Slashdot Mirror


Remembering Sealab

An anonymous reader writes "'Some people remember Sealab as being a classified program, but it was trying not to be,' says Ben Hellwarth, author of the new book Sealab: America's Forgotten Quest to Live and Work on the Ocean Floor, which aims to 'bring some long overdue attention to the marine version of the space program.' In the 1960s, the media largely ignored the efforts of America's aquanauts, who revolutionized deep-sea diving and paved the way for the underwater construction work being done today on offshore oil platforms. It didn't help that the public didn't understand the challenges of saturation diving; in a comical exchange a telephone operator initially refuses to connect a call between President Johnson and Aquanaut Scott Carpenter, (who sounded like a cartoon character, thanks to the helium atmosphere in his pressurized living quarters). But in spite of being remembered as a failure, the final incarnation of Sealab did provide cover for a very successful Cold War spy program."

138 comments

  1. Helium atmosphere? by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 5, Funny

    I guess that explains Hesh's voice.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:Helium atmosphere? by default+luser · · Score: 1

      Heshopolis is off the hook baby!

      Go on! Hump her! Make a bear-affe... or a giraffabear!

      --

      Man is the animal that laughs.
      And occasionally whores for Karma.

  2. Fignuts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Fignuts

  3. Stimutacs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    It's like a koala bear crapped a rainbow in my brain!

    1. Re:Stimutacs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Golf sucks. Hesh wants to go to the Nineteenth Hole. Hesh wants jalapeno poppers. Hesh wants poppers.

    2. Re:Stimutacs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hesh wants some sex.

    3. Re:Stimutacs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's not bears.

  4. The ocean frontier - not by Animats · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There was the idea in the 1960s that the ocean was as important a frontier as space. There was talk of undersea cities. Today, zilch. There are pretty renderings of underwater hotels on the web, but none of them actually got built. The one "underwater hotel" in the world is a recycled two room research habitat.

    Drilling wells in the ocean floor is a big business, but that's about as far as it's gone.

    1. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Volante3192 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Space, sadly, doesn't even have oil exploration going for it.

    2. Re:The ocean frontier - not by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Arguably, deep-ish ocean has most of the same things going against it that space does, but with the additional(advantage or disadvantage depends on your opinion) that there is a much 'smoother' gradient between terrestrial work and deep-ocean work than there is between land and space.

      With a mixture of robots and things on strings, you can exploit much of the economically interesting stuff below the water surface without any long term human habitation. Where that isn't possible(certain construction projects related to drilling, some salvage work, having a fleet of nuclear submarines ready to get their second-strike on with extreme prejudice...) you do, indeed, find people. Generally very expensive ones; but available if you are suitably motivated.

      The cost of entry starts at nearly zero, pick up a fishing line at your nearest sporting goods shop, and just keeps going up, more or less smoothly(but very, very fast at the high end) for how deep you want to go and how long you want to go there. That's the kicker: For any cool undersea scheme, you can probably cook up a scheme with 90% of the benefits at much lower cost just by not going as deep or by not staying there as long. It doesn't help that many of the technologies you would need to live successfully underwater could be applied more easily and more pleasantly to existing untapped options.

      Want to live on seafood and algae, in a hamster-habitube, in a hostile environment where you can't drink the water? No problem, we have loads of coastal desert where you can desalinate to your heart's content, and won't even have to breath trimix all the time!

    3. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 2

      I don't think a lot of people are clamoring to live on the ocean floor. On a continental shelf would be bad enough. It's not an easy life, expensive and pretty risky. There are remotely operated vehicles and other machines to do the drilling for oil and related work.

    4. Re:The ocean frontier - not by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      You guys laugh now, but of all places to find pockets of oil and natural gas in space, Mars is our closest workable candidate.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    5. Re:The ocean frontier - not by nospam007 · · Score: 3, Informative

      "...but none of them actually got built. The one "underwater hotel" in the world is a recycled two room research habitat. "

      Phew, glad that the guys in the link below don't know that. (Top 5 underwater hotels)
      http://blog.hotelclub.com/top-five-underwater-hotels/

    6. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I don't think a lot of people are clamoring to live on the ocean floor. "

      Why not? What could possibly happen?
      Will the guys upstairs pumping thousands of tons of radioactive water upon us?
      No way!

    7. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Canazza · · Score: 1

      It's not like everyone will turn on each other in order to feast on sweet sweet Magical Shrimp.

      --
      It pays to be obvious, especially if you have a reputation for being subtle.
    8. Re:The ocean frontier - not by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Funny

      You know, I really hate rational people sometimes....

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    9. Re:The ocean frontier - not by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      The same could be said for space, there are a load of satellites and a single manned space station for research but there are no space cities or space hotels, there have only been 6 manned landings on the moon and afaict no human has left LEO since.

      The fact is both space and deep ocean are hostile environments. Space has the additional issue of being extremely expensive to get to and from.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    10. Re:The ocean frontier - not by petermgreen · · Score: 4, Informative

      Going through the list there
      Jules Undersea Lodge: a converted two bedroom research facility. Located in a lake 21 feet down. Dive entry.
      Utter Inn: a box just below the surface with surface entry not much different from the lower sections of a boat except there is water between the upper and lower sections. Only one room.
      Hydropolis: looks like it was intended to be a proper hotel though only barely underwater and surface entry but the article you linked claims it as "under construction" but wikipedia links to another article that claims it is "nothing more than a pile of blueprints". Looks like it got nixed in the wake of the credit crunch.
      Poseidon Undersea Resorts: this does actually sound like an undersea hotel but from their website it is not at all clear whether it was ever finished or not. Trying to get a "booking request form" out of their website gives the message "Thank you for your interest in Poseidon Resorts. We welcome you to contact us after September 15, 2009.". This suggests the website hasn't been updated in years.
      Istanbul: I can't find any evidence of this underwater hotel actually exiting either.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    11. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      You guys laugh now, but of all places to find pockets of oil and natural gas in space, Mars is our closest workable candidate.

      Really ? I think you'll find Uranus is a more prodigious source of natural gas.

    12. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, the link is from Hotel Club, and the first rule of Hotel Club is...

    13. Re:The ocean frontier - not by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2, Funny

      Istanbul: I can't find any evidence of this underwater hotel actually exiting either.

      Not Constantinople?

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    14. Re:The ocean frontier - not by flyingsquid · · Score: 4, Insightful
      You've got to be joking. It wouldn't matter even if there were oceans of high grade crude oil on the moon. Look at the Saturn V- the entire thing is one big fuel canister, with an engine on the bottom, and a little crew capsule on top. They burned that entire canister's worth of fuel just to get that tiny little Apollo module to the Moon and back. Moving a mining operation into space, and then moving fuel out of a gravity well- even a shallow one like the Moon- is going to burn far more than you could ever transport; it's a losing proposition. To move fuel economically you need something like an oil tanker or a train- a vehicle that moves vast quantities of fuel, while burning only a little bit of fuel itself. And to do that, you'd need something like a highly efficient fusion engine, or some kind of fantastic Star Trek technology. And if you had that technology, why would you need to get fuel from space?

      The same goes for pretty much any resource except maybe gold. It takes a huge amount of resources to go to space and back. The only way it's profitable is if the resources you bring back are more expensive than the resources you expend building and launching the rocket. Until that changes- until there's some radical change in launch technology that makes space travel cheaper — not by a factor of two or three, but orders of magnitude cheaper — the idea of resource extraction in space isn't even science fiction, it's fantasy.

      That's the real reason that undersea colonies and space colonies didn't happen. It's definitely technologically possible, but it's just not economically possible.

    15. Re:The ocean frontier - not by turing_m · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's nothing compared with the hate that the irrational can have for imaginary people. But most people in the real world simply don't like dealing with such complex issues.

      --
      If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
    16. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Rich0 · · Score: 5, Informative

      One REALLY big difference between undersea and space is air pressure. If you want people to be living near 1atm of pressure then in space you have to deal with at most 1atm of pressure on your hull. Underwater you're dealing with more than 1atm of pressure before you reach depths on par with a big swimming pool. That means you need a lot less structural strength in your spacecraft.

      All the messing around with gas mixtures undersea is about trying to work at higher pressures to cut down on that disadvantage, but it gets really messy - people are designed to live at 1atm on 20% O2. In space that is fairly easy to provide, and deep underwater it is almost impossible.

      Now, in space you have lots of other issues to deal with I'll grant you, and the cost of moving around is pretty high too (well, maneuver in space is cheaper per mile than underwater, except that stuff is thousands of miles apart so you do a LOT more of it and once you're close to a gravity well you build up kinetic/potential energy and changing your energy state is much harder). Underwater you can just use buoyancy to do half the work.

    17. Re:The ocean frontier - not by dbc · · Score: 1

      Of course. For imaginary and complex issues you don't want irrationals, you want transcendentals: e and pi.

    18. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The main reason all of those "big ideas" suddenly went away in the 70's was because President Johnson's "Great Society" programs exploded in cost and we could no longer afford to spend money on research like we previously had. In the intervening decades the expense of social programs has multiplied many times to the point we can't afford any kind of space program even unless we borrow money to pay for it. The future is indeed grim. Just imagine what we could have accomplished by now if we hadn't decided to go the socialism route. We've spent at least $16 TRILLION dollars on social programs and the percentage of people in poverty has barely changed. Imagine what we could have done in space, the ocean, research, etc. with that kind of money.

    19. Re:The ocean frontier - not by JoeMerchant · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Do you remember how efficiently crude oil was harvested and refined 100 years ago? I wouldn't be surprised if the early wells achieved 10% extraction of the available raw material.

      All we need to get lunar petroleum back to Earth is a space elevator pipeline, (relatively) easy to build on the moon, and if you pump it fast enough, it will get slung out the other end with more energy than you are pumping into it. Then we just have to catch it as it free falls toward Earth and give it a safe re-entry, again, Space Elevators seem like the way to go, and you can run some pretty nice generating turbines capturing the kinetic energy of the falling petroleum.

      Anyone who believes the above is serious needs to check their humor sensors... on the other hand, using space elevators to lower raw materials from orbit just might be a good way to power mass up to orbit...

    20. Re:The ocean frontier - not by lostthoughts54 · · Score: 1

      or a space elevator of some kind. I believe designs for that have been in the works for years and is only limited by carbon nanotube length. We are getting better and better at making longer tubes but the lengths we need for the elevator is a long way off. Granted this is from memory of a article i read in a NG magazine in high school but the idea is the trip will take a few days(which i think would be much lower if not transporting living things) and will end on a landing platform in low earth orbit. At this point taking off and landing become trivial.

    21. Re:The ocean frontier - not by JoeMerchant · · Score: 4, Informative

      I think that undersea conditions are actually more challenging than Space, at least LEO Space. You've got a terrible corrosion problem underwater, typically saturation level humidity, and the pressure differential to a "shirtsleeve" environment is higher as soon as you get below 60' (at 30' depth, you can saturation dive indefinitely with no special gasses and no decompression needed...), and then there's the mixed gas / decompression thing if you want to run your environment at a higher pressure to make a larger hull practical.

      A blowout in the space-station can be plugged with duct tape (from the inside)... a blowout in an undersea habitat at 100' depth is considerably harder to deal with.

      It is a shorter trip to "the undersea world," but the challenges pile up very quickly as you go down.

    22. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, all you need to deal with is 0 psi of pressure gradient underwater.

    23. Re:The ocean frontier - not by drmofe · · Score: 1

      Your point would be wonderfully made, if not for the fact that Earth is at the bottom of the gravity well and the Moon is near the top. If there was crude oil on the moon (or any other useful energy-bearing ore), all that would be needed would be to get it to free-return trajectory, which is a whole lot less than raising it to LEO from Earth.

    24. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I did a list some time ago, just to inventory how many actual underwater destinations there are and came away with about a dozen. There's more than you're aware of, and they are already built. The Ithaa is an all glass panoramic undersea restaurant (1atm, in just 15 feet of water) the Huvafen Fushi undersea spa is another 1atm facility, concrete hull, big picture windows, perhaps 20 feet underwater. The Red Sea Star is a more ambitious undersea restaurant, 30 feet deep, concrete hull, wraparound segmented window panels, lots of interior space. There's also the Aquarius, America's undersea research lab, Marinelab (in the same cove as the Jules) and Baylab, still active in Chesapeake bay. If you also count general public access undersea observatories there's one in Australia, one in Eilat, Israel and more than one in China.

    25. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think a lot of people are clamoring to live on the ocean floor.

      You might be surprised. www.underseacolony.com

    26. Re:The ocean frontier - not by wagnerrp · · Score: 2

      You've got to be joking. A +5 Insightful for that? The Moon has no meaningful atmosphere. That means all those friction problems with magnetic launch systems no longer apply. You use a linear motor to get you up to whatever speed you need to be going, and then just coast the rest of the way. At our current utility costs, you would be looking at a couple $/kg to put something into Lunar transfer orbit, and maybe a few dozen $/kg for enough fuel for a LEO insertion burn, although that could be cut down significantly with aerobraking.

      At our current technology, there really isn't much of worth on the Moon for use on Earth. There is huge worth as a materials source for anything you might want to do in space.

    27. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Moving a mining operation into space, and then moving fuel out of a gravity well- even a shallow one like the Moon- is going to burn far more than you could ever transport; it's a losing proposition. To move fuel economically you need something like an oil tanker or a train- a vehicle that moves vast quantities of fuel, while burning only a little bit of fuel itself. And to do that, you'd need something like a highly efficient fusion engine, or some kind of fantastic Star Trek technology. And if you had that technology, why would you need to get fuel from space?

      How about something 1,000,000 times more dense than carbon fuels? Sounds star-trek like to me. The catch? It's dangerous and risky (psychologically), until we find a cure for all cancers. Practical fusion would be a fantastic, unbelievably awesome breakthrough, but it would only provide ~3 times the gravimetric energy density of fission-based fuels. It does seem that with this star-trek like technology at our disposal today, it would be insane to use it to mine utterly inferior (except arguably safer) fuels from the nearby cosmos, but given the risk factors, I wouldn't be that surprised to see it happen.

    28. Re:The ocean frontier - not by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      People just liked it better that way...

    29. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's not really true, only some of these thing is open in the bottom, others have airlooks.

      and even if it's open in the bottom there will be a pressure difference. If there is 4 meters from the open bottom to the top there will be a 4 meters of water of pressure difference at the top and the surrounding water. (5.7 psi overpressure on the inside at the top, or about 0.4 atm of pressure difference).

      (The air pressure inside will be the same as the water pressure at the opening in the floor. On the outside 4 meters up there will be 4 meter less of water pressure, on the inside there is no water to push back down.)

    30. Re:The ocean frontier - not by DeathToBill · · Score: 3, Funny

      Hang on... moon... space elevator... YES! Let's move the moon to a geostationary orbit and use it as the other anchor for a space elevator!

      What could possibly go wrong?

      --
      Slashdot - News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters, in ISO-8859-1 Has just realised that beta makes this signature redundant
    31. Re:The ocean frontier - not by flyingfsck · · Score: 2

      The Moon is much closer than Mars and since all planets are made of the same schtuff, it should also have water, oil and gas just like all the other planets.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    32. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Gold is heavy. ITYM printer ink.

    33. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Coisiche · · Score: 1

      but of all places to find pockets of oil and natural gas in space, Mars is our closest workable candidate.

      I was under the impression that fossil fuels were a result of organic (i.e. formerly living) material getting compressed for a few million years. There is no evidence that the required quantities of life ever existed on Mars and nor (I believe) any evidence of the plate tectonics needed to compress it when it was dead.

    34. Re:The ocean frontier - not by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      If, and only if, you are content to breathe either some sort of liquid(maybe they've finally gotten those fluorocarbons worked out?) or some gas mix at whatever the pressure imposed by your depth is. Unfortunately, it appears that virtually all potential atmospheres are some flavor of toxic, narcotic, or both at any more than modest pressure.

      Also, "Dysbaric Osteonecrosis" is about as fun as it sounds, possibly less so.

    35. Re:The ocean frontier - not by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      The one (partially) compensatory factor is that getting mass roughly where you want it in the ocean is dirt cheap and relatively simple compared to getting it out of a gravity well. So, if you are prepared to massively overbuild, you can at least get your monstrosity delivered...

      Unfortunately, even if you are willing to massively overbuild, that doesn't solve the "But why?" problem: Living in a structure designed largely for its ability to survive massive pressure for any length of time would be a fairly horrid experience, and the inability to bring a human outside without truly alarming tech diving(or even have a structurally safe window), would likely leave you with a terribly expensive pressure-vessel full of hydronauts who spend their time operating the same ROVs and whatnot that they could just as easily be operating over a tether from a cheaper and vastly more pleasant surface support ship(or some sort of near-surface neutrally buoyant platform, if local weather is a problem)...

    36. Re:The ocean frontier - not by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      I've done calculations to show that picking up giant diamonds from the surface of Mars with a very optimistically priced robot wouldn't be profitable. The only possible resource that could be profitable to bring back from space would be He3 from the moon, for use in fusion power.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    37. Re:The ocean frontier - not by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      Do you remember how efficiently crude oil was harvested and refined 100 years ago? I wouldn't be surprised if the early wells achieved 10% extraction of the available raw material.

      All we need to get lunar petroleum back to Earth is a space elevator pipeline, (relatively) easy to build on the moon, and if you pump it fast enough, it will get slung out the other end with more energy than you are pumping into it. Then we just have to catch it as it free falls toward Earth and give it a safe re-entry, again, Space Elevators seem like the way to go, and you can run some pretty nice generating turbines capturing the kinetic energy of the falling petroleum.

      Anyone who believes the above is serious needs to check their humor sensors... on the other hand, using space elevators to lower raw materials from orbit just might be a good way to power mass up to orbit...

      Ok, now you've stopped laughing I guess in another 50 years we will have one.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    38. Re:The ocean frontier - not by JoeMerchant · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, I _can_ see some motivations for living in a habitat located on a 60' deep tropical coral reef.

      A) The cool factor of having fish right outside your window, oh, sorry, ummmm... access to do long term observations of marine fauna in their natural habitat, for research, yeah.

      B) relative protection from surface storms, although you'll need more than 60' depth for that in hurricane conditions.

      C) ready access to fresh seafood...

      D) no morning/evening commute to work: sorry man, I'm saturated, can't come up today.

      E) stable (non-moving) habitat to work in (relative to a ship.)

      F) in the 1960s, I'm sure they were also thinking natural Nuclear bomb shelter too.

      Yeah, very expensive just for those things, and important to our cash driven society is that you can't really generate anything of value more efficiently by living underwater to do it. Still, I think a 6000 square foot structure, with decent 8'+ ceilings, ample natural light in every room (bigger windows than terrestrial structures due to less light at depth), moon pool entry at about 25' depth (internal pressure ~+12.5psi), hella powerful A/C system to keep the humidity at bay, ROV spearfishing system, and some kind of self-sufficient ocean generated energy system would make a decent working platform for 3-4 people to study, well, ocean generated energy systems for one thing. I could also see studying underwater building materials (3d printing with underwater concrete?) and any number of other things related to sustainable ocean dwelling.

      Thing is, it looks like a playtime project, so nobody will fund it, even if it would generate useful spinoff tech, and waste less resources than any number of less visible pork projects.

      Oh, and a random thought: how much water (ice) would it take to effectively shield a Earth-Mars shuttle from radiation? And, could we collect asteroids/comets to put together an ice-ball big enough to put a nice transit lounge habitat (not too dissimilar from the undersea habitat mentioned above, except that the fish will be frozen) into an Earth-Mars figure 8 orbit? Think solar-powered ion engines instead of chemical reactions...

    39. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Talderas · · Score: 1

      We did build a city under the ocean well. It was called Rapture. Unfortunately things went horribly horribly wrong and we never again endeavored to build another.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    40. Re:The ocean frontier - not by tgd · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's not really true, only some of these thing is open in the bottom, others have airlooks.

      BTW, you have that exactly backwards. If you have an opening at the bottom of a submersible, you eliminate ANY issue with water pressure on the structure. (Because the water coming in the opening will pressurize the air to the same pressure -- the hull then has no pressure differential between inside and outside.) Of course, the oxygen in the air you breathe becomes toxic, and the nitrogen does bad things to you. (woo hoo! Narcosis!)

      If you want to maintain 1atm inside, your structure now has to handle the differential between inside and outside, and be rigid enough to not compress. At 30 feet depth, you need to handle a 14psi differential (which is greater than the pressure differential you get from an atomic blast! That's why even at 30 ft, you need fairly thick steel to handle the pressure.

    41. Re:The ocean frontier - not by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      using space elevators to lower raw materials from orbit just might be a good way to power mass up to orbit...

      Ok, now you've stopped laughing I guess in another 50 years we will have one.

      Yeah, 50 years ago "skyscrapers OMG 100 stories tall!!!" were impressive, it's time to take the game to the next level.

    42. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      There is no pressure gradient in space either, as long as you're willing to put your crew in an evacuated living area. If you want your crew to be living in 1atm of pressure, then you have a HUGE pressure issue underwater.

      Most of the solutions are to have people breathe something different - like various mixtures with much lower concentrations of O2 and N2 so that at huge pressures people can sorta breathe them. However, so far all these mixtures have problems with them. In space they actually do the opposite - crank up the concentration of O2 and lower the pressure - which people generally tolerate better and it is easier on the pressure vessel. However, as learned by the Apollo program that doesn't always work great when you're on the ground at 1atm.

    43. Re:The ocean frontier - not by White+Yeti · · Score: 1

      I saw a presentation on NASA's current thoughts on shielding, but didn't take notes so I can't quote specifics. The shielding choices they listed were water, polyethylene, and liquid hydrogen. The LH2 was the most effective and thinnest shield. A water shield for an Earth-Mars trip was something like 1-3 meters thick and not thought to be practical for launch from Earth. Someone did suggest captured "comet cores" as the best source of a water shield.

    44. Re:The ocean frontier - not by pscottdv · · Score: 1

      The problem with Apollo 1 was that they simulated 3psi of pure oxygen overpressure in space by using 18psi of pure oxygen in the capsule while it was at sea-level. At 18psi of pure oxygen almost guaranteed an uncontrolled, exothermic oxidation reaction (i.e. fire). If the engineers involved had spent more time with the engineers working on Sealab, they wouldn't have made such an elementary mistake.

      --

      this signature has been removed due to a DMCA takedown notice

    45. Re:The ocean frontier - not by shadowrat · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the intolerable giant squid attacks.

    46. Re:The ocean frontier - not by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      10 feet thick, say we want 50,000 cubic feet of shielded volume, that's a cube about 37' per side, so 47' external dimension, round up and call it 6 plates 50x50x10, 150,000 cubic feet of shield - weighing 4.25 million kg - that would be 36 Saturn V launches to get the water up to LEO... yeah, it'll be more fun to track down water bearing asteroids, even though launch costs of $40B aren't really that high, for the cost of the Iraq war we could have launched 20 of these water shields.

    47. Re:The ocean frontier - not by WastedMeat · · Score: 2

      You missed his point about the opening. It equalizes the internal air pressure to the water pressure at the bottom of the structure. There is still a relatively small pressure differential due to the varying water pressure along the height of the structure. The ceiling would have to tolerate expansive forces. Since the water pressure is linear with the depth though, the effect would be a property of the structure itself, not dependent on the depth at which the structure was placed.

    48. Re:The ocean frontier - not by clambake · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's commonly thought due to various imaging evidence that Titan basically has vast seas of petroleum sloshing around on it.

    49. Re:The ocean frontier - not by clambake · · Score: 1

      Diamonds are actually a worthless gemstone in terms of true scarcity. If not for the DeBeer's cartel, they would be worth the same as topaz.

    50. Re:The ocean frontier - not by AdamThor · · Score: 3, Informative

      BTW, you have that exactly backwards.

      hmmm I'm not sure he does? Consider:

      At 30 feet depth, you need to handle a 14psi differential
      This is your own statement, and (without checking your actual #) it's true, because water is so heavy (massive). But change your depth 30 ft in the atmosphere and there is relatively little pressure difference. You can go up and down in an elevator all day and you won't explode. This is because air is so light (lacking mass).

      The GP's point - I think - is that if you have a 30 foot tall underwater structure filled with pressurized gas, the pressure created by the water will be (by your number) 14psi greater at the bottom part than at the top part. But because the gas pressure differential is much less variant by depth the gas pressure at the top is the same as at the bottom. So you actually have to worry about blowing out the top of your open-on-the-bottom underwater highrise. There goes the whole 0 psi differential idea, but in the opposite direction one might expect. Maybe an easier problem to deal with (if you keep your structure squat), but still something to make sure the engineers account for.

      Unless I've got it all wrong?

      --
      -- "Oh. This guy again."
    51. Re:The ocean frontier - not by khallow · · Score: 1

      How about something with higher value for the mass, like knowledge? To throw out a crazy example, here's my scenario of a university on Mars.

      To summarize, you already start with a manned settlement that primarily science-focused. In other words, there's already someone burning money on closely related areas. The university idea is a value-add on top of that big expenditure.

      Replace some of the lower skilled jobs with students who effectively learn the equivalent of a master's degree in a limited selection of fields (basically something like astrogeology or engineering with a focus on Mars-based applications where being on the surface of another planet would actually give a learning edge over being on Earth). So in addition to whatever that colony generates in terms of scientific output, you'd also have some people with degrees of considerable value, perhaps several hundred thousand to a million dollars per graduate.

      And once the cost of bringing people to Mars drops low enough, you'd see paying customers. Ultimately, the goal would be to generate enough business from students and research to fund the settlement. That along with permanent residents effectively turns it into a colony.

    52. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Liquid ethane, methane, and propane are not "petroleum."

    53. Re:The ocean frontier - not by steveha · · Score: 1

      It wouldn't matter even if there were oceans of high grade crude oil on the moon. Look at the Saturn V- the entire thing is one big fuel canister

      You are perfectly correct that petroleum from space will never make sense with Saturn V technology.

      However, that huge canister of fuel was for lifting stuff out of Earth gravity. If you assume we have the infrastructure for petroleum collection in space, you should agree that it's a lot easier to convince a canister of petroleum to fall down to Earth than to lift hardware away from Earth. Gravity is helping you when it's time to deliver the cargo.

      So now the question is whether you can get that infrastructure in place. You don't want to try to do it the Saturn V way, where everything goes to space in one launch of a heavy lifter. You will want to send things up in pieces and assemble them in orbit; you will want a space station with fuel and oxygen and water storage, you will want spaceships that go from orbit to orbit and never enter atmosphere (build them right and they last a long time), you will want truly reusable "space pickup trucks" that can ferry small loads up from Earth to orbit, cheaply and reliably... in short, you want a rational set of building blocks, where each gram you lift out of Earth gravity gives you as much benefit as you can manage, vs. Saturn V where everything lifts in one launch and everything is thrown away after one launch.

      I don't know if petroleum will be that big a deal. But there's a lot of stuff out there in space, and it's easy for me to imagine it being mined. It's an old SF trope that space miners will build large parabolic mirrors and concentrate sunlight to smelt ore out of rocks, then deliver relatively pure hunks of metal to Earth. Maybe that will actually pencil out someday.

      steveha

      steveha

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    54. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The moon is tidally locked with earth which causes it to have a vary long day and making space elevators a pipe dream.

    55. Re:The ocean frontier - not by snadrus · · Score: 1

      We already have the tech to build space elevators or pipelines that would work on Mars (as well as mag-launchers). There's also sufficient raw materials to launch to space that could then become a container. If it's one-way (Mars to Earth only), then it's feasibility is much closer to reality.

      --
      Science & open-source build trust from peer review. Learn systems you can trust.
    56. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Formalin · · Score: 1

      Yeah, imagine what we could have done if we didn't quit taxing the rich.

    57. Re:The ocean frontier - not by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Aside from DeBeers control of the market, the diamonds that are in high demand are based off the four "C"s. Cut, Color, Clarity, and Carat. The diamonds that fall in the worst ranking of all categories are relegated to the industrial market (cutting, drilling, etc).

      I should know. I'm married.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    58. Re:The ocean frontier - not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have it all wrong. The gas inside the structure exerts a force because gas wants to fill all available volume. The force of the water at the bottom will prevent that. The gas inside will be compressed until an equillibrium is reached. Excess gas leaks out the bottom and the remaining gas will push back at the surrounding walls with the same force as they are pushed at.

    59. Re:The ocean frontier - not by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      Yeah, 50 years ago "skyscrapers OMG 100 stories tall!!!" were impressive, it's time to take the game to the next level.

      Absolutely. The NIAC Final report (Phase II) report talks about some remarkable possibilities and not as expensive as I expected ,about 4 billion in 2003 dollars from memory. Time for us to colonise the solar system, I can't see the human race getting any smaller.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  5. I remember THIS Sealab by Terranex · · Score: 4, Funny
    1. Re:I remember THIS Sealab by DataDiddler · · Score: 1

      I'm very glad I wasn't the only one whose first thought was of this show.

      --
      Working...
    2. Re:I remember THIS Sealab by Stormwatch · · Score: 2
    3. Re:I remember THIS Sealab by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Felt the same.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6ROXLtorwY

    4. Re:I remember THIS Sealab by EdIII · · Score: 1

      I had a memory error. I pulled up Johnny Quest in my head instead.

  6. Sekrit Canadian Locations by pipingguy · · Score: 4, Informative

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_Institute_of_Oceanography This is also the area where they keep the lone remaining Avro Arrow for further study, that Hydrofoil warship that we did and the telephone. It's all super-secret.

    1. Re:Sekrit Canadian Locations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I was an air cadet in my younger days so I had the opportunity to travel to various air bases around Canada. I've heard various stories about an intact Arrow; it was ditched in Cold Lake, AB, it's in a warehouse somewhere in Quebec, it was flown over the border and has been hidden by the Americans, etc.

      Probably the best story was from an older gentleman who claims to have been involved in the scrapping operation. He said every plane was cut up but not every piece was accounted for. The Canadian Aviation and Space Museum has the cockpit and nose section of RL-206 along with an Iroquois engine and some other bits because they were essentially stolen and hidden. It wouldn't surprise me if a complete airframe (albeit in pieces) is sitting in a warehouse somewhere.

  7. The next time .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The next when they call the Whitehouse with the helium voice, just tell them you're Papa Smurf calling the President telling him that they need talk to about his fling with Smurfette and the white stain on Smurfette's blue ass.

    Well, it worked from 1992 - 2001.

  8. I haven't forgotten by OzPeter · · Score: 4, Funny

    I remember Sealab 2021 very well

    --
    I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    1. Re:I haven't forgotten by sunderland56 · · Score: 2

      Came here to say exactly that. I can't believe the US Government based a research project on a cartoon.

    2. Re:I haven't forgotten by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The real question is: Would you put your brain into a robot body?

    3. Re:I haven't forgotten by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought it was why did my human dad put his human penis into my shark mom's shark vagina?

      -- Sharko

    4. Re:I haven't forgotten by artor3 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's time to move on. The team is now making Archer, which is fantastic.

    5. Re:I haven't forgotten by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some how I knew I'd come here and find useless man children saying something like this. Sigh.

    6. Re:I haven't forgotten by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's like a koala bear crapped a rainbow in my brain!

    7. Re:I haven't forgotten by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this is truth.

    8. Re:I haven't forgotten by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You obviously have irreparable brain damage.

    9. Re:I haven't forgotten by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, but I'd consider putting a robot body around my brain.

    10. Re:I haven't forgotten by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about BIZARRO ARCHER!??! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6ROXLtorwY)

    11. Re:I haven't forgotten by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lighten up, Francis!

    12. Re:I haven't forgotten by RevSpaminator · · Score: 1

      BIZARRO Quinn! "BIZARRO BIZARRO BIZARRO BIZARRO......" The razor sharp intellect will blow your mind!

  9. Doppelpopoulos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do you think that's Greek?

    (Seriously, one of the funniest things I've ever seen...)

  10. It's wasn't just the Sealab that was important by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...but the Sealaughter we all shared.

  11. Or on the other hand.... by Whiteox · · Score: 1

    I'd rather remember this version:
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064417/

    --
    Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
  12. I heard he's divorcing Heidi Klumlab . . . by wrencherd · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'm not sure that the fact that the "aquanauts" had funny-sounding voices when they were in their undersea, "synthetic-gas environment" is a sufficient explanation for the public and the media ignoring the Sealab programs.

    If the media and a cereal company could turn Kim Kardashian's cross-dressing step-dad into a symbol of American manhood, then Scott Carpenter's helium-induced impression of Felix the Cat could not really have been that big of a public relations problem.

  13. Seems a little like you`re hawking a book, /. by __aavqan3009 · · Score: 2

    Really?

    1. Re:Seems a little like you`re hawking a book, /. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Homophobe.

  14. SeaQuest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This show actually made me very interested in underwater exploration when I was young. It was a little over the top at points, but overall I think it was a quality show.

    1. Re:SeaQuest by PPH · · Score: 2

      Sea Hunt. Now get off my lawn, kid.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  15. Fond Memories by paleo2002 · · Score: 4, Funny

    My fondest memory of Sealab was when Hank got trapped under the orange soda machine . . .

    1. Re:Fond Memories by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My favorite is when Stormy keeps getting multiplied. It's dodge ball time, bitch. Does it hurt when I do this? How about this? This?

  16. Bioshock by This+is+my+user+name · · Score: 1

    I am so glad that it was canceled. We could be living in the world of bioshock now. That would really suck. Wireless signals under water are awe full.

    --
    I am a 5th level dwarven warrior. I have shuriken.
    1. Re:Bioshock by Hentes · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, if you happen to live near one of the undersea cabels...

    2. Re:Bioshock by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      Wireless signals under water are awe full.

      You mean sonar?

    3. Re:Bioshock by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or Xcom TFTD... anyone remember that?

    4. Re:Bioshock by Faw · · Score: 1

      Wireless signals under water are awe full.

      Did you meant to write "Wireless signals under water are terrible", or that "Wireless signals under water fill you with awe"?

    5. Re:Bioshock by This+is+my+user+name · · Score: 1

      It fills me with awe how awful wireless signals are.

      --
      I am a 5th level dwarven warrior. I have shuriken.
  17. Tastes good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Like America use to.

  18. Helium by tbird81 · · Score: 4, Informative

    He sounds like Yakky Doodle:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uaa9ZJ2KSoQ

    Divers sometimes use helium to replace some of the nitrogen. If you're at pressure, then the amount of nitrogen that goes into your blood stream can cause nitrogen narcosis. If you lower the partial pressure of N2 (by using He) then this is less likely.

    Helium also diffuses quicker than nitrogen. But this can mean that decompression is a bit more difficult.

    It talks about it a bit here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimix_(breathing_gas)

    1. Re:Helium by smellsofbikes · · Score: 1

      Out of curiosity: why helium rather than argon? Argon's dead cheap, dead common, and doesn't have anywhere nearly the diffusion-through-containment-systems problems helium has. Is there some drawback to it?

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
    2. Re:Helium by LanMan04 · · Score: 1

      Another interesting use for Helium in breathing gasses:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliox

      My wife had a super-duper-bad asthma attack a few years back and they had to use this gas to get Oxygen to her lungs.

      --
      With the first link, the chain is forged.
    3. Re:Helium by john.r.strohm · · Score: 1

      Argon is extremely narcotic, far more so than nitrogen. This makes it something you REALLY don't want to use in a breathing mix.

      However, it has better thermal properties than air, which is why serious divers use it to inflate their drysuits.

  19. Media ignored? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Mainstream magazines certainly covered it. That's how I knew about it as a kid. Hit Google Books with 'sealab popular' and select Full Version, for what ran in PopSci at the time.

    It wasn't anywhere near as big a deal as the Moon program, but it got very good coverage for a single science program. Off the top of my head I can't think of another back then that got as much other than the Moon race.

    I think it's hyperbole to say 'largely ignored'. There was a pretty good proportionate recognition. A little better than it deserved, arguably.

  20. That's Where You Went? by Niscenus · · Score: 0

    Really?

    See, as I look at it, burning petroleum from other planets on this one should make it even more Venusian than burning the pre-solar petroleum under the basaltic plains.

    I wonder if we'll see some steam-punk space travel of using our petroleum to get more petroleum elsewhere. Go us!

    --
    "Yeah...it was the numbers that were irrational, not the murderous cult of vegetarians...." -- Hippasus of Metapontum
    1. Re:That's Where You Went? by inasity_rules · · Score: 2

      How could you possibly miss a Uranus joke? Seriously?

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
  21. Too dangerous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Place was like a frickin' bomb on stilts. ;)

  22. So secret for so long by AHuxley · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ... and the tapping of communications cables.
    Civilian or military, analogue, digital ... somebody is always interested.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  23. The Most Annoying Problem... by IonOtter · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...was Athlete's Foot.

    The high-pressure, high-humidity atmosphere of the lab caused the fungi to spread like wildfire, to the point where it would spread to the entire body, and even cause a secondary bacterial infection with alarming ease.

    --
    [End Of Line]
  24. Space has fuel sources: ethane, methane, hydrogen by perpenso · · Score: 2

    Space, sadly, doesn't even have oil exploration going for it.

    However it could have something akin to natural gas exploration. Space has fuels such as ethane, methane, hydrogen, etc.

  25. The Truth Will Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "the final incarnation of Sealab did provide cover for a very successful Cold War spy program".

    'Nough said Dan'O. We are finished here.

  26. Archer is good by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 2

    But it doesn't have Harry Goz. And it still hasn't answered the real question at hand, which is would you put your brain in a robot body?

    Sealab 2021 is not forgotten.

    --
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
  27. Great by pipingguy · · Score: 1

    Did not RFTA, but this was wonderful.

    1. Re:Great by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      the fta is a book advert anyways.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  28. I remember when his mother saved him from drowing by hedronist · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Alan Krasberg, one of the researchers connected with Sealab, was the son of one of my mother's best friends, Tammy Krasberg. Apparently one afternoon Alan was testing some rebreathing equipment in the family pool. Tammy, who was reading a magazine pool-side, realized she hadn't seen any activity from him for awhile, so she put down her magazine, dove in, hauled him to the surface and, at least according to the story my mother told, gave him CPR. He revived and his mother went back to her magazine.

    I'm tempted to believe this since Tammy was one of the most unflappable people I have ever met.

  29. Aquanauts?!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Aquanaut. Water sailor. Isn't that a little redundant?

  30. Why the blatant ad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I come here for info, ads are on the side, not the stories themselves... please.

  31. And also important to remember by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I see that other threads have mentioned the same thing, but omitted the important part: Seaquest. Jonathan Brandis.

    What a terrible waste of a young twink. I don't know what awful social circles drove him to suicide, but he had a few good years left in him spreading his man dressing into mouths and across faces.

  32. Well by Niscenus · · Score: 1

    It was technically accurate, and besides, we renamed Uranus to Urectum to get around that stupid joke.

    --
    "Yeah...it was the numbers that were irrational, not the murderous cult of vegetarians...." -- Hippasus of Metapontum
  33. Always wanted the model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Aurora made a plastic model kit of Sealab III. It came out when I was 10. I desperately wanted it but never could manage to save up enough. Probably just as well, as at that point my kit building skills wouldn't have done it justice.

    http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/SEALAB%20III%20PAGE.htm

  34. I loved that show by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Loved that show, Roy Scheider was great in it.

  35. favorite part by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My favorite part of the book was when Murphy got stuck under the Bebop Cola machine.

    1. Re:favorite part by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I liked the one where Sealab blew up at the end.

  36. My dad was an aquanaut by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since my parents divorced when I was five, my father taught marine biology in a different city and died in a car accident in 1976, I didn't know him all that well. I do, however, remember getting a sweatshirt from him with the Sealab logo on it. I recall that he lived underwater for 5 or so weeks off the coast of Saint John in the U.S. Virgin Islands. I wore that sweatshirt until it had holes in it and my mother ripped it to shreds in what I took to be an obvious sign of jealous rage. At least she didn't find the Sealab project info folder tucked behind my bookshelf.

    That folder is somewhere in a box in storage. If anyone's interested I could find it, scan the contents and put it online.

  37. I shall remember it... by kkaos · · Score: 1

    ...with a can of Mingus Dew! Bizarro!

  38. The Abyss by LanMan04 · · Score: 1

    A blowout in the space-station can be plugged with duct tape (from the inside)... a blowout in an undersea habitat at 100' depth is considerably harder to deal with.

    When the submarine floods at near the beginning of the movie (obviously more than 100' down, but still)...I have never been so scared in my entire movie-going life. There's something very, very terrifying about drowning in enclosed spaces...

    And how about when the two main characters are deciding who gets the dry suit as their submersible fills up with water? God damn....

    --
    With the first link, the chain is forged.