money considering options it wouldn't take. That probably wouldn't happen often, but it is a valid point. I can understand a law like this in neighboring Massachusetts where every state purchase is followed by a trail of corruption, but not here in the Granite State.
I am at the locval level and our budget is pathetic. I think we'll be look at Open Source solutions way before our state passes a similar law (hopefully).
Wow, sounds like every RFP NH issues for IT-related products and/or services will now be exactly one bullet item longer.
Time for all the misty-eyed Linux advocates to start asking - "Maybe this is when Linux/FOSS will take off?"
Ken
IRS maintains a collection of tape drives so it can read old computer tapes, I suspect someone, somewhere could figure out some way to read a punch card...
Maybe they could get some card readers from West Palm Beach County?
Ken
1) Yes, in fact, I discussed that sort of approach, and it's also been discussed as part of some contentious ongoing battles over power lines...
The 'wiring of NH' is something folks are discussing, and no answers or good plans (IMHO) yet.
The more south you are, and the more urban, of course, the better the situation
2) A recent 2nd Circuit decision and a number of NH decisions have helped a lot. http://www.copblock.org/tag/new-hampshire/
has some news on this. Plus "On the Job, on the Record" bill continues to be worked on in the Legislature.
3) New Hampshire's greatest weakness? Hmm... it's not the "cold" (mild winters and global warming, sweaters and fun stuff to do in winter, all help), and it's not Boston folks (most of the worst voting people live near the educational institutions... not the border of Mass...)
We have low taxes (esp compared to NJ), more relative freedoms (not perfect, but overall best in US already), and lots of tourism...
If I had to name a 'problem', it's that New England tends to be very conservative in taste, meaning that Dunkin Donuts is everywhere, so finding good coffee is hard, Spicy/Ethnic food is findable, but not common place. There is a long tradition, so attempts to restore 'the old NH' can be good (more freedomwise), but things which push against tradition are an uphill battle. While true everywhere, there is a certain reticence in New Hampshire folks (for better or worse). In some ways, this is WHY it's still the best (local politics, town meetings), and in other ways, it's still very hard to make that change happen (local politics, town meetings)
But I wouldn't change it for the world... it's just the other side of the coin...
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
The problem isn't that there is no method... it's that there is no affordable method (for data they really don't need access to, but are required to keep around by law.) Why spend money and space and so on, on hardware for 'one day, maybe?'
The point of open formats is that worst case, someone has to create a translation into whatever the current format needed is... no hardware or old software dependence....
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
Are you saying that Al Capone didn't run a regular business? Would you have dared say that in public, or to his face, in 1924?
WIth all due respect, you're a weird libertarian/Republican with a 5-digit Slashdot ID and pushing open source.
As a self-identified Republican, what do you think of the enforced socialism aspect of the free software movement - as in, how do you reconcile your (presumed) belief that the free market should work itself out but acquisitors should be forced to consider open source options by law?
This has nothing to do with the article, but I'm curious:
What do you think can/should be done to get us out of the current recession? What do you think of the current government-corporate collusion?
What do you think of the state of terror the US currently lives in? And what can be done by citizens and politicians (such as yourself) to bring rationality back to the table?
What is your opinion on the religious right attempting to create religious-based laws in the US, both in the Constitution? Do you agree with the wedge strategy put forward by the Discovery Institute - as in, do you think that it is a good idea, a bad idea, or a neutral idea?
What is your opinion on the length of copyright terms and the applicability of patents on purely software "inventions"?
If your answers to the above questions reflect a "typical" Slashdotter (if there is such a thing as a typical Slashdotter), why do you self-identify as Republican and libertarian?
As a self-identified Republican, what do you think is your largest disagreement with liberals, what sources do you have to back up your side, and what can be done to bring the two sides together?
And I hate to bring even more attention to this subject, but: Which Republican candidate do you support for the US presidency and why/why not?
I know I'm putting you on the spot and presuming things about you nine ways from Sunday, and don't feel at all like you have to answer - this is simply to indulge my own curiousity. And yes, if you couldn't tell, I'm fairly liberal, but I do have some conservative ideas. Thanks!
Are you kidding? The amount of politics and bureauocracy in a large (private) company is staggering. Where the hell did you work that there's none of that?
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
I call bullshit. I won't say that you didn't see it, but it's far from universal.
I've worked in government twice (few years each) and consulted several times for very different locations and divisions and levels of government. I have never encountered this. OTOH, I've had coworkers struggle with approvals and value-estimating so they could reimburse a vendor that offered to take them to a tier-2 college football game (so there'd be no quid pro quo), I've seen vendors spend tons of effort on planning only to lose on bid price, and gear excessed or thrown away despite there being someone on staff that had some freecycle-ish use/interest in it. Lately, I've seen employees squeezed pretty steadily lately trying to do more with less.
My takeaway has been that, having worked for both governments and corporations, both tend to run inefficiently compared to small startups and boutique firms. It's the tradeoff for economies of scale, almost like some sort of universal economic law. Strange 'avoid even the appearance of controversy' cultures spring up like cargo cults. Money doesn't matter when it's 6-7 figures, but managers obsess about staff spending 29 vs 69 dollars for a mouse. I mean, it's not evil... it's just typical bozo behaviour in a realm that has too much inertia to make that a live-or-die characteristic.
Having worked in both the Federal and the Civilian world, many Federal decisions on acquisition are, in fact, based on efficiency and justified requirements. The FAR (Federal Acquisition Regulations) spell out in detail a lot of the requirements for making decisions. The recent USAF tanker got kicked back twice due to not following the rules.
However, I've seen plenty of companies by software because "the CEO of the company had lunch with the VP of the software company and says we need to buy it, instead of what the IT shop had planned."
Always glad to answer these sorts of questions:
1) Enforced socialism? Open Source is voluntary. If you agree to the rules by which the code is shared, you play by those rules. It's got no more 'force' than any other aspect of copyright. (And for the record, I'm anti-copyright, which is a state granted monopoly, and in a truly free society, it wouldn't exist)
2) Get out of the current recession? Ron Paul has the answer: it's monetary policy.
2a) Corporatism? Yes, it's a big problem. I think the Occupiers and the Tea Partiers describe the same problem, different facets. Money in politics is the root of all the evil in both.
3) I'm anti-PatriotAct, anti-TSA, anti-war.
3a) Sadly, not much. Folks like Ron Paul are showing that while 10-15% want to fix things, the rest like the illusions.
4) The religious right needs to grow up and get a life. I believe that they have the right to be left alone, and they need to leave others alone too.
I hadn't heard of the wedge strategy, and frankly, it's a mistake... Government needs to get out of people's live, not tell them what to think or not think.
5) As I said, I'm anti-copyright. Mimi and Eunice FTW.
6) I see myself as a typical slashdotter, in the sense of the old school hacker types... I'm a unix geek with a beard. Usenet and the early net in general was heavily libertarian, and I think a major core sector of libertarians are in the geek industries...
7) biggest disagreement with Liberals: Stay out of my wallet - it's mine.
biggest disagreement with (social) Conservatives: stay out of my bedroom - it's not your business.
How to bring the two sides together? I think the new populism will find a libertarian-ish middle ground bringing Tea Party and Occupy together into a new fusion that respects both wallet and bedroom, ideally more voluntaryist. Or else it'll all fall apart, as the collapse hits us hard here in the US, and in Europe too.
8) I'm a Ron Paul endorser, and I was up on the stage when he announced in NH this past spring in the AP video of the event. I'm the furry muppet in the back.
For all the reasons everyone else does: he's right.
Help achieve Liberty in your lifetime - join the Free State Project - http://www.freestateproject.org
only if they are allowed to pick what they consider the best tool for the job that fits
There are migration costs, particularly with proprietary data formats and protocols. It's not OK for the IT department to make a choice that causes the state's data to be held hostage by the vendor.
The vendor may later get rid of introductory pricing or even discontinue the product, but lock-in makes the state unable to leave. This is not acceptable.
The word 'company' has its origins in mercenary guns for hire. So yes, enterprise, even endeavor, would be a better suited label for self-governance.
And, in most cases, its you, friends and family 'versus' the company. And if your neighborhood (or country even) is so poor as not being able to care for its 'least', then, in most cases, the company has won.
It could be Mr. Peabodys' coal train rumbling through your applachian back-water,
Or, you might live someplace where Bechtel owns all the water, even before its fallen from the sky; where your neighbors might be happy to spare you a few drops, if they weren't so poor in large part due to massive corruption.
Me, I'm all for small business and small government, believing that most people dont really need 'leaders'. But the world is driven by conglomerations and multinationals who only want to grow bigger. And put the more responsible, local 'enterprise' out of business.
When you've got a RioTinto, or Monsanto, or any of the myriad legion of multi-billion dollar corps out to screw you and fuck up your back yard before slinking off in the night; well, that's what .gov is 'supposed' to defend us from.
If people cannot put an end to them and
their mercs and their lawhores and their economic hell-hounds, the white-collar criminals and merchants of death; then, unfortunately for us, we probably got the government we deserve.
Thank you for your answer. I'm not even your constituent and you understand the importance of answering the questions of the layman. I wish more politicians were like you.
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
It's been a heck of a journey from my days as guerilla marketer for LinuxPPC, with a few notable stops along the way, to where I am now, a Milwaukee County Supervisor. I won election to this office back in April 2011, and won reelection in January 2012 simply by filing my nomination papers—and having no opponent. (#win!)
Back in November 2011, my colleagues on the Milwaukee County Board of Supervisors voted unanimously to approve a small budget amendment that contained an order for our IT department to do a study on moving to OSS. That made it part of the 2012 budget. Work has already begun, and there were a few guys lurking in the basement that had been running Linux for years.
Milwaukee County's IT policy is predictably centered around Windows. But we also have a mainframe somewhere in the bowels of the government, crunching away after all these years. I'm not sure if anyone still knows how to write in COBOL, but it's in there.
Worse yet, we have dozens of custom Windows apps that do all sorts of things, over many departments. I don't know that there was ever a clear voice in guiding their creation. Removing them may be painful, if and when the time comes.
This is just a study to look at integrating open source into our mix. So far, it's going well, though we'll see how it looks when I meet with the IT folks next week. My hunch from initial talks is that we have a good opening for OSS.
Also, an assistant at the county board suggested that I introduce a resolution that would bar the purchase of software with recurring upgrade fees. We need to save money, after all. It would, in essence, guide the county toward the purchase of open source solutions. While not everything has an open source alternative, many of the basic tasks we do could be done for a fraction of their current price. I tell ya, I'll drag Milwaukee County IT into the late 20th century! If not a little beyond that.
-- haaz.
It's the way of the world.
Just like slavery and female repression!
Pretty much, in the sense that slavery and female oppression are symptoms of human behavor - just like establishing governments. There's always going to be a bully and people who follow him, and then BAM! Instant dictator.
Get rid of the government, and you'll find yourself needing to solve a lot of problems.
Heaven forbid we work those things out. Governments only killed a half-billion people last century, that's not too high a price, is it?
How many did governments save? There's a few places in the world that don't have government in any meaningful sense. Lessee... Darfur, Somalia...
Besides, who works the problems out? Everyone just magically agrees to the obvious solutions?
my street hasn't been repaved since it was built in the 1930s
And you're against fee-for-service roads....
Yep, that I am. My city maintains asphalt and concrete streets in poor neighborhoods. It doesn't maintain brick streets (even ones in upper middle class neighborhoods). I don't know why - I suspect they can't rebrick them because brick streets no longer meet roadway standards. I do know any time they try to asphalt a brick street the city historical society throws a fit.
I don't really care that much about my street; it was built well, and while there's a few potholes, it's not too bad - pretty much like a concrete street with more road noise. Some of the other brick streets in town are much worse, though, and those are the ones I'd like to see repaved.
Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
Because XHTML/HTML was designed as more of a presentation format, not as a word processing or spreadsheet document storage format.
But fundamentally, the data is still there in a format you can process. It's got at least some semantic information (e.g., where the paragraphs and headings are, which parts are references to other bits). It's definitely not terrible.
Of course, the truth of it is that SGML was designed as a generic structured textual data storage scheme (HTML is an application of it) and XML is an update to SGML that removes a lot of the really complicated bits that nobody really needs (XHTML is a descendent of HTML as applied to an XML underpinning). Yet ultimately, as long as the data is there and reasonably easy to extract, a format will work fine for long-term storage. Even the Microsoft Office proprietary formats aren't too much of a problem, as there's plenty of open source software that can open them and get the majority of the content out just fine; even if it doesn't look 100% the same, you can get the sense of things.
"Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
I am a Free Stater (moved in 2009) and friends of several legislators here in NH. Lemme take a crack...
1.) Municipal infrastructures aren't something libertarians want to push because they have to be funded by taxation. At least, if a legislator has ANY say in the matter. New Hampshire is also pretty sparsely populated so in many cases except for the bigger cities it's not even viable. Southern NH has 4G coverage so in many cases that's actually faster than DSL or lower cable packages. Rural areas are hit and miss. Some don't even have a single DSL package. A few years ago, there was a corporate changeover from Verizon to Fairpoint and part of the deal there was to wire a great portion of NH with broadband by (I think) 2016, so that IS improving, but it will matter if broadband is a requirement.
2.) Bills were introduced to the State House to put into law the right to record cops. There was a NH Supreme Court hearing recently on the matter. Furthermore, the Glick decision was just made out of Mass in District court affirming the right. That ruling set precedent that covers New Hampshire. And attorney Seth Hipple has successfully defended against police wiretapping charges that were pretty high-profile here. So I'd say that's a battle that we're winning, though we've not yet dealt it the death blow. YET.
3.) The depends on the person. My opinion? No nightlife. I have no idea why this is (other than alcohol laws) but there seems to be both no opportunity and no DESIRE for an active nightlife. Other people mention the lack of ethnic food. Since NH has no sales or income tax, property taxes and car registrations are VERY high compared to other states, but the overall tax burden is the lowest. Everyone has complaints, but some people complain about the things that other people think make NH awesome (like the snow or the sparse population). So it varies.
3a.) Statistically, Bostonians aren't as large a crowd as people think. There are a lot of folks who leave MA but they TEND to be more fiscally conservative people who get tired of YET MORE regulation and taxation there.
Pretty much, in the sense that slavery and female oppression are symptoms of human behavor
Except they don't exist without laws that enforce them...
There's always going to be a bully and people who follow him, and then BAM! Instant dictator.
I'm all about not having dictators, but governments have been the most useful tool of dictators throughout history. When Hitler passed a law forbidding Jews to own guns in 1938, that was a government action. Then we have governments like the US supporting every dictator around since WWII.
Get rid of the government, and you'll find yourself needing to solve a lot of problems.
No doubt. But laziness doesn't excuse the killing of half a billion people. As Gandhi always said, "the means are everything."
How many did governments save?
You tell me (my number has easy citations). Governments saving people from other governments wouldn't count. Governments saving people from problems it created wouldn't count either.
There's a few places in the world that don't have government in any meaningful sense. Lessee... Darfur, Somalia...
Somalia's conditions are improving without a government. The fair measure is before and after, and comparing with neighbors.
Darfur was a mess because one group of people who want to be the government was at war with the other group.
Besides, who works the problems out? Everyone just magically agrees to the obvious solutions?
As I mentioned earlier, check out the works of Bob Murphy and other private law scholars, or Dubai's private law. I know in all my contracts I use a binding arbitration clause - the courts are the worst place to wind up with a problem.
My city maintains asphalt and concrete streets in poor neighborhoods. It doesn't maintain brick streets (even ones in upper middle class neighborhoods).
I don't get why you wouldn't be happier taking $50 off your tax bill and giving it to a private company (with all your other brick-street neighbors) to have a road that's in top shape. Can you expand on how your current situation is better?
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
1) Infrastructure
At my house in rural Hopkinton, NH, I reliably get 8MB down/4MB up. I telecommute to work most days; I live and die by my fast and reliable internet connection. I have had no particular issues. Note that I choose to live in the woods; there are in fact cities (not metropileses, but places with tall buildings and hundreds of thousands of people) in NH: Manchester, Nashua, etc
2) "recording cops"
Yes, FSPers have been pushing legislation to clarify that people have the right to record on-duty civil servants (especially police). Separately, a number of court cases have been won (by FSPer lawyers) that have adjudicated that on-duty police have no reasonable expectation of privacy. So, it's an issue that a number of FSPers are pushing on hard.
3) Downside
Yes, it gets cold in winter. And butt-hot in the summer. And the closest Really Big City is Boston, which is about an hour away from the NH state capitol in Concord. Oh, and there's no income or sales tax, so if you really want to pay those, NH will suck for you.
Part of the Second American Revolution!
FWIW, I was born in Wisconsin. I lived lots of places, including Indiana, Adelaide Australia, London England, and California. My job is such that I can work pretty much anywhere on Earth where there is an internet connection. New Hampshire is my chosen home.
Part of the Second American Revolution!
I'm not sure you understand what people expect of a professional-grade word processor.
People expect a professional-grade word processor to intelligently handle pagination, headers, footers, footnotes and bibliographical references. And to automatically generate table of contents and indexes.
It may also have collaboration features to coordinate multiple authors and editors like storing multiple revisions of a document with side-notes and highlighting.
If your point is that you can make nice documents in XHTML/HTML, well yes of course you can, but an HTML editor has nowhere near the features of a real word processor.
And an HTML editor isn't even a crude substitute for a spreadsheet editor.
Again, I'm not sure you understand what people expect of a professional-grade word processor.
Maybe "you can get the sense of things" is adequate for a grocery list or letter to your mother, but business and professional users want to get out exactly what they put in.
Yes, Microsoft's proprietary formats have been mostly reverse engineered, but they're overly elaborate (that's the nice way to say they're crufty) and they change with every new release. So you're always playing catch-up with the latest releases.
And you're not Microsoft so why bother? When you can start with a clean slate and design a clean XML-based document format (without Microsoft's years of added cruft).
As an aside, I heard that Microsoft's "open", "standard" document specification is 6000 pages long. The ODF (Open Document Format) specification is 600 pages long. Which would you rather implement?
Does Open Source software work with JAWS and other technology for the blind?
I remember back when I was in the Navy, and we wanted a particular computer. We listed every last thing, including 16550 UART. Don't forget the Microsoft volume licensing. The more copies you need, the cheaper it is each. I use Microsoft Office at work (a state agency) and because I work there, Microsoft has the HUP which lets me buy Office for home for $10 if I download it, or $20 for a DVD version. This is the full blown office, including Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Access, Publisher, Outlook. There is the training user requirement, which will continue for all new hires. Most people already know how to use Microsoft Office.
Pretty much, in the sense that slavery and female oppression are symptoms of human behavor
Except they don't exist without laws that enforce them...
Seriously?
OK, slavery as a system requires some sort of legal structure. I'll grant you that. Slavery itself doesn't. You think a government is required to go kidnap some attractive girl and force her to be your wife, or just your sex puppet?
The opression of women is an even more stupid argument. It's cultural. Honor killings aren't legal pretty much anywhere, but they happen. The concept of "women's work" and "a woman's place" isn't a legal one. Laws may codify such behavior, but they don't cause it, except in a few rare exceptions like the Taliban's government in Afghanistan.
Discrimination against women is illegal in the U.S. except in a few certain areas, like the military. Why do women still get on average $.75 to every dollar a man makes? Hint: The government isn't causing it.
There's always going to be a bully and people who follow him, and then BAM! Instant dictator.
I'm all about not having dictators, but governments have been the most useful tool of dictators throughout history. When Hitler passed a law forbidding Jews to own guns in 1938, that was a government action. Then we have governments like the US supporting every dictator [lewrockwell.com] around since WWII.
Sure. Not all government is good. I never said it was. My point is that governments prevent the guy on the corner from ganging up with his neighbors and conquering your street.
Face it. You're going to have a government, because if there isn't one, someone's going to make one, and he's going to make you subject to it. You can be a U.S. citizen, or a subject of King Bob's Pine Street Mauraders.
Get rid of the government, and you'll find yourself needing to solve a lot of problems.
No doubt. But laziness doesn't excuse the killing of half a billion people. As Gandhi always said, "the means are everything."
How do you solve large problems without government? It's not laziness.
How many did governments save?
You tell me (my number has easy citations). Governments saving people from other governments wouldn't count. Governments saving people from problems it created wouldn't count either.
How about governments saving people from each other? When was the last time you were stabbed for your wallet? When was the last time a group of armed men came into your house and shot you to take over your land? There are no numbers for these things, because the government prevents them from happening.
How about governments saving helpless people? How many people were rescued by the Coast Guard, or averted death because of the lighthouses, communicatoin, and weather services it provides? How many people were found alive under the rubble by the Oklahoma National Guard the last time a tornado ripped Oklahoma City a new one? How many orphaned children were given shelter, food, and an education? How many suddenly homeless people did FEMA shelter and feed when they lost their homes on the gulf coast after Katrina? How many children have survived to adulthood because the government requires you to innoculate them for polio? There are numbers for some of these, but these are just a few examples and looking up the number of people the government has actively saved would be quite task.
Yeah, governments kill people sometimes. The solution is better government, not no government.
There's a few places in the world that don't have government in any meaningful sense. Lessee... Darfur, Somalia...
Somalia's conditions are improving [ssrn.com] without a government. The fair measure is before and after, and comparing with neighbors.
Darfur was a mess because one group of people who w
Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.