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Ask Slashdot: Tech Manufacturers With Better Labor Practices?
First time accepted submitter srs5694 writes "In light of the recent flood of stories about abysmal labor practices at Foxconn and other Chinese factories that produce most of the tech products we consume, the question arises: Who makes motherboards, plug-in cards, cell phones, and other devices WITHOUT relying on labor practices that are just one rung above slave labor? If I want to buy a new tech gadget, from whom can I buy it without ethical qualms?"
Probably no one these days. Either components, or parts are made in china in some form or another. Even down to the base layer PCB. Though it's getting even worse than that, China is getting too "expensive" to operate in. And they're moving out to other 3rd world countries.
Om, nomnomnom...
we offer a full line of consumer and professional electronics, athletic apparel, and soy products, all officially certified by the retchdog institute for unicorns and sunshine to be completely free of whatever it is you find objectionable. our modest markup of 1200% is necessary to ensure that only the finest managers, assistant managers, and assistants to assistant managers are hired from a competitive field of my friends and extended family.
"They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
There's no such thing. Corporations aren't in the business of creating products in an ethical manner. They're in the business of making money by using the cheapest parts and labor possible.. If they could employ slaves, and get away with it, they would.
From open-source hardware communities?
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
Money talks, and we're all guilty in this rat race to the bottom for the lowest cost. When robotics and automation get good enough, even Foxconn exploited workers will be out of work. We're in the middle of a transition to full or almost fully robotic manufacturing, give it a few years, no one will have a job expect robot builders and service men to maintain them.
This is about as useful as asking who doesn't rely on semi-slave labor practices during the industrialization phase of the UK or US (no vacations, Pinkerton detective agency, strikebreaking, pittance wages, etc.).
Look, this phase is messy, but necessary.
They can't just start out with a "services" economy all styling each others' hair.
They have to go through this phase, and it's certainly a step up from the near-starvation they had in the countryside. Then wages go up, slowly, but surely. Before you know it, Chinese will be asking about organic certification before they deign to go to work for a company.
I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
Fair labor practices are not something that takes care of itself via an Invisible Hand, be it that of Capitalism or of God. So long as the playing field tells the players that they can outsource slave labor, or even just significantly unfair labor (folks with nothing like 1st ammendment rights), then all players that chose not to do so will quickly lose and cease to exist. The only way to solve the problem (that I'm thinking of right now in full on rhetoric mode) is to have better national standards of who we do business with in the global international trade community. Put standards in place, and make it profitable for international actors to meet the improved standards. But as can be evidenced by opening your eyes in the morning and looking at the world, there will be a lot of political pressure against that path. But hopefully one day the incessant light - fueled by real freedom of speech and the press- shining on exploitive employers/slavers, will cause things to move in the right direction. I hope.
I work in China. It is worth noting that some of the conditions at Foxconn, while terrible by Western standards, are normal here.
A Chinese friend worked as a waitress. She thought $400 a month (in a culture where there are no tips) was excellent money. Most meals and a bunk in a shared apartment provided. No heat, at a latitude where frost is moderately common.
In at 9 am to do cleaning, work until after lunch, sleep in the afternoon, start again at 4:30 and work until closing which was usually about 11 but if customers wanted to stay later, some waitresses would have to stay until 2 or 3. No extra money for that. She got two days a month off, and thought that was generous, but a "day off" meant coming in at 4:30 instead of in the morning.
That doesn't excuse it. If slavery is required to make cell phones at a reasonable price then we'll have to do without.
"I pity the man who wants a coat so cheap that the man or woman who produces the cloth will starve in the process." -- Benjamin Harrison 23rd President
Sorry, corporate overlord here. Slaves require room, board, clothes, etc. provided for them. It doesn't come free. It's much much better now underpaying non-slaves, as people line up to replace them.
Keep complaining though, but make sure not to change your lifestyle at all. Because that works.
I have this hookup in Napa Valley which supplies me with free-range electronics. It comes from a commune where they manufacture phones and laptops using sustainable, cruelty-free paleo techniques. Their R&D division is an ayuhuasca hut.
it has never been necessary. there is nothing about the manufacture of electronics, or anything else, that requires
1. not paying wages
2. raping employees
3. dumping toxic waste into drinking water
4. 80 hour work weeks
etc etc etc. there are ways to produce goods without any of these things. the most productive nation on earth in the 20th century was the united states, and it was largely unionized labor with labor rights and relatively high wages. the only people who think 'slavery = prodcutivity' are people who think the old south was a nice place.
There are UL, CSA and CE marks which go on equipment which convey "This product was tested and found to be reasonably safe". There could also be a mark which goes in the product documentation and on the nameplate which is recognisable by consumers who are concerned about exploitation of workers. The safety marks require bi-annual inspections of the factory and also the submission of objective evidence that the product was manufactured with all the safety critical components in place. The same thing could be done with the supply chain for a procut all the way up to final assembly similar to what has been done with RoHS
Maybe the EU could incorporate this requirement right into the existing CE mark. If you then wanted to sell your product in the EU, you would have to prove that it was manufactured in a way which did not exploit workers throughout the entire supply chain. This would never happen in the US, though, as the Corps control the government there, and there is a culture of only caring about the price and not about the workers who made the product.
We have yet to have a commie president. Most of them could be considered socialists though.
Stay negative.
Except that alternative is worse for the workers, who already have the option of not working at those factories and, funnily enough, they don't actually prefer it.
Your solution helps your moral guilty at their expense. For shame.
http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/smokey.html
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Depending on your standard there is probably none. I have spent a lot of time in China over the last couple of years and have visited quite a few factories. The working conditions vary of course but general the higher quality the product the better the factory is made in. I guess the attention to details that make a better product are also more like to make a better work environment. The quality of our product is our reputation which is why we now have our own factory built to first world standards. We also pay our staff well above market value. In return for a better work environment and pay we make clear to our employees that we expect them to take the quality of their work seriously. The result is can produce a quality product at a good price. Of course if we were making high volume low margin products that might not be possible.
The catch is we don't make all the parts, but deal with factories that do and they in turn deal with other factories of which we have no idea of the their standards. The factories I have visited have been better than I had expected but most would be borderline by first world standards with hardest thing I have seen being the employees who work their whole shift standing. I couldn't do that. Often the heating and cooling is substandard and safety standards are like stepping back 30 years in time. I imagine myself doing their work and in most cases it would be no worse than the kind for work I did part time in my youth. While the work conditions are not great they are not so bad I feel guilty about buying Chinese products. Of course there may be many far worse places I have not seen yet.
The pay on the other hand is probably a issue. I don't know how much the average worker gets but I suspect it is often unethically low. That is a result of our race to bottom on prices because at the end of the day given two similar products most people will buy the cheaper one and you follow that down the supply chain you will find that is the cheapest labor force.
There is an irony here that over the 6 years since I first visited China the average person's position has improved. For example my first trip bicycles were the most common transport, now it is electric scooters. With wages rising and work conditions improving China is now loosing it competitive edge over other 3rd world countries who's peoples have not seen any improvement.
If it makes you feel any better, the Chinese feel the same way about air travel. They only want to spend as little as possible. This known fact is backed up by a little known domestic airline inside China called SSS. It's the largest and fastest growing. I've taken several flights. You get a single bottle of water and all meals are bought on the plane. Halfway through the flight, the flight attendants will walk down the isle with a cart advertising all sorts of crap to sell. As an American, I find that to be some funny shit going on. It's like they're owned and operated by the Ferengi.
Life is not for the lazy.
You don't need unlimited time or money, you need to be well organized, know your needs precisely and be willing to learn and work hard.
I run a small artisan bakery, and I not only build the shop from scratch, but I have also made all the equipment I need myself - including mixers, a rather hi-tech production line including a kneeder, dough laminator, rather complex dough proofer, shaper with corresponding loaders. I myself manage to produce about 500-600 items for about half a day, most of it long-rise bread. My ovens even report stuff on Twitter for my customers.
Not only is everything DIY (including the cast aluminium boxes for the electronics), it is also cheaper than any alternative with similar capabilities and capacity I've been able to source. And it was all made in my backyard, with hand tools from recycled materials over a year, including the learning. I had never touched a shovel, a saw, a router, a milling machine or a soldering iron before that.
If you want, you can do it, the problem is everyone wants to be a manager, and nobody wants to do the hard work.
There's no such thing. Corporations aren't in the business of creating products in an ethical manner. They're in the business of making money by using the cheapest parts and labor possible.
Emphasize "possible". "Possible" includes behavior acceptable to consumers.
Sweat shops and outsourcing are driven by consumer preferences. Namely the consumer's preference for the absolute lowest price regardless of all other considerations. It is a classic tragedy of the commons situation.
Corporate greed does *not* inevitably lead to sweat shops and outsourcing. Of primary importance to corporations are sales, and sales are determined by consumers. Outsourcing and sweat shops are only possible if there is consumer indifference, if employing such methods will offend customers and result in lost sales then the "greed" motivation says do not employ such methods.
Corporate greed actually inevitably leads to satisfying consume demands at the lowest possible cost *and* consistent with consumer expectations. Consumers are actually in control of the methods employed by corporations.
Nokia used to make a lot of components in Finland, Romania etc. but after recent troubles, closed down the factories and moved to Asia.
Making of N9 Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqxYiXtzKd0&feature=player_embedded
... The only way to solve the problem (that I'm thinking of right now in full on rhetoric mode) is to have better national standards of who we do business with in the global international trade community. Put standards in place, and make it profitable for international actors to meet the improved standards. But as can be evidenced by opening your eyes in the morning and looking at the world, there will be a lot of political pressure against that path ...
Yes and no. Your logic is flawed because it is government based, based on political pressure. The true solution is to have a consumer based solution, to leverage corporate greed. To have consumers make conscious decisions to pick products more inline with their ideals rather than whatever has the lowest price tag. Corporate greed seeks sales not lowest cost production. Low cost production does no good if consumers reject your products to do your production methods.
I looked at two full HD resolution computer monitors last week. A Viewsonic made in China and a Samsung made in Mexico. They seemed to be basically equivalent, but the Viewsonic was about US$30 cheaper. After considering that Mexico is a neighbor and that the Mexican government is friendlier I decided to go with the Samsung. I do not mean to suggest that Mexico is perfect with respect to labor practices, just less objectionable. Sometimes that is the only option available.
That said, the internet has made if far easier to find Made in USA goods than ever before. You are no longer limited to what your local brick and mortar carries.
http://www.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/
That 5% is a pure guess. It could be 50% for all you know.
There's also a difference between shutting down and finding the sales prospects - as prices go up, fewer people can buy - make that line of business unattractive to the point where they get out of it. Consolidation, monopoloy...
Economics is fiendishly difficult to control.
Advice: on VPS providers
The 5% I mentioned was not a guess at all. We had a /. article on how little money goes into Chinese manufacturing a while back. Here's the link to the slashdot story and here's a direct link to the article.
It shows that Chinese labor costs only make up about 2% of the cost of the iPad. We could triple their salaries and have prices rise by only around 5%. Obviously it would vary by device, but no way would it be 50%.
Why go so far afield to other countries when we have the same kind of thing right here in the good old USA? What about these legal and illegal immigrants working on pesticide laced industrial farms? How about the workers at megacorporation slaughterhouses and food processing plants? Are their working conditions really that much better than those at Foxconn in China? Is a Mexican working all day in the hot California sun for minimum wages and living in a migrant worker shack that much better off than a Chinese factory worker? Media like the New York Times are hypocritical to the nth degree. They should start their muckraking investigations right here at home, before they start singling out one particular extremely successful tech company for their hypocritical tirades.
A sufficiently advanced simulation is indistinguishable from reality.
Working conditions in Taiwan 10 or 15 years ago were much better than China today IMHO. In 1997, the Taiwanese had already had their first truly democratic elections, working conditions were tolerable mostly everywhere, there was already a national medical insurance plan and some social security in place, there were rather strict labor safety laws, environment pollution laws, etc.
apparently it's not so much the minimal labor wages that make China attractive to manufacturing, but the supply of trained engineers to manage the operation. Apple alone needs hundreds of engineers to supervise the thousands of workers.
http://www.tuaw.com/2012/01/22/why-apples-products-are-designed-in-california-but-assembled/
Let's save all of those poor asian wage slaves by boycotting products from asia. That'll help 'em!
If I wanted a sig I would have filled in that stupid box.
NSFW for language
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From their own Blog @ RaspberryPi.org (it's older then the main page displays so on the bottom click "older posts" of course):
I’d like to draw attention to one cost in particular that really created problems for us in Britain. Simply put, if we build the Raspberry Pi in Britain, we have to pay a lot more tax. If a British company imports components, it has to pay tax on those (and most components are not made in the UK). If, however, a completed device is made abroad and imported into the UK – with all of those components soldered onto it – it does not attract any import duty at all. This means that it’s really, really tax inefficient for an electronics company to do its manufacturing in Britain, and it’s one of the reasons that so much of our manufacturing goes overseas. Right now, the way things stand means that a company doing its manufacturing abroad, depriving the UK economy, gets a tax break. It’s an absolutely mad way for the Inland Revenue to be running things, and it’s an issue we’ve taken up with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.
So we have had to make the pragmatic decision and look to Taiwan and China for our manufacturing, at least for this first batch. We are still working hard on investigating UK possibilities; at the moment, we’re investigating an option which would mean that all the Model As (whose demand we expect to be much lower than that of the Model Bs) will be built in the UK, and at the moment that’s looking quite do-able, although it’s not as efficient economically as doing it in Asia. I’ll fill you in on how that goes later on.
Really? Britain's economy is in worse shape than any other European country?
Britain has the lowest unemployment rate in the EU, and a GDP per capita higher than the majority of EU countries.
Britain still has a AAA rating on its sovereign debt, France is about to be downgraded, and let's not talk about Italy or even Greece.
Manufacturing output of Britain increased last year despite a recession in the rest of the economy.
Britain is having to bale out other EU countries like Ireland. Nobody is having to bale out Britain.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
Did you think that you knew what you were talking about?
Foxconn annual profit (2010) is $2.2 billion.
Foxconn employees (2010) is 920+ thousand.
That means annual profit per employee is $2391.
Lets suppose they give the entire profit away to the employees. Thats $199 per month, or $6.55 per day, per employee.
Are you still all smug, or do you now have a lump in your throat because of how ignorant that you now realize that you are? I wonder. The right thing to do would be to have that lump... thats if you have a conscience.. do you have a conscience, or is this fake caring that you do enough for you?
"His name was James Damore."
I could go on. Burberry is a cheapo Chinese knockoff nowadays, but Barbour isn't. You can buy just about all your clothing needs made in the UK from our local farm co-operative, who tend to be a bit patriotic - shoes are the main problem, and people are starting to make them again as the Chinese start to want real British goods. Most of my clothes are made in the English Midlands or in Scotland; I wouldn't touch cheap imports, but often the price difference is quite small.
Despite the worst our banks can do, there is a surprising amount of UK manufacturing and it is mostly upper market. Some of it is quite old; there is a company very close to us that has been in business continually since the late 1700s. We have always been quite good at this; we are also crap at the low end, because anybody with any pride in their work naturally wants to work for a reputable company.
Incidentally, "The IT Crowd" is an arts graduate's fantasy of what IT is like. We have plenty of them available for export...they seem to do well in the USA.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Yes, triple their wages, causing massive inflation in China making the poor in China even worse off. You cannot dump wealth into an economy like that. The Russians tried it after the fall of the Soviey unionand the result was so disasterous that they've ended up with an oligarchy and had to be grateful that a few people sucked up all the money because the economy was a mess.
I'm a Russian who grew up during early 90s, when economic reforms happened. I can assure you that "triple their wages" was not involved, nor was "dumping wealth into an economy".
The reason why we ended up with an oligarchy is because we rushed to privatize as much of state property as we could, so that the magical "invisible hand' would do its work and bring us all prosperity. Turned out that when you just sell stuff to highest bidder, with few checks, and rampant corruption, it ends up mostly in the hands of a very few people who then form the new financial elite, and proceed to exploit and wreck the rest of the population economically.