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Ask Slashdot: How Is Online Engineering Coursework Viewed By Employers?
New submitter KA.7210 writes "I am an employed mechanical engineer, having worked with the same company since graduation from college 5 years ago. I am looking to increase my credentials by taking more engineering courses, potentially towards a certificate or a full master's degree. Going to school full time is not an option, and there is only one engineering school near me that offers a program that resembles what I wish to study, and also has the courses at night. Therefore, I have begun to look at online options, and it appears there are many legitimate, recognizable schools offering advanced courses in my area of interest. My question to Slashdot readers out there is: how do employers view degrees/advanced credentials obtained online, when compared to the more typical in-person education? Does anyone have specific experience with this situation? The eventual degree itself will have no indication that it was obtained online, but simple inference will show that it was not likely I maintained my employment on the east coast while attending school in-person on the west coast. I wish to invest my time wisely, and hope that some readers out there have experience with this issue!"
Over here good educational institutions are certified and registered.
I know from first hand experience my boss is willing to pick up the tab for further education providing he sees the advantage of it and you stay for another two years.
It is common a new employer would pay off any remaining expenses for the course when you change job before the end of the payback period.
In short, ask your own boss what he thinks of a particular course.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
Once you have experience and a track record, that matters far more than what school or degree or GPA you had (the exception being ivory tower institutions where they protect their own). How those courses are looked on depends more on you than on wherever they came from.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
At my last employer, where I was involved in the technical half of resume screening and candidate evaluations, online courses weren't worth very much in the early stages. The problem is that the quality of the programs varies so widely that it's best for the screener to just ignore them. Yes, there are diamonds in the rough, but you don't have enough time to go do the research, so you mentally block that part out and continue on. It's not particularly fair, but when you have 500 resumes to work through in a day, you have to come up with a fast system.
Now, if you make it into the later rounds and it comes down to you versus someone who hasn't demonstrated that drive to better themselves and their career? Yeah, I'd take the time to go look up the online program, any graduation statistics it published, etc.
Been there, done that.
how do employers view degrees/advanced credentials obtained online, when compared to the more typical in-person education? Does anyone have specific experience with this situation? The eventual degree itself will have no indication that it was obtained online, but simple inference will show that it was not likely I maintained my employment on the east coast while attending school in-person on the west coast
No one cares. If you get a job, it'll be from contacts and portfolio, more or less. HR won't care as long as the checkbox is checked off and they get a transcript.
I went to a "regional" U with multiple sub-campuses (campii?). I attended only online classes, although there was a sub-campus maybe only a half hour drive away. No, I did not commute 2 hours each way every day to the main campus. Maybe they'll get the same idea about your school?
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
So there needs to be a better way for "experienced" people to pick up new skills in faster way then going back to college for 2-4 years and some times even having to retake gen edu's + filler classes. No there should be stuff like other trades where you can go to a trade school and drop into classes that will get you the newer skills.
Also there lack of courses at night in most colleges. Now is that engineering school a tech / trade school? so that is also a issues as HR takes a poor view of some tech schools even when they are more on point and have better class times then a older college. But on the other side I have heard on jobs paying there workers to take University of Phoenix classes. So this is a HR issue and a issues of trying to fit the old college system into today's tech word.
Also some colleges make you buy meal plans and some time room and board now why should some who has there own place and is working have to pay for all of that as well?
Now continuing education should not just be BA, MA, PHD, MBA, POST DOC it should be drop in classes with not makeing you retake gen edu's or have to take a load of filler classes.
Any sort of extra education is great, I encourage everyone to get smarter, but getting your PE stamp would do the best for your career, that's something that NO employer can disregard.
I'm not suggesting that it's "one or the other", I'm suggesting that you use any online or offline education to get a professional credential that's recognized by states or professional societies. For the ME, it's getting your PE stamp. Like a lawyer passing the bar or a doctor passing their boards, the PE is something that no employer can ignore.
At one equipment manufacturer that I worked for, only a couple of the engineers had their PE, and they were usually moved up to "senior engineer" or "vice-president of engineering" pretty quickly, the rest of us were kept down and encouraged not to get too uppity...
Mod parent up. As an employer at a small business, if I value a four-year bachelors degree at a university at, say, a 10, then I would value a degree of the same name obtained online as about a 2, partially because of introp's observation that the quality is all over the place and is an unknown; and partially, I admit, due to personal unfamiliarity.
Business (HR specifically) doesn't give a shit about your degree. They care about a) that you have the checkbox, b) who you worked for previously and are not lying about it, and c) whether it looks like you aren't a total fuckup who will cost them. It's about risk avoidance.
The actual team you interview with (if it wasn't an HR drone) cares that you look like you know your shit and can carry your weight.
Engineering and especially computer degrees are such a total crapshoot on the skills you get in a candidate, that they don't know how to weigh your degree. Even degrees from badass schools sometimes come with folks who still can't code their way out of a wet paper bag. Besides, most of that senior level theory stuff in the degree won't help you much in a real world job until the late stages of your career, and will piss off your peers who don't have the same background, and definitely piss off management, who barely understands what a linked list is.
The quality of in person versus remote will depend on your learning style, and whether you actually would make use of those in-person office hours anyway.
"degree."
Why the quotes? They're all pieces of paper.
The degree is only as valuable as the accreditation and reputation of the issuing institution.
1. Are you taking the additional classes to learn additional material because YOU want to?
Then it does not matter how the school is viewed. You're in it for the material.
2. Are you taking the additional classes as a "stepping stone" to an additional degree / classes that you want to take?
Again, you're in it for the material so don't worry.
3. Are you looking for something to build up your resume?
Then look for what schools have the best reputations and work around their requirements. You're in it for the school name in that case.
But don't confuse any of those items. If it HAPPENS that your choice will fit more than one category, great. But if not, then keep your focus on your primary goal.
And to reiterate the parent post, once you have your first job your work history matters far, Far, FAR more than what courses you took (are taking) or what your GPA was (is).
And since you've already stated that you have your first engineering job ...
I've personally been *demoted* for asking about funding continuous education!
My manager was OK with it, he even submitted the request to HR, who then submitted it to his boss for approval. His boss had an issue with it, and came to me and said, "If you think you need additional education, you're not as sharp as we need you to be." and then, since Texas is an at-will state (as in, they can fire you, at will, for any reason any time), I was summarily dismissed.
I'm sure this happens everywhere. I read your post as Insightful, not Funny. Your WHOOOSH was just disappointing.
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Howdy.
I'm a VP of technology for several companies, and have been in a position to hire software, network, and system engineers since at least 1997. In all honesty, neither I, nor any of the people who've reported to me, ever paid much attention about where someone went to school, what their actual degree was, or whether they had earned some honor -- as long as the guy could deliver. From certs to prestigious schools, we never really bothered. Eventually I found out that I had a couple of MIT grads and at least one Stanford kid. I also had a pile of people whose degrees were awarded by foreign universities (including my own) and really... nobody really cares.
If you have the skills and you have the work experience, then you should be fine.
Right now I sit on the tech board for a couple of companies in Europe and the US, and I'm driving the technology at a very large social network with dev operations in the UK and Russia. I do notice that Europeans pay more attention to "schooling" and "degrees" and "titles" than US companies do, but not by much. My former employers and clients include some of the largest companies in Silicon Valley, rest of the US, Europe, Japan, and Mexico. The only occasions when I had to produce some kind of official proof of education were:
* When getting my US labor certification (1991... long time ago...), and when getting my Russian labor certification (last year) -- bureaucrats just love the fsck-ng paperwork
* When applying for a US federal job -- even then, they clarified that all they care about is whether I completed the degree or whether it was accredited, the date, and some accreditation equivalence since my degrees are from foreign institutions
Pro Tip: see if your employer will pitch in for part or whole course. Tech departments have educational budgets ranging from a couple of hundred dollars/year for books per employee, to full scholarships. I've auth'd books, on-line courses, conferences, PIM, and university courses for my peeps many times in the past. Check that out with your supervisor or with HR. A lot of people don't realize the option might be there -- and, if others in your group aren't taking advantage of it, your manager may be amiable to extend your budget a bit more (since money she doesn't spend is money she may have to cut next year).
So -- get your education wherever you can as long as they are legit, kick some butt, take names, and good luck in your career advancement!
Cheers!
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I can only talk from what I have seen and done, but in the UK we have a online university called the Open university which is generally well regarded. That is not to say that all employers will provide the same respect as say a MSc from Oxford or Cambridge(Actually a side point, a MSc from Oxford or Cambridge is generally worthless since they will award you one for just staying alive after your BSc), but a lot of managers I know got their MBA's from the Open University so they know its value.
Generally most qualifications especially technical ones really show nothing about once you left university Any attempt to continue your education and extend your skills and knowledge should be valued by your present and future employer. If not you are working for the wrong company.
Choose your allies carefully, it is highly unlikely you will be held accountable for the actions of your enemies
I agree to a degree (no pun intended), however I have some observations.
... but most of all I enjoyed seeing how ignorant and misinformed I had been about business perspectives and business school. For example marketing was not about snake oil and psychological cons as my inner engineer would have expected, it was about how to conduct a survey to get real rankings of customer preferences (which may differ from self identified preferences), how to construct a mathematical model of the existing market, how to introduce a new product with new features into that market and see how the market adapts, etc. In other words how to develop an educated guess at expected market share of something new, I used to believe they just pulled such numbers out of ... the air. This is just one example of many.
Getting a Masters in the same field as a Bachelors may not be worth it **unless** you work or hope to work in the area you do your research. Personally I have no regrets getting a MS Comp Sci but my employer paid for everything except parking and we were located literally next door to the university.
Are you targeting a specific employer? For example if you wanted to work for the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) is Pasadena, California it may be very advantageous to work on a Masters at the neighboring university, Cal Poly Pomona. Your department may have professors affiliated or consulting with JPL, JPL interns or otherwise employs students from the university, etc.
As an undergraduate I had the conversation about getting a Masters with a fellow Comp Sci major. I was undecided. He commented an MBA would be far more useful. I laughed and couldn't imagine doing that. Many years later I did go to business school, again next door to work (the university is well ranked) and with employer support. After many years on the job focusing exclusively on engineering and technical issues I really enjoyed learning new and different thing, understanding other parts of the organization, understanding their perspective and concerns so that I could communicate more effectively with them
I'd recommend looking into an MBA. Its probably not at all what one expects and it probably is more valuable to scientists and engineers than more degrees in their existing fields. As you become more senior you need to interact, understand and effectively communicate with others outside of science and engineering. I think an MBA helps in this regard.
I've been working towards my masters of science in computer science degree since 2007 (one class at a time takes forever). I started taking classes remotely at a remote television site at my employer. I later left that employer and got a job somewhere that didn't have access to those remote television sites, so I started taking the classes online. Since I started, I'm now at my third company, and all three have been more than willing to pay for my courses. In fact, that's probably the most telling point for whether anyone is going to take your courses seriously: is your company willing to pay for the classes. My advice is only take classes from a public or private university with a real physical campus, and only universities you would consider attending in person if you lived nearby.
Now, having taken courses remotely for several years, let me forewarn you about online learning:
Now going online also puts you in the driver's seat when it comes to choosing your institution. You get to pick from many more universities than are likely to be proximate to where you live. You can watch lectures multiple times, rewind to the part where the prof started speaking gibberish and watch it until you understand what the heck he's talking about. You can also choose a university where the courses are taught by professors and not TAs. I've had all of my classes taught by the professor. If you choose to pursue a degree either in person or online, good luck!
something clever
I really appreciate the approach that you guys take when making hiring decisions. Managers like you have been nothing but beneficial for me.
You guys, having no degree or formal education yourselves, are completely intimidated by anyone with a degree. You fear hiring such people, because even a new graduate will quickly show how little you truly know. Sure, you'll spew out nonsense about people with degrees being "unmotivated" or "having money to waste" or some gibberish like that. But in reality it's because they are better than you, and you know it, but you're so damn scared to admit this.
So when it comes to building your team, you hire PHP "programmers" and Ruby "software developers" with no formal training of any sort. They'll create huge messes rife with performance problems, security flaws, poor design, and end-user inefficiency. Usually, the startup quickly goes under. In the rare case when the startup succeeds, it'll quickly become apparent that you and your team are causing more problems than you're eliminating.
Sensible upper management will then can you and your team, and bring in a consultant like me and my team, usually at a premium. Given that we are professionals with real education (yes, that means at least a bachelor's degree) and training, we know what we're doing. We clean up all the problems that you have created. Lucky for us, by the time we're done doing that, you, or one of the other anti-education/anti-competence managers like you has gone and created a new mess for us at some other company.
Your incompetence is great for me and my colleagues. We make far more money fixing your mistakes than we would if we just did the work in the first place.
...the name of the school on the diploma doesn't really matter for technical positions. It's much more about the contacts you can make from the interaction with other students at the school or what contacts the instructors have because they also do consulting work on the side.
Actually, I say screw the master's degree in Engineering. If you want to get somewhere, get an MBA. It will be completely useless piece of paper, but it's how you show employers that an Engineer can also be a Manager.
Might be over-generalizing just a tad there...
I taught myself to program in high school, mostly by reading the PDP-8 Assembly Language Handbook over and over until I figured out what the hell they were talking about. The only CS or programming class I ever took was "Introduction to Computer Science" my first year in college, where the language used was, believe it or not, Algol 60. I hated it mostly because I was much more interested in working on the retargetable assembler/disassembler system I had designed and the classwork was a distraction from that. The year after that I was assigned to a project to write the back end of a FORTRAN compiler for a MIL-SPEC computer, where I designed and implemented the register allocator and part of the code generator. The year after that I was assigned to a different project, where I wrote the printer subsystem for a block diagram editor. That I didn't enjoy much because once again I was more interested my own work, which happened to be a symbolic algebra library that could be easily integrated with various numerical analysis and graphics libraries. That eventually morphed into a commercial product.
I've published several articles on computer science, and I also contributed one of the exercises that appears in TAOCP Volume 4A (which references one of my articles).
I'm also a coauthor of the MIME standard. These days I my main job is architect of a high-end MTA.
Of course the plural of anecdote is not data, but several of the best architects and coders I know have a similar appalling lack of credentials.