Ask Slashdot: How Is Online Engineering Coursework Viewed By Employers?

New submitter KA.7210 writes "I am an employed mechanical engineer, having worked with the same company since graduation from college 5 years ago. I am looking to increase my credentials by taking more engineering courses, potentially towards a certificate or a full master's degree. Going to school full time is not an option, and there is only one engineering school near me that offers a program that resembles what I wish to study, and also has the courses at night. Therefore, I have begun to look at online options, and it appears there are many legitimate, recognizable schools offering advanced courses in my area of interest. My question to Slashdot readers out there is: how do employers view degrees/advanced credentials obtained online, when compared to the more typical in-person education? Does anyone have specific experience with this situation? The eventual degree itself will have no indication that it was obtained online, but simple inference will show that it was not likely I maintained my employment on the east coast while attending school in-person on the west coast. I wish to invest my time wisely, and hope that some readers out there have experience with this issue!"

Comments

Ask your boss

[Teun]

Let me start pointing out I write this from a European point of view.
Over here good educational institutions are certified and registered.

I know from first hand experience my boss is willing to pick up the tab for further education providing he sees the advantage of it and you stay for another two years.
It is common a new employer would pay off any remaining expenses for the course when you change job before the end of the payback period.

In short, ask your own boss what he thinks of a particular course.

Re:Ask your boss

[The Snowman]

Maybe in Corporate America, where you have to slave 60 hours a week just to keep your job, and where you're expected to feel guilty for wanting to have a social life.

There have been times at my job where my employer basically says "oh well" when it comes to OT. Like when I have family plans. If I work the hours, nobody even thanks me. It gets tiring. It doesn't happen often, but it always occurs at the absolute worst time.

In Europe (at least developing software in the Netherlands), this is simply not true. The reason: employers realise that a high turnover costs a huge amount of money and worse, delays projects. The latter costs time to market, which can be even more expensive and in extreme cases can kill the company.

Here in the USA, it is cheaper to marginalize or plain old fire employees and then replace them with cheap imported labor. I'm sure you are aware about outsourcing being the new fad here to reduce payroll expenses so the CEO can get a few more million in his bonus. We also hire immigrant or work-visa employees who are willing to work for around 2/3 the salary of an American born and bred here.

It may sound cocky or stereotypical, but many of those "imported" workers are used to worse conditions back home. In much of the world, families live together. Children move out when they marry, not when they reach the legal age of adulthood. Children who do move out get roommates, and live in smaller apartments. Here in the U.S.A., we are taught that everyone needs tons of space. Buy a house. A big car. Lots of land. No spouse or children? You still need 4 bedrooms and an SUV. Too expensive? Fuck it, just go into perpetual debt that will only end when you die. It is our way of life, our culture. Immigrant workers bring their (better) work ethic and (better) lifestyle with them, and employers take advantage of it.

Online is worth much less

[introp]

At my last employer, where I was involved in the technical half of resume screening and candidate evaluations, online courses weren't worth very much in the early stages. The problem is that the quality of the programs varies so widely that it's best for the screener to just ignore them. Yes, there are diamonds in the rough, but you don't have enough time to go do the research, so you mentally block that part out and continue on. It's not particularly fair, but when you have 500 resumes to work through in a day, you have to come up with a fast system.

Now, if you make it into the later rounds and it comes down to you versus someone who hasn't demonstrated that drive to better themselves and their career? Yeah, I'd take the time to go look up the online program, any graduation statistics it published, etc.

Re:Online is worth much less

[fliptout]

I assume you are referring to online-only institutions, but highly rated schools have online engineering programs, too.

In many cases, there is no way to know if the degree was obtained online or not. For example, if you get a MS Electrical Engineering from Stanford by taking classes online, the degree says "Stanford", not "Stanford online" or somesuch.

Professional Engineer stamp is the way to go.

[Dr_Marvin_Monroe]

Any sort of extra education is great, I encourage everyone to get smarter, but getting your PE stamp would do the best for your career, that's something that NO employer can disregard.

I'm not suggesting that it's "one or the other", I'm suggesting that you use any online or offline education to get a professional credential that's recognized by states or professional societies. For the ME, it's getting your PE stamp. Like a lawyer passing the bar or a doctor passing their boards, the PE is something that no employer can ignore.

At one equipment manufacturer that I worked for, only a couple of the engineers had their PE, and they were usually moved up to "senior engineer" or "vice-president of engineering" pretty quickly, the rest of us were kept down and encouraged not to get too uppity...

Re:Professional Engineer stamp is the way to go.

[Cerlyn]

Disclaimer: For mechanical engineers, I personally think that getting a PE often is a good move.

However since this is Slashdot, I would argue that for computer engineers this is not always true, or at least the easiest thing to do in the United States.

While completing college, I took and passed the Engineering-In-Training state exam for Electrical Engineering. I then worked for several years with various employers, some of which had PE's above or adjacent to me in the hierarchy; others of which did not.

The electrical engineering exam for PEs seems to be bending-over backwards to reverse the small percentage of licensed EE's relative to other disciplines. When I looked into this a year ago it was possible to take a purely computer-oriented exam without a lot of the power, electromagnetics, and other topics. The state certifying board where I currently live seemed more than willing to consider justification statements proving that work I did while not under the supervision of a PE could be credited as work experience.

At the time I also was a member the local NSPE/state society, attending meetings with lots of other PEs, and being flooded with offers of legal and civil engineer training courses.

But I never could get PE certification before my EIT expired. The catch was I could not find enough PEs that would be willing to sign of on me as a personal reference, largely because most felt uncomfortable with their knowledge about what I had done.

And since there are so many exclusions to when you can use the term "Engineer" without a PE in most states, I ran out of PEs to ask.

For Mechanical Engineers getting your PE often can be a good thing. But for Electrical Engineers and Computer Engineers especially it can be a chicken & egg problem.

Mod parent up.

[Shandalar]

Mod parent up. As an employer at a small business, if I value a four-year bachelors degree at a university at, say, a 10, then I would value a degree of the same name obtained online as about a 2, partially because of introp's observation that the quality is all over the place and is an unknown; and partially, I admit, due to personal unfamiliarity.

Re:Mod parent up.

[gandhi_2]

Correction: you grew up a douche.

Seriously, someone who summarily dismisses someone for going to college is worse than all the cocks who dismiss people for not going to college.

In the US, business doesn't care.

[Toasterboy]

Business (HR specifically) doesn't give a shit about your degree. They care about a) that you have the checkbox, b) who you worked for previously and are not lying about it, and c) whether it looks like you aren't a total fuckup who will cost them. It's about risk avoidance.

The actual team you interview with (if it wasn't an HR drone) cares that you look like you know your shit and can carry your weight.

Engineering and especially computer degrees are such a total crapshoot on the skills you get in a candidate, that they don't know how to weigh your degree. Even degrees from badass schools sometimes come with folks who still can't code their way out of a wet paper bag. Besides, most of that senior level theory stuff in the degree won't help you much in a real world job until the late stages of your career, and will piss off your peers who don't have the same background, and definitely piss off management, who barely understands what a linked list is.

The quality of in person versus remote will depend on your learning style, and whether you actually would make use of those in-person office hours anyway.

Exactly. What is your goal?

[khasim]

1. Are you taking the additional classes to learn additional material because YOU want to?
Then it does not matter how the school is viewed. You're in it for the material.

2. Are you taking the additional classes as a "stepping stone" to an additional degree / classes that you want to take?
Again, you're in it for the material so don't worry.

3. Are you looking for something to build up your resume?
Then look for what schools have the best reputations and work around their requirements. You're in it for the school name in that case.

But don't confuse any of those items. If it HAPPENS that your choice will fit more than one category, great. But if not, then keep your focus on your primary goal.

And to reiterate the parent post, once you have your first job your work history matters far, Far, FAR more than what courses you took (are taking) or what your GPA was (is).

And since you've already stated that you have your first engineering job ...

Then **you're** naive!

[zidium]

I've personally been *demoted* for asking about funding continuous education!

My manager was OK with it, he even submitted the request to HR, who then submitted it to his boss for approval. His boss had an issue with it, and came to me and said, "If you think you need additional education, you're not as sharp as we need you to be." and then, since Texas is an at-will state (as in, they can fire you, at will, for any reason any time), I was summarily dismissed.

I'm sure this happens everywhere. I read your post as Insightful, not Funny. Your WHOOOSH was just disappointing.

Re:Then **you're** naive!

[The Snowman]

I honestly really hate the fuck out of the USA sometimes. So much injustice for employees.

That's what we get for our bastardized free market economy. Us little people don't have much of a voice in running the corporations, so the people at the top who hold all the cards get to make all the decisions. Being selfish, those decisions benefit the rich, while us working class are being squeezed tight.

The other day I was driving around my suburb and realized that it is visibly going to hell. People who used to have good jobs are moving out because they don't have jobs anymore. The ghetto element is moving in. People who still have good jobs are moving out because of ghetto creep. Malls are closing due to reduced business and increased crime. Businesses move out because of worker safety.

If businesses respected their employees more, none of this would be happening. Wages would be up. People would be employed. The middle class wouldn't be squeezed -- in fact it would be growing as the lower class moves up. This country is destined for some ugly times if this doesn't change: the recent recession is nothing compared to what I believe will happen next.

Re:Then **you're** naive!

[kiwimate]

That stinks, and I'm sorry for you. It sounds like you were in the wrong company, or hit the wrong manager, or something else was going on.

My first company (New Zealand) strongly, strongly, strongly encouraged me to get certified. They gave me a raise to anyone who completed a CNE or an MCSE.

My current company paid for my first master's degree, 100%. The department I was in at that time had more people doing 100% company funded graduate degrees than were not. Now I'm doing a second master's degree. Yep, they're paying 100% of that too. Same with the guy who sits next to me - Master's degree in Software Engineering. And one of the developers, who's finishing her MBA.

Some companies believe in the value of higher education. Some don't. I'm lucky to be in one that does.

By the way, we are all doing our degrees at physical campuses. But I know several people who've gone the University of Phoenix route.

Re:Then **you're** naive!

[raaum]

Dumber than a pile of rocks. Somehow, the removal of all government regulation and control will lead to a paradise?

You realize we had that here in the United States at one point? In the romanticized Old West, John Wayne's character - the irascible lawman - won out over the evil gunslinger. In actuality, whoever had the most money (firepower) did whatever he wanted. Somewhat later, the now-idolized robber barons (Carnegie, Rockefeller) ensured that anyone who didn't play along with their goals starved, while those that did play along were effective slaves.

The reason your great-aunt didn't die of starvation: government (pretty common 100 years ago). The reason your cousin isn't in debtor's prison: government (again, pretty common not that long ago). The reason that the average lifespan has increased from ~50 to ~76 in the past 100 years: government.

If you want to live in a libertarian paradise, move to Somalia.

On-line, other education and courses - advise

[ciurana]

Howdy.

I'm a VP of technology for several companies, and have been in a position to hire software, network, and system engineers since at least 1997. In all honesty, neither I, nor any of the people who've reported to me, ever paid much attention about where someone went to school, what their actual degree was, or whether they had earned some honor -- as long as the guy could deliver. From certs to prestigious schools, we never really bothered. Eventually I found out that I had a couple of MIT grads and at least one Stanford kid. I also had a pile of people whose degrees were awarded by foreign universities (including my own) and really... nobody really cares.

If you have the skills and you have the work experience, then you should be fine.

Right now I sit on the tech board for a couple of companies in Europe and the US, and I'm driving the technology at a very large social network with dev operations in the UK and Russia. I do notice that Europeans pay more attention to "schooling" and "degrees" and "titles" than US companies do, but not by much. My former employers and clients include some of the largest companies in Silicon Valley, rest of the US, Europe, Japan, and Mexico. The only occasions when I had to produce some kind of official proof of education were:

* When getting my US labor certification (1991... long time ago...), and when getting my Russian labor certification (last year) -- bureaucrats just love the fsck-ng paperwork
* When applying for a US federal job -- even then, they clarified that all they care about is whether I completed the degree or whether it was accredited, the date, and some accreditation equivalence since my degrees are from foreign institutions

Pro Tip: see if your employer will pitch in for part or whole course. Tech departments have educational budgets ranging from a couple of hundred dollars/year for books per employee, to full scholarships. I've auth'd books, on-line courses, conferences, PIM, and university courses for my peeps many times in the past. Check that out with your supervisor or with HR. A lot of people don't realize the option might be there -- and, if others in your group aren't taking advantage of it, your manager may be amiable to extend your budget a bit more (since money she doesn't spend is money she may have to cut next year).

So -- get your education wherever you can as long as they are legit, kick some butt, take names, and good luck in your career advancement!

Cheers!

Re:On-line, other education and courses - advise

[udippel]

While this is insightful, to say the least, I doubt if it can be generalised for 'engineering'. I doubt this very much.
Whenever I was involved in employing electrical engineers, I'd surely look very closely at the formal qualification. If I were in civil engineering, I would use a microscope before I allowed anyone to 'deliver' - as you put it - at building a bridge for my company, for example.
And the submitter states he is a mechanical engineer.

From my experience...

[gnalre]

I can only talk from what I have seen and done, but in the UK we have a online university called the Open university which is generally well regarded. That is not to say that all employers will provide the same respect as say a MSc from Oxford or Cambridge(Actually a side point, a MSc from Oxford or Cambridge is generally worthless since they will award you one for just staying alive after your BSc), but a lot of managers I know got their MBA's from the Open University so they know its value.

Generally most qualifications especially technical ones really show nothing about once you left university Any attempt to continue your education and extend your skills and knowledge should be valued by your present and future employer. If not you are working for the wrong company.

Re:Been there done that

[AK Marc]

HR won't care as long as the checkbox is checked off and they get a transcript.

But the hiring manager will count "PhD in Mechanical Engineering from the University of Phoenix" at about the same level as "GED" even if HR just ticks the box for "advanced technical degree." I had a colleague get a BS from UoP at the same time I got a Masters in night school from a real university. We compared classes a lot, and I was disappointed by his classes, as I would have liked to improve some of my basic skills, DBA and programming are two things I skipped in becoming a networking guru. But the classes didn't teach much, they were more self-justifying (work for work's sake to prove you did something, rather than actually improving the person taking them).

And yes, an online degree from a "real" university will be treated the same as the paper one in most cases, and nobody will care if you took in-person classes from UoP (if they have any, I have no idea), it'll still be UoP.

Re:Been there done that

[zidium]

My advice is to attend one class and do well. Then you can truthfully say "you went to College". Then if they ask what your degree was in, say, "I majored in Computer Engineering.", which in my case is a 100% valid statement (I did study for 3 years).

99% of the time, they *assume* I have a degree. I'll never (and have never) lied about it, because it just doesnt matter much at all, really.

Maybe 3 out of 100 interviews, I've been asked, "Did you receive a degree?" and I just say "No, in 2003, I realized I could learn more and make money at the same time by doing my own contract development." THEN I get brownie points for taking the path of Gates, Bezos, Page, and Steve Jobs (who only took one semester of college).

By that point, the 3 who asked hired me very quickly thereafter.

Masters might be good, MBA possibly a better idea

[perpenso]

I agree to a degree (no pun intended), however I have some observations.

Getting a Masters in the same field as a Bachelors may not be worth it **unless** you work or hope to work in the area you do your research. Personally I have no regrets getting a MS Comp Sci but my employer paid for everything except parking and we were located literally next door to the university.

Are you targeting a specific employer? For example if you wanted to work for the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) is Pasadena, California it may be very advantageous to work on a Masters at the neighboring university, Cal Poly Pomona. Your department may have professors affiliated or consulting with JPL, JPL interns or otherwise employs students from the university, etc.

As an undergraduate I had the conversation about getting a Masters with a fellow Comp Sci major. I was undecided. He commented an MBA would be far more useful. I laughed and couldn't imagine doing that. Many years later I did go to business school, again next door to work (the university is well ranked) and with employer support. After many years on the job focusing exclusively on engineering and technical issues I really enjoyed learning new and different thing, understanding other parts of the organization, understanding their perspective and concerns so that I could communicate more effectively with them ... but most of all I enjoyed seeing how ignorant and misinformed I had been about business perspectives and business school. For example marketing was not about snake oil and psychological cons as my inner engineer would have expected, it was about how to conduct a survey to get real rankings of customer preferences (which may differ from self identified preferences), how to construct a mathematical model of the existing market, how to introduce a new product with new features into that market and see how the market adapts, etc. In other words how to develop an educated guess at expected market share of something new, I used to believe they just pulled such numbers out of ... the air. This is just one example of many.

I'd recommend looking into an MBA. Its probably not at all what one expects and it probably is more valuable to scientists and engineers than more degrees in their existing fields. As you become more senior you need to interact, understand and effectively communicate with others outside of science and engineering. I think an MBA helps in this regard.

It depends on what you mean by "online"

[Falrick]

There are online courses, such as MIT's open courseware, and then there are online courses, such as UIUC's master of computer science. For courses that you take via Open Courseware, Kahn Academy or similar programs, I doubt your current or future employer will think much of it. For courses that you took towards a masters degree from an accredited brick-and-mortar university, on the other hand, should carry the same weight as if you attended them in person. Why? Because you are watching the same lecture that students physically present are watching.

I've been working towards my masters of science in computer science degree since 2007 (one class at a time takes forever). I started taking classes remotely at a remote television site at my employer. I later left that employer and got a job somewhere that didn't have access to those remote television sites, so I started taking the classes online. Since I started, I'm now at my third company, and all three have been more than willing to pay for my courses. In fact, that's probably the most telling point for whether anyone is going to take your courses seriously: is your company willing to pay for the classes. My advice is only take classes from a public or private university with a real physical campus, and only universities you would consider attending in person if you lived nearby.

Now, having taken courses remotely for several years, let me forewarn you about online learning:

• -- Online classes are harder than in-person classes. "But you said it's the same class that other students are taking in person!" Yup, it is. But those students have the ability to ask a question in lecture. They get to be in the room as it's happening and can look at all the boards the prof is using. When you watch it online, you watch what the video-taper thought was most important. I can't tell you the number of times I've been staring at a slide when the prof says something like "I'm pointing at the most important aspect of this class. If you don't understand this, you won't do well. Now this other thing, don't worry about that." "Wait!" I scream at my monitor. "What are you pointing at!"
• -- You get less attention than on-campus students. In the nine classes I've taken, I've had maybe 6 homeworks/exams returned to me. Most of those were from the same class. A guy I worked with got his MSEE from a California state school taking all courses online, and he always got his exams back, so it probably just depends on the university you attend.
• -- Some classes will still insist on group projects. Yup, group projects suck, but they suck even more when you have no way of meeting the other students in your class. Online students are also typically students that have other lives, which is why they are taking classes online! Coordinating your schedule with theirs is challenging, as is the process of vetting a good project partner.
• -- You may be required to physically show up to present a project. When I first started I had to take a prerequisite class that had a lab; a lab I had to drive 1 1/2 hours to attend in person, which wasn't so bad, but it would be three hours from where I live now. Take prerequisites from somewhere else if this isn't an option. My co-worker had to fly to California to take an exam. Both of these are the exception, not the rule, but be prepared for that possibility

Now going online also puts you in the driver's seat when it comes to choosing your institution. You get to pick from many more universities than are likely to be proximate to where you live. You can watch lectures multiple times, rewind to the part where the prof started speaking gibberish and watch it until you understand what the heck he's talking about. You can also choose a university where the courses are taught by professors and not TAs. I've had all of my classes taught by the professor. If you choose to pursue a degree either in person or online, good luck!

Managers like you are the best. I love you guys!

[Anonymous Coward]

I really appreciate the approach that you guys take when making hiring decisions. Managers like you have been nothing but beneficial for me.

You guys, having no degree or formal education yourselves, are completely intimidated by anyone with a degree. You fear hiring such people, because even a new graduate will quickly show how little you truly know. Sure, you'll spew out nonsense about people with degrees being "unmotivated" or "having money to waste" or some gibberish like that. But in reality it's because they are better than you, and you know it, but you're so damn scared to admit this.

So when it comes to building your team, you hire PHP "programmers" and Ruby "software developers" with no formal training of any sort. They'll create huge messes rife with performance problems, security flaws, poor design, and end-user inefficiency. Usually, the startup quickly goes under. In the rare case when the startup succeeds, it'll quickly become apparent that you and your team are causing more problems than you're eliminating.

Sensible upper management will then can you and your team, and bring in a consultant like me and my team, usually at a premium. Given that we are professionals with real education (yes, that means at least a bachelor's degree) and training, we know what we're doing. We clean up all the problems that you have created. Lucky for us, by the time we're done doing that, you, or one of the other anti-education/anti-competence managers like you has gone and created a new mess for us at some other company.

Your incompetence is great for me and my colleagues. We make far more money fixing your mistakes than we would if we just did the work in the first place.

Re:Been there done that

[Anonymous Coward]

In my capacity as someone with a real degree who occasionally reviews resumes, I blackball people who try stunts like this. The engineering profession has no use for this kind of unethical person.

Re:old college system sucks for on going education

[evanism]

Spot on.

My brother and I are 18 months apart. I took on IT and he as a carpenter.

At 40, he has over taken me.

I *was* on 200k+ for 10 years but couldn't handle the pressure. He runs his own biz, take his own jobs and just grinds along. Cruises. A small biz and he kills me.

He has no degree, no BA/MA, no MBA, no PHD. I have most, plus appallingly good experience in the industry, but cant get a job...... He can spend 20k and get the best tools in the biz.

He says he can't keep up. Can't get enough people. Turns down jobs.

Makes me wonder why the hell I've done what I have. 40, I'm over the hill. 40, he has just started!