Slashdot Mirror


Australia's Telstra Requires Fibre Customers To Use Copper Telephone

daria42 writes "Progress is happening rapidly in Australia, with the country's government continuing to roll out a nation-wide fibre network. However, the country's major telco Telstra doesn't appear to have quite gotten the message. Releasing its first National Broadband Network fibre broadband plans today, the telco stipulated that fibre customers will still be forced to make phone calls over the telco's existing copper network. Yup, that's right — fibre to people's houses, but phone calls over the copper network. Progress."

38 of 217 comments (clear)

  1. Typical by SultanCemil · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Some cynical people might even suspect a plot here - our right wing party would love to bury the NBN and have been claiming that it'll be more expensive than ADSL services - perhaps Telstra wants to give them more ammunition, and muddy the waters at the same time?

    --
    Cemil.
    1. Re:Typical by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      They have a business motive to do this.

      Imagine if phone calls could be as free and open as email. If you could just pick up a phone, call anyone anywhere in the world on any device for as long as you want at no cost.

      It's real. There are open VoIP protocols that allow this such as SIP and IAX. If they became popular the POTS and cellular telephony industries would be destroyed, and those are massive cash cows. Have you seen the profit margins telcos bring in for these services? In some case, such as SMS, they're basically charging you money for an infinite resource that only requires initial setup costs.

      So those open VoIP technologies will be fought tooth and nail by the telcos. They are an existing, clear existential threat to their industry. But they'll gladly take the practically nonexistent operating costs of VoIP for relatively insane fees, in the form of things like Vonage VoIP service. That would be the best of both worlds, they'd love that.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    2. Re:Typical by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So what? It's not like copper for phone calls has any disadvantages. Quality will be about the same unless wideband VoIP is deployed (almost no one has done that), and it's better for safety since the copper phone lines are powered by the CO, which usually has multiple redundant backup power supplies. If your home's power goes out - you can call 911 with copper but not with VoIP.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    3. Re:Typical by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 2

      12 hours? Pretty pitiful - I have routinely been in situations with extended power outages (48-72 hours) where the phone line worked the whole time.

      This wasn't even in the boonies where I live now - this was in middle-upper class Central Jersey.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
  2. Could make sense by NFN_NLN · · Score: 5, Informative

    Fiber requires external power for the lasers.
    Traditional phones lines are powered by the telco so they'll work during a standard blackout.

    1. Re:Could make sense by miaDWZ · · Score: 5, Informative

      Traditional phones lines are powered by the telco so they'll work during a standard blackout.

      All NBN endpoints have a backup battery to allow phones to continue to work for a good few hours even in a power outage.

    2. Re:Could make sense by NFN_NLN · · Score: 3, Informative

      All NBN endpoints have a backup battery to allow phones to continue to work for a good few hours even in a power outage.

      The telco (unless it is third world) will have massive diesel generators (and a stock pile of diesel) to keep things operational in an emergency. As long as there is electricity or diesel the phones should continue to work.

    3. Re:Could make sense by Cassini2 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Power failures can last several days. Parts of the north eastern U.S. and Ontario have been blacked out for several days at a time. Montreal was hit by an ice-storm that caused them to lose power for several days too.

      It doesn't happen often, but the problem with big disasters is that they are big. Emergency equipment still has to run.

      Copper phone line work well as a backup.

    4. Re:Could make sense by miaDWZ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The telco (unless it is third world) will have massive diesel generators (and a stock pile of diesel) to keep things operational in an emergency. As long as there is electricity or diesel the phones should continue to work.

      That's true. Although, in reality I think 9/10 households will be using a cordless phone which will be useless in a power outage, regardless to how you're hooked into the phone network. Speaking of which, can you even buy non-cordless phones these days?

    5. Re:Could make sense by NFN_NLN · · Score: 2

      At least that is how it is suppose to work ..Unless of course the guy who architects the backup system uses an electric pump to push diesel from the tanks to the generator... and that pump is tied into the standard power grid :)

    6. Re:Could make sense by psergiu · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Mod Gradparent Up !

      In some magical land, all endpoints have battery backup. In Romania, for example, they don't - a backup battery must be replaced every 3 years or so - which can become expensive. I refused to allow the local telco to install FTTH in my apartment building as all the cooper landlines (powered by the large battery pack + diesel generator at the CO) would have been replaced by VoIP over that fibre. Lousy audio quality, no battery backup, end-point equipment usually locks up during brown-outs. I'm ok with slower ADSL that works 24/7.

      Way to go, Telestra ! They still have some smart people in charge.

      --
      1% APY, No fees, Online Bank https://captl1.co/2uIErYq Don't let your $$$ sit in a no-interest acct.
    7. Re:Could make sense by jaymz666 · · Score: 2

      Whether they are using a cordless one doesn't mean they don't have corded as a backup? I know we do.

    8. Re:Could make sense by deek · · Score: 3, Informative

      Fibre based phones requires power to devices on both ends. Copper based phones can (and are) powered by the telco on their end.

      So those massive diesel generators aren't going to be much use in an emergency, for a fibre network.

    9. Re:Could make sense by definate · · Score: 2

      In Romania

      I work with some Romanian developers (and I'm Australian), and our infrastructure in this regard, is a LOT better.

      --
      This is my footer. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    10. Re:Could make sense by Capsaicin · · Score: 5, Funny

      If ice storm knock down the power line, it will knock down the phone line too.

      It just goes to show the cavalier attitude of the Labor government that they haven't adequately planned for vast tracts of Australia being taken out by ice storms.

      --
      Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
    11. Re:Could make sense by jonwil · · Score: 2

      The only reason I have a land-line is because I have to have one to get ADSL. I haven't had a land-line phone hooked up in years and make all my calls on mobile phones.

      In cases of power outages, if I do need to make a phone call for some reason (e.g. to the power company to check on the ETA for power coming back on) I use my mobile (and with one exception during a MASSIVE city-wide storm) I have never had the mobile towers go down even during blackouts.

      And yes I am in Australia and want NBN when it hits my area and will be glad when I can say goodbye to Telstra forever.

    12. Re:Could make sense by viperidaenz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Don't kid yourself. Telstra are doing it for one reason: Money. They have an existing copper network, if it fails to generate revenue it turns into a worthless multi-billion dollar liability that they will still have to maintain year after year.
      Their New Zealand subsidiary, TelstraClear, kicked up a huge fuss about over-building their docsis cable network with a government subsidised national fibre network build. They threw their toys out their cot and threatened to shut up shop and leave the country.
      Last time I was on their cable network you couldn't buy internet services without a $50/month phone line.

    13. Re:Could make sense by atomicthumbs · · Score: 2

      I live in California, in the Bay Area. In 2001, our power went out for a week after a big rainstorm. The telephones worked fine the entire time. We wouldn't have been able to check on my grandparents if we had had one of today's fiber telephones.

      --
      http://pinopsida.com
    14. Re:Could make sense by atomicthumbs · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Should someone really have to buy a very expensive satellite phone + plan, or move somewhere else, because their telephone company wants to replace their (perfectly fine) POTS connection with something that stops working a little while after the power goes out?

      --
      http://pinopsida.com
    15. Re:Could make sense by EdIII · · Score: 4, Informative

      They won't operate the same at all.

      If "copper telephones" are anything like what we have in the US, a corded telephone connected to the wall receives all the power it needs to operate from the CO (central office) in the street. In this situation the telco does not need to concern itself about any equipment on-premises. As long as the customer has a standard cordless telephone that is enough to place a call.

      This is the primary reason why people claim that corded telephones and copper service is the most reliable method of communication in an emergency. Which is true as long as you place zero responsibility on the consumer beyond the possession of a standard telephone required for service.

      The alternative is still fairly cheap, but it requires telcos to actually upgrade. There is no reason that the same battery/diesel backups in the CO's can't be used as a backup for fiber.

      What is not solved is that you now need battery backup on-premises. That is not an insurmountable problem. Most cable companies in the US have been offering VOIP service for years with equipment that has built-in battery backups. It varies, but I have seen VOIP only equipment that allows a standard phone connection, and cablemodem/VOIP combos that do both. In any case, $50 at any electronics store will get you a battery backup capable of a few hours with the load from a base station for a cordless telephone.

      The biggest challenge in the US has been providing emergency phone call support. For quite some time VOIP services offered by the cable companies did not have the capability of connecting you to the correct PSAP and transmitting the correct information. To my knowledge that has been largely solved. The major VOIP providers I deal with have been offering e911 services for almost two years and I have been able to offer 911 on any VOIP desk phone in any branch office with only minor coding efforts.

      I don't know how much money the telcos would gain by getting rid the COs entirely. I am betting that they are staying on copper for telephone because it is cheaper than upgrading all the COs to fiber and providing customers on-premises equipment that they have never had to provide before.

      Also remember, that battery/diesel backups don't last forever anyways. That goes for cell phone towers too. Any major disaster with sustained power outages for more than a day or two is going to see severe impact in service for all communications.

    16. Re:Could make sense by Mr0bvious · · Score: 4, Informative

      Indeed - sorry I must have been half asleep (perhaps fully asleep) when I made that post - for some reason I thought the OP I replied too was claiming that the cordless phones will be useless in a power outage when the fibre replaces the copper - obviously upon rereading that post I was actually in fierce agreement with the OP..

      I'll get back in my box now..

      ps, I'm an Australian and pretty much everyone I know uses their mobile (cell) phone as their primary voice contact device - we use our copper lines for our ADSL connections... I don't even have a handset plugged into my copper outlet.

      The rental on a copper line from Telstra is over $30 a month - all we get for that is the ability to make charged phone calls - I make none, so I pay $30 a month to Telstra for my phone line just to get ADSL from my ISP over. My ISP charges me $50 a month for a 100GB of data over a ADSL 2 connection over that Telstra copper - I can only acheive a very poor 1 - 2Mb over that very poor and under maintained expensive Telstra copper and I'm in a nice dense suburban area. So I end up paying over $80 a month for a poor 1 - 2Mb connection.

      I can go 'naked' - that's the term for having a internet connection without paying Telstra for the copper - you pay the ISP instead, and the ISP install hardware in the Telstra exchange to handle their own back haul. But this saves only $60 a year as the ISP need to pay telstra a portion still, hardly worth it for the down side... Basically Telstra applies a tax on the entire copper system, that I'm sure I've paid for now at least 10 times over.. Its a hideous monopoly that I can't wait to see the back of.

      --
      Never happened. True story.
    17. Re:Could make sense by commlinx · · Score: 2

      Well the TFA is about Telstra not wanting to replace their perfectly fine POTS connection, presumably for that very reason. I was commenting that even with the good old POTS system they expect 100% uptime and immediate fault resolution. In remote areas much of the fiber will run above ground, as does most residential mains power in Australia. About 90% of my local power outages are a result of vehicle accidents, how fast can they expect a fiber cable to be replaced when it's 100KM from a major center and services 10 customers?

    18. Re:Could make sense by foniksonik · · Score: 3, Funny

      The other nuts who have backup phones!

      That's their plan. They'll be the only ones able to coordinate their stockpiles of food, water and ammunition. Well other than the military, police and emergency services. They'll be kings for a week at least!

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    19. Re:Could make sense by GrumpyOldMan · · Score: 2

      The telco (unless it is third world) will have massive diesel generators

      I guess suburban USA counts as "3rd world" then.

      I live roughly 100 miles from Washington DC just outside of Richmond, VA. Our power was restored a few days after hurricane Irene last summer. After our power was restored, our internet (and voip phone) was still out. After a while, I realized that it would come on for a few hours, then go off.

      After meeting some neighbors (we'd just moved in 2 weeks before the storm and knew nobody in town), we finally realized that the telcom's local headend was located across a major highway in an area that did not yet have power. The times when we had power were when our neighbors, at their own expense, filled up the tanks on Comcast's diesel generator.

    20. Re:Could make sense by vlm · · Score: 3, Informative

      Speaking of which, can you even buy non-cordless phones these days?

      You have to go to walmart, but they do exist.

      The real problem is you need a copper line that is homerun to a CO not to a SLC hut. SLC hut battery backup is ... not so good, if there is any at all. Supposedly there existed a SLC-96 system 30 years ago that was CO powered off the T-1 repeater supply, but they've only installed fiber SLCs for decades now and the few I've seen the insides of have metered electrical service.

      People who only know a little telecom think every copper line is a home run to the CO. People who worked in telecom know that 20 years ago SLC market penetration was at least 1 in 10 residential lines, and now, I would not be surprised if the majority of copper lines are run to a SLC.

      It does depend on your neighborhood. If there's a homeless panhandler on the sidewalk, thats urban and probably 100 years old and you probably have copper homerun, unless its a "factory to condo conversion" and the telco put a SLC in. If its a "1950s baby boomer house" like mine then its 50/50 and in fact mine is on a SLC (which was a nightmare to get DSL back in ye olden DSL era). If its a modern mcmansion I guarantee the LEC installed a SLC, they're not going to home run copper all they way from each house to the CO.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    21. Re:Could make sense by lazybeam · · Score: 2

      Change to homeline budget. I've been on that and TPG adsl2+ for years. You'll save ~$10 per month with no upfronts or risk. Though I am tempted by the 100mbps cable Telstra now has available in my area (ironically it is cheaper to bundle hfc+pstn than hfc by itself).

      --
      --
      no sig for you. come back one year.
    22. Re:Could make sense by lazybeam · · Score: 2

      Would hail the size of cricket balls during summer count as an "ice storm"?

      Seriously, I've had my colorbond roof damaged by one such storm (just before Xmas 2010). Insurance came to the party, but really the worst that happened was some relatively minor leaks. No problems with power or phone/net. Now I'm like the guy on the ad looking at my new roof! :)

      A year ago there were massive floods, many mobile phone sites lost power and were cut off from deliveries of new fuel, so coverage was reduced. But that was only a few days too, until roads reopened, etc. The cheapest network was out the longest.

      --
      --
      no sig for you. come back one year.
    23. Re:Could make sense by mrchaotica · · Score: 2

      Folks who keep a backup landline for emergencies just posers. The real nuts have ham radios!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    24. Re:Could make sense by afidel · · Score: 2

      Which is more reliable, a centrally managed and maintained redundant bank of batteries in the CO or tens or hundreds of thousands of individual batteries in customer premise equipment? Also which is going to be faster to repair or replace if there is an issue? The only system more reliable than the PSTN is HAM radio. As far as diesel not lasting forever that's true, but CO's and 911 centers are behind only hospitals as far as diesel delivery contracts are concerned and in natural disasters it's not unusual for the local national guard (or equivalent) to be used to help with those deliveries if there is the need.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  3. Really a big deal? by Lev13than · · Score: 3, Insightful

    POTS infrastructure is fully depreciated, lines are self-powered and system is completely compatible with all existing equipment. Even if you put a fibre-based POTS system in every exchange you'd still need to keep the copper running for non-subscribers. Seems like a reasonable trade-off if they are taking the savings and using the capital to accelerate the roll-out of fibre internet.

    Interested to hear from an actual telecom engineer about how hard/expensive it would be to update the exchanges.

    --
    When you have nothing left to burn you must set yourself on fire
    1. Re:Really a big deal? by mcbridematt · · Score: 4, Interesting

      All copper lines in the fibre footprint under the Australian NBN rollout are being decommissioned, the only people who will remain are those getting wireless or satellite broadband services, for POTS usage.

      Some would argue that Telstra, by keeping the copper lines active until forced to decommission them (as is the deal), makes it easier for a future opposition government to scuttle the fibre rollout.

  4. Why not? by mehrotra.akash · · Score: 2

    Copper means no need for converters/change of instruments at client side AND a single power source. If the exchange has power, the phones work
    Fiber needs power at more points

  5. Re:100Mbps with a 200gb cap by bloodhawk · · Score: 2

    The Average Usage even on a lot of large cap plans for those with decent connections in Australia is around 30GB, 10mb connections to 100Mbps is not going to suddenly make 10 times more content available. Sure there are those fringe users that try to download the entire internets porn collection every month, but they really are the minority (even if I do happen to be one of them).

  6. Re:progress by Ghaoth · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I suggest you don't live here. There are many parts of Australia where Telstra is the only supplier. their mandate, aparrt from making money, is to provide communications to all of Austrlaia. Most of the other companies suck in rural and outback areas. It there was an alternative, that would be called competition.

    --
    Nos Morituri te salutamus
  7. Some bits are even older than copper by dbIII · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The Telstra wires are lead with paper insulation in my pit, and it's only a 30 minute walk to the centre of a state capital.
    Because Telstra have a monopoly on some segments and close to a monopoly on others they can mazimise profit by doing as little as possible. They are an evil beast that screws over the customer the way that only a former government body that has picked only the worst aspects of private enterprise can do.

  8. This is Australia calling. by mjwx · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's Telstra, what do you expect. This is the company that has kept regional centres on dialup and whilst giving a RIM-job to major urban centres.

    They have repeatedly been busted for telling other telco's "there are no ports available at X exchange" but then selling Telstra ADSL services from the same supposedly full exchange.

    Do you honestly expect Telstra not to try and screw up the NBN.

    --
    Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    1. Re:This is Australia calling. by Joce640k · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sounds simple enough to me: They have low moral standards and are trying to maximize profits. Welcome to the real world.

      (This applies to the summary too...)

      --
      No sig today...
  9. 9/10 households by 6031769 · · Score: 2

    If you believe the stats which are constantly flung at us, maybe 90% of adults have a mobile phone. Certainly, if I were concerned about the reliability of a fibre link to the premises for phone calls I would be using mobile as a backup, not copper.

    --
    Burns: We're building a casino!
    McAllister: Arrr. Give me 5 minutes.